Move Gun Deer Season After the Rut

[Trophy Specialist]

Currently and historically Michigan's firearm deer season starts on November 15, which coincides with the peak of the rut. The timing of our gun deer season undoubtedly is the downfall of thousands of bucks every year and contributes to over-harvesting of our buck population and creating a lopsided buck to doe ratio. Most states that have a much higher percentage of the harvest made up of mature bucks have general firearm seasons after the primary rut, and their gun seasons are shorter. I'd like to see the firearm deer season moved to the first part of December and shortened to one week. I think that if we made that change, the quality of our deer herd would improve dramatically. What do you think?

[Bow_Hunter]

I agree......

Hard to change tradition though......

My guess is it will not happen..... too much money tied up in the traditional Nov 15th and a 15 day season.

I would like to see it be a season that lasts from:

1st Saturday in December through the end of the day on the 2nd Saturday of December.

[mich buckmaster]

I agree, I would like to see Michigan go to a 7 day hunting season with the season being the last weekend in November with the remainder of the gun season being the first weekend in December. This will make more guys take only one weekend off to camp, and then in turn will make guys shoot MORE does, because of less time. In return we will allow the bucks to do their thing during the rut, and still have enough time to harvest enough deer.

This is just MY opinion, so don't start bashing.;) :p

[jme]

FWIW I've thought many thimes that a special "Doe Only" gun hunt weekend toward the middle of October would be interesting. A buck/doe season for gun hunting would be held later, perhaps the 7-day season in December. Bowhunting is my first love and I realize that an October gun hunt would certainly tick off a lot of bow hunters. However, bowhunters would then have ALL of November to ourselves! In the meantime, a lot of does will have been harvested, making for a more intense rut because the bucks will have to look more actively for a receptive doe. The nicer weather in October might encourage more kids to take up the sport. It might also help aging hunters who can't take the cold.

My $.02

John E.
Ypsi

[Ferg]

go for that - would be just fine with me -

ferg....
ymmv :D

[Alibi]

I am not convinced that changing the dates of the firearm season would contribute effectively towards the idea of preventing over harvest of the buck population in regards to the buck to doe ratio or increasing the buck numbers in the wild. There is much more to the lopsided buck to doe ratio that dates of a season. Hunter attitudes are the only way the buck to doe ratios are going to get better along with some changes made in the laws. The question that becomes difficult to answer is; will/would major changes affect hunter attitudes in such a way to make it even more difficult to get the buck to doe ratio in line? Not just in a small area but large areas if not throughout the entire state. The use of multiple antlerless permits, even the years with unlimited antlerless permits have not worked in getting the buck to doe ratio in line. Therefore, what hunters are you going to get to shoot more does to get it in line? I doubt seriously that there are presently very many numbers of hunters who do not hunt anymore because of anything to do with the present deer population.

[fudgie]

I can see two outcomes from this change. First the woods are already crowded enough without putting everyone out there in one week. Second, those that are limited as to when they can hunt might just give it up entirely. We need to encourage participation in our sport for it to survive.

[davidshane]

To change the dates of rifle season would be one giant step in the right direction, that is if you want to see Michigan's deer heard reach its potential. Did anyone hear someone say IOWA? Protecting a few of the yearling wouldn't hurt either, but thats been beat to death.

However, everyone knows that changing the current situation is a long ways off. There are still way to many guys out there that hunt a couple of days a year and want to be able to shot a spike. It seems the majority still puts down QDM and the people who promot it. They do not and will not understand what is possible.

Trophy, if sportsman could vote on this issue , you'd have my support!!!!!!!!!

[grizzlyadams73]

yup ill go along with a shorter season as long as it includes the arrow flingers during that week

[djkillaz]

I think it would be easier to either cut out the amount of buck tags giving or having a season that allows mature bucks to be taken. The legislative has to get involved on proper deer management. The area where I grew up (Baldwin) area people shoot any thing w/ horns. and this a problem in all areas of Michigan. I ran into 5 guys this year at bow season in Baldwin that said they shot nice bucks. When I seen them I laughed. And told them they were idiots and shouldnt be allowed to hunt. 3 of them shot button bucks and the other 2 had a small 4 pointer and a small 3 pointer. This is why we are losing our buck population. Also, Mature does need to be harvested also. not just any doe that walks by. This will never happen due to the fact that most hunters could care less. They just have the idea that:" if its brown its down" in there head!!!!

[just ducky]

I beg to differ about the timing of the rut coinciding with Nov. 15th. From what I've seen, most years it gets real heavy the first week of November, and it's usually over by gun season opener. I can recall a couple of times taking a buck on the 15th or 16th that was obviously rutting, but I think the bowhunters are getting the best crack at the rutting bucks right now. Obviously the weather plays a big part in the timing.

I've suggested in the past the possibility of reversing bow/gun seasons and give the gun hunters first crack at 'em. Before you run me out of dodge, some of the western states have an early gun season already, with the bow season following. Obviously that would really PO the bowhunters though.

[Luv2hunteup]

Bad idea as far as I'm concerned.

The winter deer migration begins about mid-November where I'm at as it is. Any later opener would really hurt my area.

As far as I'm concerned more deer are on the move and visible during the seeking/chase phase of the rut. Lets get rid of bow season during that time of year if over harvest of any mature bucks are a concern. It starts sometime around October 1st. :D

Just like QDM, you can practice it voluntarily if you choose TS. :eek:

[reddog719]

I think it should stay where it is. I also think they should go back to only one buck and one doe if your application gets picked. no more unlimited doe tags. no more than one buck a year.

[Swamp Monster]

I've said that very same thing many times and continue to think it is a good move. Make the season start the Friday after Thanksgivng, make it 10 days so covers two full weekends this way the weekend warriors can get out....many of whom wouldn't hunt more than two weekends anyway. The UP would have to be different for the reasons Luv2hunt mentioned....migration. BUT, make it only ONE tag so if you go up to the UP and score, your done for the season in the lower except does ofcourse.
If you look at the states that have the mature bucks and in some cases a much better buck to doe ratio you will find a couple of commen denominators. Those are short gun seasons and gun seasons that begin after the rut.
Someone mentioned that the rut is done with but I don't fully believe that. Many of the mature deer may have already done much of the breeding, but those yearlings are still anxious to get in on the action and are more vulnarable then ever.
I know the 15th is tradition, but tradition is not the best method for managing our heard. The insurance industry would be up in arms though if we proposed shortening the season....or anything that manages our heard more effectively for that matter.

[twodogsphil]

I agree with JD that the rut starts earlier! If you want to protect vulnerable bucks in the rut from hunters, you would also have to shut down bow season at least by The end of October.

[buktruk]

I would love to see that.

[farmlegend]

Short gun season, beginning after peak breeding, is probably the biggest reason for the big difference in hunt quality between Wisconsin and Michigan.

Iowa, Ohio, and Kansas also have gun seasons starting much later than ours. Wonder how the deer hunting is in those states?

Incidentally, it has been established by credible studies, that peak breeding in southern Michigan occurs between the 15th and 16th of November.

[jimmyboy]

KY has always had firearm season opening in the first two weeks of Nov(ahead of MI) and has an excellent buck/doe ratio and plenty of mature bucks to show for it. And yes,they shoot does too.So much for the late gun opener theory. KY also just extended their gun season from 9 days to 2 weeks in length last season and has always had a Saturday opener to boot,not to mention a youth hunt and early mzl weekend in late Oct prior to their gun season. MI has to change hunter culture in order to see any improvements. As long as spikes and forkies are continously slaghtered along with button bucks,nothing will change. It's all about the culture. Let 'em go-so they can grow.

[Swamp Monster]

I wouldn't use one state to wash out an entire theory, especially a theory backed up by Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinios, Iowa, and Kansas. Check out hunter numbers and the overall length of the Kentucky season. I doubt they have a half million people (or more) in the woods during gun season! Huge difference!

[Swamp Monster]

Here are Kentucky's season dates. BTW, they only made 2 zones 15 days, the oher 2 zones stayed at 9 days. Soundsl ike they have a population problem in a couple of areas.
http://www.kyafield.com/031004.asp

[NorthJeff]

I'd vote to move it, and shorten it to a 3 day-5 day weekend. Also, since were on a "wish list", it wouldn't be bad to have a "doe-only" mid-September hunt to attain a more effective anlterless harvest in areas that need it.

[Trophy Specialist]

The rut in the south peaks later than it does in northern states. I hunted southern IN last year and their rut peaks there during early Dec. Kentucky is starting their season before the rut. For two years in a row I killed mature bucks in the UP around Thankgiving. Both were chasing does. From my observations hunting the UP for 30 years, the last two weeks of November up there is the peak breeding period.

The winter deer migrations in the UP start when the snow piles up, not by a certain date. Some years it occurs Nov. 15, other years it happens much later. It all depends on the weather.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by NorthJeff
it wouldn't be bad to have a "doe-only" mid-September hunt to attain a more effective anlterless harvest in areas that need it.
I'd second that motion.

[NorthJeff]

The peak of the rut in the U.P., according to John Ozoga's chartings of the actual breeding of 100's of does, is Nov. 11th. Personally, I've found the first 2 weeks of November to be an awesome hunt in the U.P., where the bulk of the doe herd is bred within a 2 week window. Most of the bucks I've seen during gun season were with a doe, making them sometimes easy pickings for the multitude of bait hunters in the woods. In PA, the opener of rifle is the Monday after Thanksgiving, and out of the last 11 seasons I've hunted there the rut was mostly over every year. Also, in WI the gun season starts the Saturday before thanksgiving, and falls during the rut approximately 1/7 years.

On the other hand, in AL the past 2 years the rut was in full swing in Mid-January.

Our winter migration here in the U.P. was the end of gun-season through early December last year, but was much later the previous 2 winters, and slightly earlier in 2000-2001.

Even in the worst snow areas last year north of Melstrand towards Grand Marais, where they experience close to 400" of snowfall annually, the deer were still around in plenty the first part of December last year. Most years the migration is early to mid december in the U.P. In fact, the last time we had a strong migration during rifle was 2000-2001, where the last deer to come through my property was Dec. 12th, and the migration started strong around the 17th of November....it was completely over in only about 3 weeks, and no deer returned until April.

Deer will gather in thermal pockets when just about any snowfall occurs, and even though the migration trails may be active, this is not the migration starting. I complete a camera census of the migration each year, and in 2001-2002, which was a pretty mild winter, the migration trails were active for almost 2 months. The difference though, was that I captured just about as many deer going BOTH ways, on the trail, indicating that while it appeared the migration was taking place, the deer were actually just traveling back and forth between winter thermal cover locations.

[Bushwhacker]

Terrible idea as far as I'm concerned, probably would be the end of my deer hunting after 50 years. You guys do what you want down there in Troll land, but leave the UP alone. Most years we can't hunt the second week of season as the snow is too deep to get to our area and the deer have moved out to the yards anyway. There certainly are none left around by December. Just what we need, let's cut the season for real hunters and let the idiots in camo stick some more arrows in some does and fawns. If those flatlanders in Wisconsin and those other plains states have it so good, there certainly are alot of them in the UP on Nov. 15.
Bushwhacker

[bowhunter4life]

I don't think it will happen because of tradition, Like a few other of you guys have said. However I would like to see it come later in the year. If you look at some of the states with the highest number of boone and crockett entries, most of these states have a gun season that falls sometime in December. I think it would help in the quality management of our deer herd. I would also like to see it shortened to a 7 or 9 day season. Just my opinion.

Jay

[just ducky]

Northjeff,
That's what I was saying about the timing of the rut. Our experience here in South Central MI is that the rut typically hits its height the first week or two of November. Scientific studies or not, I have two close friends who happen to bowhunt my property who are emergency dispatchers down here. They can tell immediately when the rut begins because the number of car deer accidents spikes up dramatically. Yeah we've probably all shot bucks in gun season that were obviously still rutting around, and I believe the timing does vary some each year. But our experience is the bulk of it occurs before gun season begins. The die hard bowhunters that I know don't really get excited until Halloween. That first 10 days of November seems to be like mass suicide around this part of the state....whether it means taking an arrow, or taking on a vehicle.

[NorthJeff]

"Just what we need, let's cut the season for real hunters and let the idiots in camo stick some more arrows in some does and fawns."

.....REAL hunters?:rolleyes:

[NorthJeff]

JD,

The 11th is the average, with the bulk of the breeding occuring a week before, and a week after the 11th. I think the best all around hunting is the first 2 weeks of November. But, during the 15th-20th I believe most bucks are with does, making them suseptable to following a doe into a bait pile during the average U.P. gun hunters season...the first few days. Even just moving opening day to the weekend before Thanksgiving would make a difference.

[Trophy Specialist]

In my opinion, the best buck hunting occurs from Oct. 25 - Nov. 10. According to most articles I've read in magazines, this period in Michigan is referred to as the pre-rut. It's when a few does come into estrus and the bucks go wild seeking out hot does that are in short supply. The peek of the rut is when most does come into estrus. At this time, most mature bucks are with estrus does. Another advantage to moving the season later is that it would allow all the does to get bred before most of the bucks get whacked during gun season. It would also allow the bigger, more genetically superior bucks to do the breeding, which would strengthen the gene lines.

[Bushwhacker]

North Jeff,
I thought that might get a rise from someone, LOL. But seriously, I never could see how you could call being perched in a tree like a buzzard, dressed in military want-to-be that is supposed to stop your stink, with a bunch of strings and pulleys in your hand, to wound a fawn, over a pile of veggies, hunting.
We have hunted the Superior watershed for 40 years, no baiting, no does, no bucks under 6 point, and no sitting for more than an hour. To each his own way, but don't try to make us hunt like the southerners.
Bushwhacker

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Bushwhacker
I never could see how you could call being perched in a tree like a buzzard, dressed in military want-to-be that is supposed to stop your stink, with a bunch of strings and pulleys in your hand, to wound a fawn, over a pile of veggies, hunting.
Don't knock it unless you've tried it. Everybody that I know, myself included, that hunt with both bow and gun, much prefer bowhunting.

[Swamp Ghost]

Bushwacker, so plugging away at 300 yards with a scoped 30/06 out of a heated hut is? LOL!

[mich buckmaster]

To each his own way, but don't try to make us hunt like the southerners.

Talk about contradicting yourself, you say that ALL bowhunters use bait, stands, and all the other stupid things you mentioned, but to each his own!!!!!!!!!:( :confused: :mad:

Some people just need to stay in their own country and not hunt in our SOUTHERN State.

Incredible!!

[jme]

FWIW ....seems to me that part of what we want by moving gun season to December is a more balanced herd. Tradition and attitudes run strong in Michigan. To be blunt, I don't think we're going to make a change in hunter beaviror during gun season. If a forkhorn and a doe are standing next to one another I'll bet you a million dollars that the average weekend warrior will take the buck every time. A couple postings, including one of mine, suggested early doe-only gun hunts. If we want more doe harvested we need doe-only hunts. Another idea that's floated through my mind is to have a series of weekend doe-only gun hunts in different parts of the state. The hunt for the NW part of the lower peninsula could, for instance, be the second weekend in September. The NE is the 3rd weekend. For the bottom half of the LP it's the last weekend.

Finally, I support the notion o using a buck tag for ANY buck you kill. If you shoot a button then you must use your buck tag. This might help guys be more selective.

Less than 200 days until bow season!
John E.
Ypsi

[jimmyboy]

TS-FYI, I just called KY wildlife folks and they say the peak of the rut here occurs during the modern gun season. That agrees with my own KY experience. And as so.IN is only 40 miles north of my place,I would by very surprised that the rut there is much later. Tho some breeding here does occur in the second and third rut periods. SM points out the 'population problem' with a shorter gun season in zones 3&4 located in the eastern mountainous area of KY. There has never been many deer in the east,thus the shorter season- altho some nice racks still come from that region. KY, surprisingly to many, is not geographically a 'southern' state but a midwestern one located due east of KS,MO, & so.IL and borders the southern state of TN to its south. As for getting the MDNR to change the gun deer season dates,it ain't gonna happen IMO.

[Ferg]

where in KY do you hunt, I'm only about 35 miles south of Ft Campbell area -

ferg....
When I'm not in Harrisville....:)

[Bushwhacker]

Trophy,
That's fine, you do what you like, you bowhunters can hunt how long, two or three months? Now you want to cut out my hunting entirely.

Swamp,
Never sat in anything, and never shot over 100 yards, can't even see that far where we are.

Buckmaster,
I knew someone would bring up the country thing, which is why I don't usually get into any political threads, but when some hunters want to stop my hunting I had to reply. Just to set the record straight, I was born in Michigan, grew up there, went to school there, served 5 years in the Marines, a year in Nam, am still a US citizen, so I think your Southern state is just as much mine as yours. Let's not take that any futher. Just leave the gun season in the UP the way it is.

Bushwhacker

[mich buckmaster]

Its not STOPPING the hunting, but re routing it do a better time!!

[Bushwhacker]

mich buckmaster,
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but what is better for the LP is not always better for the UP. I think we've said here before that the state is too big for one system. All I know is if you open it in Dec. where we are most years there are no deer. I tried muzzleloading season one year, great snowmobiling, but no deer.
Bushwhacker

[Fencereaux]

I think there's some confusion here about the "peak of the rut" vs. peak breeding dates.

Peak breeding dates are fairly easy to scientifically estimate, based on fawn drop dates, examination of fetuses, etc. Studies in southern Michigan have indicated that the most common dates for breeding are within a couple days either side of November 16.

Where you reach the point of the peak average breeding date, most of the phenomena that we associate with "the rut" has generally subsided. Most of the chasing, scraping, etc. generally occurs PRIOR TO the breeding phase of the rut. My records indicate that the bulk of visible rutting behavior is predominanly between the tail end of October through about November 12, whereupon breeding activity generally commences and the more visible rutting activity declines.

[huntingfool43]

All in favor of moving it to December as long as they close deer hunting all together from the middle of October untill gun season opens, why should bow hunters be allowed to hunt the rut and no one else?

[mich buckmaster]

but what is better for the LP is not always better for the UP. I think we've said here before that the state is too big for one system.

That is one thing I do agree with, and sometimes it is hard for me to relate, because I do come from Southern Michigan, and not the UP. THere are places I have never visited or hunted in the UP.

I am just ready for our state to step up and make some changes.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Bushwhacker
I tried muzzleloading season one year, great snowmobiling, but no deer.
You've made some good points bushwhacker. Where I hunt in the central U.P. we are not in the heavy snow belt, but we are not in the banana belt eithor. We get plenty of snow, but not anywhere near what they get just 20 miles to the north of us. I've never done any deer hunting in the Lake Superior watershed in Michigan and that's by choice. I like to hunt big swamps where there are moderate deer densities as I feel that I have the best chance for taking the kind of deer I'm look for with those conditions. Our deer do migrate in our area, but I hunt where they are migrating too. Our hunting gets better when we have big snowfalls. I've never hunted our U.P area during muzzleloader season because I've not had a buck tag left during December since they changed the limit from four bucks to two many years ago. My U.P. neighbors have told me that it gets better then though. Like others have stated, I serioiusly doubt that the DNR will ever change the firearm season opener. It's like a Michigan holiday in many areas. The DNR will likly apply more QDM type regulations rather than mess with the timming or duration of the gun hunt.

[jimmyboy]

FERG - in Hells Neck Holler

[TrailFndr]

and here I always thought, that the seasons, and bag limits were supposed to be set by...what was it again....Oh Yeah...."SOUND SCIENTIFIC MEANS" so WHY are we even discussing any sort of change? NONE of us are biologists, nor do we work for, or control those that are in that position. Legislation should NEVER be used to change seasons or bag limits.

Heck...in My opinion, Legislation should NEVER be needed to say yes or no to a Dove hunt...ALL wildlife decisions should be left to those trained, Skilled, and paid to manage those resources, and hte legistators ain't the ones to do it. Neither are WE...

[WALLEYEvision]

Originally posted by Trophy Specialist
Don't knock it unless you've tried it. Everybody that I know, myself included, that hunt with both bow and gun, much prefer bowhunting.

Ditto! :D

[davidshane]

TrailFndr,

With all do respect, it does'nt take a college education to be able to make a good judgement call. Like must guys that have spoke up on this topic, I spend lots of time in the woods. To ignore the opinion of thousands of guys who passion in life is the outdoors would be a mistake.

And for all this talk that only gun hunters are real hunters, I can't believe that someone is really that - nevermind.

[Luv2hunteup]

Hey Fella's

This is only a what if, there's no need to get upset with anyones opinion or question his reason or even if his parents were related prior to getting married. :eek:

Bash the NRC if you want but not other members.

Opening day of rifle season will never change so don't even worry about it. :o

[Pinefarm]

Most state game biologists AGREE that gun seasons should be later in or after the rut, like very late November or early December. That's why nearly all the mid-west states have a later gun season than us. North American Whitetail recently had a cover piece on this very subject. When the biologists got to talking about Michigan's early gun season, so early in the rut, the article said "God help the bucks of Michigan". Michigan is stuck with Nov. 15 because too many people don't understand how much it damages our overall deer hunting and see no harm in tradition. If they knew that the Nov. 15 opener contributes to why Michigan doesn't match up to our neighboring states, despite often better habitat, there'd be the outcry that is actually needed. The 3rd or last Saturday in November should be the opener. IMHO

[holzy]

Bob,

Your points are right on the money. It's too bad that not enough hunters educate themselves as far as issues like this are concerned. I'll probably get a tounge lashing from some guys but the guys that I know around here are very set in the "traditional" Michigan hunting ways and to them, the opener should always be Nov. 15 for them........heck, make it the whole month of November.

I wish that we would get a clue and take note of states like Ohio, Illinois, Iowa and some others as well. Many states have a one buck limit for the ENTIRE YEAR and a short firearm season after the peak of the rut is done as well. Ohio's season isn't until December and it's shotgun only. Look at the bucks that they are shooting there.

[Buddy Lee]

I hunt with both bow and gun. I vote to keep the Nov. 15 opener. The herd can be managed within the framework of the current season. I think you'd see a change for the better if the 2nd buck tag was eliminated, and if you had to tag button bucks as bucks instead of "antlerless". That would make people a lot more selective in what they shoot.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
I think you'd see a change for the better if the 2nd buck tag was eliminated
That was tried years ago in Michigan. We used to be limited to one buck, then it went to two bucks and then to four bucks, then back down to two bucks. In all those scenarios, the buck/doe ratios were unaffected and remained lopsided. What the combo tag has done is reduce party hunting along with people who omit tagging their deer so they could shoot multiple bucks. Besides only 3% of hunters kill two bucks. If the restricted tag was eliminated, then in my opion many people would just shoot any buck and then not tag it so they could shoot another buck. The next buck they see they would also shoot and likely not tag, and so on so forth. I know of many poeple that shot a half dozen bucks (or more) a year back in the 70s and today they tag their deer and abide by the law. Poaching would just increase to the point where the net affect would be even more bucks being shot overall than they would have been if the combo tag were still available. I'd much rather have more restrictive antler restrictions or other measures rather then loose the second buck tag. I liked the idea someone had with having a high price for the unrestrcited buck tag and a lower price for the restricted tag and doe permits. That might work.

[mecheadSR]

1 buck tag with 2 doe tags, it is the only way to regain a balanced herd, also coincide with micro-management in certain areas to hand out more doe permits. On another note have the first 2 weeks of October be a doe only season, this way more bow hunters will have to get involved in managing the herd and filling the freezer because let's face it, bow hunting time is late october early november as bucks become more active and we are looking for antlers.

[7MM Magnum]

I personally feel that the dates for the seasons are fine! :D

Now however, if the real reason for all of this discussion is to help out the bucks in the herd why not have drawings on the the bucks to be taken. It would be a much simpler solution to the problem. The DNR could establish a minimum point designation for the tag and have a lotto like they do for Elk, Turkey, Bear, etc.

You get drawn and you get your chance for that buck instead of everyone shooting 2 each year. The selected people get their chance and then they go to the back of the line to establish enough points to qualify for another shot at one.

The DNR should make it so if you get a tag and you get your buck it must be taken to a check in post to be recorded. Follow up postcards could be sent to the people who didn't stop in just to verify they did not make a kill. They could adjust their numbers for bucks taken by the results of the previous year. Good accurate counts would help make the herd a much stronger & healthier one for the following year.

I don't know,... it's just a thought. A new method certainly needs to be put in place though,... our herd as it stands now really sucks!

[davidshane]

7MM

I understand where you are going with a point system for bucks, however, I think it addresses the wrong problem. I don't see this as a discussion on how to increase buck numbers, its more about increasing the age structure of the male portion of our herd.

I know most hunters are educated enough to see the value of having the mature bucks around for the actual breeding. This I think was where the intent was.

I do agree with your final comment, Our heard does suck. The frustrating thing to me is that with slight changes in our seasons, we could correct it. Correct it without shorting anyone season or without pushing hunters into a corner.

I guess its just impossible to get a million hunters to agree on anything.

[GrizzlyBear]

Davidshane,
A lottery for bucks would limit the number of bucks taken and a byproduct of that would be a more balanced age structure in the herd. Less bucks shot=more making it into maturity.

This could also have another significant effect in that those that are not chosen for a buck tag may take to the woods in search of a doe. IMHO, this would also show who is in this for the herd and who is in it for themselves.

-GB

[7MM Magnum]

davidshane,.. I too know where your coming from.

I just want something to be done to get our herd back in line. Buck to doe ratios as well as a strong healthy herd. I'm gonna' be 53 this year,.. and I have been hunting since I was 12 years old.

Over the years I have seen a steady decline in quality of deer along with hardly any sign of good quality mature bucks. Alot of this has to to with the generation before me who's belief in taking a doe was unheard of and taboo in most of the "Older" hunting camps.

You just can't keep taking the bucks and wonder later on what happened to them all ! A plan needs to be imposed to limit the amount of bucks and selectively choose which are the bucks that should be taken. A imposed lottery would achieve both and I feel it would be one of the fastest ways to achieve that goal.

I think that GrizzlyBear understands where I'm coming from with what I'm saying,.... he's got the right idea. We need to start lookin' out for our future with our herds and not just what the present has to offer us for now.

[jimmyboy]

Any of you familiar with Pennsylvania? They're DOING something about it - Other than just giving lip service to their problem. Don't actions speak louder than words? Nothing will happen in MI till we MAKE it happen. All we do is carp about the problem and DO nothing. A gathering at the capital similar to the one the dove hunt proponents had might be in order?

[Luv2hunteup]

A gathering at the capital similar to the one the dove hunt proponents had might be in order?

A Million Deer Hunter March would send a message. :cool:

[Randy Kidd]

I find it interesting that when the subject of the youth hunt has come up in the past, the resounding majority of hunters against it cite "traditional opener on the 15th" as their reason. Now on this topic That tradition means nothing. Me personaly I could care less when the season is, As long as I can continue to hunt. I could care less how many Bucks vs. Doe that I take, Venison is venison to my family and friends. It does not matter to me if a fork or a 14 point does the breeding, As long as the deed is done and the herd remains strong. I know a lot of guys will say that unless there are more big racked 6 year old males running around, the herd is weak and in danger. If that were the case the herd should have vanished years ago. last I read a whitetail buck reaches sexual maturity by his second season, Still a yearling. I trust the biologists who work their whole lives to maintain a sustainable hunting opportunity for whitetail deer in this state. And I read that just as it is written " whitetail deer" not Trophy whitetail deer".

[halfcore]

UP Nov 15-25
LP Nov 25-30

late doe season in all units that need significant doe reduction Dec 15-31

[Bow_Hunter]

Hey halfcore,

why does the UP get 11 days and the LP only 6?

[grizzlyadams73]

i figure six days cuz you trolls will be up here for all 11 days!

[halfcore]

Bowhunter,

regarding your post

"Hey halfcore,

why does the UP get 11 days and the LP only 6?"

I figured that with the lower deer population in the UP and generally tougher hunting that the longer period would give hunters a greater chance to harvest a deer.

And obviously the arguments already posted regarding limiting the season in general would apply to the LP for reasons of there being more deer/more opportunity to harvest one, and to hopefully protect more younger age class bucks.

Most states/provinces do stagger their hunting seasons in different areas based upon management goals and herd size, I imagine it could probably work here too.

Of course if we strike out during this shorter season, we will get a nice long crack at the end of december to put some (antlerless) venison in the freezer.

I would definitely bet that UP business owners would love a setup like that, more people heading there for a 15th opener.

[mich buckmaster]

Man that sounds like a great IDEA!!!!

Let all the TRADITIONAL hunters that HAVE to shoot a doe NO matter what head to the UP and shoot their young bucks and allow the LP have 6 days after everyone has headed North.

If I was a UP hunter I would be very skeptical about this logic.

But for this SW LOWER mich. hunter, I would be more then happy.

I just would feel bad for the guys trying to make Mich. a better hunting state that live in the UP.

[halfcore]

I doubt that many "traditional" hunters who haven't hunted the UP before would actually make a trip up there. We'd have to hedge our bets that not many would, and even if they did probably wouldnt see the 90 does a day (or probably nothing at all) they are accustomed to...and give up.

as a UP and LP property owner, I am up for anything that would make deer hunting a little better, and considering most are opposed to antler restrictions (so far), maybe staggered seasons could help.

[farmlegend]

Originally posted by Randy Kidd
I I trust the biologists who work their whole lives to maintain a sustainable hunting opportunity for whitetail deer in this state.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, RK, but professional biologists actually have relatively little say in the big issues that involve managing the whitetail deer resource in our state.

In fact, last I knew, only one member of the NRC has any real sort of wildlife biology background.

[jme]

What does "traditional" mean? The opener has NOT always been on Nov. 15. Nor has the season always been 16 days. Most of us on this site have been around long enough to have experienced changes in bag limits but not changes in the opener. Some of our dads/grampas remember different opening days. So....not that it matters, but it good to remember that the "traditional" opener on the 15th is not that long of a tradtion.

..just don't tough "my" Oct. 1 bow opener!!!

God bless,
John E.
Ypsi

[Duck Down]

I like Nov 15th keep the same dates, but maybe have a week off before gun season with no hunting, I feel that if Michigan wants a Iowa, Kansas type deer herd with lots of big BUCKS. All hunters need to come together and let the small ones go. AGE= bigger deer, I know some deer will never be more that a 6pt and you want him out of the gene pole, but I have watched a 5pt think he was going to get his lady, and before he knew it Mr 8pt big spread kicked his #@# and the 8pt went home with his new girl friend.... Let them go,,,,,,,Let them grow......

[Shoes]

Leave it as is. Just read the thread. My opinion, I see no argument that justifies a change.

[Lance]

Having lived in a tourist town in the northern LP, I really wonder what negative impact the change suggested would have on those people who make their living catering to the hunters that are in town for the "traditional" firearm season. (Forgive me if this point has already been made but I really didn't want to read all 5 pages of replys). A two week season means two weeks of booked hotel/resort rooms, shorten the season and you cut into the income of the owners, the same goes for the grocery stores/restaurants etc. And no I don't believe that a 15 room resort can hold twice as many people for a one week season, and with the economy already tanking charging twice as much for a one week stay would be all that wise either. Or are those people in favor of moving/shortening the season in favor of making hunting a rich man's game?
Or perhaps are they people who already live in prime hunting areas and they are just looking for ways to cut competition for bucks?

[jimmyboy]

Cow TB country business has learned to deal with that problem annd so will others. Solutions often require sacrifice.

[davidshane]

Griz,

Sorry for the late reply, I was away on business.

Your logic is correct; however I think that a better solution can be found in antler restrictions.

Reasons:

1) A lottery means that some hunters would not have the opprotunity to take a buck if they saw one (even a mature 10 pte). I believe some hunters would therefor decide not to hunt if they did not draw. Though less hunters in my area would be great, it would have a negative impact finacially for the state.

2) The reason for pointe systems for bear and elk are simple, we do not have enough of these animal for all to hunt.

3) Turkey pointes are used only to spread out the times hunter chase their game. Not to limit the ammount of hunters.

4) We have plenty of deer in MI, we have enough bucks for the number of hunter (though I would say we're on the low end of what is exceptable). The problem is one of age structure, not quanity. Antler restrictions allows everyone to presue their dream of the monster, does not have a negitive impact on license sales, and does promot a more nature balance in male age structure.

My .02


7MM,

Me too my friend. I would like nothing more than to see our herd back in line. Unfortunately its like most big issues. Leave it up to a democratic large population and you will never get everyone to agree on the best method. Leave it up to an elected group and politics become the road block.

I hunt my butt off every year. Hunting is not what I do, it's who I am. I dream of hunting in a place where I can hunt a nature situation, not what we have created here. I can't see a fix in the near future. I hate to sound this negative but this thread show how far apart we all are. And everyone knows that our NRC/DNR/state government will not make the right decissions.

I was ready an opinion poll on huntig behind raised fences and most people were against it. Though I've never done it, I can see the appeal of hunting a healty heard without 100 guys within a square mile of me.

[wildcoy73]

you all need to get real. most the states you are talking about are south of us and have milder temps that includes ohio the rut is latter in the season. so they put the season latter. you can do all you want with the season but it will not happen plus blamming the bow hunter is not the answer. we first must see our deer and we as a group are more selective on what we will take. it is the idiot with a gun that sees brown and shots. why do u think cows get mistaken for a deer by gun hunters but not by bow hunters. the only way to get the deer heard where we want it is to get rid of the dnr and all the stupid changes they have made. unlimited doe permits is a joke! lets go back to the old way where you had to apply for a doe permit. or wait lets apply for a hunting license and let the game managers decide if you get to hunt for a doe or a buck. but let the youth under 16 have an open sex tag.
camo and my bow is pure peace in the world

[mecheadSR]

First, make the untraditional youth hunt a doe's only hunt, then move the gun season opener back to the 20th into the first week of december and then open the rest of the year for muzzleload hunting. My simple logic for this is the youth hunt can serve as a tool for thinning out the doe herd early in the year. 2nd, Let the big bucks get the best breeding in but do not limit gun season to one week as this could anger some traditionalists who are very important to michigan hunting. 3rd, Open muzzleload hunting for the rest of the year to take some of the sting out of moving the gun season. This is only my opinions.

[davidshane]

Hey bud,

You have to learn to say what you think. You have to stop sugar coating everything. LOL!

[nash]

This will russel(sp) some feathers but I would be for shortening all deer seasons and not having a season during the rut. As for shooting more does in most places I hunt if you were to shoot more does you would see no deer at all!! Southern Mich. still has a deer problem but most of the nothern lower and the up don't. my two cents anyway