Every state is in econmic recovery except MI

[JasonG]

While Kerry was accepting an endorsement from the UAW today after the union first endorest Gephart then Dean now Kerry. Some of Kerry opperatives were stressing how the rest of the country was doing well or getting better but how Mi is laging behind. Everyone is saying it MI is laging behind. Here is my question? If the rest of the country is in recovery and MI is not how is this the Presidents fault, sounds more like local and state officials should be at fault.

[Ranger Ray]

I think your on to something there Jason. Lets here a little more of what your thinking. ;)

[JasonG]

The point I am trying to make is the President is responsible for the national econmic picture as a whole. When you look at the economy of the whole nation the numbers are good dare I say even great. Home starts are at a record high, interest rates are low, and and even the unemplyment rate is down. Of course our interest is not only on the nation but more importantly on Michigan. If the rest of the nation is in positive growth and we here in michigan continue to stumble whose fault is that. I say the blame for our state economic status is the fault of Lansing. Some have blamed the reason on the fact that we are so dependant on manufacturing, but whose fault is it that our work force is only able to do one thing. If we had a diversified work force it would then be able to adapt to the changing economic climate. Basically we as a state have said that we will live and die by manufacturing. We need a new way of thinking in this state. The days od simply depending on the big three are over we need to find new economic areas of growth.

[dogjaw]

Hmm. Listening to news on the radio last night, it was reported that mid - Michigan had the 2nd greatest growth of retail sales in the U.S. behind New York City.

[kingfisher 11]

I think most know my political views here. I am going to stand up and say I don't believe the economy in MI is Granholm's fault.

She has not had enough time to do good or bad. It takes time for any plans to take effect.

Now on the flip side of that. This is also why you can not blame Bush for how bad the economy has been during the first part of his term. You will see his good or bad plans effect us in time. The economy is picking up and has for a while. Look at where the stock market is. I think in some cases it takes many years for some of the long term plans to make impacts.

Look at Clinton, by the end of his last term things were going down the tubes. And he did not even have a 9/11 to deal with.

If Kerry is elected anything good that is going on in the beginning with the economy will not be from his policies.

Nothing happens fast in this big country.

What really keeps the country cranking is spending. Jobs will follow. Keeping the wallet closed effects the economy more then almost anything else (except an attack on our soil) Ask yourself who benefits the most if they can convince the American people the sky is falling and the american people from spending right now?

I see this, that is why I choose to vote for any party other then a Democrat.

I also believe this state might be the biggest UAW state. I wonder how many jobs we are losing are Union. If this is the case maybe some better wake up and figure the writing is on the wall for a loss of union jobs. Not the governments job to step in and force companies to keep the work here. Not free democracy. If you are voting for someone to do this then you are voting for socialism. Eliminating the tax savings for companies to do business overseas will not be enough to stop the bleeding.

[dogjaw]

I've been pondering something for a while :rolleyes: Our economy is driven on spending. Our spending. What businesses took off in leaps and bounds in the late 90's? Debt management, and debt consolidation companies. Americans are mortgaged to the hilt. Our 1990's economy was driven by how much we could borrow. Well, we've reached the end of the rope.

In my opinion, the economy is going to sway back and forth like the markets. It's always adjusting. Economist cried because American was spending, not saving money in the 1990's. Now they cry because we save money, not spend it.

I think folks better look at the whole picture when it comes to voting, not just their party line. Politics have become like a team sport, where the goal is winning the job, not doing what's right. I don't care if your Dem or Repub. My first priority personally, is that who ever is in office (I'm talking congress as well), their first priority is the protection of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. All of them, not just personal favorites.

If we don't, we'll end up like England, Canada, Austrailia, Germany, France etc. We'll have elections, but most of our rights, the ones in the Bill of Rights, will be taken away. It's already happening.

[Moron]

I don't care if your Dem or Repub. My first priority personally, is that who ever is in office (I'm talking congress as well), their first priority is the protection of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. All of them, not just personal favorites.

Exactly!!!!!!;)
So how do we go about changing the business as usual attitudes of the dem and rep parties? Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is what got and keeps us in this situation. Only by losing their voter base will the 2 major parties change or be substituted by other parties.

[lostmale]

Possible cause?

WASHINGTON (Talon News) -- A major taxpayer group is urging likely Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry to stop collaborating with the European Union (EU) to impose damaging tariffs on U.S. products being exported from key swing states in the upcoming presidential election.

Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist noted that Kerry has been touting his popularity among foreign leaders in recent weeks. However, Norquist said he was shocked to learn the extent some foreign leaders will go to remove President George W. Bush from the White House in November.

Norquist points to direct evidence of election tampering by the EU in which they are purposefully applying high tariffs to U.S. goods that are received from key electoral states in the upcoming presidential election in the United States.

For full article go to

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/march/0326_atr_kerry_tariffs.shtml

[Ranger Ray]

Wow! That would be big. I question the article; it states no evidence to back up the claims. Also would think that this would be front page big time.

[dogjaw]

I've found it that a story will get news time only if it says what the that company wants to print or air. I travel and see the same subject look 180 out depending on who was presenting it and how it was edited.

[Sib]

I watched her speak on keeping jobs in the state a year ago. Her grand idea was to create "Cool Cities" and more cyber cafes, no kidding, this is what she prescribed for our economy and the key to keeping jobs in this state.

So, what your telling me about Michigan not recovering seems to reconcile beautifully with her 'vision.'

Complex problems such as economy and employment are difficult issues, which require careful thought and sound visions. Her $4.00 coffee remedy shows me she doesn't even have a clue to what ails this state and shows how far behind the times she is.

I think you answered your own question, yes Granholm is part of the problem, imo.

[ZobZob]

Granholm, like most democrats, have to clean up the budget crisis that republicans make before them (by lowering taxes to get people on their side). I'm torn if I want Kerry to take over the White House because people will blame him for slow recovery much like many people are pointing at Granholm.

Engler = Largest budget deficit in Michigan's History
Bush = Largest budget deficit in U.S. History

Hmmm.... I see a pattern

Zob

[Moron]

ZobZob
I'm not defending Bush and won't be voting for him or Kerry. But in all honesty, Clinton left office just after our economy crested the top of a cycle. This cycle would have continued on the decline even if Gore had been elected or Clinton had been entitled to another term.;)

[Chris_Davis]

Originally posted by ZobZob
Engler = Largest budget deficit in Michigan's History
Bush = Largest budget deficit in U.S. History

Hmmm.... I see a pattern

Zob

So, Engler created the debt for Granholm but Clinton didn't create the debt for Bush? I'm confused, isn't that like twisting things around to see only what you want to see?

Fact is we were on a down cycle in the economy, there's really not a lot a politician can do. It's like blaming hurricanes on Jeb Bush because he's governor of Fla. Michigan got lucky and not-lucky all at the same time. From '93-'00 our government spending only rose 20%, putting us in the top ten for least amount of rise in spending. Unfournately, we didn't do enough to keep skilled labor in the state and free trade competition took our manufactoring jobs, leaving very little reason too do business in the state. Now we need to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and get back to business. Balming Engler, Clinton, Blanchard, NAFTA or free trade with China isn't going to get us jobs. We need to study what the successful states are doing and start gravitating toward successful employment strategies.

[Beave]

Last I checked, Michigan had the highest average wage for manufacturing of anywhere in the world.

Michigan is taking a beating because UAW and other unionized shops were and are making $25/hr for factory work that can be done for the most part MUCH more inexpensively in Mexico or China. Even supplier shops are forced to pay more and give better benefits because of the standards set by the Big3.

Our own Southern states are stealing many of Michigan's manufacturing jobs. If a company still needs educated Americans for skilled factory work, they can set up shop in South Carolina or Tennessee and pay $12/hr with next to no benefits.

Here they'd have to pay more and constantly worry about the threat of unionization.

[The Mutt]

When Granholm took office she touted having to "take over" a $900 million deficit from the Engler administration. Now she wants to make property owners pay their property taxes 6 months early and again in 6 months for 3 hits in 2 years. Why does she want to do this? To help with a $1.3 BILLION deficit. So now she's cutting funding for education yet opening new schools in for jail inmates that are 100% state funded.

At the rate she's going you'll have to be a criminal to get an education or to be able to pay your property taxes. :mad:

[Ranger Ray]

How can you blame her? Don’t you know it’s the last Governor’s fault! He left subliminal messages all over: TAX THEM! TAX THEM! DO STUPID THINGS! :eek: ;)

[snakebit67]

I started to post but ran out of room. So I will try to simplify. The economy is cyclical, It will get better. Stop living beyond your means. If you are just graduating high school stay away from manufacturing. Get a degree in something related to the medical field. Baby boomers will keep you in business for the next 30 years. I know it is hard to change your livelyhood, but examine your line of work and look to see if there is anyplace for your job 10 years down the road. If not, get out now. If you are my age in your mid 30's or younger, invest in your retirement now.

[Moron]

snakebit67
Short sweet and to the point.:)

As you point out the economy is cyclical, and yet about 99% of the threads relate to it. Neither party has a master plan capable of maintaining a positive economy. It, like almost everything else in the universe has to cycle, it's pretty much inevitable!

Seems to me, we as a nation should be more concerned about the direction we're heading. When the majority think more of their pocketbooks than they do of the constitution, we are heading for trouble that will make our differences in economic views mute.

Ever since the 16th amendment was put upon us our nation started to change. It gave the federal government the leverage to circumvent the 10th amendment by forcing the states to bow to the bidding of the feds by withholding moneys it had taken from their residents with the dreaded income tax.

The dependence on the feds started slowly at first, but each generation there after became more and more dependent. Now today we have the guise of a 2 party system that fight like cats and dogs. In reality they are more like one party because neither represents the constitutional republic our founders set up for us.

It's rare you hear any politicians or the media refer to our country as the republic it's supposed to be. In our republic the powers of government are limited to that which is granted by the constitution. The politicians are much happier referring to our country as a democracy. For in a democracy the powers of the government are only limited by what a simple majority will give them.

When the 2 major parties long ago placed hurdles for other parties to get on the ballot and they(the 2 major) have drifted to the point that neither is a champion of the constitution, what kind of country will we have to pass on to our children?

Is our nation also doomed to cycle? That has been the fate of all "democracies" in history. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but couldn't a return to the fundamentals of our constitutional republic save us from the inevitable.

I know there's alot of intelligent people on this forum. If I'm not making any sense with this reply, please educate me.:(

PS. Sorry my reply isn't as short and sweet as your's Snakebit67

[dogjaw]

I know there's alot of intelligent people on this forum. If I'm not making any sense with this reply, please educate me.
I think you did just fine.

It's amazing. Unemployment is at 5.6%. Our company is looking for people, and can't find them. We need service people. Industrial maintenance is a plus, and we can train the right people on refrigeration. We're a refrigeration engineering & contractor company based in South Bend, IN. Travel is involved. We build and maintain ammonia systems for the food, warehouse, and chemical industries. If any of you are interested PM or email me so I can give some specifics. We have health and dental insurance, 401K. Money is based on experience and performance. I do well.

[fishlkmich]

Please explain to me why Bush takes credit for good housing figures and a fair upturn in the Stock Market, yet blames the prior administration for a struggling economy and a few million jobs lost.

While you are at it, please explain why everyone is blaming "Jenny" who inherited a $1.3 billion deficit from a fat cat sitting at a cushy job with EDS who got every state computer purchase bid, without any actual bids from any other company.

Do you think that YOUR Republican lead House and Senate just sit on their *****ES? They are making YOUR tax laws, not "Jenny". She can't do S#!T except an occasional veto and you B!TC# when she doesn't do that!

Apparently some of you think that "Jenny" invented schools for prison inmates, as well!!!

Toto, I don't think we are on Earth any more!

You guys kill me!

Do you all belong to the same right wing Christian Church too? :rolleyes:

ARRGH!!!

Mark

[lostmale]

Well Jenny has a chance to show us her true colors on what she does with the Dove Hunting Bill on her desk. Now won't she?

[dogjaw]

Do you all belong to the same right wing Christian Church too?
fishlkmich,
Sir, you just crossed the line. Let me start by stating I do not belong to a "right wing Christian Church". I am also an independent voter. By the venom in your post, I'm surprised you capatalized Christian. A person's faith is their own. Attacking people about their faith while the topic is the economy, is not only bad form, but unacceptable in any civil discussion. For that, you owe the board an apology. Attack the arguement, not the person.
You personal attack only shows your weak attempt at turning the obvious into what it's not. Trying to chance the subject does not change the facts. Please put your computer to some constructive use and look up the performance history of NASDAQ, S & P 500, and DOW.
Remember all the dot com failures during the 90's ?
Remember your 401k hemoraging like a stuck pig in 1999?
Remember Greenspans warning to all that the market was way over valuated and predicted just what happend?

The whole US economy was in recession 4 years ago, but is growing again. When you fall, you have to climb back to where you were before you can go further. Spouting half truths and lies from a political party does not change that.

The State and Federal budgets are nothing more than that budgets. If you're overtime is cut back, or business dealings hit flat, don't you adjust your budget? Isn't your budget now in deficit? Governments exist by taking away
our money and spending it the way they want. If the money isn't there, too bad. Cut expenses like buying laptop computers for every 6th grader in the state. Have Detroit charge a nickel more for a bus ride instead of taking everyone else's money to pay for it. Before you start assuming again, the examples are from Republican and Democrat programs.

[JasonG]

Do you all belong to the same right wing Christian Church too?

I also took offensive to this statement. Where does this hatred for Christians come from. Your statment speakes of a person full of bitterness or fear. Why does my faith and the views I hold threaten you.
I am not writing this in an arguementive spirit because I have met others like you, but since you felt confident enough to share what you really think I am curious where it is stemmed from.
I am one of those "Right-Wing Christian" by your defination. I think you will be suprised how many spotsmen are what you seem to dispise.

I am sorry that you feel this way and if ever in the Northern Macomb county area on a Sunday I then personally invite to attend church with me. I think you would be surprised.

[The Mutt]

fishlkmich,
Please explain to me why Bush takes credit for good housing figures and a fair upturn in the Stock Market, yet blames the prior administration for a struggling economy and a few million jobs lostMaybe because when he took office housing starts and the stack market were going down and they are now on the rise. I haven't heard this administration say anything about a bad national ecomomy and what's happening in our economy damn sure isn't due to the former administration.

Also by her own words Jenny didn't inherit a $1.3 billion deficit, she inherited a $900 million deficit. It's grown by $400 million since she took office unless she's been lying to us. Now she wants property owners to pay an extra years taxes to help bail her out.Apparently some of you think that "Jenny" invented schools for prison inmates, as well!!! No doubt that statement was directed at me. I don't recall saying Jenny "invented" them but she damn sure is still supporting them with OUR tax dollars instead of that money going to our KIDS. She was willing to cut 12% from the schools budget but not close the schools for the inmates first. Hell she didn't even touch their budget. You want her for your hero be my guest as for me I'd rather have someone in office that can at least put kids first when prioritizing her budget cuts.

[dogjaw]

Also by her own words Jenny didn't inherit a $1.3 billion deficit, she inherited a $900 million deficit. It's grown by $400 million since she took office unless she's been lying to us. Now she wants property owners to pay an extra years taxes to help bail her out.
Isn't forcing everyone to pay taxes early to pay the current budget actually deficit spending? Like borrowing next year's taxes for this year?

[Moron]

Like borrowing next year's taxes for this year?

Agreed.
Won't the permanent trailer plates do the same thing? Increased revenue now as everyone gets them, less revenue in future years?;)

[The Mutt]

Isn't forcing everyone to pay taxes early to pay the current budget actually deficit spending? Like borrowing next year's taxes for this year? Actually no because under Jenny's plan you would STILL have to pay them again when they are due. In effect you would be paying your taxes 3 times instead of 2 in a 2 year time period.Won't the permanent trailer plates do the same thing? Increased revenue now as everyone gets them, less revenue in future years?The permenant trailer plates ARE taking away future revenue but then Jenny doesn't care as it will be a Republican that will have to deal with it when her 1 term is up.:D

[fishlkmich]

lostmale,

"Jenny" will veto the Dove Bill and your Republican legislature knew that she would when they neglected to add a referendum provision to the Bill. They had every chance in the world to do it, but they didn't. It is the Republican lead legislatures's fault that this Bill will be vetoed.

dogjaw, JasonG,

I apologize for my comment if it offended you.

Please allow me to explain why I printed that sentence. Our White House has been turned into a House of Worship. That disturbs me greatly. I have no hatred against anyone, or any religion. I do not believe that prayer vigils belong in the highest government office. This country was created with a big "freedom of religion" thing stuck in there. If our next President decides to take up the Muslim faith mid-term I would bet ten to one that the Christian right would be up in arms against him, or her. The fact that most wars have been fought because of religious beliefs is proof that we should not have a President holding prayer service in the White House. You may disagree, but that is my opinion and I truly believe that religion belongs in Church and not in government. Nobody can argue that Bush is not pushing the Christian right movement to the limits.

Jason, thanks for the offer, but I'm not of that faith (no surprise, I'm sure).

As far as the economy goes, my opinion is that in 99 Greenspan, the stock market and many of us were afraid that GW might win and everyone headed for cover. dogjaw, remember that Greenspan warned Bush about cutting taxes and what it would do to the economy. GW didn't listen and now Greenspan says that SS will be long gone sooner than we expected. GW screwed up by cutting taxes and spending like a Democrat, not to mention sticking us in the middle of a worthless chase after non-existent WMDs. And, before somebody tell me how terrible Saddam was, please give me some idea as to just how long you think that it will take to turn Iraq's government into a nice quiet democracy, with none of this hanging of charred bodies and such. The market is still struggling and will continue to. The job forecasts have been shot to S#!T! Republicans have run our federal and state legislatures, almost exclusively, for years and years. The line item veto power of a Democratic President kept the federal government in line, for a while. Those were GREAT years! dogjaw, tell me which Democrat program I should be looking at. It has to be one that the Republican lead legislature didn't approve.

TM,

The market isn't as strong as it was during the Clinton administration and it isn't making huge leaps. We have lost almost three million jobs.

***??? If you pay all of your taxes in July instead of half and the rest in December where do you come up with paying an "extra years taxes"??? Sounds like "fuzzy math" to me. What grade did you get in math??? If you can prove to me that you will EVER pay more than one year's taxes in one year and never make up for it I'll trade in my 20 years of computer/network (math related) job for a junk truck gig. Let me explain. You pay your taxes (it won't happen until next year BTW) in July instead of half in July and half in December. Get it? Oh, I see, maybe you used to wait until just before penalties started to add up the following year and THEN paid them. But, you STILL paid one year of taxes for ONE YEAR! This will not change!!! You just have to push your whole July bill out until the last minute. I'm sure that you understand, now.

I won't take the time to prove what deficit she inherited from the guy who drained our state's budget surplus. He did the same thing that GW has done. He took the money from us. Now you blame "Jenny" for it. Of course you haven't heard anything from "this administration about a bad national economy". I double guarantee that you won't - bad politics. The economy still sucks and I'm glad that you admit that it's not the fault of the Clinton administration!

Exactly when are your Republican legislators going to do something about this prison funding? Do you realize that we keep stuffing prisoners into cells like no other nation? Most of them are non-violent BTW. Kinda makes you proud of your Republican leaders, don't it? "Jenny" is a slave to your Republican leaders. Start writing those letters!!!

And, last but not least, Mr. Moron,

Many of us benefit from the $75.00, one shot, license fee. I'm keeping my boat for a LONG time. Da, da, da, da, da, I'm lovin' it!

Mark

[Moron]

Many of us benefit from the $75.00, one shot, license fee. I'm keeping my boat for a LONG time. Da, da, da, da, da, I'm lovin' it!

I never said users didn't benefit from it. The point I was making is that the state is getting more revenue now, but will get less in the years to come. So it amounts to a quick fix now that will amount to a revenue shortage later. Not to worry though, I'm sure they'll come up with another quick fix when the need arises.;)

[kingfisher 11]

I was in buying my first of three plates I will need this year. I think after I get over the initial hit a the three plates I will be quite happy. It is a heck of a deal for those who keep there trailers over 3 years.

My fifth wheeler is $83 each year. It is now $200. In 2.5 years I will be ahead in the game and won't have to worry about renewing each year. Same with my boat traliers. $22 each year, 4 years and I am good.

As for the one time fee, stupid for the state. I think they would have just been better off to raise each annual plate fee. This is just a quick fix and they will have to find more new money later. Looks to me its no different then what most politicians do. Make themselves look good now and not worry about what the future officials have to do.

This is the case for all parties. Engler was no saint either. I just get tired of the democrats sending all the working classes money into the black holes like Detroit. That is one thing I will say about Engler, might be one of the only good things. He revamped the welfare program. Tried to cut off welfare to those who could work.

[The Mutt]

If you can prove to me that you will EVER pay more than one year's taxes in one year and never make up for it I'll trade in my 20 years of computer/network (math related) job for a junk truck gig.Might just want to go pick yerself up some tinker toy tools there bubba. There's a few "junk trucks" that need fixin or aren't you a man of your word?

I did just Ducky in school and math in particular and my taxes are paid from an escrow account so no I don't "wait until just before the penalties start".

http://www.thetimesherald.com/news/stories/20040328/localnews/166055.html

Under Granholm's plan "Taxpayers would make three county property tax payments in two years, instead of two in two years. Under the new plan, property owners would have taxes due in February 2004 (billed in December), September 2004 (billed in July) and September 2005. Under the current system, you have to pay by February 2004 and February 2005."

Now I don't know about where you went to school but where I went we learned that if you paid $1000 once each year on a specific date and then that date was moved up oh let's say 6 months with no additional benefit and never pushed back that 6 months it was called an increase. I would think that your "20 years of computer/network (math related) job" should make that fairly easy for even you to comprehend.Do you realize that we keep stuffing prisoners into cells like no other nation? Most of them are non-violent BTW. Kinda makes you proud of your Republican leaders, don't it?Damn straight it does. If you can't follow the laws in this country then your backside belongs in jail or prison. I can't believe you even have a problem with that.

[fishlkmich]

TM,

From YOUR refernce:

"The rate of the tax and the amount of the tax are unchanged; only the timing of payment changes. The tax is collected in the same calendar year and would be deductible under federal income tax law in the same year under existing and proposed practice."

That is my point.

[lostmale]

Originally posted by fishlkmich
lostmale,

"Jenny" will veto the Dove Bill and your Republican legislature knew that she would when they neglected to add a referendum provision to the Bill. They had every chance in the world to do it, but they didn't. It is the Republican lead legislatures's fault that this Bill will be vetoed.



So we were lied to when before election we were told things like this quote
http://www.keweenawnow.com/news/granholm_conservation_02_11/granholm_conservation_02_11.htm

She represents "the best opportunity in 20 years for Michigan voters to restore Michigan's conservation priorities, while protecting the public trust, and allowing sound biological science (and not politics) to guide the management of our natural resources," said Natural Resources Consultant Jim Goodheart.
Sounds like she is using politcs on this issue and not sound management of our natural resources.

[dogjaw]

Republicans have run our federal and state legislatures, almost exclusively, for years and years. The line item veto power of a Democratic President kept the federal government in line, for a while.
First of all, you better tell Presidents Clinton, Bush, and the United States Congress that they passed a line item veto bill. They don't seem to remember it. There is no line item veto. Clinton and Bush both have asked for, and I think no president will ever get it. It's too much power in the hands of one person, and crosses the line of separation of powers.

The Dems held congress for 40 years. They lost it after Clinton took office and they raped us with taxes, tried to have the government control our choices in health care, and rip the guts out of the 1st and 2nd amendments.

The market is still struggling and will continue to. The job forecasts have been shot to S#!T!
Yesterdays news releases by NBC, CBS and ABC news seem to disagree with you. Oh, and don't forget Greenspan, who thinks the economy is so hot, he might raise interest rates to slow it down for fear of inflation.
The DOW was at ~10,400 yesterday.
January's job growth numbers + 159,000 jobs
Febuary's job growth numbers + 46,000 jobs
March's job growth numbers + 308,000 jobs
That equals 513,000 new jobs since the beginning of the year. A half million jobs in 3 months isn't too shabby. Since August, job growth has been 3/4 of a million.

This country was created with a big "freedom of religion" thing stuck in there.
That's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Where in blue blazes did Bush make a law respecting an establishment of religion??? The president also lives in the White House, so if he wants to pray in it, more power to him. The Clintons were shown on national news every week going to church. Haven't heard you complain about that? Read that next part about the free exercise thereof.

And where is you contempt for Kerry and the Dems who give political speechs from church pulpits every other day? If there ever has been a case for churches becoming PACs, this is it.

I hope every president and member of congress believe in a Supreme Being and prays. Without it, no person has a moral compass or anything to base their sworn word on.

Greenspan says that SS will be long gone sooner than we expected Whose this we stuff? Expected to be gone? I expect it to be there.
Q: Which party took Social Security from an independent fund and put it in the general fund so that Congress could spend it?
A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the Democratic-controlled House and Senate.
Q: Which party put a tax on Social Security?
A: The Democratic party.
Q: Which party increased the tax on Social Security?
A: The Democratic Party with Al Gore casting the deciding vote.
Q: Which party decided to give money to immigrants?
A: That's right, immigrants moved into this country and at 65 got SSI Social Security. The Democratic Party gave that to them although they never paid a dime into it. Then, after doing all this, the Democrats turn around and tell you the Republicans want to take your Social Security. And the worst part about it is, people believe it!

[The Mutt]

Here's a few more quotes from MY reference.

Bonnie Sumner, a mortgage banker with Seaway Community Bank in St. Clair. "This (could) have quite an impact on escrows," she said. "Tax escrow is calculated for future anticipated tax bills from the tax bills from the prior year ... consequently, if the borrower's tax bill date and total is changed, it would leave everyone's tax escrow account with a shortage.

"When a change is made this late, it would make it extremely difficult for mortgage borrowers to handle this change-adjustment shortage within that time."

Michael LaFaive, director of fiscal policy for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a conservative think tank in Midland "The shift in the property-tax payment is an increase in taxes. Taxpayers have already paid for county services for 2004 with their (winter) tax payment. By moving up the date of our next payment, we're being forced to pay for services twice."

Sanilac County Treasurer Kathy Dorman. "Under this proposal, our property taxpayers will pay the county operating millage twice within a six-month time period," she said. "Gov. Granholm's budget proposal ... will be a real disservice to property taxpayers."

"For it not to be an increased tax, at some point taxpayers should get 18 months without paying, officials said. This does not happen under Granholm's proposal".

St. Clair County Administrator Troy Feltman. "To me, it's like not getting a paycheck for the first two weeks you work because the employer witholds the first pay," "The problem in this situation ... the employee doesn't get the two weeks' pay back at the end of employment.

"My question would be, are we simply raising taxes in a given year to move to this new system?"

Geez my quotes beat your quote 4 to 1. So let's see now. I have a mortgage banker, the director of a think tank, a County Treasurer and a County Administrator who agree with me. Now be a good liberal and keep your word get out there and get yourself a nice little toolbox full of Playschool tools.

[fishlkmich]

TM,

You mean four conservative Republican’s analysis to one liberal Democratic analysis. You see, numbers and statistics can be interpreted by many folks and distorted by many folks in different ways. Let’s see how your conservative Republican Legislature acts on this SUGGESTION. I’ll keep my toolkit ready. Are you willing to give anything up if your conservative Republican Legislature agrees that this is a good idea? Remember, THEY will be the ones that pass this if it is passed.

lostmale,

The Governor put the cards on the table. She told your Republican Legislature EXACTLY what they had to do for her to sign the Bill. They have not done so, as yet. Do you believe that the Governor should always sign ANY Bill that has passed the legislative process, even if strong lobbies are making the decisions instead of asking the people of this state what they want? That is what our Governor has asked YOUR Legislature to do. With no referendum language in the Bill it was doomed. The majority of the people of the State of Michigan did not want Dove hunting, so YOUR Legislature tried to find a way to circumvent the will of the people. YOUR Governor had decided that the will of the majority of the people in this state should decide this matter, not lobbyists.

I guarantee that Democrats care a lot more about the environment than Republicans do. Without strong environmental laws your hunting and fishing pleasure will vanish. GW has done more to destroy our environment in a few years than any President has in the past. Your Governor will do more to rectify the lack of environmental leadership that the Engler administration ignored.

dogjaw,

Where you been, man? Never heard of :

The Line Item Veto Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-130, 110 Stat.
1200)

In 1997 President Clinton used this new veto 82 times to delete unnecessary expenditures in 11 spending bills. The savings to taxpayers total nearly $2 billion over five years. True, in a $1.75 trillion annual budget, this is not a huge sum. But even by Washington standards, $2 billion is still real money -- and a whole lot of pork.

AND it gets worse! Check out:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Then there’s:

To be sure, the economy has a substantial way to go to replace the 2.5 million private sector jobs lost since the president's arrival in office in January 2001, some 560,000 of which were lost since the start of the recovery in November 2001.

Labor force participation -the fraction of Americans either working or looking for work remained at a near 16-year low in March, as many potential workers remained on the sidelines.

Nearly one in four unemployed workers -- 23.9 percent -- has been out for six months or more, a 20-year high. The situation of the long-term jobless has grown considerably more difficult since the White House and Congress discontinued federal extended benefits at the turn of the year. The extended program offered up to 13 weeks of cash assistance.

Your numbers are off. I’ll dig up the REAL numbers. Just from memory I believe that the reported gains for January were 120,000 and then downgraded to 90,000+. Never gonna get those three million jobs back by this rate (even with your figures!) - READ MY LIPS!

If the President wants to use the White House, which belongs to the people, not the President, for religious ceremonies then there should be equal time! One day we do a Christian thing, the next a Jewish, then Hindu...

Would you have all Atheists and Agnostics banned from the ability to hold a job in any political office? Would that not defy the freedom of religion clause?

And we go on:

Q: Which party took Social Security from an independent fund and put it
in the general fund so that Congress could spend it?

A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the Democratic-controlled House and Senate.

FALSE

Q: Which party put a tax on Social Security?
A: The Democratic party.

FALSE

Q. Which party decided to give money to immigrants?
A: That's right, immigrants moved into this country at 65 and got SSI Social Security. The Democratic Party gave that to them although they never paid a dime into it.

FALSE

I provide MORE references (something that you should consider, instead of throwing out random thoughts):

http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/news/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000003

You are running yourself against a wall. I have proven that you have nothing but random thoughts, views, opinions and unsupported figures. Go back to the drawing board! This is just too time consuming proving you wrong on most of what you post. I’ll continue to do so, if you insist.

Mark

[dogjaw]

Done wasting my time. The truth shall set you free. You need to rid yourself of your chains. Acceptance of the truth will do that for you. Good luck. The key is there, all you have to do is accept it.