Rifles in Southern Michigan

[ART]

I own an Encore 15" 45-70, and a Guide Gun, also in 45/70. The Encore is legal down here, while the 18.5" GG isn't.
I see a real place for rifles in S. Michigan, if they are held to the same rules as pistols- straight walled cartrides .35 caliber minimum.
Inline's, and sabot loads in shotguns, are just as flat shooting as 45-70's, .44 mags, etc. , and have caused no problems here.
I read off some fellow who contacted the MDNR about legalizing rifles, and was told the reason they don't is because it would be an enforcement nightmare, because the CO would have to check each rifle for legality.
I don't see this as a problem as they already have to check weapons for compliance, and for proper shot in shotguns.
Anybody know who that fellow is, and what his groups name is?
Any comments??

[jk hillsdale]

Art,

I'd be surprised if there would be much support for legalizing rifles for whitetails in S. MI, although the two specific examples you provided are quite similar in muzzle velocity to saboted slugs or inline muzzleloaders shooting 150 grains of powder. The word rifle automatically brings to mind high velocity, and it seems to me that it would take an extraordinary amount of education to gather support for what you're suggesting (i.e. same standards as pistols).

By the way, welcome to the site. This is a great place, with a lot of good people.

[One Eye]

I agree that this current rule is a joke. I have hunted areas in Hillsdale and Lenawee Counties where there was a mile between farmhouses. Hell, I can hunt with a rifle in Northern Muskegon County and be within sight of a business development or a housing subdivision.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if they moved the rifle zone even further north.

Good luck and welcome aboard.

Dan

[Pinefarm]

I agree with One Eye. There are several places by me in Newaygo (current rifle zone) where I think rifles are becoming very dangerous. But, on the other hand, most places we hunted in Illinois, which is shotgun only, were far more remote than here. Go figure. I not only think that southern Michigan will never see rifle deer hunting, but I foresee the shotgun line moving north as the population and housing grows in the once very rural area's around Big Rapids, Mt Pleasant or Cadillac. In another 10 years, Big Rapids may well be the bedroom community of Rockford. Already lots of people that live in BR commute to GR for work and it's growing fast around here. Can you imagine the lawsuit against the state following the first fatality in southern MI of someone getting shot with a rifle bullet in their living room while watching TV in gun season? The attorney for the victims family will say that MDNR changing the safer rules to less safe was the cause. They'd sue for $500 million dollars! And probably win. Not to say it can't happen up north, but overall, the risk is still much greater in the south with the far greater populations, car traffic, people walking dogs, etc. It ain't ever gonna happen. IMHO

[ESOX]

Very good points Bob, as JK hillsdale points out, the ballistics of the front end stuffers and slug guns have improved so much the past 20 yrs, could you forsee a limitation on them forthcoming in the future?

[Pinefarm]

Possibly. I don't think the current improvements warrant it, but in another 5 years and they make a 400 yards muzzleloader, then some form of powder limit may be warranted. Know what I mean? So many grains of whatever powders are out there being sold.

[Swamp Monster]

Esox,
I could possibly see some limitations applied if technology keeps up at the current rate...and it probably will. But for now, even the new high velocity slugs drop like a rock much past 150 yards or so. Muzzleloaders are much the same, though they are pushing the envelope a bit more. And some of the custom inlines that handle 300 grains of powder have quite a bit of range. But, when comparing any of these to a light weight high velocity bullets fired from say a .270 or 06 class cartridge and the comparisons are few. Even saboted slugs can't travel miles regardless of the angle of fire, and most centerfires can easily send a bullet over a mile if fired at a dangerous angle. Shotguns are still a short range game and the average muzzleloader is the same. Will technology change this? I believe it may be possible with new propellents and bullet design etc, but we will have to wait and see. I think Bob is right about the shotgun line moving north at some point, but having lived in and around Big Rapids for 8-9 years and still hunting in Mecosta county every year, I can tell you that they have been saying that every year for the last 15. the rumor mill seems to hit full tilt on this subject every September.
I can see the argument for straight walled rifle cartridges, based on the ballistic facts but I don't think the state is willing to open that can of worms. The number of folks that hunt with single shot pistols that handle these cartridges probably represents less than 1% of southern Michigan hunters...just my opiniated guess. Support would be hard to come by.

Welcome to the site Art!

[Randy Kidd]

On the other side of the coin, With land development, and suburbanites clamoring for "property up north" I forsee in the future the entire lower penniusula as Shotgun/muzzleloader only.

[Banditto]

That being said with that encore go get yourself a 375 H&H pistol barrel, not to be confused with the rifle magnum load of the same name.

This straight walled cartridge is legal in the shotgun zone but SHHH! don't tell let the state legislature know! cause it is silly kinda big, like as big as your finger kinda big.

[Swamp Monster]

Banditto, The cartridge you are referring to is the .375 JDJ and it is NOT legal in southern Michigan and it bears no resemblance other than caliber to the .375 H&H mag. Its is a .444 Marlin case necked down to .375 caliber, making it a bottleneck cartridge, therefore illegal.
Here's a link describing this round, with dimensions. http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p375jdj.html

This is however a great deer round.

Now the .375 Winchester is legal has I believe its straight walled, but it's far less powerfull than the .444 Marlin, 45-70 and the .450 Marlin. It was about a 100-150 yard gun in the 94 so in pistol form it would be less effective than any modern slug gun/muzzleloader atleast on paper.
Here's a link to the .375 Winchester
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/375w.html

[BASSNTAZ]

I could be wrong but didn't the law say no single shot pistols in shotgun zone and isn't a 45-70 a tapered cartage? Did they change the single shot pistol laws recently?

Just my 2 cents.

[Swamp Monster]

Here's the shotgun zone law....cut and pasted from the DNR website.
The last paragraph states that single shot pistols are legal.


All Firearm Deer Seasons-Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 14 years of age or older during the November 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

[Banditto]

Swamp Monster, you are correct its not the h&h. I am sitting here trying to remember what that cartridge is called. Too many .375 cartridges, but I am nearly positive it is a .375 H&R (off by one letter) which is a straight walled case. The guy I hunt with has one.

[Swamp Monster]

I'd like to know what it is as well. The .375 JDJ has been a wildcat for years by SSK industries. (they offer a whole line of JDJ cartridges) This year it was legitimized and loaded in factory form....other than through some custom shops. Do a search of Encore Custom barrels. The only chambering I can find in my searches are the .375 Winchester and the .375 JDJ. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, just that it must be very rare or a custom job from a small shop. Could it be a a caliber in the .416 range or larger based on the H&H case?

[Swamp Monster]

OK, finding out this cartridge is driving me nuts so I did some more research. I did find a few more chambering in .375 but I don't think any are straight walled.
I found the .375-284, the .375-350 Rem Mag, and the .375 Super Mag

Now, Most .375 cartridges have a neck measurement of between .396 -.404 depending on the cartridge. The .284 case is .495 at the base (not the rim) and is .465 at the shoulder. Unless this cartridge is severly tapered, it's not straignt walled. The .350 Rem Mag case is .512 at the base and I cannot remember the neck but it to would have to be severely tapered to be straight walled as well. I cannot find any info on the .375 Super Mag, but I think it may be a necked down version of the .445 Super Mag, albeit it lengthened a bit. I'll try to find out more though.

Well I can find much in the way of case dimensions and I made some calls with no contacts, but the info I can find leads me to believe that the .375 Super Mag was designed for Dan Wesson revolvers and is in the power range of a .41 Mag. If thats the one, than it is legal, but no more potent than a factory .44 mag revolver. Sounds to me though, the cartrdige you are describing is larger than this.

[ART]

I could be wrong but didn't the law say no single shot pistols in shotgun zone and isn't a 45-70 a tapered cartage? Did they change the single shot pistol laws recently?

Just my 2 cents.Single shots were legalized last year for South Michigan, with the straight-walled cartridge limitations.
The 45-70 is a straight walled cartridge- lacking a shoulder. I checked with the MDNR, and they said as much. Straight walled means you can lay a straight edge along the wall from the rim to the neck. It has no relation to the other wall (side).

[Swamp Monster]

Art is correct, tapered is not to be confused with necked down.