Bush's Treasury Secretary says outsourcing "good for the economy"

[Buddy Lee]

Treasury Secretary Snow says outsourcing makes the economy stronger (http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm19107_20040330.htm)

I'd like to see him explain that theory, in person, to the folks who work for Johnson Controls...they are moving almost 900 Michigan jobs to Mexico.

885 Michigan workers to lose their jobs at Johnson Controls (http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/business/index.ssf?/base/business-2/108060864750170.xml)

:rolleyes: :mad:

[Eastern Yooper]

Oh, but it really is good!

Now that the companies are spending less on manufacturing costs, they're reducing the price that consumers pay.

Right?

Here's proof: Just look at how much automobile prices have dropped now that the Big 2 are saving so much on labor......

(note the sarcasm in my post)

[WILDCATWICK]

Outsourcing for the most part is just wacked.

Curious though. What countries don't? I would like to look into how they are doing.

[Chris_Davis]

I know, we could force them to keep the jobs here in Michigan. That way, when they get tired of loosing money, they could layoff all 9,000 of thier Michigan employees.

All affected employees will be considered for other job opportunities within Johnson Controls. If they are not rehired, the company said it will provide them with support and job-placement services.

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Chris_Davis
I know, we could force them to keep the jobs here in Michigan. That way, when they get tired of loosing money, they could layoff all 9,000 of thier Michigan employees.

Tell us, why is it that Johnson Controls and companies like them are losing money? Is it because they have to compete with other companies who are already taking advantage of cheap foreign labor?

[AceMcbanon]

A lot of the companies that out source already make billion upon billions in proftis on a quaterly basis. It's greed they want more at our exspense. How about working on becoming efficient instead of outsourcing?

[barry county jim]

The Electrolux plant in Greenvillen came out and said that they were making money here but could make more in Mexico. Unless things change this november, if your mot a millionare your screwed. And for those that will say that NAFTA came from the democrats remeber that that had support flom both sides of the isles.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
Tell us, why is it that Johnson Controls and companies like them are losing money? Is it because they have to compete with other companies who are already taking advantage of cheap foreign labor?

They're losing money by not taking advantage of cheaper labor. Even if a company makes a profit, by not taking advantage of opportunities, like cheap foriegn labor, they're still losing money. Some will call this greed, to others it's smart buisness.

A lot of people forget that these companies have to move their product to make a profit. These companies are not going to leave their major consumers unemployed for long. That's why so many offer replacement jobs or job training. Ideally, these companies look to take advantage of better training oppourtunities available in the States to gain a wider skilled labor force. That way they keep the consumer base they have, while building new consumer bases elsewhere.

Everyone always focuses on job losses to factory moves and outsourcing and never mentions the overseas companies that outsource their jobs here. Last year the US exported (insourced) $131.001 Billion worth of legal work, computer programming, telecommunications, banking, engineering, management consulting and other private services. This is a $8.42 billion jump from the previous year. The only way the US can maintain our advantage in this area is too move our "unskilled" positions to developing countries and train our workers to be competitive in new, stonger areas.

But hey, we can still sing the "chicken little sky is falling" song. It's the same song they sang when the supercomputer was going to take our jobs, when the robots would replace our manufacturing positions and when new farm equipment started replacing the farmer.

[Neal]

A lot of the companies that out source already make billion upon billions in proftis on a quaterly basis.

That money belongs to the shareholders of that company. If you ever get a 401(k), mutual fund, or hold stock you will understand.....when the company makes a profit so do we.

Global trading is here to stay fellas.......It has been creeping in as long as I can remember. We can either participate and compete or we can choose isolutation. With isolution the world will just work around us, and it will incourage companies to move the whole shop out of the country.

BTW- John Kerry must also believe that free trade and outsourcing is good for the economy, as he supported both NAFTA & free trade with China. He also co-sponsored the CAFE legislation in which the UAW referred to as a"excessive, discriminatory" job killer.

Neal

[JackpineSavage]

My view is that the entire govt isnt entirely for the people anylonger but is increasingly moving more toward the interests of big business and people w/ six figure incomes. :mad:

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by barry county jim
The Electrolux plant in Greenvillen came out and said that they were making money here but could make more in Mexico. Unless things change this november, if your mot a millionare your screwed. And for those that will say that NAFTA came from the democrats remeber that that had support flom both sides of the isles.

Using the arguments here, Electrolux should have never been here in the first place. They're not an American company, they outsourced their jobs to the US. When they did, they had a competitive advantage to be here. The advantage has moved to Mexico, it only makes sense to move the factory there.

[WILDCATWICK]

Just out of curiosity is it even feesable to say that we could insource and not outsource? Could we take the hit for labor in the manufacturing community? Probably not once you do it there may be no turning back. Stock holders probably wouldn't here of it.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by Neal
That money belongs to the shareholders of that company. If you ever get a 401(k), mutual fund, or hold stock you will understand.....when the company makes a profit so do we.


One of the indicators of our recovery can be found here. Check your 401(k) small cap funds. Many are up 50-70% over the last year. There are a large amount of small companies booming right now. Economic recovery starts with small companies. For Michigan to start recovery we need to make our State a lot more apealing to small buisness.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by WILDCATWICK
Just out of curiosity is it even feesable to say that we could insource and not outsource? Could we take the hit for labor in the manufacturing community? Probably not once you do it there may be no turning back. Stock holders probably wouldn't here of it.

If you didn't outsource you wouldn't have enough labor to accomplish all that needs to be done. You'd also have a difficult time opening foriegn markets to US made products and services. If they don't have a job how can we sell them anything?

[WILDCATWICK]

Check your 401(k) small cap funds. Many are up 50-70% over the last year. There are a large amount of small companies booming right now.

Yeah nice increase when it was a negative number year prior. 50-70% percent increase is nice but a little deceiving when put in those terms.

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by WILDCATWICK
Yeah nice increase when it was a negative number year prior.

That would indicate a recovery to me.

[JasonG]

A lot of the companies that out source already make billion upon billions in proftis on a quaterly basis. It's greed they want more at our exspense. How about working on becoming efficient instead of outsourcing?

Since when can a company not try to make as much money as possible within the law. This sounds more like
"they have enough money how much do they need, they should give us some." Our country is an enconomy based on capitalism not socialism.

[barry county jim]

All I have to say even though it might wonder from the thread is republicans can say all they want about how bad things were when the dems were in the white house, but alot of rep minded people started companies under that administation. I went from $8 to $20 in that time working close to home but since Bush came in, I have had to drive up to 80 miles from fome to find work and laid off the rest.
Say what you want about Clintons lies and cigars, the never got 600 soldiers killed fighting a war to make Daddy proud.
Kerry may be rich now, but he risked his life in Vietnam. I think that gave him the right to protest the war, he fought for his freedom of speech. All while "W" got a get out of war pass from his daddies connections.

[Neal]

Jim, Two questions:

#1 What specific the Clinton Administration policies or legislation, was it that gave us the economic boom of the 90's?

#2 What specific the Bush Administration policies or legislation, led to the recent recession?


Btw~ The current unemployment rate is the same or better than is was in 1994,1995,1996.

Neal

[Buddy Lee]

The nation has lost 2.35 million jobs since 2001. Michigan's unemployment rate is 3rd highest in the nation, trailing only Alaska and Oregon.

Unemployment report (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/)

[Neal]

The nation has lost 2.35 million jobs since 2001. Michigan's unemployment rate is 3rd highest in the nation, trailing only Alaska and Oregon.

So the majority of the country (70%), according to your link, is above average......Sounds good to me.

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Neal
So the majority of the country (70%), according to your link, is above average......Sounds good to me.

Since it's an average, I'd say the number above the average is closer to 50%. The list is deceiving because some of the states with higher unemployment rates include New York, California, Texas, Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois....some high population states.

I'm happy for North Dakota and Delaware. I'm glad they have low unemployment...but I'm from Michigan, and I'm embarrassed that we are 3rd highest. I'm going to cast my vote this fall based on what I think is best for Michigan, not Delaware.

I don't know how I'm going to vote yet....more research needed.

[Fencereaux]

Chris_Davis, you do your homework!:D

Free markets, free trade = maximum prosperity for the most folks.

Enough of this business of talking the economy down. Things are good, remarkably good when you consider what we've endured (stock market 3 yr meltdown, 9/11) and getting better.

[Neal]

I'm happy for North Dakota and Delaware. I'm glad they have low unemployment...but I'm from Michigan, and I'm embarrassed that we are 3rd highest. I'm going to cast my vote this fall based on what I think is best for Michigan, not Delaware.

Maybe you should be looking at Michigan. Granholm is very anti-business, and businesses know that. Also what are Levin and stabinow doing about this problem?

There are some states that are going to be slow to recover from this recession. Specifically those who have relied on manufacturing jobs. Michigan needs to diversify, into other markets.

Neal

[Jimbos]

While Bush had and has as much control over the economys recession and job creation as Clinton had over the 90's boom where I can't defend Bush is his ignoring that there was a problem for so long. Americans realize that a Persident has little control over their jobs but what people want to see is a President acknowledge their suffering in the first place. Why Bush hasn't been browbeating the CEO's in speech after speech to create jobs even if it was a useless endeavor, or why Bush hasn't been screaming from the rooftops at Congress for additional funding for retraining, and changes in the tax code for businesses that expand their psysical plants that will aid in creating more jobs. The first thing I heard him utter regarding jobs was jobs for illegal immigrants which appeared to me to be a major slap in the face of suffering laidoff Americans.
While the oursourcing to India will not stop and in the long run is probably a good thing as a lot of these jobs are run of the mill call center operations, one thing companies pay attention to is taxes and changes in tax codes to benefit business expansion will benefit American's in the long run, unlike Jennifer's little gimmick of requiring companies who do business with the state to report where the products they use were produced. What that does for jobs or job creation or keeping manufacturing companies is beyond me.

P.S. Health care costs certainly play a biggggg factor in job outsourcing and job creation, these costs have to get under control.

[Neal]

Bush hasn't been screaming from the rooftops at Congress for additional funding for retraining, and changes in the tax code for businesses that expand their psysical plants that will aid in creating more jobs.

TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!!.......TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!!!:D

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Neal
Maybe you should be looking at Michigan. Granholm is very anti-business, and businesses know that. Also what are Levin and stabinow doing about this problem?

There are some states that are going to be slow to recover from this recession. Specifically those who have relied on manufacturing jobs. Michigan needs to diversify, into other markets.

Neal

I supported Posthumus in the last vote for Governor...I had issues with Granholm not being from Michigan, and I still do. I also thought she was too beholden to the Detroit political scene.

You hit the nail on the head. We do need to diversify....before things get ugly.

[Jimbos]

I hear ya Neil and the tax cut class warfare of the Democrats is a job killing joke.
Bush pushed the tax cuts but he still hasn't done enough for most Americans to at least acknowledge there's a problem out here. A load of browbeating on companies is overdue, profits are way up, it's time for some job creation, they can afford it.

[Sib]

John Kerry may not tell you he's for outsourcing, but he surely is. Agriculture was one of the first industries in this country to outsource. Hiring migrant workers is outsourcing and the Kerry family enjoy the fruits of those labors with their connection to the Heinz company.

I see know evidence where Kerry has tried to internalize jobs in the very company and industry he has influence over, has he? How come it's ok for him to profit on cheap foreign labor, while other industries get criticized for shopping foreign for labor?

[Chris_Davis]

I'd really have to question any impact Kerry may have had on the Heinze Corp. I meen, if you had a successful business would you let him make changes?

[AceMcbanon]

I don't understand how out sourcing all of our work is a good for the economy or our job market. I'm all for Free trade as long as it is Fair trade.

You can send millions of jobs to China and have them paid the same wage for the next 100 years under a communist wage system. It dosen't improve anything here yet the Chinese goverment profits greatly from supressing their workforce for low wages..

[ESOX]

I guess the "upside" to all this outsourcing is that here in the metro area, good commercial properties are a dime a dozen these days. For sale signs on every block in the old industrial corridors. A building I was looking at last year for 1.4 million just went for 810K. I guess I'll upgrade and get the building of my dreams soon. Now if only I could be assured of customers to sell to who's jobs didn't move to Mexico.:rolleyes:

[Sib]

Certainly if I had a successful business I would be in a constant state of change, it’s when a business becomes static it’s in jeopardy, imo.

Putting myself in Kerry’s shoes on this issue, would I look to create American jobs in the industry and raise the cost of doing business? No, I’d do what Kerry has done and choose to go with cheap foreign labor and try and keep my overhead as low as possible, remaining as competitive as I could be.

I’m not criticizing Kerry for profiting from cheap foreign labor, I’m point out that the man has profited from outsourcing at the same time he is pretending to be a friend of labor. I’m saying it’s rather hypocritical of Kerry to suddenly have an epiphany on America choosing to outsource, while he’s been profiting on outsourcing for years.

[Neal]

WALLTHAM, MA (Talon News) -- A new study released on Tuesday counters the notion spread by the Democratic Party that outsourcing jobs overseas has caused unemployment to escalate in the United States.

Global Insight, an economic research group commissioned by the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) to conduct a study entitled "The Impact of Offshore IT Software and Services Outsourcing on the U.S. Economy and the IT Industry," found that there was a net gain of 90,000 jobs created in the U.S. as a direct result of sending high-tech jobs overseas in 2003.

"While global IT software and service outsourcing displaces some IT workers, total employment in the United States increases as the benefits ripple through the economy," the study revealed.

The study adds that outsourcing will continue to make an impact in the next few years when it "is expected to create 317,000 net new jobs in 2008."

In fact, the study says the job impact from outsourcing will be noticeable in larger states such as California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Additionally, the study shows the ripple effect of the significant increases in employment will also extend to states like Kansas, Nevada, Washington, Arizona, North Carolina, Colorado, South Carolina, Iowa, and Georgia.

ITAA President Harris Miller says outsourcing jobs to other countries has always benefited the United States by creating new jobs as well as increasing personal income for Americans.

"Now we have the data that prove it," Miller exclaimed in reaction to the study. "Far from being an economic tsunami that washes away domestic IT employment as some believe, global sourcing helps companies become more productive and competitive."

However, Miller is quick to point out that there needs to be greater assistance from the government to provide unemployed workers the training and support they need to find another job.

The specific focus of this study examined high-tech service jobs.

The study shows the huge shift in these kinds of jobs being sent offshore will increase spending for computer software and services from $10 billion in 2003 to $31 billion in 2008, more than tripling the amount of spending in four years.

In addition, the total amount of savings generated by outsourcing in the high-tech industry is expected to grow from $6.7 billion to $20.9 billion over the same time period, according to the study.

The study was conducted by Global Insight's chief economist Dr. Nariman Behravesh and Nobel prize-winner Dr. Lawrence R. Klein. Both men conclude that there is ample historical evidence that proves the economic benefits of outsourcing.

"Offshore outsourcing has been going on for decades, and every time it happens, people wring their hands and say we'll become a nation of hamburger flippers," Behravesh noted.

He added, "It didn't happen."

Behravesh discovered that although three million U.S. manufacturing jobs were outsourced during the 1990s, there was a simultaneous creation of 25 million other jobs.

Regarding the claim that outsourcing results in increased wages, the study found that lower inflation and higher worker productivity will cause real wages to continue to climb from the 0.13 percent increase in 2003 to an astounding 0.44 percent spike in 2008.

The study also states that consumer demand for U.S. exports will increase dramatically as prices are lowered on American goods and services. These lower costs will stabilized inflation, increase worker productivity, and lower interest rates.

"This boosts business and consumer spending and increases economic activity," the study concludes.

Interestingly, the study shows outsourcing added $33.6 billion to the U.S. economy in 2003 and forecasts the gross domestic product to increase by $124.2 billion dollars in 2008 as a result of outsourcing.

U.S. Treasury Secretary John Snow trumped the findings of this study in Cincinnati on Monday when he asserted in an interview that outsourcing will strengthen the economy.

"[T]here can't be any doubt about the fact that trade makes the economy stronger," Snow expressed to the Cincinnati Enquirer. "You can outsource a lot of activities and get them done just as well at a lower cost."

He continued, "If we can keep the American economy strong and growing and expanding, we'll create lots of jobs."

Snow said Americans should not fear outsourcing because many other countries around the world are bringing jobs to the United States to more than offset the ones sent overseas.

"I was struck by the fact coming in this morning, the number of foreign companies that have operations right here, proudly displaying their logos," Snow told the Cincinnati Enquirer. "America can compete with anybody. What we need to do is not build walls but tear walls down."

In response to Snow's comments, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) angrily charged that members of the Bush administration are not grounded in reality on the issue of outsourcing.

"I don't understand why the administration persists in making these statements [that outsourcing is good for the economy]," Clinton charged. "It's like rubbing salt in the wound ... they keep having these high-level White House cabinet and secretary officials talking about how outsourcing is good for America."

She exclaimed, "It isn't good for America."

Clinton has been a strong vocal critic of Bush on the issue of free trade over the past few weeks as she attempts to help Kerry in his bid to win the White House in November by attacking Bush's economic record.

[Buddy Lee]

Talon News is a GOP propaganda site.

[lostmale]

They say outsourcing is costing jobs because we cann't compete.
Makes me feel bad their bonuses shrank.
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA09K7QHSD.html

DETROIT (Dow Jones/AP) - Cash pay for autoparts maker Visteon Corp.'s top executives shrank last year because of a cut in bonuses, according to a regulatory filing.
Chairman and Chief Executive Peter Pestillo earned a salary of $1.17 million in 2003, with no bonus, the Securities and Exchange Commission filing said.

In 2002, he earned a base salary of $1.08 million, with a $550,000 bonus, bringing the total to $1.63 million, according to the filing.

However, Pestillo was awarded 1.9 million shares of restricted stock last year, worth almost $18 million at Visteon's trading price $9.44, down 7 cents, at midday Wednesday on the New York Stock Exchange.

Pestillo was also allowed to use the company aircraft for personal uses, costing the company $96,883. Visteon, based in Dearborn, Mich., also made tax payments on behalf of Pestillo, costing $34,207.

President and Chief Operating Officer Michael Johnston earned $856,000 in 2003, with no bonus, compared with a $791,000 base salary in 2002 and a $400,000 bonus.

Chief Financial Officer Daniel Coulson earned a base salary of $574,000 and no bonus in 2003, compared with $527,000 in 2002 and a $185,000 bonus.

AP-ES-03-31-04 1301EST

[Neal]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
Talon News is a GOP propaganda site.

the study was commissioned by the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) ........Are they the GOP?


BTW- If you change your signature to say "Propaganda", It'll save you some time;)

Neal

[Jimbos]

Midwest Hiring Slowdown Dims Job Hopes
Wednesday March 31, 11:48 am ET
By Amanda Cooper

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Job creation unexpectedly stalled in the U.S. Midwest in March, a report showed on Wednesday, tempering optimism that Friday's national employment report will show hiring at last picking up.


A survey of regional business conditions in the Chicago area showed that overall business activity expanded for the eleventh straight month in March, albeit at a much slower pace than many had expected.

The National Association of Purchasing Management-Chicago said its index of Midwest business conditions fell to 57.6 from 63.6 in February. But perhaps more worrying for those banking on the kind of pick-up in hiring that has so far eluded the broader economy, the employment component of the Chicago Purchasing Management Index dropped sharply, to just 49.2 from 54.8 in February, its best reading since April 1998.


http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040331/economy_2.html

[Buddy Lee]

Originally posted by Neal
the study was commissioned by the Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) ........Are they the GOP?


BTW- If you change your signature to say "Propaganda", It'll save you some time;)

Neal

Just calling it like I see it. Post something from Salon.com and I'll call you out for posting liberal propaganda. ;)

[Fishfoote]

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for you."

Fishfoote 2004

[Hamilton Reef]

Betsy DeVos: Michigan workers paid too much

"I hate to tell Betsy DeVos this, but high wages are not a bad thing," Hollowell said. "They're good, and we need more of them."

"To be competitive, we have to resort to getting paid less than the minimum wage?" Ramos-Montigny said. "Is that what she's saying? If that's the case, it won't work, because people won't be able to survive."

"The fact that we had a manufacturing economy which paid people good wages is responsible for our middle class," Hollowell said. "They allowed people to send their kids to college, make improvements on their homes, save for their retirement. That's the American dream. This just underscores how remote the Republican leadership is from ordinary people. ... It means the Republican Party in general just doesn't get it."

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-14/1083163979157460.xml

[Swamp Monster]

HR, check out the other thread on that article. She's right by the way, as long as you disregard the dems putting words into her mouth.

[silversides]

Bush's Treasury Secretary says outsourcing "good for the economy" ?????
I think what the secretary meant to say is that it is good for the Wall St. economy because it sure as hell isn't good for the nations. Outsourcing isnt good for the economy, its good for companies looking to turn a little more profit and CEO's looking to get richer.outsourcing is pure greed. Trying to get from rich to richer. Its only a matter of time before companies realize that their destroying their own consumer base. As they say, "what goes around, comes around."

[fishin' fin]

Its kinda like cutting your foot off to spite your face. :banghead3 I'm sorry to tell you all on the farrrr right :nono: , but Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny are myths also. :yikes:

[Swamp Monster]

Its only a matter of time before companies realize that their destroying their own consumer base. As they say, "what goes around, comes around."

Maybe a little, but not in the big picture. These companies are lowering labor costs to provide you and I with cheap goods. The same Cheap goods we demand on a daily basis. It's a catch 22. Look at the shoes on your feet and the clothes on your back.....cheap imported goods most likely, made by american companies (or atleast what where once American companies). A person has to look long and hard to by a a US made product and 99% aren't willing to make the effort. The market can not compete and is to small, for a product of similiar quality at a 40% increase in price. It used to be that the quality of american work was far superior, well it's still superior in some cases, but the gap has closed considerably.

Fishin' Fin, I continue to be impressed by the highly informational and intellectual posts you bring to these threads........... :rolleyes: :confused:

[Kevin]

Actually cheap labor is only an advantage if you can get similar throughput from it as you would more expensive labor. I saw some research which showed that U.S. manufacturing labor produced a better throughput return per labor dollar, than cheaper alternatives overseas. That is, though labor wages might be lower elsewhere you get a lot less sellable product for that cheaper wage. (If I can track down the article I read citing this I will link it.)

The real culprit is government regulations, from federal to local. Anyone who has attempted to create and operate a company, particularly manufacturing, knows that there is an endless series of legal and regulatory hurdles and impediments - some probably pretty important - but which make the cost of doing business here, versus say India, a difficult trade-off.

The fact is though, is that no sector in a free economy is sacred or protected. The relative value of a product, or skill, or willingness to do an unpleasant task fluctuates over time.
There was a time in the '80's and early '90's when you could make a good living off desktop publishing. Colleges and tech schools offered degrees or certificates in the skill set. When you began to see computers in every home, and versions of the software became more user friendly, and the skill set was shared by a lot more people, I started being able to hire a teenager to do desktop publishing at a very inexpensive rate. Same with web design. You used to be able to charge over a hundred thousand for many websites, but today, you can get it much cheaper. Should we protect these jobs and artificially protect the wage they earn? Most people who did those jobs in the '80s gradually migrated to jobs that commanded a higher wage.
The transition especially sucks if it is done suddenly, and I do not want anyone to be out of work when they honestly want to work, but why do we pick and choose winners and losers in the economy: protect auto mfg, but not other jobs? Doing so only puts off the inevitable, and then the transition is tougher.
I do not have the answers, but history does not support protectionism very well.
Just my two cents

[TheFlyfisher]

Maby employment has stayed the same as in 1994 - 1996 but we all were making alot more money than we are now. How many have lost there jobs right here in Michigan and had to resort to jobs that pay alot less? For that matter, how many have been forced to work two jobs or there wifes forced to work?? How many salary workers that were engineers were replaced by foreign engineers who work for less ?
There were alot of companies that went to other countries that came out and admitted on national T.V that the reason they are leaving isn,t because of the wages they have to pay. What it amounts to is all the tax brakes they get when they ship there crap back here and the pennies they pay there workers over there. You can look at it all you want but it boils down to pure greed of the owners of these companies.
You here all the time people complain when auto workers ask for more money at contract time. They ask for one reason and that is the unions see how much that company profitted and also see what the fat cats are getting for boneses which add up to millions. Why wouldn,t the workers ask for there lousy 3% raise over a four year contract ? And these companies aren,t forced to give the workers crap!! They do it for one reason, because they couldn,t ever justify giving there people millions and not the workers nothing.
I remember when Chrysler was in deep trouble every worker gave up $3.00 an hour to help the company. We did it to save our jobs including managements also. Then we found out the higher ups got raises 4 months later. You can say what you want about about working for a company and not asking for a raise you deserve, or working overtime for nothing, or taking more days off without pay, but the bottom line is when the time comes and these owners want to profit more than they already are, your just a piece of dirt to them and they care less about you and your family. And they will get rid of you in a minute and I don,t care how much you suck up to them in the past.
I have problems with both the Replublicians and Democrats but at least the Democrats are for the working people. They don,t make it there agenda to take away overtime pay, lowering your wages, taking away your parents medical and drugs they need so much, trying to change the social security system thinking we are stupid and didn,t see what happened to the stock market last year, and cutting money off to the V.A which our troops need.
This administration is the worst in history but these company owners won,t admitt it for the simple reason they are profiting from it, and getting richer and richer and your getting poorer and poorer but they will pat you on the back and say what a fine job your doing for there companies untill they don,t need you anymore because they found someone who will work for less.
And if you didn,t notice have you seen how everything has gone up with food, cloths, and everything else, inflation is going to skyrocket which will distroy this so call economy recovery that they lie about.!!!
Stick up for these companies you work for all you want, help them out and give your raises back and tell them they need it more than you, work overtime for nothing, take your work home and do it for free, suck up all you want and see how much they love you when they want to profit more than they already are. " I approve this message"

[Swamp Monster]

You can look at it all you want but it boils down to pure greed of the owners of these companies.


Part of it is greed no doubt...the same greed that the union uses to negotiate contracts. BUT, the fact is that most of these companies are forced to do this to compete. And it's our own fault. Like I said previously, your most likely not going to pay $50 for item A when Item B is the exact same product, quality and all, for $36. When your competition can undercut your price, you have to find away to compete.
It's too bad you had a bad exprience with Chrysler, but I don't have any sympathy. If the wages were so lousy and the management so greedy you should have done something different. Nobody forced you to work there or deal with such a hostile work environment. Well, we know why you stayed, you would have had a hard time matching those wages in the majority of other jobs. And be somewhat thankful these companies were greedy, afterall, what kind of income potential would you have had if thery weren't? They grew the company and the employees and there families all benefited. I will stick up for my company, the more money they make, the more the business grows, the more oppurtunity I have. Capitalism built this country, too bad socialism is going to ruin it.
The big snowjob is that the democratic party is for the working person. News flash...neither party is for the working class. And by the way Flyfisher, I'm sure with the income you earned at Chrysler, the democratic party hardley considered you the working class (atleast on the wage scale). When was the last time Kerry mowed the lawn at one of his 4, milllion dollar properties or when was the last time he shoveled his driveway? Or any other high ranking politician for that matter? They are pandering for your vote, thats it.
Folks in my generation want to change social security, cause those that are collecting it are collecting off my back, thank you very much. Theres a good chance I won't see my money, and it is my money! And this administration did not cause this problem, some seem to think it's a new problem..... :irked: There are plenty of safe and effective ways for ME to invest that money monthly the way I see fit, the stock market is not your only option. I already pay taxes, why do I need to loan our gov't money I probably won't see??

[Swamp Ghost]

AMEN! SM

[kingfisher 11]

SM
You have hit the nail right on the head. Unfortunately some just don't get it. And they think if someone supports Bush or anyone else other then the Democratic party we mindless followers. I happen to think we are the free thinkers and truley see the big picture.

KF

[fishin' fin]

Swamp Monster, thank you for your astute denouncement. I'm sorry but I didn't catch where you received "your" double masters degree. Personally, my first is from the University of Michigan in History and my second is from SVSU in teaching. But then again, I guess true intelligence is being able to surf the net to find a biased statistic!!! :irked:
Seems to me somewhere in that, obviouly usless education of mine, I remember Europe thinking that the baby industries of the United States offered them a similar advantage (cheap goods) and that they would take advantage of the situation. They contended that there would always be a "mind gap" between the two countries. That they would always be superior over this capitalistic experiment we had going on here. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about that assumption. :confused:
Another aspect of this would be to look at the kinds of jobs being shipped overseas. Everyone thinks its not a big loss to send our IT jobs overseas, that they can easily be replace. However, I ask you what happens when we no longer control the making of our own weapontry systems and other vital IT related security jobs? We know that at this very moment the government is also taking advantage of this outsourcing boom, how far is too far? I should not have to begrudgingly explain to you why this is not in this country's best interest to such a patriot as yourself. :yikes:
Finally, is this really making us money over the long run? Companies have already experienced a decrease in their profit margin as they flood the Indian job market. It is only a matter of time before the India or whoever's workers will demand higher wages etc... It will render the "employer" unableto maintain its profits to stay competitive and companies will once again have to look elsewhere for cheap labor or be forced to come home to fix the problems with the American system.
As the employer of 6 full time employees, I find the current system of medical insurance and prescription drug coverage to be daunting. The cost are out of control as are some of the cost of complying with the labor regulations in this country. :banghead3 I agree that their is room for some outsourcing for the betterment of the country, but limitations need to be placed on who can do it and when. Unfortunaly, it is our government who must be the enforcer of controlling and regulating this free market. Which is not happening. I think that if you look at history you will find this to be the case. Think of vertical and horizontal integration, without government regulations a few companies would now control all of the markets in the U.S. There would be no small businesses or mom and pop shops. As to the free thinkers and right wing confused, there was an era when "free sex," oops, I mean "free love" was popular theme, but now AIDS is a nasty reminder that you do need to "think" before you do!! :lol: Why not learn from our mistakes and just fix the problem now, elimnating all of the need to outsource, name call, and party politicing.
Swamp Monster, what I wanted you to say was,"Fishin' Finn, you're welcome at my campfire anytime." And to that I would reply, "Thank you Swamp Monster, I think you are pretty cool too." :D

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Rangers lead the way!!

[Swamp Monster]

The double Masters is impressive :bowdown: I'm sure your very proud of such an accomplishment as well you should. Nope, No masters here for me, though I am seriously considering it, along with a culinary arts degree as well. This will only give me 3 "regular" degrees and a masters though. I'm not complaining, I manage to get my shoes on the right foot most times and I can even tie them correctly!! :p
Honestly Fishin' Fin you would be welcome at my camp fire anytime! Heck, I'd even be happy to let you split the wood!!

[Ranger Ray]

I'd even be happy to let you split the wood!!
Ill split it for less! :p

[Swamp Monster]

LOL!! I should probably mention that payment is usually made in the form of fine distilled spirits or a nice mixture of barley and hops :)

But don't tell my 33 employees that though......I'll be in the red within a week!

[trout]

Throw into the mix a few beads and you might get an island off New York.

[Ranger Ray]

LOL!! I should probably mention that payment is usually made in the form of fine distilled spirits or a nice mixture of barley and hops :)

But don't tell my 33 employees that though......I'll be in the red within a week!
Ah! A payment that is worthy of such work! ;)

[fishin' fin]

Why thank you Swamp Monster, I think you'r pretty cool too! ;) I'll betcha the last beer that Ranger Ray imports pre-split wood from India, that was probably cut down here. :lol:
____________________________________
Rangers lead the way.

[Ranger Ray]

Why thank you Swamp Monster, I think you'r pretty cool too! ;) I'll betcha the last beer that Ranger Ray imports pre-split wood from India, that was probably cut down here. :lol:
____________________________________
Rangers lead the way.
LMAO!

[TheFlyfisher]

Swamp Monster: I didn,t say that I had a bad experience working for Chrysler. As a matter of fact, I would of never worked for anyone else that didn,t have a union. My point was that a company can,t expect to give there fat cats big raises without shareing it with the people who made that company profitable which are the workers.
Do I think that both sides have greed?? Sure but a company can,t justify giving there top dogs big raises and giving there workers nothing which they tryed to do many times. Just like last week the auto companies reported that all there salary top people will receive big raises. Well the unions aren,t going to sit back and say that,s nice but we don,t want nothing. The other thing is that the workers will get very nice profit sharing checks this year which has already been reported. People will complain about that but you never see anyone complain about the raises the top dogs got.
The problem is both sides have greed but if one gets raises expect the other to get one also. It works both ways. I had a great job all my life there and I thank Chrysler for it. I never had problems with management and never went crying to the union. I retired at the age of 49 with a great retirement, and medical that I never have to worry about and my union and my company made that happen.
Both sides have greed problems but remember when there is a contract the union "asks" for what they want but that doesn,t mean that the company is forced into giving it to them. Just like the Americian Axel plant contract, the union got there raises but the company got from the union the right to hire new workers at about half of what the average rate is going for. That was a huge savings to the company and payed over and above of what they had to pay out for the raises. The biggest problem is people only see and here what the unions get but never here what the union has to give up in return.

[Jackster1]

The bottom line? Manufacturing made this country what it is. When we MADE things here everyone was living the high-life. The mid-income earners made good money, paid taxes on that money and, most importantly, BOUGHT THINGS! When we bought things all America prospered. There WERE wealthy people back then too for those of you who suffer from selective memory! VERY wealthy people! So let's see, everyone who wanted to was working, the tax base was huge, crime was down, the 'fat-cats' stayed fat and even those at the bottom rung at least had a glimmer of hope. We were the envy of the world. Manufacturing and being able to manufacture is good. Really.
Our children and their children will shake their heads in shame and dismay at the STUPIDITY our generation had at giving away all that made this nation great.
Point fingers all you want at this administration and that administration, what I see is the present administration doing SQUAT to stem the flow.
According to the State of the Union one bright light is that if you are in prison the government will pay to re-train you to survive in this new economy. Maybe today's kids should aspire to be wards of the state!

[Kevin]

Actually cheap labor is only an advantage if you can get similar throughput from it as you would more expensive labor. I saw some research which showed that U.S. manufacturing labor produced a better throughput return per labor dollar, than cheaper alternatives overseas. That is, though labor wages might be lower elsewhere you get a lot less sellable product for that cheaper wage. (If I can track down the article I read citing this I will link it.)

The real culprit is government regulations, from federal to local. Anyone who has attempted to create and operate a company, particularly manufacturing, knows that there is an endless series of legal and regulatory hurdles and impediments - some probably pretty important - but which make the cost of doing business here, versus say India, a difficult trade-off.

I noticed a column today by Nolan Finley on the impact of taxes and regs on jobs being outsourced: Detroit News May 16 (http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0405/16/a15-153803.htm), pertinent to this thread.

[Ranger Ray]

Thanks for the post Amos. The editorial hit the nail on the head. The taxes are killing the small manufacturing and pattern shops the worse. The pattern shops are all hanging by a thread and a rise in business taxes right now or in the near future would be disastrous. Heck 10% more and my taxes will match that of a Canadian so I guess at that point my health care and retirement should start being covered by the government here like it is there. Can we say Socialism? :yeahthat:

[Jackster1]

That's the Detroit News slant. The reality is the Manufacturers Association is looking out for their own, just like unions! Note the writer says taxes MIGHT be the biggest cause of out-sourcing. Everyone BUT the Manufacturers Union... oops!, Association think the Red Chinese Yuan is under-rated by at least 40%!
Ain't having an administration who sides with the Red Chinese grand? :mad: