Shotgun scopes

[Markfaz]

I am going to be looking at getting a rifled barrel for my Rem 11-87 to deer hunt next season with. In addition, I am going to put a scope on it and have never used one before. Any suggestions on what types of features I should be looking for as well as things I should avoid?? It seems in just browsing, I have found an incredible range of prices and am trying to figure out what is causing the difference in prices.

[DGF]

I'm no scope expert, but here's what I know:

1) With a shotgun you will probably want a lower powered scope. On my deer shotgun I have a 1.5 to 4.5, and It seems to be set on 4 power. If I would have known I was going to keep it there I would have saved myself a couple bucks and got a single powered scope.

2) Eye relief is important. Be sure the scope you purchase is mounted correctly, and has the right amount of eye releif for the gun you will be shooting. (the guy at my local shop told me this was the difference between many rifle scopes and shotgun scopes)

3) Allot of scopes are nitrogen filled to prevent fogging. In michigan, this will be something to keep an eye on. A fogged up scope can ruin the opportunity of a lifetime.

4) Objective (I think that's what it's called) is what will allow you to see brighter during those early morning or right before dusk shots. The larger the objective (in mm) the greater the light gathering capabilities.

5) You get what you pay for....

*DAN*

[This message has been edited by DGF (edited 12-01-2000).]

[WEEZER]

Yes everything that DGC is very true. You don't have to hurt your checkbook while getting a decent scope. $50-$60 will get you a pretty good one. It is even possible to get them for $20, and they seem to be good.
2.5 By 32mm makes an awesome scope for a shotgun...

[This message has been edited by WEEZER (edited 12-01-2000).]

[jduck]

Since you are new to scopes I wouldn't recomend buying the most expensive glass there is. (Nikon, Leupold) Bushnell makes a nice shotgun scope (Sportsview plus 1.5-4.5 X 32. I personally shoot with a Tasco Accu dot. I like the ability to shoot with both eyes open. Take a trip to a sporting goods store and look at the scopes that they have. Before you buy make sure you test it in low light conditions.

Markfaz: I have a 11-87 i made into a very good slug gun. I have a hastings barrel on it. I had the forcing cones removed from the barrel and i also had the barrel magnaported. This reduces recoil and the removal of the forcing cones allows a bit more of accuracy. I have a very good 3x9 scope on it. I can be fairly accruate with it at 200 yards shooting from a rest. Get a good scope that will not keep changing impact after being shot as there is a LOT of recoil with the slug guns .

[Pat Eddinger]

Markfaz,
There are some marked differences in shotgun scopes from rifle scopes.
Eye relief is longer.usually 4-6" instead of the 2-4 on rifle scopes.
Parallax correction.Shotgun/Black powder scopes typically have zero parallax at 50-75 yds,rifle scopes are set for 150yds or are adjustable.
Look for a shotgun scope with a one piece tube.The cheaper scopes use a 2 piece tube,and the halves are epoxied together,and the turrets are epoxied into the rear half holding the erector tube in place.
Epoxy breaks down with age,chemical exposure(Like Hoppes),light,heat,and recoil.Leaving you with a scope that seems to "Wander around" or at the very least fog.
Look for brilliant optics,and a "Flat" field of view.Look at a door frame and shift the vertical straight edge of the door frame slowly to the outside edge of the field of view.Does it curve slightly?Then do the same with a horizontal surface.If it bends or gets a bit fuzzy,pass it back and find another,one of the lenses or several may be out of alignment.
Objective size has grown lately on the average scope.It's a cheap way to get brightness from less than brilliant optics.However superior optics and alignment will always be brighter than poor optics and a huge objective.Also beware that the large objectives weigh more,and put more strain on mounts under heavy recoil,and to make things worse,big objectives require tall rings which actually provide more of a lever arm for the scope to tear away from the mounts with.Absolutely at all times avoid see throughs and overly tall mounts.
Mounting as low as possible on a shotgun is critical because of point of convergence issues at short ranges.With tall mounts the line of sight is sometimes 3-4" above line of bore and to converge the two,you may run out of elevation,and if you zero at say 50yds,the angle of upward travel of the slug continues and may move your impact out of the vital area between 50 and say 75 yds untill it drops back around 125 or so.
I hear every year how a guy zeroed at 30yds with see through mounts keeps shooting over deer at 50yds.This year I had two.
My suggestions for shotgun scopes always starts with Leupold.They work,will withstand all sorts of vile abuse,have brilliant optics,and are relatively light.But they dent the wallet for around $250.00 however they have a lifetime warranty so you'll never have to buy another.
Next is Burris,but again they are priced like the Leupold.
For mid range value the Upper end Bushnell aint bad.
Simmons makes a 4X fixed pro diamond that seems to hold up,but has a smaller field of view than I like.
Whatever you choose there is a way to find out if ya got a bum scope or not before mounting,and saves the cussing in the woods.
Fill up the sink with Warm water and toss the new scope in.Leave it for 5-6 hours,and then toss it in the freezer.the next morning pull it out.If it fogs up on the INSIDE send it back.If not it should be OK.Remember most warrantys are only good for several months or so,so wring it out good on the range in that time period.Good luck to ya however you choose!Cheers!Pat

[StrutnSpur]

Mark, I have to agree with everything Pat says. If you get good optics you will not need the large objective to see later,it is just a cheap way of gettting enough light in the scope to make up for bad opticical glass and coatings. I use a Pentax 2.5x Lite-Seeker Plus Shot Gun scope and find it to be a great scope that is made just for shotguns.
It has the right power 2.5x, 1 piece tube, low profile, right eye relief, great glass and coatings, great reticle and it comes in different camo coating if that matters to you. The price is about $249.00. If you want good quality in optics you get what you pay for. I use it on my Turkey/Deer shotgun. Before I go turkey hunting I sight it in with the smooth bore barrel and before I deer hunt I sight it in with the rifled barrel.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1166354&a=8580685&p=27846024&Sequence=2&res=high
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1166354&a=8580685&p=34542455&Sequence=0&res=high

[This message has been edited by StrutnSpur (edited 12-02-2000).]

[Mptycreel]

Pat- Would you say the same is true about mounting a scope low (without see through rings) on a black powder too? I've been thinking about an inline that has the fiber-optic sights and would hate to have them become pointless. I don't know if the velocity diferences between a slug and a blackpowder rifle would change things.

[StrutnSpur]

Pat ,I also have a question for you on convergence.
If I zero my scope in at 75 yards doesn't the slug trajectory cross the line of sight back at about 20 yards and then rises and falls to zero at 75 yards or does the slug continue its rise from the muzzle to hit zero at 75 yards and continue that trajectory until it falls within the line of sight again further downrange?
I always thought that the slug will cross the line of sight about 20 to 25 yards out from the muzzle...SnS

[Pat Eddinger]

Guy's,
Point of convergence (or Line of departure) varies with the height of line of sight above line of bore,and where things are adjusted.The closer to the line of bore possible and still clear the barrel and be comfy to shoot,will allow a zero with the erector tube closer to center in the outer tube and lenses,making things clearer,and allowing for greater adjustment range.
As far as a LOD at 20yds coinciding again at another distance depends upon too many variables to predict without hard numbers on ballistic coefficient,mass,velocity,height above bore of line of sight,and then a bit of voodoo because of atmospheric variables.
If you look at factory ammo "Drop tables" they almost always genericly use 1.5" for a LOS above bore measurement.This allows for a longer Point blank range and still be close to the average bambi blaster carried by us folks.When the height gets out of hand the shooter will have to do his own drop table and figure,use a good ballistics program like Sierra's,or learn to dial dope on a target knob which is the most accurate anyway.
On Muzzle loaders with the cool Williams firesights,I try to push the Leupold QRW rings and weaver bases.The QRW rings run around 50 bucks,but allow for quick removal of the scope and then remounting with using fingers only,and no loss of zero.It not only allows the use of irons and a low mounted scope,it's really handy to remove the scope for cleaning the black powder gorp out of the action and underside of the scope.
Hope this helps!Cheers!Pat

[Pat Eddinger]

Strut and spur,
Generally when I Bore sight a customers rifle or shotgun,I have them adjust to 1-1.5" below point of aim at 25yds,and then move to 100yds and it should be on paper.This has worked out well for me and my particular columator,except when I have to use an extension arbor for see-thru's or x-tra high rings like on the Mossberg 595 slug guns.So Your theory on 20-25 and then again at 100 is rough,but close,at least from what I have seen so far with normal low mounted optics.Cheers!Pat

[Markfaz]

thanks everyone!!

with everything that has been said, I now have more homework than before!! :o dang...I didn't realize there was so much to a scope.

thanks again for all the suggestions. good thing I have a couple of months to figure this all out! :)

[This message has been edited by Markfaz (edited 12-04-2000).]

[Skibum]

Listen to Pat and go with the Leupold. When you spread the cost over the rest of your deer hunting life what is it worth to you to have a sight that won't fail? He is also correct about mounting the scope as low as possible. Not only is there the issue of convergence but more importantly a low mounted scope will allow for quicker alignment when the buck of a lifetime pops up. I have found that high mounting systems that allow both iron sights and scope to be used are a bad compromise of both. The suggestion of QD mounts is a better one if you feel you will ever really need the irons.

Skibum

[Markfaz]

ok...now that I have all this info, I have another question. What are everyone's thoughts on mounting systems, rings, etc. It sounds like this is as diverse as actually buying the scope.

[Pat Eddinger]

Markfaz,
It's really not too bad of a problem.
Stay away from anything oriental.
For the life of me I don't understand folks that will spend $700.00 on a rifle,$2-300 bucks on a scope and then plop cast aluminum rings on it that have two different centerlines,and when tightened to 30inlbs they strip!YECH!
Best bet on the 11-87 Cantilever bbl. in my opinion would be the Burris signature Weaver style(Cross slot)rings and grab an insert kit as well.The signatures use a synthetic live center,and the inserts are available in +5,+10,and +20 thou increments.Center the erector tube with windage and Elevation adj.on the scope(Leupolds come centered).
Slap the scope on and take a gander on the collimator.If it's not dead center,grab an insert and correct it.No shimming,no bending the scope tube,no marring the scope tube,and they grab onto a scope sooooo much better than plain 'ol steel.Next would be Millets,but be sure to find center before tightening them down or you could damage your tube.2 4"Pcs of 1" dia cold roll faced square works well for this.When the faces mate,tighten 'em down.If easy on and off is a priority,again look to the Leupold QRW's.
Weaver has a new ring out called the "grand slam" that's all steel and features finger knobs,so it's similar to the QRW.I havn't tried them yet,but unless they tightened up tolerences from the Std. line I wont use them.Good luck to ya!Pat