Need a rifle suggestion - big bore lever or .30-06 bolt?

[Kodiak Hunter]

OK guys and gals, I've got one for ya.

I'm active duty U.S. Coast Guard, currently stationed in Kodiak, Alaska. Yeah, it's rough, but somebody has to do it. I'm originally from Traverse City. My favorite deer hunting rifle back home is my old (thanks, Grandpa!) Marlin .30-30 with Williams peep sight on it. Deadly accurate - love that gun.

I'm heading out for moose, black bear, and possibly grizzly over the next year or so, up here in Alaska. But next year, I will be leaving the state, heading back to the lower-48. So what I need will be a good multi-purpose gun that I can hunt with up here, AND hunt with back in the Great Lakes area (black bear and whitetails).

If you had to choose between the Marlin .45/70 Guide Gun (stainless/wood), or the Savage 110 (actually a 116 all-weather gun, stainless/synthetic) in .30-06, which one would you go for, and why?

I will never take a shot over 150 yards. I just don't do it.

Taking all that into consideration, which would you choose?

Thanks!
Andy
Kodiak, Alaska

[Hunt4Ever]

Bolt action, for me there isn't any question here. The one you have picked will work well. Synthetic stocks are light, easy to carry all day and are your best bet in wet weather. Alaska is going to be wet and wood swells. Bolt action accuracy is at the top of the list as far as actions go.

I am now a synthetic stock person for all my rifles. I still like a nice piece of wood on a O/U shotgun. My duck gun (A Super Black Eagle) is composite.

[Pinefarm]

Alaska? Big game? Close quarters? Griz? Having shot moose and grizzly myself, I certainly wouldn't suggest a 45/70. If you were to go with a guide, they probably wouldn't let you even take that gun to camp. A 30-06 is an option, but on the light end. Especially for griz, up close. And that's not to say you can't kill any of those animals with those guns, but you're starting from scratch and may as well do it right. Personally, I wouldn't go any lighter than a .300 mag and you're better off with a .338 or .375 HH. Back in the 1960's and 70's, my dad did a ton of grizzly hunting and shot 5 in his career. He spent a lot of time with the famed grizzly guide Clayton Mack who at one time had 3 bears in the top 10 B&C. My dad actually spent 2 seasons in BC hunting what Clayton called either a new world record of at least top 5. They had developed such a good friendship that Clayton called my dad up and told him that he had to plan to get to BC to hunt that bear. I had just been born and my dad was pretty broke, so he told Clayton he couldn't go. Clayton told him he didn't care about the money and wanted the right guy by his side to hunt that bear. So other than airfare, he wouldn't even take a tip from my dad to hunt the potential world record! He was a great guy. They never got or even saw the bear on the hunt, but got very close and found steaming cr@p and still bleeding salmon with the huge bears tracks over it in the Vietnam like forest of coastal BC. In that time, he was on a hunt in AK where his guide had to leave on an emergency because a neighboring guide had his head taken off by a wounded griz and the hunter was on the tent camp radio crying for help and they had to find him. Another time and guide, when my dad got to Alberta, the guide he was supposed to go out with was in the hospital because his ***** was gone, after he and a client stumbled on a bear on a moose kill that they didn't know was there. The bear attacked and basically ate his butt cheek! Ouch! And the guide I went with in BC, an older Clayton Mack, spent a year in the hospital after they spooked a sow with cubs. They tried to go around her, but the sow ambushed them a couple hundred yards downstream. In each incident, the bear was killed, but not before serious bodily harm. If doing much griz hunting, then I suggest the 375HH or the like.

[dinoday]

I agree with Bob. A 30/06 would do the job, but it's kind of light. I'd use the .300 Winchester Magnum. I've never hunted griz, but I have hunted moose. The local guys were using 30/06 handloads REALLY hot, and .300's.
An Alaskan moose can take quite a few rounds even with good shot placement before they fall.I would suggest at least a .44 Magnum for a side arm too. You don't want to meet old griz while quartering a moose. He WILL take it from you if you don't stop him :yikes: Have fun! I wish I was going!

[DEERSLAYER]

I wouldn't go with either. 300 mag would be my minimum, but a 338 or bigger would be better.

[dinoday]

.338 is probably better for Alaskan game.The .300 can be loaded down and make a fine whitetail and black bear gun for Michigan.My opinion.

[Kodiak Hunter]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I've already successfully hunted each species that I have mentioned (using .30-06), so I am not looking to get caliber suggestions other than the two I asked about.

In my personal opinion, the .300 and .338 are over-rated. Give me a gun I can enjoy shooting all day, not one I can only shoot a dozen or so rounds through. Also, the .30-06 is still the most popular gun in Alaska for big game hunting, and there is a reason for that.

I don't mean to sound ungreatful for your replies, or pissed, I'm just tired of hearing the "You've got to get a .300WM or a .338WM, otherwise you can't kill anything up there".

And don't knock the .45/70, it's the favorite of the Fish and Game guy in Cordova, as well as at least 3 or 4 Fish and Wildlife Troopers, all who have taken moose and bear (black and brown) with it. It's a great caliber.

It's called Magnumitis, and it IS cureable. ;)

[Randy Kidd]

I agree with you, The 45/70 will take ANY big game in the western hemisphere within 100 yards. Love that round. and the Marlin Guide Gun.

[Pinefarm]

Then use the 30-06 and get the best bullet possible. ;)
I thought you were going to buy a new gun, since you mentioned you use a 30-30 back here and you said "So what I need will be a good multi-purpose gun that I can hunt with up here, AND hunt with back in the Great Lakes area (black bear and whitetails)". I read it as you already have a 30-30. My bad, no biggie. But a .300 win... ;)

[Kodiak Hunter]

Thanks to everyone that replied. Game over - I bought the Savage! Heading out to shoot it right now (we finally have sunshine and no rain).

Thanks!

[DEERSLAYER]

You will be very happy with how the Savage shoots. Especially if you got the Accu-trigger. I know the 30-06 will easily take a big Griz, the only reason I mentioned a bigger gun is because if you pi$$ one off and he charges, you will want to have a gun that has a good chance to stop him in his tracks, and for that I would want more power and a big bore. Those ornery suckers have been know to wait in ambush if wounded and being tracked. If you decide later that you "need" :D ;) lever gun I would consider a 444Marlin. AWSOME close range stopping power and a good 150 yard deer gun.

[Swamp Monster]

Congrats on the new gun! If your'e going after coastal Grizzlies with an 06', your more of man than I am! :yikes: I'd be handloading up some hot rounds with 180 gr. or 200 gr. Barnes X bullets. I'd feel more comfortable with a lever in 45/70 loaded hot with cast bullets weighing in at 300gr. or heavier. It's a relatively short range proposition, but would handle anything that walks and bites back!

Feel free to share some of these Alaskan adventures with us!

[Kodiak Hunter]

Congrats on the new gun! If your'e going after coastal Grizzlies with an 06', your more of man than I am! :yikes: I'd be handloading up some hot rounds with 180 gr. or 200 gr. Barnes X bullets. I'd feel more comfortable with a lever in 45/70 loaded hot with cast bullets weighing in at 300gr. or heavier. It's a relatively short range proposition, but would handle anything that walks and bites back!

Feel free to share some of these Alaskan adventures with us!

Swamp, 2 years ago I hunted Kodiak brown bear with my 60# recurve bow. Only thing we saw was a sow and 2 cubs - not legal to shoot either - but believe me, my heart was racing every time I headed out into the field. I don't think it has anything to do with being brave, but everything to do with being stupid!!

Of course, my buddy with his 375H&H was beside me the entire time!

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Obviously most here haven't hunted bear with a 45/70. I'd take a 45/70 any day over a 30-06. Good choice KH! You can still get a lever action 45/70 in either 18" or 22" guide gun from marlin for just over $450 new. A 45/70 will put a bear down fast!

[kbkrause]

Because this kind of turned into a 45-70 discussion. I think Vince Lupo would disagree that 45-70 isnt a enough gun, with the correct ammo. He was the first to take the African Big 6 with the 45-70 lever gun. May not be the biggest most powerful gun, but is every one supposed to use a 416 Rigby?

[Pinefarm]

The debate isn't about that to me, I don't want to see another hunter, back up gun or guide get killed. The guide where I went said some of the locals only have a 30-30 and kill coastal grizzlies, because they're poor and it can be done with a perfect shot. A .22 may kill one with a perfect head shot. I shot my griz perfectly right through the chest and he still went 200 yards. Luckily in the other direction. My dad shot two of his bears within 25 yards, because the terrain is very thick. My dad's friend Don had one of his bears die about 10 yards infront of them as it charged from about 70 yards out. He shot the bear through the heart on the first shot, but the bear picked up the movement of Don bolting another shell and charged. Needless to say, Don and the guide pumped the bear with as much lead as possible, but he kept coming. He basically died at their feet. They were obviously kinda freaked out about the incident. So figure, depending on where you hunt, many coastal shots will be 15-80 yards. If hunting mountain griz, than a couple hundred yards is the measure. And mountain bears are much smaller. So a 30'06, 300 or 7mag is just perfect. As far as energy, why take the gun with 30-50% less energy than the other option, when dealing with grizzlies whom you can and should expect to charge when hit with the first round? These aren't little 200-300lb black bears with their head in a 50 gallon can as I sit above them in my treestand we're talking about. With black bears in that situtation, a pistol or bow is just fine. With a wounded grizz. the situation can get very dicey and very dangerous, very fast. With grizz, you don't sit in a stand, you get after them and go loking for them. Often, the bear is looking for you! You go looking for a fight and often, you find a bear that's looking for a fight too. Anyways, I'm not bad mouthing anyones gun. My buddy Jim uses a 45-70 at our deer camp. It's great for most everything. I've owned a couple 7mm Mausers (7x57) and have shot a bunch of deer with it. In the old days, guys on safari killed elephants with that gun. Sure, it can be done, but I would never suggest anyone try. The muzzle energy numbers are...
45/70--2182 ft lbs
30'06--2913 ft lbs
375HH--4262 ft lbs
Here's the whole chart comparing the three...
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp

Just for fun, I did a side by side with the 45-70, 375HH and 300 Weatherby, which I shot my bear with. I believe the guide's rules were that a 300 Winchester was the smallest gun he'd allow in camp. I think 3000 ft lb's was his camp minimum.
The 300 Weatherby has a very respectable 3890 ft lbs.
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp
Anyways, the 45-70 would be fine as long as you hit the grizz behind the shoulder, not through the shoulder. I was there when my dad shot his biggest grizz. It made B&C and weighed an estimated 1200 lbs and was like 10' squared. The bear had been shot before. Right in the meat of the 18" thick bicep. But it never went through into the chest. The guide said that lumber guys (there's big lumber camps all over coastal BC) always have guns with them and probably shot it with a 30-30 to scare it away. It's a pretty tough animal that when you use a 30-30 as a fly swatter! LOL
Good luck and I hope you get a crack at a decent bear. Like Fred says in the song "Fred Bear" at the end, there's nothing like hunting brown bear or grizzly bear.
On a side note, did anybody get a Baldwin area permit? I saw a small track in my two track a couple weeks ago. Probably a 2 year old roaming about. There's more and more bear by us every year. I'm letting my points build up. 10 years ago, I would have never imagined killing a black bear at our club. Now, I think it'd be a certainty. All I need is that damn tag! I think I have 4 points. Maybe I'll get one in 5 years? ;)

[Swamp Monster]

Bob, most factory 45-70 ammo is pretty enimic, due to all the black powder guns and others built on weaker actions on the market. Here is a link to some loads that will make the 06' look like a varmit rig! http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp I believe Cor Bon loads some monsters as well. And a handloader can do the same. Some of these loads have blown through both shoulders of both Cape Buffalo and Coastal Grizzlies when shots were taken at appropriate range...typical dangerous game range. And since these bullets are already close to the size of some expanded .30 caliber bullets, expansion isn't an issue, it's all about penetration. I would not go after grizzly or most black bear with your average standard 45/70 load (OK black bear I would with Winchesters .350gr. Partition Gold). Todays hot 45/70 loads are more than capable of filling the bill for a "stopping" rifle. And in a fast compact rifle, far easier to put into use for most folks than a 9-10 lb bolt gun. But, imo, if I'm being charged by a coastal grizzly, I would like my guide to be sitting behind a Browning .50 cal with plenty of ammo!!

I don't put a whole lot af stock in ftlbs really, it's more or less a number to compare rounds and since it squares velocity, faster rounds always look that much better on paper. Bullet design has far more to do with killing than ftlbs have. For example, the common recommendation for deer is 800-1000 ftlbs of energy, yet I have seen deer literaly knocked off there feet at ranges close to 100 yards with factory .44 mag ammo fired from a 6" barreled revolver. This load doesn't even match those energy levels at the muzzle let alone 100 yards, yet that heavy .429 caliber slugs polaxes em' when it impacts. Anyway, the ftlbs thing, KO figures etc are fit for another thread, I could babble a way for a page or two!


BTW,
Bob, I can't tell by the link, but I think the ballistics you quoted for the 45/70 Remington load with the 405 grain soft point bullet. That load is nothing more than a 100 yard deer load, I wouldn't even consider it for anything else....not because of the energy figures but because of bullet design.

[Pinefarm]

I know what you mean about handloads. But don't you need a modern gun capable of shooting those? I know what you mean about the 50 cal too! LOL One time we jumped a grizz that was bedded about 20 yards away in the thick stuff right next to the 15' wide creek we were walking in. Add about 25 yards of visibility and the nerves go on super high in .1 a second. Luckily, the bear went the other way and we never even saw it, other than small saplings bending and breaking as the bear ran off. But it made a ton of noise and afterwards, we all had a long exhale and I'm sure my hands were shaking just a bit. You have to remember, in a lot of these places, these bears don't have any human contact. In some of your fishing destinations in Alaska, humans walk around feeding bears and can stay in visual contact. Our guide explained that these bears won't be like the ones you see on the fishing shows. These bears are solitary and often treat you as an intruder or another bear that intruded on their territory. Having shot one grizz, I doubt I'll shoot another and will stick with black bears from here on out. And hopefully in my own backyard if I get a permit. Although I still expect to travel for whitetails and maybe elk. I've already got a nice moose on the wall. My dad shot several sheep (stone and dall) and he said that's #1 of all big game hunting. Even funner than grizz. It sure looks like it. I banged my scope while going up a mountain for Mountain Goats and when we got to the top, I missed a B&C goat at about 100 yards, broadside! I was sick. But while climbing, there was no good spot to shoot and test it. Plus we didn't want to spook anything. So we climbed for 6 hours up and 6 hours down for a heartbreaking miss. At camp, I shot the gun and it was like 3' high! But that's the breaks. But I'd love to redeem myself and go goat hunting again. Sheep is just too expensive anymore. Get this! When my dad use to go, his last trip to AK was for Griz, dall sheep, moose and caribou and cost $750! Can you imagine? To top it off, he filled on all of them. Man, what I'd give for a time machine. I think to shoot a doe at Legends is like $750 bucks! I can't imagine what a trip like that would cost today. I think you can still hunt goats for around $5000. That's the trip I'd love to take in the next 15 years. It's not so much the beauty of the animal, but the scenery, terrian and hunting conditions are out of this world. I just gotta keep saving and sweet talk the wife. ;)

[Swamp Monster]

Yea, you have to shoot modern guns. The Marlin Lever guns and the Ruger #1 are two of the strongest...though some hand loads are even too hot for the Marlin. I believe most of these loads can be fired in the old Winchester 1886 as well. These 1886's in 45/70 have skyrocket in value, for a number of reasons, but many are in demand by those that work and play in big bear country. The .450 Marlin was basically developed for those that wanted semi-hot 45/70 loads but didn't reload or wish to pay $50 or more a box for the semi-custom stuff. Marlin/Hornady did not have to worry about this round being chambered in weak guns.
I would someday love to hunt Grizzly in Alaska. I want to do a Moose hunt there as well. And I will, but I need to be very sevure financially before I justify it. The Griz hunts I have looked into (window shopping!) have been anywhere from $5000. to $14000. So it's not a hunt the average guy can do on a whim! A Rocky Mountain Bighorn (or any sheep/goat for that matter) hunt would be the ultimate, but I cannot kid myself. I could never afford such a hunt or be lucky enough to draw a tag. And more importantly, I will never be in the shape required to handle a sheep hunt. I did see some bighorns in Colorado during a elk hunt, but seeing them and getting to them are two different things. $750 probably wouldn't get you into the airport in Alaska, let alone a tag for such an animal! Until then I just try to read about it as much as I can. I have two Grizzly guns picked out already though! IT would be between a .338-378 Weatherby with a 250 grain Barnes X bullet at a ridiculous velocity or the good ol' .416 Remington Mag. Either would be built on a stainless mod 70 action with a Mcmillen or similiar synthetic stock.
A guy can dream can't he! Untill then though, these Michigan whitetails will have to suffice!

[Pinefarm]

Yup, married & mortgage means local spike horns for Bob for at least the next 15 years. :lol:
And as you say, by then I may not want to huff up a mountain.