Need small game hunters' input on non-toxic shot proposal

[Linda G.]

I'm doing a story for the next issue of MON regarding the DNR's proposal to restrict small game hunters to the use of non-toxic (steel, etc.) shot ONLY on all or portions of some wildlife and state game areas in Zone 3 of the southern Lower peninsula, and I need the input and thoughts of small game hunters who hunt predators, rabbits, pheasants, quail, woodcock and squirrels in those areas. This will also apply to those who use shotguns loaded with buckshot for deer or predators-NOT to those who use slugs.


The areas being proposed for this restriction, which will be presented to the NRC for information only next week, and may be approved at the September meeting in time for the opening of the regular small game season, are:

portions of Fish Point
Nayanquing
St. Clair Flats, including Harsen's Island and St. John's Marsh
portions of Wigwam Bay on Saginaw Bay
portions of Maple River
Shiawassee River
Crow Island on Saginaw Bay
portions of Allegan
Pte. Mouillee

(the portions of certain areas that would be closed to lead shot would be any areas that are either flooded by the DNR or flooded by Mother Nature)


Please let me know what you think-and please include, via email or pm, your full name and location to be included in the article. I cannot use your input without that information.

I need this asap, like today and tomorrow, Thursday and Friday-I'll have the article done by then, so if you don't see this until after the weekend, it will probably be too late to use your thoughts, but feel free to put them down here anyway!!

Thanks!!

[ESOX]

PM sent.


Hi Linda,

I have no problem with the proposal. I believe it has been proven to my satisfaction that lead shot is detrimental to wildlife, geese and ducks in particular. We owe it to our offspring to do whatever we can to protect the environment they will inherit from us. It Wouldn't even bother me to see a ban on lead sinkers etc.

Most people have already acclimatred themselves to the use of bismuth, steel etc.

One thing that might be a problem is the availability of smaller shot sizes in smaller calibers like 20 ga. Haven't ever had to look for them so I am just not aware of their availability.



Any other opinions?

[GVSUKUSH]

Linda,

I would support a non-toxic shot only regulation in the Maple River Flooding for small game (in addition to waterfowl). I small game hunt out there on occassion and I believe that most of the fields are close enough to the flooding (plenty close for lead to land in the flooding itself) for lead shot to be a detrimental factor.

Steve

[Steelheadfred]

Linda,

I am in support of a non-tox shot restriction in the areas you listed, as these areas are primarly waterfowl production areas, they see heavy hunting use/pressure through out the season and as a sportsman any thing we can do to increase game populations for multiple use is in the best interest of all hunters and fisherman in our state.

Fritz Heller
Traverse City, MI

[FREEPOP]

The only thing that concerns me about this is that some guns can't handle steel and or some of the alternatives. I have to ask the question, "Can you use lead single projectiled (223, 22 rim fire, etc; basically a slug) in those areas if lead ins't allowed?" Because predators, squirrel and rabbits can be hunted with them.
The cost of small game hunting in those areas would increase when a shotgun were used, but it would be a small price to pay based on the benefits to the future.
They only real problem I have with these rules, being an absent-minded hunter is, remembering to empty everything out of my pockets. You know, get a ticket for one single leaded shell, or a couple of leaded shells for a gun that you don't even have with you.

[Adam Waszak]

I agree with you freepop the idea of small game hunting becoming like the trout regs scares me a little but at the same time I do not want to see non-tox statewide because i can't afford to hunt at that point! I would support areas which are to be considered too wet or edges of wetlands but I do fear this is a can of worms potentially.

AW

[GVSUKUSH]

I don't know if this opens a can of worms, as you see the lands mentioned are immediately adajcent to marsh/bodys of water. Right now it doesn't make sense that a pheasant hunter can be kicking around marsh grass using lead when a duck hunting in the exact same area is only allowed steel. I can see Linda said "Portions" of Wigwam and Maple River, I've hunted both and there are hay fields immediately adjacent to marsh, I assume fields that aren't would not be applicable to these rules.

portions of Fish Point
Nayanquing
St. Clair Flats, including Harsen's Island and St. John's Marsh
portions of Wigwam Bay on Saginaw Bay
portions of Maple River
Shiawassee River
Crow Island on Saginaw Bay
portions of Allegan
Pte. Mouillee

[ytlabs]

Freepop, the only one of those places listed is above the rifle zone for the use of a rifle calibure. that area is Wigwambay area.

All of the other managed areas mentioned are below the rifle zone thus only a shotgun would be allowed anyhow for hunting. The DNR stated that single projectile shells would still be allowed to be lead. This is being proposed for multi shot shells only.

[Byron]

ytlabs,

Small game hunters can use any rifle caliber throughout the state anytime other than November 15th-30th. Here's an excerpt from the reg's on the DNR site:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All Firearm Deer Seasons-Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10913-31537--,00.html), all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 14 years of age or older during the November 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.
Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons for restrictions during this season. From November 15-30, .22 caliber rimfire rifles and handguns may be used to kill raccoon while hunting raccoons with dogs between the hours of 7 p.m. and 6 a.m.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The rifle/shotgun zone rules apply only in a small part of the small game seasons.

Best Regards,
Byron

[Huntin Horseman]

I would definatly support a lead ban for shotguns in certain areas where there is a big waterfowl presence. For .22's I don't see a reason to ban them, I don't think there would be enough lead put into an area to cause a problem.

[ytlabs]

Dang Learn something new every day. :D

Ok Ok I have learnt a couple things today but this was the most interesting. LOL

[Linda G.]

is anyone concerned that this is one step closer to a full ban on the use of lead shot for all types of hunting activities? I've had a couple of folks say something like that...also, I need to know if you hunt these areas, and your last name as well as your first, in the case of GVSUKush and a couple of others...

keep it coming...!

:)

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

I realy don't know much about water fowl hunting or the affects lead shot has on them.

I also in turn do not shoot steal shot or any of the bizmuth etc.

But I as long as the laws only affect the water fowl areas I would be fine with that.

Now I would be totally against a total ban on lead shot.

[Huntin Horseman]

Rob - From what I've read...the reason the lead affects waterfowl is that they eat small rocks and pebbles because their gizzard uses them to digest their food and when they get ahold of the lead pellets it also gets digested into their blood stream and then eventually poisons them. Mammals on the other hand can eat a solid piece of lead and pass it with little or no effect on them. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. :-)

[Pinefarm]

To be honest, while I know it would raise the cost of fishing, we've always made "black comedy" jokes about all the thousands of tons of lead in our rivers from sinkers. Think about a 30 year span at Tippy, the PM, Mo or Grand. That can't be good for us and certainly not for future generations as another 50 years worth of lead lines the gravel bottom. I think it's a great health concern. And if a bag of shot costs $7 instead of .99 cents, then so be it. My .02

[Randy Kidd]

I have Hunted and occasionaly still hunt Pt Mouillee for pheasants and rabbits, Although I do approve of non-toxic shot for waterfowl and would approve of it for small game in watershed areas, but it would have to be with a caveat, Not to try and extend it to other areas of hunting. But that would be like asking the sun not to rise in the morning. We are on a slippery slope and it's raining pretty hard.

[Linda G.]

Is this your real name? If not, please pm or email me? Thanks, Linda

[Nimrod1]

Linda,
I've always found it a little ironic, that if I wasn't pointing at waterfowl I could use lead shot in the same area. I would be dead set against a state wide mandate for non-toxic shot, but I am in favor of using it for all game in the mentioned areas. I've hunted woodcock in the same neck of the marsh as ducks and used non-toxic shot just because I thought it the right thing to do. Never gave the sinker issue much thought, but it is something that might be worth looking at also.

[Big Frank 25]

Although I'm not sure about buck-shot, this has been in effect in the St. Clair Flats area for sometime!

Not a problem!

[Bow Hunter Brandon]

is anyone concerned that this is one step closer to a full ban on the use of lead shot for all types of hunting activities? I've had a couple of folks say something like that...also, I need to know if you hunt these areas, and your last name as well as your first, in the case of GVSUKush and a couple of others...

keep it coming...!

:)


Conserned nope.

Happy. Yes

The faster we move away from lead in limited or state wide the beter in my opinion. non lead loads go down in price each year. with the increase in production it would continue to decrease. So cost is not a consern to me.

So Yes I support it totally.

[ytlabs]

Well here is what I think. ( Not that it matters much anyhow) Off the Record.


I am in favor of a total ban on all Multi projectile shells that use Lead shot.
What is good for the waterfowl and the watershed, sure isn't going to hurt the other fowl and animals in the environment either.

As mentioned above the cost comes down each year as more and more people use the higher cost shells such as bismuth and tungenstin and even hevi shot.

Remember everyone, when they implemented this for waterfowl it was NOT accepted. Now for the most part it is not even thought about amongst the majority in waterfowl. Although one of the biggest violations in waterfowling is the use of lead shot still. These are the same people for the most part that are able to be cited for various other issues too.

The cost of steel shot when it came out on the market was UNREAL, and it was worthless to boot. The other non toxic shot has already proven itself in the huning world, so its ability to work is not an issue.

The current issue is the cost of it. To be honest the cost of it would drop, making it more cost effective for everyone.

The banning of it statewide would be the best thing to do. It would put Michigan once again in the leadership roles of the Nation, which leading by example is the best thing to do. It would show our commitment to the environment as a group.

I will add I will not support the ban of lead slugs, or bullets of any single trajectory shell, until they can impliment and prove its effectivness. If tomorrow they said and proved that a bismuth rifle shell was as accurate and effective I would even say we need to look at that too.

[GVSUKUSH]

To be honest, while I know it would raise the cost of fishing, we've always made "black comedy" jokes about all the thousands of tons of lead in our rivers from sinkers. Think about a 30 year span at Tippy, the PM, Mo or Grand. That can't be good for us and certainly not for future generations as another 50 years worth of lead lines the gravel bottom. I think it's a great health concern. And if a bag of shot costs $7 instead of .99 cents, then so be it. My .02

Exactly, how come more has not been made of this? How much lead is at Tippy? Sixth Street? PM, Betsie, etc, etc. Steel splitshot and sinkers allready exist, I think the lead needs to be outlawed on rivers, or at least studied as to it affects.

[FREEPOP]

As much splitshot as I have bitten onto my line over the years, I have to say that I'm amazed that I'm still alive.

[GVSUKUSH]

:yeahthat: not to mention all of the orthidontic work I've screwed up :D

[Robert W. McCoy Jr]

I think a totall ban is a bad move.

Many guns were not made to shoot anything but lead years ago.

Plus the lighter gauges like 28's and 410's I am not even sure if they make a good equivalent for lead shot to fit those gauges.

No there is no need to ban it totally.

[Randy Kidd]

Is this your real name? If not, please pm or email me? Thanks, Linda
Yes it is my real name.

[Randy Kidd]

Lead sinkers and the like in the bottom of rivers and lakes are not the problem. Lead leaches at such a slow rate ( remember it is a naturally occuring heavy metal) that it is not going to harm anything. I believe that in some parts of the country houses that still have old lead pipes in their water systems are grandfathered in so they don't have to be changed until repairs have to be made. You pretty much have to injest lead in either dust form, or in concentrated settled gas vapors to have an effect. As far as changing all shot to non toxic, I see no need to change it. Last thing we need is more rules and regulations further restricting what we can do in the outdoors.

[farmlegend]

This is sure to be an issue in the future, to be used (and is already used) against small game hunting. I'd just as soon have hunters take the lead and take this issue off the table now. I wouldn't mind seeing a phase-out (over a period of years) of lead shot for all small game hunting.

[boehr]

I have no problem with all small game hunting going to something other that lead. I also believe that farmlegend has the right approach. Phase in over a five year period slowly expanding until it covers the whole state. After all, hunters are the leaders in conservation.

[FREEPOP]

Thinking more about this today, brings something to mind. In time would we also eliminate lead from the clay ranges?

[FixedBlade]

I would like you to ask why this has come up. Is there data suggesting a rise in bird deathes along the rivers due to the ingestion of lead shot? I would think that if there is no data to show an increase of bird deaths from lead shot then there is no issue. And if this is the case, this should not be on any agenda. It is a waste of money and recourses to persue a preceived issue. There is nothing stopping a manufarturer from making and marketing new non-toxic shot loads for small game. If the ammo manufacturers simply made it and put it on the shelf for several years, hunters would become familure with it. Then after ten years or so they could slowly faze out lead. After all isn't that what has happened to the record album (LP's) 8 track tapes and cassetts. Is anyone still running a DOSS program? Windows 95?
Doug Kolehouse.
Linda, you can use this but you will have to do a spell check first. lol.

[Neal]

Three New Shot Types Approved for Waterfowl Hunters

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service yesterday approved three new non-toxic
shot types B tungsten-bronze-iron, a new formulation of tungsten-iron, and
tungsten-tin-bismuth B for use in waterfowl hunting.

The approval published in the Federal Register today. Today's action
brings to 10, the number of non-toxic shot types available to waterfowl
hunters.

"Protecting our waterfowl populations while ensuring waterfowl hunting
opportunities are two things we take very seriously," said Service Director
Steve Williams. "With each new shot type approved, hunters will have a
wider range of choices as they continue to play a key role in the
conservation of waterfowl and its habitat."

International Nontoxic Composites Corporation's application of
tungsten-bronze-iron shot, ENVIRON-Metal Inc.'s application of
tungsten-iron shot, and Victor Oltrogge's application for
tungsten-tin-bismuth shot have all been approved after being subjects to a
rigorous testing protocol.

Previously, hunters were allowed to use steel shot, bismuth-tin,
tungsten-iron, tungsten-polymer, tungsten- matrix, tungsten-nickel-iron and
please see
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/nontoxic_shot/nontoxic.htm.

Efforts to phase out lead shot began in the 1970s and a nationwide ban on
lead shot for all waterfowl hunting was implemented in 1991. Canada
instituted a complete ban in 1999. Waterfowl can ingest expended lead shot
and many then die from lead poisoning. In addition, predators that consume
waterfowl may ingest the shot.

A study in the mid-1990s found that the nationwide ban in the United States
on the use of lead shot for waterfowl hunting has had remarkable success.
Six years after the ban, researchers estimated a 64 percent reduction in
lead poisoning deaths of surveyed mallard ducks and a 78 percent decline on
ingestion of lead pellets.

The rule published in the Federal Register is available at
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is the principal Federal agency
responsible for conserving, protecting and enhancing fish, wildlife and
plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American
people. The Service manages the 95-million-acre National Wildlife Refuge
System, which encompasses 544 national wildlife refuges, thousands of small
wetlands and other special management areas. It also operates 69 national
fish hatcheries, 64 fishery resources offices and 81 ecological services
field stations. The agency enforces federal wildlife laws, administers the
Endangered Species Act, manages migratory bird populations, restores
nationally significant fisheries, conserves and restores wildlife habitat
such as wetlands, and helps foreign governments with their conservation
efforts. It also oversees the Federal Assistance program, which distributes
hundreds of millions of dollars in excise taxes on fishing and hunting
equipment to state fish and wildlife agencies.

[brdhntr]

2004 House Bill 6114 (Ban lead fishing tackle):
Introduced by Rep. Chris Kolb on August 4, 2004, to prohibit the sale or use of
lead fishing tackle, subject to a $1,000 fine and 60 days in jail.
Details and Comments: http://www.michiganvotes.org/2004-HB-6114


For my part, I am against further bans, since I have not seen or heard of any studies that show we actually have a problem. I'm sure someone out there can find a bird/animal that has ingested lead and died, but we aren't seeing it on a scale that endangers wildlife populations. I'm not into feel good legislation just for the heck of it. Anyone who doesn't want to use lead is free to do so, without legislating it.