Minimum poundage for deer

[dtg]

My friend's son wants to get into bow hunting. Right now he is 10yrs old and pretty slim. My question is what is the least amount of poundage a bow can be to ethically and legally take a deer? For some reason 40#'s is what I'm thinking, any thought's. The reason I ask is right now it's pretty hard for him to pull the 45# bow that I gave him.

[Rasher]

He cant hunt in MI till he 12 anyway so he has got two years to grow and practice to pull #45, make sure you teach him that shot placement is more important that ##, a good cut on contact 2 blade head and 45 will get the job done,IMHO though I'd keep the shots under 25 yards. Again IMO 45 is the least I would go- but I do know a family that the mother has taken Elk with #45 and countless deer with #25, but I dont think I would let my wife or kids do that.

[GrizzlyBear]

I too know of people who have taken deer with absurdly low draw weights, lowest being 29# by a poaching 9 year old. By the time he's twelve, he should have no problems pulling 45#, especially if he shoots a lot.

[MIbowhntr]

Depending upon the kids genetics, within 2 years he should be able to draw 55# nicely. I began hunting at 12 with a 65# bow. All it takes is practice practice and more practice.

[Thunderhead]

More importantly is what broadhead you chose.
There are bone splitters and cut on impact.

This all figures in when that first hunt arrives. I'd get him practicing and increase the poundage as he gets stronger.
When the time to hunt comes, you'll have a better idea what he'll need. 2 years is a long time.

[Swamp Monster]

As others have said, don't worry about if for now....just get him practicing with what ever weight he can handle...don't "over" bow him in the beginning or he'll just develop bad habits/form that will be difficult to correct.

As far as weight goes, 40#'s is more than enough with the right broadhead/arrow combo. Shot placement is key ofcourse. My stepfather (late 60's) shoots a Hoyt cam n' half at 39#'s with carbons and cut on contact broadheads. With field points, it penetrates much deeper than I would have expected in 3d targets. It sends those arrows down range with authority, and I am confident that with a good broadside shot, there isn't a deer in Michigan that this combo won't handle.

With a well tuned bow, razor sharp cut on contact broadhead and nice stiff efficient carbon arrows, he won't have any problems.

I would recommend carbons to start out with...not the super light kind or the heavy kind but a good moderate weight carbon. Youngsters can be tough on arrows and the carbons will hold up better in the long run, making them a better value. (just train him to inspect the arrows often) Plus they are more efficient when it comes to energy transfer from the bow to the arrow and every little bit will help.

[twoatatime]

my first deer was taken at twelve with a 38 pound-pull bow... It Made a clean pass through the deer. :D

[wagoneer]

I consider 40# to be a good minimum. Sure you can kill deer with less, but if your going to put a restiriction on a young whippersnapper, there is no need to set the bar lower.

I am also a big believer in the new bows that are out targeted toward the 40 - 50 # range. I think a new bow designed to shoot in these poundages may be more effective at 40# than an older hand-me-down bow of 45-65 set at 45#. Something to think about.

[SR-Mechead]

Don't start him to high, you will hurt his shoulder. I know a lot of people that have killed deer shooting 30to 35 lbs. Practice is the key.

[markbouman]

.... I would really think it important to limit shots to 20 yards or less. Obviously, he has 2 yrs left before hunting but that's kind of where I am with my son right now (he'll be 12 in Nov). He loves to go back to 35-40 with me now but knows that 20 is going to be the MAXIMUM - and nothing but BROADSIDE OR SLIGHTLY QUARTERING AWAY.

Practice, practice, practice.

[Joe Archer]

The important thing is to get youngers into the woods. If all they can pull is 30 pounds, I think that will be fine to take a deer. However, at 30 pounds I would use carbon arrows for speed, and as others have mentioned a sharp, smaller diameter, cut-on-contact broad head. I think at 40 pounds, with the good set-up they could extend the yardage out to 15 yards, and 45 pounds out to 20 yards.
I disagree with one statement read previously... carbons are faster, but not "more efficient in transer of energy". Lighter arrows are in fact less efficient than heavier, in transfer of energy. <----<<<

[Captain of the 4-C's]

My 13 year old son put an arrow completely thru a deer using a thunderhead 120 grain 3 blade. Stuck in the ground without falling over (he pulled it out of the dirt before I saw it.) Distance was 16 yards and the arrow length/diameter/wall thickness he was shooting was really for a 50 pound bow (the weight I intend to get him up to.) He could shoot 50 #'s now - but at 40, he can hold at full draw for at least 45 seconds without a lot of shaking. My mother took a deer using a 29 pound recurve and it dropped within 50 yards using a bear broadhead with a bleeder insert from a ground blind. The arrow did not pass all the way thru but did stop just under the hide. Between this post and the ones above - I think you have a good picture of what is possible and ethical.

[Swamp Monster]

I disagree with one statement read previously... carbons are faster, but not "more efficient in transer of energy". Lighter arrows are in fact less efficient than heavier, in transfer of energy. <----<<<

Not necessarily...when I mention transfer of energy, I'm talking about the energy of the bowstring transfered to the arrow. Carbons are stiffer so they don't don't flex like aluminum arrows at the release so they are more efficient....they also don't flex at target impact as much either, again more efficient at energy transfer. The flexing aluminum arrow is soaking up and wasting some of this energy transfer. You can go with a little lighter carbon to gain speed and not loose the efficiency of the heavier arrow. Now, I'm not talking about kinetic energy figures, just that carbon makes better use (more efficient) of what energy it does have. I also mentioned to go with a moderate weight carbon, not the superlight variety or the really heavy variety for the best trade off of speed and KE.

[john warren]

my first bow was a 35# fiberglass shakespere. i took 7 deer with that bow. we somehow fall into a trap of shooting a bow thats too heavy for us. especialy for young people , they should shoot a bow they can feel confident in hitting what their shooting at. shot placement is everything. doesn't matter how fast an arrow goes threw a none vital spot. but an arrow that goes half way threw a deer will ruin a heart.

[Joe Archer]

Not necessarily...when I mention transfer of energy, I'm talking about the energy of the bowstring transfered to the arrow. Carbons are stiffer so they don't don't flex like aluminum arrows at the release so they are more efficient....they also don't flex at target impact as much either, again more efficient at energy transfer. The flexing aluminum arrow is soaking up and wasting some of this energy transfer. You can go with a little lighter carbon to gain speed and not loose the efficiency of the heavier arrow. Now, I'm not talking about kinetic energy figures, just that carbon makes better use (more efficient) of what energy it does have. I also mentioned to go with a moderate weight carbon, not the superlight variety or the really heavy variety for the best trade off of speed and KE.

I am not sure how else to measure transfer of energy if you don't use kinetic energy calculations. In the end, it is based on speed and weight and gives a good idea how much of the stored energy of the limbs are transfered to an arrow. I am not saying that carbons do not perform well, or do not have advantages. I am just saying that transfer of energy as measured by kinetic energy (if there is another way to measure stored energy of a projectile that doesn't incorporate performance please let me know) favors a heavier projectile. All that said, for lighter draw weight archers, I would recommend carbons. <----<<<

[Swamp Monster]

All that stored energy in the bow limbs and cams have to be transfered to the arrow right?
I understand what your saying, but just watch slow motion video of a correctly spined aluminum arrow at the moment of release from the bow string compared to a correctly spined carbon arrow at release from the bow string. The Aluminum flexes a great deal, the carbon does not. This flexing wastes some of the energy transfer from the bow string. Same thing at impact. If an aluminum arrow strikes a target with 65 ft lbs of KE and a carbon arrow strikes the same target (same broadhead etc) with the exact same KE, you can guarantee the carbon will penetrate better. At impact, some of the KE in the aluminun arrow will be wasted due to all the flex..the stiff carbon doesn't waste this energy because it will not flex nearly as much. This is how it is more efficient. The KE equation itself will never change, but how that energy is transfered, stored, and deposited will.

[Joe Archer]

I know we are getting off track here, so this will be my last post. The motion of the arrow you see upon release is not a factor. It has been proven that even with this paradox and a properly tuned bow, more energy is transfered to a heavier aluminum arrow. As for transfer of energy at the target, I am not sure if that has ever been measured. Again, this would be more of a performance report rather than a kinetic energy measurement. There are just too many variables to consider in this equation. The bottom line is heavier aluminum arrows cary more kinetic energy than lighter carbons. Thus, the transer of energy from the bow itself is more effecient. People get adequate performance and penetration with EITHER carbon, or aluminum. I don't think anything else really matters. <----<<<

[Swamp Monster]

Again, I know that heavier arrows carry more KE....regardless of the material they are made with. Thats not my point. Take a 485 grain carbon arrow and a 485 grain aluminum arrow, fire them from the same bow (same velocity ofcourse because the weight is the same) with the same broadhead/fieldpoint, and the carbon will out penetrate the aluminum even though they have the same mathematical KE. Thats what I'm talking about in regards to efficiency in a summed up version. lol!

[TnRidge]

Back on track . Each state has it's own minimum standards for draw weight .It's best to check the regs .;)

[deerslayer#1]

Joe Archer is correct. Carbons shoot faster because they are lighter, but at longer distances they slow much faster. The heavier arrows absorb more energy, and retain more of thier speed because of the retained energy. The reason a carbon might penetrate deeper is because it is smaller in diameter, wich has less resistance.

Check the hunting laws to find the correct answer to minimum draw weight.

[Swamp Monster]

[QUOTE=deerslayer#1]Joe Archer is correct. Carbons shoot faster because they are lighter, but at longer distances they slow much faster. The heavier arrows absorb more energy, and retain more of thier speed because of the retained energy. The reason a carbon might penetrate deeper is because it is smaller in diameter, wich has less resistance.

QUOTE]
Huh??
OK,OK, Carbons ONLY shoot faster IF they are lighter!! Their are heavy carbons on the market....just as heavy as similiar spined aluminums....their are also fat shafted carbons on the market as well..

Please reread agian where I am comparing two arrows of the SAME weight, just different material....again, materail has nothing to do with speed, weight does. This is what I said in the last post:

Take a 485 grain carbon arrow and a 485 grain aluminum arrow, fire them from the same bow (same velocity ofcourse because the weight is the same) with the same broadhead/fieldpoint, and the carbon will out penetrate the aluminum even though they have the same mathematical KE.

My argument has nothing to do with velocity loss downrange, etc, it has to do with which arrow will penterate best (all things being equal...arrow weight, velocity, broadhead/fieldpoint, target etc) It's this all things equal I think folks seem to be missing.

[michigandeerslayer]

practice practice practice... I could kill a deer with a 25 pound bow because i can shoot good.. Shot placement is the key not the weight of the bow, anything under 20 yards he will be good. Most shots are taken under 20 yards, I have one bow set at 55# for the close spot and i have one set at 75# for the long spot, but again I practice and practice, to get the perfect shot placement


PS
Sharp broadheads help alot also

Rich

[wyle_e_coyote]

My friend's son wants to get into bow hunting. Right now he is 10yrs old and pretty slim. My question is what is the least amount of poundage a bow can be to ethically and legally take a deer? For some reason 40#'s is what I'm thinking, any thought's. The reason I ask is right now it's pretty hard for him to pull the 45# bow that I gave him.

here you go dtg. You seem to be getting allot of answers to the ethical part, but as for the legal part.. This is right from the dnr web sites "ask the dnr"..
---- 01/29/2003 06:19 PM ---------------------------------------------
1. Is there a minimum draw weight to hunt white tail in Michigan?
2. My son turns 12 Nov 6, when is the earliest he can take hunters safety?http://midnr.custhelp.com/rnt/rnw/img/trnsp.gif Answer There is no minimum draw weight for archery equipment to hunt whitetaild deer in Michigan.
Your son can a hunter safety course at any time, however he must be at least 12 years old in order to purchase the hunting licence. In his case now, he can take hunter safety now but he must wait untill Nov. 6th to purchase the hunting license.


My son started bow hunting this year, he can hold and shot 35lbs comfortably. I limit him to 20yrds, because that is end of his capability when we shot at home. He shot ever day after school for 2 mounths before season, and still does now after season.
This past season he had many deer within 30yrds that he passed, even a decent 8 point. I was very proud of him as he let a yearling doe pass right under him hoping that buck would come in. He also passed on a button buck at 10yrds, because he saw it was a button buck. I even told him that he could shot whatever he wanted for his first deer. He never did take a deer this past season. He told me it was still very fun and exciting, to have deer that close. Kids, you gotta love 'em !
He did not even get too mad later on when I shot that 8 point with my bow...LOL

[timj]

My son took a couple of spikes shooting a youth bow set at 30lbs.
(on subsequent years)
He was using aluminum arrows with 80 grain wasp broadheads.
One was shot at 20 yards the other one at 15 yards. Both were good hits & the deer never went more than 50 yards. Those were the only deer that he ever shot at with that bow. Than he got hurt, missed a year, got an adult bow. And hasn't taken a deer with Archery equitment since although he has had a few misses. I keep telling him, he should go back to his old bow ;)
Actually now that he is older he doesn't listen to Dad's advice about practice, practice, practice

[dtg]

I was driving tacks witht his bow I gave to my freind's son, but was dissapointed with the drop from 20-30' I missed a few does with it. I lost many fletching s off many arrows with that bow, now I shoot a Browning Afterburner that really zings them, but I don't have that tight arowing kissing accuracy anymore, more like a 2-3"grouping, which has been just fine for the 2 bucks I have taken

[john warren]

now this is interesting. calculating the energy of an arrow in flite... how much energy does it take to reach a deers heart with a given broadhead? i assume if you can reach his heart, you would also cause fatal lung injury if you don't hit his heart.
howmuch to penitrate both lungs?
howmuch to pass threw?
it might be way less then expected, and without that info what does the kenetic energy of an arrow tell us? are we using an arrow that could be made faster if we drop the energy requirements? or do weneed more weight less speed?
this is making my brain hurt. wish ishi was here to answer these questions.

[john warren]

WHAT? a son that doesn't listen to dad? you must jest.

dont sweat it by the time hes in his mid twenties you'll get a lot smarter

My son took a couple of spikes shooting a youth bow set at 30lbs.
(on subsequent years)
He was using aluminum arrows with 80 grain wasp broadheads.
One was shot at 20 yards the other one at 15 yards. Both were good hits & the deer never went more than 50 yards. Those were the only deer that he ever shot at with that bow. Than he got hurt, missed a year, got an adult bow. And hasn't taken a deer with Archery equitment since although he has had a few misses. I keep telling him, he should go back to his old bow ;)
Actually now that he is older he doesn't listen to Dad's advice about practice, practice, practice

[fishkram]

My son is 8 and like i was at that age,,, i was smarter than my dad. Even if my son is "smarter" than i, i hope that he sees the time and care that i put into making a good shot, on each and every shot. I have my confidence boosting shooting times where i am really focused on hitting a particular spot in a particular stand or position. After that, the fun really begins as we have our "call your shot" games which is basically playing DEER in if you can not get closer than the other guy on a called shot, you get a letter.

I may not be smarter than he is, but when i call a shot, i deliver. He sees this and is coming around to asking his dad for some advice as he would like to do the same. The best that i can do is be a good example of practice, practice, practice, and know your limits.

[rzdrmh]

40# is a good start. could he shoot less? sure. more? sure.

just like everything, there are trade offs. like hunting with a rifle - how much is enough?

i would recommend this.

pick a weight that he can comfortably hold for 30 seconds.

have him limit himself to ranges that he can maintain a 3" group, even at the end of a long session.

meet both criteria, he'll be killing deer.

let his ability dictate poundage and distance, not a pre-defined expectation.

[NorthJeff]

I had a 12 year old on the property this year that used 36#'s to completely pass through a deer at 15 yards and harvested his first deer ever while his dad and I sat in a rifle blind below him and watched the entire thing. The bow looked like a toy, the arrows looked like we just replaced the suction cup with a Montec, but it did the job and the deer only went 50-60 yards.

I also know a guy who's 3 boys all harvested their first deer with a bow at 30#'s.(they were 10 and it was illegal...but that's another topic!). The shots were recorded on video and the poundage seemed perfectly adequate.

[MIbowhntr]

I recommend the BOwtech Sampson at 100 pounds.

[Chuck]

Dont get cought up in the heavy poundage craze. Most guys are way over bowed and suffer for it in the long run resulting in injury and poor shooting.

As others have said let him find what weight is good for him. If he can hold it for 30 seconds or longer and shoot well then thats the weight that is best for him. He should be able to raise the bow slowly and draw back slowly on his target.

Most older bows used by by the early americans were around 20-30 # and they proved very effective for them.