Looking For Encouragement!

[Sam22]

I was recently informed that my camp (1200 acres in NE MI), will be adopting and 8pt or better rule this year. I know it has to be done, and I support the idea. I have my worries though. The doe population is way down due to the nearly unrestricted harvest since the whole TB scare. This is a big camp, alot of people must continue to attend and participate for it to perpetuate itself, if some guys back out due to the decision, I dunno that it will make it long enough to see the pay off. On top of that, I didn't hear of this until today. I have been letting does walk by lately, knowing anticipating the family harvest at camp. Now I am out for the first big brown one up here to fill the freezer. I know it is all for the better, but I could use a few cyber-pats on my back!! :grouphug:

[wild bill]

wait it out a couple years and it will be worth it.

where at in NE area?

[Whit1]

This is a big camp, alot of people must continue to attend and participate for it to perpetuate itself, if some guys back out due to the decision, I dunno that it will make it long enough to see the pay off. :grouphug:
Not to encourage the breakup of a longstanding deer camp, but I would suspect that if some members left due to the new policy, others could quickly be found to replace them. I can think of one hunter who would be thrilled to join (nope, 'tis not I...:) )

As for taking does when their numbers are way down, that becomes a personal choice. I can only relate what I would do if found to be in a similar position, and that would be not to shoot does. However, relating what I would do is a useless gesture because I'm not walking in your hunting boots.

[Luv2hunteup]

I don't think you and your fellow members will be disappointed with your groups newly adopted rules. It does take time to improve average age structure.

As for improving deer numbers now is the time to improve your habitat while deer numbers are low. Low deer numbers will allow for for improvements to take hold.

If you are not seeing many does the solution is simple don't shoot them. With habitat improvements your numbers will syrocet.

[stick bow]

Sam, I'm in the same boat. I purchased 60 acres on the Presque Isle Cheboygan border, I have seen 1 deer (doe) on my property since last January when I purchased it. I said that I would never hunt over bait again, and I am sticking to it. I set a six/eight point or better harvest rule for my property (to start) and I am sticking to that too. I have established one small food plot and can't wait until spring to establish more. I seem to be having more fun with a chain saw and a broadcast spreader then I do with a bow or a rifle. I know that in a few short years I will have success stories like some of the others on this forum. We have to start somewhere if we want to see the type of bucks that we all hope to see. QDM is a bitter pill to swallow at first, but I am counting on great returns. If the hunt club doesn't work out there is a 60 next to mine that is for sale, I have enough encouragement for the both of us. Good luck. ;)

[Ed Spin04]

Sam 22;

Do not worry about the chance that the club will lose members. This is a real subject and many times clubs will lose even long time members, with the decision to start managing their deer. So, what to do? You will find more hunters to fill any empty spots if they appear than the ones who threaten to leave. The newhunters if it comes to that, you will find, are right on message to be deer managers. The ones that leave sometimes have a history of gribing and perhaps not a lost after all.

This is not a joyous time for your club, but I encourage you to stay the course and trust in the right thing to do. Your club needs to look at the complete picture of managing deer and habitat. Your club has enough acreage to make something happen. It would be in your clubs interest to involve the neighbors around you in the idea. Create save areas near the center of the property, create the main feeding plots near the center of the property, even put feed plots in the save areas, create a long term timber management program if one has not been started, soil test any potential food plot locations this year and bring the locations selected to top notch nutrition levels, plant a variety of plants for year round nutrition and keep records of all deer taken yearly. There is more, like having all members join the QDMA to deveope a like mind set and other educational endeavors.

Good luck to you Sam 22 and your club. All will find a new interest in their club and will anticipate positve results. This will happen but only if it is done right with high standards and high standards it appears to be at this time, with eight points or better.

One more point of interest. I belonged to a club for 20 years in Roscommon County, (Mid Michigan Lodge) with 18,000 acres and 400 menbers. I left in 1994 but am still envloved in their deer management program and members. This number of members makes it diffcult to make anything happen as anyone can see. Yet over several years they went from anything goes except taking does and minimum timber management. They eventually accepted taking a few does and protecting spikes and from just a few acres of rye to now taking many does, 300 acres of a variety of food plots and a minimum six point rule. You now couldn't get that club to go back to their old ways for any amount of money for they are seeing an actual increase of bucks being taken over their old buck harvest average and taking older and bigger bucks and many does. "Yes Patricia there is a Santa Claus and his name is Quality Deer (probably with a red nose) Management". Many do not believe that this is possible, "How can anyone take more bucks, when at the same time they are protecting a sizeable number of bucks, and taking sacred does"? Elementary my dear Watson! A healthy and balanced deer herd is a productive herd and this means many more fawns per adult doe than the historic average fawn production. Remember half of these fawns (that are greater in number even with less does) are male and therein is the answer to this mystery.

[NorthJeff]

Your age structure improvements will be noticable very quickly, as well as an increase in rutting activity..scrapes, rubs, chasing, fighting, grunting, etc. Next year you should notice a little jump, but the following years should be great...it doesn't really take too long and on 1200 acres, together with sanctuary areas, good hunting methods, and a sound habitat management program you will really enjoy the property in just a short period.

Good Luck and have fun!!

[Happy Hunter]

"How can anyone take more bucks, when at the same time they are protecting a sizeable number of bucks, and taking sacred does"? Elementary my dear Watson! A healthy and balanced deer herd is a productive herd and this means many more fawns per adult doe than the historic average fawn production. Remember half of these fawns (that are greater in number even with less does) are male and therein is the answer to this mystery."

but reality is that if you keep the herd stable and simply replace adult doe with buck saved BY APR's , the number of BB produced declines rater than increasing. You can only improve recruitment if overpopulation is the limiting factor that controls recruitment rate . In the vast majority of deer habitat , over population is not the limiting factor that controls recruitment.

In PA we are in the third year of APR's and hunters are not reporting any increase in rutting activity. Personally i have seen fewer rubs and scrapes and no increase in 2.5+ buck in my area and statewide the buck harvest has decreased by 30%.
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[Ed Spin04]

Happy hunter :

Your statement is only partially correct. It is obvious that you have done some reading in deer biology, but perhaps you need to continue at it.

Many things influence recruitment rate, not just adjusting the overpopulation rate.

Many studies (George Reserve enclosure in Michigan, Professor Mc'Cullogh and Clemson University free ranginging deer study by Dr. David Guinn) show an increase in recruitment from having .5 fawns per adult doe survival rate to one year of age when deer densities are above100 deer per square mile to an ever increasing survival rate of over 2 yearling fawns per adult doe with a deer density of 10 per square mile. Happy hunter that's a four fold increase and it happened in the enclosure in Michigan as well as the free ranging study in South Carolina. Just by having less deer the stress drops and the successful birth rate increase's and continues to increase as deer density lowers. In very high deer densitues the birth rate can be as low as .3 fawns per adult doe. The above data fits into your point of overpopulatrion, affects fawn survival. Yes, you can have more fawns with less does.

Low deer density is not the only factor that influences fawn birth rate and fawn survival to one year of age (fawn recruitment). According to some studies an amazing three fawns per adult doe average can be possible with an overall intense sound deer management program and not necessarilly having a low deer density. When the buck to doe sex ratio is close to natural more (1: 1.5 - 1:2) most of the does get bred in their first estrus, ( a very good thing). This creates a maximum fawn birthing date at the same and right time, which greatly inhances the recruitment rate. This is called prey saturation, where the coyotes and other prey animals have a short time period to catch (within two- three weeks fawns can outrun coyotes) and they can just eat so many fawns. This is a major factor in fawn survival and eventually one year old recruitment. In Texas where there is a 5 month breeding period and subsequently 5 month birthing period. The fawn survival rate can be as low as .3 yearling fawns per adult doe. Thats a differance of an sevenfold survival rate increase survival rate that can be experienced in the northern states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan with a sound deer management program.

We are fortunate in that we can experience a fantastic recruitment rate if we do the right thing.

Happy Hunter, there is more biological info that will show an increase or decrease in fawn recruitment other than just population density or more natural sex ratio. Example, high grade nutrition available year round and a balanced age structure in the buck segment, where older age bucks are present and taking charge of the social system. I hope you have an open mind and research this area more .