A Heathen on the Holy Waters

[chromium]

I took a friend out fishing on the Holy Waters this weekend. His wife just died at the young age of 34 and he needed something to help clear his mind. We put in at Keystone and floated to Stephans Bridge. Mike had never fly fished before and I was excited to get him into his first trout. I got him going on the nymphs and he landed a 10” brookie. Later in the float, the hatch started and I set him up with the 2WT and a black caddis. He had a riot pulling on fish after another.

Here’s the sad part. The last half of that float, I took nothing but crap from the locals about having my drift boat on that section of the river. I heard it all; “The rivers is not up enough to have that boat on here” to “Get that piece of ***** of my river” to “You don’t belong here.” Most of those pretentious bast**** stood on their property and nailed me with their “opinions” of drift boats on “their” river. Then, I see an Ausable Riverboat come by me. I got some comments from them too. But I couldn’t help but notice that it was dragging a rather large wad of chain down the river behind him. I bit my tongue but as he practically hit the side of my boat, I wanted to drop my 30# pyramid right through the bottom of his boat. As I approached Gates Lodge, there were two men sitting in back of one of the rental cabins. They proceeded to nail me with “Get off our river, you don’t belong here” and various other obscenities. Well, I’d bit my tongue long enough by this point and I let fly.
I continued to the take out and loaded my boat, and then drove to Gates Lodge. Upon entering, I questioned the management on what kind of jack-aases they allow to stay there. This is where I learned that the fishermen on the “Holy Water” are generally against drift boats. It makes them have to move when we come by. They say that they don’t want it to turn in to “another Pere Marqutte”!! And, these drift boats are believed to be more destructive on the river in comparison to the AuSable River Boats. Bull*****. How about that mighty AuSable Riverboat dragging his chain? I’m sure that’s great for the ecology.
So, I left pissed off. I decided tom stop at a party store on the corner to get a beer. Hell, I even had an old man in the parking lot at the party store giving me crap about the drift boat. In a very condescending way, he let me know that he prefers the “Old fashioned way”.
I guess I can fish the Holy Waters on foot for ten years and be fine, but god forbid you come up there in a ClackaCraft. So, if you plan on floating the Holy Waters, prepare for the pretentious, holier than thou, snooty, self-righteous tooth pick floatin’ MF’rs to be coming out of the woodwork. What a shame.

Makes me want to dump my life savings and open a ClackCraft outlet in Grayling right next to the fly factory. Maybe free test floats. Every boat comes with a bow mounted chainsaw to help you get by the AuSable boats.

So, this is the image of fly fisherman that my friend took home with him. Another shame. And they say they don’t want it to turn into another Pere Marquette. LOL It already seems like Tippy Dam to me……….

[ESOX]

That is pathetic. Too bad you had to listen to those imbeciles.

[quest32a]

What a bunch of dicks.......... I don't think i could have been as patient as you.

[ESOX]

I was wondering how long they would have stuck around shouting insults if John simply pulled over towards shore and gotten out......Would you want him P.O.'d at you????:yikes: :lol:

[Shoeman]

Next time take the Sled. **** 'em

Good thing Rusty doesn't have a forum on his site.... lol

[deputy865]

that is assnine if that was my dad he would have snapped. whe the "H" does it matter it is not there lake you should of just told then "you can't tell me what to do" i feel bad for your freind from his wife to that bad image of flyfishing woder if he'll ever do it again in that river :confused:

[tangleknot]

Just imagine the comments you would have received prior to the new paint job, lol! :rant:

[chromium]

Just imagine the comments you would have received prior to the new paint job, lol! :rant:

Or if I would have had my retarded brother with me.... :coco:



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[Shoeman]

Or if I would have had my retarded brother with me.... :coco:



-

Swinging Nuke eggs tipped with a crawler
:lol:

[tangleknot]

Or if I would have had my retarded brother with me.... :coco:



-


Oh, you mean your identical twin, LOL! :evil:

[Kevin]

Suggested 2005 Paint Scheme:
http://www.dailyceleb.com/thumbs/tn.DC.94355.jpg

[Hunter333]

What a bunch of morons!! Shoe, that would be too funny to see "Swinging Nuke eggs tipped with a crawler":lol: :yikes:

[chromium]

I was wondering how long they would have stuck around shouting insults if John simply pulled over towards shore and gotten out

I was as close as I've ever been to doing just that Paul. Glad I didn't though.

[plugger]

Maybe we should have an outing, Ive never drifted the holy water.

[trout]

Invite a CO with you next time :)

[CCC-Fisher]

I've previously enjoyed the Gates experience 100 %, but now the bloom is falling off the rose, so 2 speak. Will tell him what I think of his behavior the next time I see him. Will check his web site 2 see if he takes e-mail !
I will join ya'all in a float trip also.

[quest32a]

Someone say outing? I will bring my spinning rod...

[Ralph Smith]

I agree with plugger, an outing through the holy water, and with as many drift boats as we could muster, and chromium leading the way :smile-mad

[Banditto]

Honestly I wish one of the weekly Michigan sportsman oriented magazines would feature a picture of this weeks winner of the "unsportsmanlike" contest.

Put an 8"X10" picture of the person with the story and let everybody read about how much it hurts the whole community.

[dinoday]

A large group float of the Holy Water sounds like a good idea. And everyone using spinning rods(with a fly on of course!) That would have the purists up in arms :yikes:
I'm a purist too. Pure fisherman!!

[Steve]

Wow, I missed this post earlier. That is just terrible! I wonder if a DryFly is too big for "their" waters as well. Hell I had mine on my roof at Gates once. I wonder if they were whispering about me the whole time I was there. That whole AuSable drift boat elitism is a bunch of crap. :rant:

[The Junkie]

OUTING! Im in! Do you think they'll care if I bring my bass boat. lol :D

[trout]

5000 tubers with spinning rods..........
CHARGE!!!!!!!!!

[snakebit67]

trout LMAO......just picturing it it my head.

[quest32a]

5000 tubers with spinning rods..........
CHARGE!!!!!!!!!
Im game... :bash:

[Linda G.]

I'd love to cover the story for as many publications as I could get it printed in... ;)

I won't name names, but I have also experienced elitism from guides, property owners and outfitters/retailers in the Grayling area...I can understand trying to keep an area pristine, therefore, putting some restrictions on the waters and surrounding lands, but what I've seen amounts to downright snobbery...and it seems to be getting worse.

I think a lot of people need to remember who supports the folks in that area when they have a battle on their hands like the Mason Tract episode...everyone, not just the AS river boat folks or the fly rod folks, or their immediate neighbors...

I got the distinct impression not too long ago that what this really is is a subtle effort to close many sections of the rivers in that area to everyone except a few select guides and property owners...

I'd love to come along on that outing, anyone got room in a boat for me??

Just name the date... :lol:

[troutbum64]

I've got a pontoon boat(TU Madison no less), and no problem casting wooly-bugers with a spinning rod. Let me know when and I'll clear the calander.

I also have a big problem with the snobbery on the river, but I'm not as patient as others and would have voiced my view one way or another. ;)

[Hunter333]

An outing of this magnitude would be a RIOT!! Can you imagine all of them as we all pulled up with driftboats, floatboats, bassboats, pontoon boats, spinning rods, crawlers, etc??!! Just thinking about brings a smile to my face!!!:yikes: John, you take the lead of course :)

[quest32a]

spinning rods, crawlers, etc??!! :)

I believe that strech is restricted to flydunking only. But you can flydunk quite effectively with a spinning rod. Just leave the crawlers at home.... LOL

BTW, Ill bring my dryfly. I am seriously game for this, sounds fun. We would need to clear it with John, but i think it could be interesting.

[Steve]

I've got a seat in my boat Linda and I'm sure many others do as well. I've stayed my share of nights as Rusty's and I don't think he would say something like this himself, especially if there happened to be a large portion of his paying visitors who happened to show up one weekend in something other than AuSable river boats.

[gunrod]

You're right Steve. Rusty had no problem taking my money for some flies and a cases while mine and John's drift boats were parked in the lot. He even had a drift boat parked at his place when we were there. For him to go along with anything pertaining to limiting drift boats would be a bunch of crap. Wonder how he would feel about it if he starting losing business for it.

[tangleknot]

Since fly fishing is my true love as far as methods of fishing(but not limited to), I must admit that I have often been irritated by comments in regards to fly fisherman being snobs, elitests, etc. However, after John and our buddy had their experience this weekend, I can see how many people would come to that conclusion if they have witnessed actions by people like this. It's an embarassment to me as a fly fisherman and to sportsmen in general. I've decided that it's not that fly fisherman are A**holes but instead there are some A**holes who fly fish and as a result, a method of fishing gets labeled in the process.

I guess I really do not get what their objections were to a drift boat floating down that section?????? It cannot be over the tradition of an Ausable River boat, is it? It cannot be about the width of the river or depth? :dizzy: Maybe we didn 't pay our club house dues, lol! :help:

Trout, too funny! Floatilla on the charge! The CO idea would be great and I would imagine quite a few harassment charges could have been issued.

[Steve]

Are float permits required on the section of river?

[YPSIFLY]

I'm all for a "Flotilla Outing". I think Gunrod has two driftboats. Maybe Quest and myself could man the older one. John and I would be more than happy to chuck our empties at the naysayers.

Chromium has much more self control than I could ever hope to bear. I could see myself beaching the boat and being a bit more "upfront" in my reaction.

Small Man's Syndrome. :lol:

[Ruler]

People really do need to grow up! How nice of them to do what they can to ruin your trip because they think that your boat isn't as good as the other boats.

I wonder how my 14' deep-v with 25 horse engine would be evaluated by these people... ;) I'd have to fish with a spinning outfit and lure (can't fly-fish worth a $#!+), so I'm sure I'd be branded as an infidel ASAP.

It would be hilarious to videotape their reactions as 50 drift boats, bass boats, etc come by their precious property. Even more hilarious would be sending copies of said tape to the various law enforcement agencies. :)


I think that in general, a larger percentage of fly-fishermen are snobs than non-flingers. (I didn't think I was gonna make it off the PM when I contemplated actually keeping a king! :o ) That's just from my experience though, much like the reactions I'd get if I were to say that women in general don't know how to drive. ;) :D

[Shoeman]

It all boils down to their "precious little water"

I have floated the same section 3 times and have received "the look", but in all the majority of the property owners were very pleasant, even offered advice as to which flies had been producing and joined us in conversation right in their back yard.

Sure the Au Sable has its history with the long boat, but to make it a requirement is absurd. I'm quite positive the opponents are just the purists renting a bed and basically a wannabee stewarts of the environment. (LOL)

I had been warned by our own Foersterhunter (Kevin) about this situation. He owns one of the toothpicks and a driftboat. He's had rocks thrown at him in his drifter. Then I find out that all of the riverboats utilize a chain in order to drift. Hell in some states the usage of a chain is illegal. I would think a chain impacts the riverbed to a greater extent than the few dabbles of an oar in a drifter.

Is it the size of the boat? Can't be. Those boats are 20+' and our drifters under 17. It must be disturbing the ambiance and tranquility of their little slice of rented heaven.

[OTIS]

I don't fly fish but I am in. I will bring the Zebco 202 with 12pound test and a Pike bobber, Just put a little ole fly underneath that. :p

[GVSUKUSH]

http://www.bartswatersports.com/catalog.asp?C=277&P=8172

I got room for 3 more guys in my boat!!! :lol:

[STEINFISHSKI]

Sorry to hear such crap.:mad: A video camera would be perfect to zoom right in their face and get a good ID for harrassment charges.

A flotilla is definately in order!:evil:

[kbkrause]

http://www.bartswatersports.com/catalog.asp?C=277&P=8172

I got room for 3 more guys in my boat!!! :lol:
There you go GVSUKUSH, just drag a cooler behind on a rope...

http://www.bartswatersports.com/images/Product/largeimage-8172.jpg

[GVSUKUSH]

A cooler filled with PBR and the Beast! Only the classiest lagers for a classy stretch of river. ;)

Maybe even some Swishers.....With the plastic tip of course!

[ESOX]

My buddy and I will bring up an 18'6" tunnel hull jon boat we have rigged for flats fishing if the date is doable. That ought to make a few eyes bug out.LOL
Would have room for passenger or two too.:)

[kingfisher2]

John, I'm really sorry your friends float was basically ruined with this type of behavior. I think Sara said it well, "There are same A-holes that are fly fisherman....."

I'll tell ya, they are lucky your retarded brother wasn't there John......a 6 pound weight attached to an enhanced Nuke Egg (tied on a shark hook) would of flung their way.

One thing to keep in mind...if it wasn't for idiots like that, we would have a much more difficult time looking good ourselves.....

BTW Shoe, it's a little easier to get the locals advice on fly types when you're passing them a jug of wisers..... :lol:

I'm surprised you didn't break their glasses or ribs John....... ;)

I think we should all carry water guns to combat such behavior.....I'm in!

Marc

[beer and nuts]

You wouldn't have that sort of BS if they were garden hackle, spinner fisherman!!! :) :) Holy waters, ya right, holy than holier!!!! Nice to see a post on how elite these type of waters WANT to become.....

[maxemus]

:grouphug: :bowdown: :woohoo1: What idiots!!

[Molson]

One thing to keep in mind...if it wasn't for idiots like that, we would have a much more difficult time looking good ourselves.....



Very true statement. Something like this could be a very good statement. But, if this happens, remember that everyone needs to be "legal" in all aspects to make the correct impression.

I don't fish the Holier Than Thou waters, but I do fish downstream, and as of August last year I have a driftboat to go with my float tubes of many years.

I remember a comment on a "web site" that was mentioned here, from several years ago... it went something like, "there is great fishing at other times of the season besides the hex hatch, come on up". Well, my experience in the part of the river I fish is this... I never see those gator looking wood toothpicks until the drake & hex appear. And, I have also been rewarded by chain dragging thru my fishing lane, wood toothpick purists casting to fish that I was standing over and trying to determine the best float for "first cast" success.

One more time from me... keep it all on the legal and up-and-up side, and you will make a bigger impact.

Tell me when to be there :lol:

[gomer]

I fish the Au Sable several time a year and quite a bit of my time up there is spent in the holy waters. I am in no way taking the side of the "wood toothpicks" but think about it, the holywaters is NOT big water by any stretch of the imagination. Say you are standing in the middle of the river and around the bend comes a hyde with oars sticking out the side, making the craft almost as wide as the river. I do also think that those pricks should be beaten for giving you so much grief though.....

and i am not too much of a fan of the whole chain deal

[Shoeman]

I just forwarded a link to Rusty.

I highly doubt that he could change everyone's attitude toward drifters, but he should be aware that the "Elitist" mindset is falling on deaf ears. What really bugs me is that in the last year I have spent close to 500 bucks in the joint only to have one my friends get an earful by some of his patrons sitting on a bench smoking cigars and looking like movie stars. (Rin Tin Tin taking a *****) :lol:

[chromium]

First off, I'd like to thank everybody for the support on this topic. Not all of the people up there are a-holes, but that river has it share of the pretentious.

I have an opinion about the organized float of that river. My initial thoughts were to float that stretch as soon as possible just because I knew it would piss them off and that I had every right to be there. I suppose that's what everybody is feeling right now. The Holy Waters is a very prestigous piece of water that dates back way before my days (Even Whit's :tdo12: ). IMO, to mass float that river would go against what this site stands for. Sure, vengence would be ours but that's not what we're about.
Awareness is our most powerful tool in this case, and we have a great start. Linda, maybe we could float that stretch during the Hex hatch. I'm sure the Pretentia Dimwitta will be hatching as well. :evil:

So, everybody go float / wade that stretch because it's some beautiful water and because you can. And if you're wading and you see me floating down toward you, don't feel the need to move, I can go behind you. It's easier to do when you're not dragging chain and that's what makes those driftboats fun.

They can't stop the "Short Bus" :mischeif:

[Splitshot]

This type of behavior has been going on for a long time in many areas, but the holy waters are probably the worse. If it wasn’t for the Internet a lot of people who just like to fish would not be aware of this righteous attitude of some of our fellow sportsmen. Using the term “sportsmen” in the broadest sense. The main problem with many of these people think the holy waters are really “Holy”. In that area Rusty Gates is their icon and his guides are minor deities.

It gets more complicated when you toss property owners into the mix as they think they have even more privileges to the river since they pay taxes on the land adjacent to the river. Of course because they live there they know much more about the river, the fish the ecology and what is best for “their” river. Toss in a big dash of arrogance and self righteousness and you can see why they think they have the absolute right to tell you how you should behave on “their” river.

In the movie “A River Runs Through it”, a statement is made at the beginning of the film that there is a fine line between fly fishing and religion. Honestly I have no problem with either, but when you brew the two together you get this strange concoction.

Last time I looked the Au Sable was a navigable river open to every citizen to wade, canoe or otherwise make use of. The fish belong to anyone who can catch them although in this case the “Brethern” have lobbied the state to change the rules so they can be caught over and over and only with a fly.

Believe me it is the same in the other “Quality” waters too, except not quite as blatant. People who own land on rivers, make the mistake in thinking they have more rights to the rivers surrounding their properties than other citizens. Not true!

Bringing up a flotilla might make you feel a little better in the short term, but why waste a good fishing weekend to catch dinks. These elitist groups around our state have been kicking our collective asses for years by organizing and playing back door politics.

Don’t like it, well get ready for more. Members of these groups and guys like the head of TU are quietly working to take more of our prime waters and in my opinion are just waiting for apathy to set in and then continue to take more of the best waters in Michigan for themselves. “Protect the resource” you know!

The truth is, “No kill” does nothing to help improve or protect the fishery and flies only and artificial lures have the same impact on the fishery. Someone needs to lobby the DNR to change all flies only designation waters to artificial lures only and do away with this no kill idea. Change them all “No Kill” areas back to the two fish limit over 15".

Once that is done you won’t hear all the chatter about protecting our waters from self serving religious groups. The science is there and the mandate to use hard science is there, now all that is needed is some organization to make the powers that be act scientifically. So instead of wasting all the energy and money for this in your face float, take the time to write the DNR, the NRC and your state senators and representatives and don’t forget the governor.

In fact you don’t even have to organize, just write personally. If enough of you take the time to write, some change will come of it. Many of the people who make the decisions already know some of their decisions are not in the best interest of a majority of fishermen, but when they hear just one side of the story over and over with no opposition they just figure; “What the hell”!

[Buddy Lee]

This type of behavior has been going on for a long time in many areas, but the holy waters are probably the worse. If it wasn’t for the Internet a lot of people who just like to fish would not be aware of this righteous attitude of some of our fellow sportsmen. Using the term “sportsmen” in the broadest sense. The main problem with many of these people think the holy waters are really “Holy”. In that area Rusty Gates is their icon and his guides are minor deities.

It gets more complicated when you toss property owners into the mix as they think they have even more privileges to the river since they pay taxes on the land adjacent to the river. Of course because they live there they know much more about the river, the fish the ecology and what is best for “their” river. Toss in a big dash of arrogance and self righteousness and you can see why they think they have the absolute right to tell you how you should behave on “their” river.

In the movie “A River Runs Through it”, a statement is made at the beginning of the film that there is a fine line between fly fishing and religion. Honestly I have no problem with either, but when you brew the two together you get this strange concoction.

Last time I looked the Au Sable was a navigable river open to every citizen to wade, canoe or otherwise make use of. The fish belong to anyone who can catch them although in this case the “Brethern” have lobbied the state to change the rules so they can be caught over and over and only with a fly.

Believe me it is the same in the other “Quality” waters too, except not quite as blatant. People who own land on rivers, make the mistake in thinking they have more rights to the rivers surrounding their properties than other citizens. Not true!

Bringing up a flotilla might make you feel a little better in the short term, but why waste a good fishing weekend to catch dinks. These elitist groups around our state have been kicking our collective asses for years by organizing and playing back door politics.

Don’t like it, well get ready for more. Members of these groups and guys like the head of TU are quietly working to take more of our prime waters and in my opinion are just waiting for apathy to set in and then continue to take more of the best waters in Michigan for themselves. “Protect the resource” you know!

The truth is, “No kill” does nothing to help improve or protect the fishery and flies only and artificial lures have the same impact on the fishery. Someone needs to lobby the DNR to change all flies only designation waters to artificial lures only and do away with this no kill idea. Change them all “No Kill” areas back to the two fish limit over 15".

Once that is done you won’t hear all the chatter about protecting our waters from self serving religious groups. The science is there and the mandate to use hard science is there, now all that is needed is some organization to make the powers that be act scientifically. So instead of wasting all the energy and money for this in your face float, take the time to write the DNR, the NRC and your state senators and representatives and don’t forget the governor.

In fact you don’t even have to organize, just write personally. If enough of you take the time to write, some change will come of it. Many of the people who make the decisions already know some of their decisions are not in the best interest of a majority of fishermen, but when they hear just one side of the story over and over with no opposition they just figure; “What the hell”!

:yeahthat: Excellent post.

[kingfisher2]

Wow Ray........are you on this years ballot? Nice read!!!

Marc

[FREEPOP]

:yeahthat: Excellent post.

......and you would expect less from the infamous Splitshot? ;)

Hi, Ray

[fishinlk]

Glad to see cooler heads prevailing!

A mass float is definitely NOT the thing to do. Yeah the guys encountered were real a***s' but like you there are a LOT of others who like to fish those waters and either drove up or flew in from other parts of the country on a given day and those are the people your going to hurt. You may get your revenge on a few but you could very well be ruining someone elses rare chances to hit the water and were would that leave their opionions of driftboats? I know where mine would be after running into that. Float traffic starts getting too heavy and pissing off the wading fisherman and they'll get like Montana and they'll start regulating them by daily permits.

Oh and hi Split!

[mondrella]

Sorry to hear about the way your trip went.

Ray has nailed it in his post.

[kienbaumer]

Well i'm not a purist by any means, but the majority of the time i'm using fly rod when fishing for trout. That said why can't there be section of flys only no kill? Just like the bait fisherman there are fly fisherman taking the other extreme. i bet alot of fly fisherman are saying all trout water should be no kill flys only, like the wormdunkers saying it should be open to kill and bait. guess what wormdunkers have more trout water. Now you say its just because fly fisherman don't want to fish with the wormdunkers. From the sounds of this thread the wormdunkers don't want to fish with the flyfisherman. Should they add more special regs? hell no its fine the way it is. Then you say the no kill flys only is the best water......well groups like anglers of the au sable and TU made them that way. i could be wrong but i have heard of wormdunkers unlimited. Also how can you fish out of a drift boat in the holy waters i can see using it for transportion but i've seen some drifts go down it and there isn't alot of room. I personally think it would be easier to walk the damn thing, but i'm not going to tip your boat over if you float on by. Finally there are two types of fisherman I hate, wormdunkers and fly fisherman becasue they both get in my way.

[chromium]

Finally there are two types of fisherman I hate, wormdunkers and fly fisherman becasue they both get in my way.

You're intelligence (or lack there of) astounds me. Sounds like you're getting in your own way. :16suspect

[tangleknot]

Also how can you fish out of a drift boat in the holy waters i can see using it for transportion but i've seen some drifts go down it and there isn't alot of room. I personally think it would be easier to walk the damn thing, but i'm not going to tip your boat over if you float on by. Finally there are two types of fisherman I hate, wormdunkers and fly fisherman becasue they both get in my way.

Transportation, getting the opportunity to see an incredible stretch of river, relaxation, the obsessive and captivatiing joy of rowing, the ability to fish as a family.......I could go on and on why we like to fish from a drift boat on the Ausable and many other rivers. If it was damaging, not feasable, unethical, etc., we would not do it. We fish from the boat and get out and wade.

As far as your last sentence, it clashes with your first sentence in the beginning of your post.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by kienbaumer: "guess what wormdunkers have more trout water."

There are no trout waters that are open to using bait, and prohibit the use of flies.

[Splitshot]

I’m not surprised at your attitude and I don’t mean to pick on you, but it seems to me that you did not read what I wrote, at least with an open mind. First fly fishermen can fish any river or stream with their preferred method. If your preferred method is bait fishing there is currently 100 + miles that you cannot fish.
I love fly fishing, but it is a waste of time if the fish are feeding on bait. You would probably call me stupid if I was casting night crawlers during the “Hex” hatch and you would probably be right. Well guess what I think when I see someone fishing dry flies when the conditions are like they were this weekend.
I am not a worm dunker nor am I a fly fisherman, I am just a simple fisherman and when I fish, I am trying to catch them and I don’t care if I look good doing it.
If you just wanted to catch trout even 100 years ago you would find the flies only sections of rivers were in the top 10% or productive trout waters to begin with. That’s why they are the best, not because of “Anglers of the Au Sable” spent a few weekends working on them. If you were better informed, you would know that many people who help improve the habitat of our rivers don’t even fish. For your further information 40% of the members of TU don’t fly fish at all and that is according to TU.
Let’s just say you are young and new to fishing and have a lot to learn. According to DNR fisheries biologist “No Kill” actually does more harm than good, especially for brown trout. If some fish are not harvested they will over populate and as the numbers grow, the average size of the fish will diminish. On the plus side it does make it easier for guys like you to hook a nice one once in a while. My advice is instead of trying to make our pristine rivers into hatchery like areas, save us the grief and just go to the ol trout pond and pay by the inch
Catching a trophy brown trout in a “No Kill” area is much the same as shooting a trophy buck in some fenced in area. Looks good in the picture, but it just don’t seem right somehow. And finally, if you prefer wading just do it, but don’t criticize someone who might want to take kids, inexperienced fishermen or just take a nice ride and a hardy lunch and fish in style because that is ignorant.

[flyfsh4trt]

I was hoping I could break in the new downriggers/rods! :lol: I would have been trolling streamers of course...

[gunrod]

I am not a worm dunker nor am I a fly fisherman, I am just a simple fisherman

There lies the greatest obstacle for sportsman in this state. We divide ourselves into sub categories and make it easier to conquer us when it comes to legislation. It's the same in hunting (pro-QDM, anti-QDM, bow hunter, rifle hunter, traditional bow hunt.......). Now the fishermen are drift boaters, AuSable boaters, waders, float tubers, worm dunkers, hardware and fly fishermen.

My hope is someday we come together as sportsmen (or outdoorsmen, hell even outdoorsperson to be P.C.) before we lose what we have because we are divided amongst ourselves.

[Steve]

Please let's not turn what was one of the first unifying threads on this site in a long time into a devisive one pitting "worm dunkers" against "fly flingers" and "hardware slingers". I also do not want Rusty to think that we have anything against him. The first time I stayed at his place I wandered down to the fly shop to sheepishly ask if there was someone I could hire to take me upstream for a long wade back down. I guy said hop in my truck and lets go. Turns out after some discussion it was Rusty. Rusty is a down to earth guy and has helped me other times since then with spotting as well.

[HATCHBOMB]

Hello -

Getting back to the original topic...

I can understand people being a little put off for seeing a drifter in that section. It's small water for that size boat, but it is legal to use it there nonetheless. There actions are inexcusable.

You must be a good rower to make it thru there! I floated the same stretch in a 11" hyde during the opener a few years back and it was tight for that boat. We only had a few grumbles from wading fishermen that had to move a bit when we came through.

Next time someone wants to give you an earful, drop the anchor and get out and the watch them STFU!!!

HATCHBOMB

[kienbaumer]

First of i'm just debating the issues...I'm not trying to offend anyone i'm just taking the another point of view. By taking shots at me was like all the wade fisherman and property owners taking shots at you.

Splitshot,
You stated early in a post that fishing in no kill area was like hunting on a trophy farm. I don't quite get that. In the no kill areas of the au sable they do not plant its all wild. In a trophy farm they put animals in a enclosed area. I understand that there are areas that are kill areas that aren't planted as well, but areas that are planted, to me, are more like trophy ranchs. People put fish into an enclosed area and kill them. Also if no kill areas make the section of river worse off then why do you feel bad about catching a fish out of that section of river? It should be more of a challenge and a greater reward if all those studies are right.

[Splitshot]

Last year my largest brown trout a 26" fish came out of the no kill area of the PM. I had a friend with me from out of state who loves to fish salmon. I walked down to a deep hole I know, but someone was already there so I asked if he minded if I fished the top of the hole. On my second cast 10' in front of me I hooked this big brown.

In the rivers I normally fish you would never hook a fish like that under those circumstances. That was a dumb fish. Many fish once hooked will become more wary but some never learn and can be easily caught over and over which gives them a chance to grow big. That’s what makes it so easy. One of your buddies caught a 23" fish and he knew it was 23 inches because one of his buddies had caught the same fish in the same place a few days before. Personally I don’t want to catch the same fish over and over again and that is why I try to fish any particular section of a river only once a year.

I don’t consider the dinks they plant in our rivers as trophies. Anyway if a planter lives to be 15" he is wild and has adapted. Almost all cold water rivers have natural reproduction but most are supplemented plantings. Brown also migrate long distances and that is why some of the guys who fish the holy waters are crying because some guys upstream and downstream are catching some of their easy fish when they do migrate.

I’m glad you brought up the challenge issue, because if you fly fish for the challenge, the real challenge is catching a decent trout on a fly in waters where everyone can fish. Some people would rather catch a trout on a fly, than catch a trout. That is fine, but what I object to is lobbing the DNR to take our prime waters and turn it into a trout hatchery stream.

Fly fishing started because frustrated bait fishermen sometimes watched trout rising and couldn’t catch them on bait. Back then, no self respecting trout fisherman would release a legal fish because a big part of the tradition of trout fishing was enjoying the fine eating the trout they caught provided. I am all for conservation and releasing fish you don’t intend to consume but to many it has become an obsession. Fish are like any other crop. If you plant a field with corn, you can harvest all the corn and you can have another crop next year, as long as you take care of the land and re-seed it. The same applies to fish of all type and game animals as well.

Humans are at the top of the food chain, not above it. There is a difference.

Steve,

Rusty Gates must be a nice guy or he wouldn’t be in business for so long. Everyone I know says the same thing about him. He is well know for his stance on protecting the river as are many other people. He is almost an icon and if you mention the holy waters most fly fishermen will associate those waters with Rusty. Most of the time protecting his river protects his bottom line too. I just wonder if he would be in favor of changing the designation of the holy waters to artificial only and a two fish

[kienbaumer]

Splitshot
I can see were you are coming from. I'm not flydunker or a wormdunker am just a dunker. When i fish steelhead salmon the fly rods go bye-bye. That said, I still would rather fish for naturally reproducing trout than planted trout. As for a planter living to be 15" and adapting, well they still don't have the coloring of a wild brown, i personally don't think they fight as hard and when you catch one they are usually missing a fin or something. Also that 23" brown was caught twice yes. By my buddy first then I caught it about a week later. I did not go to that spot looking to catch that fish i just happen too. We new that fish was there for about a month because we hooked him a number of times. This fish became a challenge to us that is why we kept going to that spot. After he caught it the first time we still went there because its a good run, it was not of only nice fish taken out of that spot. We tagged 3 other fish over 20" out of the same spot. This spot is in a KILL zone.

Ok so if these fish get caught over and over again the fish gets wary like you said. Then it should be harder to catch them persenting more of a challenge. I bet alot of those pigs you tag have been caught before anyways. Besides on the au sable the biggest fish are located below the holy waters anyways.

Finally i not say i'm not trying to say you wrong and i'm right. I'm just stating my opinion....Tightlines

[Splitshot]

No problem, and I didn't know you caught that fish too, but that doesn't matter. We would all rather catch wild fish and I am sure some of the fish I catch have been caught before but 99% of the time I can't tell.

Different strains are colored differently, but brown trout of one strain will mate with other strains, so after a while it is impossible to tell what is what. If you can tell by the way they fight, you are a better man than me.

There is only one river in the state that has never been planted that I know of so all other rivers have had some fish planted. By the way there is nothing wrong with catching a fish over and over, I just have a different preference. I also know lots of different places that have big wild trout, but it has taken me a lifetime to find them.

If you only have a couple of places to fish, and the word gets out the crowds will come and your forced to find new ones. My advice is to try new places in the next month as it is the best time of the year instead of going to the same few spots over and over. If you pay your dues someday your biggest decision to make is where to go to catch a trophy fish.

Again about the challenge deal, some trout never learn and are easy to catch over and over. In streams where you can keep fish the easy ones get removed first and then it becomes a challenge. One good thing about no kill areas is it helps newer fishermen gain confidence in their abilities which might be the most important aspect of fishing.

Sorry I got off the topic. I said about all I have to say on this issue for now. John and Sarah, I feel bad about this handful of people that put a cloud over your weekend especially since we all work so hard to get to enjoy them.

[Erik]

Wow reading all that made my eyes ache.
Is the "holy water" really that great? I've never been there, but if it's to small for a drift boat it must be pretty small.

[tangleknot]

but if it's to small for a drift boat it must be pretty small.

It's not too small for a drift boat. :) Maybe if I was on the sticks it would be an issue, lol, but I'd have the same problem on the MO. :lol: ;)

[Erik]

I've encountered the same attitude on other rivers. Maybe not as bad as chromiums fiasco, but it happens. Bet you guys know what I'm talking about. The river is shallow and theres only one spot to get a boat through, and someones fishing in that spot. I've been in both posistions at one time or another. Sometimes I'm the boat, and sometimes I'm the wading fisherman. I can tell you from experiance that it is annoying no matter which person you are. However getting mad doesn't accomplish anything other than raising your blood pressure, and taking the fun out of what your there for.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, try not to let this kind of stuff bother you. It's going to happen eventually no matter which side your on. The only choice a person has in such a situation is how they react when it does happen. I'll bet a 20 dollar bill that if you just let it pass without saying anything that ten minutes latter you will have forgoten the whole ordeal. However, if you let it get to you, and blurt out some profanity, or just plain get loud, I'll garantee you'll be dwelling on it for the rest of the trip. Thats what I think anyway.
Hope everyones weekend goes well!
See ya all on the river, and I swear I'll try my best not to piss anyone off whether I'm wading or floating :)

[tangleknot]

I understand where you are coming from Erik. However, the sad thing is, the people that were yelling stuff weren't even fishing. Not one of them. Chromium was just floating past their property, cabins, etc., minding his own business having people yell this stuff to them from the banks. One guy even followed John down the river with his cup of coffee, b*itching away. I think John was pretty patient considering all of the bs he dealt with on the float.

Regardless, can't wait to float this Saturday! Sounds like it is going to be beautiful.

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Sounds like you guys should get a float boat regatta going on that river and let everyone you know with a drift boat or canoes, kayaks and show up and do some fishing. Is this during the weekend, or when all the part time complainers are back downstate during the week? I didn't read all the threads but what river is this? Glad i'm up here, don't have any of those problems ever. :bash: That just sucks, but when you have money and can buy up all that expensive river frontage people think they own the river and they are boss :mad:

[Steve]

Soumds like John needs to install some sort of water balloon launcher in hisi boat to keep the locals at bay.

[Shoeman]

Soumds like John needs to install some sort of water balloon launcher in hisi boat to keep the locals at bay.

"Oh Winston, just look what that heathen did to your silk blazer" "I know Didi, let's move to Mission Point"
:lol:

[gunrod]

"Oh Winston, just look what that heathen did to your silk blazer" "I know Didi, let's move to Mission Point"
:lol:I'm sorry, I thought he was on fire. I should have known it was just a pipe in his mouth by the smoking jacket and kerchief he was wearing.:bash:

And isn't it Thurston and Lovey.:lol:

[beer and nuts]

Wowowowowowow Steve, you better define "local"!!!! :)

I would lay a dollar to a donut that most of those guys that were rude were not locals but "implants". A 'local' is somebody that has lived for most of his life up here in god's country not somebody that claims to live up here and worked most of his life downstate. :p :p :) :)

Don't blame us locals, it was problably a 'downstater' 'weekend warrior' :p :lol:

[Erik]

One guy even followed John down the river with his cup of coffee, b*itching away.
Okay, it probably bares mentioning that I personally do not always find it possible to restrain my anger in such situations as I should. I just know that when I am able to restrian myself I feel better for it later on.
It sounds like these folks just wanted to ruin chromiums day, and maybe they accomplished that. I'll bet in the end though it took away from their own enjoyment as well. Thats just how these things work out.

[WEEZER]

I can see that there are a lot of sheep visiting this site. I'm willing to bet that half the people that responded to this thread have fished the Holy waters less than 2 times in their lives. Joining the cause without knowing the reason is pretty damn pathetic. I suggest that before forming a flotilla you actually visit the river in question and see for ourself that a driftboat is just too damn big to fish out of in that part of the system.
There are lots of other places that can support drifters on the Ausable system. A) Mio stretch(The boats you see at gates are there to fish Mio). B) Conners to Parmalee also would be suitable. There really isn't much use for a drifter in the upper branches. I don't really care for riverboats and canoes either but at least they don't block off the whole river.
Fishing in the holy waters isn't as easy as some may like to think. A fish that has been caught before isn't easily fooled again unless the presentation is flawless. It's not a trout pond, it's more times than not very frustrating to have 20 inch fish feeding on top only to the bug that you don't have in your box,(If you are lucky enough to figure out what they are eating!)
As for Rusty, He's a good guy. I doubt he wants to be an "icon" He loves trout, and loves everything about the ecosystem. He doesn't talk about catching "swine" and "I'm the best flyfisher out there"." I was the fly angler of the year in 1995"...........Rusty doesn't seem to care about these things so personal attacks on him are an outrage.
At any rate I'm off the subject now. So long. and word of advice......if a flotilla does occur. I wouldn't pick the next 4 weeks to do it! When the Big bugs come out.....everyone gets a little tense.

[quest32a]

A lot of sheep eh? I have never fished the "holy waters" in my life. But Chromium is my friend and i know he has fished those "holy waters" for many years. And if he felt comfortable floating those waters in a driftboat, I trust his judgement.

You know what, I have changed my mind. Flies only is a great thing, it keeps all the *******s in one strech of river. Where i don't have to deal with the bitching, and moaning. If they want that section of river so damn bad they can have it to themselves. I have no desire to ever step foot in that section if this attitude is a common occurence.

Until there is a law banning driftboats in that section then those "dicks" have no right to treat John and his friend as they did.

[Freestone]

I talked to a couple of people who fish the Au Sable almost every weekend and they both cringed at the thought of a drift boat in the holy waters. They said it's just not big enough for that.

That said, it doesn't justify the threatening comments. I'm sure it's a fraternity of ultra traditionalists who own frontage on the river and have found their technique of verbally harrassing drift boaters to be effective in discouraging their return.

I'm sure someone would get a reaction taking a drift boat down the Rogue. It's legal but common sense tells us it isn't a good idea.

[WEEZER]

So you are jumping to conclusions about a branch of river and the people that frequent that area based on your buddies good judgement. that sounds reasonable I guess :dizzy:

[Erik]

It's seems to me the only reason theres a problem with drift boats is the amount of people that fish there. If this wasn't so popular of a destination I'm sure not a soul would care whether a drift boat floated down it.
Weezer, haven't you ever gone exploring a new river, or stream and made a mistake that you wouldn't have normally made if you had only known that section ahead of time? I would never have guessed a drift boat would be a problem on any river or stream that has enough water to float it. I mean, if it fits go for it right? Thats what normally goes through my head anyway when I'm exploring. If I get myself into a situation were I have to carry my boat well I guess I'll know better than to do that again. Should someone tell me that taking my boat through a section is a bad idea, and give me good reasons for it, I'll say "thankyou. I'm sorry. I won't do it again. I didn't know". But no one has to follow me down the river and harrass me about it. I mean we are all just people living on this earth. None of us are perfect.
As for the sheep comment, I hope thats not what you think of me. Especially since I've always considered myself a "lone wolf" :)

[WEEZER]

It's not so much that a mistake was made...(I wasn't there and I probably wouldn't cared anyways unless it was done during spinnerfall.)....... But lets put it this way....If the guys doing the harassing were all bait fishers this thread wouldn't even be here! Flyfisherman seem to be the scapegoat here. keep in mind.....very few of the landowners in that area actually fish! I wouldn't call the holy waters my home stretch but I do spend a considerable amount of time there in the early season. and I only regularly encounter 2 guys that own houses and fish. And they are both seem to be extremely well educated and very good hearted, certainly not heathens.

Off the subject: I hear alot of complaining about how trout unlimited doesn't work on stretches of general regulation water... Well the Mershon chapter has been doing quite a bit to try and restore the Rifle river. I remember all to well wiring in trees and hauling rocks to slow down erosion and it looked very nice when it was done. Several work sites did. The last time I checked most of the work was trampled! severly! and needs to be re-done....that kind of disreguard doesn't happen nearly as often on the fly waters! That's why people like me will offer up a day-off to put in work on the fly waters.

[Freestone]

Look Weezer I'm not trying to step on any toes here just had some input. I've heard other stories about drift boats on the holy waters but I'll keep them to myself.

I also think Chromium was referring to himself as the heathen not the people he encountered.

I would be surprised if there were only two people on that stretch who owned homes and fished. But then if there were more I'm sure you would know them. Seems your the expert. I'm out.

[beer and nuts]

Wow weezer, get off your high horse!! Typical.....if ya know what I mean!?!?!?

[tangleknot]

Heathens was meant in reference to ourselves as lowly drifters, lol, not the property owners. ;)


But lets put it this way....If the guys doing the harassing were all bait fishers this thread wouldn't even be here! Flyfisherman seem to be the scapegoat here. .


I'm glad to see that you agree it is harassment.

[chromium]

A lot of conclusions are being drawn here. Let me put some into perspective.

First: I'm the heathen. That's what I was treated like. A man committing the ultimate sin.

Second: I've fished the holy waters for over ten years. I know how the river is when it running at it's mean flow. If I was to drift that section on a "normal" day with "normal" stream conditions, I know I would have to move a lot of waders out of their hole just to get by. I also know that I would never go down that stretch when the big bugs are out. On this occasion, the river was well above the mean. With the amount of flow and the guage height way up, I figured that it would discourage most of the wading fisherman and if there was a few wading, I could make it around or behind them much easier with the river high. I encountered between 8-10 people wading the entire day. Everytime we saw one, I had the option to go behind them (unless they were on the bank). They were all kind, and we discussed the day's sucesses / failures. It wasn't until I reached the end of the float within a 1/2 mile from Rusty's that I encountered the problems. ALL comments came from people on the bank that were'nt even fishing.

Third: as I said in an earlier post, a flotilla is a BAD idea. It sends the wrong message, and it's not good for the river.

Fourth: I've dealt with Rusty Gates for years and I have always known him to be top notch and free flowing with information on fishing. I just wonder why people sit in back of his establishment harassing fisherman that just dumped $50 in his place a few hours prior.

And last, I must say I'll fish that stretch again on foot, and in my drift boat. But when I do drift it again, the flow conditions will have to be right, just as they were the last time I did it.

[TroutBumsMan]

>>Here’s the sad part. The last half of that float, I took nothing but crap from the locals about having my drift boat on that section of the river.<<


Sorry to hear that you had such a public, vocal and rude reaction reaction....that sort of behavior is out of line in any situation.



>>Then, I see an Ausable Riverboat come by me. I got some comments from them too. But I couldn’t help but notice that it was dragging a rather large wad of chain down the river behind him. I bit my tongue<<

Good on you for taking the high road and biting your tongue. As for the large wad of chain, I've been running an AuSable boat for 25 years...canoes on the AuSable for over 40 and occasionally have also used a chain with a canoe. I always try to minimize my use of chains. They disturb [you could rightly say "cause damage to"] the bottom of the river, stir up nymphs & larva that should remain undisturbed, etc. Wading fishermen cause similar disturbance...it is a fact of fishing life. In addition to minimizing my own use of chains, I've asked the guides who run from our shop to do likewise. An experienced AuSable Riverboat guide should be able to run the boat without chains the vast majority of the time by using his punt pole to 'check' and slow the boat. Fast water, particularly with two fly-fishers in the boat [plus the guide] or changing flies/re-working tackle while on the run is another valid occasion to use the chains. If you see guides [who you think may be] running from this shop who are excessively dragging chains, I'd appreciate hearing about it. The boats used by guides have 'MC' numbers on them...a brief physical description would help as well. If the boat does not have 'MC' numbers, it is a private craft and you might take the initiative to introduce yourself, strike up a conversation and gently let them know about the 'right way' to run the boat [minimal use of chains]. I've done it frequently...many folks are just ignorant of the situation and will do the right thing when they are informed about it. Last but not least, running an AuSable boat can be a little tricky and slightly intimidating to 'newbies'. Running with chains helps to keep those small freighters relatively under control as they gain their sea legs. On the other hand, all newer AuSable boat operators should have a 'STOP NOW' weight ready to toss in and, so, should be able to reduce their use of chains as well.

>>So, if you plan on floating the Holy Waters, prepare for the pretentious, holier than thou, snooty, self-righteous tooth pick floatin’ MF’rs to be coming out of the woodwork. What a shame......Every boat comes with a bow mounted chainsaw to help you get by the AuSable boats. <<

You raise some valid points and started out on the high road...why drop down to the level of the folks who were publicly and rudely hooting on you ?


>> fishermen on the “Holy Water” are generally against drift boats. It makes them have to move when we come by.......<<

The following is likely obvious to most folks: Fifty years ago there was little or no problem, little or no conflict on the AuSable and other rivers here in the North. In more recent years, more fishermen, more canoers, more private land owners and private homes along the river, more guide boats, more privately owned fishing float boats has changed things. What works best is for all river users to show respect for the resource and for all of the other river users....to share and protect the resource in a proactive way. "Pitching a bitch", heaping verbal abuse [as happened to you], asking the government to intervene and pass a law to regulate behavior...all of these are not constructive answers to the situations confronting our resources.

As you may know, for 25 years we've run a business that has, throughout its long history, been a guide service, fly shop *and* canoe rental. Over the years we've taken a variety of steps to reduce user conflicts between flyfishers and canoers. We've limited the number of canoes on the water, narrowed the length of the stretches of water that they operate in, established time zones, strictly enforced alcohol limits, helped to establish and fund a designated Sheriff's Dept. River Patrol, directed some of our canoe rental $$$ to river restoration projects and much more. There are a lot more initiatives that we've undertaken in conjunction with the fly-fishing end of the biz, the most recent to bear fruit and perhaps most visible being the Grayling Stormwater Management Project --- a $1 million+ 3-year project that will remove 80%+ of Grayling's stormwater from the AuSable. http://www.huronpines.org/grayling_stormwater_project_index.htm

Tho' it may appear to be so, this is not intended to be a session of 'blowing my own horn'. Rather, it is to demonstrate that we make an honest attempt to follow one of our business-operation guiding principles: " That the highest form of free enterprise is to do 'the right thing' and, hopefullfy, make enough to pay the bills " The 'doing the right thing' includes doing the right thing for the resource....giving something back to it, trying to operate the biz in such a manner that, whatever negative impact we may generate is minimized. Why? Not because it is required, not because it is the "law:. Rather, our view is that if you run a business that is so closely associated with a leading natural resource you should show it a lot of respect and we try to do so. We are constantly re-evaluating the situation on the river, taking input from property owners and other river users and making additional changes to our operation.

Among other initiatives, we've educated our canoeing guests not to 'raft' [tie-together & float] canoes. The amount of canoe-rafting on the upper section of the AuSable Mainstream is down significantly over the years. Why have we asked our canoeing guests not to 'raft' canoes? Because 1] by tying two or more canoes together it creates a wider craft, crowding wading fly-fishers and other river users; 2] there has been a policy adopted that, when trees fall into the river, only a 'navigable path' will be cleared and the downed tree will moved/placed to enhance trout cover. The 'navigable path' has been defined to be 6'-8' wide; and, 3] the rafted canoes are less maneuverable.

In my view, what is good policy for one user group is also good policy for most or all of the other user groups. In our situation that means that, if 2 canoes rafted side-by-side are too wide & too big for upper sections of the AuSable & Manistee, then fishing float boats which take up the same amount of space or *more space in the river as two canoes rafted together, are also too wide, too big for the upper sections of the AuSable & Manistee. As a result, the larger fishing float boats that we rent [bi-yaks, rafts, larger pontoons] are not allowed on the smaller sections of the rivers. The AuSable Riverboat design was created as a result of the unique physical characteristics of the upper AuSable & Manistee Rivers --- they are narrow, winding, have deadfalls and the flow rates are *very stable....the AuSable & Manistee are in the top 2% of rivers *worldwide for stable flows. As you likely know, the AuSable Riverboats are generally 24-28" wide...long and narrow. Rafts, pontoons and McKenzie-style drifters take up significantly more water space...the boats alone take up space and, when you add in the oars, even more water.

So, our guides have been requested to run only their AuSable Riverboats on the upper river sections, we request that folks who rent our fishing boats that they do not use them on the upper sections, etc. For our operation we consider the 'upper sections' to include the AuSable Mainstream from town down to Townline Road [below Wakeley Bridge], all of the South Branch, all of the North Branch and the Manistee River from Deward to Yellow Trees.

We also *ask* that other folks who have 'larger' fishing float boats consider doing the same...following the same self-enforced guidelines. This is not the only ‘self-enforced’ guideline, or local-water tradition if you will, that is followed on the Holy Water. Another, for example, is that virtually no one ever runs a boat with a motor on the Holy Water even though there is no law against it. You may think that this is a ‘non-point,’ that no one could successfully run the Holy Water with a motor, but it *can be done by those very familiar with the water… It is not done because virtually all of those who make use of that section of the river recognize that it would be a imposition on the other river users.

You mentioned that you run the Holy Water with your drift boat “only when conditions are right” meaning only when the water is up, right? If you are going to run a McKenzie drifter on the Holy Water, that is a good step. Thanks self-enforcing that guideline.


Steve Southard, Ray’s Canoeing & The Fly Factory – Grayling

[chromium]

Thanks Steve for the opinions. You have some good ones and I agree. I can appreciate the effort that you and others have put forward on that river and those efforts show every time I fish that stretch.



You mentioned that you run the Holy Water with your drift boat “only when conditions are right” meaning only when the water is up, right? If you are going to run a McKenzie drifter on the Holy Water, that is a good step.

In regards to your question above, that's exactly what I mean. When the waters is high and I believe that the wading fisherman will be out in minimal numbers, only then will I float that stretch. I've been fishing that stretch for over 10 years, and I have only floated that stretch twice.

Thanks for your input.

John

[thousandcasts]

Wow...interesting thread. Chromium, I have to applaude you. Had it been me, I wouldn't have had the inner strength to bite my tongue for the entire trip. One or two idiots, maybe, but a whole slew of them as you described? No way...at some point, one of them would've had a drift boat oar sticking out of places that one wouldn't normally find that sort of thing! :)

Eh, but then again, I'm a 155lbs on a good day...probably would've just got my a** kicked once I started arguing back! LOL!!

[secondgear]

Hello to All, I was born in MI. And now reside in TX. No One should have to be treated like that. we have motto down here, Drive Friendly! the TX lotto is 145Million is that enough to buy the River? Be Closer to GOD and act like your in Church and you go far. Sg.