taking a deer with a .223?

[Crappie John]

can you take a deer with a .223? it has the range and power but can it take a deer down. I know they make some big bullets like a 80 grain but does it have knock down power? has anyone even hunted deer with one before?
thx -John L.

[Bwana]

can you take a deer with a .223? it has the range and power but can it take a deer down. I know they make some big bullets like a 80 grain but does it have knock down power? has anyone even hunted deer with one before?
thx -John L.
You could kill a deer by hitting it in the head with a rock. The question is why would you want too. I do not think there is any doubt a 223 will kill a deer if hit in the right spot but the slightest miss could result in a lost animal; too much could go wrong. I would go with a larger caliber to error on the humane side.

[Munsterlndr]

I would agree with Bwana, the .223 is a very marginal whitetail cartridge and the chances of wounding the animal instead of killing it are too great. You can kill a deer with a .22 long rifle, too but there are laws against it and for good reason. In my opinion the .243 is smallest standard cartridge that should be used for deer and even then should only be used by a fairly experienced shooter.

____________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[hartman886]

You could kill a deer by hitting it in the head with a rock. The question is why would you want too. I do not think there is any doubt a 223 will kill a deer if hit in the right spot but the slightest miss could result in a lost animal; too much could go wrong. I would go with a larger caliber to error on the humane side. The rock was my first choice. It was just too heavy to carry through the woods. On the 223 my cousin drooped one in it's tracks with one. It was at close range and when the bllet hit it just below the spine the hair on it's back stood on end from the blow. It may not be the best choice but if it is all you got go with it. Just rember its not an elephant gun. chris

[Banditto]

The girl I took hunting hit a nice doe with a .243 and it did horrific damage. She nailed it through the heart quartering away. The bullet cut the side open like a zipper and framents went everywhere. The exit hole was astounding and it sent bullet fragments or bone fragments out in directions I didn't think were possible. The front quarter was blown into pieces.

So not to get off the subject of the .223, but the .243 is a great round.

And this is a morbid thought, but what round killed those guys in Wisconsin again?????

[Huntsman27]

Its marginal. However, with the Nosler Partition 60gr, The Win 64gr S.P., or other quality bullet it would work. But as others have said its not my first choice either [if its all I had Id use a premium bullet].

The heavier stuff 70-80gr are for the 1:7 twists. The 1:9 work with the others. Youd have to make sure you have the right twist to stabilize the bullets. Otherwise you wind up with a bullet yawing off target, a keyholing bullet, or worse yet......one that never comes close to the target.

I did carry an AR 15 once for deer, but never got to shoot at one, never saw anything to shoot at. The accuracy was outstanding, but no targets!

Have seen a lot of guys use 22-250s and 220 swifts and drop deer dead in their tracks before. One friend from Nebraska took a doe at 325 yards with his Swift with a head shot. Of course thats not for everyone, but in the hands of an expert marksman its possible. Rich

[DGF]

So not to get off the subject of the .223, but the .243 is a great round.

And this is a morbid thought, but what round killed those guys in Wisconsin again?????

I'd stay clear of using a .223 for deer for the reasons stated earlier. Too much margin for error, lack of knockdown power, etc.

The .243 I would say is a good choice o n the lower end, especially for the recoil shy. There are loads out there that will get the job done. As for the bullet fragmenting story, that is IMO bullet failure. I'm assuming the bullet lost its jacket going through the shoulder and would assume more meat was lost than could have been... None the less a dead deer is a dead deer. I'd rather have overkill than underkill.

As for what the hunters in Wisconsin were shot with, I believe it was a 7.62x39- An SKS or AK round. I think it's more along the lines of a 30-30 than a distance shooter like a .223. A sad story there...

~Dan~

[pacer88220]

First off the .223 is an excellent rifle when you spend the time learning it's handicaps. In the military We engaged targets at 500 meters and hit the target exactly where I aimmed.
Now with that said it should be noted you should be sure of exactly where you are aimming and where the bullet is going to hit.
The 7.62x39 is a mini 30 cal round that resembles the .308 though the cartridge is smaller and the lead is that similiar to a .38 or 357.
As far as the .243 being marginal I have to highly disagree there as I own a savage chambered in .243 winchester. I have 16 kills with this rifle and no I repeat no marginal hits meaning wounded animals. The distance of kills range from 30 feet to 350 yards.
Let it be known fall is a great time to get to know your rifle. Shoot apple stems and small twigs off trees then go hunting.
Practice practice and patience is the key to victory.
As far as the incident in wisc god rest the innoncent and hang that s.o.b high.

[TSPham]

Check out this website for some ballistic basics: http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm

A .223 is not the most practical Michigan gun. Not enough varmints to hunt. You can't varmint hunt at night with a centerfire, and too light for deer.

Sell the gun and get a .243 if you want less kick and loads available from 55 grains to 100 grain bullets. The .243 has one of the best ballistic coefficients out there and is a worthy gun for all-around use in Michigan. For those who like the .308, the .243 is basically the same case necked down to 6mm size. http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/243.html

[PrtyMolusk]

Howdy-

While I wouldn't recommend it, I have a buddy who took his first whitetail with a Valmet .223 (12 ga. / .223) combination.

[Ed Michrina]

My couzin took a doe with a 220 swift at around 100 yrds. It took 3 steps and dropped. We didn't recover the round but the lung on the shot side looked like soup and the bruising around the shot was incredible.

[FISH]

it was a .308 caliber that they were killed by in wisoconsin

[Cgrant]

personally feel that a 223 is an exellent choice, only if and when you become proffecent with it. If you have any dbouts, just compare this cartridge ,to an archery system. the secret to being good ,is to be comfortable.

[KarlMc]

I retired from the military (ARMY) and trained with an m16A1 and A2 for a bunch of years. I think you have to just look at what doctrine the weapon was designed for, wounding not neccessarily killing. Wounding takes 2 or more combatents from the battlefield so a round that would injure an animal without a clean kill would be perfect for battle. That's what the round was made for, I'd leave it where it belongs and get a gun that you don't have tose concerns with. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Photog]

Fish,

As I recall it was a SKS that was used in Wisconsin, and as far as I know the chinese never chambered it for the .308 or anything other than the 7.62x39. I could be wrong though, just ask my wife, to hear her tell it I'm never right.

[Randy Kidd]

I would not hesitate to use the .223 round, First because I would know the rifle and would be very proficient with it from shooting lots of ammo, Second I would not take a shot with it that needed to go through large bone. I would treat it as a very long range bow shot. shoot them in the same place you would with a bow, then the .223 becomes a great round for deer

[Swamp Monster]

It depends on the bullet used really...using varmit designed bullets may not be illegal, but imo is totally unethical. Nosler and a few others make .22 caliber premium, well constructed bullets that are meant for deer size animals. Depending on the twist rate of the barrels rifling, some guns don't shoot these premium bullets very well though. This caliber and other high velocity .22 centerfires are pretty popular in the south, especially in Texas, but keep in mind those deer are small in comparison to ours in most cases. In the hands of a very skilled rifleman who is willing to pick his shot and pass if necessary, using the bullets designed for the job, I say it would/does work just fine. Unfortunately, the large majority of the hunting/shooting public does not fall into this category and should stay clear of this caliber for anything other than varmit/target shooting.

[eiderdown]

I have shot several(more than 30) with a .223 T/C Encore.

The furthest distance was a little over 300 yrds. The closest distance was 25 yrds.

Not one of those 30+ deer traveled farther than 50 yrds after the shot.

It always amazes me that so many guys use those big caliber rifles to shoot Whitetails. Don't they get tired of wasting so much of the MEAT?????

Some of my closer shots have been placed just forward of the Ear.

The longer shots (over 150 yrds) have been placed at the second to last rib, just lower than mid-way point on the body.

Either way, the meat loss is very minimal.

Oh ya, 75% of those deer where adult Bucks. The rest were adult Does.

I don't shoot those button bucks or fuzzy face does.

[Huntsman27]

Not sure what you mean by wasting meat. I have shot whitetails with to many calibers to list. Frankly, if the bullets in the chest and the holes the size of a German 88......it doesnt matter theres nothing there I eat and no meat wasted.
No ribs, maybe a bit off the front shoulder but nothing I worry about.

Glad to hear your 223 works for you. I use mine more for varmints though, wood chucks prairie dogs and fox. Then again the 45-70 topples them nice too. Rich

[pacer88220]

First of all read the post I gave earlier before saying the chinese never made a .308 sks. Someone compared it to a 30-30 which is wrong. Also as far as sks goes the russian made is best, forged versus chrome not hard to figure there.
Now as far as rifle selection goes it needs to match shooting abilities. No matter what gun you use if you cant shoot it productively then leave it where you found it.
Also under another posting here .223 and retired military. Keep this in mind all military weapons are made to maim injury or kill. The .308 for ex. many others also was once a military round.Hmmm.
With practice and patience you develop the right techniques needed to productively use,-- anything to kill.
Using the .223 keep in mind head and neck shoots should be the main target area as they need the least amount of power to dispatch your target.
I agree that it is not one of the better matched guns in the game if shooting ability is not of the highest ability. But then again if one took the time to shoot it meaning practiced it has no problem with the sport.
Most people generally use larger guns to do the same job effectively but dont spend the time they should shooting that weapon either. Meaning a larger caliber does kill easier even on marginal placed shoots.
Most importantly know the weapon what you are limited to and what shoots well. Meaning shot groups.
.223 round at the base of the ear lobe within 100yrds. 7.62x39 back of head 50 yrds .243 right eye 275 yrds all died
30-30 threw it away 30.06 wives gun

[Sib]

And this is a morbid thought, but what round killed those guys in Wisconsin again?????

An SKS shoots a 7.62x39, which is a .30 cal projectile with slightly less power than a 30-30.

[Hunter333]

I agree with those that state that it depends on the shooter knowing the gun and how it shoots. Shoot a deer in the head and they will not move, that is the goal. With plenty of practice I have no doubt that a capable shooter would have no trouble killing a deer at the shooters comfortable distances.

[NATTY BUMPO]

. Unfortunately, the large majority of the hunting/shooting public does not fall into this category and should stay clear of this caliber for anything other than varmit/target shooting.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:
Unfortunately, thats exactly what I see at "sight-in days" at the local gun club year after year ..... . Most of the "hunting/shooting public" are really lousy shots and couldn't tell you what's the best deer bullet for their caliber if their life depended on it.
Lets be honest here- the centerfire .22s mentioned here (.223, .220 Swift, .22-250) were developed by and for varmint hunters. Almost all of the .22 cal bullets on the market are varmint bullets.
For the record, I really dont care how people deer hunt- use a big rock, poison darts, a piano wire snare, whatever. But if some genius were to show up at our deer camp raring to go with a hotloaded .223, he might be surprised at the welcome party. :yikes: :yikes: :lol:

[Huntsman27]

is 310-311 and not a 30 cal [308] diameter. Some die sets come with the 30 cal expander balls to utilize 30 cal bullets [more selection than the 310-311s] and the also include a 311 expander too.. Most all factory ammo mikes 311-310. Reloaders like the 30 cal bullets because you can then use ballistic tips/partitions/SSTs/ and the like.

The other advantage of the SKS round is that of using a pointed bullet, unless you single load a Win 94 [pointed bullets in a tube mag are not a good idea], The 30-30s blunt or rounded bullet bleeds off velocity and energy faster than a pointed bullet Make it a boattail and thats even better [less drag, maintains higher velocity]

The latter advantage can readily be seen on the ballistics page comparing say a 180gr round nose and 180 spire point. Everything being equal.........that RN dives pretty fast. Now, a guy shooting a deer at 30 yards wont care. However at extended ranges where wind drift and drop come into play its something to consider.

Lastly, I guess Natty you havent seen Barnes bullets/Nosler bullets/ or other quality bullets. If used in a 223 they would work just fine for deer. Although it isnt my 1st choice, If it were all I had I wouldnt hesitate to use it. It sounds as if you guys have all been brainwashed into the old "It has to be a 30 cal bullet to kill a deer". Im not picking on you, but there are good bullets and cartridges out there. One of my favorites to use is the 243. Drills them and works fine as my varmint gun also. Rich

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

I've shot a 223 a couple times. :lol:

I think there good little rounds and they are very accurate.

Very capabile of taking deer sized animals in the hands of the right person.

I personnally feal there is no reason to take a pony to a horse race.

[pacer88220]

Sib try reading the 30-30 is not even close to the 7.62x39. And as far as the 30-30 goes do YOU realize the damn thing is a .30 cal also. Hence the name 30-30. As far as those p.o.s rifle's are concerned the only reason they get away with saying it has killed more deer is the length of time they produced it. Personally If I had to have a lever action the .35 would start my selection only because of a larger powder charge I could fit in a casing reloading myself.
7.62 x 39 can be best described as a .308 on the conversation factor due to case size, powder load, and bullet size. Even if it only 65 grains it travels at a rate of speed comparable to hmmm guess gotta say it agaihe oippn .308.
Correct on the casing diam being slightly larger but overall lenghth is smaller. Projectile (read bullet) is also smaller then the .308 but for comparison sake on the given examples it compares very well with it.
Keep in mind I hunt to eat so I am profiecient at what I shoot when given the oppurtunity. If you cant get the job done with what you shoot accurately move out the way my turn.

[Swamp Monster]

Pacer, you confusing me a bit. Are you saying the 7.62x39 has similiar ballistic properties as the .308? If so, thats not true....ballisticly speaking...(read energy figures), it falls much closer to the .30-30 as Sib mentioned. And considering that most factory loads are lousy 125 grain bullets, I'd give the edge to the .30-30 on deer within 100 yards. Now, if you handload the 7.62x39, you can eek out more performance with better bullets, but the Sectional Density of those puny .30 caliber 125's is pitiful at best. Now, at extended distances, the spitzer style bullets in the 7.62 will shoot a bit flatter and hold energy a bit longer, but it is hardly a long range deer round.

[Swamp Monster]

Here's a link to back up my previous post. Look at the energy figures of the 7.62 and the .30-30. Ofcourse with more appropriate deer bullets and heavier weights, the 7.62 can be improved a bit. It is not even in the same class as the .308 Winchester, even in case capacity. Again these are factory loads and I have loaded both the 7.62 and .308 so I have pretty good idea what they are capable of when you roll your own.
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp

For some reason, the link won't post the results, but you can do a comparison on that page using the loads below to get a good idea of trajetory, velocity, energy etc.
Remington Express Ammo;
30-30 150 gr soft point:
Muzzle energy 1902
100 energy 1296
200 energy 858

7.62x39 125 grain soft point (using hevier handloaded bulelts would help, but still won't match the .308)
Muzzle energy 1552
100 energy 1180
200 energy 882

.308 Win 150 grain soft point
Muzzle energy 2648
100 energy 2137
200 energy 1705

[Huntsman27]

to see why the 762x39 isnt as powerful as the 308 its case capacity. You cant put as much powder in that small case.

Another point if youd like to consider is bullet comparison, Wolf now produces a 154gr Soft point for hunting in the 762x39 Even if its slower than most calibers It will still kill a whitetail within reason

In Russian calibers Im more a fan of the 7.62x54R, and have had a couple that have shot 1-1/2 to 2 inch groups at 100 yards with open sights. Now for a 100 dollar gun those worked great.

As for overall accuracy, the 30-30s generally group 2-4 inches at 100 yards. Most may shoot a bit better, but a lot of the shooters are not that good of shot.

Now, as for 30-30s not being any good for killing deer [remember what kind of guns they were replacing when they came out black powder, and other less powerful guns at the time] Id have to disagree. Ive taken deer out to 230 yards with them, and that particular 30-30 a Marlin 36 was very accurate and was done without aid of a scope. Ive since moved on to many other cals over the years and shot deer with a wide variety of calibers.The 270-30-06-243 I guess are the ones I use most now. Ive used magnums, including the newer WSM mags [poor deer last year in Oscoda got the schnott knocked out of it at the range of 10 yards with a 300 WSM].......didnt need that much gun, and blew a bowling ball hole through it.

I usually like covering the clearcuts near brushy areas, where I could shoot 300-400 yards and like the 270 for that job. This year however, I had to use the old 870 12ga as I just couldnt make it up to deer camp. I did get a decent 6 pt though so I was happy. Rich

[Sib]

Huntsman27,
Having a 30-30, 32 special and an 06 as my centerfire guns, I overlooked the .308 diameter as a better comparison, which I fully agree when we're discussing diameter.

[Huntsman27]

Ive heard those havent been as accurate as the 30-30 with their twist rate? Have you had any problems with that cal? as far as bullet weights shooting better or worse? I know of 2 for sale right now, and Ive been on the fence to buy one, but wanted someone who owns one to give me their opin. Thanks Rich

[Swamp Monster]

Huntsman, you are absolutely correct! I have no issues with taking whitetails with this caliber, I was just questioning Pacers logic as to the comparison to the .308 Win...there is no comparison! The .308 winchester is a far more effective round at all distances.
As for the 30-30, it has lost it luster certainly, but it kills deer far better than the ballistics suggest it should. I have a 30-30, a .308 and had a 7.62x39 and all three work if used correctly.

[Sib]

I haven't been able to discern much difference in their shooting. I'm sure I would if either gun was scoped, but neither are. I'm not sure just how good a gun this 30-30 is, as it was my Grandfathers Stevens bolt 30-30 that was passed down. Not sure on the quality of dept store branded guns? The 32 Special was my Uncle's gun passed down, so I've never really modified either gun for sentimental reasons. The .32 is a marlin and I really like the feel and enjoyed toting it on deer drives in the early eighties. We don't really drive any more and I generally hunt with the scoped 06.

It would not surprise me to learn the .32 is less accurate, bigger diameter projectile with the round nose and all, but I can't say I've noticed a big difference. But I see the .32 being pressed into service next year by a new generation and it will again see some action. :)

[Huntsman27]

I may snag one up and just see what kind of ammo I can roll for it myself. I used to use 30-30 cases in a pinch.

Swamp: also I understand what your trying to say on the 308 and I agree no comparison. The 308 is the hands down winner there.

[Ferg]

Ive heard those havent been as accurate as the 30-30 with their twist rate? Have you had any problems with that cal? as far as bullet weights shooting better or worse? I know of 2 for sale right now, and Ive been on the fence to buy one, but wanted someone who owns one to give me their opin. Thanks Rich

Trade or sell my .32 - I LOVE it - and never had to track a deer :-)

ferg....
I have it 'lightly' scoped 4x and sighted in @ 100yards -

[Skibum]

I'm not a big fan of .22 centerfires as deer rounds. They will work in the hands of an expert who is willing to to be very particular about his shot selection and who knows to use well constructed bullets. On anything less than perfect shot placement you are asking for trouble. I feel the same way about the .243. It is often touted as a good beginner caliber due to it's low recoil but I feel it is better suited to an experienced shooter. Personally I want a combination of cartridge and bullet that will drive through to the vitals from any angle. The .22's just don't have enough oomph to get the job done in a less than perfect scenario.

Jeff

[Ferg]

I'm not a big fan of .22 centerfires as deer rounds. They will work in the hands of an expert who is willing to to be very particular about his shot selection and who knows to use well constructed bullets. On anything less than perfect shot placement you are asking for trouble. I feel the same way about the .243. It is often touted as a good beginner caliber due to it's low recoil but I feel it is better suited to an experienced shooter. Personally I want a combination of cartridge and bullet that will drive through to the vitals from any angle. The .22's just don't have enough oomph to get the job done in a less than perfect scenario.

Jeff

You can't use a .22 for deer, no?

ferg....

[Skibum]

You cannot use a .22 rimfire. .22 centerfires such as the .223, .22-250, .220 Swift...are legal in Michigan.

Jeff

[Sib]

.22 rimfire, no can't use, but I believe he was speaking of bullet diameter in some centerfire rounds, that are legal.

[Ferg]

Thanks -

ferg....

[Hunter333]

I would say that a head shot would qualify as a "bullet that will drive through to the vitals from any angle." AGAIN, that is in the hands of someone that is profecient with the gun, any caliber. I shoot a LOT and would love to be able to not waste any meat by taking a head shot!

[Skibum]

Not much angle on a head shot when a big buck is standing at a sharp quartering angle with his head behind a tree ;) Personally I'm not a big fan of head shots. Seen too many deer with broken jaws. Maybe I'm just not a good enough shot but I like a little more margin for error.

Jeff

[Hunter333]

ski you are absolutely correct in your statement "Not much angle on a head shot when a big buck is standing at a sharp quartering angle with his head behind a tree." Given that situation, one would have to wait for an opening. Patience is something too many people lack unfortunately.......

[Skibum]

I don't disagree with that at all. On the flip side many deer are not taken because hunters wait too long for the perfect shot rather than taking advantage of a good makeable opportunity. My best whitetail was taken in a situation as I described earlier. He was quartering sharply away and following a doe up a hill. I was not going to get another opportunity. The 165 grain Partition from my 30-06 broke his right hip, angled through his midsection and chest, ad broke his left front shoulder. He looks down from my library wall as a reminder of a great hunt. I would not have taken that shot with a .223. All hunters should shoot based on their own level of confidence and taking into consideration the limits of their equipment. When I'm hunting with a rifle I prefer to put as many odds in my favor as I can. When using a shotgun, muzzleloader, or bow shot selection has to be altered accordingly.

Jeff

[Hunter333]

"All hunters should shoot based on their own level of confidence and taking into consideration the limits of their equipment." I couldnt agree more. I think the main thing being stated is that each person has the responsibility to make the correct decision as to what weapon they are confident with and with what shot as well. What one person is skilled at not everyone else is so there are endless opinions as to this thread topic......

[Swamp Monster]

Skibum, I'm with you. With the rifles I use, the bullets I select, and the ranges I shoot, there is only one angle shot I would not take (but I'm certain that I could take it as well with success but I won't/don't) and thats the texas heart shot. I want a caliber/bullet combo that will get to the vitals from any angle I've been presented. (Not really difficult on Whitetails) Where I hunt, you have about 1-3 seconds to make up your mind and take the shot....all I have to worry about is making sure it's an animal I'm willing to put a tag on.

[Bighunter4x4]

I will never admit anything of a gun expert but I have hunted with an Ar-15 one year while hunting on a golf course. I felt very competent with its accuracy as its the only rifle I owned and the first year up north in rifle zone. My setup is an Colt Ar-15 w a 20 inch hbar 1 in 7 inch twist shooting 75 grain hornady match moly hp's and use a 5 round magazine. I shot a deer with it at about 75 yds and put a pretty good quartering away shot on it. and it ran like 5 yds and tried biting at the entrance wound and fell over. Now if your asking me if I would use it again? In a swamp? In the brush? Ummm no. Not at all. I went into hunting this with the idea that I would have to be selective with my shots like a bow. The next year I shot one with the 30-06 and it ran further with a double lung shot but put a heck of a hole in it. Kinda made me sick to the stomach. Hope this helps

[Skibum]

Nothing unusual about a deer running a ways with a double lung shot. Basically a deer dies due to disruption of it's central nervous system or loss of blood pressure. Taking out part of the skeletal system as in a shoulder shot won't kill a deer any quicker but it will immobilize them until loss of blood pressure causes death. The timing can vary case to case so you have to be careful judging bullet performance on a few instances. The problem with .22 centerfires is that you cannot reliably count on suffient penetration to and disruption of vital organs on anything but a clear chest shot or a head or neck shot (which I don't personally like). That problem is compounded by the fact that most factory loads are loaded with bullets designed for varmints or target shooting. They are not meant to hold together and give deep penetration on large game animals. That can cause performance to be even more erratic if a rib is hit for instance. A .223 will kill deer but unless used by an expert rifleman with proper bullets and being very selective of shots it can result in the loss of wounded animals that a more appropriate caliber would have killed. That is why many states do not allow .22 centerfires for hunting big game.

Jeff

[Munsterlndr]

Re: Bighunter

I would be somewhat reluctant to use a hp match bullet on deer. Due to the relatively high velocity of the .223 I would be worried about a hp fragmenting if you hit a bone. A better bullet would be a hornady 60 gr. spire point or a Winchester 64 gr. Power Point. Having said that, I still don't think a .223 is a good choice for deer and that a .243 is the minimum caliber for deer that should be used by your average hunter. But I guess if that's the only gun you have you have to make due.

________________________

Munsterlndr
Curmudgeon in Training

[Bighunter4x4]

your right munster. I would never take that gun again as I now have another rifle with a bigger caliber. Thanks for the info on the HP's. As I recall now the bullet struck the knuckle of the deers front shoulder and made a shattered bone mess with a hole you could look inside with. Was just hoping to contribute my testamony to the guy who wants to hunt with a 223. Would you feel confident with that caliber as a serviceman? Its a great caliber but I know if I were to rely on something I would want one that would make two holes all the time :lol: . Have a good one!

[Skibum]

The reason the 5.56mm (.223) was adopted as a military round was to allow a soldier to carry more ammo not because the round is more effective.

Jeff

[pacer88220]

Well I see horse **** flyin here no doubt. Shock factor is the major reason behind the killing when it comes to firearms, Cutting factors damn near only apply in archery.
If anyone pays attention to detail they will understand that emergency rooms treat gun shot victims for shock first then damage to the vitals.
The m-16 was designed under the following reason's longer range, better accuracey, lighter carry. period. Anyone owning a ar-15 and a 308 higher care to demonstrate.
I am not saying the gun is perfect what I am saying is if YOUR shooting ability is for **** get a different rifle.
As far as my .243 goes I dare anyone to a shooting match period it does the job the deer fall in tracks no tracking period but then again I dont **** aroung death to the beast as I intended. period.
Now if you feel you this offends you remember I served in the Army Aug 1986 to Aug 1990 and during that time have been in an elite unit call A-3-26 Airborne Rangers my preferred weapon gov issued you guessed it m-16.
Know YOUR LIMITATIONS as no-one else Knows it till you do.
P.S olympic try outs suck to much crowds for me but still had fun.
.223 .243 7.62x39 and several other small arms best left in hands of shooter's instead of bullshitters. period

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

pacer where were you stationed at?

What was your mos?

just curiouse we may have been stationed in some of the same places.

[pacer88220]

Realize the reason the 7.62x39 is often compared with that of a .308 because of same reasons you just gave in several not one post several. Bullet construction and the powder load behind it. Both go hand in hand making it MORE ACCURATE then the 30-30 statistics. Matter of fact even our own government has a problem competin in 5.56 rounds. HMMMM

I call the 30-30 **** only due to well it is. A 30-30 cal claims a best of 2-4 inch shot groups. Very unacceptible in my terms. My .243 I can touch the first shots hole on the outer layer anytime of the day weeks later. Can you with your rifle?
My goal is to put meat in the fridge not waste unneccessary shots or wound.
Please anyone reading these post's buy the rifle you can afford and become intimate with it as there is no excuse for wounded animals not in the fridge.
If anyone is offended by what anything I wrote here so be it learn your rifle and better yet learn to be accurate with it.
Also realize that MOST SHOOT'S YOU HAVE STATED are for what I'd take when bowhunting broadside shoots.
I am not saying in any ways or means I am perfect but MY Shots are.

If you personally cant read all my post's and understand what is sais well to damn bad. Dont Knock A rifle till you tried hunting with it and for heavens sake dont disrespect any of them.

[pacer88220]

12 bravo combat engineer. Last duty assignment South America War On Drug Campaign. Only reason made it to ranger school--- combat med school and had wings. Also reason retirement never came was a big tree and little time for chute to deploy but hey were drifting here on this post.

[Huntsman27]

Skibum was the one saying they dont make anything but varmint ammo for 223s..Federal in fact, does load a 60gr Nosler Partition just for such an application. Also any Barnes copper X bullet in 223 Dia would work in the 223/22-250 or 220 Swift. If you wanted to use such a gun. [If I got the poster wrong, sorry].

As far as the 30-30 being schmitt, Well Its got more than enough for deer at practical ranges. Again not my choice, but it does work. The 243 better than 30-30? Indeed I would agree, although lighter bullets, the retained energy and accuracy make this my favorite gun. Doesnt matter if its white tails or varmints works great.

As far as the military cartridge, yep it was made to carry more ammo [being lighter], and the 62gr works better that the 55 gr ball, carrying more punch. As far as more accurate? That I dont buy.[maybe as good] Than the M-14? I know the AR`s shoot well at camp Perry, but If I had to carry my choice would be the M-14, 308s may be heavier but if your hiding beside or behind something that 308s going through more barrier than a 223 round is. The other point would be long range killing ability. 308s dont get blown off like 223s in a stiff wind [as we have proved shooting P-dogs out west] and retain a lot more energy.Again, personal choice.

As far as the 762x39 Soviet, it was actually snitched from the Germans in WW2 from the 8MM short. Which was developed by the Germans for close combat. Lots of guys load it for deer, again not anything Id use, but with the Wolf 154gr soft points, it would certainly do the job. Rich

[pacer88220]

Robert twelve bravo (12b). Ever do time at leonardwood or Ord.
Huntsman yes they have limiting factors. Yes they dont penetratre as well as say .308. But that being said the military has a little higher standard in shooting ability then the days of the m-14. Which is a shame they dont adapt a larger rifle for the job the more range the better.
See I will admit it does has limitations just as with any rifle. I'd have no fears with a refresher shooting one (or any rifle for that matter though to hunt with it though). Due to the fact I'd make sensible shot's and not exceed anything I or the rifle isnt capable of.
As stated once ago as the 30-30 having taken more deer reason for that bold statement is the number years produced and the ungodly amount made.
Hell in reality lets face it a .22 is the ultimate poachers weapon out there cost is cheap and the rounds are too.
But I dont see marlin laying claim to that as you do under their name and winchesters either. NOr in reality do I ever hope to see it.
That being said people it's not the gun that makes the best of the shot it's the person pulling the trigger.
once more practice practice and patience.
And wake up realize your not bowhunting try them head shots and neck also forget the broadside.
I had a deer my grandpa had mounted shot thru the left ear at 130 yrds with a british .303.
Maybe if he knew his stuff the rest should to hell he done it 78 y/o. I only hope to live that long let alone hunt at that age and make a shot half as nice.

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

A 223 is not more accurate than a 308.

The wind alone takes care of that.

Yes some people can dispatch deer with a 223 no problem.

But it is at best at the very bottom end of what most people consider a deer round.

With the multitude of choices out there I don't know why some one would want to take that chance.

But hey shoot what you want.

I have done a far amount of shooting myself and no one is perfict all the time that I know.

Every one blows a shoot. In my opinion it's far better to have a little room for error.

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

Yeah they changed the mos pacer its now 21 but that was way after you got out.

No I never got to fort lost in the woods :lol:

I was in Ft Benning. Home of the dirty nasty legs. LOL
Then Germany then back to Benning. Not counting deployments.
I was 11x b4. There are no more 11 bravo's every one is one big group now.

[pacer88220]

Robert true but with substained PRACTICE and willingness to accept it's limitations it or any rifle can and will put meat on the table
Yes wind can play a role and yes miscalcaltions can and do happen but when in doubt wait a better chance for a kill will come.
No I am not saying it perfect but it aint a round to steer clear of.
Did anyone ask at the start of the post how much time he has spent shooting it? Did anyone notice that I have stated numerous times to learn the gun by shooting it first?

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

agried. ;)

But I got burnt out on shooting so I'll stick with my meat pulverizing 350 rem mag. that way I can cut down on range time and I don't have to carry my dope book LOL.

[Huntsman27]

Practice part. As far as killing deer, its not that great of feat shooting a coupl to 300 yards at one and killing it after shooting P-dogs at ranges out to close to 800 yards. Hell a deer looks like an elephant.

I understand not all can master the abilty to shoot like that. Its knowing their limitations.

I guess you hate those 30-30s huh? Anyways, like I said not my first choice either. I enjoy hand loading my own in many calibers and finding out what I can do with them.

I guess that your also not a fan of the M-14s or the current M1A Springfields? Military higher standards? Hmm brings to mind a Marine by the name of Hathcock and Co, that used them along with other sniper rifles and worked quite well. But to each his own. Rich

[pacer88220]

Robert gee times changes there in the military huh. Oh well.
The .223 will produce a flatter trajectory, and less kick. In related tems it has the potential to be more accurate then the .308. That being said a shooter would normally choose a bolt over a pump a pump over a lever and a lever over a auto.

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

Huntman,
They still use M-14's as sniper rifles.
Spec ops uses them.

The currant sniper rifle for the army the (M-24) is a 308.

[pacer88220]

Huntmans yes I am not a fan of the 30-30 but dead wrong on the rest.
I have a 8mm mauser converted and an enfield 1917 conversion and a .35 I plan on selling for a 45-70. All great guns and shoot real well though hate lever actions. That said I prefer small calibers due to price of shells and the controversy they cause at deer camp.
Though most of the guys know my rifle when given the chance no matter which one it is, is bringing home dinner.

[Huntsman27]

I might buy the 223 dropping less, but wind drift? nah the 308 isnt getting blown off as bad at extended range. I do like the 223s out west, on little or no wind days. Windy days its like shooting a 22 mag.

As far as Bolts and accuracy thats pretty much a given but with the Match and tricked out AR and M1As they make interesting shooting. Havent had one of the Springfields that wouldnt shoot an inch or less at 100 with the iron sights. Imagine the AR would be about the same. Rich

[pacer88220]

I understand not all can master the abilty to shoot like that. Its knowing their limitationstrue but with substained

PRACTICE and willingness to accept it's limitations it or any rifle can and will put meat on the table
guess you hate those 30-30s huh?
What do these have in common ? they are all true.

[Huntsman27]

Then on those points. Indeed if accuarcy is the ultimate point a 30-30 isnt going to get it.

Have been thinking about one of the new 204 Rugers though. Rich

[pacer88220]

Huntsman see now we are talking the terms I was trying to state in beginning.
Love shooting enough to where am comfortable pulling trigger on what I am aiming at and well hare chasing. The .223 is acceptible to wind drift and does "blow off target" but not as bad as well alot of the boattail rounds out there.
The biggest claim it has for accuracy is small round and lot's of powder for what it is a hyped up 22 with larger lead. Kinda backward thinking from a group that loved the .45 auto and no I am not knocking it either. Great gun lots of limitations lots of plus's.

[pacer88220]

huntsman I'll have to take a peek at one have'nt looked at one yet.

[pacer88220]

Robert still in army?

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

8 more months in the IRR.

Then I am free. ;)

[Huntsman27]

a new thread or something. That and the fact Iam goose hunting [in the morning] requires me to get some sleep.

Curious though? what is your 45-70 a single shot? Ruger? Will read post in morning, Rich

[pacer88220]

No an old bolt action. Haven't got it yet though.

[Skibum]

Well I see horse **** flyin here no doubt. Shock factor is the major reason behind the killing when it comes to firearms, Cutting factors damn near only apply in archery.
If anyone pays attention to detail they will understand that emergency rooms treat gun shot victims for shock first then damage to the vitals.
The m-16 was designed under the following reason's longer range, better accuracey, lighter carry. period. Anyone owning a ar-15 and a 308 higher care to demonstrate.
I am not saying the gun is perfect what I am saying is if YOUR shooting ability is for **** get a different rifle.
As far as my .243 goes I dare anyone to a shooting match period it does the job the deer fall in tracks no tracking period but then again I dont **** aroung death to the beast as I intended. period.
Now if you feel you this offends you remember I served in the Army Aug 1986 to Aug 1990 and during that time have been in an elite unit call A-3-26 Airborne Rangers my preferred weapon gov issued you guessed it m-16.
Know YOUR LIMITATIONS as no-one else Knows it till you do.
P.S olympic try outs suck to much crowds for me but still had fun.
.223 .243 7.62x39 and several other small arms best left in hands of shooter's instead of bullshitters. period

Pacer,
First off thank you for your service to our country. There are a couple of points that need clarification in your post. The AR15 (original design) which then evolved into the M-16 was designed as an infantry weapon for lighter carry and a higher rate of fire. To support that higher rate of fire it was built around the 5.56mm (.223) cartridge to allow an infantryman to carry more ammunition. It is not necessarily a more accurate combat weapon than the M14 (7.62mm or .308) or the M1 Garand or Springfield (.30 US or 30-06). Both of those rounds are better long range rounds despite the .223's higher muzzle velocity because they are less susceptible to wind drift and retain their energy better down range. If you don't believe me then look at the calibers used in 1000 yard target matches. That is also why military sniper rifles are .308's. Or .50 BMG's which really kick butt :D The 5.56mm and M16 are not necessarily more inherintly accurate than their predessors either. They are easier to train the average soldier to shoot accurately with because of their low recoil. That said, the M16 in 5.56mm is the best infantry weapon in the world. Just remember though the objectives are not necessarily the same as big game hunting. In combat wounding your enemy is nearly as desireable as killing him. In hunting big game the object is to kill your quarry as quickly and effectifvely as possible.

The second point is how bullets kill big game. Death is caused by either severe disruption of the CNS or loss of blood pressure with few exceptions such as sepsis infection from a gut shot etc. A shot to the brain or spinal cord in the neck will kill a deer instantly. A bullet through the lungs or heart leads to a loss of blood pressure and flow of oxygen to the brain also causing a quick death. The shock you refer to in trauma centers is the loss of blood pressure and blood flow to the brain. It should not be confused with the concept of hydrostatic shock which has to do with the transfer of energy from a bullet as it disrupts tissue. There is a lot of disagreement over the true effect of hysrostatic shock or "knockdown power" I'm not a big believer in it until you get to some of the really big bores.

Bottom line IMHO s that the .223 for big game is a marginal round. In the hands of a good marksman willing to be very picky about his shots and using bullets such as the Nosler Partition or Barnes it will kill deer. In it's ability to consistantly penetrate deep and cause severe damage to vital organs from any angle it leaves much to be desired. There are much better choices available.

Jeff

[Swamp Monster]

The second point is how bullets kill big game. Death is caused by either severe disruption of the CNS or loss of blood pressure with few exceptions such as sepsis infection from a gut shot etc. A shot to the brain or spinal cord in the neck will kill a deer instantly. A bullet through the lungs or heart leads to a loss of blood pressure and flow of oxygen to the brain also causing a quick death. The shock you refer to in trauma centers is the loss of blood pressure and blood flow to the brain. It should not be confused with the concept of hydrostatic shock which has to do with the transfer of energy from a bullet as it disrupts tissue. There is a lot of disagreement over the true effect of hysrostatic shock or "knockdown power" I'm not a big believer in it until you get to some of the really big bores.

Bottom line IMHO s that the .223 for big game is a marginal round. In the hands of a good marksman willing to be very picky about his shots and using bullets such as the Nosler Partition or Barnes it will kill deer. In it's ability to consistantly penetrate deep and cause severe damage to vital organs from any angle it leaves much to be desired. There are much better choices available.

Jeff

:yeahthat:
No horse Sh** flyin' around in them there words eh?!

[Sib]

:yeahthat:
No horse Sh** flyin' around in them there words eh?!
No, none there, but you do have to watch were you step in this thread. :yikes:

[Swamp Monster]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[pacer88220]

hmmm anyone hear of the s.a.w it is the russian version american 7.62x39 nato approved round at the time I left the service it was being planned as the replacement for the 16 due to better ops forget the crapola the 16 is best.
.223 is not junk that being said as it will steadily do the job if you can shoot it does too. Period on that point.
Skibum Hmmm explain this thought to me please. Death is caused by either severe disruption of the CNS or loss of blood pressure with few exceptions such as sepsis infection from a gut shot etc. A shot to the brain or spinal cord in the neck will kill a deer instantly. A bullet through the lungs or heart leads to a loss of blood pressure and flow of oxygen to the brain also causing a quick death. The shock you refer to in trauma centers is the loss of blood pressure and blood flow to the brain. It should not be confused with the concept of hydrostatic shock which has to do with the transfer of energy from a bullet as it disrupts tissue.:lol:
:bash: Do you want to call the er when I shoot the next deer in the head and see what knid of shock it died from? You stated hydrostatic shock which is not the term I stated shock is well shock You know taken aside from anything else. I'm not shooting a gel or water capsule to see what effect's the ballistics have. I'm using my known capabilities and the rifle in hand to create a dead creature that once mistaken walked in front of my rifle or a target that I planned on hitting and seeing how fast it takes to drop.:yikes:
Anyone here will agree yes a bigger cartridge will produce more damage to targets but is it neccessary to be marginal with a big cal as it is accurate with a small one.
How much gun do you think you need to kill a deer effectively brings out the biggest arguement known to man. We arent hunting elephants here in m.i and in a lot of area's I choose to hunt the .223 or .243 cover well. Hell two years ago I shot a deer 10ft from me this year 30 ft do I need a bazooka to cover that ground?
That being said last year I layed A 4pt were he stood 300 yrds from my blind with the .243 right eye missing no broken jaw and damn good jerky.
I killed more deer with smaller cartridges then the larger only out of preference.
And if used properly any I repeat anything can and will produce desired effects.:bash: ;) ;) ;) ;) :tdo12:

[pacer88220]

As far as angles go heads and necks are round and I'm patient read the previous post's. Quite dissecting the .223 so bad. Maybe if we spent more time learning our rifles and encouraging others to develop better shooting habits we would'nt have lost opportunities.
Learn to shoot the .223 and any other marvelous small cal's and then give reason's not to support their use.
Thinking maybe I'll pass on the 45-70 n buy the 22-250 I been eyeing instead post outcome of deer season next year. But bet I will take my own advice and see some shells fly thru it before heading to the woods for that next head shot.

[Skibum]

.
Skibum Hmmm explain this thought to me please. Death is caused by either severe disruption of the CNS or loss of blood pressure with few exceptions such as sepsis infection from a gut shot etc. A shot to the brain or spinal cord in the neck will kill a deer instantly. A bullet through the lungs or heart leads to a loss of blood pressure and flow of oxygen to the brain also causing a quick death. The shock you refer to in trauma centers is the loss of blood pressure and blood flow to the brain. It should not be confused with the concept of hydrostatic shock which has to do with the transfer of energy from a bullet as it disrupts tissue.:lol:
:bash: Do you want to call the er when I shoot the next deer in the head and see what knid of shock it died from? You stated hydrostatic shock which is not the term I stated shock is well shock You know taken aside from anything else. I'm not shooting a gel or water capsule to see what effect's the ballistics have. I'm using my known capabilities and the rifle in hand to create a dead creature that once mistaken walked in front of my rifle or a target that I planned on hitting and seeing how fast it takes to drop.:yikes:
Anyone here will agree yes a bigger cartridge will produce more damage to targets but is it neccessary to be marginal with a big cal as it is accurate with a small one.
How much gun do you think you need to kill a deer effectively brings out the biggest arguement known to man. We arent hunting elephants here in m.i and in a lot of area's I choose to hunt the .223 or .243 cover well. Hell two years ago I shot a deer 10ft from me this year 30 ft do I need a bazooka to cover that ground?
That being said last year I layed A 4pt were he stood 300 yrds from my blind with the .243 right eye missing no broken jaw and damn good jerky.
I killed more deer with smaller cartridges then the larger only out of preference.
And if used properly any I repeat anything can and will produce desired effects.:bash: ;) ;) ;) ;) :tdo12:

shock1 (sh k) n.
A.) A violent collision or impact; a heavy blow
B.) A potentially fatal physiological reaction to a variety of conditions, including illness, injury, hemorrhage, and dehydration, usually characterized by marked loss of blood pressure, diminished blood circulation, and inadequate blood flow to the tissues.

There are other definitions of shock as well such as electrical or surprise. That is why it needs to be specified what kind you are talking about. You ask how did your deer die when hit in the head? As I stated earlier disruption of the CNS will cause death. That or the disruption of vital organs and blood vessels leading to the second definition of shock as stated above. I'll be happy to call the error the next time you take a head shot and miss by a couple of inches due to wind, range estimation, the deer moves, etc. and you end up breaking a jaw. Maybe you are just a much better shot than I. I don't have the skill to shoot a deer in the eye at 300 yards and never miss. I also don't have the patience to let a big buck go because the only shot he gives me requires a bullet to penetrate deeply and break bones on the way. A .223 will kill deer but it offers very little flexibilty or margin for error. My best wishes that for your purposes you will never find it lacking. For mine I find it so and I've been at this game a long time.

Jeff

[Ferg]

hmmm anyone hear of the s.a.w it is the russian version american 7.62x39 nato approved round at the time I left the service it was being planned as the replacement for the 16 due to better ops forget the crapola the 16 is best.
.223 is not junk that being said as it will steadily do the job if you can shoot it does too. Period on that point.
Skibum Hmmm explain this thought to me please. Death is caused by either severe disruption of the CNS or loss of blood pressure with few exceptions such as sepsis infection from a gut shot etc. A shot to the brain or spinal cord in the neck will kill a deer instantly. A bullet through the lungs or heart leads to a loss of blood pressure and flow of oxygen to the brain also causing a quick death. The shock you refer to in trauma centers is the loss of blood pressure and blood flow to the brain. It should not be confused with the concept of hydrostatic shock which has to do with the transfer of energy from a bullet as it disrupts tissue.:lol:
:bash: Do you want to call the er when I shoot the next deer in the head and see what knid of shock it died from? You stated hydrostatic shock which is not the term I stated shock is well shock You know taken aside from anything else. I'm not shooting a gel or water capsule to see what effect's the ballistics have. I'm using my known capabilities and the rifle in hand to create a dead creature that once mistaken walked in front of my rifle or a target that I planned on hitting and seeing how fast it takes to drop.:yikes:
Anyone here will agree yes a bigger cartridge will produce more damage to targets but is it neccessary to be marginal with a big cal as it is accurate with a small one.
How much gun do you think you need to kill a deer effectively brings out the biggest arguement known to man. We arent hunting elephants here in m.i and in a lot of area's I choose to hunt the .223 or .243 cover well. Hell two years ago I shot a deer 10ft from me this year 30 ft do I need a bazooka to cover that ground?
That being said last year I layed A 4pt were he stood 300 yrds from my blind with the .243 right eye missing no broken jaw and damn good jerky.
I killed more deer with smaller cartridges then the larger only out of preference.
And if used properly any I repeat anything can and will produce desired effects.:bash: ;) ;) ;) ;) :tdo12:

Is it just me? Or was that VERY HARD to read? :tdo12:

ferg....

[Munsterlndr]

Pacer88220
It sounds like you are a good shot and know where your rifle shoots but I have to say that I would not reccomend that anyone take 300 yard headshots, regardless of what caliber they are using. The margin for error is just too small and a deer running around the woods with a jaw blown off is not a pretty sight.

Too many people who don't know how to shoot accutrately will see this and say " Gee, thats a great idea, shoot them in the head and not ruin any meat! If he can do it, I can too"

We owe it to the game we pursue to take the highest percentage shot that we can to eliminate wounding them.

Just my .02
__________________________

Munsterlndr
CUrmudgeon in Training

[Hunter333]

Hopefully what people will get out of this is: in the hands of an experienced person shooting a gun that they are intimate with will allow that shooter to take a shot that many cannot. There is no end to this discussion, there are as many opinions as there are members on this site. Just because I see a professional basketball player dunk a basketball doesnt not mean that I can..... Know what I mean?

[Skibum]

Hopefully what people will get out of this is: in the hands of an experienced person shooting a gun that they are intimate with will allow that shooter to take a shot that many cannot.

I agree with your statement that the skill level of a shooter will dictate what may or not be a reasonable shot. I disagree that that is the main point of this thread. It is more about what the bullet is going to do when it hits it's target. A 60 gr. .223 cannot be expect to consistantly perform adequately on deer size game, even with good shot placement. Not when there are ribs, shoulders, etc to potentially deflect the bullets.

Jeff

[rzdrmh]

Is it just me? Or was that VERY HARD to read? :tdo12:

ferg....


yes, me too .. i'm getting a headache trying to piece together the sentences.

here's what i love -

"That being said last year I layed A 4pt were he stood 300 yrds from my blind with the .243 right eye missing no broken jaw and damn good jerky."

you know, with recoil, if you hit the jaw at 300 yards, you're not going to see it. no one hears about these deer, cause the shooter assumes that he's either going to hit it or miss it. i'd guess a broken jaw is often called a miss, while that deer starves for the next few weeks.

[shoudek]

You are correct.....it was an SKS "Assault Rifle" and they are chambered in 7.62x39. Excellent deer rifle by the way.

[Swamp Monster]

.....it was an SKS "Assault Rifle" and they are chambered in 7.62x39. Excellent deer rifle by the way.

That depends on your standards...and who produced the model your using.

[pacer88220]

Look 1st of all
I am sure anyone reading this post by now will have heard me say almost everytime since the beginning of my post on this thread is this know what your limits are and what is acceptable to you in those terms before taking any shoot.

Also way back once a time in here I said it and will restate it for those that fail to read previous's if you can not shoot the rifle as well as you thinkl you should GET a NEW ONE.
Now that said I have to say all the shoots I have taken were because I felt comfortable with myself taking them.
No for heavens sake do I think that someone reading this thread will try to follow some of the shoots I have taken WITHOUT LISTENEING to what was said.
Practice practice and patience are an absolute must to be able to shoot a small cal long range and inflict the kind of damge needed to kill.
Now I am going to tackle this broken jaw crap. If I am shooting at the base of the ear and the animal decides to move I would presume it would go either forward or sideway not backwards which it would have to do to be hit in the jaw. If it did decide to move to the rear it does so by turning the head and body which places the round at the back of the skull or in thin air. I either miss or hit the animal period no bad hit because it gone and I effectively made a hole in a log near where it stood.
The animal moved is a b.s story for someone who thought they could make the shoot and kill rather then knowing they could effectively do so first.
In other words 99% of them spent the whole five minutes sighting in the rifle and headed hunting.
I shoot as good as I do because 1st I was taught that by my background growing up. Hunting put food onthe table if it didnt well it was a long winter. 2nd the aarmy did train me some but had most of the skills they taught before I got there.
Here just for fun place a dime on the barrel of your rifle. Squeeze the trigger on a empty chamber. Bet the dime fell If so you jerked the trigger not pull.
As far as the 7.62x39 it comes in the cheapest rifle avail and ready to hunt as accurately as the expensive model. Russian sks, Chinese sks, mini 30 and ak 47.
Note I even went as far as placing them in order of cost.Ak being the highest and also ak47 accepting the mak90's and other slot.
Only stated that the 7.62 is a good choice as it seems to be confused with the yep 30-30 which anything over 75 yrds in my book is stretching that gun thin for the shooting I do.
Marginal shots are not usually taken by someone shooting in the style as I prefer in actuality anyone have a guess as to how many deer could have died if I choose a larger cal and took shoots I care not too. If so let me know because I forget the total count though 8 bucks this year walked on due to that last part I have preached since I replied to this thread patience. Never rush the shot and always practice for it.
With that said anyone interested in some serious shooting let me know I have access to over 108 acres and am willing to prove my skill anytime.
.223 yes if not used in a reasonable manner at reasonable distances at reasonable targets are marginal. But so is any gun.

[pacer88220]

Also anyone ever stop to ask the equipment I use atop my .243 to be so sure it as as acurrate as I need it to be well here it is a simmons 3x9x52.
If on open sights with any one of my rifles I cut the stem from the before metioned apples tress and leave the apple unscathed in the process, at 20 yrds (if you can shoot try it leaves you wondering at end), I think a deer size target is the least of my rifles worries.



Be a great sight if people read and understood before disregarding anything said.

[pacer88220]

oops 3x9x50 had typo.

[Huntsman27]

In 762x39 was the CZ bolt. which actually shoots decent.

Cant wait for next May for more prairie dog shooting out west. Now thats long range shooting fun. Forget shooting at something like deer, small targets and precision shooting is what its all about. Rich

[pacer88220]

Huntman never had that oppurtunity which even entered my mind my fault there. Would some day enjoy the pararie dog and possibly sheep hunting and pronghorn.
Watched cabela's on on oln last night and they were caribou hunting. .300 win. Body shot at almost 300 yards dropped him in his tracks great shot but left me wondering a few things for this post.
But decided to keep it to myself to many shooters hear to hear my thoughts. You all be good I am going wandering thru the brush with my muzzle loader.
At least it seems to be able to effectively kill with the shots I take, lol.
Practice practice and patience

[pacer88220]

Skibum shock period kills. Agreed'
Would like to think hydrostatic shock as you first pointed out as a comparison would kill the gel or water effectively. Though seeing I never hunted either the water or gel not sure.
I stated shock kills nothing more nothing less.
With that said seems a few people took it a little farther.
MY aimming point is always going to be head or neck preiod hate chasing the deer any farther then I have to And certainly dont want it shoot several more times with someones else's gun becuase I hit in in the body and it wasnt a good nuff shoot to drop it in the beginning.
Listen to what others have posted how far their body hit deer went. I have dropped deer I shoot in the body but come on do need to hunt with my 8mm because it does drop them.
The shot taken on that deer was at a very long range I aimed center of his face as he was looking at me and squeezed. The round hit him center of the brisket just as planning. Also to note the damage done to the meat I created a hole you could fit your fist through in the brisket and his guts went out his ass.
Great gun to much damage small cals less damage less mess for me.

[Bwana]

Skibum shock period kills. Agreed'
Would like to think hydrostatic shock as you first pointed out as a comparison would kill the gel or water effectively. Though seeing I never hunted either the water or gel not sure.

I stated shock kills nothing more nothing less.
There is a great debate as to how much shock actually leads to the death of animals. To use your theory, a 22-250 hopped up would kill a Cape Buffalo, Brown Bear or an Elephant because it has huge amounts of kinetic energy. Not going to happen my friend. All that energy would be wasted before it made it through the bone or the fat (in the case of the Bear). If you look at more practical animals the Zebra and Wildebeast, who have incredibly slow nervous systems and will not succomb to shock. Elk, who are havily muscled animals do not react well to "shock" from lesser calibers. However, if you take a tough round such as an X Bullet (Grand Slam; Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, etc...), or a Solid on the Dangerous Game, and place it through the vitals in the chest you will have a dead animal....always.

A head shot or a spine shot at any great distance is an irresponsible shot to take if you care anything about the prey you seek.

[pacer88220]

Bwana true but hey cant have it all can you? We are talking deer here as well if a cape buffalo moves in from mid of nowhere bet my 1917 or the 8mm will drop him same as the bear. Yes I love small cals for deer but not for bigger animals.
Crappie John only you can effectively answer that ?. How you may ask spend time shooting it. It's not a large caliber gun so expect to give a little time being effective with it. 100 yard shoots are not that hard to make with it. Very reasonable entirely.
If you need help gainning skills or a place to shoot it if around midland area let me know.
Dont let these post's scare you away from it but learn the rifle. It has as many flaws as the next one out there but does shoot flat and easily carried.
Also Crappie who made it bolt, auto, or?

[pacer88220]

Last thing said and I am leaving this post alone.
Skibum ever think about all the gut shoot deer out there for the same reason posted for me taking a head shot?
Bet there's more then I can imagine let alone miss in a lifetime with my car.

[Huntsman27]

With the Nosler 180 ballistic tips I hand loaded. The M-48s I have shoot great. Surplus ammo can be had for a song. [Im so cheap I save the cases for scrap brass because their Berdan primed]. 4.00 a bandolier of 70 rounds at the gun shows I set-up at. Im over in Grand Rapids this weekend, or Id be deer hunting.

I think an observation of small calibers that killed large dangerous game would be the exploits of Karamojo[Sp?] Bell of killing elephant with a punny [haha] 7x57 Mauser. Also the 30-06 and 303 British [head shots]. Certainly not elephant or dangerous game calibers but they work when used by an expirienced shooter [as Pacer has pointed out] I think that the hydrostatic shock and similar formulas [Taylor KO theory] as a bit of over rated hogwash. Paper ballistics are just that, paper.

Elmer Keith was a great fan of the heavy and slow bullets [with the exception of the 333 OKH]. On the flip side you had Jack O`connor and the fast and light crowd [270 etc.] Each works withing the parameters you set forth. Distance of shot youll take, bullet selected, and shot placement.

Just my 2 cents on that, Rich

[Bwana]

Bwana true but hey cant have it all can you? We are talking deer here as well if a cape buffalo moves in from mid of nowhere bet my 1917 or the 8mm will drop him same as the bear. Yes I love small cals for deer but not for bigger animals.
.375HH is the minimum allowed by law for Dangerous game in most if not all African countries. No 8MM's need apply;) . I just get tired of some people who will work up a mathimatical formula on paper and immediately be an expert; like energy table "experts"s. You apparently acknowledge that there is more to it than energy on some animals and I now better understand your position.

[Bwana]

I think an observation of small calibers that killed large dangerous game would be the exploits of Karamojo[Sp?] Bell of killing elephant with a punny [haha] 7x57 Mauser. Also the 30-06 and 303 British [head shots]. Certainly not elephant or dangerous game calibers but they work when used by an expirienced shooter [as Pacer has pointed out] I think that the hydrostatic shock and similar formulas [Taylor KO theory] as a bit of over rated hogwash. Paper ballistics are just that, paper.

Elmer Keith was a great fan of the heavy and slow bullets [with the exception of the 333 OKH]. On the flip side you had Jack O`connor and the fast and light crowd [270 etc.] Each works withing the parameters you set forth. Distance of shot youll take, bullet selected, and shot placement.
Karamojo bell used primarily a .25 caliber rifle loaded with solids to kill elephants. He used the "pro only behind the ear" brain shot from approx. 20 yards away and it worked magic. He also used to shoot Guinnie fowl (kinda like grouse) with a .22 rifle..........no bull*****......he had skills beyond most of his time and today.

There are now legal minimums for hunting Dangerous Game over there as too many people were getting killed trying to kill Lions with 30-06's and elephants with other types of inadequate rounds for the type of prey.

[Ed Michrina]

I'd rather be shot with a 22 type of projectile @ 300 yards than hyper speed heavy projectile :eek: At least at that range a small twig might give me a chance. I'm no expert. but If a guy was hunting me, I'd be scared as heck with a super fast super accurate speedy 22 cal. , but Id sh** my pants if the guy had an equally accurate 30-06 ect or better. It may be just me but in my odds there are more things that can go wrong with the light rounds. (brush , wind , rain ect.)

Kill them with what you want. Just make sure your with in your limits.

PS If I were inside a house and the bad guy has a 223 or 454 ect They would both scare me equally.... Know your limits. Good hunting all.

[Huntsman27]

25 caliber your talking about? I know a lot of old 318s were used but Im not sure of this 25. Something like the 25 Rook? Rich

[Crappie John]

I am a avid small game hunter so long range shots aren't a problem but I avoid them. I take vital shots on woodchucks, squirrels AND coyotes with a .22 long at its max range of 75 yds. I have also done this for about 4 years now. The .223 gun would be a single shot break open with a fairly high power scope and I would replace my .22 LR with the .223 for hunting woodchucks & coyotes with this gun and I would also like to have it as a deer rifle. If a .17HMR can drop a coyote why would a .223 have trouble taking a deer? I wouldn't take a shot unless I know its gonna take the animal down for sure.
I am also trying to save money by buying a gun for all my needs because any higher than a .223 would be over kill for only 20 acres, I was also looking into a M1 .30 carbine for a deer rifle also, this would also work for woodchucks but pricy for its rounds.

[Huntsman27]

As for the 22 Long rifle Ive used that for prairie dogs out to 237 yards, and many have shot them farther than that. Its fun to shoot and with billions shot each year nothing else comes close to the amount shot each year.

As for your 223 yes it would work if its all you have [Id use the Barnes or Nosler Partition].

The 30 Carbine isnt a very good choice for deer, but, again if its all you have it would work, but you still have some downfalls to work with. First the factory loadings are 110 gr ball [or full metal jacket if you will] this isnt a good choice as at avertised 1900fps it isnt going to expand leaving a small wound channel. Second is the jacketed soft point. Again, at 1900fps, reliable expansion and bullet integrity are questionable if striking a bone it may frag and just wound your deer. These bullets have low ballistic co-efficients and only retain about 600 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards [short range application] Most experts agree on the 1000 ft lbs minimum at the yardage you will be using it. The 30 Carbine comes in at 970 at the muzzle.

Now, Im sure theres deer taken with 357s and others [with heavier than 110 gr bullets] that dont meet these specs too. However, You might just try a 243 because its a great varmint/deer gun and Ive used it extensively [among others] on both varmints and deer. We do a lot of woodchuck shooting here in Genesee and Shiawassee counties. The point being if you load your own shells you can tailor it to your game. When coyotes or fox are the game a Hornady FMJ is the ticket for saving the pelts. For woodchucks we use the 70gr Ballistic tips, or the Speer 70gr TNT hollow points.

I do like the 223s also and we do use them out west [besides my Daughter likes a lot of trigger time and the 223s are cheap to shoot] As long as its not blowing 30mph [as it does most days out there, then we use the larger guns, 243,25-06,270,308 and others] Rich

[deerslayer#1]

Shot placement!! If you can shoot, 223 is just fine out to 200yards.
I have shot lots of deer with a 22-250, never lost any. Good bullets are made,
that do a lot of damage. Clean a deer that has been hit by one of those little bullets, and see for yourself. Just do your part and practice.

[Frantz]

I have used a .270 for several years. Last year i got a nice little Savage .223 with a decent scope, dialed it all in and openeing morning just after shooting hours took a solid shot on a nice buck. I got lucky and found the buck laying dead in the firebreakabout 75 yards away,there was a little blood where I shot and some blood on the ground a few feet from where he ran, then nothing. I got solid heart and one lung and the hole was so small no blood would come out. I now have a nice Savage .223 fr sale, dead on but lousy for anything of size.

[Huntsman27]

So then you did yours. Pretty simple to see it worked. What most of us had said through that thread was IT IS NOT our first choice but can work if the proper ammo is used by a decent shooter. Rich

[Frantz]

Shot placement!! If you can shoot, 223 is just fine out to 200yards.
I have shot lots of deer with a 22-250, never lost any. Good bullets are made,
that do a lot of damage. Clean a deer that has been hit by one of those little bullets, and see for yourself. Just do your part and practice.

Shot placement is number one, but size does matter as well. I know of people who have been stupid enough in my younger years to shoot deer in the neck with a .22 stinger, good shot placement brought it down, but does not make the choice an intelligent or responsible hunting decision.

[Huntsman27]

22 Long rifle ammo would fall under illegal ammo for deer hunting. Any moron that shoots a deer with a .22 [unless it was survival] should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Rich

[deerslayer#1]

22 stinger in the neck is not good shot placement!! Question was about 223 rounds, wich in no way compares to a 22 stinger. But im sure a 223 in the neck would do just fine with ammo on the market, if YOU or YOUR friends think a neck shot is good shot placement that is.

[deerslayer#1]

how much for the 223? Im always looking for a good deal.

[Frantz]

I know of people who have been stupid enough in my younger years

I requote the important part of the post, I know of people and younger years. As for neck being good shot placement, I beleive 100% that it is. I have shot a number of deer i nthe neck with my .270 and with my dads old .35 over the years. I actually beleive it is a more efficient and humane shot as it dispatches the animal without delay and I have yet to see a deer I have shot in the neck not drop instantly.

But again, I think the .223 is to small of a round for deer in Michigan.

[deerslayer#1]

Yes your right, a neck shot is good if thats what you have to shoot at, I agree.
I personally try for the vitals in the body, I guess because it works and a little more area to hit. But how much for that 223? A good deal on a DEER gun is what I'm looking for, all this bull about bullets and shots forget that , make me a deal!!

[pacer88220]

O.k I know I will hear it now but hey it happens.
How much you want for the .223 or consider trades. P.M me highly interested.

[Frantz]

I will PM you both tomorrow after I take a couple pics of it for you. WARNING, it has a hair trigger, and I do mean hair. It is not for the light of heart or those who tend to lack thought. And I am not implying either of you are, just letting you know.

[Swamp Monster]

WARNING, it has a hair trigger, and I do mean hair. It is not for the light of heart or those who tend to lack thought.

And it is not a deer gun either! :D

[pacer88220]

Hey wanna try a lil shooting contest next year during deer season. You use whatever rifle you feel fit I'll use the .243 or FRANTZ .223. Not only do I strongly believe I am more then capable of humanely and quickly killing deer with the rifles I mentioned I will even put a wager on it. Thought's?

[deerslayer#1]

I agree with 22 centerfire rounds for hunting, but I think youre a little off wanting to make a wager on target practicing on deer. You probably just opened yourself to a lot of what you probably have coming. Good luck!! Oh, if youre serious about wagers at a range with your 243 or 223, against what somebody else shoots at deer, I'm betting you might have it coming there too. Best of luck!!

[Huntsman27]

at the STARTING distance of 500 yards, and youd better put the toy guns away. One of the DCM shooters had a name for the 223s, called them sub-caliber training devices I believe.

Have to say though most Savage and Rems will easily shoot under an inch at 100 yards. But we like them all in one hole.

Id have to say, One guy brings a Benchrest gun out, you may as well leave your money on the table. Rich

[Frantz]

Accuracy is not at all an issue or a debate for that matter. I would be happy to put my Savage up against another rifle on paper, the problem is with the size of the in and outbound holes made by the caliber overall. In my eyes it is just to small to be used in an efficient way. I have taken down several coyotes with this same rifle, and were it not for the lighter weight and semi auto feature of my Remington 597 .22 mag, I would still use my savage on coyotes, but never again for deer, for the deer, I will stick with my .270.

[Huntsman27]

If your shooting deer with a 22 mag there Bud, thats illegal and I have no use for violators. Rich

[Swamp Monster]

Pacer, as I have said before...this isn't about accuracy. You know full well a .22 rimfire fired accurately will quickly dispatch a deer. It's about the ability of the bullet to get to the vitals and do enough damage. I don't care how good a shot you are, I don't care what kind of experience you have blah blah blah. It's a matter of physics. Energy figures do not kill, bullet damage does. With the right bullet, those .22 centerfires will certainly handle the job. Unfortunatley I'm a realist and am pretty confident that a good many deer hunters out there don't know what a Barnes or Nosler partition bullet are even, let alone know that those are the bullets they should be using in such calibers. I see it yearly at public sight in days...guys with V-max bullets or varmit hollow points.....they are clueless most times and it's always the same excuse, my buddy uses them etc. How many of these guys shoot a deer, go check for blood and don't find any within 15-20 yards and then give up? to damn many thats how many! That little .22 caliber pill may have turned the deers inside to mush but didn't exit snd the deer may have made it 100-150 yards before dropping, only to be left for the scavengers. Or maybe they hit a shoulder or the deer was quartering and the bullet makes an impressive flesh wound with lots of blood initialy but tapers off because the vitals are not hit?? Same consequence and it's unacceptable.
A contest on deer wouldn't be very fair and we'd both run out of licenses long before either of us missed I'm sure. I may not be olympic caliber, but I haven't missed a deer in 15 years with a gun and I doubt I ever will again to be honest....not bragging, but I know my guns and I know enough to pick shots I'm comfortable with, just like you. I just use a caliber meant for the job. As far as a paper target contest, no need really, paper dies rather easily, it's the deer I concerned with.
So agian, in the hands of someone that is very very good, the .223 is capable. I still don't think it is acceptable or ethical...atleast it's borderline ethical and I don't feel that 99% of the deer hunters out there are even remotely good enough to be using this cartridge. I stand by my comments that the .223 is not a deer cartridge and a rifle chambered for it is not a deer rifle.

[Frantz]

If your shooting deer with a 22 mag there Bud, thats illegal and I have no use for violators. Rich

Who said that? I am trying to find where anyone said they are using a .22 mag to deer hunt. If you are refering to me, then you need to read back one or two of my posts in this thread, my savage is a .223, I said I prefer the .22 mag for yotes and is all i would use the savage for was yotes and not deer as it (223) is too small a caliber.

[Huntsman27]

that was a fast clean up.

[Frantz]

I added, the words, "my savage" in there to make it clearer as you were obviously not grasping the point. I am not going to get into a bickering battle with you as it is pointless and your assumption on a good day is pathetic, insulting, and downright wrong.

Good day

[pacer88220]

Swamp just a little picking such as you did.

My shooting ability is what has, and will continue to put meat on the table not to mention the luck of having a deer walk in.
Merely tried to have you open your eyes a little to the fact that a responsible shooter can, and will be an effective hunter. My equipment gets treated with more care then joe blows. With that stated yes I agree I was arrogant on the ability I have possessed to shoot though maybe I am proud I spend time with my rifle.
With that said anyone wanting to shoot any rifle at a deer should spend time to get to know it. How many times have you seen last minute buyers get their rifle night before, and head to the woods. Too many here.
I have spent more in customizing my rifles each one of them to enhance their shooting ability, not appearance, then the base rifle I started with. I dont use shelf shell's, so I think that puts me damn close to bench rifles.
So with that stated I should also state my ability is never compromised for greed.
Should also state that my effectiveness is caused by my shooting time. The league I shoot with, and the class I'm in allows the 3x9x50 scope no trajectory, or range finder allowed, or I would have purchased one (read as expensive) But then if it were not for the league, and time spent in it I would probably feel as you do, and shoot a larger caliber to compensate for my time spent.
I dont and never will condone the "hunter" who shoots to kill but never seeks his prey. The kid down the road shot a doe during early bow season. I tracked it 2 days thru the roughest ###t I have ever been in to find it laying 3 miles from where it was shot. Yes I am very dedicated when it comes to hunting.
Fortunately I spend the time needed to place the shot's I feel comfortable with. Olympic grade shoot's are great.


if YOU pull the trigger be ready for the consequences.

[Swamp Monster]

Pacer, I agree with your last post and that was my point....guys buying deer rifles the night before the opener shouldn't be hunting, period! But since we know they are, they should buy a caliber that gives them some margin of error (and by some I mean very little as placement is everything regardless of caliber) Put that type of person with a .223 and we are asking for trouble. Thats my point. I'm also not saying that you condone not following up after the shot, but we know it happens as well....either by a lack of skill or just plain ignorance.

It's those ignorant ones that worry me, and you are not included in that bunch, but we probably both know a few that are!

[pacer88220]

Swamp with that we are in agreement. But in the fact it isnt a deer rifle I dont sorry. A responsible hunter such as crappie with time spent shooting, and growing comfortable with the rifle is what makes it a deer rifle. That and knowing it's limitation's
But then hey you agreed with that point given also, so I guess I end this arguement, and post with this---
If YOU shoot small cals shoot them well, and spend alot of time with it before going for deer.
Speaking of which hey coyotes make excellent targets to get to know the rifle with, and well it's coyote season till spring. Plenty of time to get ready. Seeing private lands the season runs a lil longer.



If you pull the trigger be aware of the consequences.......

[rzdrmh]

we can spew all the rhetoric about practice, etc. we can talk ballistics, etc.

there will never be room at my camp for a .223, regardless of ability. (btw, i do own a .223 and love it. its great on woodchucks, coyotes, etc.)

if you miss judge 1 out of 100 times, and injure a deer, i couldn't help but blame it on the gun, right or wrong.. its too marginal, especially with such better options out there.. ok to challenge yourself on the range. ok for varmits, that can be killed much easier than deer.

there's a mountain of data and public opinion on my side. this is one of those arguments that shouldn't be argued. if you know you can do it, do it, but don't go out seeking approval, cause its not coming, by me, or by 99.9% of other hunters.

i, for one, am ready for this thread to be closed.

[Neal]

i, for one, am ready for this thread to be closed.

Me Too ;)