Ever Shoot a Dog?

[Bow Hunter Brandon]

I have read several hot debates on this subject on boards well consider this it ran in my local paper and the guy who did it hurt every one of us and our opertunities to hunt.
taken from

Dog Recovering after arrow attack. (http://www.hometownlife.com/news/TheDailyPressandArgus/default.asp?Page=10-23-2003/FullStory/10_23_03.1st.14.htm)

Friendly dog survives attack
By Jim Totten
DAILY PRESS & ARGUS


Jeep wouldn't bother a soul.

The 100-pound Rottweiler is kind and loves to be petted, according to its owners, Handy Township residents Galyna and Gary Bialke.

"He wants to play, lick and kiss," said Galyna. "He's my baby."

So the couple was shocked when Jeep came home at 6:40 p.m. Oct. 9 with blood pouring from a gaping hole in his shoulder. Bialkes discovered Jeep had been shot with a carbon arrow and the tip was lodged against his spine.

"I thought he was going to die from lack of blood," Gary said. "I didn't think he had that much blood in him."

The Bialkes rushed Jeep to the Fowlerville Veterinary Clinic where doctors successfully removed the tip after a couple of hours of surgery. Doctors said the dog was lucky to have survived.

Gary said he believes whoever shot Jeep did so on purpose. Based on the wound, he said the individual shot Jeep while facing him directly, causing the arrow to cut his lip and enter through his shoulder. He said it appears whoever shot Jeep did so while up in a tree, such as someone in a deer stand. The season for bow hunters has opened.

The couple called the Livingston County Sheriff's Department to file a complaint. However, police indicated it would be hard to catch someone and prove the case.

Gary said he understands, adding, "It's almost like you have to catch the guy in the act."



Continued on page 4

He said Jeep and their other dog, Luke, were outside for only 10 minutes before Jeep returned home dripping blood. He said the dog had pulled out the arrow except for the tip. Although the couple own 16 acres outside Fowlerville, Gary said he believes Jeep had wandered off their property when he was shot.

Even though Jeep was off his property, Gary cannot understand why anyone would hurt him. He takes Jeep to visit his brother, who lives at a Howell nursing home, and the dog has never showed any signs of aggression.

"(Jeep) just loves people," he said.

Bialke doesn't plan on letting his dogs run free anymore, and the couple will keep a closer eye on Jeep and Luke. Gary put up a fence between his home and his neighbor's property so the dogs have an enclosed area. He also realizes the gun season is coming up.

"I can't believe how people can do this," said Galyna. She said the incident has scared her so much that she's uncomfortable walking around on her property.

"If someone shoots a dog, maybe the next day, it's you," she said.



Tips for protecting your dogs

Barb Benford, of the Humane Society of Livingston County, has several recommendations for people to keep their dogs safe during hunting season.

n Do not let your dogs run free. With hunters in the area, Benford said it's possible for a dog to be mistaken for another animal and shot or struck with an arrow. She said it could be an accident or something malicious.

n Keep dogs near the residence and away from wooded areas.

n Take extra precautions during this season because people are out hunting.

[rabbit whacker]

Idiot. Just fuel for the fire for antihunters and probably will make some new antihunters.

[predatordave]

why would someone shoot a dog? whoever did it needs to have their hunting rights taken away and their bow and guns taken away and go and pick up the dogs poop for the rest of its life.

i agree it just adds fuel for the antis :mad:

later, dave

[Mitch]

It's too bad the dog was injured, if it was shot from a tree there was no excuse. As a Rottweiler owner I know the misconceptions about these dogs and I also know that for the most part they are harmless dogs. However, if the dog was running at you, playful or not, it is an intimidating animal, and the hunter might have felt threatened and in fear for his safety. I'm not going to jump to conclusions on what happened here, there's just not enough information.

I gather the guy was probably on the ground "cut lip, entered shoulder, lodged against spine" I don't see how this could happen from an elevated position.

Just my thoughts, either way it's a shame.

Mitch

[wild bill]

i read that and feel very sorry for the owners but why was the dog off running on someone elses property.

[Bow Hunter Brandon]

Originally posted by Mitch


I gather the guy was probably on the ground "cut lip, entered shoulder, lodged against spine" I don't see how this could happen from an elevated position.

Just my thoughts, either way it's a shame.

Mitch

I thought this while reading it as well. Unfortanatly when you see the picture the wound isnt consistent with the shot being from the ground.

[umas911]

its sad that someone did what they did but why was this dog allowed to run loose??

[BVW]

If the rott is attacking or even aggesive, let him have it in self defense. but to just shoot him walking by then thats not the right thing to do. I work with a guy that said he would shoot a dog in the woods if he saw it chasing a deer, i told him if he ever shot my dog he would not be able to shoot a gun ever again without any fingers.
The dog should not be roming the nieghbor hood, but still should not be shot. i worry that my dog will get loose someday and get shot at in the woods by some ignorant hick. Dogs chase deer because of there wolf insticts, thats no reason to be shot at. But like i said, if a dog is going to attack me then he is going to have a 100 grain muzzy in his forhead.
I was charged by a stray dog a week before bow season, i believe it was a pitbull mix, i think dogs are great, but this dog needed to die, it was not safe to have around, he was put down by my uncle shortly after it attacked him as well.
So if you value your fingers, don't shoot dogs in the woods unless you think you will get bit or something.
BVW-

[Nine Milly]

This past week I was at Wolf lake in Kalamazoo fishing from the shore. When I walked out, a guy had two big labs that he was swimming and they came after me in the woods. I calmly talked to them but they continued to approach. Next thing I know it's me or my stringer. I give up my stringer, the dogs rip every fish on there apart and when the Hillbilly says " they love fish" I about fell over. He tried to pick up my tore up fish and I said its ok man there small and just walked away. So, in conclusion, Although much different from this situation, in my own recent run in with dogs, I wish I woulda had something to drop these dogs with and I wouldn't have thought twice.

Nine Milly

[I'llbeoutside]

I have been around dogs my whole life. You can never predict what a animal will do, but in most cases it will react to you. I have had many hunts disturbed by strays but shooting one is not an option. I am sorry your fish were devoured by some "crazy" dogs(maybe wolfs). Hillbilliy's like myself try to have a little patience with guys who catch small fish, but we have not taught our dogs to do the same yet. Leave your gun at home and catch bigger fish!!!!

[Gr8 Scout]

We did get half the story, but this sure does make hunters look bad.

I think when we, humankind, decided to domesicate animals, we more or less pledged to take care of them. Neither shooting one running loose or letting one run loose is taking care of our charges.

I've seen feral cats when I am out varmint hunting. I know some guys shoot them on sight, I do know they are devastating to small game animals. I'm an old softie, I guess, but I just cannot kill what may be a mama cat (taken out to the country for a one-way ride by her owners) out foraging to feed her young.

[Diggdug]

Sounds to me that the owners had a habit of letting thier dog run loose. The hunter may have been seeing the dog on a daily basis and gotten frustrated. Everyone always thinks thier dogs are so innocent. I knew a guy who had a problem with his neighbors dog getting into his garbage, finally he shot it with bird shot from long range to scare it away. The neighbor told police that someone had to have come into his yard to shoot the dog because it absoultly never leaves the yard! Yeah right! To all you dog owners out there who think people should not shoot free roaming dogs the solution is simple, take care of your dog and keep it off private property and it won't get shot! In my veiw this was the dog owners fault!

[ArrowFlinger]

I had a dog scare the crap out of me. I took my son scouting with me a few years ago. Out of nowhere this dog jumped out from behind a bush about 3 feet away from him. Didn't phase him but scared the crap out of me. My first thought was I was going to have to wrestle him off, but he was a friendly dog that was probably out chasing squirrels.

I don't really see any situation where you would neeed or be able to shoot a dog. If in a tree you are not threatened. If on the ground, by the time you would be in a threatened state the dog is going to be on you. You won't be able to shoot, you will have to use your knife.

Maybe the hunter stabbed the dog with an arrow. That could explain the downward path, lack of pass through and a broken arrow. On the other hand lets not speculate or make excuses. We were not there. This is a black eye, but let us hope it was not intentional.

There are idiots out there.

[predatordave]

all i know for anyone who would shoot a dog for chasing a deer you better be careful. what about young hounds that are not quite deer broke. i have taken my dogs out with the e collar and taught them some deer lessons in a controlled area but it is not garunteed they will not chase a deer. those hunting dogs are not cheap and just may cost a few thousand dollars or more.
the only reason any dog should be shot is if it is growling and showing teeth and running at you. not for running deer!

there is a good way to take care of dogs on private property....call the dog catcher and if the owner really cares they will go and look for it and learn their lesson.

if anyone shoots my dog they are going to loose their ***** big time, even if on private land.

later, dave

[BuckBass]

Sorry, if a Rot is chasing deer around on my private property it will be "lights out". I agree that some bowhunters need to be more responsible, but there are some dog owners that also need to become more responsible.

[farmlegend]

Some really good posts here. I agree with many, who noted that what was reported was likely no more than half the story.

Without knowing all of the facts, it sounds like the dog owners bear some responsibility for this. Only out for ten minutes? Likely not.

I would bet you $100 right now that the dog owners, if questioned, would tell you that "Jeep" would never run deer!

I noticed that whoever launched the arrow failed to get a passthru. Never trust those mechanical broadheads.:cool:

[predatordave]

i guess it is good i dont have a rot ;)

later, dave

[Eastern Yooper]

People wonder what type of person could arrow someone elses family pet? Read this thread: They're right here among us, openly admitting/advocating the shooting of dogs.

In my experience, people of this mentality usually justify breaking other laws, too.

Nice bunch of supposed 'sportsmen'.

[SARDog]

Yep, This thread will be closed down pretty fast but all i gotta say is leave your dog un-chained or not kenneled up, or tie your dog on a run it deserves to be shot. When will people learn. You let a dog run you don't deserve to have one, because somebody will shoot it.

[Burksee]

Originally posted by predatordave
call the dog catcher and if the owner really cares they will go and look for it and learn their lesson.

if anyone shoots my dog they are going to loose their ***** big time, even if one private land.

Dave, I agree that even if your being threatened that "shooting" a dog should be a last resort. However calling the "dog catcher" is not as easy as it sounds. Many communities do not have any kind of animal control and the call ends up with the county's sheriffs dept. As far as anyone shooting your dog if it trespasses onto private property you'd better rethink or do a little more research.

This gets a little long but some facts that dog owners need to read. Just because you own a dog doesn’t make you special nor does it exclude you from being responsible!

Here's a little bit of fact I'll share with you. The only ones that lose are the dog and you. If your dog is not kept under your control at all times its you that will be held responsible for its actions. My neighbor had issues with another neighbor’s dog chasing his kids while they rode their bikes. The dog chasing them scared the daylights out of the kids. After he went over and talked to the neighbor and that did no good he made several calls/reports to the sheriff's dept. Although the owner has a fenced yard he continued to let the log run loose. One day the dog chased the kids and one of them freaks out, falls and breaks her arm. The family sues the dog’s owner, takes him to court and is awarded a tidy settlement. Now the kicker, the dog owners insurance company wouldn’t cover him! They're claim was OWNER NEGLAGENCE! on the part of the dogs owner. He'd been warned and ticketed but continued to allow his dog to run loose! He's still paying on this one! By the way, the dogs gone.

[farmlegend]

Sometimes, we lose sight of a pretty basic reality.

If you own a dog, and allow it to roam loose, and it crosses onto the property of another, you have violated your neighbor's property rights. And your neighbor has been violated by YOU.

All the "he's such a friendly pooch", "he'd never run deer", "he would never act aggressively toward someone", "he's really a puzzycat", etc. doesn't change that basic reality.

If you don't know where your dog is, you run the risk of your pet having an unfortunate encounter with the "When Rover comes over, he'll be pushin' up clover" vigilantes.

[SARDog]

That's what it boils down to is responsibilty. A dog is just like your children. You raise them and it is your responsibility. Sad that a lot of people do think it is okay to let their dog run. Same with cat's, they make excellant trap bait, and bobcat's really love them too.
There is always someone with a gun in the woods that will not hesitate to shoot a dog or cat running their property.
Its bad all the way around.
What about the threads where the dog pound won't even let you adopt a dog because THEY feel you don't deserve one? Who gave them that right? Its all in part from how we take care of our own.

[Eastern Yooper]

Using that same logic, people that leave their tree stands on public property run the risk of having them stolen.

Or leaving your house unlocked means you run the risk of getting burglarized.

Or letting your kid walk to school means taking the risk that some pedophile might abduct him.

Or driving to work you means might get hit and maimed for life by a drunk driver.

I'm not excusing irresponsible dog owners. I'm simply saying that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Dawg]

One of my dogs and I were attacked by a 'harmless dog' - in my driveway. Using a rake I was able to make it into the house without a scratch and without proof. This dog came back nightly to mark it's territory, mostly under cover of darkness and not on a regular schedule. The animal control officer for our county works days and you get patched through to an answering machine anytime after 5. Call all you want and they will tell you "we have to catch it in your yard." The slob owners were made well aware of the situation. I can't lawfully discharge a gun where I live.

The above is an actual situation where I consistently had a menacing dog over 120# less than 100yds away. Did I care that it was peeing on my trees. Not really. Did I care that my wife couldn't bring in groceries without justifiable fear? Greatly. Did I ever set something besides the rake by the door? You bet.

There isn't the problem today that there used to be with feral dogs. Growing up we had several packs that ran deer around our farm. I'm glad that I only ever peppered them with birdshot but I also know that isn't what solved the problem.

[farmlegend]

Originally posted by Eastern Yooper
Using that same logic, people that leave their tree stands on public property run the risk of having them stolen.

Or leaving your house unlocked means you run the risk of getting burglarized.

Or letting your kid walk to school means taking the risk that some pedophile might abduct him.

Or driving to work you means might get hit and maimed for life by a drunk driver.

I'm not excusing irresponsible dog owners. I'm simply saying that two wrongs don't make a right.


Man oh man, your illustrations are lacking.

Leaving your house unlocked does not violate anyone else's rights.
Letting your kid walk to school does not violate anyone else's rights.
Driving yourself to work does not violate anyone else's rights.

Letting Rover come over to run around on someone else's private property is a clear violation of their property rights.

[Eastern Yooper]

I agree, F-L. But are you denying that dogs get shot on their own land? Or on public land while they might be hunting, out for a walk, etc.?

This thread is getting twisted around: It started out as someone hunting in the woods, getting P'od, and arrowing a dog.

Now stories are cropping-up about how, "One time I was a-sitting on my porch, a-minding my own durn bez-a-nezz, when the neighbors half-wolf/half mountain lion dog came runnin'up and a-chewed-off my left arm. Since it wasn't my shooting arm, I was able to get my trusty 8 gauge and drop the bugger right there. Later I sued the owner and he's a-still payin me fer it."

People shooting dogs in self-defense in one thing, and I have no problem with that. But some jack-ass 'hunter' dropping red rover because "dogs don't belong in the woods" is illegal.

[Dawg]

Nobody knows what happened to this dog. Speculate how you will. It just as well could have been shot by Jeb on the porch as a hunter in the woods. Jeb might have used a bow to do it quietly. Legal, justified or otherwise I don't see Jeb stepping up and saying "yeah he had it coming," having to hire Johnny Cochran and being the scum of the neighborhood. Jeb might not even be a 'hunter.' It's all rampant speculation I was just trying to add perspective.

[n.pike]

I agree with E-Y on this one. I believe there are situations that justify shooting a dog, but they are few. Just saying a dog doesnt belong in the woods and gets shot is plain wrong.
I cant justify the 3-s theory with dogs anymore than I can with humans. I have come across far more people in the woods that are a danger and a nuisance.
If you shoot an obviosly non-wild dog, maybe you should have to take it to the owners and explain it to them.
If it is a dangerous animal, thats one thing, but to kill a dog because its on your property or under your treestand, I say again, would you shoot a human for that.?

If its rights being violated that upsets you, noise violates mine--can I pepper your car with birdshot? Honest officer...it looked like a buck:D

[eye1zLotto]

quote:

"This thread is getting twisted around: It started out as someone hunting in the woods, getting P'od, and arrowing a dog."

E.Y, I think the word for that is "digression" which is from the Larin "degredi" or, to turn aside.

However when discecting the two syllables "die" and "gression", one means "to lose activity, vitality or force" the other from the latin "gressor" or, "one that walks".

or literally: "the thing that walks will die" i.e. the dog!

Is this prophesy or, simply Devil's Night?


Muhahhahahahaah

[Burksee]

Originally posted by Eastern Yooper
I agree, F-L. But are you denying that dogs get shot on their own land? Or on public land while they might be hunting, out for a walk, etc.?....................

This thread is getting twisted around: It started out as someone hunting in the woods, getting P'od, and arrowing a dog.............

People shooting dogs in self-defense in one thing, and I have no problem with that. But some jack-ass 'hunter' dropping red rover because "dogs don't belong in the woods" is illegal..............

EY, get real. If the dog was out for a walk shouldnt he be with his owner? On a leash? Not on someone elses property? If your against the shooting of dogs just state it.

Twisted? What was that last post made about unlocked doors and driving cars? Not even close, thought that was something posted in the wrong thread!

"Jack ass" hunter? I don't remember reading or hearing that this shooting was "not" in self defense? "Jack-ass" would be the owner of a dog whos' species is known to be moody & vicious and then allow it to runs loose, trespass and oh yeah, and all during deer hunting season.

As I stated earlier, I'm against the shooting of dogs unless its a last resort. If there were dogs running our property that appeared to be someones "pet" (clean, collared) I'd make every attempt to get the owner involved to resolve. If it was a "wild" (dirty, matted, no collar) dog and it was chasing deer I'd think twice but for the protection of myself, my family, my freinds and wildlife I'd probably take the shot. In my mind its not worth the chance that it will just go away and nothing bad will come of it.

[BuckBass]

Isn't there laws that prohibit dog owners from letting their pets roam freely? I'm not positive, but I think there is. If you ask me it's irresponsible and unsportsmanlike to let your dogs roam through my property, chase the deer on my property, and threaten my family. I proudly stand by my earlier statement.

I'm not quite sure why some of the "adults" here have to result to name calling instead of having a reasonable discussion.

[Scallywags]

E-Y, I'm willing to bet you don't see have as many dogs running unsupervised through your woods in the U.P., as we see in our area. I'm not trying to attack you, just stating that demographics can really offer a different view. I think the majority of the people on this sight would use sound judgement in the woods!

[Eastern Yooper]

Alot of assumptions get made on these threads.

Bottom line: It is illegal for anyone other than law enforcement to be shooting dogs unless, of course, in self-defense or defense of livestock.

Everytime these threads surface, it seems to be the same underlying theme: "My hunt was molested by dogs. What should I do?"

One of the biggest whiners on here admitted on last weeks dog thread that in fact: He had never called county animal control about the problem.

He sure does burn-up the internet complaining about it, tho.

I don't feel the region I live in has prohibits me from commenting: I been in the UP for 23+ years, have lived in (2) other states, and have hunted numerous other states (including the LP). :D

I get afield just about every day from Sept 15th thru Nov 30th. Not always, but just about every day. Know what? In all my years of hunting and living in the country, I've never had a hunt molested by dogs.

After 3 years on this forum, I'm thouroughly convinced some of you guys get afield maybe 5 days a year, and then its on some 2 acre plot in suburbia.

But boy, to read topics like this, one would think all hunting lands are overrun with free-roaming dogs at-large.

You guys are the ones that need to get real. And stop taking the law into your own hands.

BTW: Even up here in hickville USA, the Sheriff's dept will respond to somplaints, they will make arrests, and the county will prosecute for dogs at large. Unless, of course, the dog is on its own property... which is then perfectly legal.

Enough of this topic. I'm sick of it, particularly the people that repeatedly promote lawlessness. I'm glad you're down there, and not up here.

[BuckBass]

Who is making assumptions?

"After 3 years on this forum, I'm thouroughly convinced some of you guys get afield maybe 5 days a year, and then its on some 2 acre plot in suburbia."

That sounds like a pretty big assumption to me.

I hunt 180 acres that is about 70 minutes from 'suburbia'. I spend about 50-60 days per year in the field. I usually have 2-3 hunts per year ruined by dogs running deer (1 time already this year). Don't accuse folks of making assumptions when you are making some pretty big assumptions of your own.

[eye1zLotto]

First, let's get this straight: I would never shoot a dog, but I sure want to sometimes.

That said, let's put this thing into a financial equation: For me, I hunt on my property, maybe 7 days a year at best(I do not live there, just hunt there). With mortgage, taxes, insurance (yes, insurance if/when some knucklehead falls out of a tree) and everything else, the joint cost me right around 12 grand a year.

When some maurouding dog(s) comes barrelling through my property, no matter if is (1)some free-ranging wild mutt, (2) the pet of some irresponsible neighbor down tne way, or (3)(my personal favorite), the ol' "I'm just gett'n my hounds" while running coyotes on your property lie, either one categorically ruins deer hunting for the day.

From my perspective, that ruined hunt just cost me 1/7 of 12 grand. Or, stated otherwise: $1,714.29!
For some, there ain't a dog on this earth that is worth $1700 bucks, so you can why the old rover who came over gets whacked.

For me, I want the $1700 bucks!

We should stop this "Dogs will be dogs" and "boys will be boys" sissy s&^%. If you can be found to be the owner responsible for an errant dog that enters onto someone else's property, then your fine should be a minimun of $500, payable through the court, to the landowner.

And while we're at it, we should repeal the part of Michigan's Recreation Trespass Act that allows a person to enter the land of another, without permission, merely to retrieve their dog. There isn't a person alive with an IQ greater than .6 that doesn't know the folly of that truly flawed piece of legislation; it's been the coyote hunter's standby "get out of jail free card" for as long as it has been on the books.

[BvrTamer]

Awwww. Poor Fido. Hopefully the owners feel a little better about letting him run rampant in about another two weeks.

This kind of stuff makes me want to vomit. Oh it was shot with an arrow so it must have been a "hunter". Oh our dog wouldn't ever do this, or ever do that. Oh, our dog wouldn't hurt a flea. Yeah sure. That is the same line of bull you hear on every single dog mauling story in the paper or on the news.

Every and any dog that is running loose and not leashed to their owner is fully deserving of having the muzzle of a firearm pointed at it until the dog proves that it is not deserving a taking a "dirt nap". Which means the dog better not charge, growl at, or show "any" signs of aggresiveness. Why should it be that I, or anyone else for that matter, have to display a vicious bite wound in order to justify dispatching a dog. Wrong. A dog can be replaced alot easier than a person.

Dogs have rights alright. They have the right to a properly administered single dose of lead.

Regards.