Missing in Action-All of the M.S..Com chest thumpers supporting the war in Iraq.

[Jimbos]

Soooooo, what's your opinions now? Yes , Saddam is gone, but a cruise missile could of done the job. The country is in chaos, soldiers are being killed in a never ending cycle of ambushes ala Vietnam. If my memory serves me, besides myself and Spanky who were trashed for questioning this fiasco, everyone else wanted to rush in headlong and thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread.........Awful quiet on this subject now.:confused: :confused: :( :eek:

[IT pimp 2002]

You can focus on the bad part of war and make a case for your point of view. The world is a safer place because of what we are doing, anyone that says different may need a reality check. The casulties could be blamed squarly on the previous admin. for 8 years or ignoring the problems. Just depends where you want to focus your opinions. While it's sad that soldiers are loosing there lives, I am proud that the USA is fighting the good fight, and good will always prevail over evil.
France can kiss my red white and blue ass.
Any more q's.

[Jimbos]

Good post IT, thank you for coming out of the woodwork. Ah yes, the infamous "previous 8 years", guess when the current situation has turned into the mother of all clusters, focus on the previous 8 years.:)

[boehr]

I still believe we did the right thing and still support what we have done and what we will do. Trying to compare this with Vietnam, I don't think so.:rolleyes:

[AceMcbanon]

The biggest waste of our time and money, Saddam was a nobody and we could have easily toppled him without spennding 100's of billions of dollars and without sending 100,000s of troops. We should have focused on terrorism not Dictators whose armed forces are some of the weakes tin the world due to part shortages and lack of any weapons with any power. Only 9 missles were fired by Iraq the whole war, wow was our intelligence wrong.

To believe you can rebuild a country in the middle east is the stupidest idea ever. Specifically in a country with so many enthic groups and religious divisions. All we have done is provide more targets for real terrorists, and probably created a lot more while we're at it.

Are troops are going to be there for years if Bush is ever gonna come remotley close to the promise for a stable Iraq. Lets keep our focus on home and terrorism instead of wasting so many resources on a stupid cause

[Jimbos]

Originally posted by boehr
I still believe we did the right thing and still support what we have done and what we will do. Trying to compare this with Vietnam, I don't think so.:rolleyes:
Your right Ray it is silly to compare it to Vietnam. This has to potential of turning into much worse. Vietnam there was at least the superpowers in the shadows to keep both sides in check. This here one side is trying to play by the rules of law, and the other side are a pack of unconstrained animals who find no one the be innocent bystanders. As I said a year a go we will never be able to control these animals. This is a never ending quagmire.
Give these pigs the so called control of their country, leave a base in the area, and get the hell out.

[Neal]

I still stand by our troops and the decision to be there.

Thump, Thump,

Neal

[Jimbos]

I still stand by our troops
It goes without saying for people on both sides of the discussion.:)

[grizzly]

This has really been a sore subject around my office and home. With the loss of more and more troops each day i get more preturbed with our governments actions. These people have proved again and again that they dont care about americans and what we are trying to do. Sometimes I wonder why are we there???? It would seem as if we need to get the attention of the assailants and insurgents. Why in the good lords name are we holding back and letting more troops get killed. Pull them back and level the town of fullujha. Then move on to the next town until the violence ends. It only took 2 bombs to end the problems in japan. And it was over. This seems as a pretty harsh thing but how else can we end this thing without more Troop casualties. I know we have the capabilities to do it. Is this a nato thing where we are worried about other countrys thoughts??? It sure is a sad ordeal to have to watch out people die needlessly.

Grizzly.

[hoffie1]

Imo we are doing the right thing.I sure as hell hope we stay there and finnish the job.As long as bush is the president I believe we will.
Keep bush president


hoffie

[wingshoot]

Too Early to compare this to Vietman, but everything points to us being there for many years.

Contrary to what this Administration would have you believe, Irag was no threat to the U.S. I'm not saying that Sadam was a great leader, but are we going to take on every tin cup Dictator in the World? We better get a bigger stick, the world is full of them. And lets not forget the U.S. supported and promoted the Sadam regime as an ally against Iran.

There is good argument that our involvement in Irag has increased our risk of terrorist activities here and abroad. You only have to see what's going on over there this week to realize that we're not wanted there by a sizeable percentage of the population.

Overseas contacts I have through work and friends that live abroad, all tell me the same thing. All think it was wrong to go in to Irag unilaterley. they think Bush is a War Monger.

This President decieved the American Public by insisting on WMD's and trying to link Irag to 9/11. He's taken a government surplus and created the biggest deficit in history. WE're spending over 60 Billion Dollars in Irag that could have been used to better fight real terrorist threats and other things like health care here in the U.S.

I think Ralph Nader is on to something when he says this President should be impeached.

From a Sportsman's perspective, unless we reform mining and grazing rights on public land. Start enforcing wetland protection and polluter laws. Make it a priority to protect the habitat needed by the game that we all pursue, we may as resign ourselves to doing our shooting at the skeet range, because that's all that will be left.

[Jimbos]

So what exactly are we trying to acomplish there? Handing over a peaceful country, with a functioning democratic government to seperate groups of religious fanatics who have been warring for 500 years. What we just did is create a new Lebanon on a grander scale with us in the middle instead of the Israeli's. Unless we pull out soon our troops will be moving targets for 20 years.

Fighting the war on terror in the shadows is a very noble and worthwhile cause, the war on terror did not go through Bagadad except for one bullet in Saddams head.

[TC-fisherman]

It doesn't matter anymore if it was right or wrong to go in. Unfortunately we are in.

No matter how wishful you are it's hard to think of a scenerio anymore where we "win". We are viewed increasingly as occupiers and the more we push the more they will push back. Short of killing everyone in Iraq how do we win?

Quote from the first bush president on why they didn't invade Iraq.

Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.

I don't think anyone has the answers.

[wingshoot]

TC - Nice reference to Bush SR.

[warthog]

(It only took 2 bombs to end the problems in japan. And it was over)

I think it took around 6 yrs after we occupied that country to rebuild it.

I think it took 4 or more years after we occupied germany

maybe I'am wrong but I still believe we are doing the right thing and will support it to the end.

[YPSIFLY]

Some people won't or just plain can't handle democracy. Keep them divided and fighting among themselves, but keep them contained to the urban areas. Our troops don't have to go into town, just maintain a perimeter.

Surround the oil fields and suck the sand dry, anything that comes near them gets crushed. Any country caught sending agents to Iraq gets bombed hard and heavy. Put Mecca, Medina, Riyadh, Tehran, Damascus, and Amman under nuclear crosshairs and don't make a secret of it.

This is just the first front in a long war.

[Neal]

You guys might want to change the channel. I look forward to the day our proud troops return home with the truth. It's unfortunate that all the good being done and the support of the majority of Iraqis is covered up by the medias exploitation of our tragedies, and showboating the negatives.

Neal

[warthog]

well said neal

[kbkrause]

Originally posted by warthog


I think it took around 6 yrs after we occupied that country to rebuild it.

I think it took 4 or more years after we occupied germany



We may have become better at fighting wars, but the rebuilding is the difficult part.

Thump Thump...

[Ranger Ray]

So what exactly are we trying to acomplish there? Handing over a peaceful country, with a functioning democratic government to seperate groups of religious fanatics who have been warring for 500 years
Stopping them from attacking us again. That is what they did on 9/11.
We had to start somewhere and Iraq was the unlucky place. The argument will come why Iraq? Why not Iran they are more of a problem or Syria. Doesn’t really matter were we brought the fight to the radicals but Iraq seems to be just as good a place as any. Anybody here think that if we didn’t put these radicals on the defense they weren’t going to repeat 9/11? Look at all the cells in all the different countries. These radicals have been working on a plan to disrupt the world for quite some time. I am amazed at how entrenched these people really are in various countries. This is not some fly by night radical organization. They have become this strong because everyone has been afraid of what is happening right now. Do you think these people just showed up in Madrid, France, Iran, Syria, Russia, Iraq, etc… because we attacked Iraq. You don’t have bomb experts show up all over the world by chance. They were sent out for one reason and that is bringing the fight to us. This is a HOLY WAR! Denny it all you want but it’s the fact Jack! It is a war against a radical Muslim sect not Muslims as a whole. They want to kill us. :eek:

Only time will tell if we did the right thing. Shame we can’t predict the future but seeing how we cant we are left to our inept human ways. Some will be wrong, some will be right. At least we are able to listen to one and each others ideas so maybe in our future our ineptness will be lessoned. ;)

[deepwoods]

I believe that it certainly wasn't the easy thing to do but it was the right thing and we need to finish the job. I think it's a shame the way the media covers it. I heard a guy on t.v. state that you don't televise the 100,000 nice looking homes in a neighborhood you focus on the one home that is on fire. That is news. I feel that holds true in Iraq.

[Moron]

Alot of good points raised by both sides.

I wasn't so much against us dethroning sadam as I am with the notion we'll be there until the region is stable. I don't see it ever being stable.

I believe we do have the support of the majority of iraqis. But hey it's their freedom that's on the line here. The fact that our iraqi supporters over there aren't as well trained or equipped to do the job of fighting for "their" freedom as our military is, shouldn't stop them from investing more of their own blood in support of these freedoms.

As far as it being another vietnam. Time will tell, the longer we're there the more apt it is for that to happen. As time seems to turns these things political.

Botton line is we are there and I fully support our troops. Just don't see a well defined goal to accomplish for exit. Or is this to become another permanent US base of operations?

[AceMcbanon]

Ranger Ray Saddam was an enemy of Bin Laden, there is even times where bin Laden called for his goverment to be toppled. Saddam ran a pretty unreligious goverment and could even be called a religious moderate. Saddam was a terrible man but definetly had nothing to do with 9-11. I'm sick of people using 9-11 as an exscuse for invading Iraq. Specially when most the hijackers actually came from one of our so called allies saudia arabia.

Now it will most likely become a radical islamic goverment under the Shias much like Iran and will now be more prone to terrorism

[TheFlyfisher]

Just because people are against the war doesn,t mean we don,t support our troops. Most of them never thought that they would see combat in the first place but joined because there where no jobs to be had and thought they could get an education which they are.
As far as the war, Bush got us into something that him and his administration don,t have the slightess idea how to get out of. This war is like Viet Nam for one reason, the people who started it didn,t know what we would face and how we would get out.
And it is not getting any better. I got to laugh when people say we are a safer nation. Can,t people see how many people hate us now?? Can we if we want go to other countries without warnings are lifes may be in harms way?? And how many terrorists our in our country just sitting back and waiting ? Bush wanted to create a democratic country in a country that has so many enthic groups, religious divisions, and shortly in the very near future we will see a civil war that we will be the blame for.
I support our troops because they didn,t know what they were getting into and I support them because many more will die before all this is over and you have no one to blame except Bush and his war loving administration and supporting Republicians.
And for the ones who will question, yes I served in Viet Nam and saw what a mess they created in that one and this is no different and I did vote for this joke of a president. Won,t make the mistake this time.

[Brian S]

Don't know if this has been posted before. The web site has some good info.

http://www.defendamerica.gov/specials/1yearMission.html

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Ranger Ray
Stopping them from attacking us again. That is what they did on 9/11.
We had to start somewhere and Iraq was the unlucky place. The argument will come why Iraq? Why not Iran they are more of a problem or Syria. Doesn’t really matter were we brought the fight to the radicals but Iraq seems to be just as good a place as any.

Wow. You can't be serious?? LOL

[Ranger Ray]

No excuses from me Ace. Understand what I am saying; 9/11 IS THE REASON WE INVADED IRAQ!

You think different?

[Ranger Ray]

Wow. You can't be serious?? LOL
100% serious. :p

[AceMcbanon]

I agree that 9-11 was used to gain support for the war on Iraq, But it had nothing to do with Iraq what so ever. Like I said we should be focusing on Terrorism not nation building

People want to talk about goverment spending, we're gonna end up spending more on this war and project then on any home programs thats for sure

[fishlkmich]

It only took 2 bombs to end the problems in japan. And it was over.

Since most of our nuclear warheads are at least 100 times more powerful now we could just pull out and drop, say, 20 on key targets. It would be over for everyone. Ya, there would be some nuclear fallout on neighboring countries, but WTH? Let's just wait until the wind is blowing toward Iran and then seed the clouds so it rains nuclear fallout on them. That'll teach 'em to think about enriched uranium projects! Syria is close and they are supposed to have WMDs, so let's save a few nukes for their *****ES, too! Just make sure that the wind is blowing away from Israel.

It's unfortunate that all the good being done and the support of the majority of Iraqis is covered up by the medias exploitation of our tragedies, and showboating the negatives.

CNN showed coverage of a Saudi news station last night. Guess what, the Iraq people weren't kissing US soldiers! They weren't even offering them fine trinkets! What they showed were bodies covered with blankets. Relatives crying over dead bodies. Doctors talking about the dead and wounded. That was U.S. media showing Saudi media. I believe that if thousands were demonstrating in the streets of Iraq, in SUPPORT of the U.S. we would show it in a heartbeat. There just isn't anything nice to show. They don't want us there and more and more of them are letting us know it. Would you prefer that we get some pretty fountains running over there, so the media could "showboat" a positive?:rolleyes:

GET OUT!

Mark

[Ranger Ray]

Can,t people see how many people hate us now?? Can we if we want go to other countries without warnings are lifes may be in harms way?? And how many terrorists our in our country just sitting back and waiting ?
Explain this to me. Why would there be terrorists in our country waiting if they didnt already hate us? Were they sent here only after Bush attacked Iraq? Is it because of Bush they hate us? Seems to me they have been blowing Americans up all over the world for dozens of years now.

[Dawg]

I realize I'm a small minority, but I still think there are biochemical weapons in Iraq. Considering how long it took us to find that rat and his blow-hole in the sand (with the bounty on his head), we may never find the weapons. I am glad that the infrastructure to use them is disabled.

I don't think this administration is free of valid criticism but I'm not rendering a verdict just yet. None among us have the benefit of knowing our foreign intelligence but we all have the ease of hindsight to suggest that the president 'didn't act soon enough on this' but 'he acted too soon on that'. We'd all be smarter with a crystal ball but I don't hold that as a reasonable standard of leadership.

[fishlkmich]

Military intelligence is an oxymoron.

[Burksee]

Originally posted by Neal
.....................It's unfortunate that all the good being done and the support of the majority of Iraqis is covered up by the medias exploitation of our tragedies, and showboating the negatives. Thanks Neal, well put. By the way when was the last time that the media reported on anything good? The news media thrives on bad news, reminds me of that song "Dirty Laundry"! :eek:

[JasonG]

We did not choose this fight it was brought to us. Since they started it and I not only mean Al Quida but the many groups which desire to kill every freedom loving American. But now that we are in the fight we must take the fight to them. Invading Iraq was an offensive measure. We can not sit back and just react we must go to the sources. Lets not forget that we now have a large standing military presence in the middle east that puts an enormous amount of pressure on the surronding countries. Hence Iran and Lebenon recent backing off.
While I mourn the loss of every American life since when have we lost our resolve. The freedom which we enjoy does not come cheaply it has been paid for with the blood of many our men and women. During WWII it was obviouse after Pearl Harbor that these people wish to destroy our way of life and that generation stood up to the challenge and at all cost protected us. Today we are faced with a different enemy but with the same desire. It is now appointed to this generation to do all to ensure the continuation of our way of life. If we were not to take the actions we are in today it would not be long before your family would live in fear of going to the mall or to ride a bus. I ask this question in the fight against terror if not Iraq then what should we be doing. Our Brave troops has established a battle field and the enemy has choosen to meet them on that field. Thank God that battle field is not on our shores.

[Neal]

There just isn't anything nice to show.

Apparently you know more than those, not in the media, who have been there. :rolleyes:

Neal

[Burksee]

JasonG - WOW! Thats one powerful post!
I've have never ever heard it put any better than that! You sir deserve, along with every american serving or has serviced over in Iraq a standing ovation! You sir have hit the nail on the head! Any one thinking about posting any dirogitory comments on this subject after reading your post should think twice!

[trouttime]

JasonG,
You did indeed hit the nail on the head. We did not start this, we have been taking blows for years and it is time to stand up and defend our countrymen and homeland. When a person or country must stand up and defend itself, it is never a happy or pretty thing, but that does not change the fact that it needs to be done. To do otherwise, is to encourage more of the same.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by AceMcbanon
Ranger Ray Saddam was an enemy of Bin Laden, there is even times where bin Laden called for his goverment to be toppled.


I didn't see bin laden sending airplanes into an Iraqi buildings. The relationship between bin ladden and saddam may not be wine and roses, but bin laden new he could topple saddam anytime. He also knew that saddam could supply his crew with WMD's or at least the intelligence to build them. The arrogance of saddam would lead him to believe there was no way al quaida could remove him from power so he would freely supply to anyone anything to help bring down the West.

Originally posted by AceMcbanon
Now it will most likely become a radical islamic goverment under the Shias much like Iran and will now be more prone to terrorism [/B]

Iraq will most certainly be ruled by Islamic extremeists if we leave. This brings up another reason for the war, one that never got any play. Saddam was in the twilight of his life, did anyone see some of those pictures prior to the invasion? He looked rough. If he would have died in office the stuff they're showing on the media now would look like a party. There would have been a huge struggle for power. The Iraqi people would have, most likely, sided with the Iranian types, for the simple fact that they were not the baathist party. That would put radical Islamists in charge of a major chunk of the Middle East's oil supply. The financial gains they would make would have gone a long way in funding traditional and terorists attacks on the West. Not to mention, they would have gained access to the WMD's our intelligence thought they had or have.

One life lost in war, wether US, allie or innocent bystander, is too many. However, the lives lost if we hadn't got involved would have/could have been much greater. Along with putting the entire planet's way of life in jeopardy.

[Jimbos]

I've missed it. What exactly was the threat to our homeland from Iraq? Seems to me there's more cells of scumbags in Europe being financed indirectly by the Saudi's that are more dangerous then anything that was coming out of Iraq.

Were now bogged down in a futile effort of nation building a nation that will never have the values and democracy that the USA holds close to it's heart. That statement right there seems a little silly when we did the invading, yet were the peaceful country.

There would have been a huge struggle for power.

LOL, there is a huge struggle for power, you haven't seen nuthun yet.

Saddam was in the twilight of his life, did anyone see some of those pictures prior to the invasion? He looked rough.
Now how long has Castro looked like death warmed over? 20-25 years? He's still kicking.

[TheFlyfisher]

Jimbo,s: Maby they realize Bushes war is going sour!! They may also see instead of things getting better they are getting worse and they see we aren,t wanted there. Maby it,s that they realize that Bush can,t dictate what kind of goverment they should have.
And just maby there upset that this war was the only thing Bush had going for him to win this time. And Bush still says that he will turn over that county to who I ask and that,s going to solve the problem. They know there is going to be hell over there real soon and a civil war that alot of our troops will die over for a person who has his own personal agenda.
And of course here in the U.S A he isn,t doing to well either. He says he is creating jobs and I,ll give him credit he has. He has taken all the good jobs and they went overseas and he has created new jobs for $10.000 less than what people made before. He has taken the elderly,s medical an distroyed that, took overtime from the salary workers, wants to distroy social security and I won,t even go into the debt he has created.
Jimbo,s they are depressed, plain and simple. Maby the only friends Bush has now are the rich and big and "small" business people he pampers. That is all he really cares about and there the ones who support him.

[GWPguy]

I think about all the mass graves over there. The cruel dictatorship of sadam and his 2 idiot sons. The torchure chambers they had setup. For freedom of the people from that is enough for me. I still believe he had some WMD. We haven't found them yet. Maybe they moved them. Maybe France took them back. I don't know.

But now the facts are the dictatorship is done. The people are free. We also blew up that country and now we have to help put it back together. I support our president and our troops in their day to day fight for freedom.

[Gillgitter]

Were now bogged down in a futile effort of nation building a nation that will never have the values and democracy that the USA holds close to it's heart

According to my old history books, thats what they said about Japan after WWII. They seemed to have grasped the concept pretty well.

[IT pimp 2002]

In the USA where people must have instant gratification, this war is not anything we should expect them to understand.
This war will take years/decades to win, deal with it.
If you think that you need proof of WMD, you are really missing the whole point. Did you really think Sadam would let us have or see his weapons program?
I guess when 20,000 AMERICANS die on our own soil, this might be enough for some to see danger. Bush was elected by the people, and a strong leader is required in todays times.

Want to stop the war? give up your SUV and car, boat , or any other fuel consumming item. I didnt think you were ready to do that, but now you may see why we are there.

Back when the Jap's bombed Pearl H. if citizens talked the way some do here, they would be deamed the enemy and jailed and beaten. Today when a country needs to rally around a common good cause, 1/2 the country doesnt want to get there hands dirty or they complain that it's taking too long. How do you think Sean Penn would have fared in the 40's and 50's with his non American views.

Boy can I ramble!!

[AceMcbanon]

Stop drawing comparisons to Japan, They were a world power who had thousands of WMD in plain site and in hiding.

Iraq wasen't a threat to anyone but itself

[Neal]

Originally posted by AceMcbanon
Stop drawing comparisons to Japan, They were a world power who had thousands of WMD in plain site and in hiding.

Iraq wasen't a threat to anyone but itself

And Kuwait.....and Saudi Arabia.....and Iran....and Turkey.....and Jordan.....and pakistan.......and Isreal.......and

[AceMcbanon]

Anyone of those single countries could have easily defended and then invaded Iraq. The Iraqi military was absolutley defenseless, they didn't have working tanks, no air force, and every section of thier armed forces was degraded to a point of stagnation. morale was nil. They were'nt a threat under the years of inspections and sanctions

[wingshoot]

Chris - sounds like Nation Building to me...

I'll stick by my earlier comment. Sadam was no threat to the US, just another crazed leader in a long line of crazed leaders.

WE can't police the World. That's what the U.N. is for....

[Jimbos]

And Kuwait.....and Saudi Arabia.....and Iran....and Turkey.....and Jordan.....and pakistan.......and Isreal.......and

Oh, so Billy Ray Joe Bob McDaniels from Pigdroppings, GA is required to die in some hell hole in Iraq so some Saudi Arabian prince gets to keep his South Korean servents? I missed that when that was mentioned as a reason for this nation building waste of time.
Turkey----LOL,,,now how exactly did our 4th I.D. get into Iraq?
Iran? were defending Iran?

[JasonG]

If not Iraq then where?

[Neal]

Originally posted by AceMcbanon
Anyone of those single countries could have easily defended and then invaded Iraq. The Iraqi military was absolutley defenseless, they didn't have working tanks, no air force, and every section of thier armed forces was degraded to a point of stagnation. morale was nil. They were'nt a threat under the years of inspections and sanctions

Really? Then why did Kuwait let them walk right in and claim there soil, why didn't Iran wipe them out when attacked by iraq? You underestimate the past power of the Iraqi army in that region

Turkey----LOL,,,now how exactly did our 4th I.D. get into Iraq?
Iran? were defending Iran?

Who's defending Iran? Ace claimed that Iraq posed a threat to no one......I was pointing out those that Iraq was a threat to.

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by JasonG
If not Iraq then where?

Everywhere we find Al Qaeda...

There is a difference between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Jimbos
Oh, so Billy Ray Joe Bob McDaniels from Pigdroppings, GA is required to die in some hell hole in Iraq so some Saudi Arabian prince gets to keep his South Korean servents? I missed that when that was mentioned as a reason for this nation building waste of time.
Turkey----LOL,,,now how exactly did our 4th I.D. get into Iraq?
Iran? were defending Iran?

I think this is where you miss our/my point. We are not defending, directly, Saudi Arabian Princes or Iran, we're protecting our way of life. If Saddam or Islamic Extremeist could gain a monopoly of oil in the region we can kiss fishing from gas driven boats good-bye. Gone would be the days of living in the country and driving to work in an air conditioned Escalade. The only thing available in the grocery store would be locally produced goods.

[AceMcbanon]

Kuwait was over 12 years ago... I'm talking about the Iraq of the 21st century.

If not Iraq we should ahve been focusing on Afghanistan and pakistan with more resources and money, as well as any where else that hosts sizable terrorist organizations and don't move to erase them.

[JasonG]

Everywhere we find Al Qaeda...

We went to Afganistan. They cannot operate the same now with our presence there. Looking at the world scene where was the most probably next friendly place for them. For most reports the mojority of Al Qaeda cells are in Europe. Do you suggest we invade Europe. Of course not. Yet the countries which they hide are the same countries that many suggest that we ought to trust our sercurity to. When it is all said an done we are are ultimatly responsible for our own security.

[JVS]

Originally posted by IT pimp 2002
Bush was elected by the people, and a strong leader is required in todays times.


If I'm not mistaken, Bush LOST the popular vote (the people) but won the seat in the White House on the electoral vote, no? Something to remember...

Jim

[Ranger Ray]

There is a difference between Iraq and Al Qaeda
And the difference is? Tell me what Saddam stood for and then tell me what Al Queda stands for.
Jimbo,s: Maby they realize Bushes war is going sour
Fly are your opinions on this war based on your hatred for Bush? Sure looks like it. :eek:

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by JasonG
We went to Afganistan. They cannot operate the same now with our presence there. Looking at the world scene where was the most probably next friendly place for them. For most reports the mojority of Al Qaeda cells are in Europe. Do you suggest we invade Europe. Of course not. Yet the countries which they hide are the same countries that many suggest that we ought to trust our sercurity to. When it is all said an done we are are ultimatly responsible for our own security.

Al Qaeda is here in the U.S. too. I'm not suggesting invasion for every country in which Al Qaeda is present....there's more than one way to skin a cat. This is a complex problem, with a complex solution. I just don't believe that wasting lives, time, and money invading Iraq is part of that solution.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
Everywhere we find Al Qaeda...

There is a difference between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Is there a difference between Al Qaida and Hamas or Hezzbolah?

How much money did siddam give to members of Palestinian homicide bomber's families?

What country was Abu Nidal in when he died?

What did members of Task Force Ironhorse 2nd Infantry's Arrowhead Brigade find in a weapons cache in Samarra back in December? Al Qaida literature and video tapes

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Chris_Davis
I think this is where you miss our/my point. We are not defending, directly, Saudi Arabian Princes or Iran, we're protecting our way of life. If Saddam or Islamic Extremeist could gain a monopoly of oil in the region we can kiss fishing from gas driven boats good-bye. Gone would be the days of living in the country and driving to work in an air conditioned Escalade. The only thing available in the grocery store would be locally produced goods.

I dream of the day when gas driven vehicles are a thing of the past. If the U.S. had a good energy policy, we'd already be making progress toward that. As long as we rely on oil, we are at the mercy of Islamic extremists and the Middle East.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by JVS
If I'm not mistaken, Bush LOST the popular vote (the people) but won the seat in the White House on the electoral vote, no? Something to remember...

Jim


Well, I for one, am darn glad we elect Presidents with the Electoral College and not the popular vote!

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
I dream of the day when gas driven vehicles are a thing of the past. If the U.S. had a good energy policy, we'd already be making progress toward that. As long as we rely on oil, we are at the mercy of Islamic extremists and the Middle East.

We finally agree on something.

[JasonG]

Exactly. And the way to skin the cat in Iraq was to invade. Remove a leader that had many reason to support terrorism against us. And establish a strong miliatry presence in the region. If you are so concerned about troops being there for a long time why have you not been protesting the troops in Korea. Fiffty years they have been there and I do not see people picketing to bring them home. If we are going to have troops stationed off our shores then what better place to show power than in the middle east. For years the best we could do was put a carrier in the gulf, now we have entire division armed and ready to enforce the might of the U.S.

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Chris_Davis
Is there a difference between Al Qaida and Hamas or Hezzbolah?

How much money did siddam give to members of Palestinian homicide bomber's families?

What country was Abu Nidal in when he died?

What did members of Task Force Ironhorse 2nd Infantry's Arrowhead Brigade find in a weapons cache in Samarra back in December? Al Qaida literature and video tapes

Yes there is a diff. between Al Qaeda and Hamas/Hezbollah.

Saddam did give $$ to members of Palestinian bombers families...are Hamas/Hezbollah a threat to the U.S. or to Israel?

Yep, they found Al Qaeda literature and tapes. 8 months after the fall of Iraq, when terrorists were coming across unguarded borders from other countries like Iran and Syria.

[TC-fisherman]

If not Iraq then where?

How about in Afghanistan and Pakistan. But i guess we are really not after the people who caused 9-11.

Iraq war undermining battle against Al Qaeda: Musharraf

The Iraq war was drawing resources from the battle against Al Qaeda leaders and their supporters hiding in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has said.
The Pakistan government was receiving "very minimal" assistance as it tried to pacify tribal areas along the Afghan border where leaders of the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were believed to be hiding, The News quoted Musharraf as saying here on Wednesday.
To a question if the US-led Iraq war had been a distraction from the battle against the Al Qaeda and Taliban remnants by diverting resources from Afghanistan and Pakistan, Musharraf replied: "Yes indeed".

[Bluegill Bob]

Fly are your opinions on this war based on your hatred for Bush? Sure looks like it.

My opinion on Bush's war is not based on my hatred for Bush. But part or my hatred for Bush is based on his war.

[Ranger Ray]

If I'm not mistaken, Bush LOST the popular vote (the people) but won the seat in the White House on the electoral vote, no? Something to remember
LMAO. What does that have to do with anything. Its how our electoral democracy works. Do you want to change it? I understand our democracy doesn't work as good as Iraqs and Irans because their leaders always seem to get 100% of the popular vote. Imagine that. :eek:

[JasonG]

Saddam did give $$ to members of Palestinian bombers families...are Hamas/Hezbollah a threat to the U.S. or to Israel?

THis was the same thing said when Hitler invaded Poland. Should we let Israel fall. If they will blow themselves up in Israel they will blow themselves up here.

This a pivitol moment in our History

We can either say "we can not stop these terrorist so we will have to just live with it and try to appease."

OR

We will stand now and try to preserve a better world for our children and draw the sand in the line here and now and say NO MORE will you be allowed to terrorize us.

[AceMcbanon]

Numerous Americans gave millions to the IRA from Irish pubs to organizations, that organization is no diffrent then hamas or hezbollah.

The palestenian conflict is a lot diffrent then the type of terrorism we encountered, it stems from a much more complicated matter that has yet to be solved.

the methods both the palestenians and Israelis use are both terrible and not ever goign to end the problem

[Ranger Ray]

the methods both the palestenians and Israelis use are both terrible and not ever goign to end the problem
How do you stop the killing when your neighbor states that the only end can be the elimination of your race.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
Yes there is a diff. between Al Qaeda and Hamas/Hezbollah.


How?


Originally posted by Buddy Lee

Saddam did give $$ to members of Palestinian bombers families...are Hamas/Hezbollah a threat to the U.S. or to Israel?


Both

Originally posted by Buddy Lee

Yep, they found Al Qaeda literature and tapes. 8 months after the fall of Iraq, when terrorists were coming across unguarded borders from other countries like Iran and Syria.

There were terrorists there before the invasion. Abu Nidal, leader of Fatah Revoloutionary Council, recieved support and safehaven from saddam. He carried out terrorist attacks in 20 countries, killing or injuring almost 900 persons. Targets include the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, moderate Palestinians, the PLO, and various Arab countries.

This is a key, the guy was against moderate Arab governments. Yet, he recieved financial support, intelligence and security from saddam. Bringing truth to the allies of opportunity argument that saddam could have helped bin laden. Sure they had differences of opinion on the Arab St but they had a common goal of bringing down Israel, US and the West.

[GVSUKUSH]

All I know is my wife is student teaching at an inner city school that is so poorly funded that the teachers need to provide the paper for their own copies for class. I think 80 billion dollars could have been spent better at home, not in a desert for a bunch of jackasses that don't want us there.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by GVSUKUSH
All I know is my wife is student teaching at an inner city school that is so poorly funded that the teachers need to provide the paper for their own copies for class. I think 80 billion dollars could have been spent better at home, not in a desert for a bunch of jackasses that don't want us there.

How long will we continue to throw money at a failed school system? I'm not blaming your wife, or any teacher, they work so hard for our future. But the system is broken, it's time to get the government out of the education system and let the educators get the job done.

What good is an education to a child when the child dies at a young age because some crazy islamists doesn't like the fact that we let women wear shorts and talk in public?

[Ranger Ray]

I think 80 billion dollars could have been spent better at home, not in a desert for a bunch of jackasses that don't want us there
Sure would be simple if that was the case but unfortunately they don’t want us here either. :eek:

[JVS]

Originally posted by Ranger Ray
LMAO. What does that have to do with anything. Its how our electoral democracy works. Do you want to change it? I understand our democracy doesn't work as good as Iraqs and Irans because their leaders always seem to get 100% of the popular vote. Imagine that. :eek:

Now I'm LMAO. I never knew Iraq nor Iran had a democracy, at least one to be compared to ours as you just did. Nor did I realize that their leaders got 100% of the popular vote (of course you've got direct, verified, first hand information to back up that statement, I assume?).

This is off the original post subject but methinks you may have your hackles up because 2000 was the first time a president won the electoral election but lost the popular vote. All that means is the majority of Americans who voted in the 2000 presidential election did not vote for Bush. The Electoral College is over 200 years old and was implemented at a time there were only 13 states and about 4 million US citizens.

If you're one of the few non-Republicans in Michigan (LOL) and you're on your way to the voting booth after work, yet you hear the "projection" that your candidate has handily lost the state (electorally)...shouldn't you still vote?? Shouldn't your vote still matter as much as the person who got out and voted at 7:30 AM?? What about the folks on the West Coast and in Hawaii who are 3 hours or more behind EST?? The media will not quit making these projections each and every election so IMO, yes, we need to overhaul the whole voting system.

If each and every citizens vote truly did matter and the electoral college was put aside for a moment:
1. Bush Jr. would not be president
2. We'd see a whole new approach to campaigning where the candidiates wouldn't focus their efforts mostly on the electoral rich states.
3. maybe we'd see a huge increase in the voter registration and turnout every 4 years.

Jim

[TC-fisherman]

If we had invaded iraq before 9-11 would that have prevented the attacks on 9-11?

NO.

How may terrorists did it take to pull off 9-11?

19.

How many from Iraq?

None.

How in the he** has invading Iraq made it harder for terrorists to get together 19 people?

It hasn't!!!!!!!!

Anyone notice that some of the people fighting us in Iraq now were the sames ones that were oppressed by Hussein, the sames ones that welcomed the invasion, the same ones that treated the americans as liberators.

[Ranger Ray]

of course you've got direct, verified, first hand information to back up that statement, I assume
Iraqi officials say President Saddam Hussein has won 100% backing in a referendum on whether he should rule for another seven years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm

LMAO again. Theres your documented proof. Now show me documented proof of what you say is fact and not opinion. :eek: ;)

[Swamp Ghost]

THUMP..........THUMP............THUMP

The military's job is to go where they are told to go and do what they are told to do. They knew the risks involved well before they signed on the dotted line.

War is hell and more soilders are going to die, nobody takes it lightly.

But their sacrifice elsewhere keeps the peace HERE. Look what a few planes full of muslim extemist zealots did to us. Let a couple loose with a dirty bomb and watch this country implode.

Iraq is just one step in assuring that it won't happen again.


This is just the first front in a long war.

More than any of us know or can even comprehend.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by JVS

2. We'd see a whole new approach to campaigning where the candidiates wouldn't focus their efforts mostly on the electoral rich states.

Jim

No, they'd focus their campaign on New York City, LA, Dallas, Houston and the 10 biggest cities in the country. How much return for their taxes would people in Montana and Wyoming see?

The electoral college is the best soloution for a country arranged like ours. Unless of course you're a JFK or HRC type, then I'm sure socialism is the answer.

[Swamp Ghost]

"Iraq always was essential to the anti-terrorism battle precisely because victory there was regarded as necessary to transform societies from where terrorists, spawned by suffocating regimes, had emerged. One can disagree with the practicability of such a strategy, but it is difficult to fault its logic."

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12922

[Ranger Ray]

Swamp Ghost;
Good post. To bad most wont read it because it is contrary and even damning to what they want to believe. ;)

[Randy Kidd]

Comparing Vietnam to Iraq is wrong on so many levels, We were in Vietnam by the request of the South Vietnamese Govt, We were there to defend that Govt from attack by the Communist North Vietnam, Pretty much the same reason we fought in Korea. And for those of you who either don't remember, or won't remember, or wern't around at the time. The American people for the most part were in favor of our action in Vietnam, Until 1968 during tet. Prior to that the only opposition to the war were the hippies and peaceniks, Minority subcultures. After Tet was when the the mainstream American opinion turned. And rightly so. Bodys started coming home in bags on a much larger scale, and there were no clear decisive victories because of micromanaging down to pre combat inspections by the whitehouse. We were not ALLOWED to win that one..On the other hand we are fighting in Iraq because that regeim posed "A Clear and Present Danger" to borrow a phrase, To OUR HOMELAND, Iraq was a govornment dedicated to becoming the decisive, controlling power in the middeleast, and they sanctioned,trained,supported and encouraged attacks by whatever means against Western govts to divert attention from what they were doing, THIS GOVT USED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ON IT"S OWN CITIZENS..Do you really think that they would not use them on anyone else? Now that Saddam is gone and once the threat to our troops have been reduced we will turn our attention to any other govornment who is still stupid enough to have state sponsored terroisim. Afghanastan and Pakistan welcome and even aid the United States with killing terrorists in their countries. Anybody remember the Taliban, We STARTED WITH THEM. Nobody whined about that. Why? because it was quick, clean and our bodycounts were nill. We just moved on to something Bigger. This one will take some time and will cost some lives. It's not quick, it's not clean and good men will die. But if we are to put an end to State sponsored terroisim it is something that MUST be done.

and oh yeahTHUMP THUMP

[AceMcbanon]

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articl...le.asp?ID=12922

Wow what a wonderful Source, lets look at their headlines

Retiring Whitey

Kerry's New Hate-America Man

John Kerry's Trail of Treachery

Questions about 9/11; The Passion in the Jew-hating Arab Middle East.

The Gray Lady Whitewashes Black Muslims


Oh and on why were were in Vietnam is because an election was supposed to held to unify the North and the South, the south leader being widely unpopular would have lost the election by a lot. Then decided to hold onto power and that is when the war began with us joining their side in our struggle against communism even when voted for. I believe it was Eisenhower who said "Ho Chi Minh would have won 80% of the vote"

[TC-fisherman]

"Iraq always was essential to the anti-terrorism battle precisely because victory there was regarded as necessary to transform societies from where terrorists, spawned by suffocating regimes, had emerged. One can disagree with the practicability of such a strategy, but it is difficult to fault its logic."
Imagine Bush giving this speech last year

"Even though there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and its army is basically a shell after years of UN sanctions I propose we invade Iraq and establish a democracy there.

Sure it might take 10 years or so, we'll spend 100's of billions doing it, lose a lot of American lives, turn the countries that supported us in afghanistan against us, and spawn 1000's of more terrorists.

But if were really lucky we have about a 50% chance of pulling it off. I say "Bring em on""


Just imagine the support he would have had:rolleyes:

[Dawg]

QUOTE:
"Anyone notice that some of the people fighting us in Iraq now were the sames ones that were oppressed by Hussein, the sames ones that welcomed the invasion, the same ones that treated the americans as liberators." (?)

Have you noticed it as a personal observation? Or is this a nameless faceless body behind a burned out hut? I've yet to see it on reality TV, perhaps you have. It's like the OJ Simpson trial or Scott Peterson, etc. There's thousands of journalists on retainer to report something different than the day before, and "all's quiet" doesn't sell papers or change political administrations.

This latest skurmish was an opposition force estimated at about 100 individuals - in a city of tens or hundreds of thousands. After a lifetime of oppression a minority is behaving like their parents are out of town and emulating the only state head they've ever known. They've seen the succesful aspirations of a beligerent jack***. In their world it relativity compares to the riots after the Rodney King affair.

I'd say it's still just a matter of differing perspective. I think the American people are safer than we were before invading Iraq. I also don't believe that it is coincidental that Al Quaeda has not executed a domestic attack since we took the offensive.

[Spanky]

Wow good post, I do laugh about Irag being the cause of 9/11. There is a complete brainwashing there. We are there because of oil, because saddam tried to kill lil georgies poppa, and because Dubaya thought it would be a cakewalk. After all we had decimated their military in the first attempt, had the no fly zones, had the sanctions. It was a good photo opp for G.W. Its too bad alot of sons and daughters had to die before some of the important folks in washington figured out it was a big deception. Yep, I remember when it was about to start, alot of you folks were not on the site then, but myself along with a few others, including Jimbos were brave enough to anounce our disbelief, and fear of the aftereffects of trying this experiment.

\Weapons of mass deception..still not found, no connection to 9/11 (just an easier target). All we are doing is angering the rest of the region against us. Is that a good way to fight terrorism, no! Lets make these folks behave and believe or way of life is better...WHY! WHO are we to say we are the perfect exsample. These peoples religious beliefs drive them. We are not gonna change their views. never.

Just a big joke, sad part is alot of people have fallen for the joke. We will see come november, and when a new president comes to power, he will probably fail to get us outta there too. We are stuck for yrs to come. Thanks Georgie!:(

[OTIS]

Thump Thump Thump

Jimbos,
I am a betting that in 50 years the face of the region will be changed for the better based on this war. I understand you love CNN and all the BS you get from the news media, I may go as far as saying your emotions from the Unfortunate loss of lives is the deciding factor in why you hate the war. You are not seeing instant gratifacation. Put it this way, it will take time, if you do not benefit I am sure your children and their's will.

Also if the Media coverage was this intense for WWII, people at here at home would have felt a lot different.

My grandfather told me stories from that war that made my head spin. "sending thousands of troops across a bridge to literally get mowed down until one or two would get across and take out a couple of the Germans"

G.W is my president and I support him through the good and the Bad.

[Ranger Ray]

Hey maybe if we get back to our own business we will only get attacked once and awhile. Yea, yea that’s it. If we don’t anger those radicals and go after them they will leave us alone. I know I know that’s what we were doing when they bombed the world trade center, bombed the Cole and flew into the trade center. But if we don’t anger them maybe they will leave us alone. I know I know they go to schools that teach them to hate and want to kill us but if we don’t pay attention they might forget about us. It has to be our piggish self indulging democratic society that causes them to hate us. So in theory we are the bad people. We need to let them know we do not like Bush! Then, then they will leave us alone. We need to only act when the UN gives us permission. I know I know they were taking money on the side from Saddam but when it comes to our security we must not let ones bad habits blur their good intent. So you think that just because their friend the Germans won on an anti American platform that they really don’t have our best interest at heart. Well then maybe we should conform to socialism like most of Europe so we could blend in. Maybe we can pull back all our troops and forget the rest of the world. Yea that’s it! We can pull all our troops out of the rest of the world and the radicals would be so busy overrunning the French, Germans etc... They will leave us alone for awhile. That’s it! Isolation, socialism and pacifism now were talking! :p

[Neal]

Yep, I remember when it was about to start, alot of you folks were not on the site then, but myself along with a few others, including Jimbos were brave enough to anounce our disbelief, and fear of the aftereffects of trying this experiment.

Before patting yourselves on the back, "O masters of the obvious";) Who didn't think this was going to be a long difficult endeavor, that would certainly cost American lives. As a matter of fact it was the Bush administration that stated the after math, or rebuilding of Iraq coulds very well be more costly than the initial war.

None of this is a big surprise to me, or to any other realistic person. I still believe that it is the right thing to do.

Neal

P.S. While out troops are over there, please refrain from describing yourself as "brave" for posting on a public forum:rolleyes:

[Jumbo]

To win their harts and minds, it hard to do when it all empty, no harts, no minds, any American death is too much to pay, but someone had to do it, may Gods face shine brightly upon each and everyone who signed on the line for a real good time over there, they're sure not getting payed enough for doing the dirty work or paying the highest price, let the Generals run the war, and keep the politic's out, just my $0.02 worth of time , thanks for the time.~~~><>....Jumbo..

[Spanky]

The brave part was, as to sticking to our beliefs regaurdless of the bashing we were taking. Sorry if I didn't get permission from you before I used the phrase. Any other little rule s I need to know about,!

As far as all the conflicts that Ranger Ray spoke about. Which ones of those are responsible from Iraqi terrorists. Are you still confusing them with Bin Laddins bunch.

After just watching the national news I am not suprised at the findings today by the 9/11 investigating comittee. Sad, and shameful, they had the info and pretty much blew it off.

Lets go fly a fighter plane onto a carrier for the press, tell all the troops that we have won a great victory, and that the war is over. If its over, why are our kids still being killed. It won't ever be over. They have a hatred 100 times stronger than before we arrived. Lets bomb it, rebuild it, make it better for all, and hell, we'll even pick up the tab...without even raising taxes.
Why didn't I think of that!

Where is the magic wand! Is it OK if I say magic wand?, master of the obvious wants to know. Who has the magic wand.

[TrailFndr]

If the intrest and intent of this badly managed and poorly thought out war was in fact to protect the US...then a much simpler, and CHEAPER method is available.

CLOSE THE BORDER TO ILLEGALS...kick those already here OUT, and stop allowing them to return. Kick out any "Student" with an expired visa, and do NOT allow anyone to come here without a full background check into thier past.

Man...so simple..so Easy...yet it would cost this president his plan to allow the vote by the illegals in order to get re-elected. So it will never happen.

Our borders are WIDE OPEN...the 19 fools willing to kill themselves for thier cause had it EASY ..WE made it that way..WE can STOP it from ever happening again. But we WON'T.

We went after Saddam, and while he was a threat to IRAQ...he was NEVER a threat to US...

[Kevin]

JimbosYMF,
I have foresworn getting embroiled in these pol posts. I think I have been doing pretty well in refraining from jumping in with my opinion, and certainly in refraining from adding any heat, as opposed to light, to a discussion.
You know my opinion: I have stated it in the past, and I got at least as much fire as you and spanky, so I wont toss it in here again.
But I will offer that a free and safe world involves taking action against those who provide cannons, and point cannons, and suggest where to point cannons, and not merely those who fire them.

Pray for peace, prepare for a-holes

[Ricky Missum]

Heard on public tv tonight that the Iraqis are using the resourses that were to be used by the Iraqis to rebuild the country and make it a "safer" country in the future, which we provided, against our very own troops! Probably nothing but half truths and one sided media reporting, but it really sounds like the country is a real hot bed right now! Pray for the troops that are over there, and thank God if your family has been spared the lost of a love one due to the invasion of this middle east country!
Also heard that gunfire is heard 24/7, and it looks like the fighting is headed right to Bagdad, can't understand why so many cities over there have been overran and under controll of anybody but US forces. Come on 6-30-04, and let's hand over the power of this place to a goverment that can handle this crazy situation! Hope they can find that powering body by then, but stickin to this plan makes a lot of sense!

[Moron]

It seems like the comments from both sides are getting more and more extreme as the evening progresses. One thing I think we all have in common here is a concern for our country and fellow Americans.

Hope everyone has a great Good Friday and Easter.:)

[Spanky]

You are right Moron, I have stated my feelings/beliefs, and will be letting this post ride. Happy easter to all our members, and GO WINGS!!!

[kingfisher 11]

Maybe Iraq was not threat to us, maybe they had no involvment in 9/11.

Have you forgot he played games with the UN and the US for over what, ten years? He was shooting at our jets in the no fly zone on a regular basis. This alone is enough to go to war over. He was clearly violating many of the resolutions that he agreed upon after losing the first Iraq war. I guess none of the left side want to bring this up because it would justify this war.
After 9/11 maybe it was not a good time to mess around with Bush. We were not in a good mood in the first place. Sadam was not smart enough to figure this out. I think he figured the last time he kicked the inspectors out we were to occupied in Afghanistan.

All the talk about new hate groups that are showing up. Maybe they have always been there, now just coming out of the wood work.

I read where someone mentioned losing jobs and the jobs under $10,000 just being created. Get off your butts! There are jobs out there if you have any worth wild skills. My company and one of my competitors have two open positions each. Heck of lot higher paying then the $10,000 or less jobs I keep hearing about. We can't find qualified people. Just left a machine shop today looking for two or more workers with good pay.

If you think all this war is doing is draining money and hurting us by losing jobs. You have some blinders on or have no idea what is really happening out there. It is creating jobs, not as many as what we need, but it is. Most of the shops I see who are busy, are doing military work. New products, high temp alloy machining, its there and growing. There are new technologies out there that know one would have ever thought possible. Military spending develops many of the new technologies used in civilian life.

War is ugly, we will never get rid of all those who hate us. If you think sitting home and closing the borders will protect us, it won't. They will come to us. I would rather take the war to them and be on the offensive then sit and wait for another 9/11. At least if it happens again we will at least know we are trying.

Or you could have it the other way. You can close all the borders and pretend we are safe. Heck, I can even give you a big warm fuzzy teddy bear so you feel safe, even tell you that you are(Democratic way) But, are you really safe? Our countries survival will only be protected by blood shed from those we care for. Fact is we are hated by way to many. This did not just happen in the last 4-5 years. There will always be war, or at least some minimum defensive military posturing.

[BaitRunner]

Ho Chi Minh said after the Viet Nam war, words to the effect,
" The Americans lost due to their internal emotional division and the breakdown of their resolve to win".


Uhh! This would have been rather difficult. Ho Chi Minh died in 1969.

An urban legend indeed!!!

[The Mutt]

I'll hold my tongue on what I think right now. What I will do is say a prayer for our troops that they are safe and for our President and his staff that they continue to make the right decisions in guiding our country through these troubled times.

[TheFlyfisher]

Ranger Ray: Yes, part of my hatred for Bush is for the war he created and had no idea how to get out of it. And your being to kind using the word hate by the way. All Bush did was use 911 as an excuse to go over there. They were aware of the threats way before 911 at the PBB meeting they had and did nothing about it.
The F.B.I and C.I A knew and didn,t make anyone aware of it and why was that?? Bush knew of threats in 2001 and did not take any actions of the threats. It all falls on Bush. And who we should of went after and never got is still on the loose isn,t he.
You tell me what Bush has done that is good for our country ?
Has he made us more friends in other countries?? What about all the support we got for this war in other countries?? And how about the people in Iraq, they really like us now don,t they? I see them every day throwing parties for our troops and all the other countries that love us more now then before. Is it good that he is trying to distroy medicare for the elderly that no one can afford the drugs they need, or the jobs everyone lost and had to take jobs that pay $10.000 less than what they made before, or have no jobs now, or took away overtime for the salary workers and made them all pay more for there medicals, or the social security he is trying to distroy.
Some say this war isn,t like Viet Nam but look at the stupid people that created that one and these people running this one and there both alike. They didn,t know what they were getting into or how to get out.
As for me I voted for him but I can vote the other way also because I,m not devoted to one side or the other as many are and can,t vote anyother way. I,ll vote for Kerry and I,ll gladly pay higher taxes to see our country back working, and to get back what the other side took away.

[The Mutt]

TheFlyfisher,

They were aware of the threats way before 911 at the PBB meeting they had and did nothing about it.

The F.B.I and C.I A knew and didn,t make anyone aware of it and why was that?? Bush knew of threats in 2001 and did not take any actions of the threats.

Post your PROOF!!!

You Sir are so ate up with hate you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the @$$ with both hands. I pity you.

[Kevin]

I am sure everyone remembers, but I will suggest that we all keep this from getting personal, okay folks?
Thanks

[MiketheElder]

Saddam's army(?) showed little resistance when we invaded Iraq. Everone in the world saw that. Do you think maybe there were bad people in Iraq and elsewhere that hate the thought of free people being able to rule themselves? Is it possible that those same people saw that Saddam was ripe for the taking but the U.S. beat them to it? Can you imagine the goofs, including the Saudis, that hate us, having control of the Middle East's oil and oil money that they would continue to get from their customers (France, Germany, and all the other pacifist countries). How powerful would the world's terrorists become if they had dumped Saddam before we did?
This is not a religious war. This is a domination war. The Saudi's don't want their land to become democratic. Actually the best(?) form of government is a Republic. Democracy is just mob rule. The Saudi princes and other royalty are probably backing the bad guys in Iraq just to stick it in our President's butt. That's a whole other thread.

The real fight, as I see it, throughout the world, is which form of economics will dominate. Capitalism with all it's risk and reward, or Communism/Socialism/Totalitarianism/ Fascism which fit right in with the bad guys agenda.

This is the beginning of World War III.


Ever notice how Democrats/Libs never say that we live in a Republic. Had to get my little dig in.

Big Mike

[YPSIFLY]

I'll second what Amos said....we're all pissed and looking for answers, but fighting amongst ourselves is what the terrorists want us to do.

Let's at least agree that they all need to burn in Hell. :)

[MiketheElder]

To all the Bush haters out there, I'm reminded of a quote by S.I. Hayakawa. A Democrat, I think.

"If you see in any given situation only what everyone else can see, you are so much a representative of your culture that you are a victim of it."

or.....can't see the forest for the trees.
cut off your nose to spite your face.
lemmings to the sea.
Maybe the one we all heard as kids...."So if your friends jump off a bridge you will too."

One of these days I'm going to make up some t-shirts that read "Liberals Ain't"

Ranger. I like your style.

Big Mike

[MiketheElder]

Oops. He was a Republican.

I didn't think a Democrat could say something so profound.


ZZZZZZiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big Mike
An ex-Dem independent. I even voted for Coleman Young back in 1972. Imagine that. Me voting for a one-time card carrying Commie.

[Moron]

Ever notice how Democrats/Libs never say that we live in a Republic. Had to get my little dig in.

Mike, there are also far to few republicans who refer to our form of government as a republic to suit me.;) We are a constitutional republic that incorporates democratic process, quite a different animal than democracy.

To my knowledge the word democracy is no where to be found in our constitution. I consider democracy a mild infection that ultimately leads to socialism.:(

[Kevin]

Liberty is by far, more important than democracy

[YPSIFLY]

Right on, Amos. There's no government like NO government.

Freedom .vs The System, not that I'm advocating anarchy, but you have to wonder how much is lost in the translation.

[Ranger Ray]

Which ones of those are responsible from Iraqi terrorists. Are you still confusing them with Bin Laddins bunch.
No confusion here Spanky. I make no separation between Saddam, Bin Laden, Kadaffi, Musharriff etc... They are the terrorists. A terrorist is as a terrorist does. If they fit the mold they are guilty.

Your posts reek of Bush hatred. Look in the mirror Spanky maybe that hatred has confused your objective thinking. ;)

[Jimbos]

Originally posted by TrailFndr
If the intrest and intent of this badly managed and poorly thought out war was in fact to protect the US...then a much simpler, and CHEAPER method is available.

CLOSE THE BORDER TO ILLEGALS...kick those already here OUT, and stop allowing them to return. Kick out any "Student" with an expired visa, and do NOT allow anyone to come here without a full background check into thier past.

Man...so simple..so Easy...yet it would cost this president his plan to allow the vote by the illegals in order to get re-elected. So it will never happen.

Our borders are WIDE OPEN...the 19 fools willing to kill themselves for thier cause had it EASY ..WE made it that way..WE can STOP it from ever happening again. But we WON'T.

We went after Saddam, and while he was a threat to IRAQ...he was NEVER a threat to US...

Beautiful, post,,,,I love it....spend 100 billion dollars flushing it down that toilet in the middle east while Jose with a backpack can earn 1000 dollars sneaking anyone they want across a border so full of holes that we have no idea who is even in this country. This is a SINCE 911....Paaaalease.


I make no separation between Saddam, Bin Laden, Kadaffi, Musharriff etc...

I don't think you can call me a Bush hater, and I certainly hate to finally disagree on something, but please look at your above statement. You see no difference between the above mentioned p.o.s., correct? Well two of those fools are now our friends. Now here we are spending billions and are now stuck in a quagmire because of Saddam, yet Kadaffi has supported terrorism for 25 years, has had weapons of WMD, has killed Americans, and he's now a buddy. Musharriff? A possessor of nucleur weapons, an exporter of these weapons, and their technoligy, oops, no Musharriff is a good guy, it was his top doggie scientist who sold all of the secrets without the Presidents knowledge. What exactly did Saddam sell? To whom? What's the difference between Saddam and Kaddaffi and Musharriff? politics that's what.


I applaud everyone for standing by their beliefs regarding this topic. If you think that having to attack a mosque in some dirt poor Iraqi town is fighting terrorism, well more power to ya. I think were in an unintentional quagmire, to others this was on the road in the fight against terrorism. Just remember this statement by Rumsfeld...."we are not in the nation building business, we are in the business of fighting terrorism".....now what are we doing again?

[Ranger Ray]

don't think you can call me a Bush hater, and I certainly hate to finally disagree on something, but please look at your above statement. You see no difference between the above mentioned p.o.s., correct? Well two of those fools are now our friends.
Jimbos you sly dog you! I was thinking to myself that I should clarify the point of Kadaffi and Musharrif helping to route out terrorism but thought to myself nobody is probably reading my threads good enough for me to need to clarify. There you go proving me wrong again. :eek:

I don’t think that you could call them friends. Let’s say they have a purpose and that purpose serves our needs as we fight the war on terror. My grouping of them all as terrorist was in response to someone thinking I was confused between Bin Laden and Saddams group. I was showing them that my thinking on which group are terrorists and which group isn't does not lend itself to confusion because I view them all as terrorists.

Kadaffi and Musharrif have said they were willing to help us fight Al Qaeda. And so far have kept to their word. Kadaffi has gone so far as to show us were his WMD were and hand them over. Saddam did everything he cauld to go against us and is now our prisoner. Do you think that Saddam would be our prisoner today if he would have acted like the other 2? Do you think we would be in Iraq in the capacity we are today if this idiot would have had any sense? We would be foolish not to look with contempt at the other two as we proceed. But we would also be foolish not to let them prove themselves in our war on terror. Hate to say it but Pakistan at this point has showed itself more worthy than France, Spain, and Germany. This doesn't mean I have any less contempt for Musharrif. I am not a war monger as you may think by my posts. LOL. I think we can all agree that if one comes forward with what appears good intent than you give them a chance. Even if it is because you are holding a nuclear bomb over their head. Hope this clarifies my point. ;)

[Jimbos]

Na Ray, i'm not going to debate on your last points as were pretty close. The only thing I may differ on is I think Pakistan has gone into this "war on terrorism" with a gun to their head held by us then appearances may suggest. As far as Saddam cooperating with us here's the bug-a-boo, and cause for most of the debating in this country. Did we give Saddam the chance to cooperate after 911? and even if he did not cooperate he was contained and no threat to anyone either in the region or to this country.

Just a sidenote that doesn't really pertain to this discussion, and someone will say "prove it", but,,,,remember the plane that got blown up over Scotland by Kaddaffi? My neighbor's brother was returning from Germany for Christmas and was on that plane. I just can't remember if he had to transfer in London or if that was a direct flight from Germany.

[JDubya]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JVS


This is off the original post subject but methinks you may have your hackles up because 2000 was the first time a president won the electoral election but lost the popular vote.

Might want to check your facts again.

In 1824, John Quincy Adams, son of President John Adams, became president despite receiving fewer popular and electoral votes than Andrew Jackson, who finished first but failed to win a majority of either vote. Adams, after striking a deal with the third-place candidate, was elected president by Congress as required by the Constitution when no candidate wins an electoral vote majority. In 1828, Jackson defeated Adams handily.

In 1876, Rutherford B. Hayes lost the popular vote to Samuel Tilden by 247,000 votes, but won the Electoral College by one vote, 185 to 184. Hayes, who served one term, was derided by critics as "His Fraudulency" and "Rutherfraud."

In 1888, President Grover Cleveland won the popular vote by 90,000 votes but lost the Electoral College vote 233-168 to Benjamin Harrison. Four years later, Cleveland ousted Harrison from office, winning both the popular and electoral votes by a wide margin.

[Moron]

Liberty is by far, more important than democracy

So true Amos.:)
In a true democracy liberty is defined by the whims of a simple majority, more descriptive of Europe.
Our's is defined by the constitution with restrictions placed on the governments power. Though political correctness seems to be changing this concept.:)

[The Mutt]

Many of you ask, "Where's the weapons of mass destruction"?

I'll tell you what. Call me every day for 12 years and tell me I can't have my guns. Then one day park down the road and tell me if I don't prove I don't have them you're coming to get them. After 6 months of waiting down the road show up one day to take them from me and I gauruntee you that you won't find so much as a slingshot. But guess what, I'll still have em.:rolleyes:

[trouttime]

Mutt,
Could not have said it any better! That is the Reality of the situation, regardless of what people would like to believe!!

[JVS]

Originally posted by Ranger Ray

LMAO again. Theres your documented proof. Now show me documented proof of what you say is fact and not opinion. :eek: ;)

Let's see, 11 million plus Iraqis voted for...the only person on the ballot!! Maybe that's why 100% of the votes were for Saddam.

[Eastern Yooper]

I was in support of the war against Iraq, and am still glad we went in.

Without going into a huge debate, Sadaam was a menace, a tyrant, and a genocidal maniac. The world is a better place without him & his two sons in charge of Iraq.

Having said that, I'd say we've accomplished most of what we set-out to do.... and it's now time for us to get the hell outa Dodge. I am tired of seeing an endless plethora of body bags filled with American soldiers.

We gave peace a chance, and they gave us 9/11. Within 6 months, we crushed Afghanistan (something Russia failed to do in 20+ years). We toppled Hussein, and flipped-off most of the rest of the world when they refused to help. Some criticize his foreign policy; in my book its one of his greater strengths. Bush summed it up best when he said, "America does not need a permission slip to defend itself."

[MSUICEMAN]

I think the Kurds might be better off without him, as well as maybe Israel. Now from this mess that we are in over there we have taken muslims that were on the fence as far as americans and pushed em over the to anti-American side. We took out one local tyrant and created a much more menacing problem for ourselves.

We went from having a bad situation, to a worse situation. Also to those saying that the shiites and sunnis aren't both fighting against us now, I guess el-Sadr wasn't in the groups to benefit from Hussein's capture.... remember his father was assassinated by Hussein's regime. Also, location dictates that since there is fighting in many of the northern and southern cities, that both factions are fighting us.

This is turning into a huge mess, GWB thought it would be an easy cakewalk and now hes finding that the entire region is against us (gee, what a shock). Let me see.... lately we've been getting like 9 or ten soldiers killed a day.... so thats like 3285 troops a year, multiply that by a low ball estimate of 6 years presence in the region..... so only like 19000 people killed. I guess thats not a bad price to pay for what I don't know..... (yes, that was huge sarcasm).

steve

[Neal]

Let me see.... lately we've been getting like 9 or ten soldiers killed a day.... so thats like 3285 troops a year, multiply that by a low ball estimate of 6 years presence in the region..... so only like 19000 people killed.


Nice estimating, using a couple weeks for your numbers. how about this......600 in one year x 6 years = 3,600. See it's easy to make estimates, using unknown information.

Neal

[Jimbos]

This is turning into a huge mess, GWB thought it would be an easy cakewalk
The war on terrorism as Bush explained would be a long hard slog and I believed him and have no instant expectation of success. Iraq was not on the agenda in that war on terrorism as far as i'm concerned. Terrorism is a in the shadows battle or fight, and is not a nation building excercise.

Without going into a huge debate, Sadaam was a menace, a tyrant, and a genocidal maniac. The world is a better place without him & his two sons in charge of Iraq.
1000%percent in agreement, the method on how it was done is where the disagreement lies.

America does not need a permission slip to defend itself
Statements like this is why I was in inner turmoil in suporting or arguing against Bush because I have and currently still do respect his determination in this war.

[IT pimp 2002]

In the simplest of terms it is the good fight against evil. We all agree on that, however the longer you let an evil unchecked, the longer it takes to clean up the mess and set the tone for future evil including terrorist. Thank Bill Clinton for turning a blind eye on our future, kind of like what he did to Hillary and his daughter. I liken it to children, they will push as far as you will let them. You let anything go unchecked and this is what you can expect. Now everyone is wondering what we are doing over there. Reminds me of an Ostrich with his/her head in the sand. I dont really think Bush cares if he is liked or not buy the public, he knows he is looking after our future, that to me is integrety, and it's rare in todays world.

[MSUICEMAN]

I don't question a war on terror, I question how we're going about it.

steve

[Bluegill Bob]

Originally posted by The Mutt
Many of you ask, "Where's the weapons of mass destruction"?

I'll tell you what. Call me every day for 12 years and tell me I can't have my guns. Then one day park down the road and tell me if I don't prove I don't have them you're coming to get them. After 6 months of waiting down the road show up one day to take them from me and I gauruntee you that you won't find so much as a slingshot. But guess what, I'll still have em.:rolleyes:

You belive that he had WMD and stood by while his son's were killed and he was captured and did not use them? I don't think anyone would do that.

I do think we will find the WMD just before the election. Kind of like put-n-take hunting.

[AFTERSHOCK]

It is a good fight, you see if one ethnic group is gonna blow up a hotel or police station and kill innocent people of another ethnic background, then they are indeed terrorists.
saddam was a terrorist.
weopons of mass destruction are most likely burried out in the desert somewhere and just might be found right around election time.
The real deal is that the most of the countries on this planet are really no better than iraq. if they were a great country they would stand right along side our brave soldiers to show these ignorant people that their their thinking is unexceptable.

The people of iraq should of had the guts and the will to take out saddam along time ago! and I'm not talking about the militia and insurgence that are fighting right now, I'm talking about the people of that country that believe in a good higher power that would not support the killing of innocent people.

in the usa if a leader and his possi were running things the way saddam ran things, americans would elliminate that leader and his possi no matter how big and bad the possi's weopons were.

the fight in iraq right now is against terrorism and it is trying to better the country and america really is doing it alone for the most part. if im elected commander in cheif I would say to the people of iraq: you have 36 hours to vacate this city on foot out to the desert before, WE DESTROY IT AND ALL THE BOMB MAKING CRAP AND ROCKET GRENADES AND ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU COWARDS GOT STASHED AWAY!!
AN IF YOU STAY HIDDEN WITHIN THE CITY , YOU WILL LOSE YOUR COWARLDY LIFE AS WE BURN AND BULLDOZE IT DOWN!!!!!
SAME GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU WORTHLESS COUNTRIES WITHIN THE REGION AND AROUND THE WORLD!!!
WE WILL TAKE YOUR OIL AND SELL IT AT HOME IN AMERICA AND USE THE PROFITS TO BUY MUNITIONS TO CONTINUE OUR FIGHT AGAINST ANY RELIGOUS FANATICS THAT SHOUT OUT, " ALA IS THE ONLY GOD" FOR YOUR THINKING IS UNEXCEPTABLE!!!
YOU HAVE 36 HOURS TO LEAVE THIS CITY!! THE CLOCK STARTS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
:mad:

[suppa roosta]

Amazing how fast some forget...


NEVER, EVER FORGET! (http://attacked911.tripod.com/)

[Jimbos]

Hey Super Rooster,,,,,don't for a minute EVER confuse disagreeing with this Iraq thing with forgetting about 911.....EVER!!!!!......thank you.....have a nice Easter.

[suppa roosta]

Jimbo,

I'm not the one confused here...

You're welcome.

You and yours as well!

[jdt]

i think that whenever we find ourselves going to war,the first ones on the front lines should be the president&vice-presidents
sons and daughters,and next the crongresses from both sides of the isle.lets get personal!! lets see how many .

[Sailor]

I guess I'm out of place on this site! I'm a liberal hawk! I disagree with almost all of you! The Bushies and ditto heads among you can't see what a bunch of out of touch, still fighting thre cold war, chicken hawks GW has surronded himself with. They're not terrorist fighters, they ignored the terrorists until they got caught with their pants down on 9-11. They then mounted their chargers and slew the windmills. The bring the boys home peace lovers are also in left field-this IS a war! Clinton, Bush, Saddam, or even
al-Qaida didn't start it (though all of them certainly made the problem more acute). This war has been going on for hundreds of years. The Muslims, Jews, and Christians All feel they have a monoply on the truth and that God is firmly on their side and that the others are fanatics and must be dealt with as such. Somehow
the world survived Muslim invasions of Europe, Catholic Crusades
to the "Holy Land", the Holocaust, the Exodus and the Jews return to Palastine. All of these cults have tormented each other
to the point of no return. This is not WWll or Nam but far more dangerous! The Jews have a mandate from God to be in Isreal, The Muslims have a mandate from God to kill the "Infidel"
(thats us lads), while Rome burns the "Christians" are screwing around with abortion. worrying about whose gay, and which priest is the worst molester and how much a fishing license costs.
Meanwile the many Muslem factions have been united by our invasion of Iraq (who said they're logical) and their lives revolve around Jihad. Meanwhile our government is going through the forest picking up twigs. What would a Liberal Hawk do NOW?
It is a self evident truth that approx half the worlds population
wants to Kill Americans and most of the other half have chosen to stand aside and watch-I feel it is insane not to kill them first.
As they DO have a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" it's called oil, we should OPENLY take their oil away from them and kill anybody that gets in the way. I think we should destroy their world or they will destroy ours. As long as we think this is all about who
controls the White House and not who controls the oil patch and
who controls mens minds we will very likely not survive. Is that liberal enough?

[Ranger Ray]

I'm a liberal hawk
Reading your letter it appears that you have undergone such a slow transformation into conservatism that you didn't even know it.
Congratulations! :D ;)

[suppa roosta]

Ranger Ray,

I'm thinkin, Dick the Bruiser coming out of retirement.

We'll meet at the "Air Conditioned Cobo Arena" where I'll kick all their Axis!!

Does sound like a plan though. ;) :D

[MiketheElder]

we should OPENLY take their oil away from them and kill anybody that gets in the way. I think we should destroy their world or they will destroy ours

Refer to my previous post. LIBERALS AIN'T! And a conservative would NEVER think like that. Also, unfortunately, a true Capitalist would think 'How much money would I have to pay to make these people stop their threats?'

I don't think this whole thing is about religion anymore. I believe it's about humans wanting as much power as they can get. I think, my own humble opinion, that this quest for power by men is the antithesis of a belief in the power of God. Humanism run amuck under the guise of a belief in Allah.


Big Mike

[YPSIFLY]

Originally posted by Sailor
we should OPENLY take their oil away from them and kill anybody that gets in the way.

I agree.

We should go to Saudi Arabia, take out the royal family and let the Wahabi and the remaining House of Saud fight it out. We should smash that countries infrastructure in the process. Again, surround and occupy the fields while the urban areas are contained.

Then we go to Syria and Iran.

We've thrown enough sticks at the hornets nest already, they're worked up enough that we might as well go all the way. A major war between us and the middle east at large is imminent.

[Ranger Ray]

We'll meet at the "Air Conditioned Cobo Arena" where I'll kick all their Axis!!
LMAO! :D :D :D

[fishin' fin]

I have been monitoring this site for quite some time, very good fisherman and great Americans all!! I am an ex- army "Ranger" not "Raynger." I am near 40 and have done enought to know war has its place and this(Iraq) is not it. It seems the river of life has spawed a great number of silver-spooned warrior wannabees A.K.A George W. Unfortunately, he and his followers are ingnorant of where a dollar comes from and where it should be spent. I have many opinions, obviously. Jimbos, Spanky, JVS, Ace M., and BuddyLee are intelligent and I give them all credit for standing up to a bunch of non veteran silver spoon soap box neo cons! Keep up the good fight and unlike what the fools lament, " do not pray for war!"

P.S. Jimbos, I don't know how you get any time to think about politics because you're always reeling in fish.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by fishin' fin
I have many opinions, obviously. Jimbos, Spanky, JVS, Ace M., and BuddyLee are intelligent and I give them all credit for standing up to a bunch of non veteran silver spoon soap box neo cons!

Ah.
So those who agree with you on this particular position are intelligent, while all who disagree are "a bunch of non veteran silver spoon soap box neo cons!"

Welcome to the site, thanks for monitoring it, and thanks for your service as an Army Ranger.

[trouttime]

Amos, you sir, should be a diplomat!!:D :D

[Jimbos]

I thought i've been doing a pretty good job about staying out of the political crap lately.....Someone moved this thread I started into the political forum. IMO it has nothing to do with a specfic party and has everything to do with where the country and world in general is headed.

For the chest thumpers, after reading the articles regarding Iraq over the weekend, i'm more convinced then ever that this Iraq thing is just plain wrong. Please try to link me an article from any recent source telling me how Iraq is on the right track, and how this has cut down on the risk of terrorism to America and Americans.

BAGHDAD, April 10 -- A battalion of the new Iraqi army refused to go to Fallujah earlier this week to support U.S. Marines battling for control of the city, senior U.S. Army officers here said, disclosing an incident that is casting new doubt on U.S. plans to transfer security matters to Iraqi forces.
Who was the genius that thought any Iraqi troops would ever fight against another Iraqi? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Moron]

We helped prop up sadam when it suited our best interest, so we should have some obligation to help iraqis be rid of him, which we've done.

With all the foriegn intervention in the middle east for what seems like forever, in regards to oil and the cold war, it's not surprising they don't trust foriegners.

To put it in perspective, how would we feel if a superior force(if there were one) manipulated our government for our natural resources?

The hate of us infidels is based more on foriegn intervention than a resentment of our freedoms and beliefs. The radical fundamentalist use this hate to advance their causes, but I don't think the roots of this hate stem from their religion or our freedoms.

Regardless of what someones cause or reasoning is, there is no justification for terrorism. Terrorist should be treated like the crazed animals they are and put down.

I would hope our foriegn policy in the future would prevent us from aiding factions that will come back to haunt us later on. Most all who we consider enemies in the middle east were in the past supported by us. That doesn't say much for our foriegn policies of the last few decades.

My fear is that if we stay there long enough to impose our values on them, the situation will get political and cost needless losses to our military personel. Wars should be fought and commanded by the military with the only goal to win.

I don't see backing(that would be with them taking a front line position) freedom seeking iraqis to be a problem, but unless they win their freedom with their own blood and conviction they'll never be able to keep it.
Just my nickels worth.

[Huntnut]

U.N. resolution 1441....all Iraq had to do was abide by it.

But no...we get attacked on 9/11 and Saddam still shot missiles at our planes while we enforced 1441.

After 10 years of Iraq games, and after losing over 3000 American lives in a terrorist act, President Bush asked Saddam for one simple thing: COME CLEAN. Let us, and the UN, into your country, to verify you aren't trying to destroy us.
Obviously Saddams' cooperation was found to be lacking.
When it came down to brass tacks, the U.N. wasn't interested in enforcing its own resolutions.
As my father taught me, a man has to be prepared to back up what he says. IMO, the U.N. left us high and dry.

The U.S. made its intentions CRYSTAL clear to the world...if you harbor, aid, or support terrorism, YOU ARE the enemy. And we are gonna take you out. Saddam did all 3...and he was (as warned for 12 years) taken out.

Jimbo's said it best:
"here one side is trying to play by the rules of law, and the other side are a pack of unconstrained animals who find no one to be innocent bystanders. As I said a year a go we will never be able to control these animals"

And what do you do with an uncontrollable animal that attacks the innocent??

You exterminate it out behind the shed.

And you allow the other animals in the yard to see it so they may understand what happens to animals that attack the innocent.

Libya saw it.....let us in, and voluntarily surrendered their nuclear programs.
This Iraq war has forseeably prevented a future terrorist nuke attack on our soil by the Libyan government.

I dont know what to think...., but you have to think something, so I choose to believe G.W. is good hearted...doing what he can to keep America stable and safe. And at the same time, he has to gain and hold votes to stay the President!

We should be in Iraq. For more reasons IMO than this web site can handle.
My gratitude, and humble thanks go out to the troops on the ground. Be proud... You are elite, and your efforts are noble.

One last thing....what is it about people saying this war was "just" retaliation for saddams assassination attempt on George Sr.?????
An assassination attempt was made on a United States President. THAT ALONE was reason enough to eliminate the entire regime!!
It PI$$ES ME OFF that the attempt was made REGARDLESS of the Presidents political party.
Oh how sweet it must be for G.W....to capture and cage the man alive that tried to kill his father. Even when the world told him he shouldn't...LOL. Kudo's to G.W.
I hope old man George senior got to bloody saddams nose.

I say we stop our war against Muslims when they quit chanting "Death to America" on tv every night.

THUMP THUMP

Hunt

[Ranger Ray]

For the chest thumpers, after reading the articles regarding Iraq over the weekend, i'm more convinced then ever that this Iraq thing is just plain wrong. Please try to link me an article from any recent source telling me how Iraq is on the right track, and how this has cut down on the risk of terrorism to America and Americans.

I don't think you are going to find such concrete evidence. I think only time will tell if what we are doing is the right thing. We know the terrorist had drawings of nuclear plants and other various important locations for future targets. I would venture to say that about the most concrete evidence we have is that the risk of terrorism at this point has been cut down is we haven’t had any more attacks on American soil.

How come all of a sudden today this supposed big mass uprising has come to a stop? Seems like it would be pretty hard to stop such an immense uprising as the press has been reporting. Maybe we were getting a little bit of over dramatics from the press. I watched a CBS news clip Sunday and could not believe how anti US it was. We are going to have good days and bad days. This past weekend was a bad one. This uprising was of no surprise to me nor will the next one be. It is to be expected. The key to our progress is to watch with each new uprising if they grow weaker or stronger. Remember the first 3 months in Afghanistan. By all accounts from our news media one would have thought the Taliban had us pinned down and it was only a matter of time before they committed their jihad upon us.

One thing that every major news media forgot to report on was how the Shiite leaders in Kut asked for our help to kick out the thugs. Although they themselves did not bear arms against the thugs (I really doubt the people of Kut are armed well enough to go against these thugs) we should at least see the positive aspect of them asking. Maybe this could be seen as some concrete evidence that not all the Shiites are against us.

With all the negative news one gets bombarded with constantly it is easy to get depressed and despair about how the war is going. Don't get me wrong, I am always worried that what we are doing isn’t right. But then I think on what happened in Rwanda, Serbia, and even Iraq (before this last invasion). We walked out and let the ethnic cleansing of millions of people happen. Seems to me these people could have used some chest thumpers on their side. :(

[Jimbos]

Ray, your right time will tell. My guess is we will get out with grand proclimations of how we changed the war on terror, how we planted the seed democracy(hahahahahahahaha) in the middle east, how we created so much good will(let me puke) amongst the Iraqi's and Arab people. Then by July of next year Iraq will look like Beirut and Lebanon of the 1980's. Terrorism will continue around the world, maybe we will or will not have had a terror attack in this country. If we haven't, people will see this as Bush being vindicated for doing the correct thing in invading Iraq. If we do happen to have an attack in this country, then the Democrats will savagily attack Bush for everything he's done up to now to fight the terrorists, of which everything has not been wrong. Iraq was an expensive distraction and waste of time in trying to secure this country. Yet in the last 3 years how many illegals have snuck into this country through porous borders, while were flailing away in Bagadad? There will be a terrorist attack somewhere in the world that will send our homeland security department into a frenzy trying to plug the latest real or imaginated hole in our security, and will have them holding their breath that nothing happens here. Because believe me, I am currently seeing the latest frenzy at work in trying to play catch up to a threat and it's left me shaking my head.
We have spent billions in Iraq, and if you could see some of the latest steps in trying to catch the next terrorist in this country you would laugh and then shake your head and hold your breath and pray.

[TrailFndr]

One thing that every major news media forgot to report on was how the Shiite leaders in Kut asked for our help to kick out the thugs. Although they themselves did not bear arms against the thugs (I really doubt the people of Kut are armed well enough to go against these thugs) we should at least see the positive aspect of them asking. Maybe this could be seen as some concrete evidence that not all the Shiites are against us.



Or it could be that they ARE against us and know we will assist them in THIER fight so they can say they never lifted arms aga