End Affirmative Action in Michigan?

[EdB]

A group is gathering signatures for a ballot initiative to end affirmative action in MI. If enough signatures are gathered, over 300,000, it will be on the ballot in November. MI voters will be asked if we should add an amendment to our constitution to end all affirmative action in this state. This will mean that race preferences cannot be used in college admissions or for any other matter. What do you think?

[Buddy Lee]

I think Affirmative Action is a terrible concept. Eliminate it.

Anyone know where I can find a petition to sign in the Lansing area?

[Big K]

Do you really think the politicians in Michigan will end AA? It won't happen. Do I personally think we need AA? It has it's place as long as it's not abused. But it's like everything else in the world, someone comes up with a good thing to help certain people in need and then lawyers get a hold of it and push the envelope and use it in ways it's not meant to be used. I'm surprised you wanted to bring up such a hot and controversial topic. Let's all just try and get along...okay?

[EdB]

The reason I brought it up is that a petition drive is now underway in MI and it will be a big issue in this state in the coming months. It involves a state constitutional amendment. The issue may ultimately be decided by all the voters in this state. This is merely an opinion poll.

[snakebit67]

Maybee I am "old school" in my thinking, but I believe you should be judged on your own merits, skills, and what you bring to the table. The most qualified should get the job. We have EEOC laws that protect from discrimination.

[jpollman]

GET RID OF IT !

But I doubt it'll ever happen. :(

[Chris_Davis]

Big K, I voted in this poll to end it, but I think I understand what you're saying (I have been drinking). I'm totally oppossed to race based inititaves, but I don't have a problem with affirmative action IF it's based on income. I'm a little sick of seeing rich minoriities gain an advantage over anyoneone who's more qualified to enter into a school.

[Hamilton Reef]

The definition of affirmative action is racist sexist discrimination.

[YPSIFLY]

Yes, get rid of it.....where do I sign?

[Mitch]

Get rid of it!!! As Snakebit said, best man for the job gets it, no questions about it. I can't wait to hear from the Rainbow Coalition on this one.

The whole concept makes me sick.

Mitch

[SALMONATOR]

YES.

Al

[Hamilton Reef]

When confronted by these anitballot BAMN people just keep poking in their face that "You are the racist" "You are the racist" "You are the racist" "You are the racist" ..........>

Affirmative action ban would backfire, it says

Representatives of BAMN have said they plan to follow petition circulators into the street and discourage potential signers.

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/naffir14_20040114.htm

[TrailFndr]

Its way past time to end this unequal system. Its pretty sad that a better qualified person is bypassed in the name of so-called equality. This in itself is the WORST form of discrimination. Quotas for race, have created a seperate group of highly qulified, yet un-employable people, as well as a group of highly qualified, and highly motivated students that can not get the education that they desire, simply because of thier skin color. This is WRONG.

Affirmative action needs to be outlawed NATIONWIDE... lets begin it here in the great state of Michigan.

[uniborn]

Get rid of it!
Ridiculous to say the least! This form of thinking is what spawns racism. If we are ever going to lick this problem(racism) in America we need to nip this issue in the bud.
uniborn

[deepwoods]

Get rid of it. Enough is enough.

Quote from Martin Luther Kings famous "I have a dream" speech: "one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

I want to live in that nation also!

[Bucktail Butch]

Do away with Affirmative Action!!!!

"When concessions are made for one specific segment of the population, it is discrimination against all others."

[bounty hunter]

May the better man or woman win..Dump it because it racist the other way around which no one ever seems to scream loud enough about!

[Brian S]

Yes, dump it.

BUT

You also have to dump the preference points given to children of Alumni.

No one should get preference because of color OR because their daddy went there.

[WAUB-MUKWA]

Yes, end it!
When I was a kid I had to do certain chores during the day or weekend before I could go play or go to a friends house. If you wanted something you had to earn it. If you didn't do the chores you didn't eat, as my dad always said.
Get rid of this classification for people who have a brain the same size as mine.:mad:

[Mags]

To get info for the proposal, try www.MCRI2004.org.

Info against the proposal, try www.oneunitedmichigan.org.

[farmlegend]

Originally posted by Brian S
You also have to dump the preference points given to children of Alumni.


I would agree, where public colleges an universities are concerned. As to private institutions of higher learning, I would regard that as their business.

I believe the concept of "affirmative action" (probably one of the earliest politically-correct phrases of the modern era, which really means "race-based preferences"), is a great obstacle to us achieving a truly color-blind society.

[keducation]

Yes, get rid of it...my daughter was not accepted at U of M
because the peopel from Asia had preference...they also paid
non-resident fees which may be a bigger reason than AA.....

Do you ever wonder why we have so many Indian, Pakistan and
Asian medical people? Are they genetically superior for medical
training? Many of these people work very hard for their success,
but we have given lots of foreign folk the advantage to our ed
systems long enough.....most of them were supposed to go back to their countries....funny how they found the good life and stayed
and there was no deportation after the agreement was broken...

Lets all compete based on skill......

[GONE FISHIN(LARRY)]

just went though the job interview thing at U of M ,500 applied they narrowed it down to 5 of us who went in for a second interview,I know all of other 4,from the outside looking in 3 of us had about the same qualifcations,being the oldest man I figured I would not get the job,but to all of our surprise they gave it to the only minority in the final 5, he had half the experence and qualifactions of the rest of us.

[Whit1]

Nah! Don't end affirmative action. I'm tryin' ta get a job in a local Chinese restaurant and AF is my only chance of getting that job!!..........LOL!

Seriously!

I rarely look at Sound Off and even rarer, vote in a poll. This was an exception. I voted to eliminate Affirmative Action.........UNLESS........it works in ALL directions..which of course it won't.

Dump it!!!!

[BaitRunner]

Yes, take it (AA) off the books, its a big joke!

Bob

[Hunt_n_Fish]

Get rid of this stupid idea

[Hamilton Reef]

Michigan split over the path to equality

"I think that affirmative action has gone past the point of what it was originally intended to do," said Cassandra Stuart, 39, a white Oakland Township resident and poll respondent who is a student at Baker College. "It's almost led to reverse discrimination. I can't believe in anything that supports hiring somebody based on their age, gender or racial ethnicity. I think that it should be based on merit alone."

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/affirm19_20040119.htm

[WALLEYEvision]

Yes, get rid of it!

[Hamilton Reef]

“I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
— Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Aug. 28, 1963

There you have it. Even Rev. Martin Luther King Jr said to not judge by the color of their skin. Ban affirmative action!

[Hamilton Reef]

Suit aims to block race ballot drive
Attorneys who prevailed before high court argue referendum circumvents ruling

A lawsuit was filed Monday in an attempt to block a state petition drive that aims to outlaw affirmative action in government and in college admissions.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0401/27/c01-47213.htm

[Bluegill Bob]

I should read the news more. I thought that Affirmative Action ment " Giving someone a position the were not qualified for"
Am I wrong?;)

[snakebit67]

QUOTE "This referendum is a direct attack on racial PREFERENCE."




Damn straight.!

[Hamilton Reef]

Pay attention to the petitions circulating this election cycle

The petition season is well under way in Michigan and voters would be wise to pay attention to what they're signing -- or not signing, as the case may be.

Despite a Detroit News poll that showed 64 percent of statewide voters are in favor of banning the use of affirmative action preferences, a coalition of business, government, education, civil rights and other groups is banding together to fight the initiative’s petition campaign.
Once the weather warms up, you likely will see signature gatherers in most malls
and supermarket parking lots. Critics say that because the campaign organizer is Californian Ward Connerly, it’s not a local issue. But that’s baloney. Connerly’s just the lightning rod.
I have not yet signed this petition, but I will. The Supreme Court has been wrong
before.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0401/28/c01-48070.htm

[BaitRunner]

Hamilton Reef'

You are right on the money here!! Good write up.
Most of us know that AA is a bunch of crap however, politicians will swing either way to gain votes in their favor and lets face that as a FACT!
I really liked an earlier thread that described AA as:
Not being qualified for a position but getting it anyway because of the color of your skin. This is a very sad situation but sorry to say, that we as tax paying folks who pay for these positions have no control over this matter regardless of how hard we try, for the good of our country. What a damn shame!

"Dear Founding Fathers , we need your help, change the color of your skin, (it just may work) and please come back, our country needs you for some minor tuning of our Constitution." :p :p

Geez, are we screwed up or what?

Boy I can't wait till ice out, get the Baitrunner back in the water ;)


Bob______ Have a great day

[Hamilton Reef]

Baitrunner,
Affirmative Action is defined as racist sexist discrimination and yes, the less qualified are hired and promoted first. Once the dumbed down agency or company has the less qualified in positions of power, they (the promoted AAs) tend to hire dumber applicants as to not threaten their own status. During layoffs as companies move work over seas, they also use AA to claim protection from layoffs.

[The Dripster]

It has got to go.
Dan

[RichP]

I was scrolling through all the posts looking for ONE supporter of affirmative action. No one out there? Not one opposing point of view? Interesting...

Well, it's not going to be me, because I'm not for it either, but since I don't feel I've been directly affected the issue it doesn't ring strongly with me. I know a couple people here mentioned examples where they feel they were victimized by it so if I was in that situation I guess I would be really upset about it also.

The thing that always gets me are some of the justifications. Regarding the University of Michigan, the place where a lot of this is centered at -- one of their main arguments is that diversity is a "compelling student interest." The idea is that everyone will benefit from exposure to other cultures. Well, I went to U of M, and from my experience is that within the University there are many examples of segregation. From living in the dorms, you only need to go into the cafeterias to see how different cultures tend to stick together (with some exceptions of course). The idea where everyone sits in a circle and shares life experiences and to have the different groups comment how they never thought of it like that, "wow your viewpoint has changed my life"....I'm sorry, that just doesn't happen, except maybe in a couple of the ultra liberal arts classes...

Regarding affirmative action in noneducational situations like the workplace -- yeah, that's just plain wrong. I can't imagine knowing that I lost out on a job based on ethnic background, that would be highly upsetting.

My 2 cents...

[2PawsRiver]

It is good to vote, it is good to sign petitions, it is good to get involved with making things better for everybody. Affirmative Action is nothing short of government sactioned racism.

WWW.Adversity.Net is another source of info.....one of the Directors is a fisherman....hmmmm and regulary visits this site.

[adjusted3]

Ok, I am going to draw a lot of heat for this but I voted to keep affirmative action for now.

We can all thank our forefathers for getting us to this point. Until businesses can honestly hire and fire without regard to race or sex, and pay them the same, we have a problem and it is only going to be solved either through legislation or education. Unfortunately, education is not working. Do you really want to ditch this legislation? Why? Is it because you are afraid that if we keep it you may get passed for a promotion, a raise or be turned down for a perspective job offer? I seriously doubt it. And if you did, was it because you really were not qualified or because of your sex/skin color? Lets get real and be salf examining.

For the record, the number one minority in the US at this time is the white male. The number ONE MAJORITY in this county is the disabled!

Ok, now for a little plagiarism-

Less than one-third of the U.S. population are white males of all ages. Less than one-fourth are white men in the workforce. Under fifty percent makes them a minority. That should be a simple fact to absorb. If white men are a minority, how come they don't realize it? If white men are a minority, how come other minorities treat them as the majority, as the "dominant culture?" If white men are a minority, how come they're a majority in your company? The answer is that your company doesn't reflect the country, or your state or city. It's time for a reality check. If white men are a minority, how come they have most of the positions of power? The answer is that we have white minority rule. . When we say "minority," we usually have meant "non-white" or "people of color." It's a little more complicated, since many women are in the habit of calling themselves a minority when in fact females outnumber males in every age group after infancy. The country is more than fifty percent female. We are used to speaking of "women and minorities" as a category of the workforce, which leaves white males as the other category, implying that white males are the majority. . Minorities all, any group is a fraction of the whole. It's not helpful to create factions, to set one group against another. If we are going to live up to the best potential of diversity as an expanded community, we need to stop calling each other names, even if those names are government-approved. We're shortchanging our humanity, we're leaving out the multiplier effects of working together, across categories and labels.

Ok, now I am back and lets think about this a little. Can you truly look at the business you are in and say that the race/sex of the workforce reflects the true makeup of your community/county/state? If not, you had better be for affirmative action especially if you are a white male! Now that was a little selfish, but seriously if the workforce does not reflect your community, than your company is part of the problem.

I have a very highly degreed female friend that does not earn the same (not even close) to the same as what other male counter parts earn for the same occupation. For that matter, I earn far more than other persons in my occupation than what other females and other races earn. Is it right, Not even in the least.

I too have been a victim of affirmative action in promotions and transfers. I started to complain but until one realizes that it is mindset of the powers of who has the money and the power of say and that we will return to that mindset if this goes away, we cannot be truly equal to both minority and sex until education takes over and we give the respect that was due long ago. I find it quite ironic that my wife makes 58k less than I and she has a skilled degree and I do not. Affirmative action is not working in many forms but it is a start and needs to be overhauled in its truest form and protect all persons from bias including the disabled and the white male. Do we give it up, no way! Do we need to revamp it to reflect the current times? Absolutely. Yet I for one will not sign any petition one way or another until an outline to correct the current legislation is in order to correct the problems that we now face with affirmative action.

No offended intentions given or intended in this post, Just some food for thought and please feel free to disagree but keep it respectible, If not I will hunt you down, preference points or not.

Mark

[GONE FISHIN(LARRY)]

adjusted3,
this whole pettion thing started,after the supreme court made there ruiling last year ,I believe in reguards to admission to to u of m law school.adjusted3 let me ask you this,is it fair for a middle class or upper middle black, to be admitted to college before a poor white with better grades ? There are more middle class blacks now then in any other time in history mostly thanks to affirmative . As I stated earlier in this tread I lost a job out at U of M to a black who is far less qualified.If there going to level the playing field for admissions to college I think they should do it by income level there are a whole lot of poor white folks who are getting no help at all.

[Ruler]

Get rid of AA once and for all.

I've heard of many minority groups that think this is a horrible idea. I simply do not understand this viewpoint. As I see it, the entire idea behind AA is that these minorities suck so badly, there's no way for them to compete unless they're given some sort of artificial advantage. By opposing this proposal, they're basically acknowledging this as true.

Like I said, I don't get it. :confused:

[chetly]

I appreciate all the support here, and would ask anyone interested in helping us out to contact me at chetly@mcri2004.org or visit http://www.mcri2004.org
and fill out our survey form, which is directed to me.

All inquiries will be treated confidentially; although we would also appreciate your public support as well.

Truly,
Chet

Mark's post captures this movement, when he notes that he has a female friend who doesn't get paid equal to her male counterparts but that he has also seen the consequences of blatant race or gender preferences. MCRI does not affect and we have support laws that require pay equality or ensure equality in other opportunities, such as outreach programs or socio-economic programs (for all individuals regardless of race); we merely end race and gender preferences. "Affirmative action" is a broader term that some have tried to paint as the same as "race preferences," but at best race preferences are only one, and the most odious, type of affirmative action.

If the program pre-selects individual winners and losers based on race or gender; rather than increasing the pool of competitors so that equal numbers of individuals from all stripes competing; then the program should go. This means "real reform" in K-12 education; something most politicians are afraid of now; and something race preferences "cover up" by making "look more diverse on the surface," rather than the real diversity generated by helping more people compete equally.

[Swamp Monster]

No,no, I say dump it to..reverse racism that breeds more racism.

The part I'm shocked about....I mean floored....I agree with HR! lol!

[Whit1]

Swampy,
LOL! I had to chuckle at your comment above. Actually there is far more that unites us than divides us, when, that is, we look behind the politics.

[Swamp Monster]

I agree 100%, just a little tongue n' cheeck! When all is said and done, I could care less where someone stands politicaly. I would gladly share a fishing hole or hunting ground with anyone from this sight.....as long as they are law abidding and all ofcourse. Some things in life are just more important.

[Dick Graves]

This is how it worked in Detroit from the early 70's untill the present.

The promotional process within the the Detroit Police Department:

1: Score on the promotional test, 600 questions very similiar to a bar exam. Very few people score high enough on the first test that they take. Usually 95% or better will get you in the hunt.

2: Senority on the job.

3: College education.

4: Service rating: you receive theses twice a year from you immediate supervisor.

5: Military time.

6: Oral Board, usually adminstered by 3 higher ranking officers from outside the City.

Each category is weighted: 90% for the written exam, 2% for each of the other categories.

Once everything is graded, a list is published as to how you ranked.

600 names for Sgt., usually 200 for Lt.. The department needs 50 sgt.'s BUT the positions are divided equally, so many white males, so many Black males, then the women come into play.

The first ten positions are given to the first ten people on the list, then the fun begins, to fill the 50 openings, some of the "peoples" could be number 300 or lower on the list.

The whole idea behind the process is to have the most qualified person earn their promotion. So out of 50 positions, 1-10 may get promoted, then they start dipping down the list.

Then you have what are known as "charter promotions", the mayor chooses who he thinks will do O.K., some of which have never appeared on a list or even taken an exam.

This system is BANKRUPT. I have experienced it, it sucks!:mad:

[JVS]

I, like adjusted3 and the other 2, voted to keep it in place for now.

I am curious, let's see an HONEST show of hands as to, among those who voted to get rid of AA, are non-white.

I'm 3rd generation Asian-American (my parents were born in the US) and I can tell you that while AA may not work to your or your child's benefit, it is at the moment one of the only written ways to "diversify" the U of M campus (where I am employed on the medical campus BTW). And I truly believe that an undergraduate experience is enhanced by learning about the many different cultures of this world. And that works both ways, meaning the minority students have a chance to learn about what it's like to be a white person, LOL.

adjusted3 already alluded to the upper level management disparity vs. females and race minorites. AA is NOT about solving those workplace issues/problems and it's wrong to make that stretch. Here in Michigan, AA is solely about the UM campus and is about having a system in effect to ensure that the student body more closely reflects the "real world". I am not saying it is a great or perfect system, it's far from it. But based on the students I see walking around here (with their iPods and cell phones glued to their ears), if admission were based solely on those who could afford it (and let's face it, why not wipe out financial aid to the lower income families since those less fortunate students are taking the spot from some rich kid like GW who can pay their way in) then IMO that's one undergraduate school my daughter or son won't be attending.

This country is and, at least in my lifetime, will always be controlled by the white male. I would bet that a white female will be elected president before a black, asian, hispanic (take your pick of non-white race) home grown male, who is equally or better qualified than who's in the White House today!! Like I'm sure GW got there based on his outstanding credentials. We haven't even had a female VP yet, at least in office. So me personally, I turn a deaf ear when I hear or read about how white males are being mistreated or overlooked or neglected or discriminated against. From where I stand, white males have absolutely NO barriers or glass ceilings from the day they are born to reach as far as their desire takes them here in this country.

JMHO

Jim

[Moron]

JVS
Before labeling me anything else consider this. I am an individual, just like everyone else in this country.

The government through AA quotas tells me I'm not an individual, but instead a member of this group or that. Using race or gender to make decisions as to who gets help and who doesn't is racist and sexist.

I have no problem with grants and scholarships that help low income students who show potenial get an opprotunity to advance their education, as long as these systems are based on income not race, nationality, or gender.

Culture diversity is no grounds for AA either. It's awfully naive to think culture is based on the color of your skin. There are many different cultures within the group called whites, just as there are many within the blacks, hispanics, american indians, and asians.

How can we as a nation ever expect to eliminate racism and sexism when our government is the biggest perpetuator of it?

We have laws against discrimination and the only legitimate way to deal with it is on an individual basis. Not by allowing the government to practice blanket discrimination in the form of quotas. This practice only serves to perpetuate racism and sexism.
:(

[2PawsRiver]

. So me personally, I turn a deaf ear when I hear or read about how white males are being mistreated or overlooked or neglected or discriminated against.

white males have absolutely NO barriers or glass ceilings from the day they are born to reach as far as their desire takes them here in this country.

Geez Jim, a littel racist there arn't we.:o


None the less two of my other favorite things....the imfamous "Fill in the Blank"-American. What makes somebody "Fill in the Blank"-American, a physical charateristic? Does that mean we can have Short-American, Tall-American, Brown Hair-American...........or do you have to have relatives that have came from somewhere else, in which case we are all "Fill in the Blank"-Americans, except indians who are "Native Americans"

I love how people are "Fill in the Blank" and have never been there, don't speak the language, don't know the customs, made none of the sacrifices, know nothing about the place, but I'm "Fill in the Blank"-American.

I lived in Korea for three years, speak the language, eat the food, I guess I too am "Fill in the Blank"-American.

When my great grandparents immigrated to America their goal was to be "Americans". I guess I could say I am Finish-American, but truth of the matter is I'm just glad to be an "American".

Cracks me up........"I want to be treated equal, the same"...I just want you to call me by a different name, hence "Fill in the Blank"- American.

I'm from the UP, I will just settle for being "Upper"-American.

more closely reflects the "real world".

My other favorite.....does that apply to everything......like say the NBA. I don't see many short heavyset NBA Basketball players, but I bet I see a couple in the "Real World".....how do we fix that.......well with points of course.

If your under 5'7", over 250 pounds, play for a NBA team and put one throught the hoop 20 points. Free throws 25 points. 3 pointer, now that is 50 points. Should make short overweight guys reall attractive to the NBA and help to make it reflect the real world.

How about Horse Jockys (riders:D ). They are all little, how do we fix that, maybe a one second head start for every 10 pounds over 100. I would get a 10 second, ok, a 16 second head start over one of those little guys.

The list goes on and on........ending racism is easy.....quit thinking in terms of race.

I have accepted that there are people that are smaller, larger, shorter, taller, smarter, dumber, lazier, nicer, meaner, faster, slower, and on and on and on and you know what it has nothing to do with what race I am or what race they are, and I don't use it as an excuse.

We have laws against discrimination and the only legitimate way to deal with it is on an individual basis. Not by allowing the government to practice blanket discrimination in the form of quotas. This practice only serves to perpetuate racism and sexism.

Ahhh refreshing, the widom of Moron.:D

[Hamilton Reef]

I can say first hand what it is like to be violently assaulted and not get justice. I was assaulted July 19, 2002, and they still refuse to bring my court case up for trial. Muskegon County DA Tony Tague is quick to bring charges against Oakridge football players and blacks, but I'm only a SS disabled white guy noted in the police report as the little bald headed guy. Who says white guys aren't discriminated against?

[farmlegend]

Originally posted by JVS

This country is and, at least in my lifetime, will always be controlled by the white male. I would bet that a white female will be elected president before a black, asian, hispanic (take your pick of non-white race) home grown male, who is equally or better qualified than who's in the White House today!! Like I'm sure GW got there based on his outstanding credentials. We haven't even had a female VP yet, at least in office. So me personally, I turn a deaf ear when I hear or read about how white males are being mistreated or overlooked or neglected or discriminated against.


My goodness, these sort of bigots grow like weeds in Ann Arbor, don't they?:D

[Ranger Ray]

I am going to draw a lot of heat for this

Adjusted,
I may disagree with your point of view but it is hard to give someone heat when they write objectively. Well stated. ;)

[2PawsRiver]

If we are going to live up to the best potential of diversity as an expanded community, we need to stop calling each other names, even if those names are government-approved. We're shortchanging our humanity, we're leaving out the multiplier effects of working together, across categories and labels.
VS
Can you truly look at the business you are in and say that the race/sex of the workforce reflects the true makeup of your community/county/state?
You can't have it both ways, in one sentence quit calling each other government assigned names, in the other use race and sex to evaluate the work force of your business. ;)
Why? Is it because you are afraid that if we keep it you may get passed for a promotion, a raise or be turned down for a perspective job offer? I seriously doubt it. And if you did, was it because you really were not qualified or because of your sex/skin color?
VS
I too have been a victim of affirmative action in
promotions and transfers
Ok, which was it, do you "Lets get real and be salf examining" or were you a victim of affirmative action.
:confused:
Ok, I am going to draw a lot of heat for this but I voted to keep affirmative action for now
VS
Affirmative action is not working in many forms but it is a start and needs to be overhauled in its truest form and protect all persons from bias
Read about the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative the whole purpose;

"PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION TO PROHIBIT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND OTHER STATE UNIVERSITIES, THE STATE, AND ALL OTHER STATE ENTITIES FROM DISCRIMINATING OR GRANTING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BASED ON RACE, SEX, COLOR, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN. "
VS
"DISCRIMINATING OR GRANTING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BASED ON RACE, SEX, COLOR, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN."

No disrespect meant and it is a complex issue, but as for me, I don't practice or support discrimination or support any personal, business or policital policy or agenda that does.

Not only will I not support it I will activly participate in ending discrimination......and I know it still exists in many forms...heck look at "JVS".

"Mark" (at least one thing we have in common LOL)

[JVS]

Interesting. I guess now folks are experts at knowing what racial discrimination is all about, without actually living one day in another person's skin color. And it is racial discrimination (in this country) that AA is about, judging and giving preferential treatment to people based solely on skin color. It really stings to be on the other end, eh?

Back in the mid-to-late 80's when I lived in the Bay Area of California, there was a similar outcry among (mostly) white students/parents asking for quotas to offset the disproportionately (in their eyes and minds) high number of Asian students being enrolled in the Berkeley engineering (and other math-intensive majors) schools. Never mind that they weren't as well qualified (similar scoring as UM) as the Asian students. Well, last I heard they did put in a quota system to "level the playing field". Hmmm, how many of you were there in protest of that racial discrimination policy? Maybe when things work in your favor it's easier to go with the flow.

HR, I am truly sorry that you were a victim of racially motivated violence. I myself had to go through numerous battles with neighborhood bullies who hurled many a "Jap" sentiment my way. Guess inner city (supposedly liberal) Chicago wasn't much different than the rest of the state.

Naturally to use AA as a way to reward non-white students with points as a way to "make up for" all the hardships they faced their first 13 years of schooling is wrong. But to think and believe that inner-city Detroit (for example) blacks have had equal opportunity and access to educational resources as say students from Troy, well, I don't think so.

Women earn something like $0.73 on the dollar for a man's equivalent job. Is that because they don't work as hard? Because where I work, I see slackers (and hard workers) of all genders and races.

So exactly what is it that the folks who are accusing me of being a racist, doing to reduce/end racial/sexual discrimination in this country? Are you out there marching for equal pay for women? Are you marching for gay rights? Are you fighting for the black man? Do you get this passionate about causes affecting races and genders other than your own?

I would love to hear how some of you felt about the federal government giving reparations to the JA's who were interned in camps during WWII. Something like $20,000 was given to each citizen interned on the West Coast (because the governement thought they were spies) to "make up for" taking away all their possessions. I would bet my favorite bass combo that there was quite a bit of talk (among those old enough to know) against the presidents decision to spend that money. Like that was supposed to make up for lost dignity. Most of the Issei were dead by the time the money came in anyway and a lot of Nisei I know burned their checks or gave them to charities.

Oh yeah, we bigots grow like weeds here in Ann Arbor. Why don't you really say what you feel?

Jim

[2PawsRiver]

Interesting. I guess now folks are experts at knowing what racial discrimination is all about, without actually living one day in another person's skin color
Hmm, exactly when was it that you were, how do you phrase it......."the white male."

You should try to lighten up (no pun intended). Sure our forefathers made mistakes and did things wrong, but I think you will find that the forefathers of most countries made mistakes and did things wrong, hell we're still doing things wrong. Most likely our great grand kids will look back at some of the stuff this generation is doing and think we all (every color) were a bunch of dolts.

You know if this is such a terrible country full of so many terrible people......they have these places called "Airports";) and a place called the rest of the world.

Traveling it has really made me appricaite the good ol US of A, and it's many different kinds of people, I would just like to see them all treated the same.

You on the other hand may find some place you like better, where you will have better opportunities, though based on your profile, you seem to have done quite well. I can say that I am glad you have done well.......though based on your posts I don't think you would be as happy for me.

Now if you would just please provide me with the location of the "a white male" silver spoon line I would greatly appreicate it. Working two jobs to keep the things I have is getting quite tiresome. :D

On a brighter note, I am going fishing this afternoon and the steelhead are only interested in the color of my wobble glow. I personally prefer the color "Rainbow Trout", it catches fish, and as a result I give it 30 points towards college admissions.;)

[Whit1]

Guys n' gals,
I ask that you tone down your posts in this forum thread. They are edging over towards getting too personal and that is always dagerous ground upon which to write/comment.

It is virtually impossible to make judgements and evaluations of individuals based on what we "see" and read in an online site. If any of you feel that you can, then you belong in some prognostication think tank solving the world's problems or on Wall Street.

Cool your jets folks before this thread takes off into the never-never land.

Personal comments, in good taste can be taken care of via PMs.

[Moron]

And it is racial discrimination (in this country) that AA is about, judging and giving preferential treatment to people based solely on skin color.

This is exactly the way I feel, regardless of what color you happen to be. It seems you only feel this way for certain skin colors though.

Back in the mid-to-late 80's when I lived in the Bay Area of California, there was a similar outcry among (mostly) white students/parents asking for quotas to offset the disproportionately (in their eyes and minds) high number of Asian students being enrolled in the Berkeley engineering (and other math-intensive majors) schools. Never mind that they weren't as well qualified (similar scoring as UM) as the Asian students. Well, last I heard they did put in a quota system to "level the playing field". Hmmm, how many of you were there in protest of that racial discrimination policy? Maybe when things work in your favor it's easier to go with the flow.

Sometimes hard to see which side of this argument you're on, you have opposite views depending on what the skin color is.

Naturally to use AA as a way to reward non-white students with points as a way to "make up for" all the hardships they faced their first 13 years of schooling is wrong. But to think and believe that inner-city Detroit (for example) blacks have had equal opportunity and access to educational resources as say students from Troy, well, I don't think so.

Are you saying no poor white students face these same hardships and it's ok for them to be held down because of past injustices they had no part of? Or is it because their numbers are so much smaller it's ok to disregard their plight?

Because where I work, I see slackers (and hard workers) of all genders and races.

Exactly!!!!

So exactly what is it that the folks who are accusing me of being a racist, doing to reduce/end racial/sexual discrimination in this country? Are you out there marching for equal pay for women? Are you marching for gay rights? Are you fighting for the black man? Do you get this passionate about causes affecting races and genders other than your own?

Using race as a determining factor for depriving someone or advancing them is racism. If you can't see this, I question your ability to put yourself in the shoes of another. I support the rights of everyone regardless of race, skin color, nationality or gender. I believe in the concept that all men and women are created equal, and are "individuals" not to be held above or below others simply because of their heritage, this is what I fight for.

I would love to hear how some of you felt about the federal government giving reparations to the JA's who were interned in camps during WWII. Something like $20,000 was given to each citizen interned on the West Coast (because the governement thought they were spies) to "make up for" taking away all their possessions. I would bet my favorite bass combo that there was quite a bit of talk (among those old enough to know) against the presidents decision to spend that money. Like that was supposed to make up for lost dignity. Most of the Issei were dead by the time the money came in anyway and a lot of Nisei I know burned their checks or gave them to charities.

This internment was a terrible injustice, as was slavery. I hope you're not so naive as to think all whites supported these things, because if they did these injustices would never have ended? Yet you seem to have no problem holding all whites accountable for these injustices. The only possible cure, is holding individuals accountable for their own actions. Not holding whole classes of people accountable for the actions of individuals.

Oh yeah, we bigots grow like weeds here in Ann Arbor. Why don't you really say what you feel?

Unfortunately bigots come in all colors, nationalities, and both genders from all across this land. And stripping people of their individuality only adds to their numbers.

[Moron]

If any of my remarks offended anyone, I apoligize for that. It wasn't my intent to do so.

As pointed out by Whit, it can be hard to grasp the full meaning of just the printed words without the emotion one would have through verbal and visual communication.

[2PawsRiver]

Hell Moron your about the nicest poster on the thread. Thanks for keeping an eye on us Whit1. It is a very touchy subject with the potential to get out of hand and while I agree we had some close ones, I think everybody was pretty cordial.

Just to let you know I will be attending the MICHIGAN CIVIL RIGHTS INITIATIVE PETITIONING SEMINAR AND RALLY this Saturday (3/20/04). It is at the Marriott in East Lansing at 1:00 pm.

Am leaving from the Hartford area if anybody else is interested in going just let me know. Will be leaving around 10:30 am.

I will post an update upon my return.

[Hamilton Reef]

Preferences foe stumps in state
He calls affirmative action unfair

California's anti-affirmative action crusader Ward Connerly said Friday that he wants to "accelerate the timetable" toward the day when racial preferences aren't used. Connerly said there's no reason to wait the 25 years that Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor envisioned would be needed before society could end programs to help minorities in college admissions and hiring. O'Connor mentioned the 25-year target in her majority opinion last year upholding race-conscious admissions at the University of Michigan Law School.
"If justice is served by treating people equally 25 years from now, why not now?" Connerly told the Free Press editorial board.

http://www.freep.com/news/politics/conn20_20040320.htm

[dogjaw]

I'm 3rd generation Asian-American (my parents were born in the US)
That means your an American. Period. I'm an Indian, German, Irish, English, Pennsylvania Dutch type of fella myself. (With a Heinz 57 variety like that, dogjaw seems to be an appropriate name). Now that's a minority. Wahhhhh, I want money and special treatment at everyone else's expense!

Keeping a track on one's heritage is great, but one also has to keep track of the bigger picture. Your are an American first. If you want treated like an American, great. If you want treated like an Asian, migrate back to Asia. Trust me, in Michigan you'll get razzed about being from Kalifornia, not Asia.

Every group says they want to "just be treated equal", then go out of their way to be treated differently. If you act differently, expect to be considered differently. You distinctively labeled yourself as Asian-American, then demand everyone ignore the label you put on yourself. I put a label on myself by naming my heritage. What ran through YOUR mind? Did you see a American? Or did you see a red headed, white guy wearing leather shorts with an eagle feather in his cap doing an Irish jig in wooden clogs? If you saw me, you'd say I was a "white male". Isn't that racist? No, it's the truth. My skin color is white, and don't have to squat to take a leak.

I travel in many states, many of them conservative. The ONLY person that I've EVER heard a bad comment about the Asian race, came from an old woman who lost a close relative on the Baton Death March. This is significant, because if you read many of my posts, I'm not, and do not hang out with, anyone who blindly goes along with "political correctness". I prefer intellectual integrity instead. The regents at U of M will not be inviting me to dinner any time soon.

My money is taken from me in the form of taxation, and given to U of M. This is supposed to benefit myself, family, and all state residents who wish to attend that school. Instead, my money is used to keep "my kind" out. Why should someone checking Asian, African, Indian etc on a piece of paper make a difference? You parents were born here, you were born here, you have the same chance and opportunity as anyone else. Demanding an equal chance is the American way, and your right. Demanding to cut in front because of who you are, is un-American, not your right, and why many come to this country in the first place.

[Hamilton Reef]

Affirmative action backers win ruling on petitions

O'Brien said the petition drive's opponents were using the courts to harass the campaign, in hopes of discouraging and confusing supporters who are trying to collect 317,000 signatures by early summer.

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/affirm26_20040326.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Affirmative action split decisions draw slanted coverage

Monday roundup: Yet another glaring example of the media slanting news coverage was exhibited last week in the play given to reports about two conflicting lower court decisions concerning the Ward Connerly-backed anti-affirmative action petition drive that needs 317,000 valid signatures by July 6 to get onto the November ballot.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0403/30/b01-106135.htm

[2PawsRiver]

What amazes me most is that the petition drive does not end Affirmative Action or Preferential treatment based on race. The petetion drive is only to put it on the ballot so Michigan Citizens can vote on whether we do or do not want preferential treatment based on race.

We can each have our own opinions, but these groups that are trying to stop the petition not only support preferential treatment based on race, but don't support our right to vote on the issue.............actually what amazes me most is the number or people who just sit back on their haunches and let special interest groups decide for them that they can't or should not be able to vote on this issue.

In the political threads there are so many opinions, but few opportunities to actually take part in the process, yet here is one. Over 90 percent want to see race based preferential treatment end, but what percent are involved.

I have the petitions and will send them to who ever wants one. If your in the area I will bring one to you.........I have had one request. Saw one other post about having petitions, whats that make, three?

I think people hesitate because it involves race. There is nothing racist about wanting everybody treated equally, there is nothing racist about supporting the opportunity for Michigan Citizens to vote on the issue.

I, Mark Lundin of Hartford Michigan, want everybody to be treated equally, irregardless of their race or sex and I support the rights of Michigan Citizens to vote on this issue and I am not in the least bit ashamed to say it. I have no intention of sitting back and doing nothing and allowing others to decide on whether or not I can vote on it, I am going to participate in the process and try to make a positive change for the State of Michigan.................what are you going to do?

[Dick Graves]

Nice post Mark, they are in circulation in my neck of the woods, thanks for mailing them.

In my opinion affirmative action is like a sign on a "repair shop" door, which reads "PLEASE knock hard on the door-the bell does not work".:rolleyes:

[Moron]

2PawsRiver
Excellent post. Will PM you with contact info. Thanks.

[2PawsRiver]

Moron, will send two today. If you decide to make copies they have to be identical to the ones sent. Your best bet is Kinkos or some office supply store.

I also included two pages of information. Most is just general reading but there are some very important issues such as each signature must be from a registered voter from the same county, no abbreviations or ditto marks, dating the petition etc.

Dick, if you want this information I can send it to you also.

Thanks,

Mark

[Moron]

Thanks Mark.

Just for the record. My greatgrandparents from both sides imigrated to this great country in the late 1800s from Europe. Since I have no pedigree, If you ask me what my race is, well, I reckon I'm a member of the human race.
Whether you subscribe to creation, evolution, or some combination of both as the origin of mankind, it seems we are all of African origin.

I have a niece and nephew of mixed color. Rather than support "race" based incentives that might be of advantage to them. They prefer to not be imprinted with any stigma that might tend to make them appear in need of any special treatment or consideration. They are both wonderful human beings in need of nothing more than their pride and individuality to accomplish or compete in whatever it is they choose to pursue in life. The existence of affirmative action only serves to lessen the importance of whatever they do achieve.

Unlike proponents of affirmative action, my position is based on equality and individualism not race or gender.

[Hamilton Reef]

BAMN extremists may regret court ruling

A far left group called “By Any Means Necessary” — imagine the uproar if a right-wing group adopted such an inflammatory name — has wrangled an opinion out of an Ingham County circuit judge that the state Board of Canvassers “breached its duty” by approving petitions being circulated to bar racial preferences in public universities and hiring.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0404/02/a09-108076.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Affirmative action appeal is expedited

LANSING — The Michigan Court of Appeals ordered Wednesday that an appeal in the case of an anti-affirmative action petition be expedited.
The Appeals Court said all parties’ briefs and amicus briefs in the appeal are due no later than 14 days from Wednesday, or April 28.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0404/17/b02-123928.htm

[FishinJoe]

Let me know where I can find a petition in the Detroit area. I belive AA has been around lone enough (too long) and has been abused severly.

[2PawsRiver]

Fishinjoe, pm me an address and I will mail a petition to you with instructions on how to fill it out. Rather then just sign one, get ten signatures.

[2PawsRiver]

Have not had time to sit down and figure out how to reply to PMs yet, but have received two requests for petitions and mailed them 4-20-04. Included was a page about circulating petitions.

It is real important that you read the directions. There are a couple of things that will void the whole sheet of signatures if not done right....every person on each petition must be from the same county and after you get the last signature on the petition, you sign and date it and the date must be after the date of the last signature.

If you don't know for sure if the person live s in the City of or Township of, then leave that blank.

Who would have thought that getting something so simple onto a ballot would be so complex.

Take Care,

Mark

[GONE FISHIN(LARRY)]

fishin joe ithink i still have some pettions left,I'll have to check with the war department and she is fasta sleep right now,we live in Livonia

[Hamilton Reef]

It's not race, it's equality, Connerly says

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Ward Connerly started thinking about what was wrong with white people right after he led a campaign to undo affirmative action programs.

Of Irish, Native American and African-American heritage, Connerly wasn't bothered that his campaign for Proposition 209 to ban race and gender preferences in public university admissions and state hiring branded him a sellout with many blacks and Hispanics

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/conn5_20040505.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Connerly: Race-gender ballot plan will succeed

KALAMAZOO -- The national leader in the drive to ban government use of race and gender preferences guaranteed on Thursday that the issue will be placed before Michigan voters, if not this year, then in 2006.

http://www.freep.com/news/mich/conn7_20040507.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Vote on preferences may wait till '06
http://www.freep.com/news/mich/mcri29_20040529.htm

Organizers of a statewide drive to ban racial preferences in public university admissions and government hiring said Friday they have not given up hopes of putting the question on the November ballot, but aiming for the 2006 election is a "strong possibility."
State Rep. Leon Drolet, R-Clinton Township, co-chair of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, denied reports Friday the group has suspended a drive to collect 317,757 signatures by July 7. But he conceded, "we are talking about the possibility of not making it for the 2004 ballot."

Drolet said the campaign may hire more paid signature gatherers after the state Court of Appeals rules on a suit filed by affirmative action supporters claiming MCRI used misleading petition language. Oral arguments are set for June 8 and the court is expected to expedite its ruling.

Under state law, signatures must be collected within a 180-day period. So if the campaign doesn't collect enough signatures to put the issue before voters in November, it will drop the signatures collected in January and February and continue circulating petitions through August in an effort to qualify for the 2006 ballot.

Drolet said the campaign has been plagued with disorganization, internal discord, lack of funding and the illness of California businessman and activist Ward Connerly, its highest-profile supporter. He said about 80,000 signatures have been collected.

But George Washington, a Detroit attorney representing one of the groups that sued MCRI, said he doubts the campaign will succeed.

"Frankly, I think they're dead," Washington said. "No one has ever gotten 300,000 signatures in a few weeks."
Contact MARYANNE GEORGE at 734-665-5600.

[Hamilton Reef]

Ruling helps Michigan anti-affirmative action forces - 06/13/04

By Christopher M. Singer / The Detroit News

The state Court of Appeals has cleared the way for backers of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative to continue gathering signatures needed to get an anti-affirmative action measure on the November statewide ballot.

The group is seeking to bar any consideration of race in college admissions and state hiring.

California businessman Ward Connerly launched the petition drive in January, following the controversy surrounding the University of Michigan’s admissions policies. In that case, the U.S Supreme Court last year upheld U-M’s policy of considering race.

In March, an Ingham County Circuit Court ruled that the language on the petition form was misleading and should not have been approved. The case then went before the Court of Appeals.

In its opinion issued Friday, the appeals court ruled against a coalition of groups that support affirmative action, including the Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action, Integration and Immigrant Rights and Fight for Equality By Any Means Necessary, and Citizens for a United Michigan.

ALSO: Petition drive foes plan appeal - 06/13/04

http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0406/13/d01-181859.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Court: Whites should not face more obstacles in race discrimination suits - 06/12/04

LANSING -- A white officer who said the Battle Creek Police Department racially discriminated against him should not have a tougher time proving his case in court than a minority employee, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled Friday.
In a 5-2 decision, the court struck down a legal standard that distinguishes between plaintiffs on the basis of race

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0406/13/metro-181502.htm

[Hamilton Reef]

Affirmative action foes delay fight - 06/16/04

Petition drive now to target '06 election

“We’ll continue to collect (signatures) this fall and turn them in later in September or in early October for the 2006 ballot,” said Rep. Leon Drolet, R-Clinton Township, an organizer of the effort.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0406/16/a02-185141.htm

[Kevin]

Sunday, June 20, 2004
Affirmative Action: The Future
Poll suggests slim majority of Michiganders favors anti-affirmative action proposal
By Maureen Feighan / The Detroit News
Article LINK (http://www.detnews.com/2004/schools/0406/20/special-188959.htm)

But a January poll suggests a slim majority of Michigan voters support a ban on affirmative action in admissions and state hiring. A Detroit News poll conducted Jan. 7-12 of 400 registered voters found 64 percent of respondents favored a ban on affirmative action; 23 percent were opposed.

Since when is "64 favored" and "23 opposed" constitute a "slim majority?" :confused: :dizzy:

[ESOX]

Maybe the ones opposed were all obese?;)

[dogjaw]

I find it hillarious that there's a banner at the bottom of this thread to DiversityInc. I'm also sick and tired of people who go out of their way to be "different" and then whine and complain when others notice they're "different".

[kingfisher 11]

Did they tell you where they did the poll? Was it downtown Detroit or statewide. All I am saying is I can make any poll turn out the way I want it.

[FIJI]

1) "Liars figure, and figures lie."

and

2) "There are three kinds of lies, lies; damnable lies......and statistics"

[2PawsRiver]

Your right, the statistics may not be right, they are not consistant with the results of the poll associated with this thread, nor is it consistant with the poll in the Herald Palladium in Southwest Michigan which showed that 96 percent of Michiganders are against Affirmative Action.

Fortunately for those that rely on race as advantage it seems seems that a majority of people want something done to end AA, they just want somebody else to do it.

I registered as an Area Coordinator for the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, I had to chuckle when they called and asked me if they could post my name and how supprised they were when I said they could.

Seems the scariest word is the English language is not snakes, spiders, divorce, or demons.......it would be race.

[Moron]

Seems the scariest word is the English language is not snakes, spiders, divorce, or demons.......it would be race.

Agreed. :)
Here's a different perspective on the discrimination issue.

http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/Discrimination.php

[2PawsRiver]

Thanks Moron, an interesting read, thought I think he is pretty much full of crap :p

[Moron]

:) I'm just a sucker for any possible solutions that involve less government. :)

[Garden Bay]

Get rid of it. Getting a job, accepted to colleges, etc. should be based on a person's merit, not the color of their skin.

[2PawsRiver]

I agree with you Moron, I like the idea of less government, however in the article he uses the term Minority or refers to Minorities 11 times and states...........

"If you elect me as your president, I promise to end the economic discrimination that government regulations and licensing laws have imposed upon minorities"

Those government regs. and licensing laws apply to everybody not just Minorities, changes to reduce them should be done so as to effect everybody.

[Moron]

2Paws
I agree 100%.

[archie holst]

AA has ran it's course, it's time is over.

[Hamilton Reef]

Ballot petitions hit goal
Opponents of racial preferences in Mich. get enough signatures to make 2006 vote.

A group aiming to ban affirmative action programs in Michigan college admissions and government hiring intends to file petitions today calling for a 2006 ballot proposal, launching what promises to be a contentious, high-profile two-year campaign.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/politics/0501/06/B01-51948.htm

[2PawsRiver]

Yep, it has been a tough road, with a few bumps and obstacles, but none the less, alot of people have made it so that Michiganders can determine if race should be a factor in determining who gets jobs, education opportunity, government contracts etc.

It is one vote I look forward to casting. Not only because I believe strongly in the concept, but because I played a small part in making it happen. :)

[Bwana]

Yep, it has been a tough road, with a few bumps and obstacles, but none the less, alot of people have made it so that Michiganders can determine if race should be a factor in determining who gets jobs, education opportunity, government contracts etc.

It is one vote I look forward to casting. Not only because I believe strongly in the concept, but because I played a small part in making it happen. :)
People should be selected and/or promoted based on ability and/or performance.

I look forward to this as well. Didn't even know this was coming down the pipe.

[eyecatcher]

People should be selected and/or promoted based on ability and/or performance.

I look forward to this as well. Didn't even know this was coming down the pipe.

I agree its about time. Maybe by putting these types of things behind us we can get past race and this country can start to achive Dr Kings dream.

[MDHunter]

Its way past time to end this unequal system. Its pretty sad that a better qualified person is bypassed in the name of so-called equality. This in itself is the WORST form of discrimination. Quotas for race, have created a seperate group of highly qulified, yet un-employable people, as well as a group of highly qualified, and highly motivated students that can not get the education that they desire, simply because of thier skin color. This is WRONG.

Affirmative action needs to be outlawed NATIONWIDE... lets begin it here in the great state of Michigan.
OK, you guys need a whipping boy - so here goes. :)

I'm not sure if I'm totally in favor of how AA is used, but I'm also concerned about getting rid of it totally when so much bias still exists in this country. I know that NOT ONE of us one this forum discriminates against others, it's just the rest of the uninformed masses around the US.....

An unequal system.....would that be the system that didn't allow women to vote for so many years (they didn't get those rights until FIGHTING for them in the early 1900s); that didn't allow women to work at equal jobs, until they were needed in WWII when our men (and some of you brave souls on this Forum) were off fighting the Nazis; the system that had separate water fountains for blacks, and wouldn't allow them in many restaurants and on public transit, well into the 1960s; is this the unequal system we're talking about?

We had quotas for race and sex well through the last century - as long as you were white (or appeared to be) and were a man, you had a SHOT at an opportunity. If you were a woman or non-Caucasian male, you were LUCKY if you EVER got an opportunity.

I agree in principle that the most qualified people should get the first opportunity in most cases - but AA was originated to help adjust for the over-century-long advantage afforded white males in this country, and if you think things are equal now, you're living in a sheltered world. I work for an international consulting firm that's been around for over 75 years, and before that I worked for the largest employee-owned science and engineering firm in the US, and I can tell you first-hand from being a manager in these corporations, that perhaps equality has occurred (and in some cases even gone too far in the other direction) in blue-collar America, but in white collar America there's still a ways to go. In the 1990's, the CEO of my company was forced to pay a $3.2M payout to a woman whom he'd passed over for a significant leadership position, because he said to someone (who later testified) that "I'm just not comfortable working with women." This was the 1990s guys, the CEO in what claimed to be one of the more employee-friendly companies in the country - are we fully equal yet? How do you think the women managers in that company felt, about their chances of rising into top management?

I know that most of the abuse of AA occurs in middle-class labor categories, and thats unfortunate indeed. But the white-collar world is still dominated by white males - when THAT platground becomes more equal, then I'll possibly favor re-examining AA.

I understand everyone's frustration with AA abusem having some personal friends who have been subjected to that very abuse. After empathizing with them, I also feel compelled to say that although they might disagree, it will take a few decades more until that's truly the case. We can't expect women and minority males to be invited to the race for 2-3 decades, and then assume they should have caught up with our 100+ year advantage, and do away with any legislation that tried to correct the history of slavery and women's suffrage.

Ok fellas, I just put the big target on my chest - 100 yards from a benchrest, I know you're all fighting for the first shot - so take it away! :)

And although we might not agree on this issue, I appreciate the opinions of EVERY one of you, as my fellow Americans and ESPECIALLY my fellow sportsmen.

[Ranger Ray]

Too much of any one thing is bad. Because as a society we have had the all or nothing mentality driven into our brains as the only justifiable means to the end results, compromise is forgotten. Today’s winner is tomorrows loser, welcome to America.

[Hamilton Reef]

Affirmative Action by definition is racist sexist discrimination against white males. White males are the minority in the total US population. Discrimination against minorities is not politically correct.

Population Resource Center
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/changingnation/changingnation.html

[2PawsRiver]

MDHunter your entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong. ;)

[MDHunter]

Affirmative Action by definition is racist sexist discrimination against white males. White males are the minority in the total US population. Discrimination against minorities is not politically correct.

Population Resource Center
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/changingnation/changingnation.html
I'm not disagreeing with your take on discrimination....but am not clear how the attachment supports the "white males are a minority" claim. The article states that whites overall are now a minority in 48 of the 100 largest cities, but I don't see other supporting evidence in the article - I apologize in advance, if I overlooked it.

And in terms of the American business environment (which is a major element that AA was developed to address), white males are certainly the controlling majority, and will be for years to come. That's why I personally believe that it's too early to eliminate AA - perhaps things are much more equal at the levels visible to most of us, but not in the boardrooms and halls of power.....my personal opinion is, once that area is more diverse, then I will consider the landscape more equal, and would be more comfortable considering eliminating things like AA.

And thanks for your lenience 2PAWS - IF I am wrong in this case (which I think history will be the judge, in years to come), it certainly wouldn't be my first time! :)

[Bwana]

I'm not sure if I'm totally in favor of how AA is used, but I'm also concerned about getting rid of it totally when so much bias still exists in this country. Please document some of these current official discriminitory policies. Either Federal, State, Local or Private Sector.



An unequal system.....would that be the system that didn't allow women to vote for so many years (they didn't get those rights until FIGHTING for them in the early 1900s); that didn't allow women to work at equal jobs, until they were needed in WWII when our men (and some of you brave souls on this Forum) were off fighting the Nazis; the system that had separate water fountains for blacks, and wouldn't allow them in many restaurants and on public transit, well into the 1960s; is this the unequal system we're talking about? Can you say history? Can you name one official policy that has been implemented or enforced in the last 40 years?

A current generation of Minority's and Women have been brought up with an advantage over other classes. Discrimination wasn't right before and it isn't right now.

You condemn previous "unequal systems" yet you condone the one in place today. :confused:


I work for an international consulting firm that's been around for over 75 years, and before that I worked for the largest employee-owned science and engineering firm in the US, and I can tell you first-hand from being a manager in these corporations, that perhaps equality has occurred (and in some cases even gone too far in the other direction) in blue-collar America, but in white collar America there's still a ways to go. I worked in the Corporate Finance/Global Wholesale Division of two International Banks before I started my company. The Banks at least, have actively recruited Black Candidates for "exempt" positions but have been unsuccessful. The number of Black Students that major in Finance related fields are too miniscule to even make up their percentage in the population as a whole (roughly 13%). Therefore "Commrcial Banking" is considered one of the "Whitest" industries by A.C.O.R.N. and the others who actively target Banks. Now, due to this shortage, pretty much anyone classified as non-caucasian gets "pushed" along. There are some Candidates that I have personally witnessed get pushed into the Lender Ranks. Other than causeing resentment, as you referenced with your friends, there are some practical issues as well. As a Lending Officer you have great latitude to screw things up within your portfolio that may be as large as $1 Billion in some cases. I personally witnessed one candidate that was pushed into a position, enter into a "Hedged" SWAP Agreement (Custom Futures Contract) but unfortunately got the math wrong and therefore wasn't as hedged as she thought. Came in Monday and was in tears because she had to explain a $30 Million loss in the interbank market even though she was "hedged' (you need committee approval for open positions). For a $30 Million loss "normal" people would get walking papers.

I have seen the effects of these push strategies and I think it is dangerous and wrong.


In the 1990's, the CEO of my company was forced to pay a $3.2M payout to a woman whom he'd passed over for a significant leadership position, because he said to someone (who later testified) that "I'm just not comfortable working with women." This is just stupidity.


I know that most of the abuse of AA occurs in middle-class labor categories, and thats unfortunate indeed. But the white-collar world is still dominated by white males - when THAT platground becomes more equal, then I'll possibly favor re-examining AA. "white-collar world is still dominated by white males". You don't deserve to get to threse levels if you don't deserve it. As my prior example pointed out, there can be dire consequences.


We can't expect women and minority males to be invited to the race for 2-3 decades, and then assume they should have caught up with our 100+ year advantage, and do away with any legislation that tried to correct the history of slavery and women's suffrage. Are you telling me that I have a "100 year advantage" over a minority candidate of the same age? I have known nothing but Affirmative Action throughout my lifetime. I have never never been a racist nor do I desire to become one, but I think it is time for a change.

As for the women...explain the number of CEO's that are now women as compared to twenty years ago.

[2PawsRiver]

MDHunter you would agree with providing some advantages to white males to bring the racial makeup of Professional Basketball in line with the racial make up of society in general.

Perhaps if a white male makes a basket it could count for double points, 4 and 6 comparatively, or maybe a bigger, lower basket for white males. Would make white males quite attractive to professional teams.

[Cobra]

A: I'm not a racist and believe that the best person should get the prize, period. It needs to go yet it's to late to be of any value to me. Went through tons of crap since graduating college (late '70s, Dean's list for a couple of years) being told that I was the best or leading candidate for a position or job BUT!!!!!!!!. Was informed, in interviews and off the record, that many jobs, private and public sector, were being held for "Special Candidates" which was of course is AA. Some of these jobs took years to fill since they were open all the time. My all time favorite response (more than once) is being "over qualified" for a position where a full college degree was a minimum requirment then find out a "special candidate" still in a Jr. College was handed the spot. Believe they went through a new "special candidate" every 6 months, probably still are. Have been passed over for promotion and larger raises, per management and off the record of course, to "special candidates" to promote a more balanced work force or to help a single mother financially strapped out. Then get asked to help them along, give me a friggin' break. Never worked a day in the field I graduated college in, then to have it used against me took a long time to get used to. Still in touch with many of the guys I went to college with and they're in the same boat as well. Underemployed and over educated. Get rid of it and give the next generation of White males a chance to compete on a level playing field.

[MDHunter]

Please document some of these current official discriminitory policies. Either Federal, State, Local or Private Sector.
By 'bias'I was referring to people personal prejudices, not to any official legislation.

Can you say history? Can you name one official policy that has been implemented or enforced in the last 40 years? A current generation of Minority's and Women have been brought up with an advantage over other classes. Discrimination wasn't right before and it isn't right now. You condemn previous "unequal systems" yet you condone the one in place today. :confused:
I agree that discrimination isn't right - but I also believe that giving one generation of minorities and women preferential treatment for some workforce opportunities does NOT level the playing field. When I see a little more balance in the boardroom, then I would favor doing away with the legislation.

"white-collar world is still dominated by white males". You don't deserve to get to threse levels if you don't deserve it. As my prior example pointed out, there can be dire consequences.
This just isn't true, you're a very lucky person if you didn't ever personally witness someone getting into a position of influence by personal relationships and not by earning it.

Are you telling me that I have a "100 year advantage" over a minority candidate of the same age? I have known nothing but Affirmative Action throughout my lifetime. I have never never been a racist nor do I desire to become one, but I think it is time for a change.
This is the toughest part of the whole deal for me. I totally agree that YOU don't have a 100 year advantage - but I also believe that as a whole, we're still comparatively better off in terms of workplace advancement than women and minorities. I'm looking at farther back and forward than just me, but I also grant that this is an odd way to look at an issue.

As for the women...explain the number of CEO's that are now women as compared to twenty years ago.
I suggest instead that we compare the wages and salaries of women and men with relatively equivalent experience and education - if a SINGLE ONE of those studies has ever found that those pay rates are equivalent, I've never heard of it and would be happy to be informed!

[MDHunter]

MDHunter you would agree with providing some advantages to white males to bring the racial makeup of Professional Basketball in line with the racial make up of society in general.

Perhaps if a white male makes a basket it could count for double points, 4 and 6 comparatively, or maybe a bigger, lower basket for white males. Would make white males quite attractive to professional teams.
2Paws this is a tough one to debate, I'll grant you that! But I bet if we were to look at the number of minority/women senior leaders (President/CEO/GM/etc) on pro sports teams, we would find quite a discrepancy, even with the changes made in the past 10-15 years.

And don't anyone forget, that I'm a MARYLAND resident, not a Michigan guy - so I won't even be able to cast a vote! But it seemed that this post had no dissenting opinions, so I offered up just to engage in the healthy discussion and to learn a little more - which I have.

[Bwana]

By 'bias'I was referring to people personal prejudices, not to any official legislation.
I know. But your answer made my point. But really, how do you measure personal prejudices? Do you send out a survey asking who is the resident racist? Who is the sexist?


I agree that discrimination isn't right - but I also believe that giving one generation of minorities and women preferential treatment for some workforce opportunities does NOT level the playing field.
It provided that generation with the ability to catch up. As for future generations, they are going to have to compete. There are no structural impedimants to women and minorities anymore. If they display raw ambition they can go just as far as white men.

You avoided the Banking issue. What do you do in an industry that minorities (other than Asian & Indians) don't gravitate towards? You will never hit a "number' due to the lack of candidates so therefore quotas will never go away.


This just isn't true, you're a very lucky person if you didn't ever personally witness someone getting into a position of influence by personal relationships and not by earning it.
I was in huge companies (100,000 plus). I witnessed it but I did something about it. I went out and got my IOTFC certification;) .


This is the toughest part of the whole deal for me. I totally agree that YOU don't have a 100 year advantage - but I also believe that as a whole, we're still comparatively better off in terms of workplace advancement than women and minorities. I'm looking at farther back and forward than just me, but I also grant that this is an odd way to look at an issue.
A whole generation has been pulled towards equality. Sooner or later they are going to have to compete or there will be a backlash.


I suggest instead that we compare the wages and salaries of women and men with relatively equivalent experience and education - if a SINGLE ONE of those studies has ever found that those pay rates are equivalent, I've never heard of it and would be happy to be informed!
You got me here. Women tend to be paid less, no arguments. I have thought about this a good deal because it just doesn't seem right. But after I started a company I have noticed that men are 10x more aggressive in personal negotiations and I am wondering if this doesn't have something to do with it. Now there are women that make it to the top and there are women that get paid the same in business so this shows that there are not structural impediments. But I am really wondering if this isn't due to lack of agression in many cases. Just a theory...who knows.

[adjusted3]

Again out on a limb-----

Man we have covered this ground. AND I still belive in AA.

Mark, you and I will still go fishing together........ and we wil have fun.

But, AA is alive and well, we recently had a job opening for a high level position. I was in the running, but knew I was beat out by 3 others that had more training and years then I had. Not a problem. I was very comfortable in the fact that the person that got it was the right person for the position. What concerned me was that they interviewed a minority (who happends to be a very close friend) for the position who has much less experiance and training as well as years in the business then I. We BOTH never dreamed that he would be chosen given the nature of the job let alone an interview. He was passed over. The only reason was that management was required to interview him was that he was a minority. It was a huge insult. Imagine going into an interview knowing the only reason that you are there is that you are a minority. No chance on being appointed, just to fill the numbers.

Now------


We have had many conversations over this. We both agree that he would of never been given the chance had it not been for AA. We also agree that it had been to my detriment. I was considered but what I brought to the table was not what they were looking for. What we both agree is that as MDhunter pointed out, untill white collar jobs get equal in the industy, we need to force the upper levels to at least look at minorities even though they may not get the job at hand. Untill we are all on a level playing field, I for one will fight for the little guy!

Now you may say-------

exactly why we need to abolish AA based on my story.

Sorry, I disagree.

I failed to mention that the top 3 for this position were 1 female, (who had years, time, training and the backing of her peers), One white male (whose pointer points south) The most trained and the most knowelgble and frankly, the one I would have chosen. And another white male who DID get the position and yet knowledgeble but was a junior to all others including me.

Sorry I just dont get it. even with AA, we still get around the issues. And we want to get rid of it? My wife works 45 hrs a week. When they start paying her what I make, and she has a college degree, I don't, We will talk

Mark

[eyecatcher]

You got me here. Women tend to be paid less, no arguments. I have thought about this a good deal because it just doesn't seem right. But after I started a company I have noticed that men are 10x more aggressive in personal negotiations and I am wondering if this doesn't have something to do with it. Now there are women that make it to the top and there are women that get paid the same in business so this shows that there are not structural impediments. But I am really wondering if this isn't due to lack of agression in many cases. Just a theory...who knows.
I have to agree with that. A few years ago I hired a very competent lady to run my office. She was very meek in her wage negotiations. I started her at about 20% over the local prevailing rate. Based on her experence knowledge, and maturity. She got a lot of static from other office managers in the area (her pay rate was made known by a bank local teller small town). I got hell from other employers, That is until I told them to mind their own business that it was not my fault they were that were so cheap. But I do believe its time to get rid AA. discrimination is wrong no matter the good intentions of the people pushing it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[2PawsRiver]

Mark, maybe your making too much money ;)

See you on the river sometime. Me, I'm headed for the Manistee Tuesday morning. Have spawn sacks, flies, steelhead skein and will be getting wax worms and minnows, am sure to catch something and will treat all fish equally :), must admit though that I would prefer Steelhead.

[2PawsRiver]

Just thought I would pass along some info regarding the MCRI.

MCRI Thanks You for Helping Set New Michigan Record for Signature-Collection Turn-In


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm writing to thank all volunteers, supporters, and donors who have helped us out over the past year. 2004 had its ups and downs, but I'm happy to announce that we are beginning 2005 with an with the overwhelming step forward. On January 6th, we turned-in 508,202 signatures to the Secretary of State for certification. This is more than 190,000 signatures over the necessary 317,757 to qualify for the ballot, and sets a new record for number of signatures turned-in for a proposed Constitutional amendment.
Our opposition will have to think very hard about the prospect of attempting to successfully "challenge" during the signature-counting process. Despite our certainty that the Initiative will be certified and appear on the November 2006 ballot, we are still preparing for any obstruction our opposition might throw our way. Your continued help will insure that the opposition's legal maneuvers and obstruction will fail.



We Still Need Your Help!


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Your participation and assistance is still needed. Our final turn-in from paid gatherers was large and the administrative demands at the end all demand additional funds in the next few weeks. Organizing the campaign and preparing for 2006 will require preparation now, as well. You can continue to contribute by mail or through our secure website donation system,

We've already started organizing the grassroots support effort, and will be looking for as many people as possible to get the word out. Use our website's "refer a friend" system (their contact information is kept private by an automatic system until they choose to respond a message from us the system generates once).

Left-over signatures, petition forms, and concluding details.


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Anyone who has stray signatures that may have been collected in the last days or didn't reach us for whatever reason should either mail them to us or destroy them. Unfortunately, although we received most of what we expected, when dealing with such large numbers a few may have not have made it. Given the media announcements in the last week, we've had several new volunteers request petitions which we knew we couldn't mail out in time. If you are one of these indivduals, you can still help us in many ways.
Again, THANK YOU to all!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, I would like to express tremendous gratitude to everyone who helped. I wish I could personally thank each of the over 1,700 individuals who volunteered or contributed time, support, and resources; and the many full-time staff circulating and processing petitions. There are also many who have devoted hundreds of hours to the Initiative and I know I can’t thank them enough.

Once again, thank you for your efforts to this date.

Very truly,

Jennifer Gratz

[MDHunter]

You avoided the Banking issue. What do you do in an industry that minorities (other than Asian & Indians) don't gravitate towards? You will never hit a "number' due to the lack of candidates so therefore quotas will never go away.
Bwana, I stayed away from that one 'cause I lack knowledge related to the banking industry, and I don't like to sound TOTALLY ignorant. :lol: But, I do acknowledge your point that if minorities and women have not gravitated to certain professions, that clouds the picture even more than it's already clouded, and that placing people (any people of any race or gender) into positions for which they're not adequately prepared, is a risk and doesn't help anything. Maybe we could get away from industry-specific quotas and find a way to focus on total white-collar quotas or numbers - I have no idea, other than to say it's a tough issue.


You got me here. Women tend to be paid less, no arguments. I have thought about this a good deal because it just doesn't seem right. But after I started a company I have noticed that men are 10x more aggressive in personal negotiations and I am wondering if this doesn't have something to do with it. Now there are women that make it to the top and there are women that get paid the same in business so this shows that there are not structural impediments. But I am really wondering if this isn't due to lack of agression in many cases. Just a theory...who knows.
This is the theme of my resistance to dropping AA immediately, but again I wasn't able to express it well early on. I think that a female or minority job applicant that walks in the door TODAY has AT LEAST an equal chance of being considered - but due to generations of discrimination and being accustomed to not having equal footing, their assertiveness, negotiating skills, and leadership skills may not yet be equal when viewed as a group - and I personally believe that (except for the naturally assertive leaders) THIS is the piece that will take a little longer - for them to be comfortable acting as equals across the workforce.

I just want to take a minute to thank all of you for debating this is a non-combative manner - I know this is a very tough issue, that has touched many of you personally in your own work experience. Your ability to debate the merits in a calm and non-combative manner, with someone who doesn't even live in Michigan, demonstrates that you have indeed put a good deal of thought into this issue, and have good reasons for your beliefs.

[Fishfoote]

Wow 8 pages and still going - Good for us! IMHO - get rid of it.

Less Qualified workers/students = less competitive business/economy for everyone.

[Bwana]

I think that a female or minority job applicant that walks in the door TODAY has AT LEAST an equal chance of being considered This my friend, means that Affirmative Action has done what was intended. It has removed the structual bias.


but due to generations of discrimination and being accustomed to not having equal footing, their assertiveness, negotiating skills, and leadership skills may not yet be equal when viewed as a group - and I personally believe that (except for the naturally assertive leaders) THIS is the piece that will take a little longer - for them to be comfortable acting as equals across the workforce. I don't buy into this at all. If candidates are not natural leaders or assertive they have no business at the top of the "food chain" regardless of sex or race. "Pushing" candiates has consequences. And frankly, you can teach skills but you cannot teach attitude. Meaning, someone hungry and inexperienced will win out over unmotovated/meek and skilled.


I just want to take a minute to thank all of you for debating this is a non-combative manner - I know this is a very tough issue, that has touched many of you personally in your own work experience. Your ability to debate the merits in a calm and non-combative manner, with someone who doesn't even live in Michigan, demonstrates that you have indeed put a good deal of thought into this issue, and have good reasons for your beliefs. GENERALLY, if it is not about Deer Management, Cougars or Wolves it is conducted in a civil tone. However, these three previously mentioned topics tend to be more emotional. Thats not to say threads don't become intense at times!

[Hamilton Reef]

I was recently asked by a former politician what my position on affirmative action was. Here was my reply.

Affirmative Action by definition is racist sexist discrimination against white males. White males are the minority in the total US population. Discrimination against minorities is not politically correct.
Population Resource Center
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/changingnation/changingnation.html

[Bwana]

I was recently asked by a former politician what my position on affirmative action was. Here was my reply.

Affirmative Action by definition is racist sexist discrimination against white males. White males are the minority in the total US population. Discrimination against minorities is not politically correct.
Population Resource Center
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/changingnation/changingnation.html
Clever response!

[Hamilton Reef]

U-M must pay $672,000 for lawyer fees in race cases
Students' attorneys had sought $2 million; university spent $10 million defending itself.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/schools/0501/28/A01-72848.htm

A federal judge has ordered the University of Michigan to pay $672,000 in attorneys' fees to the lawyers of two students who successfully challenged the university's use of race in admissions.
U.S. District Judge Patrick Duggan on Thursday awarded the fees, but reduced the amount sought by lawyers for the Center for Individual Rights from $2 million for several reasons, including excessive hours billed. He also eliminated billing for time spent talking to reporters.

Terry Pell, CIR's president, was pleased with Duggan's ruling and will push for more.

"We look forward to secure- ing damages for the applicants who were unconstitutionally denied admission by the University of Michigan," Pell said.

The center represented prospective students Jennifer Gratz and Patrick Hamacher. In June 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court narrowly upheld the use of race in college admissions, but struck down a point system used by U-M's Literature, Science and the Arts School.

U-M lawyers said they were happy the judge reduced the center's request.

U-M spent more than $10 million defending itself in the Law School and undergraduate cases.

Note all the background articles connect to this article.

[2PawsRiver]

U.S. Supreme Court narrowly upheld the use of race in college admissions,

And thankfully that will not be around for much longer. :)

[Hamilton Reef]

Preference ban group gets money
Most comes from Californian in ballot initiative

February 2, 2005, BY DAWSON BELL, FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

The group aiming to ban the use of race and gender preferences in Michigan received contributions from hundreds of people in Michigan and around the country, too, but still relied mostly on support from California businessman and activist Ward Connerly to collect petition signatures, according to campaign finance reports filed this week.

The Michigan Civil Rights Initiative received $545,693 from a committee headed and largely funded by Connerly, according to the reports. MCRI raised more than $700,000 last year, most of the remainder coming from small individual donors. Most of the money was used to pay a Southfield company that specializes in collecting petition signatures for ballot proposals.

The MCRI petition drive, launched after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the right of the University of Michigan to consider race in admissions decisions, is aimed at amending the state constitution to ban the use of race and gender in public hiring and contracting, and university admissions.

MCRI spokesman Chetly Zarko said the campaign overall had received more than 1,400 individual donations, and that more than half were from Michiganders.

"We relied on Ward for a lot of help," Zarko said. "But hundreds of people from Michigan also had the courage to contribute. Our opposition consistently says there are no grassroots in this campaign. We've laid that to rest."

The committee also received donations from several Republican state House lawmakers and their political action committees, including $10,000 from a PAC associated with House Speaker Craig DeRoche, R-Novi.

MCRI submitted more than 500,000 petition signatures last month. If 317,000 are certified as registered voters the issue will be placed on the November 2006 ballot.

The measure is opposed by a coalition of civic, business, labor and religious organizations and by Gov. Jennifer Granholm.

David Waymire, spokesman for the coalition, said Tuesday he believes the money contributed by Connerly's committee is being illicitly channeled through a nonprofit enterprise to disguise its real source. The campaign would not have survived without Connerly, Waymire said.

The coalition also filed a finance report but didn't report any contributions.