The true impact of poaching.....

[DILLIGAF]

I just finished reading the "Cuffs and Collars" section if Michigan Outdoor News. Here is a breakdown of ONE WEEKS worth of poaching busts; 60 cases of poaching, 22 deer poached, 11 Turkeys poached and one bear poached (PS: poached, is not a cooking method). THAT'S JUST ONE WEEKS WORTH OF POACHING FROM ONE PUBLICATION!

My questions are; How many poachers got away?
What is the real impact on our state's wildlife? Does the DNR take these "unknowns" into consideration when doing the deer counts? Are the fines and punishments for poaching strong enough?

Your thoughts..............

DILLIGAF: i have another question for you . How many deer were killed as a result of crop damage permits ? When i lived in Michigan therw was a tree farm near hasting that came on Mort Neffs Michigan out doors every year it seemend and complained about the amount of deer damamge done by the deer and the DNR would allow them to kill them to reduce the size of the herd. Well me and my brother tried to get permission to hunt on ther eland and they SAID NO WAY !!! I would like to know how many deer are just killed on crop damage permits ?

[Jackone]

Hey Dilligaf, I love your handle. It is the name of my bowling team. I tried to get it here but you had already taken it. Give it back please. :)

[DILLIGAF]

Originally posted by Jackone:
Hey Dilligaf, I love your handle. It is the name of my bowling team. I tried to get it here but you had already taken it. Give it back please. :)

Can't do it Jackone. It's the name of my hunt club and not a bad philosophy on life.

[Joe Archer]

Unfortnately, the majority of poachers get away. The group that owns the parcel next to me has been poaching for years and DNR can not catch them in the act. The no baiting laws may have helped though. They can no longer place a couple tons of bait under the street lights they had installed on either sides of their cabin. Shots used to echo through the night. Hopefully, they will sell and move to a different area now. <----<<<

[This message has been edited by Joe Archer (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Joe Archer]

This year when I was up bow-hunting the rut, I had a ten point cross ten yards to my right. I never did get a shot, but the electricity that was added to the next 5 days was incredible! Just seeing these deer is what makes a hunt. That is what poachers take from each and every one of us! I say, remove their right to hunt and/or own firearms .... forever! <----<<<

[Eastern Yooper]

What does the new 'no-baiting' laws have to do with curbing the night shooting your neighbors used to do?

Seems to me it has always been illegal to: (a) use an artificial light and (b) shoot after hunting hours have closed.

I hope you did the right thing and called the law after hearing those shots..... because crying about it on a computer and hoping the idiots "move someplace else" doesn't help the situation one bit.

All a 'no-baiting' law does is ruin a method enjoyed by the vast majority of law-abiding sportsmen. But as usual, the majority pay the price for a relatively few amount of jerks.

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VEGETARIAN: Indian word meaning 'Bad Hunter'

[boehr]

Poaching still is a problem but the fines have went up a lot since the days of the Mort Neff show. Prior to around 1983 the fine for an illegal deer was normally $100 fine, $30 cost, $100 restitution, 5 days in jail, loss of all hunting for 3 years and the year convicted. Now the normal fine is $200 fine, $100 costs, $1,000 restitution, 5 days, and loss of hunting for 3 years. Do they all get that, NO! Some judges are hard on it, some judges will not even go there. Defense attorneys and judges also look for loopholes in the laws to allow poachers to get off. An example is, back in the early 80's there were two different charges for poaching deer. One was, "Illegally kill a deer" and the other was "Willful illegal killing a deer" The first was used by an officer when it was thought that the hunter made a mistake that the officer wanted to charge him with a lsser offense. The wilfull was used for shooting deer at night etc. It got to the point that judges would not take the "wilfull" charge at all so hence, the illegal deer charge came so that all got hammered the same as "wilfull". Now judges find other ways as to drop the charge to a much lesser charge or refuses to charge restitution to some defendants.

There are far fewer summer crop damage permits issued now then there was a one time with the block permit system. As far as people getting permission to hunt those lands with damage, I understand but it is impossible for force a private land owner to allow people to hunt private property and I for one would not even want to get into a situation of attempting to force the opening of private land. It's not going to happen.

The Wildlife biologists do take into consideration an esimate of the numbers of poached animals when setting seasons. Just as they do car/deer accidents, winter kill and everything else.

Yes, the majority of poachers do get away but, it does not have to be that an officer must witness the action. If a citizen sees poaching activity and has enough information and is willing to testify to what they saw, an investigation is done and the choice become the prosecutor's if a warrant for that illegal act in issued.

Baiting does have something to do with curbing night shooting from camps. If you don't draw the deer in at night to see them under the light you can't shoot them. There were very few if any of those camps that used that same bait pile near the camp to hunt during the day.

[Eastern Yooper]

Analogy: Some camps use their baitpiles to shoot deer from at night. Therefore, curbing baiting for everyone is a good way of solving this problem.

Analogy: Some people hammered nails into trees and littered on public property during the course of building blinds; therefore, severly restricting blinds for everyone is a good way of solving this problem.

Analogy: Some people use artificial lights to shine deer and illegally kill them. Therefore, severly restricting shining for everyone is a good way of solving the problem.

Analogy: Some people show wanton disregard for our natural resources while using an ATV and rampantly tear-up the countryside. Therefore, severely restricting ATV use for everyone is a good way of solving the problem.

Analogy: A 6 year-old finds a stolen gun in a crack-house, takes it to school and murders a classmate. Therefore, mandating trigger-locks for all gun owners is a good way of preventing similar tragedies in the future.

Interesting.

[boehr]

You must life a secluded life Yooper. You know the baiting issue has nothing to do with the camps, TB and the debate that goes on within this site and all over for years.

I want you to tell me what purpose does anyone need to be out shining after 11 pm anyway. There is no legal hunting method you can use to locate game with a light to shoot. Take the kids out to show them deer, they are normally sleeping by 11 pm and you can do that prior to 11 pm. You want to scout for deer, go into the woods during the day, you'll learn more.

Blinds, you talk in circles, you better go back and read all my other posts for the many causes!

ATV's, get off the kick about some people, a lot of people. You obviously just want to shine at night, hunt over a truck load of bait, build a shack on the public's property and call it your own, riding your ATV to get there. Yes, I have trigger locks on everyone of my guns because I want to. If you don't that's fine maybe you are immune from a terrible thing happening to you. Your choice!

Sorry those arn't analogies, they are facts. Your analogies would be because you don't do something, there should be no law. Well wake up, not everybody is even close to being like you.

[This message has been edited by boehr (edited 12-02-2000).]

[Pat Eddinger]

boehr,
Is there really no way to restrict the number of bloc permits to those land owners that don't allow hunters access?As an incentive somehow?There's gotta be a way.
You know the area where I'm at,and know about the huge land holdings and leases where no hunting is allowed,yet the bloc permits get passed out and from there sometimes sold to folks.I know that's illeagal!Max Hanley(The deceased!)used to poach the cornfields all summer on one of the places closed to hunters,and took quite a few Huge bucks.It's just a shame that we have the solution to the farmers problem and middle ground can't be found or forced.
I disagree with some of your opinions,but I would like to thank you and the rest in the enforcement side for what you folks do.
Idiots like Max Hanley take more than just deer away from us.Pat

[Eastern Yooper]

boehr:

Obviously you and I are going to keep knocking-heads on some of these issues. I live a secluded life? What a self-righteous, condescending thing to say.

Folks: Its obvious that boehr is in favor of more laws to further choke the sportsmen of this great state. And therein lies the difference between my opponent boehr, and me:

I believe the men and women of this state are not staying-up late at night trying to find ways to violate. Apparantly boehr does, and he feels he is walking the thin blue line between maintaining order and outright anarchy in our state so far as hunting and fishing is concerned. I think if he was driving a State Police car, he'd be ticketing folks for doing 71 mph on the interstate.
I'll sum it up like this: He trusts the governemnt and more laws; I trust you.

I believe the DNR should help people enjoy the outdoors, not control and dominate them.

:)

[stelmon]

i wonder the cost is for shooting a deer and not tagging it and then taking what u need and leave the carcass out there...I found 2 out while I was hutnig...boehr can u help on this one..Thanks

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Stelmon, the only one.
Keep those bullets flying and reels screamen

[mjp]

Before I get harpooned for this let me start by saying that I am in no way infavor poaching. That said, lets look at the numbers cited. 22 deer +11 turkeys + 1 bear = 34 not 60. Given tha thousands of folks that are in the woods this time of year I don't think that 34 illegally taken critters is all that bad, not acceptable but not too bad. I think that the vast majority of people in the woods are ethical law abiding folks and that the people who shoot deer with lights etc. are the exception. Now for the good part, I also think that the DNR works on the assumption that most people who venture afield are going to eventually violate. I'm not going to shoot any critter with a light and the 11pm rule assumes if I decide to go out some night after 11pm I may not be able to control myself. If I'm on my way home from work at midnight and see a good buck cross the road and I stop to put my headlights on him for a second I'm a violater, I don't think so. I also have a feed pile under a light off my deck, if there comes a rule against this because somebody shoots a deer from the house I guess I will be a violator because I will not stop because of some dumb ass. I think that many of the DNR rules are there because in the past people have acted in unethical ways and we are all being made to pay for it. The hardcore game hogs are not stopped by any of these rules, only the law abiding of us will. I'm afraid that sooner or later we will get to a point that all of us will be labeled a violator because of attempts by the DNR to regulate morality upon those who enjoy the outdoors.

[boehr]

stelmon...the cost for an untagged deer is entirely up to the judge in the county where the violation happened. By law it is suppose to be a minumim of $50 and a maximum of $500 and 90 days, where in between that, it's up to the judge.

Yooper...the government is the people, the same ones you and I both vote for or don't you vote? You turn things around to make a point that really doesn't apply, and make statements and assumptions that you indicate I say that is an outright lie. I will not lower myself to your level by making personal references about you simply because I don't know you, I do know just a few of your opinions.

The DNR does not assume that everyone will violate sooner or later. It has always been the DNR's position that only about 2% of the people poach. I still believe that. Unfortunately, that 2% keeps CO's busy enough and thankfully we have a majority of the hunters out there that help us. Of course that leaves a few that are not poachers but they either don't care or don't want to become involved.

[mjp]

Is it right them to pass rules that keep 98% of us from engaging in activiies which we would enjoy (point your headlights at a nice buck that crossed the road on your way back home from your deer stand) because of two %?

wrong place

[This message has been edited by sportsmaster (edited 12-03-2000).]

[boehr]

mjp...I will explain some points to you about shining that that yooper always leaves out. First, all shining laws are passed by the legislature, not the DNR. The DNR can make certain rules that effect seasons, limits etc., but many of those so called rules are confused with legislative action. Shining is one of those activities that can only be changed by the legislature. The DNR can and is frequently asked to provide information about shining and can support, stay nuetral, oppose, etc., legislation that effects the resources or hunters, etc., of this state. Sometimes, the DNR can make requests to the legislature for certain laws.

As far as shining, there is a current bill (SB0388) in the legislature that the DNR does not support without changes as currently written, to restrictive and many requirements are basically un-enforceable. This bill is a result of the public writing to their legislative representative and that senator or represenative agreed with those people and introduced a bill to change the law. That is how the first shining bill came into effect also.

Here is the link to the shining bill as well as other bills that are proposed. It would be wise for all of us that have an interest in what laws are being passed to keep an eye on these type of things. This link also provides the pros and cons of the bills and the reason why the bills are introduced.
http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/legislation/

[This message has been edited by boehr (edited 12-03-2000).]

[Eastern Yooper]

boehr states, "I will not lower myself to your level by making personal references.....". This flies in the wake of you making the arrogant, assanine remark that, "You must live a secluded life, Yooper". boehr, I took offense at that remark and the implications you made. What I thought would be a civil debate you instead chose to make personal. YOU drew first blood on this one. And FYI: I too, wear a uniform, carry a gun, and work for the state. I have attended college and have a degree in Law Enforcement. I have hunted and fished in this state for over 20 years and have never received a ticket for a hunting, fishing, ATV/snowmobile, or other outdoor-related activity.

Get off your high-horse. Your opinion is not the only one that matters here. You made reference that, "Thankfully, most people don't think like you do" and I will disagree. You have about 7-8 loyal followers here that are quick to blow sunshine on you at every opportunity. I think they need to get off your socks, but whatever. This mornings count of registered users stands at 842; I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of these folks share in my disgust at the myriad of laws the DNR has imposed upon us. Perhaps some of these people are intimidated by you; I don't know. I'm not, and I will speak my mind as I see fit.

You state that the government sets the laws and we vote for those people in office: Interesting. A FACT that boehr ALWAYS omits is that the Director AND the NRC are APPOINTED, not elected. BOTH parties have the abilities to set seasons, methods, limits, etc. WITHOUT legislative approval. Ever hear of an 'Administrative Rule, and does anyone remember proposal "G"? Hello.... HELLO? Proposal G gave the NRC the SOLE ability to regulate hunting, fishing, and trapping in Michigan. One of the yahoos currently on the NRC is a former restaurant entrepeneur.... thats his RAVING qualifications to dominate the sportsmen of this state. Did we elct those folks on the NRC? Hell no! They're buddies with out illustrious governor. Once again, boehr has demonstrated his ignorance.

Furthermore, one thing that stands out in all your posts is how obtuse you are in your thinking. For instance, your reference that "nobody needs to be shining after 11 p.m.". Just because YOU don't want to, doesn't mean that everyone should be prohibited. What reason, you ask? Apparantly you are unaware that not everyone works a Monday-Friday, 8-5 job. Believe it or not, some folks actually work until the wee hours of the morning. Perhaps these folks would want to shine some fields on their way home but OH! chalk-up another shining violation by some damn poachers! Gimme a break.

In closing, I cannot understand why the DNR remains so blind to the fact that they are TOTALLY out of touch with the sportsmen and women of this state. Attitudes such as yours are a contributing factor. We don't need new laws imposed on us. Period. If the Conservation Officers are unable/unwilling to enforce the existing laws, perhaps we need to replace them and find some officers who realize they are working FOR and WITH the people, not against them.

Florida overhauled their DNR a few years ago and re-wrote their mission statement in order to get back in touch with the sportsmen of the state.

I think it is long overdue for that to occur here, too.

[mjp]

Is there an easy way to find out which rules/laws originate from the DNR and which are from politicians.

[watercop19]

Hey Yooper, CHILL OUT!!!!

[boehr]

Good for you Yooper, you read only what you want to read. Nobody is taking your opinion away from you, I don't see any of your opinions being deleted. They are there for all to read but I also can have an opinion as a CO and as a hunter.

[This message has been edited by boehr (edited 12-03-2000).]

[surveyor_scott]

Don't chill out Yooper. That is one of the things that makes this country great. Everyone has the right to express their opinion. The personal attacks are out-of-bounds by both of you. Boehr, I think there is some truth to what Yooper is saying. Try and think of it this way...these are some of the same arguments that are used in the gun control debates. "If guns are outlawed, then only Outlaws will have guns." I don't really think that more laws are the answer to our problems. If your inclined to poach no new law is going to stop you. I know one thing, it is very frustrating to pass up on deer during bow season, only to have the neighbors invite every person that they've ever met come shoot anything that moves on the gun opener. I am not completely informed on the block permits regulations, since I've never recieved one. Therefore, I'm not sure that this is a problem caused by the DNR, or that can be fixed by the DNR. What are the rules on them, who can get them, how many can they get, who gets to use them, what animals can be tagged with them, what methods can be used to kill the animal? I think if I had a better understanding of the rules, I would have a better idea if there are any violations.

WOW both YOOPER and boehr like to type :) But i think Yooper does have so many valid points . I as an american am sick and tired of being punished bye the system because of the few. In ohio for instance if we pull in a drive to turn around and then back out and our lights shine a field we can be and WILL be CITED. I asked an officer here about he degree of the offence. He told me no matter what the offense was if the law was broken he WOULD ISSUE a ciation. Then kind of laughing to all of us there that they would have to get an attorney to get them off any way. I aked him to place him self under arrest fro littering as he threw HIS CIGARETTE down and mashed it in the ground and walked away.

Every year in Ohio the DNR makes up so many new laws you need to be a lawyer to TRY and be on the safe side to hunt.

[This message has been edited by sportsmaster (edited 12-03-2000).]

[boehr]

Problem is I never stated I was for new laws. I was attempting to explain why exsisting laws came about. The only law I stated that I was for was the shining law and then I stated I and in fact, the DNR is not in support for the bill now in the legislature to change shining and make it even more restrictive.

I to am a hunter as a CO an I too am entitled to an opinion. Because I am a CO doesn't mean I can not post my opinion as any other hunter.

Taking the above posts into consideration, Yooper, I apologize for any and all personal attacks against you.

[boehr]

I am not completely informed on the block permits regulations, since I've never recieved one. Therefore, I'm not sure that this is a problem caused by the DNR, or that can be fixed by the DNR. What are the rules on them, who can get them, how many can they get, who gets to use them, what animals can be tagged with them, what methods can be used to kill the animal? I think if I had a better understanding of the rules, I would have a better idea if there are any violations.[/B]

As a CO I will try to give you the short explanation of block permits. Previous, I know there has been I lawsuit, maybe two, against the DNR for crop damage and for the DNR to pay for that damage. Because of the issuance of antlerless permits and the issuance of, at that time, summer time crop damage permits, the lawsuit was dismissed. Because of the public (mainly hunters) outcry about summer crop damge permits, the DNR attempted to find a way for the hunters to possibly have an advantage for farmers to allow the hunters to hunt that property with damage. That was also in attempt to decrease the number of summer crop damage permits issued. At first, the block permits went crazy although it did and still has greatly reduced the number of summer crop damage permits. Since the first years of block permits, it has became better and more under control. Block permits, unlike antlerless permits, are only good for the property issued and adjacent property, for antlerless deer. They can not be used in the entire DMU. They can be used only during the proper season, bow during bow season, firearm during firearm season etc. A farmer, to obtain block permits, must have a history of confirmed damage for, I believe, one year prior to being able to obtain block permits. A wildlife biologist will make a recommendation as to how many block permits are issued depending on total acres, the area, amount of damage.

It would be nice to be able to get property with damage opened up to the public but I just don't see happening and know of no way to force that issue. Further, I think it would be wrong to force someone to allow someone else to hunt their property. What is the other alternatives. Well, we can pay the farmers for the crop damage, that's going to take millions from the Fish & Game Protection Fund.

As far as the driveway issue and shining, I don't know what CO you were talking to or if the conversation was in a joking tone or what. I will say, a ticket will, under those circumstances, never be issued in my district for that because I personally will order it dismissed and that officer will have some explaining to do.

[Neapolis]

Sportsman - In what Ohio county you get told by a conservation officer that backing out of a driveway with your lights shining in a field might result in a ticket?


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Neapolis
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[surveyor_scott]

Thanks Boehr. I have a couple other questions regarding crop damage. Does someone make an actual field visit to observe the crop damage? Also, I've personally witnessed coons doing crop damage that until that time I assumed to be deer. Is there anyway of knowing what type of animal did the damage? Short of witnessing it. If so, are the "field inspectors" trained to distinguish the difference? Also, Boehr I hope that you didn't think I thought you weren't entitled to an opinion. I did say "everyone". Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by surveyor_scott (edited 12-03-2000).]

Boehr : If someone makes a mistake it takes a man to say i am sorry and ask for forgivness. I respect what you just did . I still think your A OK. nuff said



[This message has been edited by sportsmaster (edited 12-03-2000).]

[boehr]

scott...I would like to say that yes a physical vist is made but since Wildlife Division is responsible for that and damage complaints vary in different parts of the state, I can't say for sure that a biologist makes a visit in every case, only in the majority. Our biologists are very well trained and definitely can tell the difference between deer, coon, bear and other critters that may cause damge.

[Eastern Yooper]

I, too, extend my arm out for a 'cyber-handshake' and offer apologies to boehr and anyone else I may have offended.

It is not my intention to let things disintegrate into vile personal attacks.... yet I am guilty of it.

I suspect that we are more alike than we are different, and those differences could be worked out in a morning of fishing or sitting in a duck blind.

So: Consider me "chilled-out"..... for now. :)

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VEGETARIAN: Indian word meaning 'Bad Hunter'

OR HELPING ME SPLIT FIREWOOD LOL

[Joe Archer]

First, as far as the issues go I am in favor of baiting and opposed to poaching.
To answer questions asked of me;
"What does the new 'no-baiting' laws have to do with curbing the night shooting your neighbors used to do?" They simply couldnt place bait piles under their street lights because it was way too obvious.
"I hope you did the right thing and called the law after hearing those shots..... " DNR said they would "increase their patrol of the area"
And OK, maybe selfish...but I wish they would just leave my area.
Lastly, I believe in areas that you can bait that you can legally shoot a deer from a cabin window as long as it is done during legal hours. The only opposing law I know of would be "shooting within a safety zone" This can still be done with written permision from the owner. Am I correct Boehr? <----<<<

[bcat]

Hi There--I have been monitoring this post and have come to the conclusion, that many states have the same problem. In Wyoming they finally made the rule that you couldnt get a damage check from the F&G if you dont allow hunting on the land in question!! Easy answer!!! We have the same problem with Game commisioners being "appointed" by the governor. Lots of buddy buddy things go on with this type of appointment. Same problems different states. I gotta agree with the Yooper on most of his statements made and common sense should rule in this arguement or discussion. I think he was justified in his statements of trust and distrust when it comes to officails. Sometimes they are OK and sometimes they think the badge makes them a little better than anyone else. They always told me, that reformed poachers were what the game depts look for when hiring a warden!!!hehehe I guess they know all the tricks. Wyoming wont hardly even hire an in state person for thier game wardens. They get them from back east. People that were raised here and Know what the heck is going on are far more likely to object to some of the game departments decisions!!! THe easterners seem to take orders better, cause they dont know any better!!!bcat

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If you're not the lead dog the scenery never changes

[boehr]

You are correct Joe about the safety zone.

[DILLIGAF]

Originally posted by mjp:
Before I get harpooned for this let me start by saying that I am in no way infavor poaching. That said, lets look at the numbers cited. 22 deer +11 turkeys + 1 bear = 34 not 60. Given tha thousands of folks that are in the woods this time of year I don't think that 34 illegally taken critters is all that bad, not acceptable but not too bad. I think that the vast majority of people in the woods are ethical law abiding folks and that the people who shoot deer with lights etc. are the exception. Now for the good part, I also think that the DNR works on the assumption that most people who venture afield are going to eventually violate. I'm not going to shoot any critter with a light and the 11pm rule assumes if I decide to go out some night after 11pm I may not be able to control myself. If I'm on my way home from work at midnight and see a good buck cross the road and I stop to put my headlights on him for a second I'm a violater, I don't think so. I also have a feed pile under a light off my deck, if there comes a rule against this because somebody shoots a deer from the house I guess I will be a violator because I will not stop because of some dumb ass. I think that many of the DNR rules are there because in the past people have acted in unethical ways and we are all being made to pay for it. The hardcore game hogs are not stopped by any of these rules, only the law abiding of us will. I'm afraid that sooner or later we will get to a point that all of us will be labeled a violator because of attempts by the DNR to regulate morality upon those who enjoy the outdoors.

The other 26 violations are fish related. Also, this is only one weeks of reports from one publication!

[BowHunt10]

POACHERS SHOULD BE GIVEN A PINE BOX!!! I hate poaching and poachers. Bottom line is this, state reps, DNR, whatever get together and make/enforce the laws. What is a couple of $$$ to a poacher....nothing. 9 times out of 10 they dont have a license or carry one with them, so losing the right to hunt is not an issue or a "fine". Do you think a couple of dollars and a oh you lost your hunting for 3 years is going to do it, hell no. It is a crock of s##t what poacher are handed. The fine should be so big that the word spreeds like wildfire. Kinda like lose everything that brought you to the kill, lose everthing on you, starting at 5,000 dallar fine, and a minimum of 90days in jail. Then the sorry sons-of-b####'s would lose their job, ability to pay bills, thus losing their house and so on, i feel no pity for throughing a poacher out in the cold. Their is no difference between a murderer and a poacher, and it is sad that our DNR/State Reps dont see that. Just my 2 pennies.

[Recurve]

It used to be if someone poached it was probably because they needed to feed their family. Nowadays, it seems like someone poaches to take a trophy animal because they don't know how to hunt "fair chase" and they want to be able to brag that they got a big buck. Slob hunters give us all a bad name. The same goes for those f*ckers that steal tree stands.

[Huntnut]

BowHunt10,
I agree that poaching is a bad thing, but I think we need to keep things in perspective. After all, a deer is only an animal. Poaching encompasses a wide variety of activities. Say for instance a bowhunter is hunting over a baitpile. The baitpile has exactly 2.1 gallons of corn. The bowhunter shoots a doe off the pile, and tags it for the freezer. Technically he is a poacher. According to your sentiment, we should fine this gentlemen $5000.00, throw him in jail, confiscate all his equipment, and remove his hunting rights for X amount of time.
At the same time another gentlemen non-hunter is driving down the road and a HUGE 16pt. boone and crockett buck jumps out in front of his vehicle. The buck is killed, and left to waste and rot on the side of the road. Which is a bigger crime in your book? This gentlemen receives no reprimand whatsoever, and his deer goes to waste!
How valuable is a single deer? Is a deer worth destroying a persons record and life for? What if our hunter/poacher has a couple kids that depend on him for money and a home. A punishment that large would surely affect his family more than it would him.
How valuable is a deer? During past winters, Michigan has lost tens of thousands of deer that were wasted. I did not see any huge supplemental feeding expenditures from the government to save these animals in the U.P. in 95 and 96. It seems it was ok, "cause the herd can rebuild".
How valuable is a deer when it costs $3.00 to harvest a doe?
65,000 deer are involved in car/deer accidents in Michigan every year. How valuable were these deer? I bet many more were killed by cars than by poachers, but this high collision rate does not seem to be a concern of hunters.
My point is this, The deer herd in Michigan is put and take. Just like Michigans fisheries. If deer are indeed so valuable to hunters that we attack poachers with such vigor, why do we not attack the roadkill and winterization problems with the same amount of vigor?
How valuable is a deer really? In my book, not more valuable than my and my families livelyhood.
Poaching is wrong, but I have to say as long as the DNR sells doe permits for $6.00 and unlimited doe permits for $3.00, the value of a deer is not much more than that.
Just my opinion, and we all know it doesn't mean much.
Huntnut

[Huntnut]

Hey before I get slammed for that post, let me say that there ARE different degrees of poaching. Someone shining and shooting a record buck on someone else's land from a truck is serious. Irregardless of the deer, many other laws are broken. Poaching the deer is not nearly nearly as important as HOW it was poached. I believe each case of poaching is unique and needs to be dealt with according to the circumstances. How about a 14 year old kid that shoots a squirrell in his subdivision backyard with a slingshot in the middle of summer...that too is poaching, but how serious do we take it? A small game license does indeed cost more than a doe permit!
Huntnut

[This message has been edited by Huntnut (edited 12-06-2000).]

[Mptycreel]

I was trying to stay out of this one, but I feel that I must voice my opinion. I am tired of reading posts about people who sound like they can't hunt without throwing bait.
There are 21 states, and all but one Canadian province, where baiting whitetail deer is illegal. I can only hope that the "sportsmen" on this site would be up to the challenge of becoming better hunters if they couldn't bait any more. Just throwing out the point that deer can be hunted without bait. I'm not suggesting a complete ban of baiting, I just believe that baiting deer should not be as important as some people are making it out to be.

[Eastern Yooper]

Deer can actually be hunted without using bait?!?!?!

W-O-W!

Thank-you so, so much for pointing that out.

Maybe you could run some seminars around the state and show the rest of us how to become 'real sportsmen' like you.

Think you'd be up to that challenge?

[Recurve]

Huntnut, Irregardless is not a word. Other than that I agree with you. I guess that's why law enforcement has some discretion. However, the loss of habitat and farmland is a bigger problem than poaching. Acres and acres of prime Michigan farmland and habitat are lost to development everyday. Also, with that comes a loss of access to areas for hunting. Perhaps we should be worring about birth control for humans.

[This message has been edited by Recurve (edited 12-07-2000).]

[Huntnut]

Irregardless is definitely not a word. I argued with my editor about that one after I read your response. The word I should have used was "regardless"...irregardless is like a double negative. My mistake, but I'm sure you knew what I meant.
I hope the idea was clear enough even with the one grammatical error.
Sheesh. :rolleyes:
Hunt

[boehr]

Take it easy on Mptycreel Yooper...you'll find more than 7 or 8 that agree with him on this issue. Look at past posts!

[Huntnut]

Gawd...here we go with the baiting thing again.
My take for the record:
Michigan has 1.9 Million deer (free ranging cows).
I use bait to HARVEST or SLAUGHTER my meat venison. Just like cows in a slaughterhouse. No challenge there, just COLLECTING my beef for the year out of a treestand instead of a shopping market. I do this 50% of my season, usually QDM does.
I HUNT without bait, reading sign, wind in ma face, etc...the other 50%. This is for the challenge. I usually target a specific buck or two. I really enjoy this hunting.

If you are gonna get pi$$ed at baiters because you think that method of meat collecting is too easy, you also need to get pi$$ed at everybody that shops at Krogers or Farmer Jacks.
Hunt

[Joe Archer]

I just do not appreciate people projecting their opinions onto the masses and saying they are "better sportsmen" or "better hunters"

'I can only hope that the "sportsmen" on this site would be up to the challenge of becoming better hunters if they couldn't bait any more'

I am an advocate of baiting especially for archery hunting. I have taken deer with and without bait. I'll put my hunting, tracking, and archery skills up against any of the "quality hunters" any day of any week. As will, I believe, alot of others who post here. <----<<<

[BowHunt10]

Huntnut

I see your point, there are differnet degrees of poaching. However to make my point more clear, the sorry son of a b###h that shines his light, slides his car off the raod as he is reaching for his rifle to blast a deer, uses night scopes, shoot on posted land, runs deer down, sets traps, has flood light over a pile at camp or in the back yard and so on. This is directed to them. The baiting issue, 2.1 gallons yes is an infraction on the law, but not "in my opinion if taken legal" is not poaching. Im taking about blatent poaching, not the size of a bait pile. As far as the baiting s##t i read here all the time, until baiting is outlawed completely there is not much we can say or do. We will always have baiters, and non-baiters. Both will never see the other side, i have in the past shot deer of from piles, and dont now. I find it better and harder to actually walk out and scout and pattern a deer, than placing food out and waiting for the nose to pike it up. Plus for all the non-baiters look on the bright side, if you find a bait pile, you know there is a hunter that is not willing to hunt several areas and leave sent around. He will just stay there, not walk up on you and so on, also on the other hand, if you hunt the trail that lead to a bait pile, your no different that a baiter. All in all, better to respect fellow hunter opinions than let the anti's watch us fight.

[Huntnut]

BowHunt10,
I agree completely. Nice chat.
Hunt

[Eastern Yooper]

Nicely put, Joe. I couldn't agree with you more!

(And sorry, boehr: I forgot I was chilled-out). :)

[Mptycreel]

OK- one more post-
This is my take on the dnr/deer hunting rules debate.
Sometime way back before I ever started hunting, the state of michigan decided that it owned all the deer in the state. Soon after they imposed sets of rules including seasons, limits, license fees, and more.
The state allowed hunters to hunt it's deer if they followed their rules. This is basicaly the way it still is today.
I tend to look at this just like any other game or activity that I participate in. The rules are a part of the game.
In my last post, I was just trying to make the point that if the rules were to change even more, we would probably still play the game. That's all.
I don't mean to rub anybody the wrong way, I am just explaining the way that I look at it.

[farmlegend]

For what it's worth, Huntnut, a believe a $5,000 fine would be perfectly appropriate for the violation you mentioned, regardless of how many children the perpetrator may have.

[bonasabuster]

this has been a great and passionate thread to boehr and eastern youper my hats off to you both .you are both great assets to the this site i enjoy reading both of your opinions and agree and disagree with you both,on differnet topics.i for one am tired of having a society that beleives that a law is a cure all when we all know that only the law abiding are affected.i do enjoy being a part of a comminity that is so passionate about it's domain (sportsmen/women). i am also quite displeased with the laws in my state of ohio.the only sportsman that the tresspassing/poaching laws affect is the one's who chose not to break them.i lease land for hunting in ohio and am completely over run by trespassers during gun season.when i report them i get a superficial phone call two or three nights later data taken and nothing done.even when i give names and lisc plate numbers.i even get less when the officer finds out i lease the hunting rights there seems to be a strong dislike for that with our dnr.but just let a officer show up during our deer drives and suddenly billy bad ***** with the badge is scraping for the smallest infraction. and he is the same guy i shared coffee and some laughs with the night before at my own kitchen table.on the other hand they do stop some of the poachers and lawless in my area and as boeher does here do raise a persons awareness of the game laws.two years ago the fine for tresspassing was raised from 100 to 500 dollar fine and i have seen no difference in the number of violaters.was i in favor of this law yes did it do anything for me no wich i must sadly say is the case with most laws. the brady bill actually registers me as a gun owner but almost never has convicted a felon for breaking the law the true impact of poaching is the same as all other criminal activity more laws for the law abiding citizen to have a chance to trip over or to restrict his/her life

[Randy/MI]

Originally posted by Eastern Yooper:

boehr:

Obviously you and I are going to keep knocking-heads on some of these issues. I live a secluded life? What a self-righteous, condescending thing to say.

Folks: Its obvious that boehr is in favor of more laws to further choke the sportsmen of this great state. And therein lies the difference between my opponent boehr, and me:

I believe the men and women of this state are not staying-up late at night trying to find ways to violate. Apparantly boehr does, and he feels he is walking the thin blue line between maintaining order and outright anarchy in our state so far as hunting and fishing is concerned. I think if he was driving a State Police car, he'd be ticketing folks for doing 71 mph on the interstate.
I'll sum it up like this: He trusts the governemnt and more laws; I trust you.

I believe the DNR should help people enjoy the outdoors, not control and dominate them.

:)
Yo...Yooper! Man, you got your head in the sand! Poaching IS a HUGE PROBLEM and spotlighting is a big part of it! Are you trying to whitewash the subject to cover for friends/family or what? Poachers are nothing more than thieves, robbing the hard-working, law-abiding citizens of every state of what they have a right to....often on their own property. These creeps don't respect fish & game laws, drug laws, trespass laws nor hardly anything at all. The ones I'm acquainted with will quickly take selfish, immoral advantage in any situation they can....They're a lazy, shiftless blight on humanity and should be forced to serve hard time at hard labor until they accept proper rules intended to protect the rest of us.

[Eastern Yooper]

Sorry I can't respond to you, Randy.... I've been 'chilled-out'.

[bonasabuster]

well i ain't chilled out randy why can't i as a law abiding sportsman shine deer?anytime i want to if my intentions are nothing but to observe deer. last night coming home from dinner and a movie with my wife at about midnight would have been a great time for me to swing in my cornfield lane and get to see who knows how many deer and eye's shining back at us. might even been able to tell how many of the bucks running my property all year survived the gun season (personally i know the 7 pt didn't and the 12 pt did) but what about the 6 and 9 pt.and just because poachers have this as one of many means to take deer illegally i am prohibited from doing this even in a truck in dress clothes and no firearms what so ever on me or in the truck.im sorry but i think there should be laws on how and when you can eat food cause some people obviously can't control when and how much they eat and there overwieght and that causes my health insurance to be higher!!!!!! not the right mind set in my never to be humble opinion.and even you admit that the poachers don't care about any of the laws and regulations so why should i have my life and freedom restricted because of the actions of a few that the state does a very poor job of prosecuting?now don't interpet this as well there should be no laws. i am not saying that but i am saying the burden of proof should have to be there if a shining law is written to curb poaching then let it be shining with the intent to poach not blanket it as all shining.

[This message has been edited by bonasabuster (edited 12-10-2000).]

[boehr]

Originally posted by bonasabuster:
the state does a very poor job of prosecuting...i am saying the burden of proof should have to be there if a shining law is written to curb poaching then let it be shining with the intent to poach not blanket it as all shining.

[This message has been edited by bonasabuster (edited 12-10-2000).]

If you feel about shining that way then I suggest you write your Senator and Represenative because SB0388 (Senate Bill 0388) is about to make shining even more restrictive. The DNR does not support this bill as written nor do I as a CO or hunter.

The county prosecutors prosecute the cases, the state, being the officer, turns the case over to the county prosecutor. If you meant something else please explain.

Please explain how to determine intent to poach without poaching?

[bonasabuster]

well first boehr id be glad to call my rep but i live in ohio where we can't shine at all so 1/2 hr after sundown it is illegal to shine wildlife.or even during the day for that matter.the state doing a poor job of prosecution is again aimed at my state of ohio but i hear the same from michigan sportsmen.and quite frankly is aimed at the justice system period.everyone says report violators even i catch myself saying that to people when they voice a concern or problem.but the officer that calls rarely can do anything and if personal views enter sometimes refuse to do anything( i lease hunting rights in ohio and i can tell you my local warden has made it clear he dose not support this and in so dosen't follow up on my reports of trespassing/poaching at my kitchen table and we share arguements and laughs there but when he checks me in the field he is billy bad ***** and really checks me over and no i don't leave anything to interpatation)even if he does then let's say the prosecutor does a great job to then here comes the judge who is late for dinner or what but gives the perp about 1/2 the max. that is poor prosecution.and as far as intent to poach how about no shining with firearms on or in your possesion.who in there right mind would investigate me shining find me in a clean gmc jimmy with no evidence of ever being used for anything hunting wise. that aint hard to tell the difference between my pickup (with deer blood in the back and bird feathers in the cab)and my wife's truck that is spotless and me with dress clothes on and here is the best one no firearms on me or my truck?who would beleive i was trying to poach what am i going to do run up and tackle it.but back to the original thread question the cost of poaching is the loss of freedoms for only the law abiding.i get alot of my hunting leases because older widows are so frustrated with the systems lack of ability to do anything about the tresspassing poaching going on on thier land once i leased one and had to myself confront and threaten the law breaking s**thead who was doing it word spread and i got alot more offers for the next year simply because i was willing to do something my law enforcement officer wasn't simply face to face say stop it or ... in his case a ticket but that aint what i theatened, the the next year a sheriff got wind of this and joined me hunting on the leased land.now i do beleive there are good laws which we need that are not the result of feel good politics but for someone to defend a law with the reasoning that well poachers or criminals do that so no one should or no one should after a certain time is wrong i will now step down off my soap box and go back to more light hearted humorus posts and responses as is my favorite thing to do here

[boehr]

It does seem that you do have a problem where you live. I have no idea what the laws in Ohio are so I can't comment on those laws obviously. As far as the Ohio CO that you refer to, I understand. If I had a CO under my supervision that acted like that I would hope that the hunter would call me because I would not tolerate that type of attitude. Good luck.

[ONURNEZ]

Great reading everyone. Many people seam to believe poaching is a huge problem in Michigan. Let me play the devil's advocate here for a minute. I personally have never heard a DEFINATE poachers gun go off at night. Nor have I personally witnessed a blatent illegal shooting of a deer. Obviously that does not mean it does'nt happen but it seams to be infrequent enough to have escaped MY attention. I can't see it being a HUGE problem. Of all the responces I've read, I have to agree with Huntnut the most. Its a shame to see the highways littered with rotting deer every year. If givin the choice I'd rather have that deer taken by a poacher, the night before it was taken by someones vehicle. (Provided it was'nt to be wasted.) There is a big difference between someone who is feeding they're family and someone who's out looking for a wall-hanger. Both are illegal, I know but, If I owned land and was to inept to actually HUNT for food, I would'nt hesitate to fill my freezer with whatever means necessary. I'd go as far as daring someone to try to stop me! Now, on the other hand, I HAVE found a deer with a bullet hole in it and the rack cut off. I even found a nice buck one time on MY OWN property with a rifle hole in it. (Durring bow season.) I was furious and it would have been hard not to return the favor to the idiot who did it, had I seen it happen. Though I understand people can justify doing certain things in their own minds, I do not have to like it. People will poach. There's not a thing ANYONE can do to change that. The laws at best, will make everyones lives easier by not having to witness blatent poaching. But make no mistake about it, it's not going to stop. Hear no Evil, See no Evil. Out of sight, out of mind. Thats the best we can hope for.
You can interpret "freedom" in many different ways. Unfortunatly some people break the very laws that have given them their freedom, to justify the breaking of others......Just a thought.