Have we cut the state budget enough?

[4pwr]

It seems everyone in state politics and the various state departments are saying the budget is cut to the bone. Is this true? I have no knowledge or proof that it is not. I do have a nagging feeling it is not true and more could be cut. I still think there is a lot of turf protecting going on. Does anyone have any inside scoop on this?

[Dick Graves]

4pwr: It is a given, NO WAY, have you read anything in the "controlled media" about STATE of Michigan layoff's. They have more fat then a black cast iron skillet full of "bacon" grease.


U G L Y:mad:

[Eastern Yooper]

I work for the state, and can tell you there is LOTS of pork fat that could be cut.

I've given examples in numerous other threads, so I won't repeat myself here.

But let me say this: Granholm is a liar, and is duping the people of the state of Michigan.

Every time I read post where someone says, "Can't blame her, she's just fixing the mess Engler left behind" it causes me to cringe and makes me disgusted beyond explanation.

Granholm is taking care of her own, while telling the public "We must all do our part" like we're all a bunch of little Romper Room kids.

Slowly but surely, tho, people are seeing through the myriad of her BS.

[fishlkmich]

I work for the state, too and couldn't disagree with you more! Please, lets have some facts, instead of just calling Granholm a liar. I could say that Engler was just a fat pig, but that doesn't hold much water.

Is YOUR job "pork"? I know that mine isn't, so where is this "pork"? We would all be interested in finding it!

Fact:
Engler left the Governor's office with a $1.8 BILLION deficit. He drained the rainey day fund and other one time pots to cover himself before he left. Source AFL-CIO press release:
http://www.miaflcio.org/Press_Releases/BudgetNewsletterArticle.htm

Fact:
Michigan's Constitution requires a balanced budget.

Fact:
Granholm and the Republican lead House and Senate balanced the 2003/2004 budget.

Fact:
They will do it again for the 2004/2005 budget. (Our fiscal year begins in October)

Fact:
Engler ended up with a cushy job at none other than EDS. Guess who the state bought every computer from while he was in office! AND there was NO bid required from competitors.

So, when you get done "cringing in disgust" could you please put together some facts and figures for us to look at, instead of pointing fingers and name calling? I would be interested in seeing proof of your "pork" in Michigan government and some facts to back up your strong allegations.

Dick,

You may feel free to add some of your own facts to back up the tons of "fat" that you know so much about. We can't close any more state mental institutions and throw mentally ill folks in jail. Engler already did that. Where would you suggest that we get the money we need to balance the 2004/2005 budget?

Mark

[Swamp Monster]

Originally posted by fishlkmich
1Is YOUR job "pork"? I know that mine isn't, so where is this "pork"? We would all be interested in finding it!


Nobody thinks their job is "pork" but that fact is that they all are to some degree. The state would not stop functioning tomorrow if many of these jobs were eliminated or scaled back....same with those of us in the private sector. Thinking that your job and the job you do is just too important to be cut is a dangerous way to think. Things may not run as smoothly (they don't for the most part anyway) and things may work differently, but they will be managed either way.

This isn't a pot shot at any state workers so don't take offense, I'm not picking on you three directly either, I just feel that there will always be wasted money at the government level.

And a balanced budget means nothing.....push that pork around however you like and stuff it in any corner you can to even the books but it's still pork and we're still throwing money to feed it.

[fishlkmich]

I'd LOVE to see a balanced budget clause in the U.S. Constitution. I think that a balanced budget is just as important to government as it is to an individual, or family. Just as you and I cannot spend as much money as we would like to without some serious problems coming from it, government cannot spend more than it takes in without serious problems. The fact that the U.S. government is not responsible for keeping spending in line with revenue is what is putting our Social Security program in jeopardy. With a balanced budget clause that also protected federal programs we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Buddy Lee]

One man's pork is another man's necessity...some of the same folks on this board who call for Granholm to cut the budget would probably raise holy hell if the state were to slash the DNR budget further than it already has...Where do you cut? Prisons? State Police? More cuts will equal job loss, are you prepared for that?

By the way, the budget doesn't get passed without consent of the REPUBLICAN controlled House and Senate, so whining about Granholm and those darn Democrats really doesn't make any sense.

[Swamp Monster]

One other Point. The budget is balanced on paper only. What happens if there is a huge disaster of some sort in Detroit? Fire, Rescue, and police budgets are out the window. The state pays whatever it has to to fix it and what the state can't pay the feds do. How much money is budgeted for such a thing...or better yet how much money should be budgeted for such a thing. Nobody has an answer because we have know idea the cost of such an event. It's all an estimate...paper estimate. I sure wouldn't hold my breath holding out gov't to this balanced budget.

[ytlabs]

You bet your butt I would make cuts in prisons.

Lets see I can give you the ways too, and the reasons. First the reasons. I would cut prisons funding for the fact that the people there are in there of thier own doing.

I did not pour that beer down the guys throat and make him drive and kill someone. I did not put the firearm or knife or ball bat or other weapon in their hands that killed the people they killed. I did not sell or give the idiot the drugs they had in their system or possesion that got them in trouble. I hope none of you reading this did either.

So why do these people get what so many who do not commit crimes do not. Oh I know its said they need this to reform them. the programs are there because we are a humane society, the programs are there to give them incentives to behave while incarcerated.

I say Oh poor baby's they did the crimes let them rot or die or get their time done and get out. ( Oh and before some ask I have had family in prison and such too bad for them! I still say this anyhow.)

I cut out Cable, weight rooms, Collage education, Medical and Dental. I cut the heat to 55 degrees in the winter and turn off the AC in the summer. All Water in the prison is Cold no hot water.

OH now I know there may be someone who needs medical attention. Well I guess it better not be life threatening or too bad the inmate dies. Oh no what about dental. Well they will live with the pain until they are released or they will get it taken care of in their own way. Television is non existant they can sit and stew in their own sweat in the cells in the summer and shiver in the winter.

Well you all get the point. You want a deternt for not breaking the laws make Prison HELL then you will see the prison populations go down.

Oh and I say when the person is withing two years of release then we can give them the stuff they get now currently to try to get them prepared for a role in society, including job training.

See I am not a total cold hearted bastard.

:D

[Eastern Yooper]

I said I wasn't gonna repeat myself....

.....but here goes:

FACT #1 Visions & Values training cost the state $5 million alone just for the Dept of Corrections. Gee, I wonder how much it cost for the other 37,000+ state workers in various depatments? $10 million would be a conservative figure. Please note that the company owned by the "first gentleman" developed, sold, and implemented this program to the state. Hmmmmmmm..........

FACT #2) There is a gymnasium being constructed, along with a complete kitchen renovation being done at the prison I work at. This work was started in November AFTER Jenny approved the 2004 budget. Cost to the public: Over $2 million... and I've no doubt there are numerous other examples of unnecessesary new construction being done around the state.

FACT #3) New state police school being started this year. The cost of the school alone: $5 million; again, this is just for the 16 week academy.

FACT #4) Dept of Corrections last year hired nearly 200 new officers, and is hiring several hundred new officers this year, costing millions of dollars.

FACT #5) Jenny gave $125k to Central Michigan University to conduct a study as to why deer cross the road. This qualifies as a stupid waste of taxpayer funds at any time, let alone during a budget crisis.

FACT #6) 10 prisons could close, saving the state well over $300 million dollars. Release the non-violent such as: shoplifters, bad check writers, drunk drivers, petty thieves, and small-time drug users.

FACT #7) Jenny's new "how to raise a child" packet is being given to all new parents. Factor in what this cost the state to study, research, develop, implement, and distribute... and we're into million$.

FACT #8) While state employees took pay cuts, furlough days, reduced benefits, and made numerous concessions in order to balance the budget... Her Highness and the rest of the politicians gave nothing and made no sacrifices. Zero. Zip. Nada. The infamous 38% pay raise they gave themselves a few years ago now costs the state taxpayers over $5 million each year. Good leaders lead by example. Jenny, on the other hand, leads by the motto of "Do as I say, not as I do."

FACT #9) Selling the Governor's mansion on Mackinac Island would net close to $2 million. Refer to FACT #8 and Jenny's motto.

So there you go, fishlkmich. FACTS.

And are you saying that there is absolutely no waste going on in the department you work for? No cuts you could suggest, or jobs that could be eliminated? You don't think state government could be downsized any further?

[Kevin]

Here is an organization looks into government waste. You can probably search their sites for specific instances of waste in Michigan.
CAGW (http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=HomePage)

[fishlkmich]

FACT #1 Visions & Values training cost the state $5 million alone just for the Dept of Corrections. Gee, I wonder how much it cost for the other 37,000+ state workers in various depatments? $10 million would be a conservative figure. Please note that the company owned by the "first gentleman" developed, sold, and implemented this program to the state. Hmmmmmmm..........

Can you provide reference for this? I can’t find anything close to your numbers.

FACT #2) There is a gymnasium being constructed, along with a complete kitchen renovation being done at the prison I work at. This work was started in November AFTER Jenny approved the 2004 budget. Cost to the public: Over $2 million... and I've no doubt there are numerous other examples of unnecessesary new construction being done around the state.

I’m sure that many state buildings require routine maintenance. When was the money appropriated for the two projects that you mention? The money could have been appropriated under the Engler administration. Some of these projects take years to get started. Other examples are welcome.

FACT #3) New state police school being started this year. The cost of the school alone: $5 million; again, this is just for the 16 week academy.

They are hiring and training 100 new State Police troopers. Part of the process is to cull 100 from 1,600 applicants. No new school is being built. That’s just what it costs to train the officers. Four years has passed since we hired officers. That’s $50,000 per officer to be trained. Would you rather we just stick ‘em in a patrol car and let ‘em loose?

FACT #4) Dept of Corrections last year hired nearly 200 new officers, and is hiring several hundred new officers this year, costing millions of dollars.

The United States has the highest number of prisoners of any nation. That’s in total number and per capita ratio. If we continue to jail people for victimless crimes we will need people to watch them. I am all for reform of our penal system, but not at the expense of the safety of those running our prisons.

FACT #5) Jenny gave $125k to Central Michigan University to conduct a study as to why deer cross the road. This qualifies as a stupid waste of taxpayer funds at any time, let alone during a budget crisis.

She will make that much money in a day of the new cigarette tax. $125K is not as much as my house cost. Just how many drivers are injured, or killed, by deer/car accidents?

FACT #6) 10 prisons could close, saving the state well over $300 million dollars. Release the non-violent such as: shoplifters, bad check writers, drunk drivers, petty thieves, and small-time drug users.

I agree. See #4.

FACT #7) Jenny's new "how to raise a child" packet is being given to all new parents. Factor in what this cost the state to study, research, develop, implement, and distribute... and we're into million$.

Can’t find anything on this. A “packet” shouldn’t cost “millions” to produce and considering that Michigan ranks 30th in the nation in parenting skills, it may well be worth it!

FACT #8) While state employees took pay cuts, furlough days, reduced benefits, and made numerous concessions in order to balance the budget... Her Highness and the rest of the politicians gave nothing and made no sacrifices. Zero. Zip. Nada. The infamous 38% pay raise they gave themselves a few years ago now costs the state taxpayers over $5 million each year. Good leaders lead by example. Jenny, on the other hand, leads by the motto of "Do as I say, not as I do."

The Republican lead House created this Bill and worded it so that the Republican lead Senate didn’t even have to vote on it for it to pass. It only raised the Legislative branch salaries, not the Executive branch salary. “Her Highness” is making what Engler did. He should have taken a pay cut instead of raiding the Rainey Day fund.

FACT #9) Selling the Governor's mansion on Mackinac Island would net close to $2 million. Refer to FACT #8 and Jenny's motto.

He should have sold that, too.

So there you go, fishlkmich. FACTS.

And are you saying that there is absolutely no waste going on in the department you work for? No cuts you could suggest, or jobs that could be eliminated? You don't think state government could be downsized any further?

We have lost four employees from my department to budget cuts and we have taken on responsibility for more work from other departments. If this 500 user network goes down and you want a fast answer, too bad! We have viruses, worms, upgrades, maintenance, user to keyboard interface problems, training, equipment moves… So, NO! The quality of service that we can offer to the public has already gone down. If the public doesn’t mind waiting days, or weeks, for results from state government, then SURE! I’ll take my 20+ years of computer hardware/software/networking skills back to the private sector where I can get a decent paycheck. It’s going on four years without a raise here and the pay wasn’t that great to start with. Maybe the public should cry out for more cuts to our benefits to save money. Before you know it the state will be full of high school graduates, working for minimum wage, with basic benefits and maybe then the public will appreciate what they have come to expect and lost.

Mark

[Eastern Yooper]

re: FACT #1) There are 18,000 employees within the Dept of Corrections. Nearly 10,000 of those are officers. Jenny mandated this training be started in October and completed by Jan 1st. Factoring in weekends & holidays, this meant 60 working days to train those 18,000+ employees. That equates to 300/day. Many employees were mandated to attend on their days off, thus incurring overtime. Others attended from schedule changes at work, but their abscence at the facility meant more overtime to fill the resulting vacancy. Total bill: $5 million, mostly overtime, so Jenny could hold up her hand, smile, and say, "This is Michigan." I might add that in my 11 years with the state, this was by far and away the worst training I have ever attended.

re: FACT #2) I thought we were in a budget crisis? A brand new gym, and a kitchen overhaul for convicts isn't what I call necessary. An executive order issued by Granholm could have halted projects like this, and saved the state million$.

Instead, my son's school is being closed due to reduced state funding for our district in 2005. Convicts get a new gym, my son's school gets closed, and you are giving me a political spin-job on budget approprations.

Nice.

re: Fact #3) Please point-out where I said to simply throw new troopers in patrol cars and turn 'em loose. I guess I should have clarified that in this time of budgetary crisis, we could do without hiring new recruits. Yes we need a state police crime lab, yes we need the detective services, and the emergency response team. But up here and in the northern lower, MSP is a glorifed road patrol..... and a very expensive one, I might add.

re: FACT #5) Oh I see, lets raise taxes to cover things. Like staying the income tax rollback that was part of Proposal A that voters passed. Once again we get screwed. How many drivers get killed by deer? Far less than the number of people murdered in Detroit this year, which as of the end of February was over 60. Why isn't Jenny throwing money at things like that?

re: FACT $7) As a state employee, I assume you are well aware that the move to eliminate our paycheck stubs was an attempt to save $1.5 million per year in postage fees.

And yet you doubt that the time and expense in developing, producing, and distributing these new child-rearing packets hasn't cost millions?

Ah yeah, ohhhhhh-kaaaaaayyyyyyyyy.

re: FACT #8) Just proves that the politicians, regardless of party affiliation, are out to line their own pockets.... and they don't give a rip about anyone else.

[jefrat72]

Amos

on the site you posted

http://www.cagw.org

Have you monitored that for awhile now? Wondering how accurate and unbiased they may be. For example, I looked up a few sites on the highway bill (H. R. 3550) which cagw says is getting pumped full of pork and of course on the other sites I looked up they say it is an underfunded bill and needs more money. Not sure who to believe. Anybody?

:confused:

P.S. In reference to the debate on state use of money, I'm a state employee too and that Visions and Values training was a complete waste of time and $$.

[lostmale]

re: Fact #3) Please point-out where I said to simply throw new troopers in patrol cars and turn 'em loose. I guess I should have clarified that in this time of budgetary crisis, we could do without hiring new recruits. Yes we need a state police crime lab, yes we need the detective services, and the emergency response team. But up here and in the northern lower, MSP is a glorifed road patrol..... and a very expensive one, I might add.

Even down here in SE MI you can go by the State Police post just about anytime of the day and see 8 to 10 patrol cars sitting in the lot. I have often thought about marking the tires to see if they ever move. I know there are not that many troopers there. Just how many new State veh are there just sitting around and why are they all new veh.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by jefrat72
Amos

on the site you posted

http://www.cagw.org

Have you monitored that for awhile now? Wondering how accurate and unbiased they may be. For example, I looked up a few sites on the highway bill (H. R. 3550) which cagw says is getting pumped full of pork and of course on the other sites I looked up they say it is an underfunded bill and needs more money. Not sure who to believe. Anybody?

:confused:

I would not say I monitor it; I check it from time to time. I offered it only as a resource, not as an opinion or judgement.
I do not know the specifics of that bill, but here is what the site says about it:
President Bush requested $256 billion in transportation spending in his fiscal 2005 budget, but the House is considering passing a six-year surface transportation bill that would cost as much as $375 billion and include an increase in the federal gas tax! Please click here to tell your U.S. Representative today to display fiscal responsibility and stick to the President’s original $256 billion proposal.
I have never heard of a politician say that something was "overfunded" ;) I would be interested in reading your other sources if you could link them though.
I am unaware of any bias from that organization, if you mean political party bias. - Perhaps biased on the side of reducing or at least slowing government spending and waste.
FWIW

[fishlkmich]

Since I wasn't one of the masses who was invited to this Visions and Values "training" and I don't have any references to check into, I can't comment.

Revenue sharing cuts were one of the big hits. Schools will close and the kids will go to another school. I asked you a question. I didn't give you a "spin job". IF the appropriations WERE made under the Engler administration AND bids had been accepted there may have been no chance to stop the construction. Easy!

I didn't say don't train cops. You were the one complaining about it! If you have too many State Troopers in the U.P. send them to Detroit, where they could help out with #5.

I've always had my pay stub handed to me, so I guess that I've been helping out all along. There are pamphlets, on top of pamphlets, on top of pamphlets in EVERY state agency. We could do away with them all together as far as I'm concerned. Just put everything online and if you can't afford a computer go to the library. If you don't know how to look something up on the Internet pay for a class. No more hunting, or fishing, or fish health advisory pamphlets! No aquatic nuisance pamphlets. No safe boating pamphlets! Screw the poor and stupid!