Crossbows: Re-thinking the Status Quo

[Lee Gerdermain]

I am in the market for a new crossbow. While doing some Internet research on various models, I came across this profoundly good article that was on one crossbow manufacturer's website. I suggest that anybody that has any feelings, for or against, hunting with a crossbow read this ENTIRE article before stating any opinion on the subject at hand.

http://www.tenpointcrossbows.com/PDFs/Archery_Season.pdf

After reading this article, a thought occurred to me, specifically: why do we allow hundreds and perhaps thousand of archery deer hunters to exit our ranks each and every day, simply because of a diminished physical ability that typically arrives with advancing age?

Moreover, why is it that at a time hunters need to augment and strengthen their ranks, when they are being attacked from virtually every corner of an anti-hunting society, do we ourselves say “no” to a those people who that are very much "ready and willing" to stay in this sport, but increasingly, are no longer "able"?

And yes, I'm am fully aware that provisions that are made for handicapped individuals in this State and others, permitting them to hunt with a crossbow, regardless of age. I know this because I am one of them. Frankly, if it were not for this law, archery hunting catagorically would not be on my radar screen whatsoever. So, I very much appreciate the insightfulness of the legislation that occurred circa 10 years ago.

However, I am, and others like me, are part of a very small minority. I, by God’s hands, meet some very stringent criteria that must be validated by others in order to “qualify”(if that is the correct word) to remain in a sport that I have passionately enjoyed for over 30 years. Others, regretfully, do not meet this strict criteria but are nevertheless unable to continue in this sport for no obvious and/or overt reason other than their body simply no longer allows them to! After all, bow hunting is an activity that does require some significant physical dexterity. As we all get older, this dexterity slips away.

Here’s an example: Imagine two trains running on parallel tracks. On track one is the bullet train, which can be equated to youth; fast, sleek and having the ability to traverse every hill and valley without effort. On track two is an old rusting locomotive that can be equated to those of us in their “advance years”; obviously slower, sleek being but a fond and distant memory, and having ability to traverse the hills and valleys, but only with some type of help. And do not be fooled; For all of us there will come the time when the tracks will switch and you will gradually and inevitably depart the bullet train only to continue your journey with far ability and glamour than before. Oh yeah, also by God’s hands.

As a solution, I do not propose that hunting with a crossbow be made generally accessible to all, like what happens in Ohio and other States. I don’t think Michigan is ready for that, nor do I think it’s warranted. Rather, I do propose that serious consideration be given to allowing hunting with a crossbow to any individual who so chooses by no other criteria other than the fact that they have reached the age of 50, irrespective of having a physical handicap or otherwise. Look again at my two interrogatories above: Folks, it just makes sense! Finally, I have chosen to start this thread here versus the “Archery” forum or “Sound Off” forum because I believe these matters are beyond just “archery” and this is by no means an editorial or personal gripe. I simply believe that the plusses outweigh any minuses by so much here that we should commit towards making this thing happen.

“All aboard”.

[trout]

I don’t think Michigan is ready for that, nor do I think it’s warranted.

That statement sums up alot, but it's unfounded.
People really do believe that crossbows are unsporting and that they are sooo deadly.
Truth is the have there draw backs as do compounds and long bows.
If you hunt grouse with a SxS vs. a auto loader, in some circles you'd be cheating, same thought prevails with the crosbow.

Our goal as hunters should only be a clean kill no matter what the means, within the law of course.

I hunt from the ground now and I feel tree stands are a way to lose touch with the overall hunt, this is of course my own feeling that I impose solely on myself.
I only wish others viewed crossbows the same.
You don't have to use a weapon to approve of it's use.
With so many different seasons today for deer, why not have a one week long cross bow hunting season?
I share my black powder seasons with modern inline guns that can out shoot my percussion by a margin of 200 yards with no real complaints.
I use that as an example to those who are against the crossbows.
Hunting is hunting if done in accordance of the laws.
Sportsmanship is a mindset.

[One Eye]

50?? You have to be kidding me. I have many friends who are over 50 that could draw more weight and are stronger than many teenagers. My dad is 59, and he is very active and quite strong enough to draw up to 70 pounds. Why pick 50? The average life expectancy is 79 and quickly increasing. Many people work phycially demanding jobs until well past 50. If we are losing hunters due to the difficulty you describe, how do you explain the number of firearm hunters declining? Clearly the firearm is easier to use for older hunters, is it not?

The length of our current Archery season was established because archery hunting was hard and low impact on the resource. Of course, now we know that technology has changed all that. In addition, the herd size and the politics of herd reduction have continued to perpetuate the need for the longer seasons. In my opinion, archery hunting has currently peaked due to many finding out that it isn't quite as easy as was sold to them. IMO, this is not a bad thing. We don't need more 3 season hutners simply for "numbers", but rather we need more committed hunters.

I could go on and on about this subject, but I will sum up my opinion as brief as possible. As we age, there are many things that we can no longer do due to physical and mental changes in our bodies. This is simply a fact of life. I know many men 70 and older that still hunt with traditional archery equipment and would never touch a crossbow.

I have a better idea if you are concerned about the losing of participants as they age. #1, recruit more youth. This is our single largest challenge. #2, return the quality experience that many used to enjoy before the commercialization and rampant competition that is present in hunting.

Dan

[Lee Gerdermain]

I have a better idea if you are concerned about the losing of participants as they age. #1, recruit more youth. This is our single largest challenge. #2, return the quality experience that many used to enjoy before the commercialization and rampant competition that is present in hunting.
Dan[/QUOTE] \
First, I disagree with your statement that you have better idea. ALL ideas are "good".

Frankly, I dont care who sets on top of the priority pyramid. Recruiting youth is good, and yes, PART of the challenge (notice that I don't say "problem".) There's an old addage in business that applies here: "The best customer is the one you already have."

Less commercialization is valid also, and again PART of the challenge however, I have some difficulty connecting the dots on this one as it relates to this subject.

Seniors leaving the sport of bow hunting as I have illustrated, yepper, you guessed it: PART of the challenge. My quetion to you is; Why do these issues need to be be mutually exclusive? Each/every has its own circumstance: I have merely articulated upon one of them.

Lee G

[2-BIG]

I agree with One Eye 100%! :)

[Lee Gerdermain]

Well then, I guess the way I positioned the subject, to those who indeed read this thread, this idea apppears to be have some merit and worthy of further consideration, if by no other criteria than the lack of impusive negative feedback. Guess it's now time to write some letters.

[2-BIG]

I believe that the reason for lack of negative feedback is due to the fact that this isn't a new topic. It has been hashed and rehashed many, many times on this and other forums as well as in MOOD magazine and others.
Age should never be a factor. There is already a system to allow someone who is physically incapable to shoot a bow and needs to shoot a crossbow. It is non descriminative in age, sex, or any other nature. Just physical ability as it should be.

[Brian S]

Great post Lee!

Keep us informed. I'm sure many members here would support your efforts and send their letters as well.

[2-BIG]

I'm pretty sure that a house bill that would have allowed ALL seniors to use a crossbow in the archery only season died in committee this year. ;)

[2-BIG]

Lee, are you from Michigan? I've never heard of Oalnad county. :confused:

[Trophy Specialist]

There is already a system to allow someone who is physically incapable to shoot a bow and needs to shoot a crossbow.
Actually, that statement is not true. The law is much more complex than that and in so doing, many hunters with handicaps fall through the cracks and unfortunately can't hunt during archery season as a result.

The law states that, "A hunter with a disability applying for a crossbow permit must have at least 80 percent permanent disability, in combination or individual impairment, of a hand, elbow or shoulder. The disability may be the result of amputation or other injury or disability."

My father-in-law fell from a ladder and broke his elbow and shoulder. His left arm (he is right handed) is now (and forever) locked at the elbow in a 45 degree angle. He can't raise his arm up past his waist either. He is also a senior and has many other health problems that further handicap him. Now you would think that he would be a shoe-in for a crossbow permit right? Wrong!!! He applied for a permit and was denied the first time because his doctor would not sign the form because the doc did not know if he met the 80 percent disability rule. The doctor told him that the law was too confusing and he didn’t want to jeopardize his medical license by signing the form. Of course he had no problem charging him though. My father in law had to go to two other doctors before he finally got the permit, which cost him hundreds of dollars, which he really couldn't afford in the first place.

The law is unnecessarily confusing and restrictive. It should read something like this instead, "A hunter who is no longer physically capable to shoot a hunting bow accurately, without pain is eligible to obtain a crossbow permit." I'd also like to see the law simplified so that a hunter's doctor has the final say on weather a person is physically capable of accurately shooting a hunting bow. As it stands now, a hunter must get both a doctor and a physical therapist to test the hunter and sign off on the application for the crossbow permit.

And while I’m on a role, I’d also like to see the law changed where anybody that is handicapped as a result of serving in the armed forces should be exempt from all federal and state taxes and fees including hunting and fishing licenses.

[Lee Gerdermain]

The age of the average bow hunter is 35.9 years. Those in 35-44 age group make up 9% of all people who hunt. From there, it begins to go south radically:



45-54 = 8%


55-64 = 6%


65+ = 3%
Compound this with the fact that hunters overall are decreasing at a rate of about 7% every 5 years, it’s easy to see where much of the attrition comes from; age demographics!! Bottom line: we’re not doing a very good job recruiting new participants into the sport, but , to my point, we're doing an excellent job at letting those we already got slip away!

The State of Wisconsin allows hunting with a crossbow for those 65 years of age and older. While it has brought some back into the sport, it is, in the final analysis, too little, too late. The gradual, but certain exodus from bow hunting begins around age 50; my original point. What happens is, the bow hunter simply puts his/her equipment away at the end of one season and simply “fades away”. 15 years is far too long a period of time to recruit a person BACK into this sport, particularly when you already had them to begin with.

Oh yeah, another statistic that I should mention: The average bow hunter is 35.9 years of age and has an average household income of around $42,000. The income demographics surrounding the 50+ age group is DOUBLE that. Not only are we letting the person slip through our hands, we're letting his/her money go too.

Finally, for too long the anti-crossbow contingent has been but a vieled message that simply boils down to the fact that they don't want more people in their woods, shooting their deer, in their season. They put lots of spin on their arguments, but it eventually comes down to that.

In light of the rock solid statistics illustrated here, I believe that I have proposed a very fair compromise.


*2001 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife Recreation: Michigan (next survey: 2006) *AMO “The facts about bow hunting & target archery”

[2-BIG]

With Michigans combo tags system I don't have a clue as to how they figure who is bowhunting and who is gun hunting. How do they figure the average age of a bowhunter or anything else? :confused:

[Lee Gerdermain]

With Michigans combo tags system I don't have a clue as to how they figure who is bowhunting and who is gun hunting. How do they figure the average age of a bowhunter or anything else? :confused:

The statistics are principally gathered in "The National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife Recreation", which is a very comprehensive documnet put out every 5 years by the Diviuson of Wildlfe and Fisheries, US Department of the Interior. It is published as a national version and state by state version.

btw--have I converted you over yet?:)

[2-BIG]

Sorry, no convert here. ;) I don't wish for anybody that has the desire to bowhunt to be left out regardless of age. I just wish that people that are physically capable to shoot a bow would do just that, and those that can't could be issued a handicap crossbow permit.
I tore my rotator cuff and biceps tendon one summer. I couldn't even lift my arm up and after repair surgery I had to teach myself to shoot bow with my other hand. My shoulder has never recovered after surgery and that was 7 years ago. I still shoot bow with my opposite hand. To me its a matter of my desire to shoot my longbows and recurves.
I know a 92 year old man that makes his own bows and kills deer with them each fall. Have I converted you yet? :) If not I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. ;) Take care!

[Munsterlndr]

Just a quick question, do other states allow hunting deer with a crossbow (not just for handicapped but for everybody) and if so has it had a negative impact on hunting? Not trying to start a controversy I'm just curious.

I used to bow hunt with a compound, did it for 5 or 6 years and then gave it up primarily because I had young kids and also got a bird dog and spent most of my fall hunting time bird hunting. I enjoyed the time hunting with a bow but felt it took up too much time during the summer and fall practicing. I was always very concerned about wounding a deer and losing it so I wanted to be as proficient as possible and that required a lot of practive (at least for me it did).

I would guess that there are quite a few guys & gals in a similar situation regarding the lack of adequete time for bow hunting. If it was legal to use a cross bow I would probably give it a try and I would guess that it would take much less time to become proficient than with a long bow or compound.

Like I said I don't care about this issue that much, I'm just curious about what is so terrible about crossbows. I guess I remember when you could not hunt from a treestaand with a firearm in Michigan and it seems like there were about 40 other states that allowed it and Michigan was a big holdout. Now I look back and wonder what was the big deal and why did it take us so long to change the law, and I wonder if the crossbow issue is similar or whether there are really some legitimate reasons for not allowing general use of crossbows.

_____________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[huntingfool43]

Like I said I don't care about this issue that much, I'm just curious about what is so terrible about crossbows.

The biggest problem is the misconception of the abilitys of a cross bow. I felt the same way untill I was faced with using one or stop bow hunting. They are no more lethal than a modern compound but a lot of people will not believe it. What gets me, when bow season came about there were no pulleys,cabels, over draws etc. but all that stuff is fine but god forbid because it sits on the end of a stock and can be drawn and held in the ready to shoot position it should never be allowed.

[farmlegend]

All right, you sold me. I'll go with age 53 1/2.

[Lee Gerdermain]

It is assuring to know that a Michigan-Sportsman.com "legend", specifically "Farmlegend" has come to the side of logic and common sense on this issue.


As I stated previously, I will continue to work towards its enactment.

[jimmyboy]

Isn't the MI Bowhunters orgn the major adversary of crossbow hunting? I've heard they have influence with the MDNR/NRC on archery matters. We may have to convince them to get a foot in the door. You are right about the false mistique concerning crossbow range and accuracy.They possess comparable limitations to current compound bows. I'm pushing 70 and am fortunate to still be able to handle my 65lb Martin with ease. I am not at all concerned negatively about any or all of us using a crossbow and am all for legalizing them in MI without age OR handicap considerations if you can handle it safely. Munsterindr is right IMO,what's the big deal MI?

[Pinefarm]

Making it so anyone over 65 can hunt with a crossbow is fair for everyone. IMHO. And IMHO, those who say that anyone over 65 who can't pull back a bow better get whipped into shape are being kind of selfish. Many people 65 and older are lucky to be able to walk up the stairs or bend over to pick up the newspaper, let along pull back a bow. But there isn't some specific injury to get a special handicapped permit. Just stop and think about that. Nearly every guy I bow hunted with as a kid, who's still alive, has had to stop bow hunting even though they still really want to. If it was me, I'm not sure what I would do if I was in the older guys shoes. Martin Luther King said "An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law...I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."
I think a bunch of 70 somethings quietly putting on their camo and hobbling out to their tent blinds with their crossbows in a act of civil disobedience would be a mass scene that would make those who want to exclude them feel utterly ashamed.
This law isn't in place because of common sense or justice and it certainly has nothing to do with deer management. MDNR wants more hunters in the woods killing deer, not less. IMHO, It's in place because one hunting group and written a law for itself and found a way to get it passed so it excludes a whole other group of hunters based on bias.
The AARP is far stronger than any small group of "bow" hunters or small group of stick bow shooters. Maybe some senior should get the AARP to break the legs of someone in Lansing? :lol: :p :lol:
To me, excluding the very people that introduced us to this sport is selfish and shameful. And as the baby boomers boats crash on the 65 shore, the sooner this old rule gets changed the better. My .02

[ETm]

Using your logic "Lee" the state of Michigan should issue handicap parking permits to each and every senior or person over 50 years of age. Wonder why that isn't being done for us seniors?

[jimmyboy]

Having previously qualified for"old geezer" status.this senior is pleased NOT to qualify for a handicapped parking permit -- YET,thank you, and symphasize with those who do. I fail to see the corelation to crossbows and age as well,ETm.

[Randy Kidd]

Good post Bob..I agree, Yes I am on the verge of MAYBE having to use a Xbow because of injury to my elbow 2 years ago, I also have arthritis, and I have had angioplasty due to a heart attack..I am 52 years old..Now having said all of that, I was a proponent of Xbows long before my health conditions cropped up..I have never owned one myself, but I have a realative who has been using one for 10 years now, and I used to shoot with him. His accuracy and range were no different than mine using a compound bow. And when I would shoot the Xbow myself I did no better with it either. The only advantage that I can see an Xbow has over compounds/recurves/longbows is not having to draw and hold. with todays bows, some having greater than 90% letoff the hold part becomes less an issue..The hardest part of bowhunting we all know, is getting in range for a shot. In that catagory Xbows and "traditional" bows are equal..I think it is time for Michigan to allow Xbows during the archery season for everybody..Me I just might have the permit for it next year anyway, depends on how my surgery and rehab goes..My Orthopedist has already said he would sign it if I NEEDED it.

[Lee Gerdermain]

[QUOTE=ETm]Using your logic "Lee" the state of Michigan should issue handicap parking permits to each and every senior or person over 50 years of age


To your point, trying to draw a comparison between the two subjects (handicap parking and having a handicap to hunt with a crossbow ) is silly. Besides, my position here has nothing to do with "handicaps" etc. other than inevitable and eventual physical limitations that naturally occur with age. Archery, being an activity that requires a certain amount of physical dexterity, becomes more and more difficult as one gets older. Many archers simply abandon the sport because of this. And THIS is my point: when they go, they stay gone, and so does their money.

We have to look at this picture in its totality, and not just from an altruistic
"I'm a healthy 35 year old, flat belly, at the top of my game" approach.
BELIEVE ME, things WILL change.

Look, the sport of archery hunting as we know it today is a relatively young sport in the total scheme of things. In 1970, there were about 75,000 bow hunters in this State. With the advent of the compound bow, these numbers grew to about 375,000 and has remained constant through today. Now, we assume that the people coming into the sport will simply replace those that leave at an equal rate. Well, the numbers clearly don't support that theory, In fact, as 3 leave, only 1 replaces him/her.

I don’t know about you, but that kind of attrition rate scares the crap out of me. So, all I am doing is focusing upon one are of the attrition component, specifically: the "rotating out" part. And, I believe that I have present some very solid and salient points to support that position. Now, I'll leave the challenge to the "recruiting in" part to some other capable zealot.

And, BOB@BBT, thank you for your support. Your voice carries a lot of credibility in this community. Regretfully, I differ with you on the selection of age 65 as the "magic age" when an individual can/should be allowed to hunt with a crossbow. As I mentioned, this profound exodus begins much sooner than that, as the numbers clearly show; starting in the mid-40's. You’re a businessman; you know the demographics of your buyers better than anybody here! My position is that if you wait to someone reaches their 65th birthday to make this happen, I can tell you with 100% certainty, the faithful left the church about 15 years ago!

We have to dismantle the mind block surrounding this issue the same way we have the emergence of the compound bow 30 years ago. As we look back, we know now that that didn't hurt anybody. In fact, it grew the sport by over 800% in 10 short years.

[Pinefarm]

Does anyone know how many people work in the office that issue's crossbow permits? Does anyone know how many people applied for crossbow permits in Michigan last year? How have those numbers changed since the program was started? Does anyone know what the projected number of applications is for 2010? Does having a friendly relationship with your doctor assure you a permit and not knowing your doctor assure a denial? Do we want to make it such a bureaucratic nightmare where, in the future, 25% of all bow hunters are applying to an office with 2-4 people working at it with a $20,000 budget? Would 200 applications coming in a day be acceptable? How about 500? Would a 6 month waiting period be acceptable due to the office backlog? A year?
Here is the current permit standard...
"A hunter with a disability applying for a crossbow permit must have at least 80 percent permanent disability, in combination or individual impairment, of a hand, elbow or shoulder. The disability may be the result of amputation or other injury or disability."
My question then is, do those who expect hunters to whip themselves into shape to use a compound expect that from hunters with only a 70% permanent disability? 65%? Does a back injury apply? How about cancer? Heart disease?
Is there any scientific reason for this rule? Or is it just one group with better connections saying they don't like the other?
There'll come a point when all of us posting here will be making the decision to give up the sport due to physical limitations. Not a handicap, merely the rigors aging. I should hope that the only thing stopping me from legally bow hunting is not a law passed because a small, powerful, monolithic archers lobby once got the ear of a sympathetic legislator. I should also hope that when (God willing) I'm a senior, that the hunters in the majority age are just as magnanimous with their deer, woods and shared hunting experience as I am suggesting we should be with the seniors now. And just as the seniors were, when they did us the same favor years back.
Again, just my .02. There's no point in me posting anymore on this issue because my opinion cannot be swayed from doing what is right.

[Pinefarm]

opp's, I guess one post to answer Lee. ;) If it is was proven that we got to the point where we did not have enough hunters to keep the deer numbers in check, then a lower age should be considered. Right now, 65 is the age for senior tags. 65 is the cut off line. One way or another, this issue will need to be addressed. We lost 4% of our hunters last year. Will it be 4% again this year? If we lose 20% of our hunters by 2010 and the baby boomers are dropping out of the sport like flies, do we just kiss them off? I say it makes sense to address the issue now, as opposed to waiting until it's probably too late. My .02

[Lee Gerdermain]

Sir, we are in violent agreement!!

For too long the anti-crossbow contingent has been but a vieled message that simply boils down to the fact that they don't want more people in their woods, shooting their deer, in their season. They put lots of spin on their arguments, but it eventually comes down to that.

I am certain that the statistics regarding handicapped permits is available if someone checked in with the

Licence control section-crossbow program
MDNR
PO BOX 30181
Lansing, MI 48909-7681

With regards to individuals obtaining crossbow permits while not meeting the criteria set forward: I have to think that the DNR has bigger fish to fry. Perhaps this is a good question to ask of Boehr. I think we already know what his answer will be.

[Trophy Specialist]

All the DNR has to do is simplify the crossbow elegibility process. The only thing that should be necessary for a person to hunt with a crossbow is a note from his or her doctor in their possession saying that they are not able to shoot a hunting bow accurately without pain or undue stress. That’s all it should take. No costly permit application process is even needed.

[huntingfool43]

When I applied for my Cross Bow permit I didn't see my doctor, had to go see a Physical therapist to have the testing done. You fill out most of the paper yourself, the therapist fills out their part and you send it in and it is signed and sent back to you. There's not a lot of time involved on the DNR's end and the only down fall I see is the 76 dollars for the test.

Trophy Specialist

If all that was required is a slip from your doctor I could see a lot of abuse as BBT said, If you are freinds with your doctor he will pretty much give you what you want.

As far as people using false info to obtain permit a permit it is a Mistormeaner punishable by up to 90 days or a fine from $200 to $1000 or both.

[Pinefarm]

Just to clarify, (I claimed I was done posting on this one ;)) I'm saying that there's a growing number of hunters with 50-70% disability, who want to continue to hunt, tried to get a permit and were turned down. Yet they can't pull back a conventional bow. They're the "in between's". The guys who can't pull a bow but can't get a 80% disability permit. And as the boomers age, those numbers will skyrocket in the next few years to the point where they may makeup 40-50% of all hunters. And in the future, a potential couple 100,000 hunters are supposed to deal with the small special permit office? So, they have to stop hunting, at least legally, even though they still desire to do so. I don't talk to too many of them at the store, but I've heard enough stories from guys coming in that fall into this group that it disturbs me and I feel it's wrong. And in many cases, these guys are still going to bow hunt. But now they have to illegally sneek around with their crossbow. A law that makes law breakers out of guys only trying to do the right thing.
Look, I'm not suggesting crossbows for everyone. I would only shoot one if I had to. But times and demographic change. It wasn't too long ago that a cell phone or computer was only for the Uber Rich. And I seem to recall many of these same agruments when the debate was guys being able to gun hunt out of tree's and elevated blinds. Remember that one? That was suppposed to end the world as we know it. But it didn't. I'm just asking for everyone to look at the big picture here.
I did a quick search on hunter demographics and this very interesting tidbit came up from Missouri's DNR. They are addressing the problem of aging hunters. Although our MDNR is very aware of it also. This is an issue that we hunters need to come to grips with and admit is happening.
http://www.mdc.missouri.gov/hunt/deer/deertuk/one.htm

"Balancing the composition of the deer herd will become more critical in the years to come. Hunters are the most effective and reliable means of controlling deer numbers, but a large portion of Missouri's deer hunters are part of the “baby-boom generation” whose average age inches up each year. Surveys indicate that older hunters tend to take fewer deer. At the same time, a growing number of deer hunters are asking for herd management that produces more older-aged bucks. Responding to these trends will require a shift in how Missourians use hunting to manage the deer herd and the introduction of new hunters to the sport."

[Randy Kidd]

Again nice post Bob..I myself fear becoming an "in-between" in the next few months, While my biggest wish is to be able to draw my bow again, There is a distinct possibility that after surgery I will not regain 100% use of my left arm, and predictions by the numerous Orthopedists I have seen have ranged anywhere from 100% repair to a 50% chance of no improvement at all. and anything in between. So I may end up with a 65 or 75% permenant disability. In which case I either give up Bow hunting in Michigan or start hunting in Ohio, Since my family traditionally has a large bow camp every October, going out of State is low on the list..So if I do fall into that "in-between" catagory I'll probably end up doing what I have done the last two years..Be cheif cook and bottle washer/beer taster in camp..I had hoped that wouldn't happen until I was 80 or so..Only time will tell.

[Trophy Specialist]

BOB@BBT you're making so much sense that I'm glad you didn't sign off from this subject. I agree with you 100%.

[2-BIG]

I don't believe in (THE SKY IS FALLING ) theory, so I would have to disagree with you Bob. ;)

[Lee Gerdermain]

I don't believe in (THE SKY IS FALLING ) theory, so I would have to disagree with you Bob. ;) ...what do you mean by (Bob's) "the sky is falling theory". Kindly elaborate and then, support whatever you disagree with by providing everybody here with some hard numbers that perhaps, have been overlooked.

If it's just a "gut feel" call on your part, then OK..simply need to clarify.

[Bwana]

I don't understand why there has to ba an age requirement. I've read that the crossbow is no more lethal than a modern compound bow. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a crossbow actually has less energy than a Compound bow due to the smaller bolt size (I started archery hunting this year so I really don't know too much). They should just make crossbows legal. I would support you plan Les, but I would support it as a first step towards making them legal for everyone.

[Trophy Specialist]

Actually crossbows are already legal for everyone to use in Michigan --- but just during the firearm deer season. I have shot crossbows many times and have done highly researched articles on comparisons between crossbows and modern compounds. Performance wise, they are pretty even. It is the ease of use that really separates them as distinctly different weapons. With some 700,000 plus firearm deer hunters, if crossbows were legalized for everyone to use in Michigan during the general archery deer seasons, then the bowhunting experiences that we enjoy today would be changed drastically. A large number of gun hunters that currently don’t bowhunt would certainly buy crossbows if they could be used during the general bow season. The main reason why many people enjoy bowhunting so much in the first place is because of a lack of great hunting pressure during that time of the year resulting in quality hunting experiences. If crossbows were legalized, then I’m afraid that quality bowhunting opportunities would be reduced drastically. Also, the pressure on bucks would also escalate and I’m also afraid that our generous season lengths would have to be shortened to avoid over-harvesting of the deer, especially bucks. If you think buck/doe ratios and deer numbers are bad now in some areas, then what do you think would happen to the deer if crossbows were as common as compounds across MI. Allowing handicaped hunters to bowhunt would not significantly affect the quality of the hunt nor deer numbers. If bowhunter number in Michigan drops significantly I might rethink my possition.

[Randy Kidd]

Mike,
Dropping hunters is the rational for this discussion..With the number of us "baby boomers" rapidly reaching the coveted "gomer" (acronym by EMTs and ER Drs means "Get Out of My Emergency Room") status. The ravages of senior citizenship will cause a major drop in hunters, We all know that there is already a drop in hunter participation going on right now, What is going to happen in the next 10 -15 years when this huge segement of our population reaches 65- 70 years old..I don't think we can recruit enough to make up for the shortfall that is going to happen, Without numbers we lose clout, without clout we lose hunting.

Quick facts
The precentage of people in Michigan age 35 and older is 50.90%
The median age in Michigan is 35.5 years old
http://michigan.usl.myareaguide.com/census.html
That is a Whole bunch of codgers in this State...

[skulldugary]

TS,I enjoy reading your posts.Is'nt that the same thing that stick and string hunters said about compund bows and traditonal muzzle loaders said about modern inline m/l's.I mean that,has'nt hunting equipment changed from one method to another since the beginning of time?If cross bows were legalized for everyone I just don't see a lot of hunters changing over.just my opinion...

[Trophy Specialist]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve read, overall hunter numbers have dropped some, but most of those losses have been from small game hunters. Deer hunting numbers in Michigan have been staying about he same in recent years and I read somewhere that bowhunting numbers have actually still been growing. If anybody can show us deer hunter number statistics for Michigan that show those numbers falling off, then I’d like to see them because that would be news to me. It is certainly true that deer hunter numbers have fallen off in parts of Michigan, but at the same time other parts of the state are getting much more hunting pressure these days. It’s just a shift in hunting locations caused my multiple factors. It’s hard to predict what will happen to hunter numbers down the road though.

[Pinefarm]

TS, to answer that, Rod Clute said that we've been losing about 1% of deer hunters each year since the late 1990's and we lost a whopping 4% last year. That's individual's who had regularly bought tags but bought no tags in 2004. Virtually every indication is that we will continue to lose a couple % each year as the boomers age and youth recruitment remains poor. And despite a youth hunt, the forces against youth recruitment are stronger. So essentially, from what I gathered from Rod Clute, we'd better figure out how to kill more deer with 500,000-650,000 deer hunters in the next decade. The sky isn't falling, but it is slowly eroding away and we need to at least address and acknowledge that reality. IMHO

[Lee Gerdermain]

"The main reason why many people enjoy bowhunting so much in the first place is because of a lack of great hunting pressure during that time of the year resulting in quality hunting experiences."

I agree, hunting during October versus November is profoundly more enjoyable (for myself). However, who's ordained anybody as the final interpreter of the concept of what a "quality hunting experience" is, and is not. "Quality" anything is a subjective notion limited solely to the individual(s) experiencing it. It's an intangible. We arrange things in such a way as to keep order, but I fail to see the correlation between the two.

"If crossbows were legalized, then I’m afraid that quality bowhunting opportunities would be reduced drastically."

See above (ditto)

"If you think buck/doe ratios and deer numbers are bad now in some areas, then what do you think would happen to the deer if crossbows were as common as compounds across MI."

Let's go back a few years. In 1970, the traditional bowhunting community howled: "What do you think would happen if we allowed all these new-fangled compound bows to be used in our woods, during our season, shooting our deer? It'll be the end of the world, I'll tell ya!"

Then, just a few years ago the same hysterical cry emerged surrounding the use of elevated stands during the firearm deer season, "What do you think would happen if we allowed all these elevated hunting stands to be used in our woods, during our season, shooting our deer? It'll be the end of the world, I'll tell ya!" The apocalypse didn't happen then, and frankly, won't happen this time either.

"Allowing handicapped hunters to bow hunt would not significantly affect the quality of the hunt nor deer numbers."

Personally, I find the above statement truly offensive and condescending. NOBODY, is "allowing" me, as a handicapped hunter, to hunt, the same way nobody is "allowing" me to used a wheelchair ramp and/or have brail dots on an ATM. Let's make that clear up front and permanent!

To your point however, we need only look to the neighboring State of Ohio. I simply do not witness the gnawing and gnashing of teeth coming out of there regarding crossbows that some purport will occur here. Whatta you say we ask them what they're doing right?


"If bowhunter number in Michigan drops significantly I might rethink my position."

Well, start re-thinking my friend; those days are upon us as we speak. Which, incidentally, was the original basis of this discussion. Specifically: we are rotating out more than we are recruiting in at an astonishing rate.

[Bwana]

Performance wise, they are pretty even. It is the ease of use that really separates them as distinctly different weapons.
So you are saying increased opportunities for hunters is a bad thing?:rolleyes:


With some 700,000 plus firearm deer hunters, if crossbows were legalized for everyone to use in Michigan during the general archery deer seasons, then the bowhunting experiences that we enjoy today would be changed drastically.

A large number of gun hunters that currently don’t bowhunt would certainly buy crossbows if they could be used during the general bow season.
More hunters in the field would be a good thing for the sport TS. It may not suit ones personal need, but it is better for the sport.


The main reason why many people enjoy bowhunting so much in the first place is because of a lack of great hunting pressure during that time of the year resulting in quality hunting experiences. If crossbows were legalized, then I’m afraid that quality bowhunting opportunities would be reduced drastically.
Bow Hunting Opportunities for the individual may be reduced but for hunters as a whole they would increase dramatically. The continuation of hunting as a sport does not depend on the individual; it depends on numbers able to support the "overhead" of maintaining the system.


Also, the pressure on bucks would also escalate and I’m also afraid that our generous season lengths would have to be shortened to avoid over-harvesting of the deer, especially bucks.
So your willing to thwart additional hunting opportunities to maintain long seasons?


If you think buck/doe ratios and deer numbers are bad now in some areas, then what do you think would happen to the deer if crossbows were as common as compounds across MI.
Even with an influx of hunters the effect of Crossbows on the deer population would still pale to the use of Firearms. There are more important things than buck/doe ratios TS.

[Playin' Hooky]

Great thread!

A friend from this site has a crossbow permit, gets to hunt about as often as I do and shares only similar (limited :sad: ) success. He showed me the limitations and benefits of crossbow use and, overall, I wouldn't be opposed to making them legal for ALL archery hunting. The critical issue here is that prospective Xbow hunters be EDUCATED on the limitations of their newly chosen weapon--namely, that it is a little easier to use but no more accurate or deadly at ranges under 50 yards than a modern compound IN THE HANDS OF A SKILLED SHOOTER!

We're all painfully aware of the BOWHUNTERS among us that are irresponsible in their use of "acceptable" archery equipment--people who spend top $$ for the latest equipment and still can't hit what they're aiming at--or believe that because they have it they can somebow escape the laws of physics and take shots that are not ethical. The same problem would exist in Xbow hunting, but would it ruin my experiences afield, I doubt it. Unless, perhaps, irresponsible outdoor writers and retailers were to erroneously preach the "ease, user-friendliness, and tremendous lethal range" of Xbows (the old myth thing again) by which to sell lots of the new equipment, make themselves lots of money, recruit new "archers" to share our seasons--many of whom would eventually drop out after the recognizing the limitations of the weapon and finding out that they have no advantage over the "bowhunters" and don't want to work as hard as they would need to to be successful. This would seem to repeat the cycle of compound archery hunters that got in, found out it wasn't so easy, then got out--did they ruin the hunting experience of "traditional" archers who were there before them (sorry, I'm not old enough to know)?

It is a different weapon--maybe not the one that you or I would currently (or ever) choose to use, but if its capabilities are effectively the same and it can be used RESPONSIBLY by SKILLED hunters who are committed to the ethical use of the resource, I'll share the woods during archery season with the people who choose to hunt with it.

Eric

[cnymph]

I am 63 years old and have not hunted with a bow (only regular firearms season) since I was 40. I am interested in getting out again but am reluctant to invest in a bow because I believe I will not be able to use it within a couple of years. I do not qualify for a handicap permit and hope I never do, but I would invest in a crossbow and use it if I could legally do so. What would be the negative side of allowing me to hunt during bow season (or black powder season) with a crossbow? I was very surprised at the tight restrictions on crossbows when I started gathering information on them. I confess to being puzzled by the severe limitations on their use.

[cnymph]

I am 63 years old and have not hunted with a bow since I was 40 (only fire arms season). I am interested in getting back into bow hunting but am relunctant to invest in a conventional bow because I believe I will not be physically unable to use it in a couple of years. I do not come close to qualifying for the handicap permit and hope I never do, but I would invest in a cross bow if I could legally use one during the Oct bow season. Why deny me the option? The objections remind me of the song in the old musical "Fiddler on the Roof" - Tradition, Tradition, Tradition. Using a tree stand during firearms season has not had a negative impact on the deer herd or the hunting experience in any way I can identify, why would easing restrictions on the cross bow be any different?

[Lee Gerdermain]

I am 63 years old and have not hunted with a bow since I was 40 (only fire arms season). I am interested in getting back into bow hunting but am relunctant to invest in a conventional bow because I believe I will not be physically unable to use it in a couple of years. I do not come close to qualifying for the handicap permit and hope I never do, but I would invest in a cross bow if I could legally use one during the Oct bow season. Why deny me the option? The objections remind me of the song in the old musical "Fiddler on the Roof" - Tradition, Tradition, Tradition. Using a tree stand during firearms season has not had a negative impact on the deer herd or the hunting experience in any way I can identify, why would easing restrictions on the cross bow be any different? Over 50 and not 80% disabled.

You have 3 options:



Wait 2 years and then move to Wisconsin (they allow anybody 65 and over to hunt with a crossbow)


Cut off your left hand (bad option)


Bring the application to your doctor/therapist and let him/her decide if you qualify. Here's the link for the application. Print it off and get it done.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/crossbowapplication_41526_7.pdf

[Adam Waszak]

I am not fot crossbows fo rpeople who want to hunt during archery season but do not want to use a bow; however, if someone is physically incapable of bowhunting due to aging, back problems, neck injury etc etc by all means give em a crossbow permit. I am not for making non hunters out of once were hunters because they can't pull a bow but for the rest of people that can pull a bow, pick one up and lets go hunting.

BOB@BBT- do you know how many of the 1% of hunters we lose a year are due to death? Just wondered with an aging hunter population.

AW

[kbotta]

And yet one more use for Cross Bows. Felons. Felons can use crossbows during the firearms season.

After moving here to Georgia this year, and finding out they legalized crossbows here, and in Alabama, I thought great:rolleyes: there goes the neighborhood. But you know what? I still found plenty of "elbow room", albeit after opening day. I own a crossbow, and didn't use it but once this year, just cause it was cold out. It was a nice OPTION to have. We have less hunters here, and this helps get more people into the woods, those who don't have a compound and such. It also helps with getting the younger kids involved.....

My .02

Kevin

[SR-Mechead]

I believe that they have to keep it at 75% to 80% handicap before you can get a crossbow. I also think that people are looking for the easy way out. they don't want to take the time and practice anymore. They want to just pick up the crossbow and go kill something. I'm 61 and I shoot a 59 lb Mathews and beleive me when I start to practice in the spring I have to take it down to lower lbs and build back up, but that is call exercise. I also think that if someone is handicap, then they should have every right to use one.

[Adam Waszak]

And yet one more use for Cross Bows. Felons. Felons can use crossbows during the firearms season.
My .02

Kevin


That makes me feel even better, anything to get more felons back in the woods with us :yikes: :dizzy:

AW

[SR-Mechead]

[QUOTE=Adam Waszak]That makes me feel even better, anything to get more felons back in the woods with us :yikes: :dizzy:

At least you would see something.

If they let crossbows in the woods at age 50 then why not Laser sights. Hell my eyes are bad. I hunted with a lot of lady's that only shot a 35lb bow and killed a lot of deer. Now you don't take the 50yd shot ,but at 20yds it's a dead deer. I just think 50 is to young to cry senior. :)

[Lee Gerdermain]

Quote: "If they let crossbows in the woods at age 50 then why not Laser sights. Hell my eyes are bad."

Don't you know that the DNR already fully supports the use of these type devices for the visually impaired: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153--31956--,00.html


Quote: "I hunted with a lot of lady's that only shot a 35lb bow and killed a lot of deer. Now you don't take the 50yd shot ,but at 20yds it's a dead deer.

Perhaps by allowing the "ladies" to use a crossbow, they too can kill deer at 50 yards, just like their male counterparts.


Quote: "I just think 50 is too young to cry senior. :)[/QUOTE]"

The statistics simply do not support this. Hunters start leaving the sport beginning at age 45. And, they don't come back; Once gone, always gone. If we wait for them to reach, say, age 65, before they, to use your phrase "cry senior" they won't be taking you up on your generous offer.

[Luv2hunteup]

Link to WI crossbow recommendation (http://www.wideerhunters.org/articles/NRB%20-%20Final%20Report.doc)

Quote by Lee Gerdermain
Wait 2 years and then move to Wisconsin (they allow anybody 65 and over to hunt with a crossbow)

See the above link, it may be sooner than you think.

[Munsterlndr]

WI crossbow recommendation

Recommendation: Legalize crossbows.


Justification: Making the crossbow a legal archery weapon would simplify existing regulations by eliminating special crossbow permits for disabled hunters and increase consistency with hunters of all ages. Crossbows are currently legal for individuals 65 years of age and older. Legalizing crossbows for all legal hunting ages would increase opportunities for those hunters who currently do not bow hunt perhaps due to some physical limitation which is often related to increasing age. This is especially significant considering that the number of Wisconsin residents between 55-65 years of age grew more than six times faster than the rest of the population from 2000-2003 according to recent census data.

Very Interesting, thanks for the link. It looks like, if approved, it would go into effect for the 2007 deer season. I wonder if the WI Bowhunters Association gave any input on this.
_________________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Lee Gerdermain]

DNR Recommendation: Legalize crossbows.

Justification: Making the crossbow a legal archery weapon would simplify existing regulations by eliminating special crossbow permits for disabled hunters and increase consistency with hunters of all ages. Crossbows are currently legal for individuals 65 years of age and older. Legalizing crossbows for all legal hunting ages would increase opportunities for those hunters who currently do not bow hunt perhaps due to some physical limitation which is often related to increasing age.


This is especially significant considering that the number of Wisconsin residents between 55-65 years of age grew more than six times faster than the rest of the population from 2000-2003 according to recent census data.

[SR-Mechead]

[QUOTE=Lee Gerdermain]Quote: "If they let crossbows in the woods at age 50 then why not Laser sights. Hell my eyes are bad.

[b]The statistics simply do not support this. Hunters start leaving the sport beginning at age 45. And, they don't come back; Once gone, always gone. If we wait for them to reach, say, age 65, before they, to use your phrase "cry senior" they won't be taking you up on your generous offer.

Lee you made some good points ,but the people that I hunt with every year,and have been doing this since 1972 are from 36 to 81years young. Most of us are 60 and over.We bring the young pups along to drag the deer :lol: The number in the group is between 17 and 20. We get together every year the 1st week of Nov. Lee there are no cross bows in our group yet. I hope to see the 1st one this year because we have one hunter who is 71 starting to have shoulder problems. Now maybe you can see why I wrote what I did. FYI the 81 year old shot a nice Doe last year.

Lee I don,t care one way or the other if someone uses a crossbow or not. Hell last year I had what they call a frozen shoulder. Maybe some day I will be using one.

[Lee Gerdermain]

In the December issue of Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine there is a great article by Bob Zaiglin titled, "Recruit or Die". If someone has a way to post the entire article electronically, that would be great. Better yet, subscribe to the mag. It's a great periodical. Heer's an excerpt:


Although hunting remains popular, as baby boomers pass on, Texas alone will realize a loss of 10,000 to 20,000 hunters annually. Texas hunters are aging, According to the 2003 report, "Preserving Texas Hhunting Heritage", the average age of a hunter is 41, while the average age of all Texans is 33. The number of hunters is expected to drop by 200,000 over the next decade because young people are not taking up hunting.

The study also said Texas sold 1 million hunting licenses in 2003--the same number it sold in 1970. However, the population of Texax has doubled since 1970, so the percentage of Texans that hunt has declined to less than 6 percent.

The percentage of Texas licence holders that actually go hunting declined 10% between 1985 and 1998. Only 7% of Texan hunters are female although 51% of the population is female....

What do these statistics mean for the future of hunting? Hardest hit will be the small, rural communities that accomodate hunters. Texas will lose $3.6 BILLION and approximately 32,000 hunting related jobs.

If I were to write an article thematically consistant to this I would title it:
"Recruit, Retain or Die!"

[SR-Mechead]

Lee how much state land do they have in Texas. Just a question? I hunted in Texas and it seemed that everyone owned 10.000 to 20.000 acres. The cost to hunt the ranches would make a lot of hunters go else where. I hunted a ranch that was 20.000 acres and I'm just glad I was a guest of a major trucking company. BIG BUCKS.
Bob

[Lee Gerdermain]

My general understanding is that in Texas, there is a higher propensity of private land than public. Many subscibe to a lease in rder to hunt.


The parellel here is that Texas, like Michigan, is losing hunters at a rate greater than they are bringing them in. One sub-section of that universe is bowhunters., In Michigan, there are about 375,000 of them. By allowing approximately 30% of that 375,000 , (those age 50 or greater and at a time when they are exiting the sport) to hunt with a crossbow you will probably stunt that exodus by at least 50%, or stated otherwise, you've kept 65,000 in the ranks, not to mention the incremental portion that you will recruit in the sport merely on its own, maybe 5000 -10,000 newly "found" hunters age 50 and over.

And finally, there are the "gun only" hunters that may now take up the sport. This universe is 850,000 with 30% being over 50, or 255,000. I figure about 25% of these folks would also come in, or 65,000. This same group would probably not drop one sport in liew of the other (gun versus bow) but rather now participate in both, AND spending twice as much as they did before.

For the life of me, I cannot see any down side to this arguement.

[SR-Mechead]

I'm not going to get into a arguement with you. Lee I use to shoot in a lot of outdoor shoots where we had targets out at 80 yds. Now I will not take a shot over 30 yds with my bow never had never will. If I can use a crossbow then watch out 50yds may become a gimme. I wouldn't fight it ,but I think you may here from some gun hunters.

[Adam Waszak]

I feel as though the crossbow is an efficient weopon for the disabled and the disabled onl unless you want it during firearm season. The argument that we are losing hunter numbers is not a good one to implement full blown crossbow useage across the board. The archery season should be set for bow and arrow use unless physically disabled. To increase hunter numbers you need to lower the hunting age first and that wouls be a huge step towards promoting hunting.

AW

[huntingfool43]

Now I will not take a shot over 30 yds with my bow never had never will. If I can use a crossbow then watch out 50yds may become a gimme. I wouldn't fight it ,but I think you may here from some gun hunters.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of crossbows. A modern compound is more lethal at greater distance than a crossbow, look at the difference in arrow length. The bolt is to short to store enough kenetic energy, compare that to a 30 inch arrow. Untill this type of thinking is changed crossbows will never be leagle and maybe shouldn't be if people think they can shoot 35+ yards with them. I use 1 pin from point blank out to 30 yards and after that the arrow drops like a rock. Leaglizing crossbows will do no more harm than the compoud did when it was introduced.

[Adam Waszak]

My objection has really nothing to do with th eyardage it is the fact that you have the "archery equipment" at full draw at all times. This is th emost crucial part of bowhunting in my mind- pulling the bow without spooking them, being able to place a pin on them as they walk in from 200 yards is where I have the ploblem cause bowhunters have to wait till they get to range and then draw which is easy to spook them then.

AW

[jimmyboy]

Adam - I've rarely found it a problem to stand,reach for my bow,and draw while the buck's attention was distracted or vision blocked,while so doing.It's usually a matter of timing and experience to do so w/o attracting his attention. For myself,holding at full draw for any length of time is more of a problem. I just fail to see any valid reason for disallowing crossbows at any age or physical ability or lack thereof. Not that I own one or plan too.

[SR-Mechead]

This is one of the biggest misconceptions of crossbows. A modern compound is more lethal at greater distance than a crossbow, look at the difference in arrow length. The bolt is to short to store enough kenetic energy, compare that to a 30 inch arrow. Untill this type of thinking is changed crossbows will never be leagle and maybe shouldn't be if people think they can shoot 35+ yards with them. I use 1 pin from point blank out to 30 yards and after that the arrow drops like a rock. Leaglizing crossbows will do no more harm than the compoud did when it was introduced.

I also shoot with one pin from 15 to 30 yds.I also have and overdraw with a 26 inch arrow I go for speed not punching power. Now put a scrope on a crossbow and sight it in at 40 to 50 yds. I don't care if they let people use the crossbow, but why do we want to change the law when it is not broken. I think the fun is reaching for your bow and finally out smarting them. I mean they out smart me more than I do them.

[Adam Waszak]

It certainly isn't broken now so agree with you leave it the way it is ;)

[Lee Gerdermain]

It certainly isn't broken now so agree with you leave it the way it is ;)
I have refrained from using that word, broken) to describe the situation we are in right now.

Accordingly...

....If you believe that losing several hundred thousand hunters per-year as something not being broken, errrrr, OK.

...If you believe that our recruiting into the sport at a rate of only 1 new hunter than the 2 we rotate out as something not being broken, errrr, OK.

...If you believe that only those that have a profound physical handicap as being the only people to be allowed to participate in this sport using a crossbow as something not being broken, errrr, OK.

Look, the "status quo" is broken. There are some gigantic problems facing us and the only response that I have been getting so far has essentially been, "I'm not one of those people you describe, Lee".

Just wait, you will be eventually; Not handicapped (pray, God) but a part of the bowhunting community that simply "fades away".

"Not broken"...prove me otherwise with something more than what I've heard so far, that is akin to: "I don't want those guys hunting my deer, in my woods, during my season."

We must, re-think the status quo!

[SR-Mechead]

Lee what makes you think that letting someone use a crossbow is the answer. How about seeing deer. You read this forum How many people have said the deer numbers are down. Do I like to go out in the woods and look at trees all the time. Do I like to bring my Grand kids and see nothing . I have shot many of deer in my 47 years of hunting and I don't care if I ever shoot another, but I sure like to watch them. Crossbows may have a place and it may bring a few back into hunting, but I don't think that they are the only answer. They gave out 14,000 doe permits private land only. Why not give out 7,000 private 7,000 state land. And yes we all get old and fade away at a certain time. Myself I hope I can hunt for many years to come, but what will stop me is not seeing deer. It will not be because I cannot use a crossbow.

[Trophy Specialist]

I tend to agree with SR-Mechead on some of his points. It is my opinion that the recent drop in Michigan's deer hunter numbers is due in the most part to a reduction in the deer herd and poorer hunting as a result. It doesn't take too many deer-less hunts to make some hunters thow in the towel. The week economy is another factor contributing to shrinking deer hunter numbers and Michigan has one of the worst state economys in the country. Don't get me wrong, I do think that may be loosing a very small percentage of hunters to attrition anually, but there are other factors at work that are taking away lots more.

[Adam Waszak]

If you want ot increase hunter numbers then drop the minimumage req for it to start. Then we will see how many we can pick up. Remember people are aging the baby boomers are aging and that is a large segment of the hunting population right now. People are also having less children and there are more activities for their children to take part in than ever before. The best time to get a kid hooked on hunting is between 6 and 12 according to research from the Nat wild turkey fed. We don't even let the kids here take part in the hunting until age 12 when the odds are against us. Organize some youth small game hunts or programs to get kids into the sport or take a few kids out hunting with you to help pass it on that is how we will survive.

Otherwise with your thinking of the easier crossbow will bring em back, why not hand grenades, snares, land mines, fully auto weopons etc they will get some people to try to kill a deer to if it is legal but I don't think we should go there either. If you want the crossbow to be legal I understand but lets not say we want it to save hunter numbers cause that is not the cure.

AW

[Tom (mich)]

One thing that's readily apparent is that opinions on this issue won't be changed via this debate. I'd be 100% in favor of loosening the crossbow provisions for those no longer physically able to draw a bow. I'd favor it simply because it's the right thing to do. That being said, the foundation of the original argument - that we should allow more liberal use of the crossbow to combat declining hunter numbers - is so absurd that's it's funny. Does anyone really believe that the "addition" of a new weapon to the mix would increase hunter numbers? A diehard archer who can no longer draw a bow is simply going to gun or muzzle hunt, not leave the sport altogether.

[Adam Waszak]

One thing that's readily apparent is that opinions on this issue won't be changed via this debate. I'd be 100% in favor of loosening the crossbow provisions for those no longer physically able to draw a bow. I'd favor it simply because it's the right thing to do. That being said, the foundation of the original argument - that we should allow more liberal use of the crossbow to combat declining hunter numbers - is so absurd that's it's funny. Does anyone really believe that the "addition" of a new weapon to the mix would increase hunter numbers? A diehard archer who can no longer draw a bow is simply going to gun or muzzle hunt, not leave the sport altogether.


BINGO! we have a winner.

AW

[Lee Gerdermain]

All excellent and valid points.

Even though I hunt with a crossbow, frankly its more important for me to simply "see" deer. For that reason, I manage my property intensely for that sole purpose by planting year round food plots and doing other things beyond just baiting during the season. As stated, if it were not for the crossbow, archery hunting would not be on my radar screen whatsoever. That said, l am in not in any lustful zeal to take a deer. To tell you the truth, I hate the taste of venison and give any deer that I take (which are few) to my brother and his 4 boys, who love the stuff.

I do not purport that allowing the use of crossbows for anybody over the age of 50 as the sole answer. Far from it. It is merely "a" answer insofar that it can retain such a large section of the 375,000 bow hunter world, that will be seeing a 5-10% drop in its ranks every year as the baby boomers "fade away" (and, we let them).

Right now, 15,000 people have a handicapped permit to hunt game with a crossbow in this state. And there does not appear to be any catastrophic impact on the environment, the deer hard or even the price of coffee in Brazil, at least that I am aware of. What I propose here will not "recruit" so much as it will "retain", by my estimate, about 50,000-100,000 hunters within our ranks. That is a huge chunk-o-people!

And finally, while a bit off-topic, one important and profound point about bringing new hunters into this sport that I would like to share with everyone here. It is my immutable position that the number one reason for the decline in new hunters (age 6-16) being recruited towards hunting is the phenomenal and perhaps tragic rise of the single-parent household in the United States over the last 50 years. Youth hunts, first-cousins, uncles, pals and neighbors don’t endear a youth towards hunting. DADS DO!!

Think about it!!

(Uh oh, I think I just started a whole new thread)

[Adam Waszak]

Last point is an excellent one

AW

[SR-Mechead]

Lee I agree with your last point 100%. I think in Texas kids can start to hunt at age 9 and maybe in other states sooner than that. The kids want to be with there dads, uncles, and even Grandpas. I use to teach archery for 10 years and I had kids that would come in and would not even know how to hold a bow,After a few weeks they would beable to hit the bale and sometimes the target at 20yds. That,s what it's all about. If we can get a kid in the woods and get him or her interested in hunting or fishing then we all come out winners. This thread has been a fun debate.

[jimmyboy]

Lee,I don't completely agree with your last point. My dad never so much as set a foot in the woods and I still got into hunting at a early age. He didn't object,just not his thing.I was a self-starter(city kid) inclined by my outdoor adventures with the boy scouts.Everyone can help attract kids to the outdoor persuits we all enjoy,not just dads,tho they can strongly encourage it best.Adopting a lower legal age would be good starting point,similar to many other states. And a school target archery class could be a possible way to encourage youth. Back to Xbows,why don't we hear Ohioans bemoaning their use? Are they trying to restrict them? I don't THINK so!

[Lee Gerdermain]

One thing that's readily apparent is that opinions on this issue won't be changed via this debate. I'd be 100% in favor of loosening the crossbow provisions for those no longer physically able to draw a bow. I'd favor it simply because it's the right thing to do.

Let me see if I got this right because I think what we're saying the same thing. What then is your definition of those "no longer able to pull a bow"? Is it the 80% permanent disability criteria current in force, or something less stringent?. If the latter, we, sir, are in violent agreement!! My supposition is that the majority of those who are no longer able to draw a bow emerge from the 45 year old and greater community.


That being said, the foundation of the original argument - that we should allow more liberal use of the crossbow to combat declining hunter numbers - is so absurd that's it's funny. Does anyone really believe that the "addition" of a new weapon to the mix would increase hunter numbers?

You haven't been listening...the operative word is not is not "increase", but rather "retain". Huge difference. Huge.


A diehard archer who can no longer draw a bow is simply going to gun or muzzle hunt, not leave the sport altogether.

Sorry, generalizations not allowed! I have supported my position with hard facts and numbers throughout. You have to support a statement like statement that with the same.
Here's the waterfall to help get you started:




850,000 firemarm deer hunters in Michigan
375,000 are bowhunters
Some gunhunters are not bowhunters (?)
Some bowhunters are also gun hunters (?)
Some bowhunters are not gun hunters (?)
When do bowhunters become just gun hunters?
When do bowhunters who are not gun hunters leave the sport?
Will gunhunters age 50 + who are not currently bowhunters become a bowhunter as a result of the general availability of a crossbow?

[FixedBlade]

There is no debate. A crossbow should be allowed during the archery season. It is simply another tool for tagging an animal.

[SR-Mechead]

There is no debate. A crossbow should be allowed during the archery season. It is simply another tool for tagging an animal.

It is for those who need one.

[Brian S]

Lee, I agree with your position 100%

Need numbers? Here's one.

I got one die-hard bowhunting partner. We picked out our bows together over 25 years ago and have been hunting together ever since. He'll be 73 this year. No disabilities, but its plain to see that he just doesn't have the strength or endurance to practice and maintain his proficiency with a bow. Because of this, the past bow season was probably his last.

Its simple, the current rules need to be changed so that older hunters without disabilities can get a crossbow permit.

How can this be wrong?

[Trophy Specialist]

850,000 firemarm deer hunters in Michigan
375,000 are bowhunters
Some gunhunters are not bowhunters (?)
Some bowhunters are also gun hunters (?)
Some bowhunters are not gun hunters (?)
When do bowhunters become just gun hunters?
When do bowhunters who are not gun hunters leave the sport?
Will gunhunters age 50 + who are not currently bowhunters become a bowhunter as a result of the general availability of a crossbow?

Where did you get those numbers from? They don't jive at all with what the DNR has reported.

From what I just looked up, according the DNR, we had an estimated 700,000 hunters participate in the 2004 firearm deer season. http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10371_10402-106465--M_2004_12,00.html

I also looked up the DNR's stats for 2002 and 2003 at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deer_03harvest_93353_7.pdf.
2003 is the most current data available as 2004 is not available yet. The DNR reported that we had 740,529 total deer hunters in all seasons combined during 2002. In 2003, we had 743,471, which is up .4 percent from the previous year. Deer hunter numbers actually increased folks between 2002 and 2003. In 2003, there were 683,951 firearm deer hunters. If the DNR's post season estimate is correct at 700,000 firearm deer hunters during 2004, then that equates to an increase of over 2% from 2003. That tells me two things: Attrition is not affecting things yet and don't believe everything that you hear from DNR staff as they are not always on the up and up. Also, the stats say that there were 314,000 people that bowhunted in Michigan during 2003, and acoding to what I read, bowhunter numbers have remained either constant or on the increase in recent years.

Keep in mind that the DNR is going to jack up hunting and fishing license fees for 2005 and what better way to gain favor for the increase than to shout from the roof top that the sky is falling.

Even though hunter numbers in Michigan are growing, I still favor simplifying the handicapped crossbow laws as I stated in a previous post.

[Thunderhead]

It is my immutable position that the number one reason for the decline in new hunters (age 6-16) being recruited towards hunting is the phenomenal and perhaps tragic rise of the single-parent household in the United States over the last 50 years. Youth hunts, first-cousins, uncles, pals and neighbors don’t endear a youth towards hunting. DADS DO!! [/b]





AMEN Brother.

[SR-Mechead]

Lee, I agree with your position 100%

. He'll be 73 this year. No disabilities, but its plain to see that he just doesn't have the strength or endurance to practice and maintain his proficiency with a bow. Because of this, the past bow season was probably his last.

Its simple, the current rules need to be changed so that older hunters without disabilities can get a crossbow permit.

How can this be wrong?


Brian maybe there has to be and age, I think that there is a place for a crossbow. I to have a friend who is 75 and I would like him to stay hunting Should the age be 62 unless you have a disability. I don't know. I don't think that it should be 12. Wisconsin has and age of 65

[Trophy Specialist]

Brian maybe there has to be and age,
How about age 59 1/2. That's when we can start spending our retirement savings without penalty, so it would be perfect timming to go out and buy a new crossbow.

[Lee Gerdermain]

The numbers were not posted as exact but rather an illustration of the methodolgy one needs to take in order to measure statistically reliable results.

One only needs to read the Department of Interior, Department of Fish and Wildlife "2001 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife Recreation" to determine if the "sky is falling".

But let's skip the "numbers justification" approach for the moment. I'm delighted that you agree that we should become less stringent in our current application of who should be permitted to use a crossbow to hunt game.

[Tom (mich)]

Sorry, generalizations not allowed! I have supported my position with hard facts and numbers throughout. You have to support a statement like statement that with the same.
Here's the waterfall to help get you started:




850,000 firemarm deer hunters in Michigan
375,000 are bowhunters
Some gunhunters are not bowhunters (?)
Some bowhunters are also gun hunters (?)
Some bowhunters are not gun hunters (?)
When do bowhunters become just gun hunters?
When do bowhunters who are not gun hunters leave the sport?
Will gunhunters age 50 + who are not currently bowhunters become a bowhunter as a result of the general availability of a crossbow?



We are saying the same thing - crossbow restrictions should be liberalized to allow physically limited bowhunters the right to use a crossbow during archery season.

The area where we differ is that somehow doing the above will "retain" (your word) hunters from leaving the ranks. There are many compelling reasons to liberalize the crossbow reg's, but retaining hunters simply ain't one of them. You accuse me of generalizations, and throw out a bunch of data, but none of your numbers indicate that hunters are leaving the ranks because of disability.

[SR-Mechead]

How about age 59 1/2. That's when we can start spending our retirement savings without penalty, so it would be perfect timming to go out and buy a new crossbow.


Sounds like a perfect age to me. I will be 62 in May and retired, but no crossbow yet. I enjoy the way I hunt now. :)

[farmlegend]

To me, one of the more powerful remarks in this whole thread was one made by Lee early on. It is an important business maxim, which is frequently violated, to the detriment of the business enterprise. That is, the best prospect you've got is the customer you already have. It is easier to KEEP a good customer than it is to find a new one. Aging hunters are important members of the hunting fraternity, and it would be a real shame to lose some of them for lack of such a simple remedy as making it easier for older hunters to qualify for hunting with a crossbow during the archery seasons.

That being said, I wouldn't open it up for able-bodied youth, however.

[Adam Waszak]

I think a lot more of us agree with what Farmlegend said there than people think. If you can't bowhuntby all means but not just because you want to take up crossbows. I would support the age and or disability restictions but lets not start 12 year olds out with crossbows when they are plenty healthy to bowhunt. Remember why you like bowhunting..........challenge lets not take anymore of that aspect away from the sport unless we have to. Otherwise there will be those who say awe heck open october 1st to rifle and go through December! I better be careful the DNR higher ups may see that and think it is a great idea :lol:
AW

[Lee Gerdermain]

To me, one of the more powerful remarks in this whole thread was one made by Lee early on. It is an important business maxim, which is frequently violated, to the detriment of the business enterprise. That is, the best prospect you've got is the customer you already have. It is easier to KEEP a good customer than it is to find a new one. Aging hunters are important members of the hunting fraternity, and it would be a real shame to lose some of them for lack of such a simple remedy as making it easier for older hunters to qualify for hunting with a crossbow during the archery seasons.

That being said, I wouldn't open it up for able-bodied youth, however. There are many rock solid reasons to make this happen. That said, I agree that it should not open it up for able-bodied youth. Decribing myself herein, I meet your descrption in only one of the three criteria: I am "bodied"! The other two do not apply. :dizzy:

[Playin' Hooky]

My understanding is that the only real ADVANTAGE to hunting with a crossbow is that the pre-drawn bow remains drawn until you pull the trigger.

Do you have to raise it discreetly to get the animal in your sight picture as you would a compound? (you may need a steady rest)

Would you have spent the time sighting in with a pin sight (?) or bow scope as you would a compound? (Practice, practice, practice)

Would you have to hold its weight-forward frame steady until the deer stepped into a shooting lane--battling the same gravity and nerves that a compound shooter does?

The only advantage--you don't have to hold 20-35% of the original draw weight.

IS THAT SUCH AN ENORMOUS ADVANTAGE?

Crossbows may look like guns, but they shoot like BOWS!

How many of you started hunting with traditional/recurve gear and were called cheaters when you went to compounds--you were/are in the opinion of a traditional/recurve archer. Do you believe it? Why the hang-up on crossbows?

Practice, ethics, responsibility make a hunter. Not the tool they use. There are too many compound users that exceed their limits and waste game but since they use "acceptable" gear....

[Lee Gerdermain]

Here's an out-take from a recent article from a PA newspaper:

Crossbow manufacturers, which have been pushing state game agencies to loosen restrictions, say their limited experience suggests that crossbows interest four groups of people besides the disabled: (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Experienced sportsmen who lack the time to become or remain proficient with a bow and arrow. Many are gun hunters seeking a new challenge or better weather. Others are longtime bow hunters who no longer have the necessary practice time.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Older bow hunters, who are having difficulty drawing and holding a traditional bow.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Women, who are already one of the fastest-growing hunting demographics but typically have less strength than men and often less time.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Children and teens, who are drawn to crossbows as their first hunting implement because they are easier to learn and to hold.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
Of these, as stated, I disagree with the "children and teens" part. This sort of sums up every group that it makes sense to open up crossbow hunting to.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

[jimmyboy]

Credible points,Playin' Hooky. I started out in the 60s with a stick n' string bear grizzly,shooting herter fiberglas shafts w/ bear razor points,off the shelf(of the bow) w/1 pin sight taped to the riser.Graduated to a newfangled darton 2 wheeler in '75(just a recurve w/the tips cut off and 2 wheel assys hung on the ends).Then on to all the normal progression of models to follow.And I'm not against allowing Xbows for all - for all the reasons you have listed.Does anyone think that the progression of the compound bow has reached it's limits yet? I doubt so.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Michigan House "HB 4875", introduced by District Rep. Randy Richardville in 2003. This bill provided that residents of the State of Michigan, age 65 or older, be permitted to take game with a crossbow during any/all legal, established seasons, irrespective of any other criteria (handicap and/or otherwise).

The record shows that amongst others, those opposed to the approval of this law (then) was the MDNR and the MUCC.



Where does this piece of legistaltion reside today?


What was/is the basis of opposition to this piece of legislation put forth by the DNR and MUCC?
Lee Gerdermain

[cnymph]

Les,
I understand that the legislation you cite (or a bill similar to it) was to be introduced again this month - at least that is the word I got from Rep Bill Huizenga's staff. Contact your Representative for current info. You can easily find the contact information at www.michigan.gov.

I have no idea what the MDNR or the MUCC would use as the basis for opposing the idea. I agree with the points you make here; there have been no substantive points made in opposition. I was glad to hear of the Wisconsin proposal since that could lend some political weight to the argument.

[jimmyboy]

For questions on MUCC policy issues try: muccpolicy@mucc.org or 1-800-777-6720

[Tom (mich)]

Here's an out-take from a recent article from a PA newspaper:

Crossbow manufacturers, which have been pushing state game agencies to loosen restrictions, say their limited experience suggests that crossbows interest four groups of people besides the disabled: (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Experienced sportsmen who lack the time to become or remain proficient with a bow and arrow. Many are gun hunters seeking a new challenge or better weather. Others are longtime bow hunters who no longer have the necessary practice time.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Older bow hunters, who are having difficulty drawing and holding a traditional bow.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Women, who are already one of the fastest-growing hunting demographics but typically have less strength than men and often less time.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)

Children and teens, who are drawn to crossbows as their first hunting implement because they are easier to learn and to hold.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)
Of these, as stated, I disagree with the "children and teens" part. This sort of sums up every group that it makes sense to open up crossbow hunting to.

(http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/9932629.htm?)


The following were ID'd as reasons to allow crossbow use during (presumably) archery season:

1. "Older bow hunters, who are having difficulty drawing and holding a traditional bow" Of course - that's what we seem to all agree upon.

2. "Women, who are already one of the fastest-growing hunting demographics but typically have less strength than men and often less time." Umm - I'll vote no. Deer can be effectively harvested with a draw weight down to 35-40 pounds. Less time?? If you can't practice, then you can't hunt - period.

3. "Children and teens, who are drawn to crossbows as their first hunting implement because they are easier to learn and to hold." No again - "easy" shouldn't play a factor. You want easy, then hunt with a gun or use your crossbow during gun season.

4. "Experienced sportsmen who lack the time to become or remain proficient with a bow and arrow." You've got to be freakin' kidding me!!

[Trophy Specialist]

What was/is the basis of opposition to this piece of legislation put forth by the DNR and MUCC?
MUCC agrees with just about everything the DNR says or does these days. They seem to have become just another mouthpeice for the DNR.

[skulldugary]

Good thread,but I don't see what all of the hoopla is all about,if x bows were legal for the last 25 years we would'nt be haveing this conversation and those that support thier use or use them would not be chastised and looked down upon.It seems that "IF" crossbows were so deadly maybe we would'nt hear of so many wounded deer on this site every year,just look at the White tail section during hunting season at all of the animals that have been pused, if you hunt long enough it may happen.Makes you wonder if a different system might help dampen some of this.Hope I did'nt offend anyone.

[SR-Mechead]

[QUOTE=skulldugary].It seems that "IF" crossbows were so deadly maybe we would'nt hear of so many wounded deer on this site every year,just look at the White tail section during hunting season at all of the animals that have been pused, if you hunt long enough it may happen.]

If people would get off there butt and practice you might not see a lot of wounded deer. I used to to work at a archery shop in GR and what would piss me off is the day before season someone would come in and buy a bow and say there going hunting. Then a week or later come back and brag that they hit one but didn't find it. It's called practice. Crossbow, rifle, stick bow, shot gun or whatever. Practice is what makes a true hunter. Not a hunter want a bee. If the cross bow is the answer then bring it on. The poachers will love it out the car window and quiet. Just listen for the thud.

[cnymph]

The need to practice before heading out to hunt applies to every weapon available! It is only the amount of time required that varies. Good point SR-Mechead! Every hunter needs to be proficient and ethical. Poachers (who are already operating illegally) are likely going to use whatever weapon they deem best for them. If that is the crossbow I expect they are already using it.

[Playin' Hooky]

A point well made, SR-M. I've never seen a label on a compound (or crossbow) that says "no practice required"!

We have agreement, then?

Lee:

Scenario--crossbows are legalized, my son/daughter (does it matter) becomes old enough to begin hunting. We purchase a model that is built for his/her size, he/she practices with it to the point where I am comfortable that he/she can hit what he/she is aiming at. I hunt with him/he to "call the shot"--being sure that he/she behaves ethically considering the limitations of the equipment.

What is the difference between this scenario and a compound bow? Is it any less challenging/demanding to achieve proficiency with this different tool?

Why, then, would we restrict access for beginning hunters? Isn't that discriminatory not only to them but to the equipment--perpetuating the myth that a crossbow is "easier" and they must somehow "pay their dues" in the compound ranks for "X" # of years before being allowed to use them? Makes no sense to me. If you had NEVER shot a bow before your crossbow, would it have been easier to learn? (I don't know that I could answer that, it's been quite a few years.)

How many of us were REQUIRED to use traditional/recurve bows when we started hunting so that we learned the "hard way" and then got a break when we switched to a compound? I started hunting with a compound, although I shot recurves as a youngster. I got a compound because they were SUPPOSED to be easier to shoot, greater range, etc. EASIER to HOLD, yes. Easier to shoot? I'd disagree. Different, YES! The equipment change brings an entirely new set of variables that have to be considered, controlled, adapted to, for successful use. PRACTICE REQUIRED!!

The worst advertising slogan begins with "SO easy a..." and its been used for all sorts of hunting products.

Poachers are/will use them--but they'll still need to practice! I'd rather have them toting a crossbow than a rifle--the effective range doesn't begin to compare.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Good questions. Here's a quote from Crossbow Federation Newsletter:

"I can say without hesitation that crossbow hunting opportunity in Ohio has created more vertical bow hunters than those who claim to be the gurus of Ohio bowhunting. The crossbow – like the Zebco 33 in fishing – is something a youth can use with little physical strength, but with close adult supervision. Youth are introduced to hunting before being spirited away to other activities, by their bowhunting mentors, long before they are physically capable of handling a hunting weight vertical bow. Don’t give me the 30-35 pound compound, suction cup arrow drill either – the last thing I want to do is introduce someone to bowhunting through losing their first several deer."

As I stated in my original post, I don't believe that Michigan is ready for an accross-the- board use of crossbows during the archery season. But what this author says (above) certainly makes sense!!!

My efforts here have been to give awareness to and consideration for the taking game with a crossbow by any individual age 50 years or older, irrepesctive of physical handicapp or otherwise (retention).

Short answer: Yes, it could be effective in recruitment tool.


p.s. I have some VERY interesting statistics on crossbow hunting in OHIO that I will post later. Right now, it's off to the daughter's volleyball game!

[SR-Mechead]

I quess I should not have said as much as I did about the crossbow, because many years ago when I was president of Chippewa Archery club. I stood in front of a group of people who did not want hunters to use releases . I said if a hunter can make a clean kill with a release then he should use the release and if fingers work better he should use his fingers. I think we have to respect the animal that we are hunting. If a crossbow will make a clean kill then so be it. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[cnymph]

I quote from an email response to my inquiry to MUCC written by Jason Dinsmore, MUCC Policy Specialist.
"MUCC is supportive of the curent regulations (on crossbows).
The concern isn't necessarily with the method of take, it comes down to allocation of resources. The allowance of crossbows, in many peoples opinions, could increase the harvest during the archery season causing shorter (or otherwise adjusted) seasons to compensate for an increased take. Currently, the hunters which we represent are weary (sic) of this and, therefore, could not approve of the use of crossbows during archery season."
Thanks to jimmeyboy for the address that allowed me to contact MUCC. Now we need to determine the concept upon which the DNR bases its opposition. Anyone know where to go for that info?

[2-BIG]

Tonight on Fred Trost's Practical Sportsman he had a 12 year old from Tecumseh named Taylor Birchfield. Taylor went to Colorado with his dad on an elk hunt. Taylor shot a big bull elk with his 43# Bear Badger recurve! No excuses about his age, size, strength, etc...! He just said he practiced all summer long. Thats bowhunting! If you need a handicap crossbow permit I'm all for it but if you think that you want to shoot a crossbow just to hunt the archery only season then do as the rest of us do. Shoot a BOW! ;)

[cnymph]

Congratulations to Taylor! I admire his pluck and presistence. However, some of us will not be able to do that even with an equal measure of pluck and persistence - nor will we qualify as 80% handicapped. Please note the crossBOW is a "BOW." Same principle of propulsion as that used by the recurve or compound. Also about the same energy output and range. The only difference is how it is held by the hunter. I once hunted with a recurve; have never hunted with a compound (have shot them). I am no less manly or ethical now than I was using the recurve - just significantly older.

[Munsterlndr]

FYI, There is currently a poll concerning legalizing crossbows going on the archery forum.

______________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Lee Gerdermain]

I quote from an email response to my inquiry to MUCC written by Jason Dinsmore, MUCC Policy Specialist.

"MUCC is supportive of the current regulations (on crossbows).
The concern isn't necessarily with the method of take, it comes down to allocation of resources. The allowance of crossbows, in many peoples opinions, could increase the harvest during the archery season causing shorter (or otherwise adjusted) seasons to compensate for an increased take. Currently, the hunters which we represent are weary (sic) of this and, therefore, could not approve of the use of crossbows during archery season."
"MUCC is supportive of the current regulations (on crossbows).
Defined: "We kind of like things the way they are"

"The concern isn't necessarily with the method of take"
Defined: "We don’t hate crossbows or even crossbow hunting"

"it comes down to allocation of resources".
Defined: "how do we slice up the pie"

"The allowance of crossbows, in many peoples opinions, could increase the harvest during the archery season causing shorter (or otherwise adjusted) seasons to compensate for an increased take"
Defined: "We're not 100% sure, but this might bring about change"

"Currently, the hunters which we represent are weary (sic) of this
Defined: "We're mildly concerned, but haven't said yes or no to this issue"

"and, therefore, could not approve of the use of crossbows during archery season."
Defined: "So, we'll opt on the 'no" side"


Granted , MUCC's response here was probably written in the context of responding to allowing any person to take game with a crossbow during the general archery season, irrespective of disability or otherwise. My position is not anywhere akin to that. Rather, I have illustrated throughout is, that a segment of bow hunters are leaving and/or will soon leave the sport in great numbers. Period!

Look, people forget that this "sport" is still in its infancy. As you know, the phenomenal growth herein did not occur until the advent of the compound bow in the late 1960's and early 1970's (perhaps to the chagrin of the traditional bowhumting community). Many of the people who "jumped in" were/are part of America's ' "baby boomer" generation (born 1945-65). This segment of the population is now reaching middle age and perhaps, retirement age.

Indicators show that somewhere around the age of 50, people start to abandon the sport of bow hunting in alarming numbers. This is not a new phenomenon, but the sheer numbers are or will be). Some go on to firearm hunting exclusively (I include muzzle loading guns in this category) but many simply "fade away". They are deprived of this sport simply because they lack the physical dexterity that they once had as younger person in order to stay proficient at this activity and thereafter, do not meet the stringent criteria in order to obtain a "handicapped permit" (I hate that word). My assumption is that a large segment of "baby boomers" would continue in the sport if they were allowed to use a crossbow, irrespective of physical limitations or otherwise. Right now, we allow them to "self-select out". And that, in my opinion is wrong, but fixable (and I do not mean allowing people 65 and older to take game with a crossbow).

Now, if as you say, there could be a behavioral, economic and/or environmental impact on things that could alter the status quo in some way, shape or form, by all means, let's objectively examine in it in the context of how I propose it. If it is overwhelmingly proven that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives, let the notion die its own natural death. But to arbitrarily take a position based on a "gut feel” does a disservice to everybody, particularly to the person making it.

Currently, there is an "experimental" season to hunt doves in select Michigan counties. Experimental is simply another word for "test". At the end of the test will be a marking period. After grading, it may continue as is, continue with modifications, or simply end. If after doing initial due diligence with what I propose, I believe that a limited "test" be conducted to measure the results.

LG

[SR-Mechead]

How many people are going to go out and spend $300.to $400. to take a test. The test on the dove hunt every one had a gun. Familys were bigger back in 1945 and 1950. Almost everyone had 3 to 4 kids now it's down to 1 to 2. There will be a drop off because familys are smaller.

[2-BIG]

Lee, where is Oalnad County located? Never heard of it? :confused:

[Lee Gerdermain]

It's west of Creetostanz County and just north of Petnutnor County

[Hawker]

Wow, what a great thread!

My incredibly fit, lean, 58 year-old father had a quintuple bypass in August. He had never shown any heart-related trouble symptoms, but if he had not gone in for a physical, he would probably be dead. At his hospital bed I comforted him, telling him not to worry about being able to hunt come October, since I had a xbow he could use. A few weeks later, to my shock, his physical therapist refused to sign the application! Apparently, getting your chest cracked open like a walnut doesn't qualify as an "injury." Or maybe she didn't think he was "80% disabled" or whatever.

It broke my heart to see his disappointment. He should be able to pull his vert. bow next year, but there isn't always a "next year" people. I thought my father was ageless, was sure he would still be playing softball tournaments and kicking the butts of players twenty years his junior well into his sixties and seventies--was sure he would be one of those guys so many of you seem to brag about who are well past sixty and still pulling 60#. But it isn't that way for most of us, and it may not be for him, either.

My father loves to sit in the dappled sunlight during the long days of October hoping for a chance at a deer. He was denied that opportuniity last year by those who self-righteously proclaim their compassion by "allowing" xbows to be used during "their" season by those who "qualify." Screw that! I'm with you, Lee. Xbows for 50-year-olds RTF now!

[Lee Gerdermain]

I am saddened to learn of your father's malady. Life deals out many cards to each of us: some good; some bad. I hope that he is indeed able to resume bow hunting as both of you wish.

Currently there is a thread going on in the "Archery Discussion" forum here surrounding crossbows. It's a circular discussion. By that, I mean nobody knows really where is begins and nobody really knows where it ends. Therefore, all that happens is, the opinions get lengthier and the voices become louder. But to what purpose? Once in that circle, it's hard to get out, pro or con. To that end, one of our moderators, BOB@BBT, has now threatened to close it.

And frankly, that's exactly what some want to have happen; stop the dialogue right in its tracks; not because we're right and they're wrong or, they're right and were wrong. Rather, it's because these questions force one to take a hard look at the status quo. And some will always just say "no" in any discussion regarding the status quo.

And that's too bad because arbitrarily saying "no" to any issue without giving it due thought requires less of an effort; demands no dexterity of intellect, is void of attaining a level of skill that comes with practicing rational thought and logic over and over again until one’s mind becomes proficient at it.

Golly, aren't those the same physical attributes they ascribe to those who would use a crossbow?

Good luck to you and your father.

[2-BIG]

Lee, so if people don't agree with your opinion then you want to pick up your toys and leave? :confused: I still don't understand why you are being so vague about where you are from? Your profile is extremely vague and of the 83 counties here in Michigan there is no Oaland County. ;) I like to know a little about who I am debating with so I can have an idea of where they are comming from. A lot of these x-bow threads are started by people involved with making money from the sales of crossbows and THAT is their only motive for the debate. I believe that you must not be from Michigan and are only looking to stir up trouble. :yikes:
There are some very sad instances like the one that Hawker speaks of. I would reccomend his father seeking another therapist for approval. It sounds that the therapist is in the wrong not the law.

[Hawker]

2-BIG,
I still don't understand why you are being so vague about where you are from? Your profile is extremely vague and of the 83 counties here in Michigan there is no Oaland County. I like to know a little about who I am debating with so I can have an idea of where they are comming from.

What does this matter? Having failed to engage someone substantively you want to find some excuse to undermine his character?

I would reccomend his father seeking another therapist for approval. It sounds that the therapist is in the wrong not the law.

Do you even know if the therapist was wrong? This handicapped exception that you're all so proud of as an example of your compassion--do you even know how a doctor and phyical therapist are supposed to apply it? I've read the application. It sounds extremely restrictive. So beyond the obvious examples of amputation or paralysis, you have to rely on the knowledge and experience of the professionals. Expecting my father or others to see multiple doctors and/or therapists is unconscionable. The law must be changed.

[Lee Gerdermain]

Lee, so if people don't agree with your opinion then you want to pick up your toys and leave? :confused:

You have totally missed the point. My last post simply challenges those who arbitrarily say "no" to things, to give some thought to the criticism they bestow upon the crossbow hunter. Patience, practice and dexterity come in both varieties: mental and physical. Now, go back and re-read my last post.
_________

I still don't understand why you are being so vague about where you are from? Your profile is extremely vague and of the 83 counties here in Michigan there is no Oaland County.

Would you stop looking for communist in the shadows!! Sheesh!. When I signed on to this website a few months ago for the first time, it asked that post where I resided. I posted “Oalnad” County and never gave it a second thought until some other member here brought it up in another thread. Yikes--a typo! If it makes any difference, I live in Oakland County. But looking at it in retrospect, I kind of like Oalnad batter. (incidentally I was born and raised in Farmington Michigan and still reside in Oakland County) Now, don't you feel silly?

________

;)I like to know a little about who I am debating with so I can have an idea of where they are comming from. A lot of these x-bow threads are started by people involved with making money from the sales of crossbows and THAT is their only motive for the debate.

If you indeed want to know where I am coming from, I suggest that you go back to this very first post of this thread. Your inference that I work for a crossbow manufacturer and/or have a vested interest in these matters beyond what I posted previously here is shallow and shameless.


____________________

I believe that you must not be from Michigan and are only looking to stir up trouble. :yikes:

Sadly again, I believe that you are wrong regarding my place of residence. Trouble? If you believe having an intelligent and open discussion surrounding what many believe to be a contemporary and important issue as creating trouble then, I think free speech must be optional in your neck of the woods. I can tell ya, free speech ain’t optional over here in Oalnad County! .

That said....please share with everybody here, 2-Big, why me or anybody else "not" being from Michigan would have ANY baring on these discussions, as you infer? Please tell everybody reading this thread why that is important? Take all the time you want.


_______________________

There are some very sad instances like the one that Hawker speaks of.

At least we agree on something


_________________________

I would recommend his father seeking another therapist for approval. It sounds that the therapist is in the wrong not the law.
What you are describing is referred to as "doctor shopping" which is called out very clearly in the "application to take game with a crossbow" as being a big “no no”. I learned long ago that there is no right way to do a wrong thing. If Hawker's father, irrespective of his maladies and/or his or his son’s desire to continue in the sport of bow hunting, is not adjudged to meet the criteria set forth on the application, then it's simply too bad, bad luck and tough cookies for his sorry butt; the law is the law! Right?

_____________

[Hawker]

Lee,

Don't give in to despair yet, you're just tired, as am I.

You're right, you know. This is an unresolvable, philosophically-based argument between those who ask "Why?" and those who ask "Why not?" Between practitioners and preservationists, between those who want something more, and those who are desperate to hold on to what they have, forgetting that holding on tightly is the surest way to lose something.

Change will come, I am certain of that. Preservationists cannot prevail in the face of an evolving resource. For me, the sadness is in how many more will be denied opportunities whilst the intractables hold power.

[2-BIG]

Lee from Oalnad County, what does not being from Michigan have to do with this debate? All you have to do is go to the bowsite Michigan forum and look up the old x-bow threads to find out. Basically the ONLY people that were pro-x-bow were from Ohio or Ontario except of course a couple of people that sold x-bows here in Michigan. Money is the bottom line whenever there is a push for x-bows here in Michigan plain and simple. Attend a NRC/DNR meeting sometime if the x-bows make a push again and you will see that the people pushing them are making money from the sales of them!
As far as me liking to know where someone is comming from when I am debating something, why is that a problem for you? I looked at your profile to see if you are a senior citizen since you are obviously pushing x-bows for seniors (and younger like 50) but you put Oct.10 as your birthdate. No year?
You list your job as J.D.? What is that? Don't know why your so vague? Only you know.
You have shamed me into submission so I will leave now. :( :( :(

[Lee Gerdermain]

Lee from Oalnad County, what does not being from Michigan have to do with this debate? All you have to do is go to the bowsite Michigan forum and look up the old x-bow threads to find out. Basically the ONLY people that were pro-x-bow were from Ohio or Ontario except of course a couple of people that sold x-bows here in Michigan. Money is the bottom line whenever there is a push for x-bows here in Michigan plain and simple. Attend a NRC/DNR meeting sometime if the x-bows make a push again and you will see that the people pushing them are making money from the sales of them!

And there also, by the grace of God, will be I; one private citizen; having no vested interest other than the issue at hand, on nobody's payroll, counseled by none, firm in my resolve and contrary to what you infer, as clean as the driven snow!

As far as me liking to know where someone is comming from when I am debating something, why is that a problem for you? I looked at your profile to see if you are a senior citizen since you are obviously pushing x-bows for seniors (and younger like 50) but you put Oct.10 as your birthdate. No year?

Please, again for the sake of clarity, explain to us what my age has to do with any of this. Would it matter if I were 18? 21? 30? 45?, 55? 65? 85? 95? Please put in your unique reason why it matters behind each age block. Again, take your time. If you're so interested in knowing where someone is, as you say, "coming from" (spell) why do YOU post as an alias. For all we know, YOU could be an "anti" trying to stir things up, a commie tree hugger, maybe even a Democrat or worse yet, one of those slaves to Rome, Catholics.

You list your job as J.D.? What is that? Don't know why your so vague? Only you know.

Perhaps it's one, or all of the below:


Just Divorced


Jacuzzi Diver


Junk Dealer


Journal Deliverer


Juris Doctor
You have shamed me into submission so I will leave now. :(:(:( Thank you.


Finally, some sincere advise to you 2-Big: Stop trying to impinge the character of people with sly innuendo like "you must be this" or "you must be that", as if everybody knows that if you are either "this or that", and as such, it is a horrible thing and he/she must be a horrible person. That technique stinks. Argue and discuss the issues on their merit, in a civil fashion as everybody here has maintained throughout. Nothing more. Nothing less!


Agree?

[2-BIG]

Lee if you go back to page 1 of this thread and read yours and my posts it was civil and I posted that I agreed to disagree with you. The end. But like the 100 plus x-bow threads before on this site and others, you will notice that the pro-xbow guys/gals begin talking down to those who oppose them. I was going to leave this thread alone after the 1st page but I kept reading along and when the different people started posting how uninformed, stupid, or selfish those are that oppose x-bows, I got defensive. Like I said before, it makes a big difference in knowing who I am debating with because I like to know if I should continue the debate or if I am just speaking to a brick wall. I have debated with those who have a financial gain from crossbow sales ( sporting good store owners, crossbow advertisers, etc.) and it was a big waste of my time. Things always get ugly when money is involved and that is why I like to know who is involved in the debate. Paranoia? Some probably, but it is definitely warranted due to my past experiences with this subject. :(
I am all for free speech and you have now made your point very clear that your intention of this thread is a perfectly innocent one, I will go in peace. I am done posting on this thread. I wish you all the best. Take care. :)

[Hawker]

Good grief, 2-BIG, your search for the sinister has regressed to farce. Was it really that much of a mystery where Lee was from? The name of the county was only missing one letter. I understand your's and deputy's posts and they both have far worse typos than that!

Asking a couple of people what "J.D." meant before accusing Lee of vagueness might have saved you some embarassment. You know what M.D. means, right? Well, J.D. is the degree you earn when you graduate from that other school many hopeful mommies would like their children to attend. He's an attorney!

What drew me to this thread was the incredible amount of sincerity and civility in the discussion. I know I have participated in A LOT of xbow related threads on this forum where that was lacking.

Now, back to work.

Bowhunting is not a house, comic book, or baseball card. It can't be "preserved" because the resource we use and the pool of participants is constantly changing. Individual practiitioners can choose to bowhunt using equipment and techniques that suggest earlier times. Attempts to force others to forego more inclusive equipment, compound bows for example, have failed, and rightly so. The resource has prospered and more people can enjoy the sport.

Now, demographics suggest that inclusion of crossbows is timely. Hunters are aging, recruitment is poor. The experience of other states suggests crossbows are unlikely to have an adverse impact on the resource. To assuage the worries of those concerned about a wholesale slaughter of the deer herd, we can phase in the use of crossbows. I agree that we should begin with that demographic that we're most vulnerable to lose--those 50 years and older. I would also add crossbows to the later archery season and late antlerless for anyone. After 5 to 10 years, we would know if crossbows had been or would likely be harming the resource. I know some others would like a "primitive season" for them, like they have in other states. I could agree with that, but we still need to target that fifty and older demographic in the early season for inclusion. While I would like crossbows to be universally allowed during early bow, these are compromises I could live with. Thoughts?

[Lee Gerdermain]

This thread was recently moved from the "Michigan Whitetail Deer Hunting" forum to here, the "Archery Discussion" forum by perhaps some well-meaning moderator. Perhaps this occurred because some of the discussions herein have centered upon the merits of traditional and/or compound bow apparatus versus the crossbow apparatus, etc. Frankly, if the implications of this dialogue/thread were limited merely to that issue, then I would agree to such an electronic housekeeping.

However, this subject involves, as many, many honest, concerned and well- intentioned sportspeople suggest a “shift” of an established State-managed resource, yet to be defined, that extends beyond mere archery, its seasons and current legal definitions. To move this thread here, again, perhaps well-intentioned, relegates it to a local, parochial discussion group that every thinking person who has contributed to this dialogue so far, whether it be pro or con, categorically share that it is not!!

This is not an exclusive archery discussion; nor is it exclusively a gun-hunting discussion. Rather, its much bigger than that: it is an open discussion that touches upon the overall management of our natural resources and the people that use them. Since the primary and principal use of taking game with a crossbow involves the harvest of whitetail deer here in the State of Michigan (and not small game), I recommend that this thread be moved back to its original forum where, those who might have an opinion and/or those who that could be affected by these matters most have the greatest opportunity to be exposed to it, and be given the opportunity to participate in the dialogue.

Bottom line: It’s definitely just an "archery thing"

[john warren]

there is nothing inherently unsporting about a cossbow,any more then there is about a rifle.the biggest reason they are controlled is because its such a good weapon for poaching.at least that my guess.can be shot at night silently from a vehicle.

[jimmyboy]

And what is it's effective range when shot from a vehicle?

[Lee Gerdermain]

there is nothing inherently unsporting about a cossbow,any more then there is about a rifle.the biggest reason they are controlled is because its such a good weapon for poaching.at least that my guess.can be shot at night silently from a vehicle. ....Regretfully, is not supported by the facts.

First off, neither a long bow, a compound bow, nor a crossbow can be easily used from within a vehicle, unless that vehicle is a pick-up truck and your standing in the bed while shooting :rolleyes:. To your point, one would have to fully extend the crossbow out the vehicle's window, followed next one’s entire upper torso in order to be able shoot. That's not only cumbersome; it's unrealistic, even for the most physically fit poacher, which somehow, does not fit my image of this sort..

Secondly, a crossbow has, just like a traditional bow or compound bow, limited range and accuracy beyond 40 yards; perhaps the crossbow being less than the other two. That considered, I find it fairly difficult to visualize any wild animal, let alone a whitetail deer, remaining immobile while some dunderhead (1) pulls over his 1987 Buick Regal, (2) rolling down the window, (3) stick a intimidating looking object out of that window, (4) followed by an even more even intimidating (and foul smelling) object sticking its entire upper torso out the same window; all the while (5) the intended target stands motionless all within 40 yards in complete amazement while (6) waiting for the next thing to "totally natural" event to transpire!! Sheesh! There is a place for this kind of thinking: I think it's call Disneyland!

Now that we have dispelled the subjective thinking, here are some hard facts from the State of Ohio where, incidentally crossbows are permitted throughout their archery season: "During a five-year period in the 1990’s, 633 hunting implements used during the commission of wildlife violations were seized by wildlife officers in Ohio. Firearms accounted for 95% (602); vertical bows accounted for 2.7% (17); and crossbows accounted for 2.2% (14). "

Most every law enforcement agents out there will tell you that the .22 caliber rim fire is still the poacher's weapon of choice by a country mile. Now, to infer that we should not expand the use of crossbows in our State, because it will lead to an increased incidence of poaching and/or makes poaching more efficient, is totally illogical and. as the numbers CLEARLY indicate, incorrect.

[farmlegend]

To your point, one would have to fully extend the crossbow out the vehicle's window, followed next one’s entire upper torso in order to be able shoot. That's not only cumbersome; it's unrealistic, even for the most physically fit poacher, which somehow, does not fit my image of this sort..

Secondly, a crossbow has, just like a traditional bow or compound bow, limited range and accuracy beyond 40 yards; perhaps the crossbow being less than the other two. That considered, I find it fairly difficult to visualize any wild animal, let alone a whitetail deer, remaining immobile while some dunderhead (1) pulls over his 1987 Buick Regal, (2) rolling down the window, (3) stick a intimidating looking object out of that window, (4) followed by an even more even intimidating (and foul smelling) object sticking its entire upper torso out the same window; all the while (5) the intended target stands motionless all within 40 yards in complete amazement while (6) waiting for the next thing to "totally natural" event to transpire!! Sheesh! There is a place for this kind of thinking: I think it's call Disneyland!


My sides they be a' akin'!!! :lol:

FWIW, from where I come from, "J.D." was common slang for "juvenile delinquent".

[Lee Gerdermain]

FWIW, from where I come from, "J.D." was common slang for "juvenile delinquent".

Thank you; You win the washer/dryer!!!


I was so dumb in high school that my grade-point started with "point"


I thought the "ACT" was a new treatment for acne!


I thought the "SAT" was merely the past tense for sitting down


I thought that the "college boards" were my senior classmates who decided not to continue their education, stay at home, and work at Farmer Jacks.
Now, back to the issues at hand regarding this thread: "Recruit: Yes, Retain: Forever!"

[john warren]

ya know now that i thinkof it,,,,at 54 i can't pull in those college chics like i used to,,,can we get a law requiring a percentage of them to only go out with old goats?

[langkg]

Good thread.

The issue of cross bows vs no cross bows is really more a matter of bow vs gun. The point is - when you hunt with a bow (compound, recurve, long bow) you have to DRAW on the animal when you intend to shoot the animal. Granted, a typical man can hold an 80% let-off compound steady longer than he could hold a stick bow - but the point is, you DRAW when you intend to SHOOT. That makes it challenging. Anyone who has bowhunted for any length of time has been "caught" by the animal as he draws.

With a cross bow you cock that sucker well in advance of seeing your prey. You can sit for hours with the thing ready to go. It's a gun. Granted, limited range but it's a gun. You simply pull the trigger when your ready to kill an animal. Therein lies the difference. It's not a bow in the functional sense and does not belong legal for bow season.

-KEN-

[kbotta]

Not a bow in the functional sense? HMMM....Lets see....

Stick?....check
String?....check
Arrow?....check
Twang?...check
Broadhead?....check
Seems like a functional bow to me. Only diff is a "held at draw time"
Lots a people ise trigger releases, so thats not a diff.

kb

[Munsterlndr]

Good thread.

....... The point is - when you hunt with a bow (compound, recurve, long bow) you have to DRAW on the animal when you intend to shoot the animal. Granted, a typical man can hold an 80% let-off compound steady longer than he could hold a stick bow - but the point is, you DRAW when you intend to SHOOT. That makes it challenging. Anyone who has bowhunted for any length of time has been "caught" by the animal as he draws.

With a cross bow you cock that sucker well in advance of seeing your prey. You can sit for hours with the thing ready to go. .......
-KEN-Ken -
As someone who has hunted with both a bow and a gun from an elevated stand I have to disagree with you. The motion required to shoulder a gun is similar to the motion required to draw a bow, and if you are waiting for the deer to be "up close and personal", as is required with a crossbow, you are going to get busted just as often making this movement with a crossbow as with a bow. A gun is different since you typically don't let the deer get within 20-30 yards, so they are less likely to see you make a minor movement.

I would also submit that it is just as difficult to sit there with a 6 lb. rifle or crossbow shouldered while waiting for the right shot opening as it is to hold a draw with a 80% let off bow. Pick up a rifle and shoulder it, without a sling or rest, and see how long you can hold it at your shoulder before your muscles start to cramp. Couple this with your glasses fogging up and the shaking caused by the adreniline rush from seeing a deer and it's going to be plenty "challenging". Your not going to use a rest like you would with a gun because of the likelihood of the limbs hitting the rest upon release.

I just don't buy this argument that a crossbow is really a gun but I understand why bow hunters continue to make it. If you concede that a crossbow is really a bow, you may just have to share your exclusive season with more hunters.

_______________________________
Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Lee Gerdermain]

These matters are NOT about the merits of longbows, compound bows, versus crossbows. It is NOT about similarities and dissimiliarities between the various weaponry. It is NOT about the skill or lack of skill required to execute either and/or all. It is NOT about one having an unfair advantage over the other while afield. It is NOT about any of this!


What it "IS" about, within the scope and context of my original post, is managing the resource: in human terms, in economic terms, and last, but not least, in envirnonmental terms. ANY other discussion, pro or con surrounding a crossbow,as I have suggested, is secondary.

Stay focused.

[Thebear_78]

here is an easy fix guys.......

One season starts Oct 1, ends Dec 31. Two kill tags use whatever the heck you want. Frankly I couldn't care less. I for one will shoot a bow, longbow or recurve, until I am no longer able to, then I'll set it down. You don't see too many 50+ year olds rock climbing but that is no reason to put in place elevators on all the clif faces. For what its worth I've seen some very old, 75+, individuals shooting 35# bows. A sharp broadhead out of a 35lb recurve will kill any deer that ever lived.

[Lee Gerdermain]

here is an easy fix guys.......

One season starts Oct 1, ends Dec 31. Two kill tags use whatever the heck you want. Frankly I couldn't care less. I for one will shoot a bow, longbow or recurve, until I am no longer able to, then I'll set it down. You don't see too many 50+ year olds rock climbing but that is no reason to put in place elevators on all the clif faces. For what its worth I've seen some very old, 75+, individuals shooting 35# bows. A sharp broadhead out of a 35lb recurve will kill any deer that ever lived.
I have a little trouble with what you suggest and I think some others in high places might too. Perhaps a liittle bit more definition and structure is needed when attempting to effectively manage the resource.

Good analogy on the rock clibing thing though. Seems to be that a lot of stuff starts happening around age 50.

[Thebear_78]

The ultimate goal in managing the herd is killing deer. It doesn't really matter how they die. That only matters to us hunters. The only thing specific that might require structure or definition is the numbers of deer killed and thier sex/age/health. In the long run it doesn't matter what method used to harvest the animals. So why not a set number of deer tags, specific to antlerless vs antlered, and size regulations of antlered deer. Over the counter sale by county, first come first serve, limit of two. This way you can happily go about using what ever method you choose during the two month season. I'll still use my bow because thats what I enjoy, given my choise of weapons it is still what I would use. I do this because the method that I hunt is more important to me than the animal that I might take. If I really worried about being able to compete with other hunts for game I would use the most efficient method available to me, a high power rifle. This way no more bickering over what weapons belong in what seasons, everyone is free to hunt what ever way they choose and no exlcusion. THe state is happy because they get the deer herd managed in a very specific biologist controlled way. Sure a lot of people might stop using bows and only use guns, but they are only in it for the kill anyway. They are not true archers and shouldn't bother with a bow anyway. A true archer does it for the love of the sport, the sight of an arrow in flight, and challenge of having to truly "hunt" for the game by taking an active role by stalking and knowing an animal well enough to get close to them and place thier shot.

[Lee Gerdermain]

You have some really big thoughts there, Thebear_78. Some of these thoughts may indeed have merit. Regrettfully though, they are somewhat off topic from the original theme of this thread which we been have trying to preserve throughout. Not that your ideas shouldn't be discussed and/debated, but, since what you suggest is even bigger than what's going on in here, it's probably worthy of its own thread. Thanks and good luck.

[Lee Gerdermain]

I'm looking at graph right now that illustrates the age distribution of Minnesota bow hunters (vertical bows only) taken in 1994 as part of an individual's Master's thesis. According to this graph, the exodus from bow hunting commences way earlier than age 50 than what I originally had suggested. Specifically: their age distribution starts at about age 12 (which is reasonable considering the dexterity required to pull a vertical bow and the physical development of the human body) It then ascends at a sharp vertical angle, to where it peaks at age 37. It then descends just as fast to age 60 and then flattens out to age 83, where it ends in total.

Since I cant post the graph here, do this really quick exercise in order to visualize and truly appreciate what I have been saying all along.



Take a piece of plain paper draw a "L" that is exactly 9 inches long and 5 inches tall, marking each line at every inch mark.


Now, extend each line vertically and horizontally until you have 45, 1-inch squares.


On the horizontal line, start at 0 and mark each inch-mark according to age: 0, 10, 20, 30, etc.


Now, on the vertical bar, mark each inch mark at the same "0" then upward 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. This is percentage.


Now, put a dot the horizontal bar that would correspond to age 12.


Next, put a dot on the horizontal age bar that would correspond to the age 38.


Next, put a dot on the horizontal age bar that would correspond to the age 62.


Finally, put a dot on the horizontal age bar that corresponds to the age 80


Now, get a ruler and a pencil and connect the age 12 dot to the 38 dot; the 38 dot to the 62 dot; and the 62 dot to the 80 dot.
Amazing, isn't it?. And these are 100% vertical bow hunters!

Starting to sink in?

[2-BIG]

Now geometry lessons? :confused: What is interesting is that a few years ago at the Archery Trade show, the x-gun manufacturers had a meeting telling how to promote x-guns. Lesson number one is CALL THEM HORIZONTAL BOWS AND CALL COMPOUNDS/RECURVES VERTICLE BOWS. Basically change the Leopards spots so people can't see it is a Leopard! Try to decieve people by using word games. Kinda what Bill Clinton and Lee have in common! ;)

[Munsterlndr]

Now geometry lessons? :confused: What is interesting is that a few years ago at the Archery Trade show, the x-gun manufacturers had a meeting telling how to promote x-guns. Lesson number one is CALL THEM HORIZONTAL BOWS AND CALL COMPOUNDS/RECURVES VERTICLE BOWS. Basically change the Leopards spots so people can't see it is a Leopard! Try to decieve people by using word games. Kinda what Bill Clinton and Lee have in common! ;)
I see we are back to the conspiracy theory that it's the big, bad crossbow manufacture's behind all of this. :rolleyes:

Lee must be a commie mole out to subvert bow hunting in Michigan! But then again what do you expect from someone from Oalnad County. :lol:

Give me a break, Lee continues to offer factual arguments to support his original assertion and all you can come up with is this conspiracy junk?

If that's the best you can do I think it's time to close this thread.
__________________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[2-BIG]

Lee, no need to send nasty private messages to me. :mad: Say what you feel right here in front of everyone. :evil: I was not claiming a x-gun manufacturer conspiracy here, I was pointing out that they advise people that are promoting x-guns to use certain language like (horizontal bow) and to dumb down the x-gun by comparing it to compounds. :dizzy: By the way the x-guns internal ballistics make it a totally different animal from a bow. This is a documented proven fact and I'm suprised that you haven't included this in all of your other studies, charts, facts,etc..... :yikes:

[Lee Gerdermain]

I see we are back to the conspiracy theory that it's the big, bad crossbow manufacture's behind all of this. :rolleyes:

Lee must be a commie mole out to subvert bow hunting in Michigan! But then again what do you expect from someone from Oalnad County. :lol:

Give me a break, Lee continues to offer factual arguments to support his original assertion and all you can come up with is this conspiracy junk?

If that's the best you can do I think it's time to close this thread.
__________________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training . unless you believe that it has genuinely run its course. Even then, the issue continues.

A few here would like to flame things up to the point where a moderator has no other choice than to close the thread. That is EXACTLY what some want to have happen!

Look, everybody, particularly you moderators .. you must agree that this discussion, albeit controversial, has been an outstanding open, public dialogue to date. There have been over 140 response posts, coupled with over 3000 views. Cripes, this might be a new Michigan-Sportsman.com Forum record without the obligatory flameout and subsequent moderator closure! It is obviously, by the shear numbers here, a topic of great public concern

Be strong! Do not allow the flamers to close this thread utilizing this obvious, adolescent tactic, simply because a person(s) is opposed the subject being discussed.

LG

[2-BIG]

Yes Lee, I accept your appology for the nasty private message about me and this thread. I believe it is time to close this thread.
This is what you expected from me isn't it Lee?

[Lee Gerdermain]

these are some other very interesting statistics:

The average age a person was initiated into the sport of bowhunting:

12-16 = 23%
17-22 = 32%
23-30 = 23%
30 and beyond = 22%

Total = 100%
____________

The distribution of intitial bowhunting mentor (aka: "who got you started")

Acquaintance = 3%
Parent = 14%
Relative = 20%
Self = 31%
Friend = 32%

Total = 100%

_____________

Mean age of initiation of bowhunters by their initial bowhunting mentor:

Relative: age 26
Friend: age 25
Self: age 24
Acquaintance: age 23
Parent: age 16

[Pinefarm]

Once the nasty PM's start over a thread that's run it's course, we end scene...closed.