Should crossbows be allowed for everyone during the archery deer season?

[Trophy Specialist]

This issue seems to be getting increased attention these days and I was wondering what the majority of people think.

[deepwoods]

I personally do not think they should be allowed for everyone regardless of circumstance. I am however all for them allowing handicapped or even elderly people extended access to this wonderful state.

Just my $.02.

[SR-Mechead]

I personally do not think they should be allowed for everyone regardless of circumstance. I am however all for them allowing handicapped or even elderly people extended access to this wonderful state.

Just my $.02.

Great post I agree 100%. Put and age on it 59 1/2

[jk hillsdale]

I'm not in favor of them being allowed for everyone.

[kbotta]

Great post I agree 100%. Put and age on it 59 1/2
B.S. If you do for 1, you do for all. Why should someone 59 1/2 yrs old, and in good shape get to use one? What if a 20 yr old has a small prob? should he be excluded? NO! Let ALL the hunters have a choice.
My .02
Kevin

[Thunderhead]

Here we go again..........

[Joe Archer]

B.S. If you do for 1, you do for all. Why should someone 59 1/2 yrs old, and in good shape get to use one? What if a 20 yr old has a small prob? should he be excluded? NO! Let ALL the hunters have a choice.
My .02
Kevin
I voted no, not for everyone. I like the idea of having them legal for 65 and older. If a 20 year old is eligible they could get a permit, but would have to go through the same system employed now for everyone. We have done a lot for the youth coming into this sport. In my opinion, it is time to give back some to those who have helped to make archery hunting what it is today. <----<<<

[Adam Waszak]

I personally do not think they should be allowed for everyone regardless of circumstance. I am however all for them allowing handicapped or even elderly people extended access to this wonderful state.

Just my $.02.


Perfect answer right there otherwise bowhunt or wait till Nov 15th :D

AW

[Brian S]

My $.02

- Anyone 59 and older can have the option of using a crossbow during the archery season

- Open the December part of archery season to allow anyone to use a crossbow

[Sam22]

Leave it as it is. I think the number of mortally wounded and unrecovered deer would increase. Crossbows have a decievingly short lethal range. When I worked in an archery shop I talked about half of the potential crossbow buyers out of even owning one.

[Munsterlndr]

In my opinion they should be legal for anyone to use during either bow, rifle or muzzleloader season, period.

When this question is debated I have yet to see a substantive reason offered as to why they should not be legalized for everyone. The most commonly offered responses are:

1) Too many people will use them and it will ruin the hunting for all of us traditional bowhunters.

2) People that want to use them are just lazy.

3) Nobody really wants to use them it's just a conspiracy by the bow manufactures to sell more bows.

None of those arguements hold any water, in my opinion. Somebody give me a GOOD reason why everyone should not be able to use one.

_____________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[DrifterChuck]

My vote is to leave it as it is. They wanted the crossbow legalized and now it is for the handicapped and for everyone during rifle season.

In answer to Munsterlndr’s Questions:

1. As it is, there are a lot of rifle hunters that believe that bowhunters are too successful nowadays and take too many bucks before the rifle season. I have often heard these sentiments expressed. I know the record books don’t bare that out but you won’t convince many them otherwise. You put crossbows into the regular archery season and watch the crossover rifle hunters who would love a chance to use a weapon that is easy and so similar in many ways to theirs. It’s my opinion that there will be a huge outcry as the bow season kill numbers go way up as a result of higher numbers of hunters.

2. There are always people who look to be successful with the least possible effort. Otherwise, why the popularity of compound bows and all the gadgets that go along with them? Obviously, it makes for greater accuracy and a shorter easier learning curve. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with greater accuracy but where does it end with all the gadgets and technology. I’ll get creamed for this one but just look at the state of hunting in Mi. Heated elevated rifle blinds and bait piles for the gun hunter and treestands and bait piles for bowhunters. The point I’m trying to make is, if there is the perception that there is an easier way to accomplish a goal then there is a percentage of our population that will take the easy road i.e. crossbows. In my mind someone who wouldn’t put in the effort to learn to shoot a compound bow but would buy a crossbow to hunt in archery season is just plain lazy.

3. Munsterlndr, back in the 40’s, not sure of the exact timeframe, before there was a bow season in Mi there were numerous archery clubs around the state with substantial memberships. A good many of those archers wanted to hunt deer with their chosen weapon and worked very hard to establish a bow season which they did. I will guarantee you that you will not find the same with the push for crossbows into the Mi season. The push came from without, from the crossbow manufacturers and others seeking to make a profit, not from any organized group of crossbow users within the state. I will concede this point to you if you can name one crossbow club in the state Mi prior to the big push by manufactures to get them into our bow season. I doubt if even now there is a state crossbow organization or competitive crossbow shoots being held the state.

Because Michigan has huge hunter numbers, something like third in the nation (could be wrong as to exactly where we stand). But that would be a huge financial windfall for the crossbow manufacturers and sporting goods retailers. Ask yourself why else did they take our outdoor writers on free out of state crossbow hunts? So they would come back and write positively about the use of crossbows in the archery season. Follow the money it has always been about $$$$$

[Ken]

If given the option, I probably would still use my compound most of the time. I played around with a Horton crossbow at one time, and I know I can shoot much better as far as accuracy with my compound. They are fast, and you obviously don't have to draw before the shot, but I don't think they are all that great, IMO.

[Munsterlndr]

Drifetchuck -

Thanks for responding to my questions


My vote is to leave it as it is. They wanted the crossbow legalized and now it is for the handicapped and for everyone during rifle season.

In answer to Munsterlndr’s Questions:

1. As it is, there are a lot of rifle hunters that believe that bowhunters are too successful nowadays and take too many bucks before the rifle season. I have often heard these sentiments expressed. I know the record books don’t bare that out but you won’t convince many them otherwise. You put crossbows into the regular archery season and watch the crossover rifle hunters who would love a chance to use a weapon that is easy and so similar in many ways to theirs. It’s my opinion that there will be a huge outcry as the bow season kill numbers go way up as a result of higher numbers of hunters.
While some rifle hunters may complain that a lot of big bucks get taken by archers, I have not heard of any serious movement by rifle hunters to eliminate bow season. I'd be surprised if legalizing crossbows added another 50,000 hunters to the existing number of bowhunters. I do think some existing bow hunters may switch but that would not increase the kill numbers significantly.

2. There are always people who look to be successful with the least possible effort. Otherwise, why the popularity of compound bows and all the gadgets that go along with them? Obviously, it makes for greater accuracy and a shorter easier learning curve. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with greater accuracy but where does it end with all the gadgets and technology. I’ll get creamed for this one but just look at the state of hunting in Mi. Heated elevated rifle blinds and bait piles for the gun hunter and treestands and bait piles for bowhunters. The point I’m trying to make is, if there is the perception that there is an easier way to accomplish a goal then there is a percentage of our population that will take the easy road i.e. crossbows. In my mind someone who wouldn’t put in the effort to learn to shoot a compound bow but would buy a crossbow to hunt in archery season is just plain lazy.
I guess it's a difference of perception. You see heated blinds, treestands, compound bows and crossbows as indications that the person who uses them is lazy. I just see them as different tools to accomplish the same goal. Is the fisherman who uses downriggers lazy? Maybe we should all fish from canoes without motors. If you reduced the number of deer hunters in this state to only those who use a long bow with cedar arrows or a flintlock, you would end up with a pretty small bunch. Other than those two basic weapons, everything else is just a variation on a theme.

3. Munsterlndr, back in the 40’s, not sure of the exact timeframe, before there was a bow season in Mi there were numerous archery clubs around the state with substantial memberships. A good many of those archers wanted to hunt deer with their chosen weapon and worked very hard to establish a bow season which they did. I will guarantee you that you will not find the same with the push for crossbows into the Mi season. The push came from without, from the crossbow manufacturers and others seeking to make a profit, not from any organized group of crossbow users within the state. I will concede this point to you if you can name one crossbow club in the state Mi prior to the big push by manufactures to get them into our bow season. I doubt if even now there is a state crossbow organization or competitive crossbow shoots being held the state.
I guess I don't see the absence of crossbow clubs as a reason not to leagalize them. As far as manufactures pushing thier product, who cares? Like the gun makers don't do the same thing. Tell me that we NEEDED short magnum cartridges or that the .260 kills a deer deader than a.270! It's called capitalism! Also, sportsmen tend to like the new and the different. That's why at last count (don't tell my wife :) ) I have deer rifles in 7 different calibers.

Because Michigan has huge hunter numbers, something like third in the nation (could be wrong as to exactly where we stand). But that would be a huge financial windfall for the crossbow manufacturers and sporting goods retailers. Ask yourself why else did they take our outdoor writers on free out of state crossbow hunts? So they would come back and write positively about the use of crossbows in the archery season. Follow the money it has always been about $$$$$
Again, I guess we just see things differently. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

___________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon inTraining

[sisu1]

I'm in favor of the handicapped using them, that is, anybody who has a verifiable medical condition which prevents them from using a conventional bow, regardless of age. I know too many guys over 60 in great physical condition. Where do you put a cap on age?

[DrifterChuck]

Musterlndr

We will just have to disagree on your first point. I happen to believe that rifle hunters will organize against the technology you advocate in archery season. The result could be a reduction in season length and I’m not willing to risk that just because outside forces want to profit at our expense.

No one is advocating going back to longbows and cedar arrows, only setting some limits and crossbows are where I and many other bow hunters draw the line. There are guns out there that shoot broadhead type projectiles. Using your reasoning there is no reason why these shouldn’t be allowed in bow season as well. It’s only capitalism according to you, the intent and integrity of the sport be dammed.

I really don’t care what the gun manufacturers are pushing these days because guns are legal in Michigan. I do wonder if you would object to fully automatic weapons in the woods should some outside company make a big effort to have them legalized. After all it’s a gun, just a souped up model, and captalism is good.

The absence of crossbow clubs and a unified effort within the state is exactly my point. There was NO demand for crossbow use in this state until outside forces made a huge financial commitment to create a demand.

With seven rifles in your home, it makes me think that you are arguing in favor of crossbows because you want to use one in bow season. I may be way off base here but that thought just crossed my mind.

This subject has been beat to death on many sites and I don’t intend to rehash it all here again.

Cheers, Chuck

[DrifterChuck]

SISU 1

Just some food for thought. The handicapped issue was a foot in the door for the crossbow folks and many people were in favor of it. Unfortunately many viewed this as an opportunity to abuse the new law and a lot of fraudulent crossbow permits were and are being obtained. The DNR elected not to get involved in this because it would require proving the doctors and PT’s that signed the application forms were not thorough and honest in their evaluation and that was a can of worms that they were not going to open. So there is no enforcement of the handicapped requirement.

How do I know this you may ask? I know a fellow that was shooting an 80# PSE one week and when the handicapped law came into effect he got a crossbow permit several weeks later. I reported this to a CO, a guy I know personally, and when he asked his superiors how to persue an investigation and possible action against this individual. He was told, in essence to drop it.

The elderly, youth and women are the next target of the crossbow manufactures/loby as can be seen on this thread with folks advocating their use for folks over a certain age.

These people will not be satisfied until they are legal in archery season for everyone and they are willing to do it one step at a time.

So what may seem harmless and only fair on the surface may have unforseen consequences.

By the way, I am 63 years old and if the time comes that I can’t pull a real bow, I will bow out of the sport gracefully and spend more time on the river fishing or following my setters through the fall woods.

[FixedBlade]

A cross bow is just another tool for taking game. Drop it in the bow season where it belongs. Any how a bow can be used duriing gun season just as long as you have the correct valid lisence. I'll stick with my compound.

[THETOOLMAN]

This same thing came up in Georgia 3 or 4 years ago. Big HOO HAA about it. 1st year a few folks raised sand about it . Verry few people like x bows after they try them. I bought 1 and never took it to the woods .You see I am a bow hunter . and this thing just was not fun at all. (EBAYED IT). Just let them pass it .. it will fade into the shadows & nothing will become of it..You will see. :(

[Pigpen69]

that is, anybody who has a verifiable medical condition which prevents them from using a conventional bow, regardless of age. I know too many guys over 60 in great physical condition. Where do you put a cap on age?

Thats my thought exactly. I have been bowhunting for 15 yrs and put in my time. I have also had two rotator cuff surgeries, and if need arises I would prefer to not give up what I love. Just because some one else doesnt like the Idea.

[THETOOLMAN]

Thats my thought exactly. I have been bowhunting for 15 yrs and put in my time. I have also had two rotator cuff surgeries, and if need arises I would prefer to not give up what I love. Just because some one else doesnt like the Idea.
you are right it is great for folks that cannot pull a bow. or not willing to learn how ito fire a bow.

[2-BIG]

Absolutely NOT! They are just where they belong here in Michigan, in the firearms season and for handicaps in the archery season. The current system is just fine! ;)

[Trophy Specialist]

3. Munsterlndr, back in the 40’s, not sure of the exact timeframe, before there was a bow season in Mi there were numerous archery clubs around the state with substantial memberships. A good many of those archers wanted to hunt deer with their chosen weapon and worked very hard to establish a bow season which they did. I will guarantee you that you will not find the same with the push for crossbows into the Mi season. The push came from without, from the crossbow manufacturers and others seeking to make a profit, not from any organized group of crossbow users within the state. I will concede this point to you if you can name one crossbow club in the state Mi prior to the big push by manufactures to get them into our bow season. I doubt if even now there is a state crossbow organization or competitive crossbow shoots being held the state.
Very good point that I had not considered.

What would you think of a compromise: Allow crossbows during bow season, but only for antlerless deer.

[Munsterlndr]

Musterlndr

No one is advocating going back to longbows and cedar arrows, only setting some limits and crossbows are where I and many other bow hunters draw the line. There are guns out there that shoot broadhead type projectiles. Using your reasoning there is no reason why these shouldn’t be allowed in bow season as well. It’s only capitalism according to you, the intent and integrity of the sport be dammed.
No, the guns that I know of that shoot broadhead type projectiles are firearms and thus should be used in firearms season. If there is powder burning it's a firearm. If there is a string twanging it's a bow, pretty simple. As far as the intent & the integrity of the sport, I think the intent is to enjoy hunting and the outdoors in any way that is meaningful to the individual not subject to one person or groups interpretation of what hunting should be. I think the integrity of the sport lies in how a hunter conducts himself. If you treat your prey humanely and abide by the laws as an ethical hunter then the integrity of the sport will be preserved.

I really don’t care what the gun manufacturers are pushing these days because guns are legal in Michigan. I do wonder if you would object to fully automatic weapons in the woods should some outside company make a big effort to have them legalized. After all it’s a gun, just a souped up model, and captalism is good.
Yes I would object to fully automatic weapons being used for hunting. But I would object because they are not a good tool for hunting not because they are "evil" or something. Let me give you a better example. If someone invented a laser gun that was legal to use, effective and killed a deer humanely, I would probably use one. Again, I see technology as a new tool to be used to accomplish the same goal, you seem to view technology as a threat to the status quo.

The absence of crossbow clubs and a unified effort within the state is exactly my point. There was NO demand for crossbow use in this state until outside forces made a huge financial commitment to create a demand.
Again, who cares if bow manufactures want to sell crossbows? If there is no market there than what's the big deal? Regardless of whether the manufactures are pushing them, crossbows are going to be found to be either an effective tool for hunting, and if so should be legalized, or they are going to be found to be junk and no-one will want to use them anyway, regardless of how much moneyh is spent on advertising.

With seven rifles in your home, it makes me think that you are arguing in favor of crossbows because you want to use one in bow season. I may be way off base here but that thought just crossed my mind.
Your not off base at all and your exactly right, I would like to try and use one during bow season. Does this make me a bad person?

I used to bow hunt with a compound, in the past, but between owning a bird dog and having four kids, I found that the amount of practice that was necessary to keep proficient, was too much, so I stopped bow hunting about 3 years ago. I miss the time in the woods hunting but not the amount of practice time required. Some guys just enjoy shooting a bow for the sake of shooting a bow but I could not justify the amount of time the practice took, given the other demands on my time. I guess this makes me "lazy". :rolleyes: Maybe the guys who think I'm lazy would rather I just go out and hunt anyway without practicing and end up wounding more deer, but I chose to stop bow hunting if I did not feel totally confidant that I could hit my target every time.
I see a crossbow as a tool that I could use to get back out in the woods bow hunting and still have time for the other things.

I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, everyone is entitled to thier opinon. I'm still looking for a legitimate reason that crossbows should not be legalized for everyone.
_____________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[bobht]

I'll be 70 in about one month. I shot 2 deer with my bow this year,one with my bow during muzzle loading season. I would have no objections to having a cross bow season at the same time as muzzle loading season but not during the early archery season cause just about every gun hunter would be out there since shooting a cross bow requires very little skill. I had my shoulder operated on three years ago and had a permit to use a cross bow .I worked hard and by bow season was able to shoot my bow accurately and didnt have to use a crossbow.

[tmb]

If its not drawn and held in the presents of the game its not a bow.

[Joe Archer]

If its not drawn and held in the presents of the game its not a bow.

Shooting a cross bow is not archery by the purist definition. I agree that today's compounds may be getting further away from the purist definition as well, but still if you shoot today's compounds you are an archer.
Most of the laws established to guide the archery season were predicated on the fact that there are fewer archery hunters than rifle hunters, and that archery is (and should be) a challenge. Throw cross-bows into the mix and it changes the entire equation, predication and ultimately will effect archery season.. Who would disagree with that? <----<<<

[mecheadSR]

I voted no, If you can draw a permit for a disability or another reason fine, no problem with that. Also, try to find a age where people would consider it alright to use. If they were legalized and bow makers had competition as they do now it will be just like the muzzleloader boom when it took off, now you can shoot as far as some rifles with muzzleloaders, how long before bow manufactures figure out how to make crossbows that shoot out to 100 yards.

[bigguy131]

I know crossbows are legal in some other states with no restrictions and have never read anything bad about them.But I have read some good hunting stories about them. They used to be outlawed here because they were thought to be a poachers favorite, so I don't think you could have a crossbow club.

[Sib]

No way I could support crossbow hunting during the archery season. Like snagging isn't fishing, crossbows aren't archery.

[Ibow]

The guy who started the thread/poll's opening line was something along the lines of crossbows getting a lot of a attention lately. The truth is, it's been defeated via the NRC, via MUCC and when they tried going back door through the legislature, it died before it even got to the floor of the House. I'm not sure about the thinking that the issue gets a lot of attention lately. It has pretty much died. (thank goodness) I don't think it will ever go away but there never has been any widespread clamor for them. Only for those who have connections with the industry.

The crossbow is not a bow and arrow and there is nothing primitive or short range about it. The crossbow is cocked, breech loaded, the stock is shouldered, the fore stock is held, safety clicked off and the trigger is pulled. Crossbows possess deadly accuracy with no movement, other than a trigger finger required - much unlike a conventional bow which must be hand drawn and held at full draw, without the aid of any mechanical device. Currently, crossbow enthusiasts in Michigan can hunt during the firearm season - a season well suited for a cocked, breech loaded, stock shouldered, triggered weapon.

Those who chose to hunt with a bow and arrow have a unique set of disciplines, challenges and responsibilities and Michigan's archery hunting seasons were developed recognizing these unique challenges. The difficulty in mastering these challenges and responsibilities has kept the numbers of archery hunters at manageable levels that have a limited impact upon the resource. Our archery seasons are lengthy and our bag limits are liberal because archery season is about hunting with a weapon that has a very limited impact on a very precious resource.


Crossbow proponents claim to be the ally of women, children and the elderly using the presumption that somehow, some have been left behind in Michigan's archery hunting seasons because they haven't been allowed the use of a crossbow. This is preposterous at best and an insult to any child, woman or senior citizen.


Anyone, without exception, who is interested and willing to learn to shoot a bow and arrow has been able to participate, especially with the advent of the compound bow.

If people aren’t interested enough in archery and bowhunting to become proficient in using what could still be defined as true archery equipment, should they be given a "technology ticket” just so they can participate? I don’t believe they should.


Many “bowhunters” today take advantage of the easiest possible solutions allowable to the challenges that bowhunting presents and then they look to justify their actions by having archery manufacturers tell them it's okay. Lobbyists for the “archery” industry have convinced us that it's okay because in SOME places we have not yet had an impact on the deer herd (you’d have a hard time convincing public land hunters in MI of that) and the “big tent” remains a safe place to hide out. Yet … when we do, we fail to validate the very limitations we’ve placed on ourselves that serve to ensure a certain amount of challenge and satisfaction in our sport.

NO for crossbow in archery season - they are right where they belong - in firearm season.

[DrifterChuck]

Thetoolman-

I don’t think that things in Georgia are quite as rosy as the picture you paint. I know guys down there that have a totally different view of the situation.

Look at Ohio, I believe that the number of deer being taken with x-bows now exceeds those being taken by the compound and trad guys. They don’t have near the hunter numbers we have, think of the impact in Mi.

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TrophySpecialist-

You asked what do I think about allowing x-bows during bow season, but only for anterless deer.

Personally, I think that idea stinks. It’s just one more step down the road to full legalization. From the posts I’ve read on other forums there are many areas of the state where deer numbers/sightings during the past couple of season are way down. I have 60 acres in Harrison and the numbers here have been steadily declining over the past five or six years.

Besides how would such a law be enforced? Once the broadhead hole is in the buck who’s to say which weapon put it there? In reality, how many people do you think would pass on a nice buck just because the’re holding a x-bow. Sure we all know a few but I would bet you more than 50% wouldn’t. No different than snagging, against the law but go up to Tippy in September and you can see it going on every day of the week.

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Munsterlndr.

You stated---I used to bow hunt with a compound, in the past, but between owning a bird dog and having four kids, I found that the amount of practice that was necessary to keep proficient, was too much, so I stopped bow hunting about 3 years ago. I miss the time in the woods hunting but not the amount of practice time required. Some guys just enjoy shooting a bow for the sake of shooting a bow but I could not justify the amount of time the practice took, given the other demands on my time. I guess this makes me "lazy". Maybe the guys who think I'm lazy would rather I just go out and hunt anyway without practicing and end up wounding more deer, but I chose to stop bow hunting if I did not feel totally confidant that I could hit my target every time.
I see a crossbow as a tool that I could use to get back out in the woods bow hunting and still have time for the other things.

I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, everyone is entitled to thier opinon. I'm still looking for a legitimate reason that crossbows should not be legalized for everyone.
_
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Sir, we all have choices to make in life. You choose to spend quality time with your kids rather than bow hunt and I applaud you for that. Much of the hunting you do, you do with your bird dog as do I. When I’m in the woods with my dogs I’m not bowhunting, we have made a choice. If bowhunting was a priority in your life then you would make time for it. I’m not buying the excuse that you don’t have time to practice to keep proficient. If you cranked your bow down and started exercising with it beginning in August a few nights a week for 5 min after your kids went to bed then gradually increased the weight, you would be physically ready by bow season. A couple of sessions veryfying your sight settings then puting on fresh broadheads and you will be ready to go. If you are still not confident in making a 30 yd shot then restrict your range to 15 to 20 yds and wait for the optimum shot. That’s what bowhunting is all about. You can be the best shot in the world and still wound a deer, that’s what happens with bows, guns and even crossbows. That’s just the way it is.

The bow season is being slowly degraded as it is with all the special hunts. There is now a handicapped hunt during the early bow season, I’m not sure how long muzzleloaders have had a special season in the late bow season, but now there is a late season rifle anterless hunt.

You keep saying one one has given you a good reason, while I think there have been some very good reasons given. First and foremost it’s not a bow.

You say that nothing will happen if crossbows are permitted in the regular bow season and that the gun hunters will not respond and attempt to reduce our season. I would like to remind you, it was not that long ago that forces i.e. the gun community attempted to reduce the early bow season by a week under the guise of having a quiet period of one week prior to the 15 November opener. They will scream a lot louder and have a much better argument to reduce our season if crossbows are part of the equation. That doesn’t seem to matter to the crossbow advocate but it does to me and many other bowhunters.

[Munsterlndr]

The guy who started the thread/poll's opening line was something along the lines of crossbows getting a lot of a attention lately. The truth is, it's been defeated via the NRC, via MUCC and when they tried going back door through the legislature, it died before it even got to the floor of the House. I'm not sure about the thinking that the issue gets a lot of attention lately. It has pretty much died. (thank goodness) I don't think it will ever go away but there never has been any widespread clamor for them. Only for those who have connections with the industry.


I think that the reason this issue is appearing again is because it looks like Wisconsin is going to legalize crossbows for everyone for the 2007 season. Couple that with them being legal in Ohio and a number of other states and some people question why Michigan continues to ban them during bow season.
The crossbow is not a bow and arrow and there is nothing primitive or short range about it. The crossbow is cocked, breech loaded, the stock is shouldered, the fore stock is held, safety clicked off and the trigger is pulled. Crossbows possess deadly accuracy with no movement, other than a trigger finger required - much unlike a conventional bow which must be hand drawn and held at full draw, without the aid of any mechanical device. Currently, crossbow enthusiasts in Michigan can hunt during the firearm season - a season well suited for a cocked, breech loaded, stock shouldered, triggered weapon.

I'm sorry but I find this position that a crossbow is not a bow just plain silly. I think it's a flawed arguement put forth by people who want to preserve the status quo. They don't call it a crossgun.:) You can make the same arguements that a compound bow is not "really" a bow. Get rid of the mechanical advantage of a compound bow, mechanical releases with a "trigger", lighted knocks, scopes and all of the other high tech gear that todays bowhunters use and then maybe I might buy the arguement that a "bow" is a primitive weapon. Be careful, though, because I doubt very many of todays bow hunters would want to go hunting with a long bow with cedar arrows & flint arrowheads. If powder burns and it goes bang it's a gun, if a string twangs and an arrow flys it's a bow. Denying this is just semantics.

Those who chose to hunt with a bow and arrow have a unique set of disciplines, challenges and responsibilities and Michigan's archery hunting seasons were developed recognizing these unique challenges. The difficulty in mastering these challenges and responsibilities has kept the numbers of archery hunters at manageable levels that have a limited impact upon the resource. Our archery seasons are lengthy and our bag limits are liberal because archery season is about hunting with a weapon that has a very limited impact on a very precious resource.



A limited impact? When the first archery season came about you had about 12,000 archers and they took about 3,000 deer. This is a "limited" impact. Michigan now has around 300,000 bow hunters and they harvested around 125,000 deer last year. Slightly less than a third of the overall kill. The number of deer killed by bowhunters is increasing 8 to 9% every year while rifle kill numbers are fairly static at around 2% increase. You guys better face the fact that regardless of whether crossbows are legalized the bow kill numbers are soon going to reach a point where your season is probably going to be modified.

Anyone, without exception, who is interested and willing to learn to shoot a bow and arrow has been able to participate, especially with the advent of the compound bow. If people aren’t interested enough in archery and bowhunting to become proficient in using what could still be defined as true archery equipment, should they be given a "technology ticket” just so they can participate? I don’t believe they should.

We obviously disagree. For reasons I've stated in previous posts, technology is just an alternative means of acheiving the same goal.

Many “bowhunters” today take advantage of the easiest possible solutions allowable to the challenges that bowhunting presents and then they look to justify their actions by having archery manufacturers tell them it's okay. Lobbyists for the “archery” industry have convinced us that it's okay because in SOME places we have not yet had an impact on the deer herd (you’d have a hard time convincing public land hunters in MI of that) and the “big tent” remains a safe place to hide out. Yet … when we do, we fail to validate the very limitations we’ve placed on ourselves that serve to ensure a certain amount of challenge and satisfaction in our sport.
I sense a disapproval of those bowhunters who are not "purists". Kind of like the debate between fly fisherman and those "other" fisherman.:rolleyes:

NO for crossbow in archery season - they are right where they belong - in firearm season.

Again, reading between the lines in most of the posts opposed to crossbows I sense a common theme. "We like things the way they are and we don't want to allow anything that might screw up the good thing we have going." I can understand that arguement, I just can't agree with it. Let's face it, bowhunters do have a great deal in Michigan. A three month season, the choice to use their license on either a buck or doe, a season that runs through the height of the rut in most parts of the state and a shot at the big bucks before all of those rifle hunters get into the woods. Hey guys let's not be greedy, let some more people enjoy the same thing.

_____________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Ibow]

Munster-

You said this -
A limited impact? When the first archery season came about you had about 12,000 archers and they took about 3,000 deer. This is a "limited" impact. Michigan now has around 300,000 bow hunters and they harvested around 125,000 deer last year. Slightly less than a third of the overall kill. The number of deer killed by bowhunters is increasing 8 to 9% every year while rifle kill numbers are fairly static at around 2% increase. You guys better face the fact that regardless of whether crossbows are legalized the bow kill numbers are soon going to reach a point where your season is probably going to be modified.

And then you said this -
Again, reading between the lines in most of the posts opposed to crossbows I sense a common theme. "We like things the way they are and we don't want to allow anything that might screw up the good thing we have going." I can understand that arguement, I just can't agree with it. Let's face it, bowhunters do have a great deal in Michigan. A three month season, the choice to use their license on either a buck or doe, a season that runs through the height of the rut in most parts of the state and a shot at the big bucks before all of those rifle hunters get into the woods. Hey guys let's not be greedy, let some more people enjoy the same thing.

It's difficult to tell exactly what your thinking is.

Let's not get greedy? I don't hink anyone here has been greedy - if anyone is getting greedy, it's the pro crossbow clan. You're right - I'd like to keep what we have now ...

[Hawker]

So, a crossbow is too much like a gun and a gun is too easy. Clearly, then, except for a short season TBD, guns should be outlawed on small game. You should all have to fly hawks! What, you don't have the time to train and fly a bird 4-5 days a week? :yikes: Or aren't "interested and willing to learn" ? Oh well, you made your "choices in life" and if you can't take the time to be a "proficient" falconer you shouldn't be given a "technology ticket" in the form of a rifle or shotgun and actually be able to take a limit of such a precious resource with such a minimal investment of time. What, you say you like guns, have fun hunting with them and it's a great way to introduce new hunters to the sport and it's not having a negative impact on the resource? Sorry, it's still too easy and all those people with guns running around could have a negative impact on a falconer's "quality experience" in the woods. What, you say it does take time to become proficient with a rifle or shotgun? That you shoot trap and skeet all summer and even countless hours training dogs? Well, that may be so, but we've all heard or seen people who have picked up a firearm and after only a few minutes of practice, have gone out and actually harvested a rabbit or squirrel THIER FIRST DAY! :yikes: That just can't be allowed. You people who want it easy should just be relegated to a week or so in January when it's so cold my fingers can't seem to put the batteries in my bird's transmitter. :evil: Unless, of course, you're confined to a wheelchair or don't have any arms. But wait! I'm sure there's one or two armless falconers out there who are flying their birds off one knee, which should be proof that the guys whining about their chemotherapy, heart disease, emphysema, etc., making it too hard for them to stomp around the woods flushing game for a hawk are really just lazy and will have to confine themselves to the "gun season" (if they live that long).

I'm bloody sick of the exclusionists. :banghead3 .

[Pinefarm]

Let's cool our jets a bit. This thread is starting to turn into he said/he said and a bunch of quotes picking apart another quote. I hate closing threads, but if this one falls apart, I will give it serious consideration. Cool with everyone?
Bob

[2-BIG]

Hawker, you are basically making no sense what so ever. I'm bloody sick of the flagrant disregard for the ethical choices we make as hunters. It seems that some just want things handed to them instead of working for them. And I AM NOT speaking of those with disabilities, only those with the disability to partake in archery season without the dedication involved. The usual excuse is ( I just don't have the time it takes to become proficient with a bow.) Then find something else that requires less time! :)

[Munsterlndr]

In my opinion they should be legal for anyone to use during either bow, rifle or muzzleloader season, period.

When this question is debated I have yet to see a substantive reason offered as to why they should not be legalized for everyone. The most commonly offered responses are:

1) Too many people will use them and it will ruin the hunting for all of us traditional bowhunters.

2) People that want to use them are just lazy.

3) Nobody really wants to use them it's just a conspiracy by the bow manufactures to sell more bows.

None of those arguements hold any water, in my opinion. Somebody give me a GOOD reason why everyone should not be able to use one.

_____________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training
2big -

Here is my original post in this thread in case you did not go back and read the entire thread. In regards to your criticsim of Hawker it looks like your using the argument listed in #2 above. I see on the current thread on the Whitetail hunting forum, concerning this topic, that you are accusing Lee of being an outside agitator from the bow industry, see #3 above. How about offering a substantive reason that crossbows should not be allowed that is not one of the perennial arguments offered above. BTW, I should add #4 to the list, that a crossbow is not really a bow but I think that point has already been debated in this thread ad nausem.

Bob@bbt, I'm sorry about continuing to quote previous posts in this thread but at least in this case I'm quoting myself. :) I really am not posting on this thread to be a jerk. I think TS originally posted a legitimate question and whenever this question comes up I see the same responses. I truly would like to hear some good reasons, based either on science or statistics, as to why allowing crossbow hunting during bow season will be so terrible.

As I've stated previously, what I really think it comes down to is bow hunters not wanting to screw up the good thing they have going. I can understand this point of view but that does not make it right, any more than it would be right for gun hunters to want to ban bow hunting because it would increase the number of targets for them in the woods. The hunting community is small enough and isolated enough as it is. We have to work together not fight among ourselves and that may mean that everyone has to give a little to get along.
_________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[2-BIG]

Asking why shouldn't crossbows be allowed in archery only season is like asking why can't single shot rifles be allowed in muzzleloader season. They both shoot only one shot at a time, they can be made to appear the same but are actually 2 totally different animals, we could call them rifleloaders to make them sound similar, we could say that anyone that opposes rifleloaders is a selfish purist and hates (handicaps, women, children, elderly, etc..), we could claim that hunters will soon be extinct (the sky is falling theory), we could use the big tent theory and say we all need to stick together and not question what is used as long as we can still kill something and call ourselves hunters. :dizzy: Use common sense and understand that there are specific weapons and specific reasons for each season that we have! :rant:

[DrifterChuck]

Hawker:

You to have made a choice in how you spend your valuable recreational time and have dedicated a huge investment of time, money and commitment to become an accomplished falconer. Yet for some reason you don’t feel that should be a requirement for others sports. Hmmmm

Like archery I have always had an interest in hawking and had the opportunity to learn something about it back in the 60’s. While I was stationed in England I was made an honorary member of the Medieval Society of London. It was during this time that the members began flying birds, kestrels initially. When I returned to the states I was stationed in Washington state and contacted Mike Perry, President of the Northwest Falconers at the time. In short, I took a redtail that I trained and flew while I was there. So I know the amount of reading and commitment in time and effort your sport requires.

Of all the hunting methods permitted in Michigan your sport could be considered the most exclusionary. I do not have all the requirements to become a licensed falconer in this state but I’m sure the following is pretty close.

First you would have to find a falconer who would take you on as an apprentice. Then there is probably a learning requirement where one has to do some required reading, a number of books perhaps, and then maybe some written tests to accertain how well you know the material. Then you would have to serve a period of time, a year or more under the supervision of a master falconer or until such time he feels you are qualified.

Im not sure about this but inorder to get a permit to keep a bird of prey I expect you would have to have your mews inspected by someone, possibly the state. Then I suspect that in order to take an eyas or passage bird you need another permit.

So your sport, falconery, is a very controlled sport and I suspect that the Michigan Falconers wouldn’t have it any other way. All of this I wholeheardedly support by the way.

But lets say that a group of people came along and in their mind decided that this is way too restrictive, way too much effort, and they just don’t have the time to do it the way it is currently structured. So they attempted to change the status quo. They want to be able to buy their falconry license over the counter, take a bird of prey (with out restrictions) and get on with doing it on their own. You my friend, feeling as passionately about your sport as I do about mine would be screaming to high heavens trying to prevent those who want to do it the easy way from participating. Of course you I and both know that wouldn’t be the easy way and your sport would be corrupted as a result. In fact the effects of a policy like that could even result in the loss of falconry privileges for everyone. So for the preservation of your sport, restrictions to protect and manage it have to be maintained. So it is with my sport.

So before calling others exclusionary and elitist for wanting to preserve their own sport the way it was originally intended, please take a look at your own.

I think if I were still flying birds and living in this state my game bag would be very empty.

[2-BIG]

Chuck, I wish I had your way with words. Great post! :)

[DrDuck]

Thetoolman-

I don’t think that things in Georgia are quite as rosy as the picture you paint. I know guys down there that have a totally different view of the situation.

Look at Ohio, I believe that the number of deer being taken with x-bows now exceeds those being taken by the compound and trad guys. They don’t have near the hunter numbers we have, think of the impact in Mi.

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TrophySpecialist-

You asked what do I think about allowing x-bows during bow season, but only for anterless deer.

Personally, I think that idea stinks. It’s just one more step down the road to full legalization. From the posts I’ve read on other forums there are many areas of the state where deer numbers/sightings during the past couple of season are way down. I have 60 acres in Harrison and the numbers here have been steadily declining over the past five or six years.

Besides how would such a law be enforced? Once the broadhead hole is in the buck who’s to say which weapon put it there? In reality, how many people do you think would pass on a nice buck just because the’re holding a x-bow. Sure we all know a few but I would bet you more than 50% wouldn’t. No different than snagging, against the law but go up to Tippy in September and you can see it going on every day of the week.

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Munsterlndr.

You stated---I used to bow hunt with a compound, in the past, but between owning a bird dog and having four kids, I found that the amount of practice that was necessary to keep proficient, was too much, so I stopped bow hunting about 3 years ago. I miss the time in the woods hunting but not the amount of practice time required. Some guys just enjoy shooting a bow for the sake of shooting a bow but I could not justify the amount of time the practice took, given the other demands on my time. I guess this makes me "lazy". Maybe the guys who think I'm lazy would rather I just go out and hunt anyway without practicing and end up wounding more deer, but I chose to stop bow hunting if I did not feel totally confidant that I could hit my target every time.
I see a crossbow as a tool that I could use to get back out in the woods bow hunting and still have time for the other things.

I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, everyone is entitled to thier opinon. I'm still looking for a legitimate reason that crossbows should not be legalized for everyone.
_
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Sir, we all have choices to make in life. You choose to spend quality time with your kids rather than bow hunt and I applaud you for that. Much of the hunting you do, you do with your bird dog as do I. When I’m in the woods with my dogs I’m not bowhunting, we have made a choice. If bowhunting was a priority in your life then you would make time for it. I’m not buying the excuse that you don’t have time to practice to keep proficient. If you cranked your bow down and started exercising with it beginning in August a few nights a week for 5 min after your kids went to bed then gradually increased the weight, you would be physically ready by bow season. A couple of sessions veryfying your sight settings then puting on fresh broadheads and you will be ready to go. If you are still not confident in making a 30 yd shot then restrict your range to 15 to 20 yds and wait for the optimum shot. That’s what bowhunting is all about. You can be the best shot in the world and still wound a deer, that’s what happens with bows, guns and even crossbows. That’s just the way it is.

The bow season is being slowly degraded as it is with all the special hunts. There is now a handicapped hunt during the early bow season, I’m not sure how long muzzleloaders have had a special season in the late bow season, but now there is a late season rifle anterless hunt.

You keep saying one one has given you a good reason, while I think there have been some very good reasons given. First and foremost it’s not a bow.

You say that nothing will happen if crossbows are permitted in the regular bow season and that the gun hunters will not respond and attempt to reduce our season. I would like to remind you, it was not that long ago that forces i.e. the gun community attempted to reduce the early bow season by a week under the guise of having a quiet period of one week prior to the 15 November opener. They will scream a lot louder and have a much better argument to reduce our season if crossbows are part of the equation. That doesn’t seem to matter to the crossbow advocate but it does to me and many other bowhunters.
I think that everyone here has missed the point. The crossbow's simularity to a bow stops with the arrow. It fires and hunts like a gun, there for should not be concidered for use during bow season, unless there is a handycap issue to concider. Part of the thrill of bow hunting is getting up close and personel with the prey. Being good enough at your craft to be able to make the draw, the position and the shot to bring home your prize. If all you are concerned about is not having the time to practice, then you should not be in the woods in the first place. There is practice involved in any sport. I would hope that if you choose to take a rifle into the woods that you would have the good sense to practice with that before you went as well. I feel that the crossbow has no place in the bow season and if you do, then you are not in this for the sport just the meat. If that is the case, then wait until November 15th and take a gun.

[DrifterChuck]

Thanks 2-Big, just trying to explain our/my position and hold on to what others in the past have worked so hard to give us.

There are a lot of things I would give up to keep our season as it is or even take a few steps back, but they wouldn’t be popular with the majority. For example.......

a. I would gladly go for either or, hunt deer with either a bow or a gun but not both. That would sort out those who are serious an committed to the sport.

b. I would give up treestands which I do use.

c. I would give up bait which I choose not to use.

d. I would give up taking more than one animal and I would accept antler restrictions.

It seems some on here who want into our season are not even willing to give up the small amount of time it takes to shoot reasonably well. I’m speaking of compound shooters here with sights etc.,. And by shooting well, I’m not talking shooting 300’s because I know how much effort it takes to reach that level.

[WDGibby]

No to the crossbows.

Gibby:)

[huntingfool43]

Man I bet the antis just love reading this web site. They know they won't have to due much, the sportsman will end hunting on their own. After reading through this thread all I can due is set here and wonder what will it be next. Anyone who would use a crossbow to shoot 50 yards at his intended target IMO is a slob hunter and don't care if he cripples what he is shooting at,the same goes for someone duing the same with a compound. " If someone is to lazy to practice then they shouldn't hunt" all fine and dandy in a perfect world but we don't live in one. Like it or not there are a lot of bows that get put away at the end of bow season and never get picked up till Oct 1. Same thing happens to a lot of guns, no shots fired before season to make sure everthing is still zeroed in. There are slobs using every weapon leagle and there in lays the problem. IMO there would be no mass exodos to the crossbow, they are akward, heavy and noisy. You still have to due your home work if you expect to be sucessful or you will go home empty handed just like a compound bow. I was forced to use a crossbow and my first thought was NO WAY.Well after having the permit for 3 years I finally bought 1 and now wonder why I waited. Have I desimated the deer herd, not hardly. All the infighting needs to stop, between QDM, bow hunters, gun hunters and muzzle loader guys all fighting I am surprized we even have a deer season, sound like it would be easier for the DNR to stop it all and just let sharp shooters and farmers keep the herd in check.

[DrifterChuck]

Huntingfool...

You stated... IMO there would be no mass exodos to the crossbow, they are akward, heavy and noisy.

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If that is the case why is it that the x-bow deer kill has recently eclipsed the compound kill in Ohio? There must be something they find advantageous to want to use as you describe as an akward, heavy and noisy weapon.

[Hawker]

DrifterChuck,
Amongst all your purported knowledge of the falconry regs you have completely missed the salient point. They exist to protect the birds. The falconry regs have nothing to do with game. There are licensed falconers who have never even taken a single head of wild quarry. But if you mistreat your bird, the feds will come and get it. Somehow I don't see them showing as much interest in the condition of your bow. Finally, regarding this statement
So before calling others exclusionary and elitist for wanting to preserve their own sport the way it was originally intended, please take a look at your own.

Well, I did. I saw my shelves bulging with magazines and books detailing the improvement and wholesale change in breeding, training, housing, feeding and healthcare that engages the community on a constant basis. I saw kites, balloons, artificial insemination, hybridization, dual imprinting, radio transmitters, and positive reinforcement. I saw a group of practioners for whom the phrase "preserving the sport the way it was originally intended" would elicit gales of laughter or an investigation for abuse, because we know better now. Preservation is static and inflexible. We practice falconry which requires a willingness to change and improve for the good of the participants and the resource.

Munsterlndr and others have solicited reasons for continuing to prohibit crossbows for general use during the archery seasons. Thus far, though they have often been carefully and tactfully crafted, nearly all of the responses have fallen under the three items he mentioned, which I agree, do not hold water.

The only concern we should be addressing is whether the resource would be adversely affected by the inclusion of crossbows. The experience of other states and our own demographics suggests the deer herd would not suffer. For certainty, crossbows could be phased in over a number of years. Perhaps beginning with the late archery and late-antlerless for everyone, and early archery for those over fifty-years-old.

[Bwana]

I don't see how allowing a device that is probably no more lethal than a compound bow can hurt our sport. It would increase opportunities for hunters so I feel it is a good thing. Please explain to my why excludeing hunters from the sport is a good thing? Anyone????

As for crossbows not being traditional. I ask what is so traditional about useing modern archery equipment (robo bows)? With modern "robo bows"...you know the ones: modern sights; holographic sights; laser sights; broad heads; mechanical broadheads; aluminum & carbon arrows; releases; hell I have even saw a rangefinder that attaches to a bow. Now, unless all of you guys are still hunting deer with Long Bows and Cedar Arrows while dressed in Buckskin uniforms (as real bow hunters wouldn't use anything as modern as camoflage) it seems rather self-serving to want exclude crossbows because they are easier to operate and therefore MAY improve the odds of a hunter to harvest a deer. Also, to invoke tradition based references while using modern archery equipment seems rather ........ :rolleyes:

[DrifterChuck]

No hawker I did not miss your salient point I just chose to ignore it because you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Your bird is a living creature and the tools we hunt with are not. They are essentially machines that have gone from a simple spring (recurve or longbow) to very high tech machines that could not even be imagined when our liberal seasons were established. Furthermore, you can bet that the engineering departments at the compound bow manufacturer‘s have designed arrow shooting devices that would knock your socks off if they were unveiled. I’ve had them described to me this way, “if you can imagine a skate board without wheels then you have some idea what they have“. And we are merrily traveling down this road of high technology to the point that our bows are barely recognizable from what they were years ago.

Now with all the improvements you mentioned in husbandry, breeding programs, tracking devices, methods of training etc. your bird is still a bird. It has not morphed over the years into some sort of stealth flying creature that can shoot it’s tallons into it’s prey at over 300 fps. Quite the contrary it is what it was down through the centuries and no more efficient today than it was during the reign of King Henry the eight.

I never claimed to be an expert on falconry nor an authority on your permitting requirements. I was just taking a guess at what the requirements might be.

I chose the tact that I did to show how a group with less desire than you might want to change your sport in such a way that you and other falconers would strongly object, just as we are objecting to the changes we see threatening our sport.

[DrifterChuck]

Bawana..

Would there ever be point in your mind where a limit should be set on devices used in archery season if the argument could be made that it would increase hunter participation? Because there will always be someone who wants to take it to the next level because the current requirements are just too darn inconvienient.

How about something that shoots 500 fps or 800 fps?

How about something with a stock, triger, scope that has all of it's working parts contained inside the stock. Instead of the flat spring (bow arms) that currently supply power to todays crossbows and compound bows. Suppose we change the shape of that spring to a heavy coiled spring that would be highly compressed upon cocking, it's still a spring just a different shape. Now suppose the missle, much smaller now, is still technically propelled by miniture cams and a cable or FF type string contained within the stock and this weapon only had a two foot drop at 100 yards. It would be much more efficient than the older model crossbows that are noisy and cumbersome but hey that's technology and progress, beside it would be a marvel at the sports shows and lots of folks would see the advantages of such a "bow" and again it would increase hunter participation.

As we move along this hypothetical, not too unplausable journey down technology lane, lets take it a step further. We know we have the technology to control model airplanes with remote controls and we have remote camera capability. Suppose we just set up our future weapon with a camera mounted on the stock in the woods overlooking a bait pile. All this we can control from the comfort of our home. Whenever you have a few minutes and want to hunt, switch on the camera and monitor and you are there hunting, but not really. Wouldn't that be the ultimate scent control, wouldn't have to buy those expensive suits. So now you are hunting from your home, imagine the excitement as you are viewing the deer on your monitor and aligning your new bow hunting equipment for the shot, then you push the button. There is a whole generation of kids growing up right now with electronic gaming machines that might find this very attractive. Here we go again better technology and a new group of participants, great for the sport right?

Again, we all know that many deer when pressured tend to go nocternal and feel safer traveling at night and there are shift workers that can't hunt during daylight hours. Let's advocate night time hunting so we don't exclude those folks, besides I'm sure that would increase hunter participation and it would open a market for a bunch of new gadgets, night vision goggles etc.. See how rediculous this gets.

If I can dream this crap up don't you think there are highly educated groups of engineers working in this area that can come up stuff far beyond this simple illustration to propel a bladed shaft far beyond what is currently available today?

The fact is we are not excluding anyone who is willing to take the little time and effort required to shoot what is now defined by law as a bow from participating in bow season.

So let's hear it from all of you folks that want to use crossbows in bow season. Just where would you draw your proverbial line in the sand and say that's enough? Now! I think that would be an interesting discussion on this forum rather than one group attacking another group and calling us names for trying to preserve our sport.

Bawana, I would especially like to hear from you because no matter where you draw your line, something will eventually come along and be seen as an improvement/advancement and there will always be someone who thinks it should be permitted and made legal because it's easier. It will be at this point where you say more hunter participation is not a valid reason and you will be called an eletist and exclusionary my friend.

[Munsterlndr]

Drifterchuck -

You obviously feel passionately about traditional bow hunting and that's a good thing. Your entitled to your point of view and I'm sure a lot of other bow hunters agree with you that only traditional equipment should be used.

But I would also submit that it would be a very small minority of all of the people that bowhunt.

Do you drive a model T?, Use a hand crank phone? Light your home with candles? I kind of doubt it. Whether you like it or not most people take advantage of the benefits that technology offers and I think you would have a hard time convincing most people to go backwards.

You ask where I would draw the line in terms of bowhunting technology? As I said before if it has limbs & a string and goes twang I'll call it a bow.

The same arguments are made that only flintlocks should be used during muzzleloading season, only flys and bamboo rods should be used for trout fishing, etc. I'm sorry, that logic just is not going to appeal to the vast majority of hunters in Michigan. Again, I'm not knocking the purists who want the challange of using primitive equipment. But I also get tired of them telling the rest of us "It's my way or the highway."

The key to all of us getting along is compromise.

______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[evil_opie]

I'm all for a special late season 2 week crossbow only hunt, right after muzzleloader to finish out the season December 31. Whats the harm? That time of the year seperates the men from the boys.:D

[SR-Mechead]

I don't care if they use X bows, but make it a certain amount of pounds. I mean when the muzzel loaders came out 50 to 75 yds was a good shot .Now 100 to 125 and they are driving tacks. Hell lets forget about Xbows,muzzel loading, compound bows .Lets just have one long rifle season.From Oct 1 to Dec 31. and only 300mags nothing less.

[Ibow]

That's - essentially what it will be - one long rifle season. :(

[Munsterlndr]

Ibow -

I don't agree that it would be one long rifle season but from your emoticon you obviously don't like rifle season. I'm curious what is it specifically that you don't like about it?

Is it the number of hunters? The blaze orange? Guns? The noise? Hunting over bait? The fact that it interrupts bow season? What exactly gives you such a negative view of rifle season?

I'm also curious whether you do most of your hunting on public or private land? Not trying to be nosy, just trying to gain some insight into where you are coming from.

_________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[DrifterChuck]

Munsterlndr...

Nowhere in this discussion did I say or even imply that everyone should use traditional equipment or that’s where the line should be drawn. You are correct in assuming that I hunt and shoot with longbows and recuves. I also use carbon fly rods, tie my own flies, use a drift boat, have another boat with electric downriggers, my canoe and kayaks are made out of modern materials and I run beeper collars on my dogs. I don’t see the use of those technologies and materials as a threat to any of those other persuits. I play by the rules in each of those areas and would only ask that others do the same when it comes to bowhunting.

I think there is a place for compounds in our sport and it gives a lot of people like yourself an opportunity to participate who do not have the facilities and time to shoot year around on a regular basis to maintain profficiency with traditional equipment. The problem arises when a lot of people take up the compound but are not really archers, they don’t enjoy shooting the bow for the pleasure of shooting or really care much about the sport other than it gives them more time in the woods. These are the folks you see lined up at the archery counters a day or two before the season opens, with dust on their bows and a quiver full of miss matched arrows. I believe this element is bad for our sport.

As you know the other area that I feel strongly about is the technology side and where it’s heading. Manufactures will continue to offer what they tout as better, faster, further shooting machines until what is available twenty years down the road may be as unrecognizable from the bows of today as the bows of today would have looked to an archer in the 60’s.

Since you brought up muzzle loaders. I think some folks are seriously looking at the new scoped up inlines and saying that they are not really any different that a modern single shot rifle. The only thing they don’t have is a brass case that holds the charge and bullet together. So why should they have a special season? I happen to agree with that line of thinking.

[Ibow]

Munster - As hard as you may try, it's quite a stretch to try and frame my last post as anti gun season. I'm a gun hunter, my entire family gun hunts and I come from a long line of gun hunters. My point is, if you want to add crossbows to bow season, how long do you think it's going to be before something has to give? Private land hunting can be controlled. But ask any person who has hunted on public lands in the northern lower or upper peninsula the last 3-5 years how things have gone. And you want to add something that would make it easier yet? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I've been involved with this for a very, very long time. I know who many of the players are on both sides of the aisle and the bottom line is this - right now bowhunters are taking almost 30 percent of the bucks that are eligible to breed prior to the rut - that's not a made up figure - that's straight from biologists in Lansing. We've been told that it cannot go much higher than that or something will have to be done. It may be bag limits and season lengths, it may be restrictions on equipment, or it may well be something to do with gun season.

Two summers ago at the MUCC Convention there was a resolution on the floor that would have allowed for the use of crossbows during bow season. Because the sponsors of this resolution knew it's defeat was imminent, during the course of the Convention, it was amended to include only seniors. There were well over 200 sporting clubs and whitetail user groups present at that Convention. When both sides of the story were told, including that of a very, very well known biologist, the vote was not even close - it was something like 220 to 10 against. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see what was going on. You think all the people representing all those sporting clubs were all ignorant or anti gun season? They heard the arguments for both sides. It wasn't a tough decision. And I didn't see too many "purists" and "elitists" there. It was a bunch of people who were willing to listen to both sides of the argument.

Apparently you must know something more than all these other sportsmen and women who were there that summer representing over 200 sporting clubs around the state.

I'm not anti gun season. I'm PRO bow season. I believe bow season should be that - a season where bows and arrows are used. Like I said before, many “bowhunters” today take advantage of the easiest possible solutions allowable to the challenges that bowhunting presents and then they look to justify their actions by having archery manufacturers tell them it's okay. You want to bow hunt? Use a bow. We've got a season designed specifically for you. You want to gun hunt or crossbow hunt? We've got a season designed specifically for that as well - firearm season. I enjoy doing both and I enjoy doing them in the season that is appropriate for both. If that's "purist" or "elitist" than call me a purist and an elitist.

I've said about all I can say so like Bob said, I'm gonna let it lie. Good luck, enjoy the rest of the winter and best wishes for this coming fall season.

[DrifterChuck]

Hey Ibow, welcome back into the frey. I think I’m about to bail out on this one pretty soon too.

[Ibow]

LOL - it's pointless Drifter. :rant: :dizzy: :p Might as well just laugh a little bit. :D

[Munsterlndr]

Ibow -

I thought your last post was very clear and well thought out, it helps me understand where you are coming from.

Let's agree to disagree on crossbows during bow season and leave it at that.

I do agree with the concern about the increasing impact that bow season is having on the herd, both in terms of eliminating a growing percentage of breeding bucks prior to the rut and also the increasing percentage of the overall annual kill that is happening during bow season. The DNR's 2003 statistics indicated that bow hunters accounted for approx. 28% of the total harvest and that number was growing around 8.5% a year, so it's clear that at some point some changes will have to be contemplated. Hopefully this can be accomplished without curtailing any of the seasons. I personally would be for a one buck a year limit.

Not trying to stir the embers but let me ask you this: Instead of allowing crossbows during bow season, would you consider a dedicated season for them, even if it meant shortening the current bow season? I realize you can currently use them during rifle season but I'm talking about a seperate season. I don't care if it's before or after rifle season, although if it's after it might have to be a little longer to compensate for the inclement weather. It would have to also be seperate from muzzleloader, a completely seperate season. Would you see this alternative as better than combining crossbow with bow season?

______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Bwana]

Would there ever be point in your mind where a limit should be set on devices used in archery season if the argument could be made that it would increase hunter participation? Because there will always be someone who wants to take it to the next level because the current requirements are just too darn inconvienient.
Yes there is absouloutely a limit that should be set on devices for hunting deer. I don't approve of lasers or Neuron Death Rays in any configuration.;)


How about something that shoots 500 fps or 800 fps?
How about it? If it is drawn under the power of the operator and not propelled by any type of explosive.


How about something with a stock, triger, scope that has all of it's working parts contained inside the stock. Instead of the flat spring (bow arms) that currently supply power to todays crossbows and compound bows. Suppose we change the shape of that spring to a heavy coiled spring that would be highly compressed upon cocking, it's still a spring just a different shape. Now suppose the missle, much smaller now, is still technically propelled by miniture cams and a cable or FF type string contained within the stock and this weapon only had a two foot drop at 100 yards. It would be much more efficient than the older model crossbows that are noisy and cumbersome but hey that's technology and progress, beside it would be a marvel at the sports shows and lots of folks would see the advantages of such a "bow" and again it would increase hunter participation.

As we move along this hypothetical, not too unplausable journey down technology lane, lets take it a step further. We know we have the technology to control model airplanes with remote controls and we have remote camera capability. Suppose we just set up our future weapon with a camera mounted on the stock in the woods overlooking a bait pile. All this we can control from the comfort of our home. Whenever you have a few minutes and want to hunt, switch on the camera and monitor and you are there hunting, but not really. Wouldn't that be the ultimate scent control, wouldn't have to buy those expensive suits. So now you are hunting from your home, imagine the excitement as you are viewing the deer on your monitor and aligning your new bow hunting equipment for the shot, then you push the button. There is a whole generation of kids growing up right now with electronic gaming machines that might find this very attractive. Here we go again better technology and a new group of participants, great for the sport right?
I am not going to argue with you over hypothetical situations that are not even present. But progress has affected every aspect of our sport. It is almost impossible to stop progress. Look at todays guns; ammo; muzzle loaders; optics; laser range finders; archery equipment; etc... and imagine if our oficials had placed strict traditionalist requirements on our products 50 years ago. To not allow crossbows, when they are no more deadly than modern compound bows, only because they shoot differently, can and should be viewed as how drifterchuck?


Again, we all know that many deer when pressured tend to go nocternal and feel safer traveling at night and there are shift workers that can't hunt during daylight hours. Let's advocate night time hunting so we don't exclude those folks, besides I'm sure that would increase hunter participation and it would open a market for a bunch of new gadgets, night vision goggles etc.. See how rediculous this gets.
Hunting at night is a fundamental shift in policy while allowing crossbows, a legal product with no more effectiveness than a compound bow, is a slight modification that would allow others to partake in the sport.



If I can dream this crap up don't you think there are highly educated groups of engineers working in this area that can come up stuff far beyond this simple illustration to propel a bladed shaft far beyond what is currently available today?
And don't you think it is going to be introduced? look at the technological differences from now and just 10 years ago.



The fact is we are not excluding anyone who is willing to take the little time and effort required to shoot what is now defined by law as a bow from participating in bow season.

So let's hear it from all of you folks that want to use crossbows in bow season. Just where would you draw your proverbial line in the sand and say that's enough? Now! I think that would be an interesting discussion on this forum rather than one group attacking another group and calling us names for trying to preserve our sport.
What about the person who is only 65% disabled? Aren't they being excluded?


Bawana, I would especially like to hear from you because no matter where you draw your line, something will eventually come along and be seen as an improvement/advancement and there will always be someone who thinks it should be permitted and made legal because it's easier. It will be at this point where you say more hunter participation is not a valid reason and you will be called an eletist and exclusionary my friend.
I do not know exactley where the right place to place a restriction resides. However, I do believe that a Crossbow, that is no more deadly than currently legal archery equipment, would be fine. It is not deadlier; just more convenient. Just imagine how different bird hunting would be today if over/unders were not allowed because they operated in a different fashion than side/sides.

[Pinefarm]

This has ran it's course and is now too much tit for tat pulling of quote's and disputing line after line. Closed.