I need your help......Listen to this.

[ABA]

The situation:

I have a friend who has permission to bow hunt 30 acres of private land in Southern Michigan. He is not the only person given permission to bow hunt on this land. One other hunter was given permission as well. A large buck has been seen on and around this land, crossing near the owner’s house. The other hunter has placed his stand shortly behind the owner’s house in an attempt to get this buck. My friend has placed his stand further back into the woods.

Here is the problem:

While entering the woods a few weeks back my friend put his bow down in the trail and walked the 20 yards over to the other guy's stand to take a look at some huge fresh buck rubs. At which time he noticed the MDNR coming through the woods from the neighbor’s house. The MDNR gave him a ticket for hunting within 150 yards of another residence. Even though the stand was located on the property he had permission to hunt and he was not hunting in it. The DNR had to use a range finder because the stand was very close to 150 and the DNR claims this stand is 132 yards. My friend explained to him that this was not his stand and that his Bow was lying down in the trail over there, etc etc. The DNR told him that if he walks within 150 yards of another’s home with Bow in hand he is illegal unless he obtains permission from that person. So therefore he was in violation the minute he got out of his car with his bow in hand since the two homes are closer than 150 yards. For those wondering he did not have an arrow knocked. The DNR told him that he had tried to catch him in there for a week because the Neighbors were anti hunters and made a complaint.

This really bothers me because my hunting land is a similar situation. I have two neighbors with in 150 yards of our hunting cabin yet I hunt nowhere near their homes.

Think about this for a minute guys. If an anti hunter wants to limit you from hunting all he has to do is place a house up with in 150 yards of your house, hunting cabin etc and they can now stop you from holding any form of firearm on your own property, practicing with your bow, or hunting your own land if it is within 150 yards of theirs. What is Anti hunters start lobbying your neighbors to join some statewide hunting stoppage? Think about it hard.

The law states my friend MUST appear in court regardless if he wants to fight this or not. I have convinced him to fight.

Here is where I need your help:

Help us think of any way he can beat this ticket, help me find the MDNR definition of the word Bow Hunting. I am thinking we should argue he was not hunting because A) he did not have his bow in his hand at the time. B) He was not yet on stand. C) did not have an arrow knocked. D) the stand in question that the neighbor complained about was not his stand.

[drwink]

agree this sucks. We can 10 acre parcel our selves out of hunting with the 450 foot rule.
However I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't think that if you had not had an arrow knocked you wouldn't be considered hunting. Just as though if your gun wasn't loaded and you were coming in or going out to the stand, you were just enroute.
I think its the other guy they were after & not you. Can the MDNR officer prove you were hunting that tree stand ? Are your finger prints on it ? assuming it does have a name & address on it right that shows its not yours ?
Did the officers acknowledge you didn't have your bow in yor hand ?
Do they have photo's of you hunting ?
I don't think this would hold up myself.
I think its to close for a range finder, I would get an accurate measurement.
Sounds like harrassment to me.
Maybe you should call Fred Trost to represent you :lol:

Good luck

[Banditto]

Well private or public land, the owner of the stand has to have his name inscribed on the bottom of the stand, as do you. You should have pointed out that your name is not the one on the stand in question. And your name is on your stand further back.

As for walking near a residence I have never heard that. There are law enforcement officers that are uninformed on what the laws truely mean and the tickets have to be fought in court for 2 purposes, 1) to get out of trouble and 2) to inform the officer on the true meaning and purpose of the law.

[Big Frank 25]

I'm guessing you need to keep it cased or unstrung till you get outside 400' http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10919_11749-31579--,00.html

[TrailFndr]

from the Hunting Guide book....


Safety Zones Around Buildings

Safety zones are all areas within 150 yards (450 feet) of an occupied building, house, cabin, or any barn or other building used in a farm operation. No person, including archery and crossbow hunters, may hunt or discharge a firearm, crossbow or bow in a safety zone, or shoot at any wild animal or wild bird within a safety zone, without the written permission of the owner or occupant of such safety zone. The safety zone applies to hunting only. It does not apply to indoor or outdoor shooting ranges, target shooting, law enforcement activities or the discharge of firearms, crossbows or bows for any non-hunting purpose.

[Joe Archer]

The difference would be in the terms "transporting" vs. "hunting". It is illegal to hunt past 1/2 hour after sunset but we can legally "transport" our bows at this time. Your friend had permission to hunt from the land owner. If he had written permission he could hunt out of the window of his cabin. Get written permission from the owner to take with you to court and say that you were transporting your bow. Law is, and should be common sense. It is not the intent to limit you from hunting on your property because your neighbow has a dwelling near your property line. The judge should throw this one out. <----<<<

[drwink]

agree with Joe Archer on this one.

Big Franks post is for transporting in a motor vehicle only & Trailfinders post is for hunting, but you were actually scouting at the time. You laid your bow down to walk over & check out some rubs.
MDNR writes a lot of tickets they shouldn't from what I understand.
You may want to get out there with a camera & a 100' tape measure & get some photo's in your own defense.
Take some photo' of the area. The place where you laid your bow down, a view of the tree stand from where you laid your bow down, a photo of the rubs & the tree stand in question if its still there, even one with hopefully the other guy's name on the stand.

Good Luck with this, keep us posted on how you make out.

[TrailFndr]

My post was simply to show what the book says about the 450 ft rule. nothing more, nor less. In my opinion, from what was said originally, he was not hunting. He was simply travelling to a hunting site. There is nothing that I have found that says you can not carry your bow inside of that zone as long as you have permission of the owner of the property that you are on.


Unfortunatly, the officers that ticketed him, were simply doing thier job having to go to court over it is an unfortunate thing, but I would hope will be a simply move to clarify the laws that govern this incedent.

[boehr]

I was starting to believe the story until this part; The DNR told him that he had tried to catch him in there for a week because the Neighbors were anti hunters and made a complaint. That anti bit is where it changed my mind because I don't believe that a CO would have said that. There is more to this story here than what is posted is my belief.

[Zakker]

DNR SUCKS!! Too bad they cannot manage the deer herd as well as they can nitpick law abiiding hunters.

First off, the moron that wrote the ticket was not doing his/her job! It's sounds like some "overachieving" to me. To me, there are many "grey" areas in this and each officer SHOULD use discretion before issuing tickets!! In this sense, the guy was NOT discharging the "weapon", let alone in possesion, so the ticket should be dismissed. In addtion to this, a formal greivance should be filed against this officer with his/her superiors to drive home the point of using "responsible discretion". I am afraid with some officers, "give em' a badge and they think they are God"!!! Keep in mind, they all are not like this, as a couple of them are friends of mine that do use common sense.

My .02 worth :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

[JasonG]

Zakker

Just to let you know if you did not before, but boehr is a CO. Not saying that you can not voice your opinion but to paint all Co's with a broad brush is not right.

[FISHIN 2]

I read this post and was appalled at this situation. To most hunters, with respect to the DNR officers, feel that when a LANDOWNER signs your permission slip you should be able to hunt on this property within 150' of a building. But you are still liable in any instance if any thing goes wrong. Most landowners will tell you how far away from their building to hunt or some say"I've seen that big buck layin behind the barn everyday this week, look over there", so in that case the landowner would be at fault also? Not ! I think this is an open and shut case.. " QUOTA'S "

[ABA]

Let me clear up some misconceptions here.

First my friend is a good guy, law abiding and a bit young. He rifle hunts with me and I have bow hunted with him on the above-mentioned property in the past and would like to again in the future. I know the land owner of this land and he is currently fighting with his neighbors over this.

I was starting to believe the story until this part; The DNR told him that he had tried to catch him in there for a week because the Neighbors were anti hunters and made a complaint. That anti bit is where it changed my mind because I don't believe that a CO would have said that. There is more to this story here than what is posted is my belief.

Not only did the DNR officer tell him this but he told me the same thing as well. I have since called and verified the entire story with the DNR officer. He also told me the only reason he ticketed him was that the adjacent land owner wanted to press charges and continued to press the issue because he did not like or want anyone hunting near his property. He officer said to me "you know how non-hunters can be". He explained that he instructed my friend that the tree stand had to be removed immediately and we have notified the rightful owner to do so. I do not know if he has or has not moved the stand.

The DNR officer also told me that he felt he was being nice by only ticketing him because he could have confiscated his bow and the stand. I asked him how this is possible since he was not in the stand in question and what is wrong with putting a stand up with in 150 yards of another’s home as long as your not hunting it and its on your property. He stated the stand was placed up for the purpose of hunting and he would no longer discuss the issue with me. Then he added his hands were tied he had to issue a ticket because the neighbors complained. To our knowledge NO ONE had actually even hunted the stand in question.

[Banditto]

Well like I said early ABA as long as your buddy had his name on his stand, and the other guy had his name on the stand in question I believe he has a chance of getting the judge to rule on his side. If there are no names on stands I believe he is out of luck.

What district was this?

[Zakker]

Zakker

Just to let you know if you did not before, but boehr is a CO. Not saying that you can not voice your opinion but to paint all Co's with a broad brush is not right.

No problem, as I stated,"Keep in mind, they all are not like this, as a couple of them are friends of mine that do use common sense", not all officers are that way. I guess I may have got a little over zeolous on the subject out of pur frustration. No harm or disrespect is meant to boehr whatsoever. I just believe, in any law enforcement, there are good cops and bad cops. The bad ones do not use good discretion and/or consider the rights of people. The good ones go without saying. To go further, boehr and many others may or may not have handled the situation the same way. With that, I think I previously differentiated what I meant and did not mean to "broadbrush" every CO.

My frustration with the DNR lies deeper with the "sucks" thing, and I am sorry if I offended. I am simply tired of seeing the decline in the deer population in my area year after year. That comment should have went to a different thread.

No disrespect meant to any of the good conservation officers out there.

[Ranger Ray]

Where is the ethics and honesty of the other hunter? He should go to court with your friend and explain it was his to the judge. The persons property your friend hunts on should be able to hook the 2 up.

[sporty]

I've read several of the comments regarding the action of the Michigan D.N.R. law enforcement officer. Just a suggestion to those who appear to be upset is to look at the laws and why it is enforced. People have created these laws to come about by tresspassing and careless/reckless use weapons. Now depending on the situation and which officer arrives on the scene to investigate, the handeling of the incident may be a verbal warning or citation issued. Another thing to look at was the caller/complainant a pain in the "ASS" demanding action be taken by the agency and the officer issued the citation knowing the prosecutor's office would review the complaint and dismiss it.
The situation will remain unknown to all of us because we weren't there but the sad thing involving law enforcement is the very top management, these are the people who create the problems by demanding statics for the purpose to increase the budget or obtain federal grant money. As for the officers in any agency they are just doing there job like anyone else but it is a that is and will aways be damn you do and don't.

[Byron]

LOTS of misinformation in this thread.

- The safety zone does not apply to target shooting or practice, only hunting.

- The requirement for a gun or bow to be cased or unstrung applies to transport in or upon a motor vehicle, not by hand in the field. There is no law that says where you can or cannot carry an unloaded firearm or bow without a nocked arrow on private property, provided you are not trespassing.

- It is ABSOLUTELY NOT REQUIRED that you have your name on a treestand on private property.

- The intent of the safety zone law is exactly to prevent you from hunting near your neighbor's house while still on your own property. It is a uniform safety rule, applicable to all occupied dwellings, your property or not. Written permission is required if you want to hunt within 450' of any other house.

My advice: now that the ticket is issued, it is too late to fight it alone. If he wants to beat it, tell him to get a lawyer! He should have no problem beating this charge if his story is anything near the truth.

Best Regards,
Byron

[Rudi's Dad]

First, I would get my ducks in a row, signed permission slip and photo the tree stand in question and if the other mans name was on the stand photo that. Then photo your blind and document all you can. Then call and try to talk to the warden's supervisor and ask if you can meet him in the field to go over this. Doubtful, but there may be some wiggle room, remember a good boss sticks up (to a point) for his employee. You have to be VERY polite and open and let them see that there may be a way around you being in the wrong. (assuming your facts are correct) Otherwise pay the fine and carry the bow in a case to your stand. Over 450ft from bldgs.

[boehr]

LOTS of misinformation in this thread.

- The safety zone does not apply to target shooting or practice, only hunting.

- The requirement for a gun or bow to be cased or unstrung applies to transport in or upon a motor vehicle, not by hand in the field. There is no law that says where you can or cannot carry an unloaded firearm or bow without a nocked arrow on private property, provided you are not trespassing.

- It is ABSOLUTELY NOT REQUIRED that you have your name on a treestand on private property.

- The intent of the safety zone law is exactly to prevent you from hunting near your neighbor's house while still on your own property. It is a uniform safety rule, applicable to all occupied dwellings, your property or not. Written permission is required if you want to hunt within 450' of any other house.

My advice: now that the ticket is issued, it is too late to fight it alone. If he wants to beat it, tell him to get a lawyer! He should have no problem beating this charge if his story is anything near the truth.

Best Regards,
Byron

Very well stated Byron.

[Big Frank 25]

Byron, for ABA to continue to hunt the property was my objective! You offer no solution for ABA to continue hunting this land without harassment. Carry it cased! That is mine. What's yours?

[part timer]

The law from the DNR regulations states:


Safety zones are all areas within 150 yards (450 feet) of an occupied building, house, cabin, or any barn or other building used in a farm operation. No person, including archery and crossbow hunters, may hunt or discharge a firearm, crossbow or bow in a safety zone, or shoot at any wild animal or wild bird within a safety zone, without the written permission of the owner or occupant of such safety zone. The safety zone applies to hunting only. It does not apply to indoor or outdoor shooting ranges, target shooting, law enforcement activities or the discharge of firearms, crossbows or bows for any non-hunting purpose.

There is no explicit restriction about carrying your gun/bow into the field. For some reason the CO must have believed your friend was actively hunting. It seems he has two choices: 1) pay the fine or 2) tell his story to the judge.

BTW: In my personal experience I've always found COs to be rational, courteous and professional.