Never lose an arrowed deer again!

[Lee Gerdermain]

Did you know, in the State of Mississippi, that is still perfectly legal to use poison-tipped arrows to assist a hunter using a bow and arrow? It is the only place that allows it, and apparently a fairly common practice at that. Simply incredible!!

Actually, it is not "poison" at all however, the locals commonly refer it to that way. Rather, it is an extremely powerful drug some there also call "anectin"; which is yet another slangism for Anectine, or succinylclorine chloride. It is a muscle relaxant that, once in the bloodstream and in a sufficient dose, will make the involuntary organs relax to the point where they stop functioning the way they are supposed to. The two most noticeable of these organs, of course, would be the heart and lungs. It is extremely fast acting—takes seconds actually, and wears off after 10 minutes or so. By then however, it is too late as the animal is dead, having suffocated within those 10 minutes.

It takes quite an extremely large dose for death to occur in a human being should it somehow enter the bloodstream. Mississippian’s know however, that the appropriate dosage for to kill a deer is approximately 10 mg Anectine for every 100 pound of animal. Imagine that! The drug does not affect the deer meat in anyway.

Most troubling is the fact that the drug need only enter the bloodstream anywhere on the deer ‘s body to do its work. So, if you make a good shot; dead deer! Make a marginal shot; dead deer! Make a poor shot; dead deer! Hit the deer in the foot and draw blood? That's right: dead deer!

Now here comes the best part. Anectine is available by prescription only!
Thus, a large black-market trade goes on in sporting good stores etc, selling highly watered-down vials of the stuff rendering it less effective. However, if you get the original stuff from a pharmacy or vet, then there's a pretty good chance that you'll find your deer, even if you happen to make a bad shot!

[Gobblerman]

This to me is not hunting. If a hunter cannot place a shot in the vitals then we should not be shooting. Some shots do not find their mark, however deer are tough and they do live dispite being hit. Also I would think that hunting with posion on the end of the arrow would take some of the excitement out of the hunt. Personally I'll stick to the 125 grain G2's and coming from my Martin bow.

[Bowhunter30]

I second that thought Gobblerman! Doesn't fit into my definition of hunting, takes the excitement out of it.

Nothing like the feeling and anticipation after sticking one, then talking yourself out of immediately tracking it. Then there is the track and find(hopefully) and when you see that deer - WOW, not too many things in life that get me going like that.

[Lee Gerdermain]

I second that thought Gobblerman! Doesn't fit into my definition of hunting, takes the excitement out of it.

Nothing like the feeling and anticipation after sticking one, then talking yourself out of immediately tracking it. Then there is the track and find(hopefully) and when you see that deer - WOW, not too many things in life that get me going like that. Apparently, some in Mississippi don't see it that way.

Look:http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4633

[Grouse Hunter]

Seems like this could be a problem on a marginal hit. Heart relaxes, pumps less, less bleeding, little to no blood trail.

[Bowhunter30]

These are the anti-hunters posting messages, acting as a concerned hunter.:lol:

Hey, if some think it is ok, then let them use it. I for one want to be challenged, not only by all the senses of the deer, but by my own short comings. If I have something to aid my kill, even if a poor shot, then why spend hours practicing? Seems a bit lazy to me.

Personally, I don't need that, since I spend hours upon hours shooting each week. Dont' get me wrong, I have made some bad shots - buck fever and regretfully admit to losing two deer in my life. Both early in my career, which is the driving force behind me being such a perfectionist when it comes to shooting. Someone not practicing prior to going out, that's inhumane to the animal.

[rodboy]

Sounds to good to be true for the hunters who don't shhot well..

I would never do it, Is it even good to eat?

[Pinefarm]

Where are the calls of protecting this outdated activity because "it's tradition!"? ;) :p :lol:

[Erik]

Man, I read the title of this thread and thought "wow this sounds like some good information". Then I open it up only to read about posion tipped arrows. This isn't anything new. This stuff has been around since Fred Bear was still alive. Fred didn't like it. He thought it gave people the wrong image of bow hunters, and I agree with him.
Don't forget, firearm hunters loose deer too. And anyone who tells you differently hasn't been hunting very many years.

[trout]

I remember Howard Shelly and Mort Neff having a segment on this stuff.

"Poison arrows" have been around for a long time although I doubt you'll see their use here in Michigan anytime soon.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Where are the calls of protecting this outdated activity because "it's tradition!"? ;) :p :lol:
You mean to tell me, Bob, that through the evolution of time, earnest and well-meaning sportpeople saw the need to alter the management of their resource by changing something that heretofore, had been totally legal and acceptable? In other words, they re-examined, and ultimately changed the "status quo"? Incredible!

Now,where else have I seen this same concept suggested around these parts recently?


(good catch)

[Pigpen69]

:lol: So if you didnt want the hassel of making that all important double lunger, you can take a blow gun out and just poison them. No loss of meat. Would that still be hunting??? :lol: :lol:

[trout]

Certain S. E. American Natives did in fact use blow guns.

[Pigpen69]

Certain S. E. American Natives did in fact use blow guns.
I actually did know that, History and gym were the only two classes i paid attention. That would start a big argument right there. I say no thats not hunting if ya just poison em, but I bet sitting bull would disagree. :lol:

[Alpha Male]

As a young boy growing up in an urban environment, I was nevertheless smitten with the call of the wild. I was obsessed with hunting.

I have very vivid memories of watching National Geographic specials on PBS in which the lives of 'untouched' tribes of people in remote places were documented.

To a boy in the second grade, boobies and monkey killin' make for some goooood watchin'.

After absorbing what I could from this educational programming, I set about to making my own blow gun, and my own poison darts.

My mother was both impressed and quite disturbed that a lad of my age would know how to cook down the red and green leaves of the rhubarb plants in our neighbors garden. And try. I got as far as pulling out the saucepan before parental control measures were implemented.

The following semester my parents got me into a school that 'channeled' those energies for more constructive purposes. Thankfully.

I've never tried to hunt with poison arrows since then. True story. :xzicon_sm

[DrifterChuck]

As previously stated succinylclorine chloride has been around for a long time. It's a drug used by veterinarians to imobolize animals such as horses during castration. It does not relieve the sensation of pain so a local anesthetic is given in addition.

There are a lot of factors that can affect the amount of the drug powder that gets absorbed by the deer. If a less than lethal dose is administered the deer may eventually go down, but still be very much alive. Now our hunter comes along and begins the field dressing process. The animals in this case are fully conscious, terrified, experiencing great pain, and yet unable to move. Not a very pleasant way to go is it?

An other concern is accidental injury to a human. Either by a self-inflicted wound or being shot accidentially. A wound that may otherwise be non life threatening could very likely be lethal. An other good reason to ban it's use.

As mentioned above a bad hit on an animal or poor penetration may not leave a good blood trail and be lost. Many deer under normal conditions can survive these wounds, but if the pod/drugs were used then it's possible they would still be lost but die from the drug. Another minus.

Just because something was tried back in the 60's and discarded in virtually every state except Mississippi doesn't make it "traditional" or worthy of defense.

Why am I not surprised that many of the same people who want crossbows in the bow season would find this method of taking game appealing as well.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Why am I not surprised that many of the same people who want crossbows in the bow season would find this method of taking game appealing as well.
Drifter Chuck,

Think back (or look forward, as applicable) to 10th-grade English class. There, we learned the use of many literary tools such as "ill iteration", "simile", "onomatopoeia" and my favorite one of all time, the "metaphor". Ah, the metaphor; my heart just glows when I think of how wonderful this essential tool within the Queen's language allows us to become. But, in case you weren't paying attention or, simply absent that day (same thing), allow me to refresh your memory:

Metaphor: "The application of a word or phrase to an object or a concept that it does not literally denote, in order to suggest comparison with another object or concept"

You know, there comes a time when a teacher after giving a lesson, looks around the classroom and says to him/herself "They just don't get it". So, rather than interrogate the class any further he/she simply blurts out the answer by saying: "Look class, listen up, this is what the @#%#!*& author is saying here". In the long run, sometimes it is the only way to teach. Fortunately BOB@BBT is not one of these type students. He caught my metaphoric attempts in a nanosecond

So Drifter Chuck, for your benefit and MAYBE others, this is what the author was trying to say:

This thread has as much to do about poison arrows as the price of tea in china! It was my high-lever attempt (perhaps too high-level) to illustrate that even in the world of whitetail deer hunting, things are not cut in stone. Ideas, concepts, tools, rules, everything is constantly evolving. We make it evolve, not the other way around.

100 years ago, perhaps using "poison" to harvest a deer was more generally accepted. Obviously, through time, some found this practice to be less and less acceptable, to the point where today, only one state, Mississippi, still allows it. But that's not the point. The “point” is that the "status quo" which 100 years ago allowed for the random use of "poison”, through time, reexamined its position regarding this particular issue and guess what? You guessed it: change occurred.

My position on the crossbow issue is not a hard-lined one; I merely have stated that there is a matter of concern in my mind that a significant number of "baby boomer" are leaving, and/or about to leave the ranks of bow hunting for all the reasons stated previously (please go back to the start of my other thread, and read again--thank you).

Next time, I will use declarative sentences to illustrate my point. However, I still stand committed to matters at hand: There needs to be a healthy and objective reexamination of the status quo surrounding the use of crossbows within the context I have described. That's all there was to it.

FYI---There will be a POP quiz in the morning.;)

[farmlegend]

Great post, Lee. I can see that you and I think along the same lines.

I appreciate your excellent grasp of the english language; sometimes I wonder if the subject is even taught at all in our schools any longer.

Your posts here on this thread have illustrated an important point, highly pertinent to hunting and resource management, and, in what I regard to be an entertaining fashion. Good show. It's members like you that keep me coming back to MSF. :)

[utan]

to DrifterChuck and the rest of us who are not worthy.



It doesn't pay to get into a urinating contest with a skunk.

[2-BIG]

You folks would be doing yourselves a favor if you just didn't respond to any of Lee or Bob's threads. None of us are even close to being smart enough to debate with their superior intelect. ;)

[Thebear_78]

Lee-

No matter how you babble about status quo, change, poison, or the intricacies of the english language it still doesn't change the fact a crossbow does not belong in archery season. It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully. I guess I would rather sit in a tree with a camera in my hand during archery season than a crossbow. If its the time spent out in nature that they are truely missing then they should be perfectly content to carry a good 35mm zoom camera. They get to spend time out and about, they get to enjoy the beautiful Oct weather, and the challenge of taking a good photograph. If on the other hand they want a more efficient weapon for killing an animal why bother with the crossbow at all, use a gun, or a type of snare.

By this same line of thought why have fly only sections of rivers, why ban snagging. It is obviously easier to master the high art of snagging salmon/steelhead with a weighted treble hook than fly tying, drift fishing, or any other finess type of fishing. Why not head them off at the pass and put a few nets across the mouth of the PM, clog all the fish up in a big pool behind the nets and have snaggers come in and take thier fill. A lot of people don't have the time to master fly casting, or have the ability to detect a subtle bite while drift fishing. Some people don't have the mobility to wade some of our faster or log and rock strewn rivers. A lot of people in the upper 50s have to give up steelheading because they have bad backs or knees, they should be able to snagg at the predescribed net traps. This way they get the joy of the "fight" and a tasty piece of fish to feed thier families. Native people have been using nets, poisons, fish traps, spears, and snagging hooks for thousands of years.



I was so inspired by your english lesson that I felt I would try one of these "metaphors". I in no way advocate snagging or netting in our salmon and steelhead rivers for the same reason that I don't advocate crossbows in archery season, I value the manor in which I participate in an activity more than the bag limit. Here is a simile for you.....crossbow is to archery as weighted treble is to fishing. I used the fishing metaphor to try to let some people who don't particularly care about archery but would fishing to see where those of us passionate about archery are coming from.

[Lee Gerdermain]

You folks would be doing yourselves a favor if you just didn't respond to any of Lee or Bob's threads. None of us are even close to being smart enough to debate with their superior intelect. (sp:"intellect") ;)
"Proventriculus" It's nothing more than a really big word about how wild birds eat seed, never digest it, and then simply poop it out without receiving any nutritional value.

2_Big, if you have thoroughly read, and understood, anything that has been posted here, then, the above statement would not apply. Think about it.

Again, please stay on topic here. OK? I/we have!

.

[2-BIG]

No Dorothy there is no Oaland County. There is an Oakland County. Lee, I understood perfectly when I read your post. You are still thinking you are superior to people that are not in agreement with you. Same stuff just a different scenario. ;) You really shouldn't be correcting other peoples spelling until you learn how to spell Oakland. :lol: Have a nice day. :)

[Lee Gerdermain]

[QUOTE=Thebear_78]

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully." [QUOTE=Thebear_78]

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully" [QUOTE=Thebear_78]

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully." [QUOTE=Thebear_78]

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully." [QUOTE=Thebear_78]Lee-

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully." [QUOTE=Thebear_78]

"It is unfortunate that some people may become too old, fat, lazy, disabled, or any other reason/excuse that they would like to use for thier desire to use a crossbow in archery season. I would hope that they would just have the dignity to bow out gracefully." [QUOTE=Thebear_78]


(if you truely mean what you say here, then, I will pray for you)

[DrifterChuck]

Lee,

I came across this thread at 3:30 AM and thought here we go again. Being a little bleary eyed at that time of the morning I missed some key words such as "Most troubling is the fact----" and completely missed your intent.

Then when I read Bob's reply which seemed to take a jab at those who are trying to defend bow season, I took offence to his comment as well. I know very well how he and Steve at BB&T feel about the PM and how they would fight to protect it. I thought how can someone who would fight so hard to preserve their river be so cavalier about polluting and changing the rules governing someone elses sport. So I sought to educate those who might think this would be a good thing. In doing so I also took a swipe at those who always seem to want to take the easy way when it comes to hunting or fishing.

I also missed your "Preeeecisely" which should have clued me in. I consider myself well "skunked" and humbly beg your forgiveness for jumping in on this one half cocked and overtired.

[2-BIG]

Lee, you should see a doctor. You are stuttering and appear to be hard of hearing. Seems like you are yelling.Your last post kinda looks like an eye chart. Are you sure you're not really an eye doctor in Oaland County! :lol: You rascal! :lol:

[Lee Gerdermain]

No Dorothy there is no Oaland County. There is an Oakland County. Lee, I understood perfectly when I read your post. You are still thinking you are superior to people that are not in agreement with you. Same stuff just a different scenario. ;) You really shouldn't be correcting other peoples spelling until you learn how to spell Oakland. :lol: Have a nice day. :)
You even misspelled my own misspell! I said, "Oalnad", not "Oaland". If you are going to correct my misspell, for crying out loud, get it wrong the first time, OK?

[DrifterChuck]

Better get some sleep tonight if there's a Pop Quiz in the AM.

[2-BIG]

Just playing your game Lee. ;) I guess you are as brilliant as you claim! :D

[2-BIG]

Chuck, don't appolagize to Lee. :bash: It just makes his ego inflate even more! :yikes:

[Thebear_78]

Lee-

Huh??????

[Lee Gerdermain]

Good catch.

And, good night.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Chuck, don't appolagize (sp; apologize) to Lee. :bash: It just makes his ego inflate even more! :yikes:


"Good night, sweet prince" (W. Shakespeare)

[Thebear_78]

I have known DrifterChuck for many years and have always used him as an example of what it is to have class. Unfortunetly I am still young and stubborn and couldn't possibly imagine apologizing to somebody who responded to me in such a condescending, smug, obnoxious way as you did to him. I'd probably give you a good smack, thats onomatopoeia, right!

[2-BIG]

Good night Lee. Yew r about as perdictibell as it gits! :lol: Have fun spell checkin this powst! :dizzy:

[DrifterChuck]

Josh, thanks for the kind words but I did kind of screw up here. I don't know Lee like most of you seem to, so I thought it best to admit my mistake and apologize.

There was however, something in his tone when rebuking this student that didn't set well and definitely gives some insight into how he views himself and others he considers less educated.

I'm sure there will be another day and another topic.

2-Big-

Sorry to disappoint you on the "Bashing" issue, but until I get to know Lee a little better I thought the honey and eating crow route was the best way to go. Besides the last thread we were on got pulled so I'm trying to be good.

[2-BIG]

Chuck, I tried the honey and eating crow thing with Lee before and got no where. Just tried to help you out. Read any of his posts on any of these threads and he is pretty easy to figure out. The way he likes to play the word games with those who oppose him, I believe he must be practicing to get into politics! :lol: Take care! :)

[Erik]

Man, I read the title of this thread and thought "wow this sounds like some good information".

Now I find out it's really a lesson in the english language?
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say "theres to much BS on this site anymore".
I've spoke my peace on the crossbow issue before. I do not wish to take part in that argument anymore. Like QDMs antler restrictions, I wish to have nothing to do with these arguments anymore. They leave me feeling angry, and cause me to loose sight of what I really enjoy about hunting.
The rest of you may argue as much as you like, but be forewarned from someone who has been there before. "There are no winners in these arguments".

[Pinefarm]

As long as we're looking words up, try "how to close a thread 101".
Closed.