Crossbow Season?

[Munsterlndr]

I asked this question on another thread that was going on the archery forum but that thread was closed before I got any response. I don’t want to rehash the merits of legalizing the use of crossbows during bow season or discuss the pro’s or con’s of crossbows in general, we can save those debates for some slow day when everyone is really bored. :lol:

As an alternative to lumping crossbow season in with any of the current seasons would you be in favor of creating a separate, crossbows only, season?

If the answer is no, what current season would you prefer to lump crossbows in with?

If you are in favor of a dedicated crossbow season, using a hypothetical length of two weeks, where would you fit it into the current calender?

Let’s try and keep it focused on just these three questions and give the moderators a break and keep the discussion civil and on topic.

____________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Bwana]

If you are in favor of a dedicated crossbow season, using a hypothetical length of two weeks, where would you fit it into the current calender?


I would be in favor of this added season. I would have it immediately follow Muzzle Loading or in early January. IMHO, Late Season is one of the best hunting times of the year.

[SR-Mechead]

I would put it with the rifle season, because if someone has a bad arm or shoulder a x bow is lighter than a rifle.

[Munsterlndr]

:confused: I'm not sure why this topic was moved from the whitetail forum to the archery forum. It applies to all deer hunters not just bow hunters. The underlying topic is the allocation of seasons and that applies to all of us. I'm disappointed by this move since I'm guessing that the responses from those that frequent the archery forum will differ substantially from those who frequent the whitetail forum and the whole idea of the topic was to get a sampling of opinion on this topic from the entire hunting community, not just the archery fraternity. Please consider moving it back where it belongs.

______________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Adam Waszak]

I really do not know but i do not want it with the archery season. You can use it for gun season it you want or if you are incapable of bowhunting. But if you make yet another season then I will have to buy one and I don't want to do that :lol:

AW

[john warren]

no more seasons! put crossbows in with guns or muzzleloaders where they belong.

[PWood]

2 week traditional bow season
2 week compound bow season
2 week crossbow season
2 week firearm season (rifle and shotgun)
2 week traditional muzzleloader season
2 week inline muzzleloader season
Why not?

[Airoh]

Munsterlndr, Gotta agree with you on one thing.

Your post has nothing to do with archery.

[SR-Mechead]

2 week traditional bow season
2 week compound bow season
2 week crossbow season
2 week firearm season (rifle and shotgun)
2 week traditional muzzleloader season
2 week inline muzzleloader season
Why not?




New compound $700.00
Crossbow $500.00
rifle $750.00
2 muzzel loaders $500.00
The big D Half of your saving !!! :lol:

[evil_opie]

I'm with PWood, the only other weapon I'd have to get would be the crossbow. I've been thinking about getting one anyway to help eliminate my gound hog problem.

[trout]

I would be in favor of a season for crossbows.

[Sib]

We have a crossbow season, it runs from Nov. 15-30. I would not be interested in changing the current crossbow season.

[Brian S]

I would make all of December open to crossbows.

Why not? The woods are practically empty during Dec.

[Bob S]

If you are in favor of a dedicated crossbow season, using a hypothetical length of two weeks, where would you fit it into the current calender?

September 17-30. Two weeks. Doesn`t interfere with any existing weapon season.

[Hawker]

Allowing an expensive piece of equipment to be used for only two weeks is awfully limiting. Even a muzzleloader can be used for rifle, it's own season and late antlerless. I know guys who do so since their muzzleloaders have more range than their shotguns.

At the very least, include crossbows during late antlerless and late bow.

[Luv2hunteup]

Quote by Bob S
September 17-30. Two weeks. Doesn`t interfere with any existing weapon season.

Acutally, those are the dates I was going to suggest for early doe season with firearms. No better way to reduce the herd where it's needed.

But back to the topic, Bob's idea has merit. This way bow hunters would not have to share their season which most seem to have a problem with.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Quote by Bob S


Acutally, those are the dates I was going to suggest for early doe season with firearms. No better way to reduce the herd where it's needed.

But back to the topic, Bob's idea has merit. This way bow hunters would not have to share their season which most seem to have a problem with.
I'd vote for that so long as during the "multi-utility hunting season" (notice that I didn't say "regular archery season" that any individual, having reached the age of 50 be permitted to use either a traditional bow, a compound bow and/or a crossbow. irrspective of any factor. After all, what we have now is truly a multi-utility season when one considers the disparity between the most basic traditional bow and the scorching edge technology attached to our compound bows.

[bucknduck]

Sept 17-30 sounds ok with me. I would never participate since I'm typically working on last minute preps for duck season around that time and won't hit the woods for bow season until mid Oct.

[FixedBlade]

I would let it ride with the archery season.

[john warren]

fok,,, bow season comes first because you have to get close with a bow and the deer aren't all riled up yet make it four weeks long, then two weeks of muzzleloaders and cross bows. then the rest of the season use what ever you like.

we already have special seasons for kids,which in my altered reality world belong with their father in regular season.

my reasoning is. a crossbow is not a bow in the normal definition of a bow. that is to say you do not have to hold it at fulldraw.it fitsmuch better with amuzzle loader in that it is the next step in the evolution of weapons. with simular capabilites.(not counting scoped inlines which really are modern weapons and should be treated as such.) next comes the modern rifle and shotgun.
you can use muzzle loaders and crossbows in a regular season with out disrupting anything.anything that is placed before bow season has strong effect on archers.

[Zakker]

2 week traditional bow season
2 week compound bow season
2 week crossbow season
2 week firearm season (rifle and shotgun)
2 week traditional muzzleloader season
2 week inline muzzleloader season
Why not?

By segragating the seasons we further lead to the segragation between the hunting community. There is already enough in-fightng amongst us. This is exactly what the antis would love.

Leave the seasons alone.

[One Eye]

I would make all of December open to crossbows.

Why not? The woods are practically empty during Dec.
Okay, please let me know where this is true? The public land that I hunt is far from empty in December.

For the question, we already have a crossbow season, and I am happy with that solution.

Dan

[Brian S]

One-Eye,

I rarely see anyone in the woods in December. This includes state land in Gladwin along with state land in Oakland.

"For the question, we already have a crossbow season, and I am happy with that solution.

Dan"

So what is it that you like about the crossbow option during rifle season?

Is it the challenge of getting real close to the deer while others are popping them off at over 100 yards?

Help us understand, if crossbows during rifle season make you happy, then I would think all of Dec would make you giggle like a little girl.

OR, Is it the idea of keeping people out of the woods in Dec that makes you happy?

Kinda like one of them closet antis.

Come clean One-Eye. Are you an Anti-Hunter?

[PWood]

John Warren Quote "bow season comes first because you have to get close with a bow and the deer aren't all riled up yet"

You have to get just as close with a crossbow.

I've practiced with my crossbow for three years and I still wouldn't attempt a shot at an animal over 35 yards away.

[WALLEYEvision]

By segragating the seasons we further lead to the segragation between the hunting community. There is already enough in-fightng amongst us. This is exactly what the antis would love.

Leave the seasons alone.
:yeahthat: Well said Zakker!

[Lee Gerdermain]

The key word is "integrating", not "segregating" (or excluding) hunters within and/or amongst the various seasons.

LG

[Thebear_78]

Let the crossbow fall in the rifle and muzzle loader seasons. I see no reason for a dedicated crossbow season.

[fairfax1]

These "crossbow/arrowgun" debates on various forums are all old news. Seemingly always initiated by some advocate -a hobbyist or a closet- merchant - of expanding the use of this weapon.

Thankfully, the DNR and the Michigan legislators are keeping a lid on expansion. Advocates of the weapon do have a dedicated season, a 16 day season running November 15th thru the 30th. In addition to that, those individuals who are hadicapped-qualified can use this equipment during the legitimate bow & arrow seasons. That seems enough.

I reject the argument put forward by the manufacturers and merchandisers that arrow-guns are 'archery' equipment. It is a shoulder mounted weapon with a ready-fire projectile. By definition, that is not archery.

I also reject the thread-worn argument that it will "expand" hunting opportunities. There are close to 100 days annually in which various deer hunter constituencies can kill the deer of their choice. In other words, there are 1 out of 4 days of the year some sporting method is allowed to take deer. That's pretty 'expanded' already.

Then, the argument that I find the most cynical...or perhaps, just misguided is the argument that we need arrow-guns to bolster our defense of hunting. It is fear-mongering. Use the anti-hunter as the boogey-man that more arrow-guns will eliminate. It is the fear-factor ploy used by many hookn'bullet magazines & hunter oriented associations. They use it to boost their circulation or to get folks to join the organization and pay dues. The fact is 'anti's' are not the major enemies of we hunters.....loss of habitat, the difficulty of access to hunting grounds, competing recreational opportunities to an increasingly urban population, and bad behavior by the slobs within our ranks .... those are the reason for the diminishing popularity of hunting sports. Not some tiny whiny East Coast animal protection group whose own actions often discredit their sincerity. ...... It's just easier to blame them rather take on the slob behavior or address the loss of habitat.

In the end, Michigan allows plenty of opportunities to use arrow-guns for those who choose to use 'em. The rest of us need to resist the commercial interests who initiate internet marketing tactics by posting forum threads.

[Munsterlndr]

If this topic is such a "tired thread on a dead topic" why are you compelled to contribute to it? :rolleyes:

I see that you must not have bothered to read the original post since I specifically requested that we not rehash the ongoing debate over crossbows. I asked two simple questions; are you in favor of a dedicated crossbow season or if not; which current season would you lump crossbow season in with?

You obviously are opposed to a dedicated crossbow season and would lump it in with firearm season. Fine. You could have limited your response to this answer but instead you decided to respond with meaningless polemic.

You then continue with totally baseless allegations made without a whit of evidence. This conspiracy theory that any crossbow advocate is a mole for crossbow manufacturers and that they are the sole driving force behind this debate is laughable. But I guess you feel that if you continue to repeat this unfounded assertion enough times that it will become accepted as fact.

Do us a favor and in the future try and stay on topic.

____________________________

Munsterlndr

Curmudgeon in Training

[Lee Gerdermain]

[ QUOTE=fairfax1]These "crossbow/arrowgun" debates on various forums are all old news. Seemingly always initiated by some advocate -a hobbyist or a closet- merchant - of expanding the use of this weapon.

Advocate? I should certainly hope we are! Anybody sure would appear to be silly if they merely posted their thoughts up here without some basis of conviction supporting them. Being an advocate is not wrong.

"Hobbyist"? Well, I'm one of those too. I love deer hunting!
However. I kind of think that you probably wanted to use the word "lobbyist". (we all make typos from time to time). That being the case, the inference that a lobbyist is evil is somewhat naive. But, as long as you're painting with such a broad "-ist" brush, might as well toss in some of the better ones such as: communist, atheist, environmentalist, and antagonist. The "ist" list is endless.
________________________

Thankfully, the DNR and the Michigan legislators are keeping a lid on expansion.

No, it is not the DNR per se, or the legislature. Rather, it is the NRC influenced, I would say in no small part by what????
Taaaadaaa: "a lobbyist"
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Advocates of the weapon do have a dedicated season, a 16 day season running November 15th thru the 30th. In addition to that, those individuals who are hadicapped-qualified can use this equipment during the legitimate bow & arrow seasons. That seems enough.

I am looking at the MDNR "Application to Take Game With a Crossbow" and nowhere does the word "handicapped" appear even one single time. To equate the word "disability" (which does appear on this document quite often) with "handicapped" is narrow thinking and, part of a flawed societal mindset, as well being relevant to regarding this issue. And, again, I think in your last sentence, the better word usage for "legitimate" to describe our bow and arrow season should be "established" versus something or some person being "illegitimate" (or, was that the intent?)
__________________________________________________ ______

I reject the argument put forward by the manufacturers and merchandisers that arrow-guns are 'archery' equipment. It is a shoulder mounted weapon with a ready-fire projectile. By definition, that is not archery.

First, let's stop the slang’s: If you stop using terms like "arrow guns" x-bows etc, I’ll not the words the traditional hunting society uses to describe modern-day compound bows or certain muzzleloaders. The implements are what they are!
__________________________________________________ ____________

I also reject the thread-worn argument that it will "expand" hunting opportunities. There are close to 100 days annually in which various deer hunter constituencies can kill the deer of their choice. In other words, there are 1 out of 4 days of the year some sporting method is allowed to take deer. That's pretty 'expanded' already.

There was a superb article in the December '04 issue of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine called "Grow or Die". Suggest everybody read that article in the context of expansion of hunting opportunities then make that statement.
__________________________________________________ _______

Then, the argument that I find the most cynical...or perhaps, just misguided is the argument that we need arrow-guns (there you go again) to bolster our defense of hunting. It is fear-mongering. Use the anti-hunter as the boogey-man that more arrow-guns will eliminate. It is the fear-factor ploy used by many hookn'bullet magazines & hunter oriented associations. They use it to boost their circulation or to get folks to join the organization and pay dues. The fact is 'anti's' are not the major enemies of we hunters.....loss of habitat, the difficulty of access to hunting grounds, competing recreational opportunities to an increasingly urban population, and bad behavior by the slobs within our ranks .... those are the reason for the diminishing popularity of hunting sports.

It sure seems that your words like "That seems enough" and "That's pretty 'expanded' already" and, "plenty of opportunities " when used in the same discussion surrounding "the diminishing popularity of hunting sports" are contradictory. What is it? Are thing fixed, or are they broke? I'd say a little and a lot bit of both. That's why we should openly discuss, not arbirarily condemn
__________________________________________________ __.

Not some tiny whiny East Coast animal protection group whose own actions often discredit their sincerity. ...... It's just easier to blame them rather take on the slob behavior or address the loss of habitat.

We finally agree 100% on this one.
__________________________________________________ ____

In the end, Michigan allows plenty of opportunities to use arrow-guns for those who choose to use 'em. The rest of us need to resist the commercial interests who initiate internet marketing tactics by posting forum threads.[/QUOTE]

Golly, I thought for a fleeting moment that peace had broke out. Not to be! Your above statement is the very fear-mongering tactic you yourself villify. Or, is it OK to engage fear mongering when it serves a preferred agenda?

But let's address that issue so long as you brought it up: I, for one, have absolutely no commercial interest, affiliation, financial arrangement or otherwise in any way shape of form with any person or entity in the crossbow manufacturing business. ZIP, Zilch, Zero, Nada! And, I would meet with you personally on the top steps of the Capital Building in Lansing Michigan, at high noon, on Christmas day and say that to right to your face in front of God, man and whoever else wants to know. No "lobbyist" here, pally. Just a concerned sportsperson at this end.

(Now, you aint one of them there lobbyist yourself, are ya?):eek:

[fairfax1]

Being scolded, like being shot at - as Winston Churchill famously said -serves wonderfully to focus your attention.

So, with a refined focus, I have re-read the initiating post that started this thread. Boiled down to it's essence the poster's query is:

A. Would you create a seperate crossbow-only season?
B. If no.....is there another segement of the deer seasons in which you would legalize crossbows?
C. If yes...for which two weeks would you have the law changed to allow it?

The initiating poster also asks that only those three questions be addressed...no re-hashing of the controversy of legalizing this weapon nor debating the pros & cons of using this type of weapon.

So, with that guidance from the initiator I'll reframe my response.

A. No, I would not create a "cross-bow only" season.
B. I'd acquiesce to the 16 day season (Nov 15th to Nov 30th) currently in place. That season allows any advocate of this weapon to pursue deer. Too, it needs to be pointed out, that qualified advocates of this weapon also have another 78 days of open season...for a total of 94 days, significantly more than any of the firearm flavors.

For those curios as to how I arrived at these opinions on the above two questions I'd refer you to my earlier polemic on this same thread. ;)

[fairfax1]

Your ambitious response is impressive. A respectful nod for your efforts, and no doubt, your sincerity. And, it must be said, I have no need to look you in the eye on Christmas and hear your denial that you are a lobbyist. I believe in your good name, Legerdemain.

But, if I may, let me tweak your response in those areas where I felt you may have strayed from my intent....or perhaps, overemphasized a point at the expense of another.

First..."hobbyist" vs "lobbyist". To be sure Legerdemain, I do make typos. But that wasn't one of 'em. The rest of your commentary in that paragraph and the next is understandable, as you just kept driving after your wrong turn. It happens. It can be easy to get lost, but you needn't worry, you are amongst friends here.

Next....your observation on 'handicapped' vs. 'disabilty'....is relevant. Sometimes my 'PC' sensibilities need a nudge. And, I'll even concede there are occasions, probably through carelessness or sometimes wine, where I will exhibit "narrow thinking" and a "flawed societal minset". But, generally, I'm a pretty good guy. My wife thinks so. So does my dog.
In that same paragraph you suggest I parse my word 'legitimate' and substitute 'established'....well, the 'established' season is the 'legitimate' season....so, I'll stubbornly stick to my original. Appreciate your editors-eye, though.

Third, ....re: 'arrow-guns'....I confess, it is perjorative. But, I took my cue from 'spear-guns' . Let's put it in the artistic lisence category. OK

Fourth, your reference to the D&DH article. I haven't seen it. I'll look for it. Thanx for the heads-up.

Fifth, regarding your puzzlement on sport hunting's 'diminished popularity' in the face of 'expanded opportunity'. Legerdemain, that is explainable: Even though States such as Michigan continue to increase the number of seasons, or lengthen them, and increase the numbers of targeted animals, the hunting community continues to lose participants. I doubt I need to dig up stats to back that up, I suspect you intuitively know that already....It surely seems evident from what I observe amongst my own associates and circle of contacts....and by what I read in the popular press. As they say in court, let's say that it is a "stipulated" fact.

Lastly, about my comment on 'stealth marketing' via internet forums. I got no proof. But, though I may not be the brightest candle on the cake, I surely think I occasionally detect in some posts on this forum ...and particularly other forums (ArcheryTalk, to name names).....some 'opinions' that read awfully close to marketing schtick. Call me Mr.Skeptical.

Finally, the last 'Lastly'...........well good, Legerdemain, I'm encouraged that we can find common ground with our opinions on the 'antis' being a straw-man.

F1

[Lee Gerdermain]

Your ambitious response is impressive. A respectful nod for your efforts, and no doubt, your sincerity. And, it must be said, I have no need to look you in the eye on Christmas and hear your denial that you are a lobbyist. I believe in your good name, Legerdemain.

But, if I may, let me tweak your response in those areas where I felt you may have strayed from my intent....or perhaps, overemphasized a point at the expense of another.

Not really, however I am happy to see that that you got to third-year French in High school. I myself took 4 years of high school Latin (and 2 more in college), only because the girl of my dreams, while in high school, took the class. So, where she went, I followed. No other reason. Regrettably, she went off to college and married a some dunderhead, and here I am being an advocate-general for, of all things, deer hunting.

First..."hobbyist" vs "lobbyist". To be sure Legerdemain, I do make typos. But that wasn't one of 'em. The rest of your commentary in that paragraph and the next is understandable, as you just kept driving after your wrong turn. It happens. It can be easy to get lost, but you needn't worry, you are amongst friends here.

I wondered about that too. But then I read, and re-read, your entire post and concluded that it was indeed thematically consistent with the letter and spirit of your entire post. Sorry, nice try; it wasn’t a wrong turn. It's OK though, just say three "Hail Mary’s”, avoid candy and promise to not to do it again.

Next....your observation on 'handicapped' vs. 'disabilty'....is relevant. Sometimes my 'PC' sensibilities need a nudge. And, I'll even concede there are occasions, probably through carelessness or sometimes wine, where I will exhibit "narrow thinking" and a "flawed societal mindset". But, generally, I'm a pretty good guy. My wife thinks so. So does my dog.
In that same paragraph you suggest I parse my word 'legitimate' and substitute 'established'....well, the 'established' season is the 'legitimate' season....so, I'll stubbornly stick to my original. Appreciate your editors-eye, though.

First, As long as were both trying to achieve grammatical "nirvana" here; your next header should have been: "Second" or "secondly" or "Number two". Remember, college writing; if you start a bullet with "first", there must be a "second", #1 followed by a #2, an "A" followed with a "B", etc. You're getting dangerously close to a detention here, Mister Fairfax!

Second, I figured as well that you're a pretty nice guy and happy to hear that your wife and dog think so also (in that order). However, I get the creeps when anybody starts making inference, however subtle, to anything smacking of the "one true faith". Hope that was not your intention.

Third, ....re: 'arrow-guns'....I confess, it is perjorative. But, I took my cue from 'spear-guns' . Let's put it in the artistic lisence category. OK

You're now up to 4 Hail Mary’s' and one detention

Fourth, your reference to the D&DH article. I haven't seen it. I'll look for it. Thanx for the heads-up.

Be happy to fax it to you. Truly enlightening. Please advise.

Fifth, regarding your puzzlement on sport hunting's 'diminished popularity' in the face of 'expanded opportunity'. Legerdemain, that is explainable: Even though States such as Michigan continue to increase the number of seasons, or lengthen them, and increase the numbers of targeted animals, the hunting community continues to lose participants. I doubt I need to dig up stats to back that up, I suspect you intuitively know that already....It surely seems evident from what I observe amongst my own associates and circle of contacts....and by what I read in the popular press. As they say in court, let's say that it is a "stipulated" fact.

My father once told me that anybody can find a problem; only leaders find a solutions." I suggest that you read my original post under a thread that I started elsewhere in the Michigan-sprtsman.com forum titled: "Crossbows: Re-thinking the Status Quo". Hopefully after reading it, you'll appreciate that our agendas are somewhat parallel.

Lastly, about my comment on 'stealth marketing' via internet forums. I got no proof. But, though I may not be the brightest candle on the cake, I surely think I occasionally detect in some posts on this forum ...and particularly other forums (ArcheryTalk, to name names).....some 'opinions' that read awfully close to marketing schtick. Call me Mr.Skeptical.

..."But don’t call me late for dinner" (Groucho Marx)

Finally, the last 'Lastly'...........well good, Legerdemain, I'm encouraged that we can find common ground with our opinions on the 'antis' being a straw-man.

F1
"Great minds (sometimes) think alike"

[halfczech]

i would be in favor of a dec. crossbow season. no seasons at all in sept.

[jonny]

Lets just hunt deer year round!! It no wounder why michigan can't produce big buck. TO MUCH PRESSURE/TO MANY SEASONS!! :bash:

[Thebear_78]

You want big bucks, you need Quality Deer Management, don't matter how much hunting they do, its the killing you have to control. Crossbows in rife season, why change anything.

[2-BIG]

Lets see: scope, gun stock, trigger, 100% let off, hmmm..... the only thing missing is the bang! :lol: Yes, it belongs in the gun season. ;) This thread should be moved to the General Hunting Forum since the crossbow is only legal in the firearms season without a special permit. :)

[Thebear_78]

I think your on to something there 2-big, maybe we should filter all future crossbow conversations to the general hunting forum. We wouldn't be talking about muzleloaders, shotguns, or rifles on the archery forum, so why are we talking crossbows. We shouldn't discuss anything not legal in archery season here. Makes sense to me.

[Joe Archer]

I just don't think we need a special season for cross-bows. I would advocate their use during gun deer season, and muzzle loading season.
I like Wisconsin's (i believe this is the state) law of making them legal during the bow season for anyone 65 and older. My dad who is now in his 70's, isn't able to bow hunt with me any longer. He qualifies for, and has the forms in his posession, but I can't get him to apply for a cross-bow permit. I don't know if it is pride, or just the time constraints of seeing a doctor AND a physical therapist. I would love to track just one more deer for my dad..... Know what I mean? <----<<<

[Lee Gerdermain]

I just don't think we need a special season for cross-bows. I would advocate their use during gun deer season, and muzzle loading season.
I like Wisconsin's (i believe this is the state) law of making them legal during the bow season for anyone 65 and older. My dad who is now in his 70's, isn't able to bow hunt with me any longer. He qualifies for, and has the forms in his posession, but I can't get him to apply for a cross-bow permit. I don't know if it is pride, or just the time constraints of seeing a doctor AND a physical therapist. I would love to track just one more deer for my dad..... Know what I mean? <----<<< Joe, I admire your obvious affection and loyalty to your father. Have to advise you, even though your father is in his 70's, unless he meets the strict criteria set forth that allows him to hunt game with a crossbow, he is probably done with bowhunting for the remainder of his life. You say he does. Then, it may be a social "stigma" thing associated with being identified as having disabilities, or the "h" word (handicapped").
My advice: Get his butt in a car and get him evaluated. Time and realtionships are too precious.

To your point of Wisconsin's law of allowing persons 65 or older to use a crossbow..this isa profoundly good thing. Regrettfully, it is also, too little too late. Many, many bowhunters leave the sport commencing in their mid-40"s, never to return Perhaps your father, or even yourself may be following this trend. Certainly you know many that have.

There are several reasons for this, the three most pronounced are:



Physical limitations attributed to the natural aging process of man.


Inability to become and maintain the profienciency levels required to use current implements in an effective and ethical way


Time constraints
Good luck to you and your father.

LG

[Munsterlndr]

FYI, for those who feel that crossbows are really guns, the last several crossbow threads that I have started, were started in the whitetail forum and moved to the archery forum by the moderators, so obviously they classify crossbows as archery equipment.

Funny how I don't see crossbows in the Cabela's "shooting" catalog but they do show up in the "archery" catalog, but that is probably a calculated move made by "commercial interests" to subliminally brainwash sportsmen into accepting crossbows as bows.

Oops, there I go, off topic again. My bad.
_________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Thebear_78]

Lee-

The people that you know must lead REALLY hard lives if they are so banged up by the time they are in thier mid 40s that that can't perform the physical act of pulling and shooting a compound bow. I look around at the people I know that are in or past that age you are talking about and I can't think of one person who I could see being not physically able to maintain profienciency levels. My family and freinds that are in that age group have all been active and had hard jobs, fireman, police officers, construction and factory workers, farmers, and moving men. Few of them are free of old injuries or disablilities. The worst of which has lost his left hand, and he shoots a longbow and is in his mid 40s. My father has a serious leg injury and will probably have to have it amputated within the next five years, and is in his mid 50s and has no problem shooting a compound. My grandpa in his mid 70s can still get around as well as most 50 year olds. I think that access is a far bigger problem than weapon choice. Just about anyone can shoot a compound and if they have five minutes a day that can easily maintain accuracy out to 20 yards. I even know blind men that hunt with longbows and compounds with the aid of a spotter. Its walking thru thick brush, or over broken and uneven landscapes that is hard.

"There are several reasons for this, the three most pronounced are:


Physical limitations attributed to the natural aging process of man.
Inability to become and maintain the profienciency levels required to use current implements in an effective and ethical way
Time constraints"

People just dont fall aparat after thier 40s, a small effert to keep in shape will keep them hunting well into thier 70s.

Compounds are so easy to shoot that minimal practice is required to stay proficient out to 20 yards.

If you don't have 5 minutes a couple times a week to fling a few arrows then you don't have enough time to practice with any weapon, even gun hunters should practice regularly.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Lee-

The people that you know must lead REALLY hard lives if they are so banged up by the time they are in thier mid 40s that that can't perform the physical act of pulling and shooting a compound bow. I look around at the people I know that are in or past that age you are talking about and I can't think of one person who I could see being not physically able to maintain profienciency levels. My family and freinds that are in that age group have all been active and had hard jobs, fireman, police officers, construction and factory workers, farmers, and moving men. Few of them are free of old injuries or disablilities. The worst of which has lost his left hand, and he shoots a longbow and is in his mid 40s. My father has a serious leg injury and will probably have to have it amputated within the next five years, and is in his mid 50s and has no problem shooting a compound. My grandpa in his mid 70s can still get around as well as most 50 year olds. I think that access is a far bigger problem than weapon choice. Just about anyone can shoot a compound and if they have five minutes a day that can easily maintain accuracy out to 20 yards. I even know blind men that hunt with longbows and compounds with the aid of a spotter. Its walking thru thick brush, or over broken and uneven landscapes that is hard.

"There are several reasons for this, the three most pronounced are:


Physical limitations attributed to the natural aging process of man.
Inability to become and maintain the profienciency levels required to use current implements in an effective and ethical way
Time constraints"

People just dont fall aparat after thier 40s, a small effert to keep in shape will keep them hunting well into thier 70s.

Compounds are so easy to shoot that minimal practice is required to stay proficient out to 20 yards.

If you don't have 5 minutes a couple times a week to fling a few arrows then you don't have enough time to practice with any weapon, even gun hunters should practice regularly. Frankly, I personally do not know of one person within in my social circle that has left the sport of bow hunting as a result of the circumstances that I describe. Not even ONE!! All my hunting buddies, people that I have known for my entire life are still very active and proficient; I with a crossbow, they with compounds. I hope it stays that way for the rest of our lives because they are dear friends and I want to bow hunt with them for many more years.

However, my personal circumstance, and yes, yours, does not have any significance to the real numbers. Just because you and I know a few folks that still hunt the way they started out, or with slight modifications, and/or that they have/had physically challenging jobs throughout their careers has no bearing on the stats.



The numbers are what they are; so says the US Department of the Interior
The numbers are what they are; so says the ATA.
The numbers are what they are, so says the MDNR.
And the numbers clearly show that there is a demographic shift away from bow hunting commencing at the age of 45.

Exacerbating this situation is the fact that much of the post WWII "baby boomer" generation is largely made up of the "compound bow generation" which saw its ranks swell exponentially during the 1970's and 80's. There is an excellent chance, no, a statistical certainty, that we will see the same kind exponential exodus from these ranks as we witnessed during their recruitment phase. That is, unless more recruitment occurs and more retention efforts occur. Since the former is not going so well at the moment, expect to see less bow hunters over the next 10 years. Lot's less bow hunters. Personally, I see that as a bad thing. Some may see it as a good thing

Accordingly, I have merely suggested here (and elsewhere) one possible solution to a very complex problem. Many concur with that opinion. Some don’t. You, on the other hand have vilified and condemned because your circle of acquaintances, including yourself, are not part of the exiting community (yet) and don’t believe that it exists. Still, the numbers are there and the numbers don't lie. You may not like my solution, but the numbers are what there are.

[Thebear_78]

You have no proof that the shift away from bowhunting has ANYTHING to do with peoples inability to keep proficient with a compound. You have also not proven any need for crossbows. Who is to say that these people don't leave the sport of bowhunting just because they loose interest. Maybe they have decided golf is more important to them, there is simply no way to tell why they leave.

[Munsterlndr]

Please keep this thread on topic. The issue of whether or not crossbows should be allowed during the regular archery season was from a different thread that is now closed. The question posed in this thread was as follows:

Are you in favor of a dedicated crossbow season and if so when would it be?

If you are not in favor of a dedicated crossbow season, what existing season would you lump crossbow season in with?

These questions evolved out of a series of threads debating whether crossbows should be considered bows and if so, should be allowed to be used during the regular bow season. Again, the point of this thread was not to rehash that debate. Instead, since several of the more vocal opponents of the inclusion of crossbows during the regular archery season have made the assertion that a crossbow is not a bow, I decided to follow this line of thought and view the crossbow as a unique weapon. The question posed is based on the hypothesis that a crossbow is not a bow or a gun but a unique weapon and as such should have it's own season.

I do find it interesting that many of the same opponents who do not feel that a crossbow is really a bow are also not in favor of giving the crossbow it's own dedicated season. Their response seems to be lump it in with rifle season so it does not affect bow season in any way.

My personal feeling is that if you want to deny the use of a crossbow during regular bow season,fine, but then it would be reasonable to give it it's own dedicated season. Personally, I think Nov. 1st thru Nov. 14th would work out just fine. :) So how about it bowhunters, if you want to exclude it from regular bow season are you willing to cut your dedicated season short by those two weeks? May be a good topic for another thread.
______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Thebear_78]

Just because its its own weapon doesn't mean it deserves its own season. It has a butstock and a trigger, belongs in rifle season. Since the crossbow has been around much longer than muzzle loaders I would even include it in muzzle loader season. The modern day inlines have about as much in common with early muzzle loaders as the modern crossbows have with early crossbows, so it fits fine in that season also. Whats next......hand grenade season????

[Lee Gerdermain]

You have no proof that the shift away from bowhunting has ANYTHING to do with peoples inability to keep proficient with a compound. You have also not proven any need for crossbows. Who is to say that these people don't leave the sport of bowhunting just because they loose interest. Maybe they have decided golf is more important to them, there is simply no way to tell why they leave.
As much as what you would like to think that these things are pulled from a majician's hat, I do indeed have proof, perhaps even more that the stuff that you are consuming at the moment. If you would like me to recite book, chapter and verse, I gladly will, with bells! In fact, I already have! However, I beleive that your intentions are perhaps more sinister here, like flaming, as before, so as to get the thread closed by a moderator. A motive? End of thread; end of awareness; end of truth; end of discussion. Whalla: agenda served! Sorry: this fish for one aint ain't biting on that worm!

[Thebear_78]

Lee-

No conspiracy to limit awareness here. I just don't like somebody trying to push thier ideas on others. You apparently don't think your able to keep proficient with a compound for whatever reason, so you assume that everyone else over 40 can't shoot one either. Simply not true. You're like a borken record.....bla,bla,bla.......So people in thier mid 40s and later are leaving archery, doesn't mean that they left due to the same reasons you would leave for.

Nothing sinister in my intentions. I just have a hard time walking by without saying anything to some moron standing on a soap box talking out his butt and not countering his faulty oppinions. If that guy is left without countering too long then people start to believe him.

"I can't use a compound cause I'm too old" wimper, wimper "its inconvenient" wimper, wimper, lip quiver "I need a crossbow"

Sometimes the easy way isn't the best way.

[fairfax1]

You raise the bar too far - stipulating that the thread remain focused on your 3 questions ...then you pile on when a post opposes arrow-guns (as in spear-guns, get it?).

To be sure, they are your rules. But, like the rules in Butch Cassidy's knife-fight....."Rules! What rules?"

If I may I'd like to tweak Legerdemain's comments, to wit:
"Accordingly, I have merely suggested here (and elsewhere) one possible solution to a very complex problem. Many concur with that opinion. Some don't"

I'd humbly submit that it may be better said as : "Some concur with that opinion. Many don't." ...... I don't mean to put words in your mouth Legerdemain, but I think you may be putting a little nudge onto the pinball machine there.

Then the stats about archers leaving the sport in their 40's. And arrow-guns being a possible corrective. Could that be said of gunners also? Wildfowlers? Pheasant hunters? Hunters in general? Are arrow-guns to be the corrective for keeping maturing hunters. Could punt-guns help keep duck hunters around, you think?

I'd dare say that statistics going back years may show maturing men cutting down on their hunting activity period....whatever their choice of season, game, or weapon. Hunting itself, whatever the form, is generally physically demanding. That's not to say it is a young man's game (I'm nearly 60), but still, the demands of hunting require commitment if not youthful stamina. If there are maturing bowhunters and they are leaving bowhunting.....perhaps, they are just doing more gunning for deer. It's generally easier.

Perhaps a more telling stat would be comparing bowhunting lisences sold.

[Thebear_78]

I couldn't agree more fairfax. I know one of my uncles used to do a lot of bowhunting but in the last few years as he is in his early 50s he makes the 2 hour drive to his hunting grounds less and less and the 10 minute drive to the golf course more and more. On a nice fall day he enjoys a round of golf more than he did 20 years earlier, the same could be said of the amount of time he spends on a steelhead stream. Even my dad only hunts on nice days anymore, you won't find him hunting in the rain or even on especially cold days, mostly due to his bad leg not handling the cold. Back when I was a very young child my dad used to drag me out hunting on rainy, cold, miserable days. You can skew numbers to fit just about any oppinion.

[2-BIG]

The Bear 78 and Fairfax, you fellas add some common sense to an otherwise boring math lesson by Lee. You are right when you say you can skew numbers to fit most any opinion. The MDNR does it all the time!

[Lee Gerdermain]

Lee-

No conspiracy to limit awareness here. I just don't like somebody trying to push thier ideas on others.

OK, I forgot, this isn't a society of free speech, particualrly when somebody has opposing views. I forgot that we burnt our bill of rights along with your birth certificate, Thebear_78, (or was that Robspierre?)

Yuo apparently don't think your able to keep proficient with a compound for whatever reason, so you assume that everyone else over 40 can't shoot one either.

First, lets set the record straight (again), I am totally 100% non-proficient with a compound or traditional bow. Used to be, but no longer. I totally admit it. Come see. Come touch. Come feel. Not by choice, but by the hand of God. I have met the critera to take game with a crossbow by virtue a very limiting disability that, incidentally, details of which I have absolutely no intention of sharing publically, and least of all, with likes of you. Then to attempt to "connect the dots" betwwn my personal circumstance and those issues that I have attempted to bring forth...well..., I find it as repugnant as the odor of 4 day old fish! Peeeeuuu!

Simply not true. You're like a borken record.....bla,bla,bla.......So people in thier mid 40s and later are leaving archery, doesn't mean that they left due to the same reasons you would leave for.

You're right. I left hunting with a compound bow a while back for personal/medical reasons. I have already listed the most common reasons why people age 45 and greater leave the sport. In fact, you have even reiterated them for us. Thanks.

Nothing sinister in my intentions. I just have a hard time walking by without saying anything to some moron standing on a soap box talking out his butt and not countering his faulty oppinions. If that guy is left without countering too long then people start to believe him.

Sorry, I, and hopefully nobody else here is taking your ait on this one! Name calling herein this forum is a supreme "no no"
I suggest that the moderator close this person's account post haste.

"I can't use a compound cause I'm too old" wimper, wimper "its inconvenient" wimper, wimper, lip quiver "I need a crossbow"

Reflecting remorsefully upon the above statement, I have only one thing to say before a moderator rightfully throws you out of here this website for good. Are you ready? Here it is.... "I will pray for you."

Sometimes the easy way isn't the best way. No comment!

[Pinefarm]

Agreed on closing. Enough fighting about a hypothetical, back to archery discussions.