Bass Season Change Meeting

[ABA]

Once again we need to preserve our fishing opportunities and rights from the Michigan DNR. The Michigan DNR is planning a Michigan Bass Season Change. They want to push back opening day STATEWIDE from Memorial weekend to either the 3rd Saturday in June or July 14th (depending on which scenario gets passed). We will also loose the catch and release season we currently have on all the existing 6 catch-and-release lakes The DNR supports 4 scenarios from the Michigan Bass Regulations Change proposals released in April. You can view the proposals and other information about the changes at my website www.michiganbassanglers.com

You may not care to Bass fish but if you're an outdoorsmen, it is in your best interest to support all other outdoorsmen as long as their activities don't adversely affect the resource. Walleye, Deer, Turkey, Small Game or Trout season maybe next. Bass fishing in Michigan is at an all time best. The DNR has not had the need to stock Bass in Michigan in over 25 years. Bass are self-supporting, bigger, more abundant and more plentiful than ever before. These are the good ole’ days of bass fishing. There is absolutely no need for a shorter Bass season. Think about how many hundreds of thousands of trout, perch and walleye the DNR have to stock each year just to keep the population in check. Walleye, perch and trout will be next. Lets unite and take a stand now.

If the DNR gets their way we could loose 4-6 weeks or more of our current Bass season in Michigan. Plus our current 7-week long Catch and Release season.

A meeting is planned at 6:30 PM this coming Wednesday 6/16 at Wonderland Marine West to talk about our strategy to combat the DNR's attempt to limit bass season, to discuss the DNR’s plans, organize and educate concerned anglers. We will follow up this meeting two weeks later on June 30th at 7:00pm at Bass Pro Shops and continue on with 2 - 4 more meetings in July and Aug if possible.

The goal of this meeting is to educate, to form a game plan, prepare and organize for the upcoming DNR meetings.

I hope we can all get on the same page.

I need all of your help and support. I need you to contact every fishermen (not just bass fishermen), business owner, outdoorsmen, politicians, Bass clubs, organization, media representative and any one else you can. We need to unite as concerned Michigan citizens.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.



Thanks,

Anthony Adams

aadams@americanbassanglers.com

[BuckBass]

I havn't posted here in almost a year, but I really need to give my .02 on this issue. I am an avid bass fisherman and I strongly support the DNR's proposed changes (primarily scenarios 5 and 6). It all boils down to 1 issue for me: more bass fishing days per year. I would love to be able to begin bass fishing in April instead of having to wait until Memorial Day weekend. I understand that there has to be a little bit of give-and-take with a change such as this, and I therefore understand why they feel the need to push the possession opener back if they are going to give us more opportunities in the spring.

I also understand why some of the tournament guys are a little ticked, but I too am a tournament fisherman and I would gladly trade a few tournaments (would only be 3 weeks with scenarios 4, 5 and 6) for an extra month of fishing in the spring. Almost all of the bass fishermen I talk to support the proposed changes, and I am going to campaign hard for those changes. Now, if the DNR starts leaning toward scenario 7 (no CIR season, July 15th opener) then I will be screaming as loud as anybody.

Obviously this topic is going to spark some passionate debate, but all I can do is give my opinion. If you disagree with me, and feel the need to blast me then please do so via email or PM.

Thanks,

Brad

[ABA]

Brad,

I respect your oppinion and I hope you respect mine and the many others who feel the same as I do.

You would be more than welcome at the above mentioned meeting and I would appreciate it if you came out. It would be benificial for us both to see each others point of view.

I am not sure why anyone would support a reduced season but I would like to understand why.

I wonder if you realize that you will lose 4-6 weeks of a catch and keep season This will reduce your tournament time by as much as 6 weeks. I have been given the understanding that Bass Tournament permits will not be issued during this extended catch and release season. Does this bother you at all?

The truth is that we now have 6 catch and release lakes here in Michigan and all are thriving. The Bass could easily support a longer season.

Bass fishing in Michigan is already the shortest season of ALL game fish. However the DNR feels justified in shortening it even more. Bass thrive better than any other game fish but they only feel the need to protect the Bass and not the Walleye,Trout, Muskie, Perch and others. Walleye and Trout are constantly stocked to keep the populations in check yet Bass have not been stocked in over 25 years. They feel the need to protect the Bass by shortening the season but feel no need to protect other game fish? Trout and Walleye have open seasons year round on many waters in Michigan yet bass do not. What is wrong with this picture? …….


Thanks

[Linda G.]

I would welcome delaying the start of the turkey season in Michigan, at least, in northern Michigan and the UP...we start too early as it is now, way before most of the hens have been bred...and the yoopers tell me they're tired of trying to get birds to gobble when there's still snow on the ground...;)

But I don't know how we could trade it for a catch and release season...;)

[BuckBass]

I am not sure why anyone would support a reduced season but I would like to understand why.
I guess I just don't see it that way. An April 24th opener as opposed to a May 29th opener sure looks like an increased season to me. I am not sure why anyone wouldn't suppport an increased season and I would like to understand that. It appears as though tournaments are more important to you than they are to me, so I think that's why our viewpoints are significantly different. All I know is that if the proposed changes occur I will be on the water a month earlier next year. I can only see that as a positive thing...

[chad helsel]

why is there any reason whatsoever that the bass season should be closed from january 1 through april 24 or the end of may? if the season is supposed to protect the spawn, CLOSE IT DURING THE SPAWN. like say may 15 through june 15 and let us fish the rest of the year. I am so sick of this ignorant blah blah blah
the dnr doesn't have a decent proposal, so i have been pretty quiet,
but nothing even remotely makes sense that the dnr is proposing.
there was a tournament on sanford sunday, took 21 pounds of smallies to win, and they all came off beds. they were bedding in early june last year also.
why can't i fish for almost 6 months to protect a spawn and then it opens
a week or two before the peak of the spawn every year. and if they need to
adjust it for areas, like move the season two weeks later north of say m-55
then do it. this isn't rocket science. maybe earlier south.
i apologize for venting, but i'm about to lose my mind. :)
sorry i am not going to be able to make it to the meeting it's over 2 hours to get there. and i see no proposal from the DNR that makes any sense to me.

[bignoccursg]

Bass season opener on Memorial day weekend has been a tradition in my family since I can remember {40 years}. With the lack of salmon in the thumb area, the overwelming commorant problem we have, the lamprey issues, and the mass bird feedings the DNR conducts by planting fish during the day, I dont see a need to change the one thing that in my mind seems to work perfect.
I am a bass fisherman for sure! I can understand why some fisherman would want a longer season. BUT, Michigan is a fishermans paradise! There is always some species to fish for all year long. If a fisherman wants to fish in April, fish for steelies in a river, browns from a pier, crappie on an inland lake, the suckers are running, walleye in the Detroit river, carp and catfish are available. I could probably go on and on.
The DNR needs to fix things that are broken. The bass regulations are not broken. They are working just fine.

[TrailFndr]

Simple solution to the whole Mess...C&R from April 1 till Memorial day, then open it statewide..Hell..its worked Great for 10 years on the 6 lakes with NO negetive effects...just do it state wide.. NO ONE Bass fishes in Janruary, so leave it closed until April...Man...its SOOOO Simple...Besides...even if we have open water in March...fish won't co-operate in water that cold...and even the DNR KNOWS that.


Untill the DNR can support a NEED to stock...why restrict it even more than it already is?? Uless you are going to restrict EVERYTHING Else too...and simply elliminate ALL stocking programs....

[live2fishdjs]

NO ONE Bass fishes in Janruary, so leave it closed until April...Man...its SOOOO Simple...Besides...even if we have open water in March...fish won't co-operate in water that cold...and even the DNR KNOWS that.
....

Some of the biggest bass (largemouth and smallmouth) I have ever caught have been in January and February while ice fishing...had 5 real nice smallmouth I would have liked to have mounted on a stringer one day, but the season was closed-to protect schooling populations of spawning fish :mad:

[chad helsel]

why doesn't anyone bass fish through the ice, it's a blast.
if you pick up a jigging rod(#5 black/silver rapala) and jig all the holes left over from the
bluegill fisherman that come out in the morning and leave you can catch a ton of bass. i would rather jig for bass all day and catch and release
a half dozen decent fish than catch 40 5" bluegills and crappies. the panfish
around here is definitely lacking.

[MGV]

Never enough good safe ice before the first of the year to fish them. Years back you could.

[ABA]

I guess I just don't see it that way. An April 24th opener as opposed to a May 29th opener sure looks like an increased season to me. I am not sure why anyone wouldn't suppport an increased season and I would like to understand that. It appears as though tournaments are more important to you than they are to me, so I think that's why our viewpoints are significantly different. All I know is that if the proposed changes occur I will be on the water a month earlier next year. I can only see that as a positive thing...

Thats not true and please dont put words in my mouth. Just because someone doesn't feel the season needs to be decreased doesn't mean they put Bass Tournaments ahead of the fish.... that is absurd and an insult.

I can currently start fishing on April 1st on 6 catch and release lakes so I am loosing a month of my catch and release and a month or more of my catch and keep season. The only thing I am gaining is more catch and release lakes.

I am not shure how a shortening of those two seasons can be an increase but ok......

Why dont you all come on out tonight to our meeting and voice your oppinions.

[djkimmel]

I really appreciate reading some of the different opinions. Thanks for taking the time to post them. I'm hoping Anthony will be setting up more meetings in other parts of the state over the next few weeks so maybe there will be one near you. That's been the plan anyway.

There is additional support for not moving the traditional opening day and still allowing more catch-and-release from other sources than just bass tournament anglers. There will be other groups and businesses who will be supporting that type of change and against moving the traditional opener including some major ones. A decent number of individual anglers are coming forward also who don't want the traditional opener changed. It is not just a 'bass tournament angler' issue as some make it out to be. That's just the old 'divide and conquer' strategy at work.

[BuckBass]

Thats not true and please dont put words in my mouth. Just because someone doesn't feel the season needs to be decreased doesn't mean they put Bass Tournaments ahead of the fish.... that is absurd and an insult.
I visited www.americanbassanglers.com and it appeared to be a tournament site. I appologize for thinking that the effect on tournaments would somehow factor in to your viewpoint. So no, I was not trying to "divide and conquer", I was only trying to understand where you were coming from.


Why dont you all come on out tonight to our meeting and voice your oppinions.
I would, except it is a 2.5 hour drive. Plus, I can already see that you don't want to hear any arguments for the changes. I'm already being flogged for having a differing viewpoint. Now I remember why I havn't posted here in almost a year...

[BuckBass]

It appears as though tournaments are more important to you than they are to me, so I think that's why our viewpoints are significantly different.
If that statement is "absurd", "an insult", and an attempt to "divide and conquer" then some of you are a little too touchy.

[ABA]

I would, except it is a 2.5 hour drive. Plus, I can already see that you don't want to hear any arguments for the changes. I'm already being flogged for having a differing viewpoint. Now I remember why I havn't posted here in almost a year...

We will be having more than one meeting around the state and I hope you can make it out. Like I said this IS about hearing everyone’s view not just mine or the majorities. Here is your chance to change my point of you. Come out voice your opinion that’s what this is all about. I want to hear and understand your views.

These meetings are for ALL bass fishermen and concerned anglers not just for those who support my views.

I am sorry if you perceived what I say any other way. Please don’t let the fact that I am a tournament director skew your view on my intentions. My intentions are to meet and discuss these proposals, hear EVERYONES views and make an educated conclusion as to what is best for BASS and MICHIGAN as a whole.

[BuckBass]

Cool. If you get around the Grand Rapids or Holland areas then count me in.

[djkimmel]

BuckBass, I was definitely NOT referring to you or anyone else on this site, regardless of past occurences, when I mentioned 'divide and conquer.' I was talking about a few in the MDNR involved in the writing the report that know it will be easier to get the result they want by pointing out certain 'kinds' of anglers and trying to make it seem like one issue or another is only important to them, but no one else. That way we argue amongst ourselves instead of addressing the report and the season as clearly as we could.

There is no one at the meetings asking at the door how you feel before letting you in, but the majority attending this first one were of the belief that they don't want the regular season changed from what it is now and want additional catch-and-release opportunities. I have no idea if that will continue or not until the next meeting occurs.

There were non-tournament anglers there tonight, which was good to see. There were a few variations in opinions and questions too.

[Hamilton Reef]

Gwizdz's bass article

The state's Coolwater Regulations Steering Committee has decided to take proposed bass season changes to the public. The Department of Natural Resources will begin holding public meetings around Michigan shortly.

At issue is whether catch-and-release bass fishing should be legalized during periods when it's closed but walleye and pike seasons are open.

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/statewide/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1088545200141060.xml

[Hamilton Reef]

ERIC SHARP: Neither side golden in bass dispute

July 9, 2004 , http://www.freep.com/sports/outdoors/

Tournament bass anglers will meet at 7 p.m. Monday at Bass Pro Shops in Auburn Hills to work out ways to stop what they see as the loss of three weeks of the competitive fishing season under regulations proposed by the Department of Natural Resources.

The DNR's proposed rules are a compromise aimed at protecting the bass population while acknowledging and legalizing a preseason catch-and-release fishery that has been a common practice for a decade.

The DNR has had a real problem policing the preseason fishery, because it's nearly impossible to win a court case against an angler who is ticketed for catching a bass in May when the season is open for pike and walleyes that take the same lures.

If I got one of those citations, I'd demand a jury trial, and I'd also ask the judge to order the DNR to train bass to avoid biting lures in lakes where pike and walleye fishing are allowed at a time when bass fishing is not.

The preseason, catch-and-release bass fishery has grown remarkably over the past few years because of several factors, including the increasing popularity of bass clubs in what was once almost exclusively walleye country, and the burgeoning number of bass guides.

Under present regulations, bass fishing closes statewide from Jan. 1 until the Saturday preceding Memorial Day. Then catch-and-keep fishing runs through Dec. 31 with the exception of Lake St. Clair and the St. Clair and Detroit rivers, which remain closed until the third Saturday in June.

The regulations recommended by a DNR study committee would allow catch-and-immediate-release from Jan. 1 to March 15, close the season March 16 to the last Saturday in April in the Lower Peninsula and March 16-May 15 in the UP, then reopen for catch-and-immediate-release until the third Saturday in June. The catch-and-keep period would be from the third Saturday in June until Dec. 31 statewide.

The tournament anglers don't like this, because they say it eliminates three tournament weekends out of what they already see as a very short season, compared with most parts of the country.

The problem with their argument is that we shouldn't be managing the fishery for the benefit of tournament anglers, who account for a relative handful of the roughly 500,000 Michiganders who say they at least occasionally fish for bass. We should be managing the fishery for the benefit of the bass to ensure that we will always have lots of them.

But the DNR is on equally shaky ground, because it hasn't produced convincing science to show that catching-and-keeping bass in May has any harmful effects on the bass population. In fact, it hasn't been able to show that leaving the season open year-round, as many states do, reduces bass numbers or sizes.

For more about the meeting and the issues, go to www.michiganbassanglers.com.

[djkimmel]

Just wanted interested anglers to know that there are more than just tournament anglers coming to the meetings. We have had non-tournament anglers and outdoors business people in attendance also at both of the first two meetings.

If you don't believe, or even question the need for the MDNR to take away several weeks of our ability to keep a trophy bass or fish for a meal on your Memorial vacation; or you're concerned that moving the traditional and important bass opener from a holiday weekend may affect people's vacation plans and/or outdoors spending habits; or if you just don't believe the MDNR should be TAKING AWAY fishing opportunity that has existed for years without existing proof they need to; if you would like to see your MDNR be like other states and practice giving more opportunity to hunt and fish, and not take away any opportunity unless there is significant evidence they really need to do so - then you may be interested in attending these meetings.

----------
djkimmel: “Why doesn’t the State of Ohio have a closed bass season?”

John Navarro – Ohio DNR Fisheries: “We feel any regulation we don’t have is not effective if we don’t have the regulation. We don’t like to tell people they can’t fish without a good reason.”

----------
djk: “Why doesn’t the State of Ohio have a closed bass season?”

Roger Knight – Ohio DNR Sandusky Fish Research Unit fisheries biologist: “We’ve reviewed all the available data. There is no biological data to support it. No studies to show this is necessary.”

djk: “If you are reading the same data nationally as every other state, why would any other state have a closed season?”

Knight: “We would argue that most states with seasons have seasons for social reasons, not biological.”

----------
djk: “Why do you have the present bass season in Pennsylvania?”

Bob Lorantas – Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission Bureau of Fisheries biologist: “We have some lakes with growth rate and productivity issues. The regulations hold back the harvest of bass a year or two to increase density so keepers end up being 3 or 4 years old. Our previous bass season had a grey area on allowing catch and release during the spring. Fishing was occurring, although technically illegal, so we decided we needed to do something.”

djk: “Do you have the season because you have evidence it is biologically necessary?”

Lorantas: “The jury is still out in Pennsylvania on how targeting spawning bass affects the bass population. We just took away the grey area. We are monitoring young of year (yoy) bass (two years of data so far) on some test lakes. Production has bounced around – probably due to our drought in our state. Smallmouths do better under drought in our streams though so they have probably been helped.”

Lorantas: “We could find no evidence of an effect of bedfishing for bass in the past. We set up focus groups and performed opinion surveys. We did literature searches and models of various populations. We modeled all the options anglers suggested to reach a consensus. We also followed the work of Jim Schneider on your Michigan catch and release study. I consider Jim an exemplary fisheries biologist.”

----------
djk: “Why doesn’t the State of Tennessee have a closed bass season?”

Frank Fiss - Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency Fisheries biologist: “There is no indication in study literature nationally that angling mortality has anything to do with bass recruitment. The environment is the major factor. This has been supported by rigorous testing. The critical period is late summer. Reproduction is not the major factor in recruitment. It is water conditions and lower water levels. It’s a habitat issue.

djk: “If all biologists are reading the same papers and studies, and know the same information, how would you explain why Tennessee can have no closed season, but Michigan would have a closed season?”

Fiss: “The social aspect is just different here.”

----------
djk: “Why doesn’t the State of Tennessee have a closed bass season?”

Bonny Laflin - Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency Fisheries biologist: “A closed bass season does absolutely no good whatsoever. Bass are so prolific. Aren’t your bass in Michigan still spawning when your season opens? It’s hard to see how a fixed date in May each year would provide much protection for an event that varies year-to-year.”

----------
djk: “Why doesn’t the State of Indiana have a closed bass season?”

Stuart Shipman – Indiana DNR fisheries biologist: “We have researched the topic and haven’t documented a need for a closed season. There is no harvest during the spawn that affects recruitment.

[kkirkens]

I too would like to see a floating season to protect the bass during spawning. One thing I have noticed and many of the other tourny fisherman is that the fishing is going down hill in a hurry. I can remember almost every boat coming in with fish and many limits, which makes for a more exciting weigh-in. As of last year I quit fishing tourny because of this. Many times the contest is won with only one fish and it makes for a long boring season. Now we have LMBV in the majority of our lakes, which in my opinion is because of the huge amount of tourny's going on now. Many lakes around my place are getting hit up to 2 times a day 4 days a week. This is killing our fishing and our fish. Hopefully, the DNR will try to do a floating season to help the bass spawn. As for the LMBV, I hope they find something to get rid of it. As for tournaments, I'd like to see a reduction and a limit as of how many can be held in a lake per season. I know alot of fisherman don't agree, but more and more guys that I fish will are starting to feel the same way.

[djkimmel]

kkirkens,
There isn’t a whole lot known about some aspects of LMBV yet. Luckily, we only have it in a handful of our lakes in Michigan (last I knew it was around 15 lakes), not the majority. No one knows how to get rid of LMBV but what is known is that is has normally only caused a die-off once on the infected lakes there have been die-offs and some lakes with infected largemouth bass don’t even suffer a die-off. Additionally, only a small percentage of adult bass normally die when a die-off occurs – about a 10% maximum. Most lakes with LMBV die-offs have recovered quickly around the country. Check out this information from the MDNR: MDNR LMBV update (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10364-93547--,00.html)

I’m curious what lakes you are referring to that you feel the fishing has gone south on? In general, most lakes are showing as good or better catches in our tournaments than ever. The Great Lakes are unbelievable at times for the weights and numbers that are coming in. There was a recent tournament up north on the Burt/Mullet chain that saw extremely heavy weights with a 5-bass winning weight of 26 ½ pounds and 5-bass limits of 18 and 19 pounds being in the 30s and 40s in the standings. I hear from other circuits that are still having exceptional weighins on many lakes.

Maybe the lakes you fish are having some kind of problem. Or maybe the bass are getting harder to catch if they are smaller inland lakes or rivers. That has happened here in Lansing on the Grand River. The fishing is better on the weekdays than on weekends often.

Are the lakes you are fishing having a lot of the weeds killed by the lake association? That is a major issue in some parts of the state. I have heard of one lake having some kind of forage problem also. Some of these things can be addressed if they are brought up to the right people.

There may need to be some discussion eventually about the number of tournaments on some waters, but bass tournament are one of the few growth areas in fishing and with more anglers wanting to participate, there is more demand. It’s hard to squeeze the high demand into such a short season. Just one reason why I believe it’s a mistake to shorten the existing season even more.

There have been discussions before on having a maximum number of tournaments per year per lake. The existing MDNR permit process does attempt to keep tournaments off holiday weekends and limit the number somewhat between Memorial and Labor Day weekends. This is only for MDNR boat ramps.

[kkirkens]

DJkimmel,
The lakes I am talking about are in the kalamazoo area like austin lake, long lake, west lake, even pine lake, gull lake, and gun lake have all been poor this year for NBAA. Last time we fished austin lake, there we many many bass floating which was very disappointing to see. Austin lake used to be an excellent fishery, but is now a poor fishery compared to 5 years ago. I know not much is known about LMBV, but I can tell it is a factor in our local lakes. Hopefully they figure out something soon. :(

[shametamer]

New thoughts, from recent travels....Having had a chance to talk with folks and fish over a dozen lakes in last several weeks. One thing is apparently clear..The 'average joe' is not catchin fish like they used to, and the sizes are smaller when they do succeed! With conversations of national forest personnel,conservation officers, resort and tackle shop owners; the general consensus was, fishin ain't what it used to be.(while im thinkin Thanks KK on austin lake info..that was on my list for this weekend)..........Dj, back to the count......of over 150 separate fisherman i have spoken with in last few weeks(i realize fisher folk may shade truth), 2 reported legal size bass.lakes included were....leelanau,tippy,bear(manistee)long(alpena), grand,douglas,paradise,brevoort,otsego,ford,south, big,morrison,tipsico and union..............I understand not everyone is as efficient as you are, but it seems that an occasional fish should fall to these folks...I undertand its July and weather has been poor this year ,but checkin the master angler records from previous years lots of them are from july. Personally(with exception of st clair) it has been my worst year on bass in the 48+ years i've been fishin(and i've taken, maybe 5 bass home in all those years,the rest were released)! Undersize fish and smaller catch rates seem to be the norm. The DNR kicked the pike limit back to 2 per day and i can see why(per my travels)...Would u like to see the bass go to that?.How about tighter regs on jet skis and cormorant control,b4 we worry bout longer bass seasons? Its well documented how the wave runners disturb nesting waterfowl,could be they effect bedding bass and gills as well..and the devil birds have decimated fishing(perch in les chenauxs',etc) and eat all kinds of 12 inch and smaller fish inplaces they inhabit.. We are planning on larger craft to more efficently fish the big water(as stocks inland appear to decrease) if this becomes the 'norm' for other fisherman, how long til the big water starts to feel the effects?(i.e. see the eyes reg change in mich waters of erie).......Just the views of a layman..thanks for listening

[bass-finaddict]

Shametamer, I do agree on one thing, the DNR has to better regulate other problems that hurt the fishery. I can go on Lake Erie every single day and always see a local taking undersized fish and illegal limits of fish. A year ago I watched a gentleman( i have a better word for him) catch a 12" bass from shore, do a overhand swing with the fish still on the hook a slam it into the rocks and put the fish into a bucket. This happened 10 times in an hour of watching him. I went to the ramp where i launched and told the DNR what i had seen and they shrugged there shoulders at me. I think the DNR should concentrate more on enforcing and educating the general public on what is legal. It gets pretty discouraging when you see stuff like this and the DNR solution is to take away bass fishing from the people who actually care about the resource.

[shametamer]

hey bass! i see the same kinda stuff on belleville and other lakes around..the DNR or sheriff response is less than timely(i reckon they have bigger issues). wish i could prove more..but at 56 and feeble i'm not too inclined (without back up) to confront 2 or3 chicago bears linebacker types and question them on size or legality of their catch..all i can say is keep the DNR hotline number handy..even if it only stops 1 out of 10 it helps!

[djkimmel]

I'm glad to hear the feds are finally allowing states to start controlling cormorant numbers. I haven't kept up on what Michigan is doing specifically, but I believe they have started something. That may help perch and possibly smallmouth bass although I have only seen information from New York showing bass being targeted by cormorants on Lake Ontario. I don't know if it is a common problem here or not.

A couple things to consider is that all bass populations go in cycles. I don't know that we are experiencing that on some lakes this year or not. It would be a quick turn around on some lakes. Southern lakes get enough pressure that bass do get harder to catch as the year progresses. They may be there. I haven't fished any of the lakes mentioned myself this year though and have only talked to a few anglers on a few of them.

I have fished a few of them in the past. Long Lake was very impressive last time I was there. I'll have to check with some of the guys from up there and see how they are doing. I fished Douglas last fall and we did not catch tons of bass, but landed 8 really nice bass and lost about 5 others. We had more follows that day than hooked (jerkbaits are that way some times - bright sunny day - not enough wind).

Burt and Mullett were awesome last fall. This June, the federation tournament had phenomenal weights with 26.5 for 5 bass winning and limits between 19 and 20 pounds being in the 30 to 40 place area.

Some lakes are slower. Some lakes are on fire. That's the way it is sometimes. I personally don't want to make a decision based on a few weeks of fishing on some lakes. I do wish our MDNR had more personnel and the budget to look at more lakes or at least watersheds individually in case something really is occuring somewhere that they may be able to do something about. That would be valuable. The bass season issue may actually cause some reassessment of how much of their dollars is spent on what species and/or type of fishing.

There's no doubt some lakes are tough right now. Even St. Clair has been slow. Still some really good weights brought in, but not as many total fish seem to be caught. I noticed this at Lake Ovid too, yet earlier in the season I could see about as many bass moving in to spawn as normal so I have to believe the bass are still there.

I hope the fishing picks up as the summer progresses for everyone on the lakes that are fishing tough and slow. If a lake stays that way, maybe a further look is necessary by the MDNR to see if anything is wrong, especially if it is a popular fishing lake. I've talked to them about lakes and rivers in the past when I thought something needed investigation.

Hal Schramm published an article not very long ago about an angler survey that looked at what anglers wanted from their fishing. It was interesting to note that most rated knowing good numbers of bass with some nice ones just being available for catching rated higher than actually catching them. Anglers want to know that there a bass to catch and some of them are nice ones. I understand that. I feel the same way and I wouldn't do anything that I thought would destroy that.

I am not at all against separate regulations for lakes that need them. I never have been. If a lake needs help, whether it a reduced creel, habitat enhancement, forage improvement or even stocking, I would support it as long as it is looked at scientifically so the clear and necessary solution is discovered.

[shametamer]

clear and necessary solution is discovered..................................BOY ARE THOSE GREAT WORDS!............I often wonder what our dnr boys are up to...7 lakes 3 different days..never seen anyone from that department at launch or on water...had to hunt them down at their office....i mean, really...i never put a 5 pound smallie on the hook sittin here at my pc!.......Seems to me..a little more..HANDS ON and a little less..relative theory may go a long way toward understanding....geez we coulda walked out of douglas..only boat at launch, with 10 6 pounders and no one would have known..and not reporting it..it coulda been 20 or 30.as u know that lake has few dwellings and places ur catch could easily go unnoticed..and as far as the treatment from locals i could certainly imagime some folks with a 'get even'.,f them atty............My concerns encompass many lakes and from all areas of the state over a several week period...as u know,fishing/vacation for most folks is from schools out, til schools in ,each summer. I'd like to think they might actually catch something of quality, as for me..i'll be chasin shiners on the rouge or guppies in a fishbowl..if neccessary.....you know its kinda like bein young and dating......sometimes the hunt is more fun than the catch!........lmao

[djkimmel]

Anticipation is a big part of it, no doubt.

As for the MDNR, I can't help but wonder often that some of them do need, for various reasons, more 'research' time on the actual water with a fishing rod. I've tried to arrange 'take a biologist fishing' days before with limited success. Ron Spitler tried this too in the past. It's hard to get them out and get volunteers to take them.

I've fished with a few over the years, but not many. It's still on my list of things to do in the future along with getting more legislators out on the water. Wisconsin has a great program they've done in the past that has even got governors out on the water.

[shametamer]

isn't that Ron Spitzler? same guy that rose thru the ranks? he used to be small potatoes here locally,years back, when i used to bend his ear!..lol,

[djkimmel]

Ron Spitler retired from the MDNR a couple years ago. He was the SE Michigan district fisheries biologist for quite a while before he retired.

He's now the volunteer conservation director for the Michigan BASS Chapter Federation. That's the same position I held for 10 years from 1987 to 1996.

[shametamer]

Hey Did Ron ever develop into much of a fisherman? He was kinda 'green' when i used to chat with him.........

[djkimmel]

He fishes tournaments and places high in some of them. I think he's won some, but I don't know a lot of details since he usually fishes different stuff than I do.

You'd think a fisheries biologist would have an edge, but I talked to another MDNR fb who is in a club and fishes tournaments and he told me just because he's supposed to know where the bass are doesn't mean he can make them bite.

[Hamilton Reef]

My answer is similar to Ron's. For many years as I gave presentations on our walleye culture projects I would be asked about how to catch the walleye. My usual answer was I'm a fishery biologist and here's the deal. I'll tell you how we put the fish into the lake and you can tell me how to take them out of the lake. That answer could apply to bass as well.

[shametamer]

gee hamilton, i had no idea you were a walleye specialist! have read all your postings with great interest, but never your profile, guess with all the news you have to share, i figured you were a newspaper guy or associated somehow with the media(funny, the ideas that get in an old mans head!) now that i know, i'm sure i will have a 'herd' of questions for you(when i'm a little more awake!..lol).hey DJ, go figure, last night the wife and I went to our every thursday nite club thing we landed 19 bass(4 keeper size and 8 within an inch) and lost a half dozen more.All in 4 hours, on a lake 20 minutes from the house. Somebody must be doing something right! I mean we are talkin a 200 acre lake,cottaged around and high pleasure traffic until 7;30, in the middle of yuppie suburbia! I'll have to check the beginning of this thread for meetin date..i need to learn more!

[djkimmel]

My friend tells me the bite is picking up for bass on St. Clair too as of early this week. I'm seeing more posts on sites about better catches being made.

The next bass season meeting is Monday July 26 7:00 PM at D&R Sports Center in Kalamazoo on W M-43.

[Hamilton Reef]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, 22 JUL 04
Contact: Todd Grischke, 517-373-1280

Meetings set to discuss proposed bass season changes

State fisheries officials today announced 24 public meetings throughout the state in August to gather input on proposed bass season changes.

The DNR in April finalized a report called “Black Bass Fishing Seasons in Michigan,” now available on the DNR web site at www.michigan.gov/dnr. The report identifies ways to provide additional recreational fishing opportunities without putting bass populations at risk.

At a May meeting of the External Coolwater Regulations Committee – a group that includes Michigan United Conservation Clubs, Michigan BASS Federation, Michigan Musky Alliance, Michigan Darkhouse Angling Association, Pikemasters, Michigan State University and University of Michigan fisheries professors – the group reviewed the report and unanimously supported moving forward with the public review process.

Four of the seven scenarios identified in the report will be the focus of the public meetings. The forums are intended to provide background information on the proposed season changes, answer questions about the report, and take public input on the proposals. The meeting schedule includes the following:

Aug. 2: 7 p.m., Newaygo County Sportsmans Club, 7951 Elm Avenue (just north of M‑82), Newaygo

Aug. 3: 7 p.m., Cadillac Junior High School Cafeteria, 500 Chestnut Street, Cadillac

Aug. 4: 7 p.m., Traverse City Civic Center, 1213 West Civic Center Drive, Traverse City

Aug. 5: 7 p.m., Gander Mountain, 43825 West Oaks, Novi

Aug. 10: Walli's East Motor Lodge, G-1341 South Center Rd, Flint

Aug. 10: 7 p.m., Escanaba Civic Center, 225 N. 21st St., Escanaba

Aug. 10: 7 p.m., Charlevoix High School, library room

Aug. 11: 7:30 p.m., Jackson County Outdoor Club, 3550 Hart Road, Jackson

Aug. 12, 7:30 p.m., Caledonia Sports Club, 10721 Coldwater SE, Middleville

Aug. 17: 7 p.m., Great Lakes Grill Conference Center, 817 E. State St., Cheboygan

Aug. 17: 7 p.m., Bay City State Park, near Bay City

Aug. 18: 7 p.m., Best Western, M‑32, Gaylord

Aug. 18: 7 p.m., Chesterfield Twp., 47275 Sugarbush, Chesterfield

Aug. 18: 6 p.m., Dickinson County Library Conference Room, Iron Mountain

Aug. 18: 7:30 p.m., Three Rivers Community Center, 103 South Douglas Ave, Three Rivers

Aug. 19: 7 p.m., Van Buren Township Hall, 46425 Tyler Road, Belleville

Aug. 19: 7 p.m., Days Inn, 1496 M‑32 West, Alpena

Aug. 20: 7 p.m., Jay's Sporting Goods in Clare

Aug. 23: 8 p.m., Tahquamenon Area Sportsmen's Clubhouse

Aug. 24: 7 p.m., MSU Extension Office, 1040 S. Winter St., River Raisin Room, Adrian

Aug. 24: 7 p.m. (EST), Negaunee Township Hall, 43 M‑35, Negaunee

Aug. 25: 7 pm (CST), Gogebic Comm. College, Solin Center, Room B‑2, Ironwood

Aug. 31: 7 p.m., Manistique Courthouse, Manistique

[djkimmel]

Guess there's only 23 meetings.

The Aug 10 Flint meeting is at 7 PM.

[Santiago]

I've spent many hours perusing the DNR's report on bass fishing seasons in Michigan. One of the first questions I have is this: Why change regulations anyway? The report states that "bass clubs" have been lobbying for change for many years. Report also states that tournament anglers (a.k.a. bass club anglers) comprise a measley 1.7% of our half-million bass fishermen (B.A.S.S. statistics). So why change everything to benefit such a tiny portion of our population?

The report provides overwhelming science-based information that fishing for bass during the spawn is bad for adult bass, eggs and fry. There's also some fairly incriminating information that suggests what we really need is to provide enforcement with sharper teeth to enforce existing laws. Nearly 70% of preseason bass anglers admitted to violating laws that protect spawning fish. Giving them a longer season is like releasing all the prisoners because one person escaped the cell block. Of the anglers I've spoken with, this pisses them off the most, besides the usual anti-tournament arguments. So why should such a small percentage of our fishing community be allowed to manipulate how our fish are managed?

To me, this totally reeks of special interests and corporate money.

[ABA]

Unfortunately your believing the bull that the DNR is puting out. The DNR is not changing the season because tournament anglers want it...... because there are very few tournament anglers out there who is in favor of what is being proposed. The DNR themselves has stated they would like to have Bass, Walleye and pike open up at the same time for enforcement reasons. The problem is they feel the added 3 weeks of catch and immediate release of Bass must be off set by a reduction of catch and keep season. They fail to see the lost revenue that this will have accross the state. Some local small buissness will dearly suffer from this new season they want.

You talk about the overwhelming evidence the DNR has put forth. If you go back and read the 53 page document the DNR uses the words could and may instead of WILL. The DNR at these public meeting has admitted they DO NOT have the evidence to back up what they FEEL will happen. They choose to ignore the tons of evidence brought forth by other studies ....some of it is their own... because they do not agree with the results of those studies they want to say they dont apply or they are flawed staudies.... those studies state that Bass do not need protection from fishermen during the spawn. The Bass spawn is rarely effected by Bass fishing pressure...it is most effected by weather and water levels... in fact most Biologists feel that fishing pressure during the spawn has no negetive effect on the overall bass fishery. All Most all Bass Biologists outside of Michigan and some here in our own state feel that Bass do not need protection at all.
Look at Walleye trout and Salmon seasons they are open during the spawn...... those fish are routinly stocked and harvested during that time just to keep the fishery in check..... Bass have not been stocked in Michigan in over 25 years due to angling pressure.... The MDNR stated we dont have to stock Bass because Bass take care of themselves..... Michigans Bass season is already one of the shortest bass seasons in the nation yet we feel the need to shorten it more? I want a MDNR that makes its decisions based on Facts not Feelings. I want a DNR who is all about promoting the enjoyment of the outdoors. I do not want a DNR who takes away opportunities with out the evidence to back it up. The DNR should consentrate more on providing more angling opportunity and less on taking opportunity away.

[djkimmel]

From the Minnesota DNR -http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/bass/management.html on bass management: Largemouth, Habitat Protection
“Largemouth are adaptable and prolific. They live and successfully spawn in a variety of conditions. Being very prolific, only a few bass are required to populate a large body of water. Consequently, stocking plays a very small role in largemouth management. It is usually limited to circumstances where largemouth are being introduced to newly filled basins, winter kill lakes or chemically "rehabilitated" waters.”

What is important in managing the largemouth is the protection of its habitat. Specifically, the largemouth needs the following if it is to flourish:
Spawning areas with a firm bottom of sand, mud or gravel; Beds of rooted aquatic weeds or other heavy cover, such as logs, to provide protection for fry and fingerlings, and cover and ambush sites for adults. Adequate dissolved oxygen, particularly during the winter.”

“Smallmouth Bass Management, Habitat
As with the largemouth, the best smallmouth management is the protection of its habitat.”

And from http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/bass/biology.html on bass biology:
Largemouth
"Largely because of the male's fastidiousness in building and guarding the nest, many fry survive, and a few adult bass can quickly populate new waters. In fact, researchers have found no correlation between the number of spawning bass and the subsequent number of young-of-the-year fish. The success of the spawn depends entirely on good spawning areas and stable weather."

Also, from http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/bass/biology.html on bass biology:
Smallmouth
"As with the largemouth, research on smallmouth has shown no relationship between the number of spawning fish and the success of the spawn. The strength of the year class depends solely on water conditions - in particular, the absence of a sudden cold snap or muddy floodwaters that can kill eggs and fry.”

From the Wisconsin DNR study -
The Use of a Spawning Season Closure to Protect Black Bass from Overharvest in Northern Wisconsin by T. Douglas Beard Jr. and Timothy D. Simonson, both of the Wisconsin Bureau of Fisheries Management:
"In 1992 a northern Wisconsin bass zone was created and a spawning season harvest closure was begun. Harvest of bass was not allowed in this zone until most spawning had occurred. Creel and population survey data were analyzed from samples collected pre and post regulation change and from both north and south of the northern bass zone."

"Results from this study indicate that the spawning season closure had little effects on black bass populations, with the major change being a shift in maximum harvest from spawning season until later in the year."

[bass-finaddict]

Dan thats good stuff! I actually felt dumber after reading that mess the DNR called a report on bass. It's a shame, but it seems like politics has more of an impact on what the DNR does, rather than actual research.

Keep up the good work!

[Santiago]

Try again. The small business owners I've spoken with about this subject do not think it will affect them either way. Tournament guys don't spend money in family-owned businesses because most local business owners won't cough up the dough to plaster pretty promos all over boats and vehicles. No, the businessmen I've referenced say that more special interest pressure means worse fisheries, and thus worse fishing for their regular customers.

As for science and studies, one thing's for certain. For every drop of pro-tournament angling information you release, there's another study that refutes it. Same with fishing for bass during the spawn. What's certain is that less than 2% of Michigan bass anglers have pushed for this season change. And what's even more strange is that those who have lobbied as special interest for so hard and so long won't accept the bounty that the DNR is offering. You're getting three fewer weeks of tournament time in exchange for the ability to (legally) harass bass statewide for an extra month. During their spawn, no less. Sounds like a pretty fair trade to me.

And IF the DNR is ignoring some of your science, so what. Look what they have to lose. They are granting fishing privileges to your minority at the expense of the fishery to the other 98% of bass anglers. They're certainly going to take some serious heat for this.

What's certain is that, of the many people I've talked to, fishing for bass is an ethically despicable act. Think of it this way. We could move all hunting seasons into the spring without changing the net numbers of animals that survive any given year. I mean, a dead deer in the fall is no more or less than a dead deer in the spring. But ethical conservationists prefer to allow animals to breed and protect young to the best of their abilities. Does this change anything about science? No. But we don't fish for other species in Michigan while they spawn. Why would any angler be allowed to do it to bass?

Two reasons, I think. Money, and ego. But certainly not for the benefit of Michigan's bass.

[ABA]

Saniago,

Your last post shows just how biased you are towards Bass fishermen and disscredits every point your trying to make. For that reason I probably shouldn't waste the time to actualy try and have an educated debate with you for the sole fact that nothing I say will be looked at objectively because your biased.

Look at this one statement.

What's certain is that, of the many people I've talked to, fishing for bass is an ethically despicable act.

How is fishing for bass a despicable act? What is wrong with Bass fishing? Are you against all forms of fishing? That would in the least show your baised towards fishermen and not just bass fishermen.

-----------------------------------

Try again. The small business owners I've spoken with about this subject do not think it will affect them either way. Tournament guys don't spend money in family-owned businesses because most local business owners won't cough up the dough to plaster pretty promos all over boats and vehicles.

Listen to how negetive towards Bass fishermen you are in this statement.

Not all Bass fishermen are as you described, many have small boats or no boats at all. This change will effect them as well. You talk about Bass fishermen like were not family oriented. Did you know that Bass fishermen hold more charitiable events for children then any other fishing group? Ever hear of Casting for Kids? There are alot of father and son bass fishing events accross the state that help promote the enjoyment of fishing to tommorows youth. Have you ever heard of a father and son walleye or trout event?

Bass fishermen on average spend more money than Walleye, Salmon and Trout fishermen. These anglers fill local hotels; buy food, gas, oil, tackle and services from local communities. Not to mention the trucks built here in Michigan to tow all those boats.

Michigans biggest industry is tourism and as i'm sure you are aware dollars from the tourism industry have a great impact on all local economies.

Many communities have a local marine dealer whose lively hood is selling boats and motors that generates jobs and tax revenue. Think about the small business owner that operate bait, cabins and tackle shops. What will this do to them? In my home town of Cadillac Michigan local hotels, motels, campgrounds, and cabins all fill up for the Memorial weekend opener with excited Bass anglers. Many of whom bring thier families. What would a shorter Bass season do to the economy of that town and it's surrounding communities.

Freshwater fishing is one of the largest industries in the US. The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and American Sportfishing Association tell us we are spending approximately $74.8 billion a year in freshwater fishing. Michigan ranks high among the states that have large numbers of freshwater fisherman.

Major tournaments have an impact of several million dollars. A study done by Auburn University and the State of Alabama Fisheries Dept. on an American Bass Anglers tournament on Wheeler Lake in early Oct. of 2002 showed that ONE single tournament had a possitive financial impact on the local economy of over 15,000 dollars.

The shortening of any fishing season will have a negetive impact on the economy, jobs, taxes and lost revenue. The DNR benefits from the sale of out-of-state licenses and by shortening the season you can garrentee a loss in this area as well. Think about the angler who lives on the Ohio and Michigan boarder and in one state he can fish 3 months longer than in the other state. Why would he buy a Michigan license for such a short season.

But we don't fish for other species in Michigan while they spawn.

We don't? EVERY other species BUT Bass is openly fished for during the spawn. Walley on the Detroit and St. Clair rivers are targeted, harvested and open year round. Salmon, trout and Steelhead are all open in many designated trout streams accross the nation.

Michigans Bass season is already the shortest season of all game fish in Michigan. Walleye, Salmon and trout all enjoy year round fishing opportunities and bass fishermen do not. Walley, Trout and Salmon are constantly stocked in Michigan and Bass are not. 43 states have no closed Bass season. Michigan is one of the shortest Bass seasons in the Nation yet we want to shorten it even more?

They are granting fishing privileges to your minority at the expense of the fishery to the other 98% of bass anglers.

Actualy lets get the facts straight here..... The MDNR did a study that showed 84% of Michigans freshwater fishermen support and want more angling opportunities for Bass. Your statements only continue to show your feelings towards Bass fishermen. No one should take anything you say seriously for it is based soley on conjecture and hate towards Bass fishermen.

[djkimmel]

Your opinions and your ethics. No more or less valid or good than mine. A lot less people feel the way you do and a lot more feel the way I do than you state here. We have thousands of petition signatures already. For all the caring you and 2 or 3 other guys say you have for the bass, I'm not seeing you at the meetings. If you feel as strongly as we do the opposite way, then you should be at the meetings.

There have been business owners who have spoke at the meeting against shortening the catch-and-keep season because they are concerned it may cause some anglers to fish less or harm their business. There have been no business owners who have spoke the opposite.

If there are so many studies that show the opposite, why don't you find them and post them so anglers can read them? And why you're at it, why don't you post which black bass biologists you have spoken to to learn that what you believe holds any water?

We have consulted with many of the top black bass specialists in the fisheries biology arena nationwide on this topic. The MDNR's message so far has basically been 'we have to be careful because we don't know much about bass.' The experts we are consulting with do not have the same shortage of knowledge.

What I posted above is one study the MDNR apparently did not find from Wisconsin although I had no trouble finding it, and the bass biology opinion of the Minnesota DNR according to their website (they have given me written permission to quote it). I haven't even touched on 'pro-tournament angling information.' The above is basic bass biology that is accepted by the vast majority of the states and fisheries biologists in this country. Just look at the seasons. It shouldn't be hard to figure out.

The MDNR is not saying they are granting privileges to a minority at the expense of the resource. They are saying they have not put the effort into bass study in Michigan (although there are a number of bass studies in Michigan too) that it deserves so they feel they have no idea what will happen, but it may be bad. Which also means it may be good or it may be neutral.

They feel they need to manage the majority of our good lakes by providing less opportunity than those lakes could provide because they are worried about the minority of lakes that may have problems. They are also worried about giving the majority of good anglers more fishing opportunity because some poachers may keep walleye or pike out of season. That's not right.

You have demonstrated that you despise anyone who does not have the exact same ethics you have. I do not have the same shortcomings in my belief. I do not despise you or the few other who have shown their biggest problem appears to be a strong bias against anyone they categorize as a bass tournament angler and therefore any opinions you/they associate with those 'egotistic, selfish and shortsighted' anglers.

For me it is about scientific management of our resource to maximize fishing opportunity. For you it is about being against anything bass tournament anglers are for and complaining that the MDNR should continue down the road they are trying to go down which is to manage our resources more for social reasons because some in the general public don't have much in the way of real biological and scientific knowledge of the resources.

Bass are not deer. Nor are they steelhead or walleye. Bass are also not a mystery in most states as the MDNR claims they are to them.

The group that is working for a reasonable change based on nationally accepted bass biology and science does not just contain bass tournament anglers. It also contains major business owners and many non-tournament anglers, even many non-bass anglers. We have petition signatures, surveys, good meeting attendance, letters and phone calls. Much more concrete than the 'numerous people' you've talked to. That's the difference between perception and reality.

You can have your opinions and personal ethics. Me, I'll stick with science and maximum opportunity based on the existing science and not feel guilty or selfish one bit about it. I also know that if something does happen to our bass, I'll be talking to the MDNR about it looking for solutions long before most anglers complain about it on an Internet board... because I care about the bass that are so important to my favorite sport enough to read studies, talk to biologists and attend meetings. Many of the anglers I know feel the same way.

[Santiago]

I misstated one thing that should have read this. Fishing for spawning bass is an ethically despicable act. And, despite your biased arguments, we don't allow targeting of many other naturally occurring fish species during the spawn in Michigan. Salmon and steelhead are introduced species that are supported by huge and expensive stocking efforts. Walleye and pike, on the other hand are closed in all inland waters of the state of Michigan during the spawn. Only the Detroit River and Great Lakes are open because of the sheer size of those systems and the ability of those populations to self-sustain. It is your information that is slanted to meet your needs.

The reason you are not seeing the other 98% is that you are organized, have backing from national organizations, and money. You are the squeaky wheel getting the grease. But I feel that this will be short lived. Many people oppose everything tournament interests would do to our collective resources. This includes small family businesses, lake associations and general riparians, not to mention the vast majority of other anglers. Complaints to law enforcement personnel are on the rise and quantifiable, and not just during tournaments. And tournaments are bad for bass. Just take a walk down the ramp or boat down the channel at Lake Erie Metropark any Saturday during a normal Michigan August and check out all those big, dead bass floating around.:yikes:
But no one from your ranks says anything about bass as an expendable tool used to benefit the very few. That's wanton waste, and I believe it is prosecutable by law. And so it goes, I'm sure, at other sites all over Michigan. One thing's for sure. I am an avid bass fisherman who would protect the resource. My boat will hit the water as many times as yours this year, in waters all across the Midwest because I get paid to be there. And the opinions of those I speak with are as valid, and as scientifically based as yours. But I stand for the majority. Not special interests who would exploit bass.

[shametamer]

I have been following this thread with great interest...have sought as much info and input(bait shops,locals, other fisherman) as i can get...I am neither pro nor con to tournaments....a few thoughts for your consideration.........No 1 although bass are not a species i/we specifically target, they ,each year, end up as the species we catch most of vs. walleye,pike,musky,perch,trout.......No 2 our records(nearly 40 years worth) indicate a size reduction in our catch(certainly not anything more than interesting)..No 3 chatting with all the folks we find opinions to be varied(hardly a barometer,nor a conclusive result)..No 4 have noticed , michigan lakes get greater pressure from anglers from surrounding states than vice versa.......No 5 noting the millions of dollars spent and millions of fry and fingerlings of salmon,trout and walleye planted....cost/return ratio has got to be much greater on these other species..No 6 with the exception of musky or pike we see more bass returned than other species of gamefish.......No 7 noting 'rough fish' have virtually no closed seasons(but most are returned to the lake) they seem to prosper.....No 8 having just experienced a catch and release walleye water, the amount and willingness of fish is unbelievable(not sure how this applies,but....)...No 9 I am sure, a floatilla of 150 boats, sporting deuce and quarter optimaxs,blasting up and down a smaller body of water(not st clair or erie) at full throttle for a better part of 8 hours can't be good for a lakes' environment.....No 10.courtesy,courtesy,courtesy,respect ,respect, respect for others should certainly figure into ANY fishing equation!.............thanks for your time........

[CameraGuy]

I represent the smallest minority...me. Unless someone can prove to me how CIR bass fishing in April and May can decimate a bass fishery, I should be allowed to do so. After all, this country was founded on the principle of individual rights. I'm pretty tired of dumb regulations keeping me from doing what I enjoy doing even though that activity is hurting nobody.

If you can't catch bass at these local lakes then learn more about how to fish for them. I have had little time to fish this year yet almost every time I go out I have a great time catching fish on lakes that some people complain about. "Wah, the fishing is so bad! Wah!" Learn how to be a better angler. The fish are there. When I go out and don't catch much, I blame myself, not the fishery. It's my fault.

There were a few guys in our bass club that would fish eight club tournaments during the course of a year and only catch one or two bass all year. Others, of course, would catch many more. Anglers with more skill are going to catch fish. If skilled anglers catching fish makes angling in our lakes and rivers a little tougher, then get used to it. It's not going to change. Quit whining and spend more time on the water learning your craft.

Live and let live. To quote William Wallace at the end of Braveheart, "Freedom..."

[CameraGuy]

Santiago,
I'm only going to reply specifically to you once because more than that is obviously a waste of time. You are blinded by your prejudiced irrationality.

Tournament anglers, if they wanted, could keep and eat every fish they bring to a weigh-in. They don't. Why? They are interested in maintaining a healthy fishery. They wish to enjoy their hobby just like other anglers. Tournament organizers are always looking at ways to improve the healthy release percentage at every tournament (which is almost always over 90%). Many strides have been made over the years to improve the handling of fish at a weigh-in. It's still not perfect. Some fish die. Some were dead when they were brought in. Some were dead shortly after. It's a very small percentage.

You say, "But no one from your ranks says anything about bass as an expendable tool used to benefit the very few. That's wanton waste, and I believe it is prosecutable by law."

That is absurd. What on earth are you talking about? Why do you despise those who choose to enjoy fishing differently than you do? Are you having a tough time catching fish? Read my previous post.

[Santiago]

Interesting, these threads. It really shows how feverishly the economic giants wish to exploit a public resource, as well as put others at high risk.

Violators. Today, illegal fishing for bass is rampant across the state before season. This is widespread--and there is no argument that can refute this. What is happening is that the DNR is going to give you a longer season on the vast majority of Michigan waters, instead of urging judges to protect the collective resource. It's funny that there is soooo much crying and boohoo-ing despite the fact that angler days will increase exponentially by having a late April opener.

A friend saw a misleading flyer sitting on the counter at a well-known business in southern Michigan that said: "The DNR wants to cut your bass season, so sign this petition." What the flyer did not say is that instead of just 6 lakes open, over 64,000 lakes will be open for an additional month in the Lower Peninsula or two weeks in the Upper Peninsula. (He left without buying the boat. Conflict of interest. Bought one at a less biased company. Ethical businesses would feel compelled to represent a more balanced view.)

If the season opens on April 1, as the current minority interests would desire, more violators would be able to take advantage of closed seasons on other popular gamefish. All violators would win. They could do this under the pretense of fishing for bass during the catch and release season. So particularly sensitive fish species, like northern pike, walleyes, and muskies could be targeted early without protection from enforceable laws. These are all fish that require extensive and expensive stocking efforts to maintain a fishery in most bodies of water across the state. Who would pay for the losses to poaching that occur under an April 1 opener for bass? Asking for an April 1 opener would be self-serving to the relative few who wish to use bass for economic gain, at the expense of all other species. Pointing the finger at those who would violate these laws is ridiculous. It is an epidemic that afflicts bass populations now, by violators who can't wait for the regular season to begin. And it's not the guys in the little aluminum fishing boats who are guilty. Poachers who target closed species under an April 1 opener have great poachings teachers to follow under the current closed bass season.

This is all about catering to the relative few. Less than one-half of 1% of Michigan's angling community has pushed for change, and the DNR is giving it to them, despite the lack of good Michigan science. The economic interests are crying because they want the whole cake, even though the entire fishing community will be forced to choke on it.

Sad, isn't it?

[ABA]

Santiago,

First you just don't get it because your baised towards bass fishermen. Your preaching your beliefs and twisting the facts to support your point of veiw. Your entitled to your view just as much as Bass fishermen are entiteled to theres.

Here are the facts you seem to not get.

First - The DNR proposals are indeed a shorter Bass season. You fail to mention the DNR wants to substitute a larger Catch and release season for a shorter catch and Keep season. Michigan Bass Anglers have united on this issue and feel that the DNR is proposing LESS angling opportunity. Most Bass Anglers DO NOT support these proposals. In fact an alternitive proposal was submitted by the BASS Federation that has less overall fishing days then one of the DNR proposals but has the same number of Catch and keep days that our current Bass season has. The DNR is not supporting this senerio since it is not a reduction in the overall catch and keep season.

Second - Bass season is currently the shortest season of ALL game fish in Michigan. Michigan Bass season is currently one of the shortest Bass seasons in the United States. Yet the DNR wants to shorten to the point where it becomes the shortest bass season. Walleye, Pike, Salmon, Trout, etc all enjoy a much longer season then Bass. Is it unfair or gready for Bass fishermen to request a more liberall season? To have the same angling opportunities that Walleye, Pike, trout and Salmon fishermen get to enjoy? Or to just leave the season as it is? How would trout and Walleye fishermen feel if the DNR propsed a catch and release season and took away 6 weeks of the catch and keep season? How do you think Michigan Deer hunters would react if the DNR proposed to move the traditional season open back a month? Were talking about drastically changing the traditional opener and shortening the bass season. To Bass fishermen this is a big deal.

Third - 43 states have NO closed Bass season because those states biologist have stated Bass do not need to have a season. In fact MDNR have been saying basically the same thing for years. Have you ever read the Michigan DNR study 91-6 ? That study shows there is was no negetive effects to the Bass populations on the 6 early bass season test lakes. It also had a recomendation to increase the Bass season to give Bass fishermen more recreational opportunity. Other states have used this study to show support for an increased Bass season in their home states.

Fourth - Were talking about some serious loss in revenue to alot of buissness from Tackle shops to entire comunities that depend heavily on the traditional Memorial Bass season opener. Were talking about a season so short to could have a negetive effect on License sales which are used to stock Walleye and Trout ....... Not Bass ... Bass have not been stocked in Michigan in over 25 years. The MDNR states they do not need to stock bass because Bass take care of themselves. This is very true, Bass are self supporting and need very little management.

DNR should spend less time regulating fisherman and more time on stocking the waters of Michigan to insure continued growth of sports fishing. This will draw anglers from other areas and increase overall revenue. These anglers fill local hotels; buy food, gas, oil, tackle and services from local communities.

As you are aware dollars from the tourism industry have a great impact on all local economies. By allowing this measure to move forward you are saying: “Michigan does not want to promote tourism, Michigan does not need the tax revenue anglers provide and Michigan does not consider small business owners important.

We need government to get more out of our lives not the opposite.

[jstfish48162]

One thing's for sure. I am an avid bass fisherman who would protect the resource. My boat will hit the water as many times as yours this year, in waters all across the Midwest because I get paid to be there. And the opinions of those I speak with are as valid, and as scientifically based as yours. But I stand for the majority. Not special interests who would exploit bass.[/QUOTE]by santiago



how do you get paid to be on waters all across the Midwest fishing for bass? do you fish bass tournaments? are you a bass biologist? wouldn't that be exploiting bass for your own personal benefit?

come on down to Lake Erie Metropark on a Tournament morning and voice your biased opinions to the whole group of anglers if you really want to be heard. :fish:

[djkimmel]

I noticed 'Santiago' just 'joined' this site on 8/9/04... but doesn't Santiago sound like a clone of a couple other members who spent a fair amount of time telling us how mistaken we are and selfish and greedy and short-sighted, etc etc...

Lots of obvious ugly bias. A definite dark outlook on his/her fellow anglers that makes me wonder how he/she could get any enjoyment at all out of the sport we all enjoy so much?

If .1% was all that wanted a change and the scientific evidence really was so 'overwhelming,' the MDNR wouldn't be going through what it has gone through in more ways than one.

To each his own I say. But a few guys, for reasons they will never admit honestly to, seem to want to say I shouldn't be allowed to fish for bass more though even the MDNR is repeatedly admitting at these public meetings (I wonder if 'Santiago' attended any?) that they DON'T KNOW.

Not that they know it is bad to allow this additional bass fishing that has basically been occuring for 20 or more years already and really is just an opportunity for an unknown number of new anglers to enjoy the fishing also. The MDNR is saying 'since they DON'T KNOW, they want to be real conservative. They feel they need to that their risk models (based on trout models, the studies they chose to review, the biologists they chose to listen to and "management guesses" - a direct quote from one of the co-authors of the SALBRC report) show they should take away some catch and keep to offset an unknown amount of increased mortality due to ?more catch-and-released (an unknown increase according to them).

I asked one of the SALBRC members how they exactly determined that they needed the 3rd Saturday in June to offset the additional 4 weeks of catch-and-release (that will only be partial 'increase') and his answer was we picked the 3rd Saturday in June because it was an already known date having been used in the fishing guide for Lake St. Clair. I asked if he would clarify that the date was a scientific choice or a social choice and he answered social.

He said the MDNR was trying to balance scientific management and social management. He admitted a large part of this process is trying to decide what the general fishing public will put up with as far as 'complicated' regulations and new regulations. So I'm being told I can't fish for bass as much as I could scientifically because some anglers may be upset the regs are too complicated or confusing. The MDNR also admitted that they are proposing regulations that are targeted at the smaller lakes that MAY need more help with regs that will be for all lakes and so withhold opportunity on lakes that could handle more bass fishing because they believe an unknown number of anglers may be upset with 'complicated' regs.

So the MDNR is not living up to their own mission of providing the optimum fishing opportunity that the resource can safely handle. And a few anglers, who don't read studies or talk to biologists with any regularity, and did not attend the meetings and hear how little our MDNR admits they know about bass or have done for bass, try to say that a tiny number of selfish, shortsighted bass anglers are just trying to ruin 'everyone elses' bass fishing future. Like I'm going to ruin the future of what I spend most of my waking life thinking about or doing?

That attitude by these few doesn't even match what our conservative MDNR is saying in their paper, studies and at the meetings. The MDNR is so anxious about the kind of angler who believes things that aren't necessarily backed by science and might aim future complaints at the MDNR without having any real idea who, what, where, when and why something did or didn't happen, that they have used scare tactics at the public meetings to say things like anglers will fish a fish out before accepting the fish needs help, and post a quote that says something like 'fish managers who think fish recruitment will stay high as fishing increases are foolish' and only later admitted (when we made them realize we were not that unknowledgeable) the studies these came from all pretty much dealt with commercial fishing for market harvest NOT sportfishing.

But they did respond after admitting this 'it could happen in sportfishing too.' Yeah. And I could wake up the Queen of England tomorrow...

The way sports anglers yell whenever the fishing gets tougher... They will be the first to tell the MDNR something needs to be done if and when it needs to be done, and I personally would expect the MDNR to use their expertise to investigate and respond to any real problem that happens, not withhold fishing opportunity and create an artificial enforcement problem because something 'might' happen!

[ESOX]

I noticed 'Santiago' just 'joined' this site on 8/9/04... but doesn't Santiago sound like a clone of a couple other members who spent a fair amount of time telling us how mistaken we are and selfish and greedy and short-sighted, etc etc...

No IP match to any exisiting member. I checked that a while ago, as I was curious myself.

[flip69]

if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!!! i see no reason for changes concerning bass in any lakes i fish. i never posess bass it's always catch and release and i enjoy it.

[TBone]

I noticed 'Santiago' just 'joined' this site on 8/9/04... but doesn't Santiago sound like a clone of a couple other members who spent a fair amount of time telling us how mistaken we are and selfish and greedy and short-sighted, etc etc...

I wonder who you might be talking about? :p

I have decided to give others a choice to voice their opinions and stay out of the debate. If others want to look it up they are free to do so. There is only so many ways to say that there is a lot of good science out there to support protecting the spawn and very little in the literature that supports a more liberal season in Michigan.

It's pointless to get into it again. :bash:

I am sure the squeaky wheel will get the grease and we will have to wait and see how the next decade treats us. I hope your right DJ, 'cause I would love for my children to enjoy the same fishery we have now (even though I think it could be much better than it currently is.)

[djkimmel]

I actually wasn't talking about Tbone (I wouldn't expect that of you). Thanks for looking ESOX. I've never tried to hide my identity so I can say what I want and feel invisible and immune. People can find out all they want to know about me real easy. I don't mind. I think too much invisibility leads to more venom than normal on Internet sites.

I even told the MDNR that they could give out my number if people want to call and yell at someone. Wouldn't be the first time it happened nor the last.

I don't feel happy that maybe a totally new member has joined here just for the sole purpose of fighting the 'opposite side.' But, as I say that I realize I've been accused of that too and it is part of why I joined. I have contributed in other ways too though not as much as on this topic obviously. Should be no surprise that as much as this issue has meant to me for almost 20 years that I put some effort into it. Maybe Santiago will get involved in other ways too on this site after this 'battle' cools off?

Regardless, it's still somewhat of a shock to me that there was almost no attendance at many of the public meetings by non-tournament bass anglers. I think some in the MDNR actually wanted to hear that many bass anglers would support somewhat more complicated regs. Some additional suggestions were made and some were even accepted as realistic by the MDNR that might surprise people on all sides of the issue (ex: It was asked that if St. Clair is so large and productive that walleye and pike do not need season protection, why would bass? The MDNR answer from a SALBRC co-author: "I don't see why bass couldn't open up catch-and-release on January 1 either on St. Clair and not have a closed season since the same applies to them as to pike and walleye on a lake that large." But no one literally proposed that in writing as a separate issue...)

Only one additional scenario was presented in writing (by the Michigan BASS federation) - 'Scenario 8' which says leave the traditional season as is and allow legal catch-and-release from opening of pike and walleye (specifically says last Saturday in April Lower Peninsula and May 15 Upper Peninsula) until Memorial weekend along with keeping the April 1 catch-and-release opener on the 6 'test' lakes. It's a compromise that many organized bass groups will accept.

I think the MDNR is no less confused on what most bass anglers will accept or want now than they were before the public meetings because they aren't sure how to interpret the low participation.

[djkimmel]

I hope your right DJ, 'cause I would love for my children to enjoy the same fishery we have now (even though I think it could be much better than it currently is.)

I agree with you that some lakes could be better. The MDNR agrees too, they just explained at some of the meetings how and why they have had to put emphasis on the other species and that they have not given bass the fair attention it deserves based on its popularity.

I would think everyone can agree that the part of the ‘white paper’ that was good news was the MDNR admitting they need to put more effort into bass and should. It remains to be seen how that can be done with the present budget/staff, but you have to start somewhere. There are lakes that provide really good bass fishing right now, but there are lakes that need help – some short term and some long term.

I was not the only angler who said at these meetings that bass anglers understand some lakes need help and can’t provide any more bass fishing opportunity (I suggested some type of ‘exemption’ list). But the MDNR needs to look at those lakes somehow and figure out what they need and then figure out how to provide what they need. That was actually a fairly common topic interwoven with possibly the most common complaint at many meetings of the over-treatment of aquatic plants (which is actually under the DEQ, not the DNR). Jet ski’s were probably the 2nd most talked about complaint.

There were some really good discussions on ways the MDNR and bass anglers could start to work together more in the future to make bass fishing better and provide more opportunity.

[ESOX]

.


I don't feel happy that maybe a totally new member has joined here just for the sole purpose of fighting the 'opposite side.' But, as I say that I realize I've been accused of that too and it is part of why I joined. I have contributed in other ways too though not as much as on this topic obviously. Dan, that is what makes us what we are, is the ability to agree to disagree in what is hopefully a constructive manner. As far as your contributions to the site, you sure don't have to defend that......heck, I have e-mailed you for help with posts where no one who had already read the thread seemed to have an answer.....and I knew you would, you did and promptly posted the info.:)

[shametamer]

another nickels worth from me DJ! I have attended 1 meeting, just finished 22 days fishin in august 1 more tomorrow.....talked to DNR folks at local headquarters in a dozen counties and hundreds of fisher people.this years fishing is probably a poor year to judge anything by. I've brought 2 to 300 bass to boat..everyone released..i never specifically target them....size seems less than great,but i doubt the fishing pressure has much to do with that......I do avoid lakes on bass tourney days, but i also avoid lakes on walleye tourney days(leelanau,this weekend ,as example)....I did have the pleasure of fishing deer lake basin(eyes)..its artificials only,catch and release(mercury contamination).this lake produced keeper size walleye at such a fantastic rate it was unbelievable(fastest catch rate of keeper fish i have ever experienced)..So i for one, sincerely doubt, a catch and release program would have any negative affects on bassin.......Per the tourney guys, well i think, all of us(not just tourney folk) could use a refresher course in manners, courtesy and boatmanship... i also feel an increase in license fees may be in order, the less savory,law breaking, poaching crowd needs to be watched,ticketed and controlled a little better....we need more officers for this!........expanded seasons would certainly be welcomed by resort owners, bait shops, motels and small businesses ,i'm sure....a longer bass season seemingly makes sense..more money generated, more money invested(infishin,DNR policing, stocking ,research), greater profits for all in the fishing community(catch rate, water stability,local economys) evidently, lotsa folk see only.'.perceived negatives',opposed to reality!

[Santiago]

Okay, here's the big question. Scenario 8 represents exactly the same fishing conditions that currently exist, and here's why. You are asking for a Saturday before Memorial Day opener, like now. You are asking for the 6 experimental lakes to open April 1, like now. And you are asking for a catch-and-immediate-release season, statewide, from last Saturday in April through Memorial Saturday, which you already have in the form of unenforceable regulations. Under your Scenario 8, substantially, nothing changes. Yet there are some plausibly noteworthy bass politicians debating feverishly on this thread.

So now I'm really curious. Really, what's the big deal? Why change anything? What can you honestly say that you stand to gain?

[ABA]

Santiago,

Do you even understand what is going on here? You should have went to some of these meetings the DNR put on so you could understand what is actually happening here.

The DNR wants the Bass season to start at the same time as pike and walleye starts state wide. This comes from pressure they have received from biologists, politicians, enforcement officers, anglers and judges. This has been asked soley for enforcement issues and more angling opportunity.

That is why there is a bass season change suggestion going on...... because the DNR wants it.

The DNR does not want to just open Bass season up to catch and keep, so they are suggesting catch and immediate release from the Last saturday in April. They are also suggesting a reduction in the catch an keep season to offset this increase catch and release season. Most all bass anglers in Michigan feel this is less angling opportunity and are against it. They would rather see the DNR leave things alone or not take angling opprotunity away. Many feel this will be the result of loss revenue to Michigan. Many do not want the traditional Bass season opener changed.

Okay, here's the big question. Scenario 8 represents exactly the same fishing conditions that currently exist, and here's why.

Thats not true at all .....

What senerio 8 represnt is ..... Bass Anglers are saying if the DNR wants to open Bass season the last Saturday in April to catch and release then ok go ahead but do not mess with the regular season as we know it. It's not the same. Bass Anglers in Michigan feel senerio 8 is more angling opportunity because it gives without taking away. Many Bass anglers would preffer the DNR just leave things alone but it is the DNR who is pushing for the Last saturday in April opener. Almost all bass anglers support senerio 8 because they feel it gives both the DNR what the DNR wants and Bass fishermen what bass fishermen want.

Here is the thing your missing....

1) The Dnr wants the change not bass anglers.
2) The DNR feels they need to offset the 4 weeks of catch and release they give by taking away 4 weeks of catch and keep season.
3) 93 % of Bass in Michigan are released anyway so an increased Catch and release season does not need to be offset. Per Biologists.
4) If the DNR must add this catch and release season anglers are not willing to give up any part of their catch and keep season, or their traditional opener.

Like I stated ..... it is a tradition, it generates revenue, license sales and tax dollars and anglers do not support a change in the traditional bass season because there is no need for it. Even the DNR admits it..... but they want it anyways.

[Santiago]

It's interesting how you conveniently lump all bass anglers into your group. I am an ardent bass angler, who in fact, had a pretty good day on the water today, thanks. And all fish went back into the lake.

Also, you assume I did not attend any meetings, and that I lack the information to make good decisions. This is unwise. Further, who I am is not important, but I should say that I in no way work for government or its agencies. Call me Average Joe.

Now that you mention it, I guess I DON'T understand what is going on here. You said that bass anglers did not bring on this process to change regulations for increased opportunities?

That is why there is a bass season change suggestion going on...... because the DNR wants it. 1) The Dnr wants the change not bass anglers. This is the exact opposite of what I've been led to believe, based on three sources. Kimmel proudly states that he has been working for regulation change for the last 20 years. And the SALBRC report states, in two seperate sections written in different years, that this very change process has been brought on by organized bass lobbyists (that would be you, right?)

1. "Over the years, bass angling groups have expressed a desire to extend the fishing season for black bass." 2004, p.2.
2. The 1988 regulatory change for an experimental catch-and-release season for bass "was brought about by organized pressure from bass fishing interest groups seeking expanded bass fishing opportunities in Michigan." p. 48

All this suggests that you and your minions have lobbied for change. But now you say you don't, and wish to tag the DNR for giving you what you've asked for?

Again, your Scenario 8, unquestionably, offers no real change from what we currently have.
Scenario 8 represents exactly the same fishing conditions that currently exist, and here's why. You are asking for a Saturday before Memorial Day opener, like now. You are asking for the 6 experimental lakes to open April 1, like now. And you are asking for a catch-and-immediate-release season, statewide, from last Saturday in April through Memorial Saturday, which you already have in the form of unenforceable regulations. Under your Scenario 8, substantially, nothing changes. Yet there are some plausibly noteworthy bass politicians debating feverishly on this thread. But let's say you can't have Scenario 8, just for the heck of it.

So why oppose the shortening of catch-and-keep? Are you concerned that the average angler might not be able to keep a few bass for dinner during the early part of the season?

[ABA]

Santiago,

Here let me quote myself for you.

This comes from pressure they have received from biologists, politicians, enforcement officers, anglers and judges.

If you notice the word anglers was in there as to where some of the pressure came from.

You use the word CHANGE. Anglers did not ask for change. What anglers asked for was more angling opportunity. The DNR scenarios do not offer more angling opportunity when in fact they offer less. It is the DNR who brought forth these scenarios with out one single bit of support from any organized angling group. You can’t say we asked for this or brought it forth if it is not something we support. In fact when we asked to be part of the process we was denied. This is not what the anglers proposed or asked for. This is solely brought forth by the DNR and it is solely what the DNR wants.

Santiago, I was at nearly every DNR meeting and the ones I was not at Dan was. Except for a few in the UP. At all of those meetings I think only 5 people supported the DNR when hundreds did not. Hundreds of the attendees felt that the DNR proposals offered less angling opportunity. Almost all anglers supported scenario 8.

Michigan bass anglers coalition had 4 meetings where we asked concerned anglers to come out and voice their feelings on these proposals. We averaged about 35 people per meeting. We talked about the proposals at these meetings and came to a unified decision on how to handle them. At those 4 meetings NO ONE was in favor of the DNR proposals. Yet you want us to believe that only my small group feels the way I feel?

You like to say scenario 8 is the same as the current season but it is not. If it was the same then what’s the big deal and why are you so set against it? What is wrong with scenario 8? The only problem with scenario 8 is that Anglers get more angling opportunity. In all other scenarios they get less. The DNR does not want to give us more angling opportunity they want to take some away.

One thing I notice you like to do is take a sentence and twist it to fit your point of view.... personally I take offense to the way you try to say I said this or I said that. When in fact I said nothing to the contrary.

My name is at the end of every post. Everyone knows who I am. I am not sitting behind a screen name making false statements and twisting the facts. You say you were there. Fine let us all know who you are..... Call me anytime I would be more than happy to debate this further over the phone. However I am tired of this discussion because of your biased twist on things. I refuse to further this conversation just so you can twist my words. It is not cute and it is unprofessional. Like I have stated you’re entitled to your opinion and I am mine. I have thousands of signatures on petitions that support my view. Yet in your mind I am a small group trying to impose my beliefs on the angling public. I have the same beliefs that most all bass anglers nation wide share. You’re entitled to disagree but understand you are the minority.

[Santiago]

What anglers asked for was more angling opportunity.
Your words.

I just don't see how 64,000 more lakes for two additional weeks in the upper peninsula and an entire month in the lower peninsula can possibly mean less opportunity. It doesn't make any sense.

As far as cutting possession season by three weeks, I'm not sure how that could devastate economies. The season won't be closed, will it? Anglers would still have the opportunity to catch-and-release, right? Noone is saying that you can't travel and fish and generally contribute to business. Is it right to assume that just because there are three less weeks of possession season, that all those expenditures would just shoot up into some vacuum?

I don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something that's not being stated?

[ESOX]

I don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something that's not being stated?The concern is that there will be less time for catch and keep, which doesn't allow for tournaments, as all bass must be immediately released diring C&R season, not hours later after weigh in. I really don't think that anyone is really concerned that there will be less catch and keep season for people to keep those yummy bass :sick: as table fare.

[Santiago]

The concern is that there will be less time for catch and keep, which doesn't allow for tournaments, as all bass must be immediately released diring C&R season, not hours later after weigh in. Thanks Esox. But I'd like to hear it from some of the guys who were at the meetings and who flatly explained that the DNR proposals meant less angling opportunity. I'd like to hear it from them because this is what is being plastered all over the media statewide, and I'm not sure that it is true.

How about you Director? Or Dan? Would you agree with Esox's statement here? That your only concern is not that there is less angling opportunity, but that your tournament season would be reduced?

For the sake of clarity, I think all Michigan anglers need to know where you both truly stand.

[CameraGuy]

Some people enjoy fishing in bass tournaments. That's how they prefer to utilize their leisure time in the outdoors. The DNR would take away three weeks of their activity without a single scientific reason to do so.

The DNR's proposals are based on emotion, whim, speculation, but mostly bias. Instead of looking at studies objectively, they scour them for bits of information that will support their pre-determined position without presenting all the facts. The information they presented in the meeting I attended was so digustingly negative towards more angling opportunity, that you have to wonder what country they think they are ruling and if they understand the purpose of their existence.

The DNR has been extraordinarily negligent in studying bass over the years despite the fact that it's one of the states most popular game fish. Yet, despite the DNR's lack of effort and the claim some people make that bass fishing out-of-season is rampant, the bass fishing in this state is outstanding. If fishing out-of-season is rampant, then many people must wish to enjoy that recreation. Since it doesn't seem to be hurting anything then why not allow it legally?

Proposal 8 is fine, but personally I would prefer the CIR season to be open from Jan. 1 to the Saturday preceeding Memorial Day, including Lake St. Clair. The DNR seems to want to make regs. easier to enforce. Wouldn't that make it easier?

[Santiago]

Thanks for posting Camera, but I think you missed my point. I'll repost it for all interested parties.I just don't see how 64,000 more lakes for two additional weeks in the upper peninsula and an entire month in the lower peninsula can possibly mean less opportunity. It doesn't make any sense.

As far as cutting possession season by three weeks, I'm not sure how that could devastate economies. The season won't be closed, will it? Anglers would still have the opportunity to catch-and-release, right? Noone is saying that you can't travel and fish and generally contribute to business. Is it right to assume that just because there are three less weeks of possession season, that all those expenditures would just shoot up into some vacuum?

Here's what you said:The information they presented in the meeting I attended was so digustingly negative towards more angling opportunity, that you have to wonder what country they think they are ruling and if they understand the purpose of their existence.
The DNR is negative toward angling opportunity? I don't see how. You are referring to a decrease in bass angling opportunity, right? In order for there to be a decrease angling opportunity, the DNR would basically have to close an existing season. And we all know they're not. They're simply saying that you can't keep them in possession.

Fish all you want. Travel 'til your heart's content. Support Michigan business. And fish, fish, fish some more. It's as American as apple pie.

Wouldn't you agree with this Director?

Dan?

Honestly now, can what you've been telling all those people through media and meetings really be about the DNR decreasing angling opportunity?
Hello . . . this was your thread.

[djkimmel]

There are about 11,000 lakes in Michigan, not 64,000. Is that gross exaggeration an indication of how well you pay attention and retain information, or just an attempt to stir things up?

Did you speak your opinion at a public meeting for the record?

Is your purpose here just to make sure everyone knows your disdain for 'bass tournament' anglers and the way they happen to enjoy bass fishing?

Do you have anything of value to add to the discussion or do you just want to irritate anglers you don't like while bringing out some truth you think is being hidden even though all of this has been gone over on this board before?

This is simple so you can get it straight, quite a few anglers already fish for bass out of season as you have stated (68% of dedicated bass anglers - many who did not belong to a bass club, but belonged to other clubs, and 44% of non avid bass anglers according to surveys). That demonstrates a significant demand for spring catch and release bass angling by many more anglers than there appears to be in the ranks of bass tournament anglers.

This behavior will continue as all human behavior like this continues (remember how well the 55 mph speed limit worked?). If the MDNR can't show this is harmful to our bass - and they've said they can't - and we can all see for ourselves that we can still go out and catch bass - then why not make it legal and end a lot of unnecessary issues? Why not work on the lakes that may need help and allow the fishing opportunity on the lakes that can handle it?

Right now, bass lakes that need help generally aren’t getting it. The MDNR has said they now want to change that, which would be nice. Bass anglers tend to avoid the lakes they won’t do well on anyway so I wouldn’t expect that to change much whether they can legally fish them or not.

If the MDNR can’t show they need to take away ANY opportunity from ANY angler, why do that? The MDNR says they don’t know, but they think it might be a good idea to offset an unknown increase in catch-and-release bass angling with less catch-and-keep. They admit they only picked the date of the third Saturday in June to SHORTEN the catch-and-keep season not because they had any accurate estimates on mortality to offset, but because there is already a 3rd Saturday in June opener in the fishing guide for Lake St. Clair. Interesting since an MDNR study found that there was no scientific support that Lake St. Clair needed a later opener than any other Michigan lake. There’s that science people say they want.

If the MDNR was taking opportunity that you practically lived and breathed for away from you without involving you from the beginning of a move to do that, I can imagine you’d want to know why. And if they told you because they think it may be a good idea even though they don’t know it is necessary, I wonder that you might have a problem with that. But, in this case, you don’t see it as taking away from you, but away from anglers whose way of enjoying fishing you apparently don’t care about, so it’s okay.

I haven’t hunted in over 15 years, but I still support it because many do enjoy it and there are not enough good reasons not to let them enjoy managed hunting. I don’t feel I have the right to tell the hunter, “hey you can’t hunt because I don’t hunt” anymore than I feel I have the right to tell another angler, “hey you can’t fish that way because I don’t do it or like it.” That’s what the anti groups do. They use the same kinds of arguments to try to prove we shouldn’t be allowed to hunt or fish at all.

Some non-tournament anglers at the meetings made it clear that they were smart enough to realize it wasn’t the same thing to trade opportunity from the desirable months of the summer for days in the winter that are not in high demand. Most tournament anglers said they were not trying to have a longer catch-and-keep tournament season, but they could not support losing any more opportunity during our already very short existing season – a season that is basically only about 4 months long (June – September) since we aren’t allowed catch-and-weigh-in tournaments in late April and May.

I’ve never tried to hide what I support and why, OR who I am. I’m confident in my beliefs and the information many fish biologists have given me.

[CameraGuy]

Santiago, I didn't miss your point, but you certainly missed mine. I'll try one more time.

Some bass anglers prefer fishing in tournaments more than any other activity. Taking away three weeks of the catch-and-keep season will take away the opportunity to participate in their favorite outdoor recreation. As long as there is no evidence that that activity is harming anything, then they should be allowed to participate in that activity.

I am puzzled about the reason so many people want to control the way others enjoy the outdoors. Fishing and hunting enthusiasts seem to always be fighting amongst themselves about the "right" way to hunt and fish. Why can't we accept that each individual has the right to participate in an outdoor activity as long as it it legal and each person enjoys different activities? As it was pointed out to me years ago, it's the reason why Baskin and Robbins has 31 flavors.

We are all different and should be treated as individuals. That's also why I completly reject any argument that contains the phrase, "...only a small percentage of anglers..." or anything similar. The smallest minority in this country is the individual and this country offers protection of the rights of the individual.

[Santiago]

Dan:



I guess I should clarify my 64,000 to 6 figure. I did a search on the web and all of the popular Michigan information sites said that there were 11,000 lakes in Michigan. Unfortunately, you must have missed some information in the SALBRC report, which I’m not sure you gave an objective perusal, even though it does not support your objectives. Anyway, in the Appendix that summarizes your 91-6 study, this line: “More than 99% of Michigan’s 64,796 inland lakes are smaller than 300 acres in surface area (Breck 2002).” In fact, I double checked it twice before posting, but that what it says on page 48. Regardless, whether you use Breck’s 64,000 figure or your 11,000, either one is exponentially more angling opportunity (your term) than six. It’s what you’ve been asking for for 20 years, right?



I’m curious. Your last post stated that “If the MDNR was taking opportunity that you practically lived and breathed for away from you . . . “ Are you talking about yourself here? What about the guy who makes a legal catch and wishes to keep a few bass for dinner? Do you promote this individuals desire to use Michigan bass as a food item? Also, because you are so good with numbers, I'd like to know how many active bass tournament anglers are in Michigan.



As far as my identity, you may have my name, but you have no idea who I am. Also, there is nobody that knows my screen name. So, by whatever illegal means you have obtained this confidential information, it has been given to you against my wishes. Realize that you will be the first questioned if my name gets out, as I have more than adequate connections to law and enforcement. Second questioned will be the administrators of this site. Any acts from cowardly individuals to my property or family will see quick and substantial retribution. But good for you, Dan. It shows how big money and special interests will do everything to quash that which goes against it, despite reason.

But I'm not done yet.

[djkimmel]

Santi, you’re no more ‘Average Joe’ than I am. Or maybe we are all ‘Average Joe.’

I don’t know exactly what your issues are but they seem pretty personal. Is this issue really worth that? You think someone is paying my expenses and that I’m a ‘hired gun’ out to win the destruction of our bass future for a ‘secret society’ or something?

No one is paying my ‘expenses’ other than my bi-weekly paycheck I get from my day job just like everyone else. I’m one person who used to represent the BASS federation and now I represent myself. I happen to have several groups and a number of individuals with similar desires who have asked me to represent them at meetings and in other ways on this issue. No one has given me a penny, although I have received 2 free bottles of Coke, a free bottle of water and one free dinner at Burger King.

I think that falls a little short of a lucrative lobby position.

Let’s talk about ‘Average Joe’ for a minute. Gary Towns of the MDNR coined this term btw, not me. I’d really like to know who ‘Average Joe’ is and how anyone knows exactly, using actual facts and figures, who ‘Average Joe’ is and how. There was a poll a year or so ago on this site that went approximately 50% - 50% for and against more catch-and-release with the existing regular season. What 50% was Average Joe? On every other site there’s been a poll, well more than 50% were on my side.

As far as 64,000+ lakes, 11,000 is the number of lakes that are quoted and have been quoted as long as I’ve been alive in Michigan. The only way there are 64,000 lakes in Michigan is maybe if they counted mud puddles after a hard rain. They must be counting farm troughs or something.

Why the MDNR suddenly feels the need to come up with more ‘lakes’ for this issue is most likely so they could just come up with a really high percentage. If people want to believe there are now 64,000+ lakes in Michigan, that’s their right. Doesn’t really matter to me if there are 11,000 or 64,000. What matters to me is where do most bass anglers fish and what, if any relevance does it have to this issue?

Here’s as good a place as any to clarify once more that I have been asking (along with plenty of other bass anglers of many types) for MORE bass angling, not the same or less. I’ve been asking for ADDITIONAL catch-and-release bass angling in the spring in ADDITION to our EXISTING catch-and-keep season.

By taking away opportunity I now enjoy, along with anyone who wants to keep bass to eat on their Memorial weekend holiday or keep that once in a lifetime trophy – both of which I don’t have a problem with – been going on for decades and we still have bass, the MDNR is not giving more opportunity.

If from your perspective, you feel the MDNR is giving you more, than good for you. You must be happy. I’m happy for you, but your desires and expectations are not the same as mine. I happen to believe that Michigan bass anglers are not getting the amount of legal bass angling they could, and a good number desire. I will continue to believe that and work for it. I don’t expect anything from it other than more bass fishing and less hassles.

I happen to believe there is no biological reason for the MDNR to take away from our already short tournament season. If other bass anglers and businesses also keep their opportunities because I and others likeminded are able to keep the MDNR from TAKING AWAY opportunity, so much better. If all this is about is an attempt to reduce the number of bass tournaments, then why take ANY opportunity away from anyone else when tournaments are already separately regulated and something could be done directly about bass tournament numbers that doesn’t reduce others’ fishing opportunity. Of course, I have to wonder how .01% of anything can be worth getting worked up over?

Yes, I am talking about anyone who feels the MDNR is TAKING AWAY their bass fishing opportunity. If you want to believe that only a couple hundred or couple thousand bass anglers are able to cause all this to happen against the MDNR and the ‘overwhelming majorities’ opinions… well I can’t help you much there. It takes a lot more than 1 guy to get something like this moving. It takes a lot of scientific and popular support too. If it weren’t there, the MDNR wouldn’t be going through this. They would just say no up front.

Recently, a ‘group’ of anglers in Massachusetts demanded that the MA DNR close their bass season during the spawn to ‘protect’ the bass. The MA DNR said no. Their bass populations are healthy they said and no reason to TAKE AWAY opportunity.

I don’t know how many tournament anglers there are in Michigan. I know there are over 17,000 BASS members and BASS surveys show on average, half their members fish tournaments. I know how many members the various in-state tournament groups have and they range from clubs of 6 to organizations of 5,000.

Doesn’t really paint the real picture though. The MDNR catch and release study showed 68% of frequent bass anglers regularly fished for bass in the spring. How many frequent bass anglers are there in Michigan? 50,000? 400,000? I don’t know and neither does the MDNR. A lot more than just those that fish bass tournaments though.

The study also shows that 44% of all anglers stated they were already in the habit of fishing for bass before season. Know how many anglers are in Michigan? According to USFWS statistics, that’s about 1.8 million. Were talking real numbers here. Read how the surveys were done and you’ll see many non-bass-tournament anglers were included. This could mean well over ½ a million Michigan anglers already fish for bass out of season. Even if you go just by bass anglers, it could mean over 200,000. Many more then there are bass tournament anglers and more than enough interest to get the MDNR to move on the issue.

Personally, I have to say you must be someone who has participated in violent strikes before or something. Why the heck would you even think anyone is going to do something to you personally over this issue?

I recall some tempers and heated words at the meetings, but I don’t recall any physical violence or property damage. C’mon. Get real. This is fishing, not life and death. I actually had an MDNR biologist tell me he’d “fight me to the death” over proposal two and all I remember thinking is I thought I was there to speak my opinion, not fight a WWF cage match. Sheesh!

I’m not going to ‘fight’ anyone or harm anyone else’s property and I don’t expect that problem for me either. We’re all supposed to be adults here. I will use every legal and available means I can to pursue my goal of MORE bass fishing for Michigan anglers without LOSING ANY opportunity, but ‘attack’ someone or their property? I’m almost 3 decades past Junior High.

Another reason why I don’t play games by hiding my identity so I can feel like I can say anything to anyone and have no consequences. I’m not worried about consequences. I’m confident in the information I’ve been given and what do I have to worry about? Someone won’t like me? I’ll get over it somehow. I have plenty of friends. I’m even friends with people I don’t agree 100% with on everything!

I’m just one person with a goal. Heck, maybe I’m ‘Joe Angler?’ Anyone who wants to find out will have no problem doing so because they know who I am and how to contact me. I could have made up a new screen name a while back and completely hid who I was and that I enjoy bass tournaments knowing that some peoples’ bias and propensity to try to simply categorize everyone as just this or just that would color their receptiveness to my posts, but I’m not a dishonest person. People are going to be the way they are and I can’t change that. I never expected to change everyone’s mind. That also won’t change the facts of bass biology and management that anyone who WANTS to can find out on their own just like I have.

I don’t know who you are and it doesn’t really matter. You don’t know me either. If you did, I don’t think you’d write some of the things you did. That being said, I do know your ‘message.’ The same old tiring message I’ve heard before over my years of being active in outdoor issues, and speaking at public and government meetings. I’ve been accused of being a high paid lobbyist or of working for the MDNR so many times (depending on what side of the issue the accuser happens to be – actually, it kind of sounded like maybe you’re accusing me of being a member of some kind of ‘bass mafia?’), I probably should get a job with the MDNR as a lobbyist (I’ll pass on the ‘bass mafia’ though). I still wouldn’t have any more ‘big money’ than I do now, but at least I could stop trying to tell people “I’m not getting paid for this and I don’t work for the MDNR!”

You have your opinions and I have mine. Why don’t we save everyone some time and not post on this topic unless there’s something NEW to add? If you really are new to this board, you might want to go back and read the zillion words already posted on this topic in other threads over the last year and a half. I’d prefer not to be reposting the stuff that has already been posted anymore. I think that would make people happy.

[noheadlikesteelhead]

i have fished many tournys with kimmel. and the only thing i can say is if you want a longer season dan, utililze the current season which goes to dec.31 thats what i do.

[ESOX]

Different strokes for different folks. I don't need the lure of winning money at the end of a tourney to enjoy fishing.

[bass-finaddict]

I think some people are missing the point about all of this. I only know what i have read from different forums and the DNR's report. They are trying to take away part of the catch and keep season because they feel it necessary. However those same people that want to take it away offer no reason for that. The DNR makes it sound like the tournament anglers are the reason they have to do this, but again offer no evidence or proof that they have to.


I too don't need the lure of a paycheck to enjoy fishing, but just like baseball, it makes it a lot more fun to have another team to play against!

[shametamer]

Team? geez thought the fish were the adversary....lol.......

[bass-finaddict]

This year its been like playing against the Yankees starting pitching...I can't get a hit!!:lol:

Seriously though, i've grown as an angler by leaps and bounds by joining tournaments. I've learned new techniques, presentations, how to study a lake map, how to better care for the fish after they've been caught. The information you can learn from some of these guys that do tournaments all the time is enormous.

[CameraGuy]

Different strokes for different folks..

Esox, exactly my point.



[/QUOTE]
I don't need the lure of winning money at the end of a tourney to enjoy fishing.[/QUOTE]


Nobody is asking you to. Just respect the right of others to enjoy the outdoors in the manner they see fit. Some people like to go bowling or golfing once in a while. Others like to join leagues and have the potential of competing and winning a few bucks or prizes.

Live and let live. To each his own. Different strokes for different folks. They're all the same thing. Respect the rights of others to enjoy their lives the way they wish.

[CameraGuy]

Santiago,

You are way out of line. You might want to calm down before you blow a gasket. A caffeine reduction might be in order. Dan wouldn't hurt a fly if it was eating his lunch.

Why are you getting all worked up about this? Why do you appear to hate tournament anglers so much?

The SALBRC paper is a piece of garbage that isn't worth the paper I printed it on. Why do you keep refering to this document as if it is your bible? If you can't see that it only uses parts of studies that support the DNR's pre-determined opinion then you are as biased as they are. They completely discard any facts that would support opening the season year around, and there are volumes.

Also, if a guy wants to keep a few bass for lunch, WHO CARES?! Is that what this is all about? You want to eat a few bass? Go right ahead. Who is stopping you?

I would be real interesting to find out why you are against tournaments so vehemently. Would you consider expounding on that subject?

[Santiago]

I am opposed to tournament fishing, true. But I think there needs to be a distinction here. I have many friends that fish in tournaments, and they know well my position. When I was younger, I fished in a few tournaments myself, and with fair success. But when I saw what the lure of those scraps of money did to people, and how they changed when their egos got bruised, and how they berated and harassed other people that preferred to eat their catch, it made me realize that it was the tournament setting that reduced them to such a state. We have great structure in our glacial natural lakes, but every year I find placed structure laying in productive spots that wasn't there a week before so that someone could have advantage--and they're not bluegill spots. From stories, I've heard how guys make artificial holding elements out of various substances to attract fish, yet that can't be seen with sonar; or how fish are "placed" for later removal, with considerable success. Cheating occurs at all levels, and it's the competitive element that drives them mad. Not long ago, I was in the presence of a Freshwater Fishing Hall of Famer, a man who made loads of cash off bass and the fishing industry. He said that the best thing a person could do for bass was to eat every one he caught (and don't even ask for a name). He was dead serious. At first, I was shocked, and quite pissed really. Now I just feel sorry for him. As I spend a good part of my free time on the water, I have seen the effects of recent tournaments on bass, particularly in August and early September. I have pictures of piles of dead bass on ramps (not in channels near ramps, not in weeds near ramps, but right on the concrete) where there were none the morning before. That would create serious controversy (the most dead bass I've counted post-tournament is 23).

These are experiences that I've had with tournaments. Not something someone said. Not rumors. But real, "I've seen it myself" stuff.

Though I oppose tournaments, I do not hate the anglers (as The Director said). As I said, they know where I stand, but we manage to get over our differences to compare notes and observations. I respect them, and all anglers who have that kind of devotion.

As far as what's going on with my issues on this thread, it's not about Dan, or The Director, personally, but about what they are trying to do by lumping all bass anglers together and saying that what the DNR is doing is all bad, and that all sportsmen should support them in their cause. It's not right. For people who don't fish tournaments, the suggested DNR scenarios represent substantial opportunity, regardless of MY ethics. And as I see it, this represents serious opportunity for tournament anglers to break away from all that tarnishes the system. Bob Gwidz said that the DNR just doesn't get it. But I do.

You know, this really isn't about tournaments, generally speaking, but a tiny aspect of it: weigh-in. If you guys love to compete, then the challenge you face is not straining against a shorter possession season, but to make use of what's offered. You must admit that immediate release tournaments would go a long way to improve bass survival and public image (and please, spare me the numbers I've already seen).

One of my highly influential contacts believes the weigh-in dilemma is largely about mistrust between competitive anglers. Another says it's about money, and corporate visibility--that is to say, if they can't get at least free advertisement out of the weigh-in crowd, then why should they cough up the prize money? I also know that a portion of this is about ego, and the ensuing high one receives from besting his peers. For good fishermen, this is big fun. For the mediocre masses of tourney guys, this is a hit to the pride. Conflict ensues when money is taken and pride is ripped. Ultimately, I believe, the fish loses.

When it comes to bass, I am a purist, if there is such a thing. Usually, this term is reserved for trout fishermen. But I'd rather see six- and seven-pounders as commonplace. They're out there, but not in numbers, and only in select waters. A trophy fishery will only happen if possession is closed year 'round. But I don't even pretend to expect that all fishermen, or even many, would follow this suggestion. We all have different agendas, and that's great, but I wouldn't even consider pushing this on others. So when I read in the newpapers, and in the magazines and hear on the radio how the DNR is at fault for screwing Michigan bass anglers, I can't stand it. You guys have done a great job of selling your tournament agenda to the masses by painting the DNR as bad guys. I'll tell you something, I know many of those on the front of that SALBRC report. I've also talked candidly with more than a few of those listed in the Appendix from states all over the country. These are good people who care about fish. We charge them with protection, first and foremost, and they deserve better than they get. Do they screw up? Sure do, but they put their pants on one leg at a time just like every peeper to this page. But to say that the report is crap, just because it doesn't fit your agenda, is completely short-sighted and probably ignorant.

It should be no mystery to you that when you make broad, misleading statements, you are opening yourself up to scrutiny. I've picked apart a good part of your argument to expose just a portion of what this is really about: tournament interests, compared to Michigan's angling masses, comprise a special interest group, as I said in my initial post. They are linked to large corporate sponsors, also in my first post. Potential economic drops are entirely in the hands of tournament fishermen, not the DNR. There are more incriminating connections that will continue to lead you to deeper water, and thus depreciate your cause. I could continue by using the very numbers you've provide to do this.

My identity remains mine, for now, while other issues are explored.

[Santiago]

Oh yeah. I'll be out for a few days because I'll be fishing 'til my hands bleed. So I would appreciate at least a little help if I'm getting blasted and can't respond.

[Santiago]

Could it be that my Judas is another average Joe?

[bass-finaddict]

Santiago, you said:

" As I spend a good part of my free time on the water, I have seen the effects of recent tournaments on bass, particularly in August and early September. I have pictures of piles of dead bass on ramps (not in channels near ramps, not in weeds near ramps, but right on the concrete) where there were none the morning before. That would create serious controversy (the most dead bass I've counted post-tournament is 23)"

You have to remember it is the choice of tournament anglers to release these fish alive, they don't have to. They could keep everything for dinner but choose not to because the love the sport and want to ensure a better fishery.

Not to put words in your mouth, but aren't you implying that you are against anybody that keeps a fish? It sure sounds like it. You won't see one tournament guy who insn't upset when they see or lose a fish. It's there future, kids future.

You also said: "But when I saw what the lure of those scraps of money did to people, and how they changed when their egos got bruised, and how they berated and harassed other people that preferred to eat their catch, it made me realize that it was the tournament setting that reduced them to such a state."

Sorry my friend but you are doing the same thing here. You are are against tournament anglers because they have a very small percentage of dead fish after a weigh in, when you know for a fact they are trying there best to keep these fish alive.

As far as the cheating argument: People cheat everyday, is it right? Hell no, Can we stop it? Probably not? Cheating is everywhere, but it's not a valid argument as to why you dislike tournament fisherman.

Steve