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Ibow
02-17-2005, 06:54 PM
There seems to be a lot of talk lately about going back to a one buck limit in MI. Below is an article many of you probably have read on other sites or in your own newspaper. What's your feeling on it? Despite what Gwidz says below, I would be in favor of returning to a one buck limit in DMU's where the local biologists supported it. I really don't care if they tripled the cost of a tag.



Column: Going back to one-buck limit wouldn't do any good Sunday, February 13, 2005

State wildlife officials say they're hearing a mantra about deer hunting across the state: one buck, one buck, one buck.

It would be a major change in policy.

Michigan deer hunters have been able to take two bucks a year -- one with a bow, another with a firearm -- since 1977. Then in 1986, the Department of Natural Resources created a second-buck license that allowed hunters to take four deer -- two with a bow and two with a firearm.

In the early 1990s, the DNR set a two-buck limit, but it was totally on the honor system as hunters could still buy four tags (two archery, two firearms). It wasn't until the creation of the combination license in 1998, when second-buck licenses were eliminated, that hunters were limited to two buck tags. And, because the current combo license is mandated by legislation, a change in limits from two bucks to one would have to be on the honor system, too.

"For us to go to a one-buck rule, it would have to be voluntary compliance," said DNR deer specialist Rod Clute.

The two-buck rule is big with hunters. In 2004, 52 percent of Michigan deer hunters bought two buck tags (370,433 bought the combo license, 27,783 bought both archery and firearms tags).

The first big hurdle the DNR would face if second bucks were eliminated is a devastating loss of income. At an average of $14 apiece ($15 next year) for buck tags, the DNR figures it would cost $5.6 million to go to one buck. So they'd either have to gut the staff and eliminate 56 positions (figure $100,000 per employee for wages, benefits, vehicles, etc.) or add more than 50 percent to the cost of a deer license to remain revenue neutral. (And remember, the DNR is facing a budget shortfall in 2007 and will seek an increased fee, not a revenue-neutral one.)

What would sportsmen gain? Only 4.3 percent of deer hunters kill two bucks. The change would save only an estimated 33,500 second bucks -- provided, of course, a whole bunch of hunters' wives and mothers didn't suddenly become successful deer hunters, if you know what I mean (and I think you do). How many of those would be available to other hunters, given that most deer in Michigan inhabit private property?

But just as importantly, I suspect a one-buck limit would have another negative impact: reducing the chances of success for the remaining hunters.

How? Well, let's say on opening day I see a worthy buck and kill it. I'm done.

I can still hunt antlerless deer, of course, but why would I? I can always hunt antlerless deer during the antlerless-only season. And in all honesty, I don't want to be out there without a valid buck tag during open deer season. Sure as taxes, the buck of my lifetime would walk by on one of those days. I don't want to face that moral challenge.

So I leave the woods. I am no longer moving deer for other hunters. And just as importantly, my (private property) hunting area becomes a sanctuary where the deer can hang out and not be disturbed. Both of those would result in fewer opportunities for other hunters.

"A one-buck rule in southern Michigan will have a negative impact on our antlerless harvest," said DNR deer specialist Rod Clute. "Plus (the loss of) a tremendous amount of recreational opportunity from those who have that second-buck option but never fill it."

The long-and-short of it? It's not going to happen without considerable pain to hunters, who will either pay significantly higher fees or will receive substantially less service (in terms of fewer biologists and/or game wardens) from the DNR.

Going back to a one-buck limit just isn't going to do much good.

"I understand the argument for one buck, but there's no biology to support it," Clute said. "And I'm not sure there's enough social argument to support it."

I'm with Clute. It might sound good, but in terms of fall-out, we'd be better off not going there.

Contact Bob Gwizdz at (517) 487-8888, ext. 237, or e-mail him at bgwizdz@boothnewspapers.com.




mparks
02-17-2005, 07:24 PM
I don't like the idea of the 1 buck rule.

Opening day of gun season is stil my favorite day of the year. I seldom get a doe permit for the area we go for the opener(Mason County) so I need a buck tag for that.

If I shot a buck during bow season I'd have to miss out on the gun opener. That ain't gonna happen so bow season would be either doe only or the buck of a lifetime.

bluewood
02-18-2005, 05:07 AM
I would absolutely support a one buck per year limit, and also be willing to pay a higher license fee in order to do that. If I'm recalling correctly, back in my fathers archery seasons-( 60's early 70's) they had a one deer per year limit. If you shot a deer during bow season, it pretty much cancelled out your gun season tag. There weren't too many bowhunters in the woods back then, part of the reason being, like mparks said, folks just didn't want to lose their rifle opener, if they happen to get a bowkill. I remember one time specifically, my father passed on a huge doe for that very reason, I was sitting right beside him in the blind.
( I wasn't too happy that he passed on it either-- :rant: )

2-BIG
02-18-2005, 06:19 AM
I would be all for a 1 buck limit. :) I would also like to see button bucks tagged as bucks. :) In my area, the buck/doe ratio used to be pretty even. There was a lot more rutting activity, more scrapes and rubs, bucks fighting over does, calling worked great. :D Now you can hunt the same area and see 20 does to every buck. I hunted hard every day from Oct. 29-Nov.16. Many sits from dawn to dusk. I hunted 3 different farms and several state land spots. I saw a whopping total of 5 different buck but many does. :mad:
I am sick of Clute's excuses of the deer won't cooperate, 1 buck limit won't make a difference, tagging button bucks as does is nessecary, blah,blah,blah.... :rant:
What really gets me is the fact that the DNR proudly shows statistics of how the bovine TB has really dropped since baiting has been reduced to what it is now, and in the same breath Clute says baiting should not end as its a legal and viable way of deer hunting! :bash: DUH!!!! What do you think would happen if baiting was eliminated? Maybe even less bovine TB? :yikes:
I am in no way a trophy hunter but just knowing there are a few big bucks out there would be nice! ;)

the old archer
02-18-2005, 07:30 AM
If you look at states with either one buck rules in effect, or you look at states with very limited gun hunting days, or states with combinations of both you will find very healthy populations of large bucks. Like 2-Big, I am not a trophy hunter, other than every deer I kill is a trophy to me, but to think a large buck could just happen by would make days afield even more special. Right now, anything with the smallest of racks we (the farm owner and myself) might pass on will get shot during gun season on two of the adjoining farms. Consequently, it is extremely rare to see a large buck on my hunitng ground even though it backs into a large swampy area around a large lake. We do, however, kill lots of does, but I'm not sure we are making an impact with them! It seems like you kill one and two takes it place. I, too, would support a one buck only ruling and some increase in price of a resident license. Maybe even more extreme: I would support a moritorium for a year or two of no bucks killed, but ample doe licenses in areas where they are thick (my wife and I counted over 40 in one field on our way back from church a few Sundays ago--and they are everywhere around here). At the end of a year or two's moritorium on bucks, Michigan would have some bruisers. BUT, ah-h-h-h, the politics of money...

God bless us every one!! Arch

Ibow
02-18-2005, 09:16 AM
Ditto what 2-Big said.

AnointedArcher
02-18-2005, 10:34 AM
I could support a 1 buck limit and I do like 2-bigs idea about the button bucks.

I quess my question is what is the purpose of 1 buck a year? What does that benifit? Or what is that going to do for us hunters?

Ibow
02-18-2005, 12:21 PM
AA - were all trying to think of something to give up for Lent ... some will give up baiting, others a buck tag and so on. :D

Some feel there is a decline in the ratio of bucks to does (fewer bucks). Some feel there is a decline in the quality of what bucks there are available. Some feel that if deer hunters were limited to one buck per year, the ratio of bucks to does would improve and the quality of available bucks would also.

The second buck kills are 33,000 and the total buck kill is around 250,000, which amounts to about 13 % of the total buck kill - fairly significant when you add to it the fact that a one buck limit would probably save more than 33,000 bucks. Hunters would be more likely to pass on a given bucks on various occasions throughout the fall, betting they will get a chance at another later and in the end may go without ... with will result in more bucks getting a pass on the fall seasons.

I guess it depends upon your perspective and where you hunt (public vs. private land, northern LP and UP vs. southern LP, etc) That's my reason for saying I would me in favor of it in DMU's where the LOCAL (not Lansing) deemed it beneficial.

Not that I think Lansing would ever listen to a local biologist. :lol: :dizzy: :bash:

AnointedArcher
02-18-2005, 01:14 PM
Ok I see what your saying. In that case I realy think 2-bigs idea is better yet. Maybe still have 2 buck limit but any button buck must be taged with a buck tag.

I am even more of a stronger opponent for during gun season having Shotguns only in the lower pennisula and have gun season for two 3 day weekends only with no extended doe seasons, like in Illinois:yikes: .

One Eye
02-19-2005, 10:19 AM
When I tagged along with my dad in the 1970's, it was only one buck regardless of weapon. There were few bow hunters, fewer tree stands, no baiting, and the majority of hunters still used what I would call "primitive" tackle.

375,000 bowhunters, space aged technology, baiting, etc. later, you are darn right that things are out of whack. I would wholeheartedly support a 1 buck limit, at least for a few years to see if there is a benefit. I will also pay more if needed. For heaven's sake, let's try something different!

Dan

Old Hunter
02-21-2005, 01:07 PM
I have been saying for years now, 1 buck and 1 doe and both can be taken in either bow or gun season. STOP THE UNLIMITED ANTLERLESS LICENSES.

Ibow
02-21-2005, 01:50 PM
Ditto Old Hunter's post above ... if it's the DNR's wish to pummel the deer herd, especially in the Northern Lower and Upper Peninsula, then do it during the gun season. The integrity of MI's "archery" season should be protected.

AnointedArcher
02-22-2005, 09:01 AM
I agree with Old Hunters idea! So the way I see it, if two or three of us agree here on earth then so it is in heaven. Do you think the DNR will but that one:lol: !
Jeff

Whit1
02-22-2005, 09:07 AM
For those who believe in a two (or more) buck limit let me tell you that you will survive with only a one buck limit. That's the way it was for years and those of us who hunted under that restraint survived.

If you firearm hunt where there are no doe permits then don't shoot a buck with your bow. Take a doe. If a big buster comes by while bowhunting, then make a choice, take him (not guaranteed of course) or let him pass. Life is full of choices and this might be one of them.

Lenaweebowhunter
02-22-2005, 09:34 AM
I support the one buck limit consept. When I first started bowhunting in the late 60's and through the 70's it was one buck regardless of how you took him. Doe permits were few and far between; what bugs me is our whitetail biologist talk numbers...theses numbers are just computer modles, they currently dont have the facts to make statments that the one bick limit wouldnt help. I know far too many hunters that say well I shot this little 4 point with my bow, now I can concintrate on my big buck. I have been passing young bucks for about 6 years now. I selectivly take mature does on occation. This past fall I took a nice 4-1/2 yr old ten point 200 lb dressed buck with my bow. He wouldnt be there if I had contuniued to kill two bucks a year as I had done for way too may seasons up intill about 6 years ago. In five hunting seasons thats 10 bucks out of the local population and this is just one bowhunter! My 2 cents worth.

john warren
02-22-2005, 10:30 AM
i'm a little confused. not long ago all i heard was what a terrible season we had,,,theres no deer out there,,,the dnr is lying to us on deer numbers...on and on.

so how many hunters actually took two bucks?
what percentage of the total existing bucks does that represent?
how many does do individual bucks service?
guess i have lots of questions and no answers!

Whit1
02-22-2005, 11:47 AM
According to MDNR statistics about 33,500 bucks are taken as "second bucks". This may not sound like much, but when you put it by county, it's about 400 bucks per county.

Statistically speaking the number of 2nd bucks is adjusted to x % who do not report their 2nd buck. This involves a statistics factor that is included. The science/math of statistics is very complicated and I don't pretend to understand it at all.

Please don't misunderstand my above post as supporting or justifying the way some of our deer herd data is obtained. My opinion: Of course some of it is valid, but I hold that other data might be suspect as to its accuracy.

One Eye
02-26-2005, 09:47 AM
Okay, I have just finished up a week of travelling across this great state for work. I drove from Muskegon to Kalamazoo on Monday, Muskegon to Monroe on Tuesday, Muskegon to Holland on Wednesday, Muskegon to Bay City on Thursday, and Muskegon to Traverse City on Friday. ON those trips I saw deer in the fields and roads only along I-96 near Ionia, down by Monroe, and I saw a few deer while driving along M-20 West of Mount Pleasant. I have driven many of these roads for many years, and I cannot believe how few deer I see now. The most staggering is the trip along M-66 between Six Lakes and Remus. I never see deer along this route anymore, and I used to see hundreds. Even worse, is the trip up M-37 to Traverse City. I rarely see deer along this route regardless of the time of day or night.


What is my point??? Where are these record numbers of deer that need controlling?????

Dan

2-BIG
02-26-2005, 02:51 PM
Remember Dan, Rod Clute says the deer are there but they are just not cooperating. :yikes: Yeah right! :lol:

Fordfreak
02-28-2005, 07:55 PM
The 4.3% of deer hunters take a second buck statistic is probably way off. I can think of at least 5 hunters that tagged 3 or more bucks alone last season, they just used other peoples tags to do it.
I would definately support a one buck limit here in Michigan, at least for a couple years. I also think having mandatory deer checks would also keep people a little more honest with the law as well.

Fordfreak

Razorhed2
02-28-2005, 08:06 PM
Let me get this straight - you guys only pay $15 for a license! I pay out of state at $130 a pop or $260 for a combo tag. I don't mind paying it either - for what I get to experience - it is a bargin at any price!!!!

How about one buck tag and raise the cost of a license to cover the offset. That would raise even more money. What is $30 bucks? (I remember when it was Either / or. One tag, one deer - didn't matter which season. It wasn't a big deal. Can you imagine - opening day a nice buck walks out. Do you shoot it and end your season - or wait for something better and end up without? Now that's what it is all about!

I wish the MDNR would take a page from the Ohio DNR. There are different limits for the different zones. One Buck, One doe, One buck two does, etc. For $30 in OH you get a small game license and a special deer permit.

Whit1
02-28-2005, 08:28 PM
The 4.3% of deer hunters take a second buck statistic is probably way off. I can think of at least 5 hunters that tagged 3 or more bucks alone last season, they just used other peoples tags to do it.
I would definately support a one buck limit here in Michigan, at least for a couple years. I also think having mandatory deer checks would also keep people a little more honest with the law as well.

Fordfreak


:yeahthat: :yeahthat:

spice64
03-01-2005, 01:25 AM
This 1 buck ideal seems almost unanimus I'm for it 100%. Buttons also must be tagged as bucks. If ya cant tellwhat it is dont shoot it.

Whit1
03-01-2005, 01:34 AM
If ya cant tellwhat it is dont shoot it.


:yeahthat: .......another one and with ample reason!