Do Wild Cougars Live In Michigan?

[Trophy Specialist]

There has been a lot of press both ways in recent month, so what do you think; Do wild cougars live in Michigan?

I've seen two cougars in my life, both in Nevada when I lived there. I have also saw plenty of cougar sign during my stint in AZ and NV back in the early 80s. I have never seen a cougar in Michigan, nor have I seen any sign yet. I have heard plenty of eye-whiteness accounts though, from credible people, who have seen them. In fact, I read that there have been 10,000 reported cougar sightings in Michigan, many by COs, police and other officials. Still the DNR denies that wild cougars exist in Michigan. Who do you trust, 10,000 eyewitnesses, or the DNR spin-masters? Mind you, this is the same DNR that said just a few years ago that wolves didn't exist in Michigan either.

[NATTY BUMPO]

TS,

Last Sunday, I went on a snoeshoe hike led by a Ranger at the Sleeping Bear Dunes NP near Empire. There have been several recent sightings of a cougar in the park. One followed a Park volunteer quite closely for 200 yards this fall. Several deer hunters reported seeing a cougar during the rifle season in the Park. As I live near there, I spoke with Ranger Vern at length on the recent publicity. They collected scat and sent it off to a lab for DNA testing. The results: definately cougar, and North American identity. This is important b/c most pet shop big cats origin is South America. The NPS has a handout for all visitors: You are a Visitor in Cougar Habitat, which is posted at several traiheads. The NPS at Sleeping Bear is a creditable authority in my book. They believe it and so do I.

Natty B.
PS The NPS opined that the cat crossed over the Streights last winter when it was frozen over.

[boehr]

Questions;

What CO's have said there are wild (emphasis on wild) cougars? Please identify what officials. Names will be fine which you must know since you are using them as a referance.

Define what a few years ago means to you as I'm sure you want to be specific and not put no spin on things, especially in regards to your wolf statement.

Please identify where, what publication or magzine, you read that there were 10,000 reports, agin I'm sure you don't want no spin on things.

I trust the more than 3/4 of a million deer hunters and trappers who manage every year to make it through another deer season and trapping season leaving the cougar unscathed.

[Linda G.]

I know a lot of those folks over in Sleeping Bear too...the same folks who dressed up a volunteer in full, formal National Park Service uniform, the same as a regular NPS park employee or ranger, to appear in front of a newspaper camera.

Perhaps they've changed their policy on what volunteers normally wear since I last talked to that same volunteer, who leads tours, hikes and things of that nature, last year.

The same folks who suggested implementation of a "Wilderness Management" plan for an area that hasn't been wilderness for almost two hundred years, which would have meant removing many of the species in the park, including all the coho, steelhead and brown trout in the Platte River, and removing all of the deer from North Manitou Island. The same folks with the same plan that would have closed all kinds of roads into the area that the former landowners GAVE TO THE PARK SERVICE with the express intent that the area be kept OPEN for the public's enjoyment and recreation...

This is the same National Park Service that has begun a "non-native" species removal from most of it's western properties, and if you read how some of that removal is taking place, and what species are being removed, it would raise the hair on the back of your neck...

The same National Park Service that would be THRILLED if they never saw another tourist, backpacker, kayaker, or naturalist on Isle Royale again, and suggested implementing a similar wilderness plan up there that would have effectively shut off most of Isle Royale to the public.



Would claiming the presence of cougars in Sleeping Bear Dunes help further the wilderness agenda plan suggested there?? The thought that one of our branches of federal government might even remotely consider such an agenda scares me half to death, but I haven't seen anything yet to prove me wrong-like a cougar, alive or dead, tame or wild.

I am not saying that I don't believe it MIGHT be possible for a wild cougar to exist in some of the more remote portions of the UP, like Ontonagon or Gogebic County, and occasionally venture out into areas along the Lake Michigan shoreline-cougars do have fairly large territories and do roam quite a bit, I'm told...but wild cougars in Sleeping Bear, or for that matter, ANYWHERE in the lower?? That's a real stretch.

They thought wolves walked across the ice, too, back in 98...the only thing anyone's ever found down here were released wolf/dogs.

[Hamilton Reef]

I agree with Linda on all points. Last Saturday, January 24, there was a cougar article in the Muskegon Chronicle. That article by Dave Lemieux did not show up for me to pass on to forums.

[NATTY BUMPO]

Hey Guys,

My previous post was a "first hand" account of what I saw and heard up at SBDNL last Sunday afternoon. The occasion was a Ranger-led snowshoe hike. About 40 folks braved a bitter winter day. Nobody was drunk or high either.

Linda G:
1. Are you calling Ranger Vern a liar?

2. Are you calling the Park volunteer "E" who was followed for several hundred yards by a big cat at distances measured "in feet" a liar? She was there.

3. Are the two deer hunters who saw a big cat dragging a deer kill during rifle season liars too?

4. What about the DNA analysis of the scat samples? More lies?

5. Is EVERYBODY up at SBDNL making this up? For what purpose?

I was there - you were not. Conspiracies anybody? BTW, the cougar is a a state-listed endangered species.

Natty B.

[Linda G.]

Natty-take a look at the DNR's endangered species list-it's on-line. There's hundreds of species of plants and animals on that list, and all that means is that they existed here at one time, and MAY still be present in some areas of the state-that does NOT mean they're here now for sure. Talk to Mike Piscar of the Natural Features Inventory, he'll explain all of that to you. He's in Lansing.

I'm not saying anyone's lying, I'm saying that these people have been trained to accept the policies and long range plans and goals of the National Park Service-and they do. They believe in that, fervently, just as some people in this state believe, fervently, in a number of things that you and I would doubt.

Just as any employee is trained to believe in and carry out their employer's company mission.

That's their right as an American, but don't shove it down everyone else's throat. That's when it's a threat to us all.

Ever seen a yellow or chocolate Labrador Retriever or other large breed of short-haired dog with a long tail standing 150 yards away in the rain, snow, fog, or dark?

I live up here, too, Natty, and I've talked to a LOT of people with so-called creditable sightings...every single one of those sightings either proved to be a bobcat or a dog, or sometimes even a bear...or just mysteriously went away...tracks have proven to be something else...scat could have come from the zoo...

It makes great fodder for the gossip mills, but isn't creditable science. It also brings a great deal of interest and spotlight to the National Parks.

[Trophy Specialist]

Boehr, I don't know what year or what the CO's names were that reported seeing cougars, but it common knowledge and has been reported in many publications; look it up yourself. It probably was years ago, because if a CO in today's DNR were to report a cougar sighting, he or she would be committing career suicide due to the DNRs official stance on denying that cougars exist in Michigan. The DNR did deny the existence of wolves in the UP for many years, which is also common knowledge and to deny that now is laughable. The "10,000 people" who have reported seeing cougars in Michigan has also been reported to death in several articles, one in Wood N' Water News back in the spring. Again look it up yourself if you want to see the proof. That number is also probably much lower than the actual number of sightings as most people don't want to be ridicule by the DNR, so they keep quiet about cougar sightings. Then you say "I trust the more than 3/4 of a million deer hunters and trappers who manage every year to make it through another deer season and trapping season leaving the cougar unscathed." You seem to be forgetting that it is illegal to shoot or otherwise harm or harass a cougar in Michigan. What would you do if someone came up to you with a dead cougar that they had just killed? I'd bet they'd get arrested. And you wonder why no dead cougars have showed up. It is also illegal to chase cougars with dogs in Michigan and you wonder why no bear hunters have come forward with prove of a treed puma. If they did, then they would be arrested. To anyone who does not believe that there are wild cougars in Michigan and especially the DNR, why are cougars protected in Michigan if they don't exist?

[Linda G.]

Mike, read my first paragraph in the post above yours just now...that's why the cougar is still protected, along with a wide variety of other critters and plants that haven't been seen in more than 100 years in this state. Call Piskar-he'll explain the methodology behind list.

Ok, Mike, so the DNR has some great conspiracy going...well, the hound hunters and trappers of this state don't...and if they caught something like that, they'd at least TAKE A PHOTO OF IT, don't you think??

Cats are easy to catch in a foothold trap. A lot of sets use fresh meat for bait that would lure a cougar, and a trapper in the UP out for bobcat would have caught at least PART of a cougar by now, like a toe, or bits of fur, that could be analyzed. Any trapper will tell you that. Trappers do work and cooperate with the DNR all the time-the proof that we now have at least one lynx in the UP proves that. That man willingly approached the DNR for proof of identity and to help him release the lynx-I highly doubt he was ticketed or arrested for doing that.


And any member of the Michigan Bear Hunters Association will tell you that ALL of their dogs will tree a cougar, and do it very well. A lot of these guys go to Montana and other states every year to do just that.

I know a number of coyote hunters who hunt all over the northern portion of the state and the UP...and these guys not only hunt hard, they hunt often-usually 3-4 times a week. Most of them carry cameras...If they had ever treed a cougar, they would have let us know, believe me...by that, I mean a number of the outdoor writers in this state that have hunted with them at one point or another.

As for bear/coyote/cat hunters afraid of being arrested or ticketed for treeing a cougar, none of the hunters I know are concerned about that, because they know that the DNR is fully aware that you can't always help what your dogs do.

I'll be happy to put you in touch with a number of these guys if you'd like to talk with them, or even do a hunt with them. Let me know.

[boehr]

Natty...how do you know it was a "WILD" cougar, if in fact one was seen?

It is a well know fact that there are a fair number of people that have exotics as pets. In this District we have made arrests for two cougars which were seized and presently are working on another.:eek:

because if a CO in today's DNR were to report a cougar sighting, he or she would be committing career suicide due to the DNRs official stance on denying that cougars exist in Michigan.Pleeeease, give me a break. CO's are not that fragil.

You posted the information that you protrayed as facts, it's up to you to answer the questions to support it. Face it, this is your spin. You can't even answer the questions. I'm done with this thread, nothing but an opinion poll, no factual information at all.:rolleyes:

[NATTY BUMPO]

Linda G:

Thanks for yr reply. I simply was relating what I saw and heard up at SBDNL last Sunday afternoon. The Park volunteer "E" gave a first hand account of her experience of being followed by a big cat, she said it was a cougar. I donno about you but I dont think I'd mistake a cat 7 foot long from his nose to the tip of his tail from a yellow Lab? At close range? In broad daylight?

BTW, we didnt see any cats or see any sign on our hike either!;)

Natty B.

[warthog]

(They thought wolves walked across the ice, too, back in 98...the only thing anyone's ever found down here were released wolf/dogs)

linda,
I dont care if there is cougars here or not but didnt thay find a radio collared wolf from the u.p. down south some were in a nother state.

[Linda G.]

yup, they did, Warthog, in Missouri last year. It walked all the way down there.

But don't confuse the issue of wolves with cougars-there's no comparison.

There's thousands of wolves in the Midwest, most of them in Minnesota and Wisconsin, where the MO wolf came from, so its natural they're going to move around as populations expand.

And there's LOTS of documented evidence about wolves in the Midwest, but only a handful of cougars, if any at all...but I believe there are a few lions in extreme northern Minnesota that have been documented.

[Trophy Specialist]

Linda, as I stated before, chasing a cougar with dogs is illegal in Michigan, even if by accident. If anybody were to present a photo or proof of a treed cat by hounds to the DNR they would likely get arrested. I spend hundreds of hours in reported cougar country every year and have never seen one or even struck a track, but that does not mean that they don't exist. If I did see one, I would not report it anyway because I would not appreciate the ridicule that I'd undoubtedly receive. Fair enough on why cougars are protected in Michigan, but as for trappers not catching any, that is off base. I used to trap in AZ and NV when I lived there and also knew many other trappers in that area, which was full of big cats. We'd see tracks all the time yet I never heard of anybody ever catching a cougar by mistake. If it doesn't happen in western states where cougars are common, then it would be extremely unlikely for a trapper to catch a cougar in Michigan. Besides, if a cougar were to be caught in a trap in Michigan, with the widespread distrust of the DNR these days along with a bumper crop of poachers, how many trappers would report such an incidental catch to the authorities anyway? How many trappers would just dispose of the cat or keep it for themselves rather than risk reporting it? I choose to keep an open mind on the Michigan cougar issue.

[Hamilton Reef]

This article, News Pub. Date: 1/24/2004, did not show up on the Muskegon Chronicle web site, so Dave emailed this to me this morning.

Cat in the shadows - Cougar sightings raise interest, but not e

Keywords LOCAL-News, with photos

Subhead: Cougar sightings raise interest, but not enough for a state study

By Dave LeMieux, Chronicle Staff Writer

A 5-inch wide paw print in the wet ground of a P.J. Hoffmaster State Park campsite stamped an exclamation mark on reports of cougar sightings at the park.
There have been other cougar sightings reported by hikers during the past two years, said Elizabeth Brockwell-Tillman, the park's Michigan Department of Natural Resources naturalist. But she remained skeptical that cougars, once considered extinct in Michigan, were prowling around Hoffmaster.

Sightings by excited hikers couldn't be confirmed without unmistakable physical evidence to back them up, such as a good set of tracks or a clear photograph.

That changed in October 2002, when a cougar startled a camper by nonchalantly trotting through his Hoffmaster campsite.

The animal left a set of fresh, clear tracks on the wet ground.

The camper's description left little doubt he'd seen a cougar. "The young man described it to a tee," Brockwell-Tillman said.

"He was pretty shook up."

A fully-grown cougar is about 9 feet long and weighs close to 200 pounds. The tan-colored big cat has black markings on its sides, muzzle, the backs of its ears and on the tip of its tail.

Brockwell-Tillman took a series of photographs of the tracks, which were later identified as those of a cougar by wildlife biologist Patrick Rusz, director of the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy's wildlife programs.

The conservancy has declared 2004 the "year of the cougar," and is asking that cougar sightings be reported to its office in Bath at (517) 641-7677.

The autumn encounter at Hoffmaster is one in a steadily growing number of reported sightings around the state and nation.

The most dramatic took place Sept. 28 at Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore near Empire.

For 20 minutes, a large cougar padded alongside National Park Service volunteer Eleanor Comings as she walked nervously down a Benzie County trail.

Until it melted back into the woods, the big cat never strayed more than 5 feet from the astonished Comings.

Experts say cougar attacks on people are rare, even in states like California, where there are large populations of the animal.

A recent fatal attack in California was only the 13th in the past 114 years. However, according to a Reuters news service report, fatal cougar attacks have been increasing since 1970, with eight reported in California and Washington in the last decade.


A state predator

Called cougars in Michigan, the big cats are known by a variety of other names elsewhere, including mountain lion, puma, panther and catamount.

They are powerful, silent predators. Their preferred method for killing large prey, such as deer, is by leaping on the animal's back and breaking its neck with a powerful bite to the base of its skull.

Comings' encounter prompted the National Park Service to post signs at Sleeping Bear Dunes warning visitors about the cougars.

Brockwell-Tillman wonders if the cougar that visited Hoffmaster might have come from Sleeping Bear Dunes.

"Some of the research is showing that cougars could be using the lakeshore corridor for travel," she said.

In November, a Mason County woman reported seeing a cougar on the Lake Michigan beach north of Pentwater near Bass Lake.

A neighbor later photographed what appear to be cougar tracks on the beach in the same vicinity.

Cougar sightings also have been reported in Ottawa County in the past year.

A cougar's range can cover up to 250 square miles, said Rusz, and the cat can travel 30 miles in a day.

The conservancy's research suggests there are remnant cougar populations in the southern Upper Peninsula and northeastern Lower Peninsula.


Fighting for study

In addition to firing the imagination of wildlife enthusiasts, the sightings are fueling a growing controversy.

It is a debate that has turned nasty at times.

Rusz maintains that the state's native cougar population was not hunted to extinction by 1906, as once thought.

He says there is enough evidence to support his contention that a small group of native cougars survived and is still struggling to hold on.

Though none have been killed or captured, cougar sightings have been trickling in for nearly a century, said Rusz.

By 1989, there had been enough sightings for the DNR to change the big cat's status from extinct to endangered.

Rusz said the conservancy has documented more than 700 credible sightings in the last five years alone.

"We're probably dealing with fewer than 80 animals in the whole state," Rusz said. He added that's only an estimate, based as much on informed speculation as on hard evidence.

That's not good enough, says Ray Rustem, supervisor of the DNR's Natural Heritage Unit.

"It seems there are some cougars out there," Rustem said, but that doesn't mean they've been living here all along.

Pet cougars have been released into the wild in the past, said Rustem, mostly in southeastern Michigan. An Illinois man was recently convicted for releasing a pet cougar in a state wildlife area.

Cougars also could have traveled here from outside the state, he said.

If cougars have survived here for almost a century, Rustem said, why hasn't anyone shot one, treed one, caught one or hit one with a car since 1906?

That's the same question that bothers retired U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service fisheries biologist Tom Hamilton.

Since 1987, Hamilton has seen almost every critter imaginable cross his land along the White River.

"I haven't made up my mind," said Hamilton. "But one thing really bothers me. There are 700,000 deer hunters in Michigan every year, and not one has shot a cat.

"I doubt anything could be that reclusive."

More to the point, Rustem said, DNR scientists haven't documented anywhere near the number of cougar sightings as the conservancy. And DNR surveys haven't produced any confirmed cougar tracks.

Rustem doesn't share the conservancy's belief that there is enough hard evidence to justify an expensive large-scale study.

"If we're going to be putting a large amount of time and money into a project, we have to believe there's a reasonable chance of success," he said.


Will they survive?

Whether the state's cougars are native, pets gone wild or new arrivals from out-of-state, they face a very uncertain future.

The growing number of cougar sightings is not evidence that the number of cougars is growing, said Rusz.

Rusz suspects it simply means the state's growing human population is moving into the previously undeveloped land cougars prefer.

Given the state's plentiful supply of the cougar's favorite prey, the white-tailed deer, the cat's population should be much larger, Rusz said.

If there is a small population of native cougars, it is in danger of in-breeding, Rusz said. The cats may be breeding, but the population isn't genetically diverse enough to ensure its continued survival.

The cat's future could depend on the introduction of females from elsewhere to beef up the gene pool, said Rusz.

Without a definitive study, the cougar debate is likely to rage on.

There's just enough evidence to spark a debate and not enough to settle it, said biologist Hamilton.

"I hope there are cougars out there," he said. "But my gut feeling says, why isn't it better documented?"


On the 'Net

Here's where to find more information:

* Michigan Wildlife Conservancy: www.miwildlife.org/

cougar.html

* Cougar facts: www.tdscats.com/cougar_

links.html

* Eastern cougar network: www.easterncougarnet.org/uppermidwest.htm

FAXBOX:
Cougar facts

* Top speed: 35 mph.

* Length: 7 to 9 feet.

* Weight: 150 to 200 pounds.

* Vertical leap: 15 feet.

* Broad jump: 40 feet.

* Color: Tawny, reddish brown or grayish brown coat with black markings on face, flanks and tail tip.

* Estimated number in Michigan: Fewer than 80.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by boehr
You posted the information that you protrayed as facts, it's up to you to answer the questions to support it. Face it, this is your spin. You can't even answer the questions. I'm done with this thread, nothing but an opinion poll, no factual information at all.
There goes boehr again with his insults and innuendoes. If he doesn't agree with something someone else posts, then he sums those comments up as, "No factual information," or some other such dribble. And you wonder why I don't dig up the proof he asks for? Why, just so he can belittle it or other wise dismiss it. I won't fall into that trap again. I thought you were not going to respond to any of my posts anymore anyway boehr. What ever happened to that pledge? It appears to me that every time a thread starts that you don't like, you try to pick a fight so the thread can get closed down.

[Linda G.]

Mike I didn't say a cougar could be caught in a regular coyote or fox set, they're too small, but cougars could and would leave evidence that they were there, if not a toe or fur, at least tracks where they stood when they sniffed the set, or stole the bait, perhaps even scat in the area.

As for would the DNR arrest or ticket someone who accidentally treed a cougar, I've forwarded that very question to DNR Law Enforcement in Lansing, let's see what they say.

The CO's I know are far more interested in working with the people and in having a good relationship with the law-abiding citizens of the area, and I can't see them doing anything that would be viewed by the general public as Gestapo-like tactics.

[Eastern Yooper]

Trophy Specialist, your attack on boehr was insulting, malicious, and unwarranted. Just because he does not share the same opinion as you do on certain issues is no reason for a personal attack. In my opinion, you owe him an apology.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
As for would the DNR arrest or ticket someone who accidentally treed a cougar, I've forwarded that very question to DNR Law Enforcement in Lansing, let's see what they say.
That question has already been answered, sort-of anyway. The Michigan Wildlife Conservancy tried to get permission from the DNR to take dogs into an area where cougar sign was reported and try to tree a cat. Their request was denied and they were told it is illegal to chase cougars with dogs.

Hamilton Reef, that was a fair, evenly reported article by Dave LeMieux.

Eastern Yooper, touché; I couldn't have said it better myself. LOL

[n.pike]

I agree with TS, I would be more concerned about repercussons from the DNR. Here is a fact, there was a dead one last Saturday in Hale, those that saw it were not intoxicated, it was there. I personally would not turn it in up here as we have some "questionable" law enforcement personnel.No offence intended to Boehr, I am basing that on my personal experience with our local officers. It answered my questions of existence. The only thing I dont know is if it was wild or captive. It appeared to be a wild one.

That makes 2 that I personally know of in Iosco county. As far as elusive, thats the same number of cats as bears that I have seen, and they aren't endangered.

[Linda G.]

Did the MWC have hunting licenses to do that, Mike? If they didn't, then it would be illegal...

did anyone take photos of that cougar, n.pike?

What did they do with it? Ground's pretty hard to be burying anything...lots of snow on top of it, too. So it's either been burned or it's still around, right? In someone's freezer?:p

[fishenfreak]

I would swear ive seen the tracks of a cougars near cannonsburg but people have told me that it could be a bobcat but im not to sure about that. The paws were awful big and for some reason the prints were 10-15 apart. I could be thing of something else and i know for a fact they werent coyotes,or a dog, but maybe a bobcats and i doubt that too.
I found these tracks off of eygpt valley and 5 mile at the public hunting parking lot. If ya dont believe me go look for your self.

[Hamilton Reef]

Back at the sportshop the consensus was:
If a cougar is seen, shoot it. The hunter will have the 15-minutes of fame in self defense after the bikers were killed in California and the cat would finally be a documented carcass for DNA, wild or tame inspection,and so on.

[Sarge]

A question to the doubters.


Does this situation more closely resemble:

A. The non-existant wolves that have eaten small dogs in the UP?

B. The non-existant UFOs that have stopped being seen now that nearly everyone has a cam corder.


(HINT) one of these turned out to actually be something.

[Mark Harmes]

If they did exist ahounds hunter would be able to confirm it by now, guess what, none has.

[timberdoodle528]

Not enough proof for me to believe it. Just a bunch of hearsay. I agree with Mark Harmes... My uncle runs hounds on bobcats everyday when season is open. They look for cat tracks for hours and go many many miles ..... they have never seen so much as a single cougar track. I think that the cats that have been seen were no more than realeased or escaped "pets". I don't believe that there is a breeding population of wild cougars in Michigan.

And how could you possibly be able to help it if your hound was on a bobcat track and jumped to a cougar track???? I don't believe that you would get arrested or fined for your dogs unintentionally running a cougar....Im not saying I know that as a fact...but I find that hard to believe.

[warthog]

mark what does hunting hounds have to do with this, thay are talking about cats.:D

[Linda G.]

From Alan Marble, Acting Law Enforcement Chief of the DNR's Law Division:

If folks are legally running dogs and they tree a cougar and get a picture of it, they're not going to get a ticket. Part of running dogs is that they sometimes tree things their master isn't necessarily after. It's expected, and an honest error is not confused with outright wildlife harassment.

However, if someone were to get a picture like that, we'd want to see it. It would represent some kind of actual, factual proof in a discussion marked largely by murky half-truths and northwoods lore.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
Did the MWC have hunting licenses to do that, Mike? If they didn't, then it would be illegal...

I don't think there is a license available to chase cougars in Michigan. It is illegal to chase or harras any threatened or endangered species and that would certainly include treeing the animal with hounds. However, in special circumstanes, the DNR can make exceptions. Forinstance, for research the DNR could grant an exception like they have for in studies on eagles, cormorants, wolves, etc...

[kenockee_ken]

My brother in law says he saw one cross the logging trail about a 100 yards in front of his truck while running bear with his dogs last year up in burgland. He really knows his stuff so I tend to believe every word.
KK

[Linda G.]

TS-I didn't mean a license to chase cougars, you know that. I meant a hunting license for one of the species that are legally hunted with treeing hounds...like a bear, furbearer or small game license.

I can see where they wouldn't issue permits to run dogs through the woods just to see what they might come up with, and undoubtedly, for some additional publicity...if you were not actively training your dogs, or hunting for a specific species with a license, running dogs to hopefully find a cougar would be wildlife harasssment, as Alan Marble stated above...

So if the MWC really wants to do this, they need to all buy small game licenses or furbearer licenses, then find someone with trained dogs that will work with them, then hunt every square inch of the state of Michigan for coyote or bobcat where that is in season, and see what they come up with...and they're now safe in the knowledge that if they do tree a cougar, they won't be arrested or ticketed as long as they tell the DNR that was not their specific intent-that their intent was to hunt coyotes or bobcats, per Alan Marble's statement above...just like every other group of coyote/cat/bear/raccoon hunters in the state

How many members of the MWC do you think would do that? How many do you think do any hunting at all?

;) :p

[Trophy Specialist]

I guess the door has now been opened now for houndsmen to run cougars, an endangered species, as long as they are targeting their dogs (supposedly) for other species. I wonder how admissible that would be in court the statement from Alan Marble should a CO or federal wildlife agent happened to disagree with him and write a ticket anyway?

What if a wild cougar was treed, killed or otherwise proven to exit in Michigan? What would happen is the DNR would have to manage the animals as an endangered species. This would cost the DNR much time and money, which would have to come out of an already strapped budget. In my opinion, this is why the DNR has been invoking on their campaign of plausible deniability, because what doesn't exist doesn't cost them anything. Wisconsin has also taken the same aproach to the issue and I'm not so sure I disagree. My next question is, do we really want an expanding population of wild cougars in Michigan?

[Linda G.]

No, whitedog, I don't do drugs...unless Motrin counts...:p

[Trophy Specialist]

Anybody that thinks that eastern cougars are not endangered is very wrong. Here's a link to the USF&WS that explains there official status -- http://endangered.fws.gov/i/a/saa48.html

[Swamp Monster]

I don't know about the cougers, but I have my doubts. This all reminds me of Big Foot...lots of eyewitness accounts yet the physical evidence just does not back it up. There is one thing I am sure of though. My lack of trust in the MWC. The Sleeping Bear Dunes story is another interesting one. If you have to dress a person up to make them look credible something's slightly fishy.

[WAUB-MUKWA]

I found this on another site

When I saw it, I believed

Published Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:52:45 AM Central Time


But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning."

--Acts 2:14-15

It was Saturday morning when we saw it. We were on our way to Marquette, to a funeral. No, we weren't drunk.

But we did see a cougar.

We keep hearing reports about big cats roaming around the area. I'm here to tell you they're true.

Our first cougar sighting took place in Marquette County. We were heading home from a visit at our niece's house.

"There's one," said my wife, Sue.

What she meant was, "There's a deer."

We were just past Van Riper Park, and sure enough there was a critter -- a pretty big one -- standing on a snowbank. But it wasn't a deer.

As we pulled even with it we realized it was a big, solid-colored cat.

No, it wasn't a bobcat. I've seen a bobcat and this wasn't it. For one thing, it was much bigger. For another, it didn't have that tabby cat look.

Our second sighting came Saturday morning, on our way to visit family and friends in Marquette. We were just outside Ewen and a big, long-tailed cat was meandering through a field.

"Did you see that?" my wife asked.

"That" was a big cat, ambling through a vacant field.

Wanting to get to the bottom of things, I pulled in at Big Valley Ford-Chrysler.

Greg Anderson was outside, chatting up some customers.

"Have you been getting any reports of big cats?" I asked him.

"Yep," he said. "One east of town and another around Kenton."

"People have been reporting them to the state, but they ask you if you've been drinking," he added.

I'm no wildlife biologist, but I reckon there are at least three or four dozen cougars roaming around western Upper Michigan. When state wildlife officials finally cop to the fact that we have a healthy population of mountain lions that number may well be higher.

A quick trip to the Internet supplied me with a description that jived with what we saw.

According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, "The eastern cougar is described as a large, unspotted, long-tailed cat. Its body and legs are a uniform fulvous or tawny hue."

You have to wonder how they got here. I suspect they, like the wolf, have never really been gone.

We're seeing them now because the deer population has exploded. Cougars feed primarily on deer, according to USFWS, but their diet may also include small mammals, wild turkeys, and occasionally domestic livestock, when available. (Come to think if it, not all the farms west of Ewen are abandoned.)

Why state officials continue to deny that they're here is another issue.

"Though the mountain lion (Puma concolor) has been considered extirpated in Michigan since the early 1900s, sightings of the big cats have persisted in both the Upper and Lower Peninsulas," according to Kirk Johnson of International Ecological Partnerships, Grand Junction, Colo.

Johnson adds, "The Department of Natural Resources does acknowledge the existence of this species within the state. However, state officials continue to insist that the majority of these sightings involve former captive animals or misidentification of other species, rather than a wild population of mountain lions."

We certainly have the habitat they need.

No preference for specific habitat types has been noted, said the USFWS Web page. The primary need is apparently for a large wilderness area (Upper Michigan would suit, I'd guess) with an adequate food supply. Male cougars of other subspecies have been observed to occupy a range of 25 or more square miles, and females from 5 to 20 square miles.

I got a call about a sighting east of Wakefield this summer. Another friend of mine said his wife's morning constitutional in north Ironwood was interrupted when she rounded a corner to find herself facing a big, long-tailed cat. That wasn't even a half-mile north of town.

A friend of mine, who lives east of Wakefield, tells me he hears them yowling. A young resident of Sturgeon Bay, Wis., told officials he spotted one near a city park this summer.

I've got to guess that if we know of two cats in Ontonagon County (Kenton is in Houghton County, just east of the Ontonagon line) and two in Gogebic, then there must be at least two or three more for each we see.

Male cougars can reach up to 8 feet in total length and weigh in excess of 220 pounds. Females are smaller, averaging slightly over 6 feet in length and up to 140 pounds.

By any of their several names felis concolor is the same critter in as many as 30 subspecies. Its many names include puma, deer tiger, Mexican lion, mountain screamer, brown tiger, catamount, silver lion, mountain demon, Indian devil, purple feather, king cat, sneak cat, mountain lion and panther.

By any name, they're big and potentially dangerous. Knowing they're out there will make a more careful nature lover out of me.

More local comments...



Cougar reports not uncommon

Published Tuesday, January 27, 2004 11:475 AM Central Time


To the editor:

Pertaining to the cougar sighting reported by Andy Hill: My niece's husband and young son saw a cougar at 30 yards while sitting in his deer blind near the Beagle Club, two months ago.

I have also seen a cougar twice within one week, next to the southwest shaft entrance to the White Pine mine, in 1993 or '94. The security guard also confided to having seen one near the same spot while partridge hunting. It jumped out from beneath an evergreen only yards from him and scared the tar out of him. He said the hairs on his head stiffened and he turned around and walked out of the woods as fast as he could go. He said he hadn't told anyone, until I told him I had just seen a cougar a second time in a week.

When I was about 17, hunting on Powers Road, I had what my dad believes was a cougar come to within 50 yards of my deer stand. I heard a screech and snarl. I was so scared that I hesitated to leave the ground stand at dark because I was too afraid to make the hike out to the road and wait to be picked up.

I waited until I saw my dad's vehicle lights, then ran out of the woods to the vehicle and told him what had happened. The next day he went back out there and found the tracks where it had walked up behind me.

He found a large bed beneath an evergreen where it had been lying down, got up and had walked up behind me, then ran off. My dad had hunted and trapped for years and knew bobcat tracks and said they were twice the size of a bobcat track.

Another Ironwood Township man is alleged to have had a cougar jump fleetingly onto his wood pile while making firewood near his home, although this is hearsay.

Two years ago, a hunter told my uncle he saw a cougar sneaking by, while hunting on my uncle's Wakefield property during bow season.

None of these were ever reported to the Desk Jockeys, as there are no photos. Thank you, Andy Hill.

James E. Bale

Ironwood

[jlizyness]

can we run our dogs on a Yedi ( bigfoot )? Do you know that the state of Washington says there are no Bigfoots but yet they do have a law that prohibits anyone from shooting a man like primate! What gives ? And on the subject of our DNR, they could have a cougar lying on the hood of their car and still would not see anything. I'm sorry but I have no faith in a dept. that estimates the deer kill by sitting on overpasses and counting deer on tops of cars as they go by. I wouldput my faith in those hunters rather than some cop with a green uniform on !!!!!!!!

[Trophy Specialist]

The reason they have a law against shooting a big-foot is they don't want someone to shoot a person by mistake. I've got a buddy that I grew up with in Manistee who is 6' 9" and is big and hairy and he wears size 15 clodhoppers. To the untrained eye he could easily pass for a big-foot. I honestly don't think there is a law about running a big-foot with your dogs, but I doubt they can climb trees and they might be dangerous to the hounds. LOL

[mich buckmaster]

Prove it and I will believe it!! As for someone had one DEAD!!!

BULL!! That is a bunch of crap if I ever heard such a thing. If someone did they would come forward. You dont hide and then say you saw something, this thing sounds a lot like


RAMPOLA!!!!!! Fishy to say the least!!

Boehr and Linda I agree with what you have said, you guys are creditable and do this stuff everyday!! TS, I also respect you as a writer and an outdoorsman. You guys live and work in this field but the proof of Cougars in Michigan is STILL NONE!!!!!!!!!!!

[FREEPOP]

Originally posted by Linda G.

However, if someone were to get a picture like that, we'd want to see it. It would represent some kind of actual, factual proof in a discussion marked largely by murky half-truths and northwoods lore.

No malice intended but, if someone came up with a picture, how could it be proven that it was taken here without the Capital in the background?

...and then some would say it was photo-chopped.....blah, blah.....

If I had dogs that treed one, I'd grab them and leave and never tell a soul. You'd be the next Rompola, whether you were telling the truth or not and the experience would change your life, for the worse, IMHO.

Many people fret too much about proving things to others' and I have learned to just sigh and accept that which is difficult for them to comprehend and be content with what I know to be true.

But, in this instance, I don't have a clue but still have an open mind :)

[Eastern Yooper]

20 years ago people were reporting wolf sightings and having these very same type of discussions.

Of course, the doubting Thomas', the DNR, and other assorted ex-spurts were demanding proof.

Accordingly, it will be interesting to see where we are at with cougars in another 20 years...... I'll have this thread archived "just in case."

[NATTY BUMPO]

FREEPOP,

My sentiments as well. What I find interesting is that most have chosen to either dismiss or badmouth the very recent reports from Sleeping Bear Dunes NL. And with absolutely no local knowledge in this instance - none.

I will agree that the "wilderness fiasco" flap last year at SBDNLwas a disaster - both in principle and from a PR perspective. But that has nothing to do with the current topic. Nothing at all.

Natty B.;)

[mich buckmaster]

No malice intended but, if someone came up with a picture, how could it be proven that it was taken here without the Capital in the background?

Very True!! You could climb up there and pose with the little ***** cat!!:D ;)

Accordingly, it will be interesting to see where we are at with cougars in another 20 years...... I'll have this thread archived "just in case."

That we will have to see, by then we will be talking through the computer without typing and monitors of all of us talking. :eek:

[FREEPOP]

Buckmaster, I'll send Scarletfever up there to pose for the picture with the kitty ;)

[Linda G.]

Wolves in MI, again, are no comparison...there have always been established populations of wolves in Minnesota, and it was ALWAYS expected by the DNR that sooner or later, some would show up in the UP. They just didn't go about ADVERTISING that fact, and when the first sightings of wolves started, it's very possible that those were not considered creditable...please note that I said, way back on this thread, and in many, many others, I am not saying that it isn't possible we may have a few wild cougars in this state, and it's most likely in that portion of the western UP, despite what whitedog says.

But in other areas of the state, unless they're great swimmers, it isn't likely...and until we actually have a critter to prove it, science doesn't accept wild rumors, stories and innuendo. And I try, as a writer, to go with what we KNOW, not what's being told at the local saloon.

Local knowledge, Natty, what would you consider that to be? Perhaps you had better talk to a good number of the people who live right outside the park, and hunt and fish there regularly...I would be happy to provide you with phone numbers, as soon as I got their permission.

What happened last year at SB has EVERYTHING to do with this-and with the fact that they haven't even thought about their vulnerability to other liability issues now, like warning people about the potential of bee stings, sun burn, and other things far more likely to happen at SB than being attacked by a cougar. If I thought terrorizing the public with tales of vicious wild animals would help keep the public off property I wanted to keep to myself, I'd do it, too.

This all makes for great cabin fever relief, I know, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but before you consider giving your money away to these rumors, think a little harder.

[ibthetrout]

Finally some proof of cougars in Michigan for all those doubters out there! Now how can you deny it?! There's no doubt this picture was taken in Michigan.....isn't that the capitol building in the background?

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/520/6808proof.jpg

[timberdoodle528]

Damn.....I was wrong.... guess they are here.....LMAO :D

[Bluegill Bob]

If you look close I think that is a Spaceship on the very tip if the Capitol. Oh Noooo!! That must be how they are crossing over the big lakes.

[timbergsp]

after reading every word in this post I beleave one thing you guys take this way to heart me being a houndsman no one thing if there is big cats in michigan I would not tell any one i treed one and for dang sure would not take a picture of the proof i did


by the way I beleave 100% there is big cats

[mich buckmaster]

LMAO on the capital picture..............TOO FUNNY!!

[Hamilton Reef]

Will cougars return to Illinois?

In January, the Eastern Cougar Network established a working relationship with the genetics laboratory at Southern Illinois University through Clay Nielsen, a 31-year-old wildlife ecologist at the Cooperative Wildlife Research Laboratory.
There are established populations of wild cougars as close as the Black Hills of South Dakota and west Texas. It seems likely that there's a small breeding population in Minnesota, and probably Michigan.

http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/N1684.Suntimes/B1279941;sz=720x300;ord=1746983094?

[Trophy Specialist]

HR - the link you provided goes to an on-line gambling site.

[Hamilton Reef]

That is one fast popup, but then cougars in Michigan would make for some good gambling bets.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/outdoors/cst-spt-bowman01.html

[LandBarge]

Dave Richey, retired Det. News outdoor writer, has some interesting cougar info on his web site.

http://www.daverichey.com/Pages/mountain_lion2.html

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by ibthetrout
Finally some proof of cougars in Michigan for all those doubters out there! Now how can you deny it?! There's no doubt this picture was taken in Michigan.....isn't that the capitol building in the background?

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/520/6808proof.jpg

I admit to being a (former) skeptic.....but how can anyone doubt it now?????
:D

[upstraightshot]

Well just to offer my 2 cents, I'm sure it won't convince anyone that doesn't believe, but it's only my opinon.

I work south of Gulliver on the lake Michigan shoreline and at least 5 people I work with have seen Cougars and 3 of them I do not doubt because of there many years in the woods. One guy almost hit one with his truck, about 3 days before a group of researchers showed up from I can't remember where but they said they were checking the lake Michigan shorelines for cougar sign. They were not affiliated with any state agency.
Well anyway after a week of wondering around they said they found scat,hair,tracks,and 6 deer killed by cougars they also saw a mother and a cub walking a trail near the beach.
A few months later we recieved a publication that they put out about the research they did and all the scat had been DNA tested to show that all the scat was related to the line of cats that live in the western US, Which stops the theory of pets being let loose because all cats that are bought as pets are from the south american line. This is just what I know so take it as you will.

Sorry I can't remember the name of the group but They did publish there findings I remember seeing part of it in the paper

[Linda G.]

That research group has made much of their findings in the Gulliver area, over and over again...their name was the Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation, now known (lots of us still aren't quite sure why they changed their name, would be interesting research, wouldn't it?) as the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy-Dr. Rusz, Mr. Fijakowski, and friends...the paper you received was their newsletter, I think it's a quarterly...

They showed a number of slides of the Gulliver area and research in the presentation at their headquarters in Bath that I saw-one of those photos was reportedly a rather blurry shot of a cougar-but I couldn't help but think it looked like a photo of a common house cat to me. Those slides are part of their regular presentation portfolio.

;)

[Sarge]

The article I read in a periodical, (this was a year to two ago dont remember which rag) was from an interview with a professor from CMU. No I don't remember his name either. I only know that he never saw a cat. He analyzed scat dna and found 2 things I thought at the time were significant.

1. These were indeed big cats. Not to say they weren't released pets.

2. These were the same cats in most cases but not all.

The conclusion was not definitive but certainly enough for me. That is, that there are big cats and they aren't migrating through, but residing. That's close enough for me. I don't really care if they are "wild" or escaped pets. I don't really care if they swam here or didn't. I don't even care if Linda G. ever sees one. I believe just the same.

My comment about the Wolves was a slap at the DNR's absolute absurd belief that if they say it isn't so, we as woodsmen and sportsmen are going to roll over and accept them at their word.

They did keep saying there are no wolves, and small pets kept disappearing leaving wolf-like signs behind.

Here we are again. People are seeing cats and there are cat-like signs that people have had tested. So come DNR and DNR wannabes, should look at the fact that not everyone toting firearms and/or walking in the woods is eating mushrooms out of cow pies. If the say they saw a big cat. It is reasonable to assume that they did see something. It would make a lot better sense to say "we are trying to find out what they saw, " Than to just say. "We have no proof they saw anything."

Any one who just plain believes the stuff that a DNR rep. says is being very naive or taking the party claim at face value. I will probably never be accused of that.
Remember DNR is a goverment department run by politicians and the rep. (any rep) is saying what his boss told him to. I do not bundle COs into that package, but I'm sure a few do fit there.

[n.pike]

Well put Sarge!

[Linda G.]

Dr. Brad Swanson, a professor of biology at CMU, who together with some of his grad students did a sampling of scat for a couple of years until as recently as last year under a grant from MWC. I'm not sure if he's still working with MWC or not-you might want to check the latest article on this in MON by Tom Carney, or the article published in last month's Woods N Waters.

Some of that scat WAS verified as cougar, but since the MWC brought that to him, he had no way of verifying its origin, other than to take the word of the person who submitted it.

Dr. Swanson told me when I interviewed him last year that CMU was trying to do an independent study on this subject, which WOULD be a scientific, conclusive study of scat they could VERIFY was collected from that area. I don't know if that was ever approved, started or what. If it was, they won't have any preliminary findings or other substantive data at all for another year or so-most studies are two to three years, minimum.

If you read any of my articles, you know I DON'T believe everything the DNR tells me-nothing could be further from the truth. But I do believe facts, not to mention all the houndsmen and trappers of Michigan that I know, and the overall fact is, we don't yet have any proof of wild cougars in Michigan.

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Okay, a friend asked me this last week.
How many people have actually walked up on a dead bear, or have seen the bones of a bear while in the woods?
I doubt very few people have EVER walked up on these bones. Does this mean bears don't exist?

[Linda G.]

c'mon....:rolleyes:

Do bears get hit by cars?

Do hound hunters tree bears and take good, clear photos, that can be verified by witnesses?

Do bears get brought into check stations?

Do bears leave verifiable tracks, hair and scat behind?

Do they leave further proof of their presence by the damage to bird feeders, camp doors, and coolers?

[timbergsp]

Now I beleave there is both released pets and wild big cats in michigan BUT the ????? I have is what would one of there "pets" eat would they not be declawed how would they catch food I know they could not take down a deer with out claws but could they catch a rabbit and maybe mice with out them what you think?

[LandBarge]

This isn't really related to this thread but I read in a Fort Wayne newspaper last night that some guy was bringing his "pet" cougar home from the vet. The cat was riding in the back seat of the guy's car. No cage. The guy slid off the road and the cougar escaped. The cops found it hiding in some bushes near an office building and tried to sedate it with tranquilizers. Two tranquilizer darts and the cat wouldn't go down. They theorize that because of the crash and the escape its adenaline level was at a high enough point to counteract the tranq's. At any rate, it wouldn't go down and they had to kill it.

I freely admit to being a skeptic when people first began talking about cats in MI. There have been too many reports by too many people with more than enough credibility to laugh off anymore.

[Ferg]

is not a hunter - it is prey - :eek:

Not all homeowners declaw their cats - ;)

ferg....
makes 'em defenceless

[Trophy Specialist]

It has been reported that 10,000 people have come forward with their cougar sightings. Every time people (and writers) say that there is no proof that cougars exist in the wild in Michigan, how do you think it makes those people feel? It's like calling them all liers and it must make them furioius. Many years ago I saw two wild wolves in the UP when the DNR was still denying their existance in Michigan. I didn't like being called a lier then eithor and as it turned out, it was the DNR that were proven to be the real liers. I choose to keep an open mind on cougars.

[Eastern Yooper]

People up here haven't forgot about all of the ridicule, the arrogance, and the dismissive attitude that some had towards wolf sightings 20 years ago.

Apparantly, one has to have a biology degree and a uniform with a DNR patch on the sleeve to have any credible say on this subject.

[Sarge]

TS my point exactly. Thank you.

It is surprising to me the number of people who have to be "proven right" to feel their value to mankind.

I don't need to be proven right or wrong, because I don't make any claims but I do have an open mind and I currently do believe.

No one has ever proven many things to me that I believe. I will keep believing until there is contrary proof. Somehow that seems better to me than to disbelieve until there is proof. In this case maybe even safer. Believing helps keep ones eyes open and mind alert in the wild.

[Linda G.]

Maybe whitedog will find us all a cougar this weekend...he's going over to the west end of the UP to look...hope boehr hasn't caught them all by that time...


;) :D

Boehr, I just got another notice that my box is still full-it isn't??

[Trophy Specialist]

I found this interesting. The DNR conducts a study every year called the Deer Camp Survey in the central UP. It is strictly voluntary and participating camps keep statistics during the gun deer season on what they see while hunting. I've been participating in the survey since its inception and believe it is one of the best efforts the DNR is making to assess the deer herd and firearm deer season. So what's this got to do with cougars? Besides deer sightings, starting in 2001, participants have also counted furbearer sightings. In 2001, even though cougars were not listed on the survey form, one cougar sighting was still reported. In 2002, again, one cougar was sighted. But in 2002, a strange thing happened in the survey report. Here how it reads:

"As was the case in previous years, coyotes topped the list of furbearers seen by deer hunters (170 observations). Camp cooperators also recorded 64 bobcat sightings, 59 wolf, 20 martin, 20 fisher, 8 fox and 0 cougar (although 2 camps felt they might have seen a cougar)."

On the survey form, there is no category for "might have seen a cougar," rather is just says cougar. The DNR, with their plausible deniability policy on cougars, will not even report actual sightings in the Deer Camp Survey report any more without dumbing them down. No, they first qualify cougar sightings with, "felt they might have seen." Funny how you don't see wolves, martins or fishers qualified that way, even though they are much harder to positively identify. I wonder why that is?

[Mark Harmes]

Warthog, lets go get a 40 after work and talk about dogs and cats and bears :p

[Hamilton Reef]

When you take a walk through the Sleeping Bear Dunes be sure have Lassie at your side. I saw on TV how Lassie responds to a cougar. It was impressive.

[NATTY BUMPO]

HR, Thats a good one. What sort of martial arts can Lassie do now- Judo? Kung Fu? What??
BTW. if yr coming up to SBDNL anytime soon, bring your snowshoes or X-country skis. We're gettin' another 5-8" of white stuff today.
:D

Natty B.

[mich buckmaster]

It is surprising to me the number of people who have to be "proven right" to feel their value to mankind.

Sarge How many people said they saw UFO's---------MORE THAN 10,000 I can tell you that.

Until there is Proof in Pictures, dead, dead, PROOF, DEAD!! Then I will personally believe it, until then I am still a non believer.

[NATTY BUMPO]

I had posted early in this thread re our groups experiences up at Sleeping Bear Dunes NP while on a snowshoe hike two weeks ago today. In today's Traverse City Record Eagle is an article by Gordie Charles, a well-respected outdoor writer. He doesnt go off "half-cocked". The title is:Cougar sightings spark debate Thats putting it mildly.:rolleyes:
As I had posted earlier, Ms Eleanor Comings of Frankfort, a long-time Park volunteer, was followed for "twenty minutes at a distance of a few feet" by a big cat. She and Ranger Vern spoke at length to our group about the mounting evidence from Sleeping Bear. IMO these folks are not "loonies, nor were they drunk or high" either as others have opined here.I'm keepin' an open mind on this one. I dont think the TC R-E put this up on their website. www.record-eagle.com

Natty B.

[Ferg]

MUCC has a cougar on thier calandar for Feb - so it must be true?

ferg....
:D :eek: :D
Running for cover....

[FREEPOP]

That is very funny Ferg. I'm glad we finally have our answer :)

[BFTrout]

I'm not sure if there are very many downstate, but there are certainly Mt. Lions in the Yoop. From Ironwood to the Soo.
Just recently (3 weeks ago) we got a confirmed Canadian Lynx in a trap over in Chippewa Co. And those aren't supposed to be in MI either.
The DNR has changed their statement about weather or not Mt. Lions are in MI, they are saying "yes" now, but not in breeding numbers. Those must be some old cats that the old timers saw 20-30 years ago and we're still seeing today.
BFTrout
take it for what you will. . .

[WAUB-MUKWA]

They are definately around here. With the UP still being a very remote place, with just over 300,000 population there is plenty of room for a big cat to roam. If there are sightnings still in the LP, then there is no arguing about it. The cats are here.

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by BFTrout

The DNR has changed their statement about weather or not Mt. Lions are in MI, they are saying "yes" now, but not in breeding numbers.

Trout,
Just curious...where can I find the DNR's statement on big cats?

[LandBarge]

Detroit Free Press article of 11/21/01

DNA proves 20 cats roaming UP and Northern LP.

http://www.freep.com/sports/outdoors/cougar1_20011101.htm

[Ferg]

these 'Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation' guys the Anti-hunting group?

They WANT to prove cats run in Mi so they can 'preserve' the area and restrict hunting in those area in order to 'preserve' the cat's habitat?

I'm not speaking of what I know, only of what I think, so someone please fill in the blanks here for me -

thanks

ferg....

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Ferg
these 'Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation' guys the Anti-hunting group?
No the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is not anti-hunting. In fact, they allow hunting on their land near Bath, MI. However, if it is proven (without a shadow of a doubt) that wild cougars do live in Michigan, then they would have to be managed as an endangered species by the DNR. What that would mean is unclear. In some cases, areas have been closed to hunting to protect certain endangered species. In my opinion, this is why the DNR is fighting with the MWC so vigorously to deny that wild cougars live in Michigan. The FEDs typically force states to manage endangered species, but often without any monetary assistance. With a strapped state budget, I can understand the DNR's delema, but their position certainly understandably wrankles many people who believe cougars are indeed here.

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by Trophy Specialist
No the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is not anti-hunting.

According to their website, all they want to do is help landowners and managers preserve / restore habitat. They have a couple of good pages on Michigan cougars including photos of a cat in summer foliage and some tracks in the snow, and in dirt.

Trophy's comment on the DNR's dilema if cougars eventually are proven to be here makes sense. But with all the research, the sightings, and a building momentum for more public awareness, it's becoming more and more difficult for anyone to continue to deny the cats' existence in our state.

http://www.miwildlife.org/cougar.html

http://www.miwildlife.org/geninfo.html

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Like I said earlier, they are here. I'm glad they finally came out and said they were. We up here were begining to wonder what type of purple mushrooms they were on.:eek:

[SPH]

I had a conversation with contractor that I work with today and had to share this story. I am not a big believer about the cougars in Michigan but this guy is a straight shooter and I believed every word.

During the fall bow hunting season in 2003, he shot a deer and went out track about 10:00pm. When they finally came up on the deer it had been buried (about 90%) and the animal had only eaten about a 1-1/2Ibs. of the meat. Late in october another hunter shot a doe on the same property and when it was found it was covered with corn stocks and had scratches down its sides and again only about 1-1/2 Ibs of meat had been eaten. This time they found tracks and sure enough it was a cat. He called the DNR out to take a look and the C.O. measured the print at 5". The officer admitted that it was a cat and it must have weighed roughly 60Ibs. Knowing that it is not possible for a bobcat to be that big, he asked the C.O. if it was a cougar and he replied (with a laugh) that we do not have cougars in Michigan.
I do not know what any of this means but that C.O. sure didn't have a good answer. (This took place and a town east of Clare)

Just thought I would share this story!

[Linda G.]

SPH-could you please share the name of that CO either via pm or via email (Lindag10@hotmail.com), so that can be verified? Might make a good article, too. Thanks!

If the contractor doesn't remember his name, if he could just provide me with the date or approximate date. The DNR keeps a record of all runs. Thanks!

[SPH]

I will ask the next time I see him. I know about where he lives but not being familiar with the area, I do not know what county it is for sure. He is a big hunter and probably knows the C.O.s name also.

[markbouman]

What about the BIGFOOT in Luther swamp?:D

[SPH]

As far as big foot is concerned, you keep looking and keep us posted if you find anything.

On a different note, I did get a confirmation about the time and place where the cat tracks and deer were found. The location was Mecosta County about a mile from the Isabella border. The second occurance was during the second week of bow season (Roughly October 14).

He did get a report from the DNR officer and will make a copy for me. When I get the report I will let you know the report number and the C.O.'s name.

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Originally posted by Hamilton Reef
When you take a walk through the Sleeping Bear Dunes be sure have Lassie at your side. I saw on TV how Lassie responds to a cougar. It was impressive.

Yea, sad thing about that TV commercial is some think it's real!:eek:

[SPH]

I am not a cat hunter and do not know the first thing about cat tracks. This was passed on by a friend and I was just intrigued so I figured I would share it. It was confirmed by the DNR officer that it was a cat track and the measurement was documented. As soon as I get a copy of the C.O.'s writeup I will share its contents. I am a skeptic myself and until I see a dead lion, I will always question the theory.

[WoodyP]

I myself have seen a cougar in Michigan, so I think it's time I chimed in. Approximately 7-9 years ago (in the summer), my wife and I were driving south on M-66 just south of US-10 when a cat approximately 7-8 feet long (with tail) crossed from west to east across M-66 directly in front of us. The cat was all wet looking and kinda dirty gray as if it had just been in swamp water. I would approximate the cat's weight at 100-120 lbs. There is a few miles of pretty wild low land without many homes in that area north of Barryton. After calling the DNR (Don't Need Reality), I was rudely brushed off as a prankster or nut-case. (Just another case of our public servants acting as our masters)
Very near the same time people west of Howard City (montcalm cty) and other people near Paris (north of Big Rapids in Mecosta Cty) took pictures of cougars from their homes. These pictures were published inlocal newspapers, one of which was the Big Rapids Pioneer. These sightings took place about 35-40 miles apart.
Regards,
Woody

[JackpineSavage]

I would have to agree that there are a few wild cougars in Michigan. Mainly because of the solid evidence that has been presented ( droppings, tracks, and kills). A good thing that was brought up on the Michigan out of doors show this weekend was the first known sighting of a live Wolverine in the state. The hunters that stumbled upon the animal have a whole role of pictures to prove they arent just a coupple of rummies making up stories. The point is, we cant just say that they arent there based on assumptions.

[JackpineSavage]

Please exuse me while i remove my foot from my mouth, you have an indisputable point there whitedog. :rolleyes:

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by JackpineSavage
Please exuse me while i remove my foot from my mouth, you have an indisputable point there whitedog. :rolleyes:

In the 21st Century, the old adage of seeing is believing seems pretty draconian. Organizations like Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is willing to put their reputation on the line by proclaiming the existence of cougars in Michigan. Is any one individual or organization with comparable credentials willing (or able) to take a stand to the contrary? Of course not or we would have heard from them by now. Note, the operative word here is ÒcredentialsÓ.

Wildlife Conservancy has published a pamphlet called Living With Cougars In Michigan. For more information on this and to order their 64 page research report entitled The Cougar In Michigan ($15.00 & $4.00 S&H) write to:

Michigan Wildlife Conservancy
6380 Drumheller Road
P.O. Box 393
Bath, MI 48808

(517) 641- 7677

wildlife@wildlife.org
www.miwildlife.org

[Hacksaw]

I myself have also seen a cougar.....about 2 months ago off from

shimmel road in sherman township, st joe county By lake

Templine I am not the only one that has seen one in this area.

So really I don't care what the COs think I know what I saw and

It wasent no house cat!

[Chrome steel]

Im not saying much I put down not sure but then again I was't sure about wolverines either till I seen a video clip on the news with one running next to snowmobiles right in our back yard in the thumb in Bad Aex who would of knew? So im not doubting there aren't any cougars why sould anyone else. Just because you haven't seen proof yet. I also seen a few years back on michigan out of doors doing a story about cougars in Michigan and interviewd a DNR officer that mentioned he and alot other officers wouldn't say if there was or wasn't cougars im Michigan. Then at the same time the host mentioned that they wouldn't want to scare the residents of michigan they would think they are too dangerous to be running around wich just isn't true. So there maybe did you think there where wolverines?

Show may have been practicle sportsmen? but what I say is a fact.

[boehr]

Originally posted by Hacksaw
So really I don't care what the COs thinkOf course you don't. :D

[LandBarge]

This is an interesting read. It chronicles the history of Michigan cougar sightings from the pre-settlement era when cougars were native to all 83 counties of Michigan to the present. It is published by Michigan Wildlife Conservancy on its website.


http://www.miwildlife.org/cougarmilestones.htm

[Bucktail Butch]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. Is it just a coincidence that the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy and Fred Trost's Practical Sportsman are both headquartered in Bath?

2. To those of you who don't believe anything the DNR says or advocates, but put all your faith in the National Park Service's word as gospel, you should live here near Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore. I do, and if anyone from the NPS told me it was daytime, I'd look out the window just to make sure for myself. Those people proved that they have no credibility during the recent fiasco regarding the "wilderness designation" attempt. They were soundly defeated in that effort and admitted it, but now that it has time to cool off, they are at it again. If they could get a solid following as to the existance of cougars in their park, don't you suppose they would use that to their advantage in their ongoing crusade to "wilderness-ize" things? Could that be a reason why they jumped on that bandwagon? If that aide was tracked by the cougar for all that distance, don't you suppose a track could have been found somewhere along the line? That area is primarily sand and other soft soil.

3. NATTY BUMPO, we need to talk. You should have come to the Traverse City Meet n' Greet we had a La Seniorita on Garfield this past Wednesday evening.

4. Boehr and Linda G. are both credible and probably more knowledgable than most of us. I don't think emotion and opinions are going to overrule fact. Solid proof is needed. Period.

5. Nobody spends more time on rural roads than local police agencies, school bus drivers, rural mail carriers, or road commission employees. I have yet to hear of one of those people report sighting a cougar here in Benzie County.

[rockinmichigan]

I chose yes, and it may sound like a silly reason why, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was cougers in Michigan. Seems like Michigan has a good variety of everything else, why not cougers in MI?

[Hamilton Reef]

Cougars can bring out the passionate supporters.

Other lion developments

An anonymous caller to the Arizona Game and Fish Department's Tucson office left a message stating he would shoot anyone tracking the mountain lions in Sabino Canyon, a department official said Friday.
"It was a guy screaming and ranting and raving," Perry said. "He said, 'I'm going to get up on the ridges above Sabino Canyon with a high-powered rifle. If I see anybody following lions, I'm going to shoot them dead.' "

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/13625.php

[rockinmichigan]

Hamilton Reef, that was an interesting read. If they were plentiful and legal to hunt with its own season I wouldn't have a problem hunting them. I'd be happier then hell to get one during "mountain lion season" if there was one.

[KEN C]

All this debate and no proof! The facts are this: people run coyotes and bears all over in this state. I am willing to bet that some of these same people have been out west and ran lions with those same dogs. And low and behold no one has ever treed one in Michigan. Funny some guys in the thumb were able to Tree a wolverine contact the DNR and take pictures. Now there is proof. Until we see a dead cat, credible photo, credible track, it all make believe.
8 million people in this state and no one has any credible proof that mountain lions exist. Except this MWC org. down in bath who have there own agenda.

[Chrome steel]

All this debate and no proof how much proof do you need??? Do you belive in god?? so you haven't seen him so how do you know he exist?? Then how couldn't you belive there aren't cougar in michigan?? You really think they succeded in killing off every last cougar that was living in michigan no way impossible these cats are so illusive inst not funny. How come a school bus driver or mail carrier hasn't seen one?? how do you know they haven't and if not the cat would hear them driving and scat take off they are wise. so you never used to belive that wolverines existed in michigan anymore till you seen one on the news,how long how many years did that take before one was video taped??? you want proof look it up all the proof you want on the web just try it and stop wasting my time in trying to convence that there aren"t any cougar just cuz you yourself hasent seen one yet who are you your nobody one or 2 people out of a million. next your tell me jesus wasnt real he was made up as a story come on give me a brake im sick of it. wait your see you will hear more every year like we had been for years about more and more cougar sittings. Jesus isnt real where the proof??? and a gougar couldnt be???

[Chrome steel]

why you don't see many sittings is because they arent as abundence as the west.


and in 1989 why would the DNR change the cougar status from extinct to endangerd????

http://www.freep.com/sports/outdoors/cougar1_20011101.htm

[rockinmichigan]

Never seen a mountain lion in the wild, in Michigan or any other state, but just because I haven't seen doesn't mean anything. I believe they are in Michigan. Look at it like this, there is plenty of prey for them in Michigan, whether you're talking squirrels, or rabbits, or deer, any kind of bird or fish they want. Hell, if there isn't any in Michigan I don't see why they not bring them to Michigan. Could help with the deer population if they are extinct in Michigan or even endangered.

[LandBarge]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bucktail Butch
[B]A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. Is it just a coincidence that the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy and Fred Trost's Practical Sportsman are both headquartered in Bath?

4. Boehr and Linda G. are both credible and probably more knowledgable than most of us. I don't think emotion and opinions are going to overrule fact. Solid proof is needed. Period.

Of course it's coincidence! Unless you already have your mind made up that there is a conspiracy! Get real. :)

There **IS** solid proof. Period.
Invest a few bucks and read the report. Unless you don't believe DNA test results. Kinda like OJ's jury not believing his DNA wasn't conclusive proof that he is a killer. What was it...one chance in 650 billion that someone else might have the same DNA? How many planets would it take to even hold that many people? Unless of course the sample was planted! Oh! I almost forgot. It's all a big conspiracy! The woods are full of munchkins planting cougar scat for the researchers to find and test. Jeez! Some of you people could go to Hollywood and make a fortune writing "whodunit" scripts. When you make your first mil, try to remember who sent you there!

Like I said before, if there is any person, organization, state or federal agency willing to publicly contradict the scientifically collected proof that so far exists, why haven't we heard from them?

Someone will be eating a lot of crow on this one, Gentlemen. I'm glad it won't be me. ;)

[Linda G.]

and bigfoot and martians and little green elves exist, too...it's all a matter of perspective, and whatever you want to believe when it comes to fairy tales and religion, but science, true proven science, doesn't work that way. Sorry, it just doesn't.

Dichotomy has always dictated a huge difference between religion and science. To even begin to compare the existence of a religious icon with the existence of cougars in Michigan is so far off the wall as to be beyond ridiculous...I would gently remind those who have compared a belief in Jesus Christ to a belief in the existence of wild cougars in this state that there are MANY religions in this world that do not believe in the existence of Jesus Christ, and the people who belong to those religions far outweigh the numbers of Christians and Jews in this world.

Then there is the matter of whether or not what is being called "science", the work done by the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy, actually fits the description of science as described by their peers-and so far it doesn't...call any university science professional, or any scientific institution other than MWC, and ask them their professional opinion of the research done by the MWC.

Yes, we have a wolverine, but how did we get that wolverine? Do you really think wolverines have existed here in Michigan as a wild species for eons and no one ever noticed them? C'mon...that wolverine was either released or an escapee from a garbage truck, it's a shame that no further work is being planned to determine that animal's origin...yes, we have at least one lynx in the UP, but like the wolf, that is an animal that has been endemic to Michigan since the glaciers left, and until last November, was only extipated from the state for a period of 20 years or so-it makes perfect sense that with a decent winter ice bridge, sooner or later we'd have another lynx in Michigan.

I would remind everyone that BOTH of these critters were found and reported immediately to the DNR by sportsmen-yet, no sportsmen have managed to find any wild cougars out there yet...

It doesn't hurt anything to believe, like children believe in the tooth fairy, that there may be wild cougars running around out there, breeding and raising cubs...until you try to make money off it, and proliferate your beliefs on others...so, if you want to believe that wild cougars exist in this state, fine, but in the meantime, while the MWC is making money off the people in the state of Michigan, people like me are going to continue to ask them for proof.

[PITBULL]

They exist!

[KEN C]

Never even gave the wolverine any thought? I wonder if it could have gotten into some garbage and hitched a ride from Canada? Or it may have been released by someone. Either wat it is probably a once in a lifetime event.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
while the MWC is making money off the people in the state of Michigan, people like me are going to continue to ask them for proof.
How is the MWC making money off the cougar issue? The last I read their contributions are down since they took up the cause. Also, what kind of proof will it take to convince all the skeptics that wild cougars exist in Michigan? It seems like any proof that is presented is never sufficient to convince some people who have gone on record saying that there are no cougars. Even if a cougar were to be produced (dead or alive), many pig headed people would still dismissed it for some reason or another. I'm sure that there are a few people out there that still think there are no wild wolves in Michigan.

In my opinion, it has already been proven that cougars are running around in Michigan. 10,000 reported eyewitness sightings, photos, videos, tracks, kills, scat, DNR analysis and other evidence are all too overwhelming to dismiss. The real question in my mind is whether they are indigenous stock or captive releases. We also need to determine how many there are and where they live.

[Linda G.]

That's a good question, Mike...I've seen their new headquarters in Bath, very expensive construction and furnishings, not to mention the amount of land they have in a fairly pricey neighborhood, perhaps you could ask them to tell us how that was all financed?

In fact, let's see a full financial disclosure statement, that would be good. How much do Dennis Fijakowski and Dr. Rusz make every year? I'll bet it's a lot more than you and I do. How much are their various other employees paid, and how many do they have? How many new members and donations have they acquired since the cougar controversy began? Exactly where does that go? What do they do with the fee they sometimes charge for their cougar seminars?

I assume that they're listed as a "non-profit", but I've had a lot of experience with a variety of non-profits, and the CEOS and board members of many of those non-profits make just as much money as the CEO's and board members of a major business corporation...

I'd also like to have them explain to us why they changed their name last year-did it have anything to do with federal tax and other non-profit benefits?

If the MWC can PROVE (again, there's that nasty word), that they put out as much money on research and wildlife habitat improvements of one type or another as they take in, then I'll shut up...but you and I both know that's not going to happen.

Or is it? Let's find out...and btw-wasn't there a member of this site that had an acquaintance that had a DNR documented encounter with a cougar? What happened to that?

[KEN C]

Trophy specialist? Where is this so called proof. Has it been published? I have yet to see any credible proof. Please provide links to this proof.
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/
Now the above website is reputable and it states that all though multiple sightings have occured in Michigan the evidence is inconclusive.

[rockinmichigan]

Just for the record, I believe in Bigfoot, munchkins, martians, and little green elves as well as Michigan holding some mountain lions. Don't believe me that munchkins exist? Just watch "Wizard of Oz" and tell me that there is no such things as munchkings :D

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by KEN C
Trophy specialist? Where is this so called proof. Has it been published? I have yet to see any credible proof. Please provide links to this proof.
What would you consider credible proof?
If you consider credible proof 10,000 reported eyewitness sightings, photos, videos, tracks, kills, scat, DNR analysis and other evidence, then this has been published in many places. Just scroll back on this thread and you'll find links.

[Bucktail Butch]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LandBarge
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Bucktail Butch
[B]A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. Is it just a coincidence that the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy and Fred Trost's Practical Sportsman are both headquartered in Bath?

4. Boehr and Linda G. are both credible and probably more knowledgable than most of us. I don't think emotion and opinions are going to overrule fact. Solid proof is needed. Period.

Of course it's coincidence! Unless you already have your mind made up that there is a conspiracy! Get real. :)

There **IS** solid proof. Period.
Invest a few bucks and read the report. Unless you don't believe DNA test results.


Land Barge,
I wasn't trying to imply a conspiracy. It's the fact that many of us don't hold Fred Trost or the MWC in very high esteem and consider their credibility suspect.
Regarding the DNA proof, where is it? Who has it? And please don't tell me it's the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.
No offense intended.
Butch

[rockinmichigan]

I have heard stories on the news of eyewitness accounts of mountain lions. How credible I couldn't tell you, but like I've said it wouldn't surprise me in the least that they're around the state somewhere. If there are some around there might not be very many. What do you guys think the chances are of some being in the Wisconsin/Michigan U.P. border area?

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
I'll bet it's a lot more than you and I do.
I just did my taxes and for their sake I sure hope they make more than me. LOL

Linda, if you believe that the MWC is bilking thier members and contributers, then research and write an article exposing them? Like a couple other writers, it sounds as though you have a grudge againt the MWC or at least some of thier staff.

[Linda G.]

but the financial dealings of non-profit organizations doesn't exactly sell outdoor publications, Mike, and you know that. What sells outdoor publications are big bucks, big bucks, big bucks-the whitetailed variety. It's downright difficult to get almost anything else printed these days, especially what many people would view as a very dull and boring article about the financial status of a non-profit organization.

But it still would be interesting to know the answers to all of those questions, and here, in front of the public, where questions can be asked and answered directly, is the perfect format, don't you think? If not here, then I'd be happy to host such a discussion over on the MON board.

I'm not saying the MWC is trying to bilk anybody...and hopefully, that will be proven if they would like to come forward with direct answers to direct questions.

I don't have any grudge against them at all, nor do any of the other outdoor writers that have written about MWC lately, pro or con. I am just interested in getting the ENTIRE story out there, not just what makes for good tabloid fodder.

[Buddy Lee]

The MWC is laying their credibility on the line here. I for one, would be interested in seeing an article on their financials. Either they are a fraud, or they are not...let's get the information out there and decide based on facts. I would be shocked if they are lying about cougars...it would be the end of the MWC if they were exposed.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
the financial dealings of non-profit organizations doesn't exactly sell outdoor publications, Mike, and you know that.

I don't have any grudge against them at all, nor do any of the other outdoor writers that have written about MWC lately
I disagree. Any article(s) slanted towards cougars in Michigan these days will garner plenty of interest. Throw in exposing corruption in an organization like the MWC and it'd sell. Tom Carney has written 10 articles at last count on Michigan's cougars, which proves the value of such a topic in the press. Linda, you and I sat through the same cougar seminar in Lewiston last month when Tom Carney totally lost his temper. Did you not see him yelling and screaming with his veins bulging from his face as he pounded his fist on the table? (It's on tape) He shouted insults towards the MWC and also directed his rage directly at Dennis Fijalkowski who was also sitting in the room. Dennis, to his credit never lost his temper; which increased my respect for him immensely. On the other hand, Tom Carney's potentially libelous tirade convinced me that his cougar exposé has been nothing more than a grudge against the MWC. I don't personally know anybody at the MWC and have never spoken to them before, but it's my opinion after digesting all of this controversy, that the MWC has been the victim of a smear campaign.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Buddy Lee
I would be shocked if they are lying about cougars...it would be the end of the MWC if they were exposed.
I agree.

[KEN C]

Confirmation: Proof beyond a reasonable doubt
1. The body of a dead cougar, or a live captured animal.

2. Photographs (including video) that clearly identify one or more cougars, and which can be certified as to date, time and place by the original photographer. An example of a picture taken from a wildlife camera in Minnesota in April, 2002 that provides proof of a cougar is shown on the right.

3. Evidence which has been analyzed and identified as DNA material from Puma concolor (cougar). DNA can be extracted from scat (the most common source of DNA evidence) or from hair collected, e.g. by a "hair snare." DNA analysis can also be used to determine sex, which is important information to determine if there is a breeding population.

Any of the above and I will eat some crow!!!!!!!!

[LandBarge]

Land Barge,
I wasn't trying to imply a conspiracy. It's the fact that many of us don't hold Fred Trost or the MWC in very high esteem and consider their credibility suspect.
Regarding the DNA proof, where is it? Who has it? And please don't tell me it's the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.
No offense intended.
Butch [/B][/QUOTE]

Butch,
None taken. If you're asking who has physical control or possession of the samples, I can't answer that. The testing of the scat samples was conducted by the Genetics Lab at Central Michigan University. This is only an assumption on my part, but wouldn't they keep "samples of the samples" just in case? Maybe someone more familiar with biology/genetic lab protocol could anwer.

Are we agreed that the feds acknowledge their (cougars) existence at Sleeping Bear? It seems to me that the only thing (according to a November 19, 2003 editorial in the Traverse City Record-Eagle) that the government agencies involved are arguing is whether or not the cats in and/or around the park are native or incidental. Quote from above editorial: The agency clings to the notion that the big predators "must be escaped or released pets".

Another question (and a valid one) that keeps popping up is why haven't any of these cats been treed? Just a possibility to consider: There are estimated to be only about 30 of the animals roaming Norther Lower Michigan and the entire U.P. (Their presence has been documented in 7 counties but they certainly aren't restricted to only those counties) Are we talking hundreds of thousands of acres? A thousand square miles? I have no idea. Whatever it is, it's an awlul lot of dense forest and impenetrable swampland for an animal like a cougar to hide in. Kinda like the proverbial needle, yes? And only a handful of guys have been searching off and on for what, a few years at most? Once the word gets out and more trackers with good dogs go looking for big cats, I have no doubt that one will be treed in our fair state. It's only a matter of time. Just my humble opinion.:)

Regards,
LandBarge

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by KEN C
Confirmation: Proof beyond a reasonable doubt
1. The body of a dead cougar, or a live captured animal.

2. Photographs (including video) that clearly identify one or more cougars, and which can be certified as to date, time and place by the original photographer. An example of a picture taken from a wildlife camera in Minnesota in April, 2002 that provides proof of a cougar is shown on the right.

3. Evidence which has been analyzed and identified as DNA material from Puma concolor (cougar). DNA can be extracted from scat (the most common source of DNA evidence) or from hair collected, e.g. by a "hair snare." DNA analysis can also be used to determine sex, which is important information to determine if there is a breeding population.

Any of the above and I will eat some crow!!!!!!!!

You are going to to have one helluva feast! Enjoy!! :D

[boehr]

Hard to get those de-clawed pet cougars to climb a tree.:)

[Linda G.]

Yes, Mike, I was there...did you notice how quickly Tom calmed right back down? Do you think maybe he was just making his point and getting our attention when at least a small portion of the room appeared to be napping? I do...I don't think we listened to a tirade at all. Do you know Tom Carney? If you did, you might not have found his "tirade" so startling-Tom is a very passionate person who cares deeply about the subjects he gets involved in.

Did you read the talking points that he very kindly printed out for every one of us on his seminar? I found those very interesting, and a short summation of what has been months and months of in-depth research that took a great deal of Tom's time, far more than I, or any other writer than I'm aware of, would be willing to put into the subject.

I don't personally know anybody at the MWC and have never spoken to them before

Well, Mike, perhaps you should...before you profess any further knowledge of the MWC and their work. You might find it very enlightening. I did.

As for treeing or finding a cougar, and the fact that hasn't happened yet because it's "estimated that only 30 or so cougars exist"-the MWC says 80...30, 80, whatever, the fact remains that we managed to find both a lynx and a wolverine, the latter of which hasn't been seen in this state since at least 1836, and that sighting has always been questioned...no one knows if Michigan has EVER had any wolverines, and yet, houndsmen managed to find one!!

Whatever, folks, we all just keep going round and round, on many of the same points that have been posted previously right here on this very thread...like the feds, and their so-called belief in the existence of cougars...again, ask the USFWS, the federal government's final authority on endangered wildlife species, what THEY think about the possibility of wild cougars in the lower peninsula of Michigan...just cause a northern Michigan newspaper and a VOLUNTEER from the Park Service says so, doesn't necessarily make it so...

I'll be happy to eat crow when I am supplied with satisfactory answers to just a few of the questions I've posted, time and time again, right here on this very thread...but I haven't received ANY ANSWERS AT ALL...so I guess I'll just keep questioning, and looking for that proof, and the MWC will continue to collect donations, grants, and memberships...

[Trophy Specialist]

KEN C

Actually, there were a couple cases in the not so distant past where cougars were captured or killed in the wild in Michigan. These were escaped/released, captive cats, but cougars none-the-less. There are photos and videos of cougars in the wild in Michigan. The people who took those shots passed muster. Those shots were put to plenty of scrutiny and nobody has ever questioned their authenticity. There has been DNA testing done that positively identified scat found in the wilds of Michigan as having come from cougars. It looks like all three of your tests have been met.

I once ate a crow just to see what it tasted like and it wasn't all that bad. Here's my recipe: Par-boil the breast meat for at least 3 hours then sauté the bird in butter, onion and then season to taste. Tastes like chicken. LOL

[FREEPOP]

Okay, I don't have any dazzling insightful stuff to ramble on about, but I do have a question.

Linda and anyone else so inclined, if you saw a cougar (puma, cat a mount etc.) on one of your adventures (turkey hunting or something like that) would you contact the DNR?

would you write an article stating what you saw?

would you post it here publically so all could see?

One condition, you either forgot your camera or it was out of film or batteries, not that it would matter much, a picture is a picture, you still need proof of where it was taken.

You know the heat you'd take, the ridicule, bashing etc, let alone your reputation as a writer.

Would you still do it?

[Linda G.]

Outdoor writers are questioned and ridiculed all the time, it's part of the business, and you have to accept that. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen...

Let me tell you about my first Michigan wild wolf sighting...I came around a bend in the road, a dirt two track, and lo and behold, a large gray/silver animal was standing in the road about 100 feet in front of me. There was no doubting what it was just from his size, his height, his stance, and his piercing eyes, which despite the fact that he was some distance away I could still see clearly. He stood there about 2 seconds, then in one clean leap disappeared into the forest. He did not appear to be collared or tagged.

I immediately jumped out of the truck, and since I always try to have a camera on me of some sort, took a series of photos of the muddy tracks in the road. I then dug out my tackle box, found a tape measure, measured the tracks, including the distance between the tracks, and took photos of the tape measure next to the tracks. I walked into the woods in the direction the wolf had gone, and got lucky a few minutes later by finding a couple of strands of gray hair on the end of a branch that I put into a film bottle. I then noted my EXACT location, and headed straight to the Crystal Falls DNR office, where I talked to the wolf biologist, Jim Hammill, who took down all of the information I gave him, and took the hair samples. I later sent him the photos. He was able to not only confirm that I had indeed seen a wolf, but was able to tell me that it was an adult wolf, probably a male, judging from the size of the tracks and the length of the guard hairs I'd collected and the distance he leaped before setting his paws down again. This was prior to DNA sampling, if they had that capability they probably would have been able to tell me a lot more about that wolf. He then looked up his records, and told me that he believed that the wolf I had seen was the alpha male of a pack they'd been trying to corner in order to place collars on them.

They were eventually able to do that, but a few years later, someone shot that alpha male.

And I have written about that, many times...that sighting was in the early 90's.

If I didn't have a camera, I'd mark the exact location, then RUN for a camera, and maybe some plaster for the tracks, and use my cell phone to call every expert I could find...

If the animal is indeed there, there is proof, somewhere...you just gotta look...

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
Did you read the talking points that he very kindly printed out for every one of us on his seminar?
I read the material and found it interesting. I also read some of Tom Carney's cougar articles and also found them interesting. I have nothing against him, but when I see a professional communicator like Tom Carney go berserk about a subject such as cougars, I believe that his objectivity has somehow been compromised. I was certainly not the only person in that room that thought Tom Carney went way over the line. I spoke with many people afterward that were shocked and outraged by his conduct. What was really surprising, and still continues to be so, are the people that saw nothing wrong with his conduct. I was sitting on the fence on this issue before that session, but since then I have done a little digging and tend to side with the MWC on most of this cougar debate. Time will tell if I'm on the right side.

[Linda G.]

Your posts on this thread don't indicate that you were "on the line" about this issue AT ALL prior to Carney's speech...you started this thread way back on January 28...Carney's speech was February 7, about a week later...it's been pretty obvious right from the beginning of this thread that you believe cougars exist in the wild in Michigan, and that you believe the DNR is covering something up...how come you haven't written anything on this subject?

[n.pike]

Off topic here a little bit........with all the talk about the hunters and hounds, has anyone with dogs gone to an area where there has been a sighting. Or just because they have not seen a cat in their particular area do they disbelieve the existence of cougars?

They quest for evidence and proof thereof has been beat to death, and houndsmen from this site have tossed their opinion into the fracas, but I look at it this way. I personally have seen a cat, and though I cant provide the live documentary of it with a DNR officer in the picture holding a placard with the time and place, along with a notary publics stamp, I absolutely could put a good hound on the track.
I know they exist, seen it with my own two reasonably sober eyes.
:D

[Linda G.]

The Glennie area has a ton of public land, and I'm sure if you made inquiries, you'd find a ton of hound hunters all around the entire region all the time. Our own Rob McCoy has a place in Glennie, and runs his beagles up there all the time. I don't know if a pack of beagles could tree a cougar or not, but I'm sure if they'd ever run into one around there, Rob would know about it...to find out who hunts with hounds in your area, make a couple of phone calls to any local conservation or sportsmans club, your local DNR office, the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, or the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. I'm sure any of them would be happy to provide you with any information they've got, and I'm sure that area is thoroughly hunted for coons, rabbits, bobcats, coyotes and bears all the time...

I know people who run the South Boardman area, where the cougar reportedly attacked the horses and livestock a year or so ago, all the time (2-3 times a week during the season) for coyotes and bobcats, as well as a number of trappers in that area. No cougar.

I also know a number of people who run Presque Isle County, where a large majority of cougar sightings have been reported. If you've ever participated in a bear or coyote hunt with hounds, you know what kind of ground those dogs cover...and still, no cougar.

I know that the majority of the members of the Michigan Bear Hunters Association are avidly interested in the subject of cougars, and if any of them had ever treed one, we'd know about it...

[boehr]

n.pike...Without the retoric in this thread. Let me be the first to tell you that I do believe that you have. I do not believe that you have mistakenly identified something else, I believe you if you said you seen a cougar in Michigan. Now, tell me this. Can you say with as much honesty is that it was definity a wild cougar and it was not a escaped pet or something of that nature?

I do get reports of cougars in my District. I do not make fun of those people, I believe what they tell me. After talking to some of them I can and do rule out that they are mistaken. Some I believe them 100% and compile the information. Sometimes we get lucky and it is very time consuming but my officers have been able to find 4 cougars in the last 10 years or so in my District from taking this information seriously, non of which were wild. The last two were just last month.

[FREEPOP]

n. pike, so basically she called you a liar.
It is obvious what her view is, that there are none and by her statement, it is easy to come to that conclusion.
She could've as easily said "highly unlikely" or something like that.

As for me n. pike, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :)

[Linda G.]

I never said anything about anybody being a liar...someone asked for information about how to get some hound hunters into the woods to look for signs of a cougar they've seen, and I tried to help them out with info, and for that I'm accused of calling someone a liar??

Try again...


ok, Freepop, I misunderstood n. pike's post...to which I say, if you have a hound that you can put on a cougar while in the process of legally hunting a coyote, which is the only season open at the moment, or during one of the season's next year, please do...be sure to do everything you can to document it, including have a couple of other witnesses with you, if at ALL possible. Photos, or at least photos of tracks, hair, any hard-copy proof you can provide, that can be looked at by the DNR. Like the wolverine guys did, do your best to keep the cougar treed or cornered and GET SOMEONE LIKE THE DNR, STATE POLICE or other professional out there as quickly as possible!!

I didn't call anyone a liar...see what I mean about outdoor writers being ridiculed all the time?

:D

[FREEPOP]

That word may have been a little strong. But yes, you did misunderstand. What you posted did, in no way agreed with him, more to the contrary.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
you believe the DNR is covering something up...how come you haven't written anything on this subject?
I started this thread because I was curious about the issue and was looking for information to form an opinion, which is what these forums are ideally suited for. Have you looked at the poll? Interesting to see that most people believe cougars are here despite the DNR spin. As for the DNR covering things up, I wouldn't be surprised. They sure managed to mislead the public and cover up plenty of facts to get the Michigan waters of Lake Erie closed this spring for walleye fishing. On that one the people of Michigan were mislead or downright lied to by DNR managers, biologists, commissioners and COs. That certainly wasn't the first time that the DNR behaved dishonestly. I certainly don't take anything that the DNR spins out as gospel. I have not written about Michigan's cougars because I am not a news reporter and I focus my writing more on what I do best, shooting big bucks and catching lots of big fish. Out of the 1000+ works I've had published, I've only done a few news pieces; the rest were pure hook and bullet.

[Linda G.]

Freepop-please explain what you mean by "what you posted did, in no way agreed with him, more to the contrary"...I don't understand??

Mike-I used to do all feature work, too. But you're not solely restricted to it, no one is. Write something on this and find someone who will buy it. I'm sure there's a lot of editors that would be interested. I thought that was your intent from the beginning-to find out what people thought for research for an article you were doing...I don't know anything about the DNR's stance on walleyes in Lake Erie, so won't comment, but just because you believe they were wrong on that issue is not a reason to write them off entirely as "spinmasters", is it?

If anything, I'm quite certain that's the label that most employees of the DNR have for outdoor writers...:D

n.pike-if you were trying to say in your post that you have actually treed a cougar with a hound, then I would ask you if you have any documentation of that...again, witnesses, (most people don't hunt with hounds alone, except maybe for coons?), photos, go back to the house, get a camera, return to the site, take photos of the tracks, anything you could get??

I'd believe you, too, but like boehr says, how do you know it was not an escaped pet? Boehr would be the first to tell you that apparently people are keeping cougars in captivity all over the state.

[FREEPOP]

Mike wrote:

Originally posted by n.pike
Off topic here a little bit........with all the talk about the hunters and hounds, has anyone with dogs gone to an area where there has been a sighting. Or just because they have not seen a cat in their particular area do they disbelieve the existence of cougars?

They quest for evidence and proof thereof has been beat to death, and houndsmen from this site have tossed their opinion into the fracas, but I look at it this way. I personally have seen a cat, and though I cant provide the live documentary of it with a DNR officer in the picture holding a placard with the time and place, along with a notary publics stamp, I absolutely could put a good hound on the track.
I know they exist, seen it with my own two reasonably sober eyes.
:D

You wrote:


[/list] The Glennie area has a ton of public land, and I'm sure if you made inquiries, you'd find a ton of hound hunters all around the entire region all the time. Our own Rob McCoy has a place in Glennie, and runs his beagles up there all the time. I don't know if a pack of beagles could tree a cougar or not, but I'm sure if they'd ever run into one around there, Rob would know about it...to find out who hunts with hounds in your area, make a couple of phone calls to any local conservation or sportsmans club, your local DNR office, the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, or the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. I'm sure any of them would be happy to provide you with any information they've got, and I'm sure that area is thoroughly hunted for coons, rabbits, bobcats, coyotes and bears all the time...

I know people who run the South Boardman area, where the cougar reportedly attacked the horses and livestock a year or so ago, all the time (2-3 times a week during the season) for coyotes and bobcats, as well as a number of trappers in that area. No cougar.

I also know a number of people who run Presque Isle County, where a large majority of cougar sightings have been reported. If you've ever participated in a bear or coyote hunt with hounds, you know what kind of ground those dogs cover...and still, no cougar.

I know that the majority of the members of the Michigan Bear Hunters Association are avidly interested in the subject of cougars, and if any of them had ever treed one, we'd know about it...

I don't think you have to read between the lines too hard to see that you didn't believe him, because hounds and/or houndspersons haven't supported his sighting.

Or you could say just plainly say that either you believe him or not.

[Linda G.]

I think I've clarified that I believed, upon first reading his post, that he was interested in finding hound hunters who would search for a cougar around his area...I just tried, again, to clarify that...

In fact, if he needs help, I know of two groups of hound hunters that would be happy to come down and help...

[FREEPOP]

Wonderful thing editing. I see you added this or maybe I overlooked it, but it was a ways after his initial post. No biggie.


I'd believe you, too, but like boehr says, how do you know it was not an escaped pet? Boehr would be the first to tell you that apparently people are keeping cougars in captivity all over the state.


I for one will remain objective as well as keep my eyes and ears open. I have been proven wrong too many times to say: never, always, and words of the like.

[n.pike]

Whew, I felt that emotion thru the screen.

As Boehr stated, they have seen 4 cougars, but they were released pets. That may be the case here. Some of you know the types of people in Glennie, it wouldnt suprise me.

I know what it was I saw, but I would not want my little rabbit-hunting beagle to tangle with it. Nor would I care to risk a fine rabbit hound of McCoys. I simply stated if there were a serious houndsmen wanting to try, I know where.

There is approx 6000 acres of uninhabited swamp and ridges stretching from five channels dam up past Mckinley, some of the most untouched area in the state. In my 33 years, I can count on one hand the amount of people I have seen hunting in there(other than deer season) Its just plain rough territory.

I am not a theorist or jokester about this, I am just curious. They are a magnificient animal, I'd like to know more about their existence. Pet or not, wouldnt it be cool to find one?

If someone has some hounds to run, I'll carry the camera!

[n.pike]

And buy the beer if we find one:D

[FREEPOP]

n. pike, just good discussion that keeps me from falling asleep at work.

As far as being cool finding one, pet or not, yes!

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by Linda G.
but just because you believe they were wrong on that issue is not a reason to write them off entirely as "spinmasters", is it?
I'll admit that after more than a dozen bad experienced with DNR staff last year and then to top it off having the Lake Erie fiasco jammed down our throats by some boneheads in the DNR really put me over the edge. At one point, I was so POed that I would have made Bill Moore look like the president of the DNR fan club. I even decided I'd never use the DNR as experts in my articles again. After getting over it (somewhat) I now realize that lumping all the DNR staff into the incompetent category was unfair. The DNR is made up of good and bad people just like any other entity. My attitude now is that I will only give good credit to DNR staff when they have demonstrated their professionalism to me. So far this year, of the eight DNR people I've had contact with, only three have been professionals while five were bad apples. I'm going to keep score and I'd be surprised if half of my contacts turn out good this year. I hope I'm wrong.

If I ever see a cougar or at least get some photos of cougar sign in Michigan, then I'll write a story on the subject. Until then, I'll leave the cougar stories to folks like you and others that are much better at reporting the outdoor news than I am.

[rockinmichigan]

I'm assuming I should call the DNR if I were to catch or find a couger right, or would I be better off calling the local police department? Never hurts to know that ahead of time just in case.

[FREEPOP]

I had a thought last night. Okay, so say that these cougars are pets that have escaped or are released. Would it be wrong to assume that an animal that was once domesticated, be quite easy to tree or bay with dogs? Wouldn't they have less fear of man and therefore be seen more readily and actually associate them with food, since they have been fed by them?

[rockinmichigan]

FREEPOP, it is possible I suppose, but cougers and animals like that aren't meant to be domesticated. I personally wouldn't keep one as a pet but some people would I guess. They still have the wildness and instinct to hunt and attack when they feel threatened. Look at that tiger that attacked that Sigmund and Freud, I think it was Freud that actually got attacked but that's an example. Tigers are like mountain lions are like alligators are like pythons are like any other predatorial wild animal. No matter if they're in a zoo or in a circus or in your neighbor's garage or in the swamp on the other side of the fence, no matter how much you train and house them, they can be nice one minute but the instinct is always there, even if you get them when they're newborns. So in otherwards, to make a long story short I wouldn't approach one unless I had a bow in one hand, a gun in the other hand, and a camera around my neck in this instance.

[Kevin Smith]

Hey N. Pike

My offer/request that I pm'd ya on Dec 1, 03 is still good.
I could be up there in a few hours with some hounds if there is a sighting or SIGNS found. If I couldn't make it promptly, I know several guys that would beat me there.

Winter is ideal for hunting cats. I have heard from people I consider credible claim to have seen the big cats, released/escaped or wild or otherwise during deer season. So far there is no winter sign of them in those areas. Nobody has been able to show me a track yet. I put the word out every winter as it would be the best for finding them. I hunt coyotes and bobcat in the deer yards and cedar swamps, which is exactly where lions would go - with the food. There would be tracks, and kills, and some other signs. Perhaps most don't know some of the signs when they see them. People activity is limited in these areas then too except for primarily houndsmen when the snow gets deep. Most of us strap on snowshoes and cover a lot of ground, but no lions.

Never knew there was a wolverine less than an hour from home either LOL I WANT to believe. Show me a track. Even an old track - I will put on snowshoes and walk it out until its jumped or fresh enough for the hounds to take. This can be tough in deep snow when there are lots of trails plowed thru deer yards but it can be done.

Sidenote - I remember a few years ago a guy's girlfriend got injured/killed by one of the African lions he had caged in the backyard - somewhere in lower MI (Saginaw/Bridgeport/??? can't remember)
I think a lot of critters get turned out, prolly a lot right after the Large Carnivore Act too.

[rockinmichigan]

Don't mean to change the subject or anything, but if you want to talk about a small world, my brother's name is Kevin Smith. Its amazing that with the amount of people in the metro Toledo/NW Ohio/Southeast Michigan area that there aren't more people with his or my name, but there are a couple other people with the same birthname as me, at least first and last name anyways. I would like to get into bobcat hunting, when's the next season start for 'em do you know? I've gotta get myself situated as far as ammo and all that fun stuff, but I'm hoping to do that this spring. Once again, didn't mean to change the subject, all apologies.

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by FREEPOP
I had a thought last night. Okay, so say that these cougars are pets that have escaped or are released. Would it be wrong to assume that an animal that was once domesticated, be quite easy to tree or bay with dogs? Wouldn't they have less fear of man and therefore be seen more readily and actually associate them with food, since they have been fed by them?

...(DETROIT FREE PRESS 11/20/03) the same thought occurred to me. In his account of the Eleanor Comings (Park Service volunteer) experience at Sleeping Bear, she related how the cat seemed to be more interested in satisfying its own curiosity of her than anything else. She never felt threatened but tells how it followed her for a bit, crossed the path in front of her, then paced her at 3 to 5 feet from the edge of the trail for about 20 minutes. That sure sounds like a cat thatÕs been around humans before.

IMHO it should be fairly obvious that we do have the critters here. I'm just waiting for proof that any of 'em are wild and if any of them are descendents of what was once an animal native to Michigan. MWC believes so based on its research but I would really like to see more research by more organizations.

[FREEPOP]

Landbarge, thanks for replying, I thought I was being ignored or that what I asked made to much sense. Thanks for the rest of the story, I wasn't aware of that.

Okay, another thought provoking question on a species thought to be non-existant in Michigan. Have they obtained hair or scat from the wolverine, and have they determined how long it's been here or where it came from? I've heard the theories, about garbage trucks and ice bridge, but has anything been confirmed?
Where is it now? Did it just vanish? Why hasn't it been seen again, as they run dogs there all the time?

[n.pike]

Kevin, we may have to do that. I was hunting the edge of the cedar swamp Saturday, saw a lot of bobcat tracks. I would like to get back in a few miles to the deer yards to look for a bigger cat.


What did happen to that wolverine? Wasn't the DNR going to capture it to find out its origin?

[LandBarge]

Originally posted by FREEPOP
Okay, another thought provoking question on a species thought to be non-existant in Michigan. Have they obtained hair or scat from the wolverine, and have they determined how long it's been here or where it came from? I've heard the theories, about garbage trucks and ice bridge, but has anything been confirmed?
Where is it now? Did it just vanish? Why hasn't it been seen again, as they run dogs there all the time?

FREEPOP,
I noticed a couple of recently started threads on the General Hunting board that deal with wolverines. Another animal that I have many questions about and will be checking out.
Regards,
LB

[rockinmichigan]

About wolverines, this might sound like the most insane reason why I believe they're still in Michigan, but here goes: I think that since the University of Michigan is still known as the Wolverines and not the Warblers is something to think about. Okay, on a serious note, I couldn't tell you about wolverines. I'm willing to believe that they're around. I almost buy cougers being in Michigan more then wolverines, but I wouldn't doubt wolverines still being in the state. I have no evidence, no nothing to back me up on either one, I'm just going on my personal theories. The reason why I believe cougers is in Michigan is like I said before, the prey is abundant for them, like deer, rabbits, squirrels, fish and birds. Other stuff too. I wouldn't doubt it one bit that cougers are around. Once again, I personally can't back it up but just theory and belief.

[Linda G.]

as I've said before on this, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs about the existence of a wild population of cougars in the state of Michigan. I fully believe that it's POSSIBLE that one or two may be running around some of the more remote areas of the UP, as I've said on a number of occasions and right here on this thread a while back...

But you need to look into the history of wolverines in this state before you talk about wolverines "still being" in this state...they have NEVER been documented as existing at all in Michigan-the last mention of them at all in history is, as was mentioned by someone else on this forum as being written in a school textbook somewhere, in 1836, when it was believed the people of Michigan fought like wolverines in the Battle of Toledo...another rumor is that we are called the Wolverine state because of the number of wolverine furs that passed through colonial Michigan trading posts from Canada...but wolverines have NEVER been found to exist in the wild at all in Mchigan.

[rockinmichigan]

I thought Michigan was called the Great Lake State? You know, like California is the Golden State. Shows you how much I know about Michigan, and I've been living here almost all my life.

[mike delp]

Linda,

Just a note on the wolverine: I've seen the preserved heart of the last wolverine that existed in Michigan....a zoo specimen. A good friend who is a field biologist has it on his desk...a good reminder to keep a clean heart.

Last summer's alleged cougar sighting was only about a mile from my place on the Boardman, but I've never seen one....lots of bobcats out that way. I'm really curious, but agree with you that someone would have seen one by now there is so much dwindling habitat.


yrs,

Mike

[Linda G.]

There's been a number of wolverines kept in captivity in Michigan over the years. Is that heart from the wolverine that was at the TC zoo, Mike? I know it died a few years back, wondered what they did with it, I figured one of the taxidermists around here had it, but never thought about what they might do with the internal organs...

[mike delp]

Linda,

I might be mistaken in my post, then. I thought it belonged to an animal that died years ago...but if there was one in T.C. that would negate my post....heh....

yrs,

Mike

[Linda G.]

I'm not sure when the TC wolverine died...the last time I saw it was probably at least 10 years ago, tho...so that heart could well be from the TC wolverine. They had it a long time, but you could never get a good look at it, in those days, they let you go into the buildings and see their nests from the inside, and he spent all of his time in the summer when the zoo was open inside the log they had for him as a nest. Asleep 90% of the time.

[Hamilton Reef]

Linda,
I was hoping I might see you at the Grand Rapids Sport Fishing Show this evening, but you were not at the MON booth. Will have to bs about cougars at another time.

[rockinmichigan]

How long is the Grand Rapids Sport Fishing Show lasting? Was it last night only?

[Hamilton Reef]

http://www.showspan.com/gcs/index.html
There is a nice playful cougar mount in the taxidermy show area.

[Linda G.]

unfortunately, Tom, I don't work the GR show anymore-it's been scheduled the same weekend as the TC show for the last few years, so I'm running the MON booth there. I'll be there all weekend, from 3 pm today until 5 pm Sunday.

C'mon up and say howdy...the TC show is the best little show in the state. Room to actually walk around, and chances to actually talk to the vendors...

Traverse City Hunt/Fish Expo (http://www.tchuntfishexpo.com)

[rockinmichigan]

I'm checking out both links as we speak, pretty interesting stuff. I'm down here in Southeast Michigan, so I don't know what the chances are of me being able to make it to either Grand Rapids or Traverse City this weekend, but perhaps next year I'll be there for sure.

[DuckDog]

We saw a cougar during the second week in July last year. It crossed the road in about 30 yards in front of us. This was on M-123 about 20 minutes North of the bridge. It was almost as long as the highway lane was wide. It had a very long tail, and looked exactly like a cougar. There is no way that this was a bobcat, lynx, or bear as they all have short tails, and are much smaller. This animal was seen in the evening, but during daylight. We were really stunned by the sighting, and actually pulled over to the side of the road to calm down and talk about it. We could see it clear enough to identify it as a cougar. There was not enough time for the camera, and we didn't report the sighting to anyone. I guess it could be wild, or released, there is no way to tell, except that it was not wearing a collar. I have heard about poachers paying to have captive cougars being released in Michigan to hunt with dogs.

You guys can call me a liar, but I know what we saw.
DuckDog

[Kevin Smith]

duckdog

".....I have heard about poachers paying to have captive cougars being released in Michigan to hunt with dogs...."


LMAO I have not heard that one! LMAO some more. The things that city-ots (cidiots?) come up with and spread around.

Not poking anything at you duckdog! That is just a new one to me and I found it hilarious. Don't take it personal - I know you didn't come up that you just heard it.




:D

[DuckDog]

Kevin,
An avid houndsman told me about this.

[Trophy Specialist]

I saw a movie a while back called Second Hand Lion (I think). It was a great movie where these two colorful guys bought a lion with the intention of turning it loose so they could hunt it. I wouldn't put anthing past some people. Basically, if you think of something stupid, then someones probably already done it. Anybody seen the new Darwin awards yet?

[Ferg]

the Paper Lion once - but that was different - :D


ferg....
way different....

:)

[Trophy Specialist]

Here's a link to the movie http://www.secondhandlions.com/
I stongly recomend renting it.

The one thing that bothers me though about the "released pet cougar theory" is that cougar sightings in Michigan date back many years. It's hard to imagine that people have keep releasing pet cougars into the wild for decades. Anther thing that puzzles me: If cougars are released into the wild and they go forth and multiply, then would those cats qualify for endangered species protection or would they just be considered feral cats? Exactly what is a truely wild cougar?

[Kevin Smith]

Secondhand Lions - that was a great movie, got it for the kids and wife and I enjoyed it too. Good family movie.


Duckdog - I find that hard to believe for many reasons, but yes people can and will do about anything. Maybe an isolated incident? Whatever the case may be - it is still pretty dang funny to me. The cost involved, the risk, getting people to do it, obtaining the cat, transporting the cat for release and then home, etc. and then NOT catching it LMAO Should just pay the 3500 bucks for a guide out west to bag a legit one without all the hassle, cost, risk etc. I think either a whole bunch of idiots found each other, or somebody is pulling your leg.

Darwin Awards are great....reminds me of the time I was at a Burger King in Bridgeport. I saw a young male employee wrestling one of those heavy stone/concrete trash containers across the lot. Struck me as odd and difficult.
While waiting in line another employee said to the manager "somebody gots ta talk ta Duane. He out 'der takin' da whoooole trash can to da dumpsta' insteada' just pullin out da bags." The excited local dialect just added to the comedy. The whole place cracked up and a sheepish looking Duane came in a few minutes later. :D :D

[rockinmichigan]

Kevin, I personally ain't surprised about duckdog's story. Surely not a common stunt, I'm sure there is a couple idiots out there that would actually do just that, taking the lions to help hunt. I'd prefer dogs though, cougers have the better chance of turning on you then your dog.

[DuckDog]

I really doubt that very many people would try "put and take" lion hunting. But I wouldn't be suprised if someone has done it, and talked about it enough to get the story going.

We had black bear eating out of bird feeders in Clarkston, MI. That is Oakland County. It made its way to Caseville soon after. Now they have seen the wolverine in Huron county. I wouldn't be suprised at all if there are wild lions in Michigan. Look at how the coyote range has expanded in Southeast Michigan. They have even sighted elk in Southern Michigan.

I sure hope that the lions in Michigan are not used as political tool to limit recreational access to Federal lands. The anti-hunters would love to see large tracts closed to hunting, and even any access at all, to protect the Michigan mountain lion.

Even without something like a lion refuge, it looks like the current trend on federal lands, and some state areas is to close roads and trails, thereby limiting access to large tracts of land. Many people in Michigan are handicapped and cannot walk 3 miles, or even 1/4 mile to hunt or fish. When access roads are closed it really limits the opportunities for us.

Maybe it is better for the sportsman of Michigan if the "wild or released" lion question remain a mystery.

[KEN C]

I have never heard of a black bear in Clarkston? When was this 1900. Come on!!!!! There are some tall tales being told here.

[DuckDog]

This happened in June of 1998. The bear was spotted in Clarkston, and they followed it to Caseville where they had to capture it because it was in downtown Caseville. It was on the TV news, and I think it might have been on Michigan Outdoors.

Here is what the DNR Law Report websites said:

"CO Greg Drogowski assisted District 11 officer running down a bear trap and setting it for the Clarkston bear."

http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/law/ReportWeekDetail.asp?Week=6/7/1998

"
The "bear on a mission" along the east side of the state dominated the headlines in the district over the past week as it worked its way through Sanilac County all the way up to Port Austin. It appears to be traveling at a pace of about 12 miles per day. Concerned that it may start back down the west side of the "thumb" towards Bay City, area conservation officers are attempting to set traps in its path. So far the bear's greatest sin has been the sampling of area bird feeders. "CO Schwiderson was unsuccessful with bear trapping attempt in Lapeer County. The bear appears to be headed north and was last reported in Sanilac County. "

http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/law/ReportWeekDetail.asp?Week=6/14/1998

"This past week the notorious bear was finally captured while it was touring downtown Caseville. This capture and the tracking of its movements generated a lot of interest and press."

"A bear has been sited in northern Muskegon County. Sgt. Scott Wilk did a TV interview over the weekend on this bear. "

"This must be the year of the bear in southern Michigan. CO Bob McHolme answered a RAP Complaint of bear sighting in a field at the intersection of I-69 and I-94. CO McHolme did not confirm the sighting."


http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/law/ReportWeekDetail.asp?Week=6/21/1998

:)

[boehr]

The bear in Caseville was true. It was being watched (not literally) as it traveled from bear country to the south and was head back north but it more or less got trapped in Huron County (3-sides water). The bear in Muskegon was not that far from regular bear country and the bear at 69 & 94 were three of those wooded cut outs (mama and two cubs) in a field, there were no bear at 69 & 94.

[rockinmichigan]

Interesting stuff guys, I think I did hear about the bear in Clarkston back then but hadn't heard anything about it since then. I must say, some of the most interesting stuff I've read on forums has been right here on this website. Keep it up mates :D

[FREEPOP]

From the DNR's weekly reports:

CO Jeff Robinette reports that with assistance from Cass County Animal Control, the two cougars located in a subject's possession have been removed and transported to Minnesota.

[rockinmichigan]

I'm wondering how commonn cougers are in Minnesota and Wisconsin, anybody happen to know?

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by rockinmichigan
I'm wondering how commonn cougers are in Minnesota and Wisconsin, anybody happen to know?
Like Michigan, those states get lots of reports of cougars. The MN DNR does acknowlage that they exist there.

[Hamilton Reef]

Again, we can keep checking the Eastern Cougar Network for the "Breaking News" link. Minnesota and the other states are covered. http://www.easterncougarnet.org/

[Hamilton Reef]

THE EASTERN COUGAR CONFERENCE 2004
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/eastern_cougar_conference_2004.htm

[KEN C]

By Bill Parker
Editor
Sault Ste Marie, Mich. — There are no cougars in Michigan.


That’s the word from some avid houndsmen who spend their hunting seasons running black bears, bobcats, and coyotes throughout the Upper Peninsula.


The Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation released a report last year by Dr. Patrick Rusz that stated there are cougars in Michigan and possibly a small breeding population.


Respected houndsmen who spend upwards of 200 days a year training and hunting their hounds, scoff at such remarks. “We hunt that whole area up by Seul Point, where they did their study, and there are no cougars there,” says John Cryderman of Sault Ste. Marie, a hard-core houndsman who guides for bobcats, bears and coyotes. “I’ve been hunting bobcats and bears my whole life, and my granddad did it, too, and he never saw any (mountain) lions, either.”


Cryderman feels “there are too many good houndsmen” running their dogs across the U.P during the fall and winter for someone not have encountered a cougar, or at least a hot track.


“(Cougars) are not homebodies. They travel,” Cryderman says. “Anyone who knows lions will tell you, when they hit a two-track out west they walk right down it. Wolves do the same thing. Someone running their dogs would have crossed a track. They’re just not there.”


Kewadin’s Mel Guntzviller is another avid houndsman and trapper who disputes the cougar claim.
A life-long trapper, Guntzviller made a living by trapping predators in seven states for 30 years. He also has friends who are government trappers in California, who are called in to remove nuisance animals.


“I’ve been around a lot of lions in California,” Guntzviller said. “I’ve been in on depredation hunts and had them every day on my trap lines killing coyotes, bobcats, and fox. You just can’t mistake a lion track, especially in the snow.”


In the Upper Peninsula, deer “yard up” in cedar swamps in the winter when the snow gets too deep for them to graze in open fields and forest edges. According to Guntzviller, if there were cougars in Michigan they, too, would head for these deer yards to feed in the winter.


“A lion is a big game animal. They don’t eat rabbits and red squirrels, they eat deer,” Guntzviller says. “During the winter in the U.P., the deer are in the cedar swamps. That’s where houndsmen spend all their time in the winter, too — running the cedar swamps chasing (bob)cats and coyotes. If they were in there, somebody would run one, but they’re just not there.”


Cryderman, who hunts black bears in California and has encountered many cougars and cougar tracks over the years, feels the MWHF study falls short of proving there are cougars in Michigan. “That whole study is based on one nine-inch (scat). They never found a lion,” he said. “We have 280 wolves in the Upper Peninsula and they get hit by cars, and deer hunters kill wolves every year. Where are the lions? Where are the dead ones?”
Cryderman says he’ll readily admit he was wrong if someone ever comes up with an actual cougar, but until then he, like many others, dispute the findings of the study.


“I’d be willing to travel anywhere in the state to run a track, but it better be a cougar track,” Cryderman says. “If not, they better put me up in a hotel.”

[KEN C]

Woods-n-Water News
January 2004
Michigan Cougars: The Final Word—For Now
By Tom Carney

Recent revelations from out-of-state experts invite a closer scrutiny of all claims made by the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy over the past two years.

The Conservancy professes to have proven that a “wild, remnant, breeding population” of cougars (pumas, mountain lions, panthers) roams the state’s two peninsulas.

But to cast a more accurate light on their claims, we need to travel back to October 2001. A report from the Wyoming Game and Fish Laboratory to the Conservancy (formerly the Michigan Wildlife Habitat Foundation) on October 10 concluded that 8 of 13 samples of scat examined at the lab “came from an animal in the Feline Family, most probably a mountain lion.”

Subsequently, an October 29 memorandum from Dee Dee Hawk, Forensic Specialist at the lab to Dr. Pat Rusz, the Director of Wildlife Programs for the Conservancy, said, “I would like to assure you the results are reliable. We are confident in the conclusions made in this lab . . .”

Even so, on the same date, the Conservancy issued a press release stating, in part, that the group had “found indisputable physical evidence that” cougars “inhabit some remote parts of Michigan.”

The primary evidence: “eight droppings (feces) that DNA analysis by the Wyoming Game and Fish Laboratory verified as cougar scat.”

By November 1, 2001, the story began appearing in publications such as The New York Times, The Detroit Free Press, and The Traverse City Record Eagle. The Associated Press reported the story; The Detroit News and The Grand Rapids Press picked it up. In most cases, adjectives like irrefutable and conclusive accompanied the word evidence.

But that’s not what her lab reported, said Hawk recently. “The initial results looked like they were going to come out cougar. We needed confirmatory testing. We told the Conservancy that we could not confirm it and handed it off to Central Michigan.”

Granted, Dr. Brad Swanson at Central Michigan University has since identified a few scat samples—among which might or might not be some of the Wyoming group—as coming from cougar. But he didn’t begin testing until late summer 2002, and though he gave preliminary results to the Conservancy as he went along, he didn’t prepare his report until November 2002. By then, the Conservancy had gained a year’s head start with its own version of the Wyoming test results.

The problem arises from the Conservancy’s use of the phrases indisputable physical evidence and verified as cougar scat. Both of these contradict the Wyoming report that went only so far as to say the scat “most probably” came from cougar.

But there’s more.

The Detroit Free Press of November 15, 2001, quotes Rusz: “Non-scientists probably don't understand the incredible power of the new DNA testing methods.”

We non-scientists, however, can easily understand the implications of the Wyoming DNA analyses if we first compare researchers to dairy farmers. Think of the test sample (tissue, hair, scat) as a cow. The DNA that is extracted from the sample is the milk. Subjecting the DNA to different tests generates different markers, just as subjecting the milk to different processes yields items like butter, ice cream, or cheese.

A discussion of the scat collected by Rusz brings four different tests into play. Each answers a different question:

1. What kind of animal deposited the scat?
2. If Feline, then did it come from a cougar?
3. If cougar, then what was the origin of its mother: North American (NA) or South American (SA); if DNA shows SA genotypes, the cat most likely comes from captive stock, if NA the cat likely (but not positively) comes from wild;
4. How many individual animals dropped the scat?

Notice the lab report indicated that the folks in Wyoming only performed Test #1. The Conservancy’s press release clearly implies positive results to Test #2.

By press time for this article, December 2003, Swanson himself had not gone beyond Test #2, Remarkably, though, for over two years the Conservancy had implied the Wyoming lab had also conducted Test #3: From The New York Times, December 23, 2001: “DNA analysis of the scat samples Rusz found in the Upper Peninsula did not show any of the South American genotypes. . .”

An August 2002 edition of “The Highlands Voice,” the newsletter for the West Virginia Highlands Conservancy, states unequivocally, “DNA of scats from Michigan’s Upper Peninsula is of the North American type, leading Patrick Rusz to conclude that Michigan cougars are probably natives.”

Nearly a full year after Wyoming had reported inconclusive results for Test #1, Rusz told the October 6, 2002, Detroit News, “The Wyoming Fish & Game Laboratory in Laramie, and Central Michigan University, have analyzed many scat samples and much of it was determined to be from cougars. And, to clarify matters, the animals were North American cougars.”

“We never even got close to” Test #3, said Dee Dee Hawk. “We couldn’t even prove for sure that it was cougar.” She said she told Rusz in a phone call “that we did not have the time or the money to continue to try and make this type of analysis work, and therefore I could not confirm that any of the samples were mountain lion in origin.”

Making matters worse, in that same October 29, 2001, press release, the Conservancy introduced the idea that photographs of “cat-killed deer,” had been reviewed by “nationally –known cougar expert Harley Shaw, of New Mexico, a former cougar research specialist for the Arizona Game and Fish Department.”

By November 2, the AP and The Traverse City Record Eagle reported the Conservancy’s assertion that Shaw had determined the photographs showed scenes “consistent with a cougar deer kill in every aspect and detail.”

The problem with this is that Harley Shaw himself, recently stated, “I do not remember confirming any kills as definitely cougar.”

Moreover, he added, “I requested that my name not be used in conjunction with the Conservancy work, and I really don't want to get entangled with that issue any further.”

He acknowledged that his experience with the Conservancy had been similar to Dee Dee Hawk’s.

Says Hawk, “One of the reasons we distanced ourselves from Rusz is he had no scientific objectivity. He had an end-goal in mind.”

She carefully weighed the effect of her words for a few moments, and then decided to let them stand.

“I am a scientist and I have to go in with an open mind, and wherever the science leads you that’s where you have to go. You can’t have an end point determined and try to make the science get you there.”

For a glimpse at what she was talking about, we can turn, once more, to the October 29 press release. The Conservancy “launched its field work in May” it says, and the previous March the Conservancy had “issued a 66-page report that concluded cougars roam our state. The recent field studies prove that thesis” (emphasis added).

By its own admission, therefore, the Conservancy determined its conclusion prior to conducting any type of experimentation, and simply put, that’s not how science works.

Applied science requires the careful study of problems and testing of theories before arriving at conclusions. It has to be as precise and exact as possible. “Close enough” isn’t “good enough.”

According to a story in Traverse magazine from January 2002 Rusz “views himself as a man of science,” trained to be skeptical. These days, though, he minimizes the importance of that quality.

“There’s a fine line between healthy, scientific skepticism and being just plain stupid,” he proclaimed in Grayling last October to the Michigan chapter of The Wildlife Society (TWS), an organization of wildlife professionals.

He ridiculed the chief requirement for good science—the kind of support that can withstand rigorous skepticism and challenges from one’s peers—dismissing it as “some of our profession’s lovely B.S.”

Rusz breathed life into his disdain with the evidence he offered the Michigan TWS.

In order to determine that three white-tailed deer carcasses he had located “matched cougar feeding signs to a ‘T,’” Rusz observed the feeding habits of captive cougars.

“The animals did exactly what they were supposed to do, according to the books. Exactly how it’s done by cougars throughout the world,” he said.

Wild cougars had stashed the carcasses, he concluded, despite another possibility suggested by the results of those same observations: the kills could have been made by once-captive cats.

Also, inconceivably, the only proof he offered for the contention that Michigan cougars are breeding was some reports he allegedly received from people who said they had observed cubs. This despite the fact that hearsay evidence doesn’t hold up in science, in court, anywhere.

“‘Personal observations’ and ‘personal communications’ do not carry much weight,” said Dr. Gary Roloff, Senior Ecological Specialist with Boise Cascade and President of the Michigan TWS at the time of Rusz’s presentation. “I haven’t ever read a scientific article based only on these types of data.”

As part of his presentation, Rusz likes to mention a cougar skull found a couple years ago in Chippewa County. He described it as having, “the tooth wear of a 2-year-old, wild cougar,” then added, “despite anything you heard in newspapers that they were of a captive cat.”

Forget newspapers! Check out the actual report that came from the University of Michigan: “Given the animal’s apparent age, we were surprised at how unworn the animal’s cheekteeth were . . . This suggests to us (but certainly does not prove) that the animal may have been an escaped captive.”

Rusz also contradicted other claims previously made by the Conservancy itself.

In news stories, the Conservancy’s Executive Director Dennis Fijalkowski has been quoted as saying, “Based on sighting data, there are now between 50 and 80 cougars in Michigan.” Yet Rusz told TWS the 50-80 is a number “I just pulled out of my (hat).” He blamed journalists who kept asking him for numbers and “it got to a point where I shot out an estimate and everyone latched on to that.”

In presentations, Fijalkowski has given a simple reason no cougars have been treed by hunters running their dogs on bobcat or coyotes: Michigan’s hounds are incapable of catching the scent of a cougar. Yet Rusz told TWS, Michigan “bobcat hunters have treed a lion. Coon hunters have treed a cougar.”

Addressing the Native American Fish and Wildlife Society in Traverse City on May 20, 2003, Fijalkowski announced the Conservancy had located a breeding population of cougars near Three Rivers in extreme southern Michigan. The “Michi-ana” group he called them since they, ostensibly, criss-cross the Michigan/Indiana state line regularly. Last October, though, while naming areas in the state where cougars have allegedly established themselves, Rusz didn’t mention the Michi-ana group at all.

One way to summarize all this is that people who want to believe the Conservancy has proven its contentions will believe, no matter what. Those who doubt the claims will doubt, no matter what. But what about those in the middle, the uncertain majority?

The evidence speaks for itself.

=30=

[rockinmichigan]

I'll have to check out MN DNR's website. I'm interested in seeing if cougers are endangered there or not.

[LandBarge]

near Ely, MN on 2/11 according to this 3/25/04 article.

Gist of the story: The horse survived the initial attack but was seriously injured with numerous puncture wounds to the neck. Owners didn't realize what had happened until the horse did not come down for feeding late afternoon and by then infection had set in and was rapidly spreading. After several days of antibiotics and removing infected tissue, the vet decided that the horse would never regain use of its neck and the decision was made to put the animal down.

http://www.timberjay.com/current.php?article=787

[Kevin Smith]

Originally posted by KEN C
By Bill Parker
Editor
Sault Ste Marie, Mich. — There are no cougars in Michigan.



....................
Respected houndsmen who spend upwards of 200 days a year training and hunting their hounds, scoff at such remarks. “We hunt that whole area up by Seul Point, where they did their study, and there are no cougars there,” says John Cryderman of Sault Ste. Marie, a hard-core houndsman who guides for bobcats, bears and coyotes. “I’ve been hunting bobcats and bears my whole life, and my granddad did it, too, and he never saw any (mountain) lions, either.”


Cryderman feels “there are too many good houndsmen” running their dogs across the U.P during the fall and winter for someone not have encountered a cougar, or at least a hot track.


“(Cougars) are not homebodies. They travel,” Cryderman says. “Anyone who knows lions will tell you, when they hit a two-track out west they walk right down it. Wolves do the same thing. Someone running their dogs would have crossed a track. They’re just not there.”


Kewadin’s Mel Guntzviller is another avid houndsman and trapper who disputes the cougar claim.
A life-long trapper, Guntzviller made a living by trapping predators in seven states for 30 years. He also has friends who are government trappers in California, who are called in to remove nuisance animals.


“I’ve been around a lot of lions in California,” Guntzviller said. “I’ve been in on depredation hunts and had them every day on my trap lines killing coyotes, bobcats, and fox. You just can’t mistake a lion track, especially in the snow.”


In the Upper Peninsula, deer “yard up” in cedar swamps in the winter when the snow gets too deep for them to graze in open fields and forest edges. According to Guntzviller, if there were cougars in Michigan they, too, would head for these deer yards to feed in the winter.

“A lion is a big game animal. They don’t eat rabbits and red squirrels, they eat deer,” Guntzviller says. “During the winter in the U.P., the deer are in the cedar swamps. That’s where houndsmen spend all their time in the winter, too — running the cedar swamps chasing (bob)cats and coyotes. If they were in there, somebody would run one, but they’re just not there.”

Cryderman, who hunts black bears in California and has encountered many cougars and cougar tracks over the years, feels the MWHF study falls short of proving there are cougars in Michigan. “That whole study is based on one nine-inch (scat). They never found a lion,” he said. “We have 280 wolves in the Upper Peninsula and they get hit by cars, and deer hunters kill wolves every year. Where are the lions? Where are the dead ones?”
Cryderman says he’ll readily admit he was wrong if someone ever comes up with an actual cougar, but until then he, like many others, dispute the findings of the study.

“I’d be willing to travel anywhere in the state to run a track, but it better be a cougar track,” Cryderman says. “If not, they better put me up in a hotel.”


I have hunted with both Cryderman and Guntzviller a few times.
Several years ago I went to California with them for a week when they were hunting bear and Mel was going to come home thru some other states hunting lion.
We saw lion tracks every day, a good dog got really cut up by a lion on that trip also. These guys are top notch and the reason I got started with hounds.
We have had this lion discussion a few times....we all have the same conclusion that they just aren't here or we would be catching them.

[rockinmichigan]

I agree on the fact that there hasn't been any caught or found dead. Just the eyewitness accounts here and there, but no pictures or whatever. I still wouldn't doubt that there's a few roaming the state, but just a hunch and that's all.

[Trophy Specialist]

Originally posted by rockinmichigan
but no pictures or whatever.
There are pictures and video of cougars in Michigan.

[rockinmichigan]

Are there? If so, the better proof would be the actual couger, dead or alive, being brought in. But if there's photos and video then its better then nothing.

[Hamilton Reef]

With the computer programs available today it is easy to doctor and alter photos/videos to show any bigfoot purple people eater walking with a cougar, or the leash can be drawn out as they do with the cables that allow actors to fly through the air.

The only exceptions allowed would be another wolverine photo incident with several individuals at the same time or a dead cat for complete autopsy examination. :rolleyes:

[rockinmichigan]

I was thinking the same thing Hamilton Reef, that's why you'd be better off calling the DNR on the spot when you come across a dead one or trapped, etc.

[Ferg]

Max Holden was key player in plover effort
By MARLA MCMACKIN
Record-Eagle staff writer


EMPIRE - Max Holden spends a lot of time on the trails that wind through Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore, many of which he helped design.
But after 40 years with the National Park Service - 27 managing the natural resources at Sleeping Bear - Holden says he is ready to hang up his ranger hat.
"The parts I love, I'll still hang on to, the beaches, hiking in the forest," he said. "I'm not letting go of that. I certainly plan on spending a lot of time at the park."
Holden's career with the National Park Service began in the 1960s when he signed on as a ranger at Isle Royal National Park.
After various research and planning posts that followed, Holden jumped at the chance to transfer to Sleeping Bear when a natural resources management position opened in 1977.
"I had come to the area before and fell in love with it," the Jackson native and University of Michigan graduate said. "It was so rich in resources, the scenery is just spectacular and you have the comforts of the Traverse City area. It's an ideal place to be."
Park superintendent Dusty Shultz said Holden has been a compelling force at the park through its first management plan, establishing a relationship with the state Department of Natural Resources to control the white-tailed deer population on North Manitou Island and restoring habitat for the endangered piping plover.
"He has perhaps done more to protect the park's resources than any other individual employee," she said. "He's a great worker and he'll be missed."
Holden said he takes pride in being part of a successful effort to restore the island's vegetation and help the piping plover again thrive in the park.
The bird's numbers were down to only 12 pair in the Great Lakes region in 1986, he said, but has rebounded to 50 pair, most of them in Michigan.
"Sleeping Bear has about 13 pair now," Holden said. "There's a long way to go, but it's a remarkable beginning to their recovery."
While the park drew recent attention for cougar sightings, Holden said he has not seen one of the big cats in all the years he roamed the trails.
"We've had lots of reports and some seem very real, very credible," he said. "Others are just people who get carried away with maybe wanting to see one."
Holden doesn't know what to make of the sightings, but said the park faces a number of challenges if the reports are true, such as determining where the cats come from and how to deal with their presence.
But on April 3, Holden will leave those questions to other park personnel so he can travel and spend more time with his dog, Mosey.
Along with Holden's retirement, the National Park Service also noted length of service awards for Shultz and Leigh Evans, each with 30 years of service, and Tom Davison, Kim Mann, Tom Mountz and Kym Mukavetz, who celebrate 20 years with the parks service



26 years walking around SB - no sightings.....

ferg....

[Bucktail Butch]

Holden doesn't know what to make of the sightings, but said the park faces a number of challenges if the reports are true, such as determining where the cats come from and how to deal with their presence

As I have posted before, you can count on the Park Service to use the cougar uproar to their advantage in their ongoing quest for the Wilderness designation, the closing of thousands of acres of public land to all but the hardiest hikers and the altering of existing plantlife, animals and fish within the park. That's how they'll deal with their presence, regardless of where they come from, if they can convince enough people in decision making positions that the cougars really exist.
Personally, if the cougars should prove to be real, I hope they eat all the piping plovers and wipe their *****e$ with pitcher thistles. Maybe that will resolve a lot of issues of threatened and endangered species.

[Utahan]

I am almost kicking myself for getting envolved in this debate, and I will be the first to say that I haven't read the whole thing, seven pages is just too much for me.

However, has anyone brought up the pamphelt going around about cougars in MI? Who put this out? I was in the Isabella county animal shelter the other week, and there was a copy hanging on the bulletin board.

Utahan

[Linda G.]

Their propaganda, er, brochure on the cougar has been out since last fall. I first saw it in, of all places, Cabela's...

They're also looking for cougar trackers, too, folks, for $75 a pop for their "training sessions"-only $50 if you're already a member of MWC...;) :rolleyes:

[Randy Kidd]

I have to admit I needed proof that there were cougars in Michigan, then I had lunch with the Easter bunny and he told me that those damn cats have been chasing him around for years now, Had to beat them off with his basket more than once. He'd been a goner once for sure until Mighty mouse swooped in and carried him to safety.. I now believe:D :D

Maybe;)

[rockinmichigan]

Tell Mighty Mouse that his grandpa Mickey called, he wants his cheese back.

[eyemaster]

I know for a fact there are big cats in michigan, but the dnr keeps saying there are not. I have only seen two cats in the wild and both where in curtis area on m-28 just before 421. The reason I say this is fact is I went to lake state for wildlife bio as a major. I know how to indentify wildlife, and Isaw them w/my own two eye. I have 20/15 vision thats better than 20/20. so people dont let them fool you they are there and can be dangerous

[rockinmichigan]

I tell you what I've heard and what I've been told on Toledo's ABC TV station, WTVG Channel 13 website, http://www.13abc.com is that there was a mother and a couple of cubs seen in Ottawa Lake, MI in Monroe County. I haven't seen the article or whatever, but I guess there is photos and video of it. I don't know if its still there though, I haven't had a lot of time to go there, or even if its true because I've only heard it from one person and I don't watch the local TV stations that much, but I guess the cats were seen along the MI-OH border around Sylvania, OH and Ottawa Lake, MI. Supposedly it was on farmland, away from any livestock and stuff, but I'd have to see if its still somewhere on the site or on any other site.

[KEN C]

There on the move again, must be starting there migration north for deer season. :lol:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3644587/detail.html
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3651751/detail.html

[boehr]

No, not migrating to the north but because it is getting close to hunting seasons they migrate into the cities where there is no hunting. :lol: I personally do not doubt one was seen but I do not believe it was a "wild" cougar. I think one being seen in areas like Sterling Hgts., has much more credibility that there are many pet cougars that get loose for a short period from their owners. :bash:

[Linda G.]

a pet cougar being legally kept in northern Michigan...she's one of just a few left from about 60-70 about 5-10 years ago, according to a veterinarian who is well known with pet cougar fans as a big cat vet...I took this, and two rolls of other very good photos of her, last Monday, at less than 2 feet away...so when the MWC says there are about 80 cougars in Michigan, they're probably about right, except for one thing- they're not wild cougars.

Nina was born and raised in captivity in Michigan.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/520/3255Nina2.jpg

[SR-Mechead]

[QUOTE=Trophy Specialist]There has been a lot of press both ways in recent month, so what do you think; Do wild cougars live in Michigan?

Now after 15 pages of bashing one another ,the question is are there wild cougars in Michigan. About a month ago the dnr was flying planes very low in Wis and when we I asked at the bait shop what was going on they said a cougar was spotted in the area. Now there are no fences at the border of Mich and Wis. So are there big cats .For those of you that saw them good for you,and for those of you that say there are not cougars in Mich get outdoors more.

[rockinmichigan]

I always say "Why not?" when it comes to cougers being in Michigan, because there's more then enough food for them. Hell, we have more deer then we know what to do with, plenty of fields, wooded areas, and lakes/ponds/streams/rivers, and farms that have big food for them-cattle, horses, etc. There's also small food sources like rabbits, squirrels, turkeys, and other birds. I don't think there's a lot roaming around, all it takes is a couple or a few to cross the Wisconsin border into Michigan or somebody to let pet cougers free into the wild.

[ESOX]

I saw a cougar up at Linda G's place last week. Trout saw it too. It was the tawny phase of the pygmy cougar. It looked real cool in that rhinestone collar too........

Never knew cougars would be pursued by a coyote, but this one had a 'yote hot on it's trail. ;)

[KEN C]

I wish somebody would hit one with there car, so we can find the owners of these lost pets
http://www.lenconnect.com/articles/2004/08/15/news/news03.txt

[Linda G.]

interesting...that's what sort of what I thought...by the way, folks, for many years there was a place on US 2 near St. Ignace in the UP called "Cougar Acres"-they bred and sold cougar kittens, legally, until 1999.

Interesting news from the Eastern Cougar Network, a very reputable organization of scientists and state game agency and university professionals...

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/news.htm

[Swamper]

Cougars are like stories about Bigfoot, UFOs, monsters, and others...they give us a mythology about the outdoors that excite us. I have seen some huge house cats that have gone wild and that's what has happened here. Next will be lions, and tigers, and bears, oh my....

I don't doubt the intentions of what some have reportedly sighted, but let's get real folks. We can put a man on the moon, create a nuclear bomb, make airplanes fly, and make computers think, but we cannot catch a cougar???? We all feel "good" knowing there is something unknown and mysterious out there, but we all deep down know cougars are right there with Bigfoot, tooth fairy, easter bunny, etc.

Was there a 2nd shooter on the hill in Dallas?

Swamper

[rockinmichigan]

Well Swamper, I think you're both right and wrong on your post. I think you're right when you say that we can't catch a couger, but can put a man on the moon, etc. But I disagree with you on putting the couger in the same class as Bigfoot, the tooth fairy, etc. Two points on that, at least the tooth fairy, the boogie monster, and that sort of thing is mythology. Elvis really is dead, and so is Jim Morrison. Those are facts, but what I don't think are facts is that there is absolutely positively no couger anywhere in the state of Michigan. If there is, and people actually did catch a wild couger that was never a pet and never in captivity do you know how hairy things would get here? Personally speaking, I have a nice shiney quarter that places like Cabela's, Gander Mountain and the like will be even more packed then they all ready are with hunters wanting the best gear to track down that elusive couger. I do think they are in Michigan,but I don't think there's many. They have them in Minnesota, and it wouldn't take much for them to chase deer from northern Minnesota into the U.P. and eventually into the Lower Peninsula, or to have someone transport them from Minnesota to Southern Michigan. Lord knows there's more then enough food sources for them.

[KEN C]

LMAO
Anybody have any kitty treats I want ot catch the elusive Michigan cougar. Oh wait I need a skull of a dead captive cougar so I can plant some evidenece in the UP... Okay that was sarcasim, but wow that was good PR to get all that printed in mainstream media and on TV news. I just hope MWC did not get to many people to donate money based on these false media reports. I set my traps again tonight, I used purina cat chow and cat nip I hope to catch one LMAO................

[LandBarge]

The Eastern Cougar Network yesterday reported results of the studies of two videos purporting to show cougars in Michigan. Read the results here.
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michigan8-23-04.htm

Cheers!
landbarge

[LandBarge]

More Michigan Cougar news from ECN. Read it here:

http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michskull8-23-04.htm

Cheers!
LandBarge

[TGehrs]

A friend of mine who lives on the south end of Lake Skegemog(sp) has twice
seen cougars. One was at his residence, a large male close enough that he could readily see his testicles and the other on a trail while riding his horse.
When he reported it to the DNR he was told the same old bobcat crap and
yes wolverines do NOT exist in Michigan. My wife and I saw a pair of wolves
west of Cadillac a couple years ago and the larger of the two had a 41/2 in.
footprint. I too was told by the DNR that we had seen yotes.

[rockinmichigan]

I've heard of people seeing coyotes in Ida, MI, in Monroe County, but I don't think there's ever been photos or video of them or any catches. I say the same about them as I do about cougers, why can't there be any in Michigan? There's plenty of food source for them, and just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not around. How many people on this thread has ever seen a bald eagle in Michigan, or muskrats, or beavers, or loons, or Asian carp, or a snakehead fish, or bowfin, or black bear? Of what I just mentioned, the only ones I've never seen in Michigan or otherwise alive in person are Asian carp, snakehead fish, and black bear. I know Asian carp are in the Mississippi River and in rivers in Illinois, but who knows what river is connected to another river that leads into the Great Lakes. There was a giant snakehead fish that was caught in the Rock River between Beloit and Janesville, WI last September, misidentified as a bowfin and released back into the river. Of all people it was the WI DNR that mis-IDed it. Who knows if the same can be said in Michigan? Maybe some knucklehead working for the MI Department of Natural Resources has seen a coyote and thought it was a wolf or vice versa. That's my point and kind of what I've been hitting at on here, just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not out there.

[Swamp Monster]

How many people on this thread has ever seen a bald eagle in Michigan, or muskrats, or beavers, or loons, or Asian carp, or a snakehead fish, or bowfin, or black bear? Of what I just mentioned, the only ones I've never seen in Michigan or otherwise alive in person are Asian carp, snakehead fish, and black bear.

I've seen all of the above numerous times except for the Asian Carp and the snakehead, I'm guessing most on here have as well. Plenty of Bald Eagles, Muskrats, Beavers, Black Bear, even loons in certain areas etc...those sightings don't generate news of any type unless they are inside a city limits. And Coyotes barely generate news unless it's the east side of the state...those folks get all excited! As far as wolf sighting in the lower UP, it's possible (as is almost anything) but I would put my money on the fact that they were hybrid wolf dogs that the owner let loose or they got loose. These hybrids were/are really popular in northern Michigan and unless your well experienced in wolf identification, can't really tell the difference. I'm sure that some of the cougar sightings are the real deal, no doubt in my mind. I have my doubts about a breeding population, at least in the lower. The Michigan Wildlife Conservancy is a bunch of bunk though, but thats just my opinion.

[Linda G.]

Get hold of some guys who are members of one of the sportsmans clubs or one of the conservation groups in Monroe County. You'll find plenty of people who have hunted, seen, and shot coyotes in Monroe County, as well as people who have caught them in traps.

Tgehrs-I live about 20 miles from Skegemog Lake and get down there to hunt, fish, boat, and interview people almost every day. I was in that area last night, as a matter of fact, fishing at the Sand Lakes Quiet Area...

Believe me, cougars, wolves, wolverines and Bigfoots are as common as fleas down there...all you have to do is ask the locals ;) :p

[rockinmichigan]

Swamp monster, the reasoning why I brought up those animals is because no matter how much some people get out to the outdoors to fish, camp, trap, hunt, hike, whatever the case maybe, some might not have ever seen a bowfin or an eagle. In fact, I've been out and about in the outdoors most if not all of my life, and didn't see my first bowfin, bald eagle, beaver, and loon until last year, and I'm 25 years old now. Linda G, I'm sure there's quite a few people who have caught coyotes in traps, etc. in Monroe County. I'd like to see them running around in the wild though, if not catch one in a trap. I'm starting to get back into the whole trapping thing so that would be pretty cool I think to catch one. Would be nice if someone caught a couger in Michigan though, because I do still believe they are in the state,but I honestly wanna do more then believe, I wanna know if they are in the state. Every day I start to doubt it anymore.

[SR-Mechead]

. Every day I start to doubt it anymore.[/QUOTE]
Why do doubt it . With states like Minnesota,and Wisconsin on the borders of Michigan who really knows whats in the state. How many Michigan rattle snakes have people seen. I saw about 20 in my life time when they were trapped at a lake in northern kent county. How many Badgers have people seen. I saw one killed in the city of Walker. I don't think that there is anyone on this thread that can say that there are no cougars in the state of Mich. I have been hunting for 51 years and I can say I have seen a lot of different animals Bobcats , bears, yotes even saw a moose swimming in the Saint Marys river by Raber Bay. Have I ever saw a cougar (no ) ,but that does not mean that they are not around. :)

[Linda G.]

I don't think anyone here is questioning whether there MIGHT be wild cougars SOMEWHERE in Michigan...what we're questioning is the presence of wild cougars, a breeding population, in Monroe County-specifically, the video taken there by employees of MWC, and whether or not the cougar skull found in Chippewa County came from a WILD cougar.

I have often said, and still say, that since they found and killed a wild cougar in northern Minnesota a year or so ago, none in Wisconsin as yet to my knowledge, and because cougars are known to have HUGE territories, it is indeed VERY possible that there could be a cougar or two wandering around in the UP, most likely in the western UP, in very remote areas.

What we're questioning here is whether the MWC should be considered valid authorities on the subject of wild cougars in Michigan...

[rockinmichigan]

I keep telling myself just that, SR-Mechead. There is a food source for cougers, but them whoever that looked at the video saying that its actually domestic cats instead of cougers really disappointed me. I never did see the video, but at the same time I was hoping they were cougers. Still could be and they messed up on the identifying, but I don't know. I still have a part of me that really does think they're in this great big terrific state of Michigan, but who really knows?

[Swamp Monster]

What we're questioning here is whether the MWC should be considered valid authorities on the subject of wild cougars in Michigan...

And the answer to that is a Big NO! Their motives are suspect at best. Now, I haven't checked the sources that the Eastern Cougar Network used, maybe they are made up, I don't know. But if they are for real, I'm certainly more apt to believe these folks over a bunch of part timers at the MWC.

[Linda G.]

A number of outdoor writers across the state have already verified the credibility of the Eastern Cougar Network, by contacting their sources...a necessary part of reputable journalism. They're for real.

I also know a Michigan outdoor writer who attended their annual conference last spring in West Virginia, which many nationally known and accredited scientists and "cougar professionals" also attended. I do not believe the MWC was there or represented.

[rockinmichigan]

Well, if they didn't show up that should probably tell you a little something about what they're about. Doesn't sound like they have that much credibility if you ask me.

[Swamper]

When the movie "Jaws" came out 20 plus years ago, there were sharks reported everywhere. Has anyone seen a dinosaur?
Swamper

[Swamp Monster]

Linda I assumed the Eastern Cougar Network sources were reliable, but since I didn't investigate those sources I didn't claim it as such. Glad to hear they are reliable. I would trust their judgement long before the MWC.

[rockinmichigan]

Actually I have seen a dinosaur, a T. Rex named Mr. Tuteliun, my homeroom teacher my senior year in high school. I tell you what, that was an experience totally not needed to talk about on here.

[SR-Mechead]

Linda I disagree with you saying your not questioning are there cougars. The thread started 16 pages ago and it said ( Do wild cougars live in Michigan) :)

[markbouman]

Enough already ..... are you REALLY that bored? :bash:

[dogjaw]

:help:
Why does the Michigan DNR have a cougar/lynx observation report?
DNR observation report (http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/wildlife/pubs/cougar_lynx_obsreport.asp)
Why would the NRC "Committee of the Whole" discuss cougar?
NRC Agenda March 7-8, 2001 (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/NRCagnMAR01_17806_7.pdf)
Why are cougar listed on the DNR protected species list?
Protected Species (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363-31425--,00.html)

[KEN C]

dog jaw
#1 a Lynx was found in the UP last year. That is a fact. They need a form to follow up on big cat sightings if there real or not.
#2 With all the news on cougars and MWF saying there are cougars. The NRC finds it neccassary to address the issue
#3 Just like the Wolf, cougars are considered threatened species in Michigan. No differrent than any of the sorrounding states Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wis, etc etc.

[Ferg]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/4713bad_daydeer-med.jpg


ferg....

[FREEPOP]

That's a mule deer, you can tell by the tail :chillin:

[ESOX]

Oh great, shall I start another thread about Mulies in MI???

Could have fooled me, those look like michigan trees, just like the ones in the video......;):lol:

[Ferg]

I'd try to breath a little 'new' life into the thread :lol: :lol: :yikes: :bash:


ferg....

[Buddy Lee]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/4713bad_daydeer-med.jpg


ferg....

That's one of the coolest pictures I've seen! :yikes:

[Airoh]

Here's one from the Pigeon River State forest area.;)


http://www.ifish.net/gallery/uploads/39/DSC00181.JPG

[rockinmichigan]

Where's the Pigeon River State Park at? The other question I have is if you were to shine light on the cat and deer, wouldn't that spook them at all? I don't totally doubt the authenticity of the picture, but just seems odd, to me anyways. I would just think they'd be spooked unless they were hanging out by a cabin with lights all over.

[Linda G.]

You're hysterical...you take everything far too seriously...those photos were doctored, whatever the original was of was taken through a deer cam, or a stealth cam, or you know, those little cameras everyone is buying that everyone else is stealing... :p

The Pigeon River Country State Forest is located north of Gaylord, and it's not full of cougars, believe me... :p

[KEN C]

all the Elk are getting eat by the mountain lions in the Pigeon river area. Its all part of the plan by the DNR to get rid of the pesky elk

[Trophy Specialist]

I just watched the new CD that the MWC released last week. It shows the video of two cougars in a picked corn field in Monroe County. MWC had the video analyzed by Future Media and they determined that the cats in the video were in fact cougars. The MWC also had the tape analyzed by a forensic expert who has over 25 years of experience in crime scene investigations with the Michigan State Police. This expert, whose specialty is video analysis, agreed with Future Media that the cats on the tape are indeed cougars. Any thinking person that sees this new evidence will have no doubt that two cougars walked across a Monroe County corn field last year.

[rockinmichigan]

Trophy Specialist, I heard about them confirming that they were cougers. They were sited in the township next time me, in Whiteford Township. I live in Bedford Township. I think its pretty cool to know that they were there, now to see about finding them again and getting them to some people that know what they are.

[KEN C]

I just watched the new CD that the MWC released last week. It shows the video of two cougars in a picked corn field in Monroe County. MWC had the video analyzed by Future Media and they determined that the cats in the video were in fact cougars. The MWC also had the tape analyzed by a forensic expert who has over 25 years of experience in crime scene investigations with the Michigan State Police. This expert, whose specialty is video analysis, agreed with Future Media that the cats on the tape are indeed cougars. Any thinking person that sees this new evidence will have no doubt that two cougars walked across a Monroe County corn field last year.
MICHIGAN "COUGAR" VIDEOS SHOW HOUSECATS

ECN News, 8/23/04



On July 26, 2004, the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy released a video-production, which purported to document two separate incidents of wild cougars caught on videotape in Michigan. The first video was taken in Monroe County in April 2004. It featured two animals and was filmed by Carol Stokes. The second video involved a single animal from Wexford County in 1997. The Monroe County video has received considerable media attention in recent weeks. The story ran on a number of local television news broadcasts, as well as in several major newspapers.



In keeping with its mission of collecting and evaluating evidence of cougars in the Midwest, ECN coordinated an independent expert review of these videos. In consulting with some of the most prominent zoologists and cougar biologists in North America, and following a review of available literature on cougar behavior and physiology, it has been concluded that the animals depicted in both video segments are clearly house cats.



Monroe County Video

There are several very telling physical characteristics and behaviors that indicate that these animals are housecats. The body conformation is consistent with domestic cats, not cougars (i.e., head profile, arched backs, rounded bodies, very short necks and relatively short tails). Their movements are clearly those of house cats, as they walk with relatively short, choppy strides and with their backs in a slightly arched position. Most importantly, in the 70 seconds in which they are featured on the tape, BOTH cats raise their tails vertically and appear to spray urine backwards (while their tails twitch). This behavior has not been documented in captive or wild cougars of either sex. It is characteristic of domestic cats (See expert quotes and publications cited below).



Wexford County Video
There are also several telling physical characteristics and behaviors that indicate the Wexford County animal is a house cat (i.e., arched back, round/stocky body, relatively large head, large pointed ears, short muzzle, small feet, very short neck, relatively short tail, coat pattern and color). The animal's movements are also consistent with house cat (short choppy stride and an arched back position).


Expert Opinions
ECN consulted with numerous zoologists and cougar experts in conjunction with this analysis. The following were typical responses.



Mark L Zornes

Arizona Game & Fish Dept.

Small Game/Predator-Furbearer Biologist



"I have reviewed the tape and all cats shown are obviously house cats. The photo of the "family" group and the single animal prior to and after exhibit traits and behaviors consistent with house cats, not cougars. I have never observed cougars lifting their tails in an erect manner as seen on the video, and have yet to find a single cougar biologist that has witnessed this behavior. Cougars are specifically documented as the only large wild felid that does not "spray" to mark territory (note this behavior in the Stokes film). The "humped-backed" posture exhibited by all cats in the video is not consistent with cougar behavior, but is with house cats. The size comparison footage from the "Stoke's film" and the single cat are very suspect."



Chuck Anderson. Ph.D.

Trophy Game Section

Wyoming Game and Fish Department



“Regarding the Michigan cougar video, all of the cats video taped look like the "kitty" variety to me. The erect tail and humped back is not consistent with cougar behavior/physiology. Estimated size of the object video taped can be significantly off if the distance to the subject is not exact. I suspect others have pointed this out, but in addition to the video taped cats, the tape also includes a still photograph of a cougar I suspect is a captive animal. This cat exhibited significant belly fat, which I have never seen on a wild cougar. Feel free to cite my opinion and let me know if you have any additional questions.”



Darrell Land

Florida Panther Section Leader

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission



“In my humble opinion, based on 20 years of experience with Florida panthers and investigating Florida panther sightings, I believe the video referenced below is of 2 housecats. Cougars/panthers/mountain lions are not capable of holding their tails in the manner of the cats in the video. Also, I do not believe that video accurately portrays the size of the cats. In fact, it appears that the cats are of the same height, if not shorter than, the stubble in the field and I suspect that stubble to be less than 18 inches tall.”



Norah B. Fletchall

Co-Chair AZA Felid Taxon Advisory Group

Assistant Zoo Director-John Ball Zoo



"I have reviewed the alleged cougar video on the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy website at www.miwildlife.org. The video of the two felids across a field taken in eastern Michigan do not appear to be cougars. First of all the distance and poor resolution of the video makes it impossible for me to accurately judge the size of the two animals. In addition, the video comparisons of the cats with nearby trees, etc. is unconvincing and confusing. The movements of the cats, particularly the spraying behavior does not look like any cougars I have ever seen. The movements of the cats are much more akin to house cats than mountain lions. The animal’s bodies do not appear to be long enough to be cougars and body size is not heavy enough. Neither cat seems to notice the camera. An elusive species such as a mountain lion would be much more wary when moving along the edge of an open field than either one of these cats. Coat pattern/color is not distinguishable to me at all. Based upon the above I do not think these cats are mountain lions-they appear to me to be house cats.



As for the other video of the cat moving through the snow it is not a mountain lion. Size, movements and coat pattern and color all appear to me to be that of a domestic long haired cat enjoying a winter romp in the snow!



I did show the video to three of our staff members (all three have experience working with captive cougars including a former zookeeper who cared for our cougars daily for twenty years). None of them thought the cats in the video were cougars."



Dave Moody

Trophy Game Coordinator

Wyoming Game and Fish Department



“After reviewing the video you provided, it is clear to me that the individuals are house cats, not cougars. I've been working with large predators for over ten years and have never heard of, or observed, a cougar lift it's tail the way these cats do. It's my understanding that cougars do not spray in this fashion to mark territories. Additionally, the various body movements, postures, and shape that these cats exhibit (arching back, head profile, and extended gut) are not consistent with cougars.”



David S. Maehr, Ph.D.

University of Kentucky

Department of Forestry

(Former Florida Panther Researcher)



"I looked at the video and it really looks like house cats to me. One of the cats appears very light in color, and the way they wave their tails around is not that of a cougar. The argument regarding size relative to a tree is bogus because there does not appear to be a way of showing exactly where these animals are relative to it. Besides, they just don't look like big cats to me."



Mark Jenkins

Proprietor

Cooper's Rock Mountain Lion Sanctuary

"I checked out the video and I also think they are housecats. The movements are all wrong for a large cats, and in twelve years of daily observation of cougars I have never seen one raise its tail vertically and spray like the other cat species I have worked with."



Relevant Literature:



Sunquist, M., & Sunquist, F. (2002). Wild Cats of the World. Chicago: University of Chicago Press

Wemmer, C., & Scow, K. (1977). Communication in the Felidae with emphasis on scent marking and contact patterns. In How Animals Communicate, ed. T.A. Sebeok, 749-766. Bloomington: Indiana University Press.



Acknowledgements:



We would like to thank all of the professionals who assisted us in our review of the video taped evidence. We are also indebted to Yale University’s Kline Science Library, which provided ECN access to its extensive collection of literature on felid behavior and physiology.



MICHIGAN "WILD COUGAR SKULL" CAME FROM CAPTIVE ANIMAL NAMED "SASHA"

ECN News, 8/23/04

ECN conducted an independent investigation into the origins of a cougar skull found by woodcutters in Chippewa County, Michigan in 2001. This skull has been cited in numerous press accounts as evidence of a "wild, breeding population" of cougars in Michigan. It was also featured prominently in a July 26, 2004 video released by the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy.

Our investigation revealed that the skull originated from Randy Desormeau’s Northland Taxidermy Shop, which is located adjacent to the property on which the skull was found. In life, the animal was a de-clawed pet female cougar named "Sasha". According to proprietor Randy Desormeau, Sasha was owned by a man on Neebish Island in the St. Mary's River between the eastern end of the Upper Peninsula and Ontario. The owner, who does not want his name made public, bought Sasha from a breeder as a nine-day-old cub. She died from choking on a piece of turkey.

According to Randy’s adult son Brian, the owner had taken Sasha’s carcass to the shop to be mounted. Not realizing he could have asked for the entire skeleton to be returned, Sasha's owner told Randy he could have it. Randy tossed the skull out his back door for the bugs to clean. According to Brian Desormeau, "Something dragged it off." When the story of the "wild" cougar skull hit the local newspaper, Brian said, "we all laughed".

Followers of The Network’s Breaking News Page should not be surprised about the origin of the skull, as we posted an item titled "Michigan Skull Likely Came From Captive Cat" dated October 2002. Linked to this headline was a December 2001 letter to the Rose Lake Wildlife Disease Laboratory from the University of Michigan's Museum of Zoology. Signed by zoologists from both U-M and MSU, the letter states in part, "Given the animal's apparent age, we were surprised at how unworn the animal's cheek-teeth were. . . . This suggests to us (but certainly does not prove) that the animal may have been an escaped captive" (Lundrigan and Myers 2001). This letter can still be viewed on the ECN website at http://www.easterncougarnet.org/michskull.htm.

Sasha's skull currently resides at the DNR’s Rose Lake office in Lansing. ECN is working on behalf of the Desormeaus’ to have it returned to them.

[Linda G.]

I believe what Mike is referring to is a press release put out by the MWC a week or so ago refuting all of the opinions of the experts cited by ECN, Ken.

Just a desperate effort by MWC to try to re-establish some of the credibility they've lost over these videos, I think...I know the president of Future Media, and although I have no doubt he's an expert on video, I doubt he's an expert on cougars. All of this controversy can't be good for his reputation, either.

Couldn't tell you anything about the forensic expert who has taken a stand against all of these other reputable cougar experts, but I would assume his expertise is in people, not cougars.

Whatever...the cougar camera study has been going on now for more than two months in Sleeping Bear Dunes, guess what...no cougars. I'll stay with that story, and if they see any cougars, you all will be the first to know!!

;)