Rebut 3

[Pinefarm]

From the closed thread about hunters leaving the north to hunt the south. In reply, I think it isn't that hunters are lazy and don't want to scout in the north. What it is, in my opinion, is that hunters left their homes in the south, went up north and saw zilch for several days. They came home and their neighbors hunting in the same county they reside in had a buck pole full of decent bucks, one hog buck, a bunch of fat does and lots of great stories of all kinds of deer. If this happens year after year, eventually people are going to stay and hunt around home. We're in about year 3 of this happening and it's only hit a high gear withing the last 2 months, IMHO. Wait until next year and 2006. I think you'll see that many more leaving and heading south.
Unless they have to, nobody is going to keep going to a mine that's hours away, that appears played out when there's a supposed mine just around the corner from home where everyone is finding all the gold they could dream of.

[jk hillsdale]

If this happens year after year, eventually people are going to stay and hunt around home. We're in about year 3 of this happening and it's only hit a high gear withing the last 2 months, IMHO. Wait until next year and 2006. I think you'll see that many more leaving and heading south.

Bob,

You're much more well versed that I am in terms of what percentage of hunters are discontent enough to discontinue hunting in the northern part of the state. However, it's worth noting that in southern MI, unless a person is well connected, they're going to find it very difficult to obtain access.

A very high percentage of landowners in S. MI either hunt themselves or have family members who do so, and are not going to permit others on their property. There's also a significant percentage of landowners who simply don't permit any hunting.

That leaves leasing, and since land fragmentation is a much greater issue here, it's very uncommon to find leases that are greater than 150-200 acres. As a matter of fact, it's not that easy to find any sized lease in S. MI. The five farmers that I'm well acquainted with grow a sum total of about 11,000 acres, and a stranger wouldn't stand a chance at obtaining permission or a lease on any of that acreage. Although to some the grass may appear to be greener in S. MI, the access issue is a very real hurdle.

[farmlegend]

Worth noting also that, according to DNR data, the southern lower now gets more deer hunting pressure than both the northern lower and the U.P.....combined! I'd recommend sticking it out in the north country; yeah, a few less deer, but lots fewer hunters too, and that is a factor in the overall hunting experience.

Though access in the southern lower may be challenging, remember, practically everything on this earth is for sale; it just depends upon the price! Wave enough green in front of a landowner's nose, and he just might send the guys who've been hunting his joint packing.

[Bwana]

Bob,

You're much more well versed that I am in terms of what percentage of hunters are discontent enough to discontinue hunting in the northern part of the state. However, it's worth noting that in southern MI, unless a person is well connected, they're going to find it very difficult to obtain access.

A very high percentage of landowners in S. MI either hunt themselves or have family members who do so, and are not going to permit others on their property. There's also a significant percentage of landowners who simply don't permit any hunting.

That leaves leasing, and since land fragmentation is a much greater issue here, it's very uncommon to find leases that are greater than 150-200 acres. As a matter of fact, it's not that easy to find any sized lease in S. MI. The five farmers that I'm well acquainted with grow a sum total of about 11,000 acres, and a stranger wouldn't stand a chance at obtaining permission or a lease on any of that acreage. Although to some the grass may appear to be greener in S. MI, the access issue is a very real hurdle.
Have you considered tresspass both accidental and intentional? Imagine what an influx of 50,000 disgruntled hunters into the SLP will be like. SLP owners will be spending less time hunting and more time arguing with tresspassers that know they won't get in much trouble if any.

[Splitshot]

Bob,

Don’t you think this is normal. When there were lots of bucks in the UP, hunters were everywhere and when they crashed the people left. Same way with fishing. When the word gets out about a certain river, it gets crowded. Usually a week to late, but many people rely on others to tell them where to go.

Perhaps there aren’t as many deer camps because of things like understanding scent control. One guy smoking in the cabin taints everyone else. Scouting is another issue. It costs me about $75.00 to drive up to my cabin, perhaps drive to Frankfort and home again. The UP where I hunted is about 3 times that far. Motel costs are up, food costs etc..

Then like you say the guys see the buck poles with the big deer and opt to hunt down south. Seems reasonable. Remember 35 years ago there weren’t that many deer south of M46. Things change, times change and somehow we must make the best of it.

[Steve]

I for one, will continue my treks up north and actively work to better habitat in my area. We have already seen a large reduction in the amount of deer in my area since the late 80's, but we also consistently get glimpses of larger bucks (and many of these on public land). If others choose not to make the trek up north I guess it just means more solitude for the rest of us.

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

:yeahthat:

Just being up there is the biggest part of it to me.

[Bwana]

I for one, will continue my treks up north and actively work to better habitat in my area. We have already seen a large reduction in the amount of deer in my area since the late 80's, but we also consistently get glimpses of larger bucks (and many of these on public land). If others choose not to make the trek up north I guess it just means more solitude for the rest of us.
I will never leave the Northern Forests for Farmland either. I am actually considering moving shop to the UP from the NELP. Our camp has noticed the dramatic decline in the TB area and has fractured as a result. I have also noticed less hunters in the woods as well. I believe it can only get better from here in the Northern regions. I hope I am not being too optimistic.

[Pinefarm]

I think we're in the early stages of a lease war that will have few winners. I already know several hunters in town that got in on leases downstate this year and saw so many nice bucks and overall quality that they claim they won't return to Baldwin anytime soon. And they live here AND have property here. One guy is town is telling everyone about how he had 3 different huge bucks go by him on gun opener by Hastings and that he couldn't load his muzzleloader fast enough. (He missed because he banged his scope on the way out and his gun was like 3' high) He saw something like 15 bucks in the gun season alone! When he tells that story at the local bar and most of the locals listening didn't see but 1 or 2 bucks all year, maybe none, and they were no bigger than forks, the wheels start turning. Granted, not all hunters will leave, but don't be shocked if the NLP has 15-20% less hunters by 2010. And I don't mean just the first 2 days of gun season. I mean the guy that lives downstate but always came here to do all his deer hunting. The topic of heading south to hunt, once unfathomable to residents up here, is now a legit option.
I think that building in an extra $500 a year for land expenses is just going to be part of more and more hunters annual budgets.
And remember that money always talks. Many of places we had access to in Illinois got leased by others who outbid everyone else. There was a great 250 acre lease right on the Illinois river that our farmer friend had leased for years and then someone came and offered $10,000 for a year. The owner said whoever can match that can have the lease, because the owner still wanted a local to have it. Needless to say, we can't hunt that spot anymore. I suspect that the prime spots in southern Michigan are only in the initial stages of that happening. When leases hit $40 an acre, then we know we're there.
I also think overall participation will likely drop in the NLP. There was simply nobody hunting around us after Nov. 17 in 2003 and 2004 and the store sales were 98% steelhead related after the 17th. Five years ago hunting sales were decent through Thanksgiving. Even some of the regulars at our camp opted out of Thansgiving weekend.
Just ask some mom and pop sporting goods stores in this area or elswhere in the NLP if they have a lot of leftover "orange" in the last 2 years and ask what they're thinking about doing next year. I've already talked to 2 stores. The consensus is lower inventory because the hunter numbers are falling. And noticable at that. At least I should say that there's something going on that business owners can just feel. Sure, part of it is lower sales, less license sales and less people in town. But part of it is the attitude of defeat in these hunters words that makes you believe them when they say they don't know how they can justify coming to Baldwin to hunt anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom/sky is falling. Hunter numbers are dropping anyways. But I will bet anyone that we will continue to see a steady and gradual decline of hunter numbers and hours afield in the NLP. As Splitshot said, there's now big deer numbers in the SLP that were never there, things change. And the deer in the SLP aren't going anywhere soon, at least in the next 15 years. It's human nature to seek the most green pasture.
And how much of that hunter decline is the casual opening 2 day hunter just aging and dropping out of the sport? I don't know. More than likely, having 500,000 serious deer hunters in the future can probably keep the herd in check, with a tailoring of regulations. But IMHO, the glory days of the "up north" deer camp exodus from 1945-mid 1990's is over. And I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that I believe it's happening at an exponential pace.
And I do believe that MDNR is very aware of this and trying to figure out how best to solve the situation. My guess is that we'll see some tweeking of the regs in the coming 2-5 years to reflect that concern.

[fishin' fin]

I will never leave the Northern Forests for Farmland either. I am actually considering moving shop to the UP from the NELP. Our camp has noticed the dramatic decline in the TB area and has fractured as a result. I have also noticed less hunters in the woods as well. I believe it can only get better from here in the Northern regions. I hope I am not being too optimistic.
I thoroughly agree! I bought some land in the NELP recently. Kind of a "buy low sell high" thing. Sick deer or not, It should get better eventually. I also haven't seen land go down in value lately.

[jk hillsdale]

I think we're in the early stages of a lease war that will have few winners.

And remember that money always talks. Many of places we had access to in Illinois got leased by others who outbid everyone else. There was a great 250 acre lease right on the Illinois river that our farmer friend had leased for years and then someone came and offered $10,000 for a year. The owner said whoever can match that can have the lease, because the owner still wanted a local to have it. Needless to say, we can't hunt that spot anymore. I suspect that the prime spots in southern Michigan are only in the initial stages of that happening. When leases hit $40 an acre, then we know we're there.

My guess is that the quality of hunting in S. MI will need to greatly improve before it generates a lease war akin to premier spots such as Illinois. I do agree that the likelihood of at least an escalation in lease prices is very probable.

To me, the greatest probability is that when individuals stop going north to deer camp, some if not many of them will hang it up, and stop hunting altogether. My perception is that going north is such a different experience, I've often watched friends stop hunting altogether within a year or two after they stopped going to deer camp. Although they were pleased with how many deer they were seeing once they started hunting in S. MI., the experience as a whole really seemed lacking to them. They came to realize that what they really loved about deer camp didn't exist in any recognizable form when they left home in the morning, went hunting, and then had to come back home again and deal with all the hassles of life that they enjoyed a temporary reprieve from at camp.

[WILDCATWICK]

I think you'll see that many more leaving and heading south.

Oh boy can't wait! I have an excellent piece of property that really can only be trespassed from one side. Every year I have an amazing amount of tresspassers. The property has signes all over the place the gate to the property is always locked...even if I'm there. Yet it never fails. So every year I spend gun season up north on public land. It is amazing I should see less people on private property then on public. But I see less on public!
I can't wait until next year. I agree it's going to get worse down here.

[Adam Waszak]

I agree with Bob here I live in Clinton cty and there are a lot of great deer hunting parcels if you have the cash just as there is for pheasants and turkey etc. The deer I see every week on my way to work in October are better than any buck I have ever seen in Baldwin and they are common too. Not easy to kill but they are there. 2 years ago hunting in Clinton county I saw 7 different bucks in the first 2 days of the archery deer season which is probably more bucks than I have seen in Baldwin in 4 years. The money talks option is definitely there but there is still access now but in 4 years I doubt it. Will this better up north? I hope so cause can't get much worse than this past year but I do beleive there is something special about heading north for deer camp and I will continue to do so. If you are antler hungry though you better head south......then again if you are hungry for venison, you may want to head south too :lol:
AW

[Pinefarm]

I guess we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. As I said, don't take this the wrong way. I think it's really going to even out up here. We're going to continue to have less deer, which is a good thing, correct? But in the future, we'll have normal hunting pressure instead of an orange vest on every stump, which we've somehow taken as acceptably normal. Having hunting pressure match what the herd can tolerate shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. The SLP has more deer and too many deer. That's where more hunters need to be. They shouldn't be in the NLP in greater numbers picking over less and younger deer.
I realize that hunting camp is a major part of deer hunting. But deer season has purpose bigger than chili and card games. The whole point of a deer season is so that state game agency's can control the deer herd. If the SLP herd isn't brought under control and the NLP hunting pressure stays high, you'll see earn a buck tags and September doe seasons in the SLP and one 10pt or better tag in the NLP.
The whole thread started by NorthJeff saying "people are leaving". All I'm doing is reporting that we're seeing the exact same by us and trying to explain why. I'm not necessarily suggesting people leave. So please don't shoot the messenger. However, it doesn't matter because there's nothing I can do to stop it anyways.
Just an FYI, according to MDNR the whole state lost 4% of it's deer hunters last year and we'd been averaging around a 1.5% loss since around 1998. That's hunters who'd bought tags in the past and bought no form of deer tag in 2004. Anyone know how that broke down by region? I'd guess that the SLP is stable or growing and the NLP and UP took the bulk of that reduction. I think a 4% loss, in one year, is a huge negative hit and a cause for concern. Anyone care to wager what the reduction will be in 2005? I'm going to guess another 3.5%.
Of course, there's always the question of how many of those hunters left due to the greying of America. Also, how many are older hunters and thought it a little too risky to be in the north woods and decided to stay closer to home and how many just stopped and retired from hunting completely?
All we do know is that for the second straight year, the SLP accounted for more bucks and does killed that the NLP and UP combined. So the shift is already is high gear IMHO. (Sorry, couldn't pass on an easy pun) ;)

[Adam Waszak]

Bob how many hunters have left because their property are dmn near void of deer now? That is where the DNR needs to look at what they are doing right and wrong.....you know where I am coming from not attacking the messenger just a question that I wish someone would have a good answer for. I agree with 100% of you post.

AW

[jk hillsdale]

Just an FYI, according to MDNR the whole state lost 4% of it's deer hunters last year and we'd been averaging around a 1.5% loss since around 1998. That's hunters who'd bought tags in the past and bought no form of deer tag in 2004. Anyone know how that broke down by region? I'd guess that the SLP is stable or growing and the NLP and UP took the bulk of that reduction. I think a 4% loss, in one year, is a huge negative hit and a cause for concern. Anyone care to wager what the reduction will be in 2005? I'm going to guess another 3.5%.

I agree completely that 4% is a huge hit. I'd be particularly interested in whether the numbers are reducing at a similar pace in most other states. If they're experiencing the same thing, then it might simply be demographics at work. On the other hand, if most states are holding steady or even growing in numbers, then our decline would most likely be a reflection of decreased hunter satisfaction.

[Pinefarm]

Adam, that's a question we don't have an answer for. But keep an open mind. MDNR has been very clear that we'd better get used to the deer herd being around it's present size. The old over-population days of 1980-1996 are over and never to return. That only causes problems if we have the huge hunting presure that we're accustomed to. If hunting pressure drops, less deer isn't a problem from the hunter stand point. Make any sense? That's just from a hunter "seeing deer" stand point, I'm not arguing about what's best for the herd.
Before, if we had 30 guys in a section on gun opener, it didn't matter because we had 60 DPSM and people saw and killed deer in big numbers. But if we're going to have 25-30 DPSM, can we still have 30 hunters hunting them? I think that answer is no, around 10-15 hunters per section would be better.
Remember, hunters came up here in the first place because it was deerpark funland and one could see 30 deer a day. Now that that is over, why does anyone think it odd that more hunters would choose to go to wherever the new deerpark funland is now? Public land is not the primary reason hunters came here because the bulk of hunters hunt private land.
Humans have a built in herd mentality. Hunting isn't any different when concerning the masses. If everyone yells about a green pasture somewhere, the locusts will desend and that place will eventually be ruined and then the masses will move to the next green pasture. Members on this site don't reflect the guy that buys his tag on Nov 14 and hunts about 10 hours all year. And sadly, I think there's more of them than us.

[Adam Waszak]

Bob again I agree with you on most points but, if this is the size of the deer herd up there that the DNR wants, there will be very few hunters in the area for a long time. I think they overkilled the Baldwin area and need to seriously reduce the doe kill for 2 years or so. I am not saying get it to 60 dpsm but I don't see there being 30 dpsm right now. Hunting pressure by us has been zilch for the past 3 years as it is so I really do not know what to expect for next year or the years to come after that I guess we will wait and see. I hope the DNR figures these numbers out up there so we can get to the huntin.

AW

[swampbuck]

as a resident of probably the most over hunted county in the northern lower {roscommon} I really hope that bob@bbt is correct .and I hope this trend continues forever. It really sucks to have people come up here for the opener to hunt what few deer we have, and then go back downstate and shoot a few more on their farms were we cant get permission to hunt.I have had serious problems with people from out of town trying to lay claim to the state land I hunt. how many of them do you think would let me go down and hunt their land while they are up here.

I dont want to sound like I am laying claim to state land. but the deer in southern michigan belong to us just as much as the deer in northern michigan belong to them.the difference is that we cant get access to the deer down there.

If you dont agree try walkin the proverbial mile in the shoes of someone who live in the north. and has to wade through a sea of orange to get to an area they have hunted all their lives.we have more visiting hunters in our county every november than the entire resident population.

[Joe Archer]

I have trouble trying to decide if there was less or more pressure in my area this year. Noticably, a few of the hunting camps were absent along the private road heading to my cabin. I didn't see many hunters during bow season either. My neighbor up north has been heading south to hunt the gun opener for the past couple of years as well. However, since I tagged out during bow I headed south on 11/14. HOLY SHIZZIT! Along the five mile stretch where the road becomes public heading out to the major cross-road... It looked like I was driving through Cedar Point during a pumkin festival! Literally, it was sickening! I would say there was as much pressure as I have ever seen and probably more.
Anyway, if hunters do quit hunting areas it will just lead to less harvest. Lower harvest will lead to herd recovery. Ultimately hunters will return for the oportunity to see deer. I will keep hunting my property because that is where I hunt. As for expence of a lease... $500.00 beats the heck out of my taxes which have risen from a little over $300.00 a few years ago to almost $1000.00 today. <----<<<

[Splitshot]

I think there must be a reason that almost all the friends I have hunt and fish. Life isn’t about money, fame or a big house, it is about memories. So when I have lunch with a close friend we always have something to talk about. I wouldn’t consider Bob a close friend yet, but time permitting, we can talk for hours about the things we care about.

I enjoy listening to Bob’s stories because I understand like he does the importance reliving those events. If you don’t repeat them, you might forget. Anyway what value is there to a good story unless it is told. My wife doesn’t quite understand why I listen to an entire story that I have heard 10 times before. I always tell her that it’s plus side of having Alzheimers when in reality it is just our way of keeping the memories alive. Mutual respect.

I have over 40 years invested in the woods, lakes and streams in the Baldwin, Dublin Wellston area and even though things are changing, I’ll be staying. My kids have a vested interest and now I’m passing it on to my grand kids. It will be different for them, but with a little luck they will make their own memories and share them like I have with their families.

My grandson only 7 now, will appreciate taking a mature buck, even if it’s only a 6 point or a doe. If he takes a 160 class, that will be cool, but outsmarting a mature buck with a small rack is just as good as the 160 buck although the 160 will look better. Some guys won’t think that way, but that’s okay. It isn’t the deer that counts, but the experience of trying to get it that counts.

I don’t care if all the good land gets leased because what other people do with their land is their business. I know I can take a deer on public land and take more pride in that than the guy who shoots a booner behind some fence. And my friends, well they feel the same way.

Find a good fishing or hunting area and people will come until it gets overcrowded or the resource is diminished. That’s the way it has always been. Most of us hunt and fish because we want to catch a few or kill something. We don’t have to do it every time to feel rewarded either.

I’ll tell you something that is sad if your interested. An aunt on my wife’s side of the family had 240 acres of some of the best hunting land near Fowlerville. The aunt’s husband died and her daughter married a non hunter who convinced her not to let us hunt because he thought we might shoot the house. She complied.

My x brother in law has a farm in Vermontville. Lots of big bucks and deer all over the place. Stopped me from hunting because I shot a doe. Someone told him that wasn’t cool! They will never understand why I am not as friendly as I used to be. Go figure!

We are blessed with more public land than almost any other state. I think our future lies in helping improve the habitat on these public lands. We know the DNR doesn’t have the manpower and it is rewarding to spend time trying to make it better. And yes it can be done. Ducks Unlimited does a lot of work on public land so there is a precedent. Anyway more time spent in the woods can’t be all bad.

[Ferg]

I moved three posts - to new threads concerning leasing - I tried to get all three together, but my fledgling attempt didn't work so well - but I'm trying.

ferg....

[Pinefarm]

One of the problems with the internet is that it's often hard to convey exactly what you mean. And if you're off even just a little bit in your explaination, the entire point is aptly misconstrued by the reader. So, I'm still trying to convey exactly what I mean. I don't mean that hunters are going to completely abandon the NLP. However, I do mean that there is a both a physical and, more importantly, a mental shift into thinking that the SLP is where you want to go for the overall best hunting, in a purely deer-centric way. I don't think anyone argues that overall, the "action" is going to be a lot hotter in the SLP. "Overall" being the operative word. Think of it this way, when I was a kid, all you heard about was how guys in my dad's and grandpa's age went to the UP to deer hunt. The UP was THE place to go. Then, around the mid-1960's/early 1970's it seems like there was a lot of guys that suddenly shifted way from the UP, never to return. That shift was probably because the deer numbers started growing in the NLP by the mid-1970's and the long drive to the UP became tougher in an ever increasing busy America. Have you seen the research on how the average American works far more today than in even 1970? For the most part, guys don't take 2 weeks off for gun season like they used to in 1965 or 1970. And those numbers only trend worse with the average hourly work week growing longer, so more guys will have less time and paying to lease land close to home isn't as much as a luxury as it is a necessity, if you want to hunt much.
So what I'm saying is, just as the UP is a ghost of itself from the former deer camp glory days of 1945-1970, I think the NLP will follow suit. Again, that's not to say that 200,000 serious hunters won't continue to have the best deer camp experience ever in the NLP. I just mean that the NLP will cease to be the first choice for more and more hunters every year. When up until 2-3 years ago, there was no other choice for many hunters because to even consider going anywhere else was like blasphemy, other than an out of state hunt only after most of Michigan's hunting was done. But now more and more people are choosing the SLP for the big symbolic days like firearm and archery opener in ever increasing numbers. And I know several people that recently sold out and pulled up stakes from my area to hunt elsewhere. And these are guys that have been hunting here since the 1970's and the last I'd expect to leave. The idea of "go south young man" is in the minds of a lot of people up here and it was not there 24 months ago. And I don't mean that locals up here are thinking about spending 100% of their time in the SLP. But finding a way to hunt 30% of the time in the SLP is something that many of us plan to look into. Or at least dream about. Joint leases of 6 guys leasing 200 acres as a time share may be something many of us try to do.
Anyways, I just wanted to clarify that. And as I stated, I have nothing but good feelings about how the hunting in the NLP will improve. If you think of it, if there's just a 15% reduction in hunting pressure, that may be all we need in the NLP. Figure that lends itself to roughly 7-8% less yearling bucks getting killed every year. That will really make a huge difference IMHO. And maybe the pressure wont be so bad that half the deer you'd see on the 1st 2 days of gun season aren't panting with their tongue's hanging out because they run into a hunter every 200 yards. That would be a good change to see and a little less pressure may go a long way to improving the hunt for all parties.
I hope this clears up what I've been trying to convey, if that makes any sense.

[davidshane]

swampbuck,

I think you will get a little bit of that dream. I've hunted Roscommon for 25 years and have seen big numbers and small ones. I seen the pressure from hunters go up and down also. This year, I did see slightly less hunters than in years past, but only a slight decrease.

However, for the last 10 years or so, that area has sounded like a war zone during the opener of rifle. This year was so incredibly different. In years past, I would hear over 100 shots in the first 1-2 hours of opening day. This year I bet I did not hear more that 20 all day. This lack of shoting wasn't from a lack of guns in the woods and it sure the hell wasn't from everyone practicing QDM. There's a lot less deer in Roscommon now and a lot of hunters got a wake up call this past season. I'd be shocked if atleast a small percentage didn't look for greener pastures somewhere else next year.

As for me and the four guys I hunt with, we'll see you there. We'll hunt a little longer, a little harded, and maybe a little smarter; and if all goes well, we'll be eating venison in the new year.

[Swamp Monster]

For the most part, guys don't take 2 weeks off for gun season like they used to in 1965 or 1970. And those numbers only trend worse with the average hourly work week growing longer, so more guys will have less time and paying to lease land close to home isn't as much as a luxury as it is a necessity, if you want to hunt much.
.

Exactly! I own land up north...well Mecosta county so psuedo north maybe?? Enough deer to keep me coming back and the friends I have up there and camp make it all worthwhile. We still have a good deer population, though it isn't what it used to be a decade ago. Thats ok though, herd reduction was a necessity.
Anyway, I live 3 hours from my hunting land, too far to get up there as much as I would like, so I lease here in southern Michigan to increase my oppurtunities, plus it's where I concentrate my efforts on the type of animal I want to hunt. I know a lot of guys that now hunt both down here and up north now, for a numeber of reasons, but time and other obligations are a big part of it. They still get up north, but not for extended periods like years past.
I think Bob's observation is spot on! To hunt as often as we like, we are forced to hunt closer to home....which luckily in my case is pretty nice! I will always have the desire to go north, hunting down here is great but it just is not the same. Hard to put into words, but I know many understand.

[Pinefarm]

Swamp, you're story is exactly what I was trying to convey. Hope it's more clear to everyone else now. ;)