Long range shooting

[BEAGLEMAN]

I have a question I'm sure will stir up a few people. I own a TC Black Diamond muzzleloader equipped with a Leupold vari-x11 3x9 scope and a Marlin Slugmaster 12 ga s/gun with a Leupold vari-x11 1x4 scope. I shoot a 240 gr. sabot with 2-50 gr. pyrodex pellets with my TC and 3" Winchester sabots in my Marlin. What do you consider the maximum effective range for these guns. I have both these guns
zeroed in at 100 yds and they are both very accurate. I have taken deer at 125 yds with the Marlin using a tree as a rest and was wondering if anyone using these guns can help me out. This is just for my own curiosity, I am not comfortable shooting any farther than distances I have practiced at and feel 125 yds is about my max.


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[jduck]

I've seen both muzzle loaders and shotguns accurate 150-200 yards. My suggestion would be to go out and shoot at these ranges and find how much your group drops. Only way you will know where your bullet will hit.

[Pat Eddinger]

Beagleman,
I also have the T/C Black diamond(What a smoke pole!)and have done some oddball tinkering with it.Your load of 2 pellets and a 240 gives you around 1700fps at the muzzle.
The problem is that because the bullet has the profile of a UPS truck it bleeds velocity quickly and can only be made up by going to a heavier bullet(More momentum) or going to a streamlined bullet,or combining both,or jacking up initial velocity's by going to 3 pellets.This way impact out yonder on a deer or other large critter will result in a humane kill.
For just plinking fun,I have found that 2 pellets and a 300grSierra .429 in the T/C Black mag sabot,will allow really impressive groups at 200m,but... drop from a 100yd zero is close to 16" which comes to 32 clicks of elevation on your Leupie scope.Going to 3 pellets makes accuracy drop a bit,but you don't drop as much,closer to 12" difference between 100 and 200m.
If you do any woodchuck blasting the 2 pellet load works great,but I would have reservations on deer at that range and velocity.
Stoney point makes a turret knob for your Leupie that will allow for easier elevation changes and then back to a known zero when you're done.Good luck to ya!Cheers!Pat

[Nimrod]

Beagleman, fist of all I say practice, practice, practice!!! I have a Knight Wolverine with a 2x7 Burris and shoot .45cal 300gr XTPs. over 120gr of Goex catrige BLACK POWDER. I'm sighted in 4" high at 100 yards. I have a 200 yard shooting range marked every 25 yards. I can shoot a 2" group out to 150 yards, and have shot a 3" group at 200 yards.
I use the duplex in the scope to judge the distance, at 150 yards the deers body fills it on 7 power.

I shot a doe at 170 paces 2 years ago and it went through both lungs and she piled up in 50 yards, no problem at that distance.

You need to know your rainbow!!!!

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God Bless and may your aim be true

[msiebers]

Pat,
awhile back we disscused this rifle and loads just after I bought mine.
Since then, I have spent quite a few hours on the range and have yet to get this gun to shoot consistently. If you remember, I was going to try some of the Pyrodex Select powder and see if I could get the same results as you from the pellets.
Well so far I can tell you that the Deer in Michigan are quite safe from me this year. Matter of fact I am quite sure I saw a few sneaking away from the back of the side berms on the range one day after watching me shoot.
Can whitetail Deer "Snicker"?
I am sure thats what I heard.
Anyway, I started with Hornaday 240 Hp's. I had an old box that I used to get the gun on paper first that are a little different from the new XTP bullets. Once I figured I had it close at 50 yards and 100 grains of powder, I went out to 100 yards and fired the same loads. I couldnt even get two rounds hitting even close to a group.
I moved up to 120 grains with the same slugs and still not much improvement.
I switched to the black sabots and the XTP 240 grain bullets and things seemed to go DOWN hill from there.
I also noticed that I could only get off about three shots without running a patch and solvent down the barrel followed by a few dry ones.
The only thing that would hit close was 300 grain XTP's but even then they were spaced about 4 inches apart vertically.
This week I took the scope off and replaced it with a newer one to see if that was a problem so we'll see what happens.
I'm a bit at a loss for what else it could be. Shoot, my old Renegade shot better than this thing. :rolleyes:
I cant imagine those Pellets making that much of a difference, I used to use the plain old RS powder, round balls and spitball patches with better accuracy.

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Mike

[dogjaw]

Beagleman,
For down range power, a heavier bullet than 240 grain would be better. As the previous responders stated, a 240 grain .45 bullet slows quickly out of the barrel. If it's 1700 fps out of the barrel, you have the performance of a 44 mag. rifle.
I'd look up the energy delivered for the specific powder charge, bullet type/weight, and distance.
Here's an example, using Speer bullets and chart.
.44, 240 gr, 1700 fps muzzle = 921 ft.lbs @ 100 yds, 732 ft.lbs @ 150 yds.

30-30, 170 gr, 2000 fps muzzle = 1157 ft. lbs @ 100 yds, and 880 ft.lbs. @ 200 yds.
I don't know too many folks that would use a 30-30 out to 200 yds (880 ft.lbs) on deer.
So given 1700 fps muzzle, I'd be reluctant to extend beyond 125 with the .44 cal (~820 ft.lbs).
Dog

[Pat Eddinger]

Msiebers,
Sorry to hear of your problems.Something just ain't right.The scope and mounts followed by action screws are the first places to look.Also try some 300gr bullets at the higher velocitys.Pellets just plain work in my experience.If it continues to foul out with only 3 shots send it back to T/C.Call first and tell the good folks what's going on.They are real good about taking care of such matters.Still it should not do this,and there is no excuse.
The black mag sabot and a 300gr seems to be the ticket with several of my customers,both with 2 or 3 pellets.Yep Deer can giggle,grab their crotch point the finger and stick their tounge out at you.They do it to me regularly,when I hunt with the handgun,usually at about 125yds or so.Heck I have this Momma doe on my place that just gives me dirty looks and walks by with her two yearling fawns in tow.I reckon she knows I wont whack her,but still dosn't like me much.Good luck with that Black diamond,and don't give up on it yet.Cheers!Pat

[msiebers]

Ok, Ive picked up a few of the 50gn pellets. I already had some 300 gn. .430 bullets. Both the Hornady XTP's and Sierra JSP's.
I'm not ready to give up yet. My dad has the same rifle and his is shooting great.
He started out with a new scope however, a Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5 X 32, so I am still suspecting it was the old 3-9 sportview I had on there. (might be a good candidate for putting on Redfield mounts) :p
As far as the fouling goes, I started to clean after three shots because I notice the loads going down a bit hard. I'm not sure if I could have continued shooting or not, but I figure it wouldnt hurt to swab the barrel down.


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Mike

[msiebers]

Pat, I got that Black Diamond shooting better today. Must have been the scope. I switched to the Black TC Mag sabots too and they do work much better.
I only shot out to 100 yards, but that is the farthest I can see where I hunt anyway. More likely I will get shots within 75 yards.

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Mike

[BEAGLEMAN]

Originally posted by dogjaw:
Beagleman,
For down range power, a heavier bullet than 240 grain would be better. As the previous responders stated, a 240 grain .45 bullet slows quickly out of the barrel. If it's 1700 fps out of the barrel, you have the performance of a 44 mag. rifle.
I'd look up the energy delivered for the specific powder charge, bullet type/weight,
and distance.
Here's an example, using Speer bullets and chart.
.44, 240 gr, 1700 fps muzzle = 921 ft.lbs @ 100 yds, 732 ft.lbs @ 150 yds.

30-30, 170 gr, 2000 fps muzzle = 1157 ft. lbs @ 100 yds, and 880 ft.lbs. @ 200 yds.
I don't know too many folks that would use a 30-30 out to 200 yds (880 ft.lbs) on deer.
So given 1700 fps muzzle, I'd be reluctant to extend beyond 125 with the .44 cal (~820 ft.lbs).
Dog

Dogjaw,
These are the stats. from TC booklet I have.
240gr "XTP' mag sabot, 100gr Pyrodex pellets(2@50gr) 1868fps muzzle @0 yds 1860ft/lbs energy. 1539fps @ 100 yds 1261ft/lbs energy. 1399fps @ 150yds 1043ft/lbs energy.
Everything I have read and heard tells me for a quick and as humane kill as possible we should have at least 1000ft/lbs of energy.
I'd like to get anyone's opinion on this, I just would like to know for future use.
Thanks.