I/O vs. Outboard

[Krankem]

I've been looking into purchasing a new boat since last January, and I think I've zeroed things down to the 2601 Striper W/A. I am still debating whether to go with an I/O (5.0 GXi Volvo Penta w/duoprop) or an Outboard (Yamaha 250 HPDI). I have never owned an I/O, and am not sure about all the pro's and cons of an I/O. I'm looking for a few opinions...what are some of the benefits/disadvantages of an I/O vs. an Outboard. Some of the questions I have center around things like:

-Fuel Economy (Cruise, Trolling)
-Power-to-weight ratio (I/O is about 600 pounds heavier)
-Power curve, Torque Curve (anyone have info/graphs on how these compare for the two engines mentioned? )
-Maintenance (I do all my own servicing)
-Reliability and life expectancy
-Ability to troll-down w/main engine vs. requiring a Kicker (I've heard the Duoprop does not troll down well)
-Use in sub-freezing weather (I've heard outboards are more suitable for this)
-Possible use in Saltwater for 1-2 weeks per year
-General conviences of fishing with one vs. the other.

I appreciate any thoughts you might have!! Thanks,
-Krankem

[Beave]

The two nicest things about an I/O are this...

1) The motor is down in the boat and out of the way. You've got a lot more "room" back in the rear of the boat for downriggers and such. It's easier to land fish out the back too. The top of the motor cover makes a great spot for sticking tackle boxes and gear if you put a tray up there.

2) It's basically a very open car engine sitting in the back of your boat. You pop the engine cover off and you're looking at a V6. With the Mercs they're usually common engines out of American vehicles. It's really easy to get a replacement part for a 4.3L 1996 chevy V6. They probably made half a million of those engines that year and put them in everything from cars to full-sized pickuts. Working on one yourself is pretty darn easy too if you're handy with a wrench. Much easier IMO than trying to fix an outboard.

With a trolling plate you can usually get an I/O to sit down and troll pretty well, although I'm not sure of your particular boat.

[plugger]

I have owned 2 ios and 2 inboards and several outboards. I would take an outboard on the boat your considering.
fishing wise the motor doesnt take room out of the boat and sticks straight down, making running riggers and neting fish much easier.

both boats would benifit from a kicker motor.

less complicated winterizeing and service

I beleive the outboard handles a little better

biggest reason to go outboard easy to repower

[FIJI]

had an I/O. Great combo with a good reputation.
The problem is......ALL engine/outdrives eventually have a problem. While parts for the Volvo engine can be found at any autoparts store...the parts for the outdrives have to all come from overseas and take FOREVER ! Trust me on this one.

My current OB (125 Merc Saltwater) has the 2 + 2 design so I don't even need a kicker for trolling.

[kroppe]

I prefer outboards, and if I were spec'ing out a new boat I would go with outboard power for all the reasons listed above. To me the automotive engine + outdrive are more of a liability to maintain than the outboard. With the outboard you have everything completely accessible from the outside, and the motor can be removed from the boat very easily.

My dream boat is a 25-29 foot hull with twin 250hp outboards. Haven't decided on the hull mfr, but Grady-White is a leading contender.

[SalmonBum]

I know a few people with this boat, Jason Adam is one of them. With a 5.0 FI Dou-prop, that boat will cruise at 35 all day and will top out in the mid 40's. The boat fishes sweet. The fuel economy is great with the fuel injection. The duo-prop is unbelievably fast out of the hole, and could be trolled down to trolling no prob, but a Beaver-troll is the best solution for any I/O.
As for maintenance, It's easy. We do all our own. As for people saying that something always goes wrong with the lower unit, they are not taking the proper care of it. If you keep things greased and fluids changed, you will not have a problem for a long time. We put hundreds of hours on our boats a yr and I have never had a lower unit problem. The Motor will be trouble free, but with anything, outboard, I/O or car, you will have something go wrong soon or later. Alternators, fuel pumps and so on will have there bad days, but I'm talking in about 15 yrs or so. The nice thing about an I/O is if the motor has a problem, run to the auto parts store, get your part and fix it yourself. with an outboard, you are stuck at the marine place, if one is in the area and open for that matter, and usually the problem is not a do-it -yourself job, and with a serious problem the Shop will have it for a month or so And it is very hard it is to find a good outboard mechanic. That is the #1 one complaint I hear from my buddies that have them. If there're is a problem, it usually takes multiple times to the shop to get it fixed right. With proper care, I think an I/O motor will go 20+ yrs with no major motor\ lower unit troubles.
For using in winter months, it's not the best Idea with an I/O, not saying it can't be done. I have a the same motor as Jay, but I have the 5.7 and a closed cooling system. It would honestly take me 10 minutes to winterize it if I felt the urge to take it out once in early December. The newer models can be ordered with a onboard flushing kit if you plan on taking it in saltwater.
I have heard alot of problems with people having some of the newer computerized outboard, especially Mercs. Everyone I know that has bought a New Outboard in the last 4 yrs HAS had major problems, like blown power heads, lower units to injectors that never wanna work. One guy has a 2002 Opti-max that has been junk right out of the box. The other downside of them, if it's a 2 stroke model, is the exhaust fumes. It may not be a problem for you, but people you take out fishing might not like it. The 250 outboard on a 26 Striper may be abit underpowered. That is what I hear from the saltwater guys.

That Duo-pro is one bad mutha. If you never fished one, you don't know what your missing.

[TimT]

-Fuel Economy (Cruise, Trolling)
I'm not positive, but I'd be willing to bet that a V-8 I/O is gonna be signicantly less fuel effecient.

-Power-to-weight ratio (I/O is about 600 pounds heavier)
The weight distribution of an I/O is a little better, but the outboard is gonna give you better top-end hp numbers - by weight.

-Power curve, Torque Curve (anyone have info/graphs on how these compare for the two engines mentioned? )
I don't have a chart for this, but I'm quite sure the V-8 has much better torque at lower rpm's. (One of the knocks on the newer 4-stroke o/b's has been their weakness out of the whole.) Manufacturers are working on overcoming this. Some would say certain manufacturers already have.

-Maintenance (I do all my own servicing)
This is where I part company with many. I think the maintenance of an I/O is gravy. Sure, things can get cramped, but I'm quite comfortable with my own familiarity with the layout of an I/O.

-Reliability and life expectancy
I believe that the frequency of major repairs is less with an I/O. (Certainly, with a Mercruiser Alpha I and a V-8 anyway.)

-Ability to troll-down w/main engine vs. requiring a Kicker (I've heard the Duoprop does not troll down well)
With a 350 and Alpha I on a 3000# + 20' aluminum rig, I need a trolling plate. (You have testimony here from someone that has your setup. Take their word for how it performs.)

-Use in sub-freezing weather (I've heard outboards are more suitable for this)
True. They don't retain water in the cooling system. (Or at least they're easier to drain than an I/O.)

-Possible use in Saltwater for 1-2 weeks per year
Saltwater I/O rigs have enclosed cooling systems. o/b's have designated saltwater series engines.

-General conveniences of fishing with one vs. the other.
As stated by another, I like the fishability at the back of the boat with an I/O. However.......... I haven't fished, touched, felt, sat in or otherwise inspected or tried to lay out a vessel of this size with an outboard. I did spend 3 years shopping, looking, touching and feeling many fiberglass and aluminum boats in the 19 - 21' variety. I could not, with any of them, come up with a model or layout that is as salmonfishing friendly as an I/O.

[Jason Adam]

I have a 1999 Seaswirl Striper 2600 WA with a VP 5.0 Duoprop. I moved up in the end of last year from a 1997 Tropy 2002(20') WA with a 115 Merc OB. I also convinced a buddy to get a '03 2601 Striper WA with the 5.7 VP Douprop.

I say as long as your going to be comfortable pulling the lower unit once a year and doing preventative maintanence, go with the I/O all the way. Myself and every person that has been on my boat says its the quietest boat they've ever fished on. I can cruise at 35-40MPH and still talk to everyone in the cockpit at normal volume or listen to the radio. I would never own another single engine boat without a douprop again. You can walk the boat sideways at the docks. Throttle response is unbelieveable. Dont believe the "VP parts are hard to find..." You may have to call around when you need a part, but I'll take having to call around once every few years for my volvo, rather than every few monthes for parts for a merc Bravo III(Mercs POS duoprop copy). I can give you a list of marine stores that stock VP, and since Merc is loosing market share everyday, parts for the VP will only get easier to find. Look at the two powerplants side to side and you can see who has the better product.

Outboards are easy. If you want absolute ease of use, an OB is probably it, but foir great lakes trolling, I need the back of my boat open. OB's are substatially more expensive(you'll probably tack on $5000+ easyto go OB on that boat I would guess).

"-Fuel Economy (Cruise, Trolling)"
"-Power-to-weight ratio (I/O is about 600 pounds heavier)"
If I hit 4900RPM's, I can hit 50MPH with 4 people and 85 gallons of fuel. At that speed, you can probably watch the fuel gauge go down if you look close. I cruise about 3400RPM and run 32-35MPH. I plan on installing a fuel flow gauge this winter. I can tell you that some weekends I have burned 40 - 60 Gallons, some weekends 10. It's all how far you run. I could troll all day on a few gallons, but running, I would expect I'll be 2-3.5 MPG.

-Power curve, Torque Curve (anyone have info/graphs on how these compare for the two engines mentioned? )
I know the Duoprops have I beleive 30% more torque at the prop, if I'm not mistaken, than a standard single screw. I will look for the graphs. I have seen them.

-Maintenance (I do all my own servicing)
If you can change oil and filters, remove and service your lower unit(1-2 hours, once a year, nothing complicated), Drain the block(a few plugs to unscrew)you're good. You can get that motor with a closed cooling system, which eliminates half your winterizing(On the scheadule for this winter as well) Not much too the I/o. My OB was a 2 stroke, which was real easy. Fog it and change the lower fluid.

-Reliability and life expectancy
Both are directly relative to preventative maintanence. Either can last a year or 25.

-Ability to troll-down w/main engine vs. requiring a Kicker (I've heard the Duoprop does not troll down well)
I have had a Beaver-trol on mine since I got it, so I can't speak without one(My 2 other buddies that have DP's put them on before ever heading out as well. I troll at 600 or 900 RPM's depending on current. I can troll as slow as .8MPH and still have perfect control with the Autopilot. The Beavertrol is the best money(besides the autoopilot) you can spend if you have an I/O. They are about $1400, but precision trolling it is.

-Use in sub-freezing weather (I've heard outboards are more suitable for this)
OB's are "better" for this, cause they are easy to re-winterize. You can use them and flush them with pinik stuff and your pretty well good to go. I/O's are more work to get all the water out of the system, so your "risking" more if you are doing rush winterizing jobs. There may be other reasons why O/B's are better suited for cold weather as well, I don't know.

-Possible use in Saltwater for 1-2 weeks per year
Rent a boat while you're there. Towing costs and long term damage to your engine is not worth it. There is a reason salty boats are worth 20% less. You can never really get all the salt out of your engine. If you are dead set on it, get a outboard all set up to flush out, but really, its probably not woth it. If you were saying 6 monthes a year, that'd be one thing, but 1 to 2 weeks is not worth it.

-General conviences of fishing with one vs. the other.
I use my doghouse for tackle prep or sittin on. If you are looking at a new one, they have the euro-transom which basicaly eliminated the doghouse. In my opinion, the OB is in the way. Not so much that you can't fish with it or anything, it's just more in the way than not having it.

All things being equal, even if the costs were equal(which an OB is almost always way more) I would pick a I/O. I would definitally pick a VP and definitally get a duoprop. My boat is propbably done for the year, otherwise I'd take you out. If your in the same boat(sorry...) next year, I'll be breaking the boat out as soon as the ice leaves.

[Krankem]

Thanks for all the information guys! I appreciate your time in writing the responses....

Your comments have me leaning more toward the VP/duoprop. I'll still be keeping my current setup (15.5' w/30hp OB), so I guess it would probably just be easier to use that when I feel the urge to go out in freezing weather. As for saltwater, I guess I'll have to figure out what I really want to do there - that might be more fantasy than reality right now.

Jason is right, the VP I/O is significantly cheaper (I'm looking at ordering a 2004...was originally thinking twin OB's until I found out that would add 16-20k to the total cost vs I/O), and the Euro-transom on the new I/O models is really nice - lots of room on the back deck without the doghouse. Sounds like maintenance won't be a problem for me, though it will definitely be more work than my current 30hp OB. I do have a few new questions now:

(1) What is a Beaver-troll, and what are the advantages over a kicker? (I was leaning toward installing a 10-15hp Honda 4-stroke as a Kicker). I like the idea of trolling with a separate kicker motor to keep the engine hours down on the main motor, and to have the ability to "limp home" if the main motor ever fails. Sounds like the Beaver-troll would be a cheaper option though.

(2) Jason, you mentioned that you have the 5.0 VP, and that you talked your buddy into the 5.7 VP... The current 5.0 I'm looking at has 270hp vs. 320 for the 5.7. Based on your experience, it seems like the 5.0 will push that boat well with the duoprop. I didn't think the extra 50hp and increased torque would be worth the extra weight and lower fuel economy of going to the larger block. What other benefits of the 5.7 might I not have thought of?

(3) Another one for Jason or others with similar rigs...what do you use to trailer your 26' WA with? I plan to pull it with a '99 F-150 5.4L, and will probably be trailering it all over the place. Think that might be an issue?

Thanks again...I won't be placing an order any time soon, so I'm still open to additional opinions on I/O vs. OB that others might have - please keep them coming!

Krankem

[TimT]

Beaver-trol is a plate that is hydraulicly lowered behind the prop to disrupt the flow of water coming off of the prop, thereby slowing you down.
If I'm spending your money, I'm buying the kicker. (For all of the reasons you mention.)

More power, more better. The block of a 5.0 and 5.7 are the same size, just a different bore and stroke. A boat your size, I'd go for all the power I could. But,,,,,, if a 5.0 gets you running at a speed that the ride is comfortable in, then fine.

You'll have to trade that truck in for something worth while.;) Say, something with a bowtie on front. If it'll fit on a trailer with 2 axles, I'd tow it with my 3/4 ton Chevy with the 6.0. Your 5.4 is supposed to be a pretty torquey motor but that's a lot of boat to tow. I can't remember if Jason has a 1/2 ton or not, I'm curious to hear what his towing experience is, knowing that he's haulin' his rig all over the state, all summer long.

OK, I'm done window shopping. Good Luck. I have the feeling it's gonna be a looooooong winter for someone.

[SalmonBum]

The Beaver Troll is the way to go. Both myself and Jason have them on our D/P's. You set your motor at a certain RPM, then use the Adjust the Beaver Plate up or down for precision trolling speeds. You can control it to .1 mph. The kicker motors seem to be more of a pain in the rear than anything. If you run a power-assisted steering system, you usually hafta have the big motor running if you wanna steer it form the wheel. the 2-stroke models are noisy and you'll still get the smell. Just don't worry about the hrs and fish. Get a Beaver troll and an AutoPilot. Jason has the 5.0L which is plenty for that boat. I have the 5.7L in mine, but my boat is bigger. When he first got the boat, we were both wondering if the 5L would be enough. Trust me, it is. The 5L with Fuel injection is rated at 260HP, the 5.7 FI is 280 and the 5.7HO is 320. If it is just a small amount to upgrade, cool. If not, don't worry about it. From the specs, a 5L FI has way better fuel efficiency than a 5.7 with a 4 bbl.

Trucks....... Jason has a 2500HD with a 6.0 V8. and pulls it just fine. But, he has pulled that boat with my Girlfriend's 2002 GMC Z71 1/2 ton and was amazed on how good it pulled. The 1/2 ton GMC will pull that boat every weekend no problem. I had a F150 for a bit, I wouldn't rely on that truck being the only tow vehicle. She works abit to move that load. I towed his Striper home from Ludington with my Duramax and didn't even know it was there.

[Getaway]

Great info guys! Jason and Salmon Bum got it right. My next boat will have the dual prop for sure.

I've owned outboards and I/O's. I prefer the I/O because I can't stand the 2 stroke fumes and the outboard was always in the way. I love the rumble of an inboard gas motor and the quiet trolling is unbeatable. Plus, the little thrill you get after clearing the breakwall and pouring the berries to her and listening to that motor groan....ahhhh, the sounds of summer. You just don't get that from an outboard.

I do all my own service work too. Yearly greasing and seal changing on the lower unit is a must for long lasting trouble free performance. Winterizing my 4.3ltr is a snap and takes a total of about 20 minutes. As far as getting parts at an auto store, MOST of the time that works. I found out that the water pump I need is a "marine" water pump and it costs about $150 more that a standard automotive pump. :mad: The marine pump has a shorter stand-off dimension from the block to the pulley than the automotive pump. Oh well, that is the only part I've needed for my motor in 8 years of trouble free, hardcore fishing.

[TimT]

Oh yeah, one more drawback to the kicker........ autopilot. You're not going to be able to install an inexpensive autopilot like the Simrad AP12/14 or the Raytheon sportpilot plus or ST5000. If you go to walleycentral dot com, you can search on TR1 and read all there is to read about a kicker autopilot that the walleye guys are absolutely in love with. (Between motor and autopilot, we're now probably around 4k.) If you go with the same autopilot that Jason, Bill and myself have, you're adding 1200 to your boat, plus the 1400 for the beavertroll. (Personally, I use a mechanical system called Happy Troller, $89, (Jason hates it) but I can control my speed with the trim position of the outdrive, and never have to touch the throttle.) I'd be willing to bet that the happy troller won't even fit on the duo-prop.

I would've thought that a boat your size would've easily accepted a kicker, but if the guys think it'd be in the way.........

Ok, this time I'm done and I swear it.

[Jason Adam]

TimT, Bill(SalmonBum), and Getaway, pretty much answered most of your follow up questions, but I'll toss my two cents in.

(1) What is a Beaver-troll, and what are the advantages over a kicker? -
www.beaver-trol.com . TimT already explained it and you can look it up on that site. Unless you will be fishing alone and want a kicker for emergencys, I would scrap the kicker idea and go with the beavertrol. On a big OB, I can see wanting to keep the hours off the big motor, as replacement cost is huge, but if your running i/o, and you burn up a big motor after 8 years of trolling, you can still replace it for half the cost of a decent kicker. The kickers are a pain. More crap in the way at the back of the boat. More brackets to mount on the boat. You have to tie them into your fuel suplly or carry extra fuel. You have to tie them into your steering, re-rig your wiring so your electronics don't kill your battery out there, etc, etc, etc... The big motor is quite, out of the way, and free(it's already there), use it...

(2) 5.0 vs 5.7 - I bought my boat used last year and it had the 5.0. I didnt even know what power plants were availible in it(To be honest, my Striper was what you might call an "impulse buy"(voices in my head told me...)). Anyway, No sea trial. After I bought the boat, I ask the old guy how fast she runs(as it is not a primary concern). He says, "on a calm day, about 50". First time out, 5 of us on-board, I give the "everybody ready", they said yeah, I punched it, and my buddy flew over the dog house. It moves. I think in my situation, the 5.0 is more than adaquate, but I cant imagine anyone saying, should have bought the smaller motor. If I were buying new, I'd get the 5.7

(3) I would seriously consider upgrading your tow vehicle. If you were towing once or twice a year, I'd say do it. I towed with a 2002 1500 Z-71 and it moved it good. The problem with trailering safley is not getting it moving, its keeping it under control, and stopping when you need to, and not destroying your frame and suspension in the mean time(I had a 99' ZR2 Blazer that I towed a loaded 20' Trophy WA with and it wrecked the truck). I tow ith a 03' GMC 2500HD 6L 4.10Rear. If you tow with your 1/2 ton frequently, you will trash that truck.
5200 lbs Dry weight
1500+lbs Trailer
800 lbs (100 Gallons Gas(2/3 Tank))
-------------
7500lbs with no gear....

I towed over 2600 miles this year. I tow, control, and stop my load fine with that truck. Word of warning. Towing at 65 MPH = 8 MPG, 74MPH = 6MPG...

[Krankem]

Thanks...that Beaver-trol sounds good. The kicker idea is starting to sound more and more expensive given the points you guys mentioned, most of which I hadn't thought of (power steering on the outdrive, powering all the electronics, etc.). I'm already past my budget on this whole thing including everything else I need to rig it for salmon. It would be a lot cleaner back there w/o the kicker too. The only thing that still concerns me is no backup power...I don't ever want to be the guy ending someone else's day short because I need a tow back to the harbor. Maybe I'll buy a sweet pair of oars and build up my lats before heading out there on the new rig!!

Obviously not the answers I wanted to hear on towing with my current truck, though you are all probably right :( ! The max trailer weight on my truck is 7700#, so I'd be pushing it right to the limit with this boat. It's a standard cab with the offroad package, so has some additional frame reinforcement, etc. in the front. It also has the 3.73 rear end...I am heading to the spring shop this Sat. to have a 3/4 ton leaf pack installed in the rear. While I'm there, I plan to look into options for adding additional frame crossmembers to strengthen the frame further. I'm not positive, but I think the transmission on my truck with the 5.4L is the same as that in the old 3/4 ton (before they introduced the superduty)...have to pay a visit to www.F-150online.com to ask a few questions there. I've never pulled a trailer with brakes...How well do they work? I plan to buy either a custom eagle or custom loadmaster tandem trailer and will get it with the best braking system they offer. New truck is not really in the budget right now, so I'll have to make the cheap modifications I mentioned above, and see how well she handles. If it's a scary ride, then I'll just have to well the boat or store it on the trailer somewhere near to a good port. That would kill my plans to start fishing a few tournaments next summer though...at least until I'm ready to upgrade my current truck for a diesel.

....off to go kick my truck and wish it was a diesel.

[kroppe]

Krankem,

Re: trucks, I give two thumbs up for the Ford Super Duty/Powerstroke diesel. You are welcome to drive mine any time, just give me a shout and I'll stop by. If you want I can hook up the boat and pull it over so you can see how the truck pulls a load.

[Krankem]

Sounds like a plan Kroppe - Honestly, I can't even think about a new truck right now though. It's scary enough how many new costs keep popping up with moving into a boat this size. I guess that's the one nice thing about my current boat - it's cheap to own, transport, and operate!! Gotta go bigger though - my wife was along for one too many trips in seas way too rough for my current boat this summer. I even asked her if we should consider a 21 or 23 foot boat so that it would be easier to tow, and that was not an option:) (honestly, I'm not complaining). Would still like to check out that superduty - with you living right down the street from me, maybe we'll team up next year to fish a couple tournaments..."Team Krankem-Kroppem":D . I'll bring the boat, you bring the truck!

[Jason Adam]

" I'm already past my budget on this whole thing including everything else I need to rig it for salmon."

"Honestly, I can't even think about a new truck right now though. It's scary enough how many new costs keep popping up with moving into a boat this size."

Just a word of note, "they" say, "The CHEAPEST part of owning a boat is the payment". They also say "BOAT= Break Out Another Thousand". Both of those statements couldnt be closer to the truth. All I'm saying is don't kid yourself about the spending your getting yourself into, especially if your gonna tour the state for tourneys. Things like insurance cost you $450 a year. New trailer tires now cost $300(If your gonna run the state for tourneys, tires wont last too many seasons.) Winterizing costs $150-250 with no shrink wrap. Slip fees, GAS(Boat and Tow vehicle) can be $150+ a weekend, etc..etc..etc.. Probably not telling you anything you dont already know, but I see alot of "new" boats for sale used because people thought the $400mo. payment was going to be 60% of their boating costs.