Lack of Hunters?

[Big Al]

Has anybody else noticed a lack of hunters this year on state land? I've been hunting Yankee Springs recreational area every day this season and I have only seen 1 other hunter all season!! Driving by the hunter parking areas which are normally full all day every day, half of them are empty or nearly so. What's going on? I sure hope this isn't going to be an ongoing trend but is sure is disturbing. Big Al

[Kevin]

What are your kidding?
I tell you Al, I find State or Fed land that is not crowded, I am just thankful and try to see how long it can last. ;)
Seriously though, I love when I get some privacy on public land but maybe some of our DNR friends can weigh in on liscenses issued relative to previous years. I have not been generally lucky enough to have your problem.
Happy Hunting!
-Amos

[Steve]

Yeah, I'd be quiet about it and keep hunting. It might not last long.

[yoda]

They all Came to the U.P. Al You can have them all back :D

[Pat Eddinger]

Quietest opening day ever in my neck of the woods,and I'm hearing the same from lots of my customers,Lisc. sales are waaay down,and firearm and ammo sales are big time down from last year,as reported by several of my wholesalers and a couple other outdoor retailers I talk with.Some of the guy's have said that they are too busy with work,and several have said that they were bummed out by the low deer numbers and bad odds when compared to years past.I hope the insurance industry that paid off MUCC,and the QDM folks are happy that they may be driving hunters away.Good luck folks!Pat

[marty]

Good point Pat I kinda of believe that the hunting numbers are dropping. I'm in 452 but have really noticed the decrease of hunters. Read somewhere that out of 28 hunting states only two were down and michigan was one. Hope the DNR is happy with license sales cause they already lost one young hunter in my family and I may not even hunt in michigan next year......marty

[fishinlk]

You guys crack me up talking about low chances of getting deer and not hunting next year! Lets see.... If you bow hunt and gun hunt you can legally shoot 2 bucks, correct??? Plus how many does? The avg. hunter success rate is almost 1 in 2??? WHAT ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT! Here in OH the success rate is 1 in 4. You can shoot 1 buck, PERIOD. 1 more doe if unless you hunt an urban area. I still come north to hunt when I can scrape together the $100+ for a license. When I do I see more deer in three days than I do in a month down here. And I hunt the "deer rich" southern counties of Ohio. Think about what you've got up there... I swear, more people up there take too much of your state for granted. :(

[Eastern Yooper]

Well now, lets see:

-You can buy a regular firearm license good for 1 antlered deer only

-You can buy a bow-only license good for a deer of either $ex

-You can buy a combo license in which you may use both tags in one season. However: if you use both in bow and elect to take 2 bucks, one license is labeled 'restricted' and this means you may only use it to tag a buck having 4 or more points on one side. BUT: you could also use one tag for an antlerless deer. OR: you could use both for antlerless deer. NOW: if you elect to use only one tag for an antlered buck during bow, and save one for rifle, well, you may do that but that tag is only good for a buck and remember that one must have 4 points on one side if you shot a smaller buck to begin with. ALSO: you may not use either combo tag during the firearms season to take an antlerless deer, even tho you may do so in archery.

O.K. then. Lets move on.

There are also antlerless deer tags available by drawing. That is, unless you are a landowner and this in turn means you may purchase 1 tag over the counter prior to the drawing deadline. A landowner means someone in the U.P. or southern MI owning 5 or more acres, and all the rest of the state has a 40 acre minimum.

You may use your private tag on any private lands within the respective management unit..... but not on public property.

There are also general antlerless permits available for various units throughout the state. These may be used on either public or private lands within the unit.

Got all that memorized so far?

Good.

lets move on to blinds. Blinds may be placed on state lands no sooner than 10 days prior to the start of the respective season. Blinds cannot be constructed of anything other than natural materials. You may elect to use a portable blind but it must be removed at the end of each day hunting. You may also use a tree-stand but no branches may be cut or trimmed and screw-in steps are not allowed. You name and address must be visible on all blinds, and the first person to occupy a blind may legally hunt from it. Remember you may not cut shooting lanes on state lands.

Got all that?

All-rightee then, lets move on to baiting. In the U.P. you may place up to 5 gallons of bait on one site. In the lower Peninsula you may only use 2 gallons. Remember the T.B. affected areas may not use bait at all. Bait must be spread out in a 10' by 10' square area. You cannot bait prior to Oct 1. Mechanical feeders - which were not legal last year - are again legal this year.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....... have I missed anything else?

Obviously, I'm being sarcastic. It's no surprise that groups such as 'Whitetails Forever' and the Practical idiot are promoting their causes. People are getting fed-up with it all. Things are getting too darn complicated, and there frankly is no reason for it.

Remember what happened to duck hunting about 20 years ago? Seems as though the same is happening to deer hunting.

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VEGETARIAN: Indian word meaning 'Bad Hunter'

[This message has been edited by Eastern Yooper (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Stinger]

I don't know where you all hunt but in my neck of the woods I heard and counted no less than 150 gun shots opening day and I quit counting at noon. Deer hunting is as popular as it's ever been, it's the other hunting seasons that are loosing hunters.

As for Fred Trost and the rest? You can tell a lot about a person by how easily they are confused.

[Skibum]

I have to weigh in with Trout. A lot of hunters got spoiled in the 80's and early 90's when the deer numbers exploded. I rember well the days when you were allowed one deer a year, period, and doe permits were tough to come by. That meant if you killed a deer with a bow you were done, no gun hunting. Success rates were under 20% for gun season and around 5% for bowhunters. Tree stands were not allowed for bow hunting much less gun hunting and baiting was basically unheard of. I remember it being a big deal when rifle hunters killed 100,000 bucks. This was not in the dark ages but back in the 70's. My personal opinion based at least on many of my aquaintances is two fold. First many serious deer hunters have switched primarily to bowhunting. Tree stands and modern archery tackle have improved the odds tremendously and success rates are now somewhere around 35-40%. Second the pace of life has icreased dramatically in the past 30 years. Many of the people I used to hunt with regularly have turned into golfers and use their vacation time for that (gag). Many gun hunters are now one day wonders so the pressure has really fallen off in many areas after the first day. The upside is that it seems like more bucks are surviving making for good late season hunting for those who are persistant and allowing more to survive to produce better racks.

Skibum

[Pinefarm]

Pat, where is your store? We had the exact same story here in Baldwin. Very, very slow. After last years rifle opener, we hardly ordered anything because we had enough left over from last year. I'm sure part of the reason that license sales were slow is because a lot of people probably already bought combo licenses earlier in the year. But that doesn't explain slow store sales and slow traffic. It also doesn't explain very little shooting and empty camp sites. I heard on the radio that DNR biologist Jeff Greene said that the Big Rapids check station was down over 10%. My guess is that the U.P. Bridge count will be way up and southern Michigan will set yet another record. One thing is for sure, the DNR can play with the numbers all they want, but people like you and I know the truth. Also, go and talk to the bar, motel and party store owners, let alone wholesalers. I have and they have the same story. Slow. However, with the huge increase of bow hunters in the last 15 years, I'm sure that the over all season kill will be pretty good. But it's a fact that the "big sales" rifle openers are a thing of the past.

[rrbuckmaster]

I know the motel i stay in I had no problem getting a room 3 weeks before opening day. Last year it was filled about 4 weeks before opening day, 2 years ago,i called in the beginning of oct and they were filled. I would say hunter numbers are down in the mio area anyways.

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HAPPY AND SAFE HUNTING TO ALL.

[Big Al]

Stinger,
Must be you've never hunted in Yankee Springs, it's a big block of state land between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. Two years ago I counted over 500 gunshots before 10:00 on opening morning. Last year I changed my hunting strategy because of all the pressure. Instead of hunting underneath an oak tree or along a trail like the rest of the guys I sat up in the middle of a swamp and let the other hunters push deer towards me. I saw 25 deer and 12 hunters on opening day. This year I saw one hunter and one deer. Something's going wrong and I might have to change my strategy once again. Big Al

The Oakland Press Article stated the number of hunters and licenses sold were down this year. I have talked with many hunters that quit deer hunting because of not seeing deer and I guess as they stated the blame is on the QDM for allowing to many anterless deer licenses the past few years, especially in some areas. I guess it doesn't matter to most of us that hunt for the sport and not the kill. I only saw 2 deer the first 2 days and both were bucks, shot a 5 pt. and my hunting was done.

[Pat Eddinger]

Bob,
I'm in Hartford.
Last year we went through 9 or 10 rolls of Lisc. stock and then burned up the machine the day before opener.This year we have only burned 6 rolls of stock.The ammo sales are waaay down,and to add to it I LOWERED prices on all of it Below what the local wally world gets for the same ammo!Deer scent sales are way down,and the number of guy's coming through our doors has been way down.
I yakked with my distributor rep at Accusport and he concurred that sales to this region(U.P. and western lower MI)are below 50% of what they were at this time last year.I can honestly say that the number one gripe I'm hearing is "There's no deer sign,and darn few deer"!!!Sure quite a few guy's are getting bucks and lots of the 3 per person doe tags are getting tagged,but the effects of the DNR war on the antlerless deer are showing up.The average guy that hunts around here is happy with a yearling 4-6 point buck,and wont take a doe untill late in the season just to put something in the freezer,and that's mostly what they are after.I find it distressing that because of the pressure brought forth by trophy hunters the majority of deer hunters are getting the short end of the stick.The insurance industry is whining about the surge in deer car accidents,but the herd Size(By the DNR count)was higher in 89'&90' by far and there were fewer accidents then.Odd?Anyway,hang in there ice fishing is coming!Pat

[Skibum]

Do any of you think having the opener on a Wednesday this year has kept hunter numbers down?

Skibum

[Pat Eddinger]

Guy's,
I ain't a big "Tost-ite",he has his opinions and I have mine.My point is that what we have been told about deer herd numbers and the annual "Harvest" dosn't match up with what several hundred of my customers and my own naked eyeball are seeing.
I live on a very rural 90 acres of split cover,with lots of agricultural activity surrounding.The deer sign on my property is almost nil this year,and it was pretty sorry last year.I have a 5 acre plot of Ladino clover I planted, that usually is kept around 2-3" from the deer grazing on it,this year it has over grown and required mowing at one time.My neighbor,a farmer with over 600 acres usually expects the corner of one field to be a write off from deer chewing on the crop.This year one could hardly tell it had been fed upon by deer,but the damage done by 'coons is pretty high.
I hear similar stories from folks coming in from all over the county,yet the DNR saw fit to sell 3 doe tags a person this year,which could possibly mean 12 LESS deer next year per person.
In the midst of all this is quite a bit of private land owned and posted,by out of state summer residents where large numbers of deer car accidents occur,and deer have become a pest.Do we pay the price for the tourists anti-hunting sentiments?The big farms that are given block permits are quite often posted "No hunting" period!Again,there is a solution but it isn't offered and we pay the price in the whole deer herd.
The T.B. in 452 is a big scare for all of us,yet other states with larger bovine populations don't consider it a problem seeing as how Bovine T.B has been around forever and it has been passed from doe to Fawn through milk forever.Do they have a T.B. Problem in Texas or Wisconsin?
There are too many questions that are going unanswered and the direction of the DNR has been unaltered.Too many allegations and questionable statements have been made for this guy to trust either Fred Trost or the DNR.All I know is things aren't what they were when folks thought things were going in a positive direction.I hate to say it but with the supposed crowding on state land and the reduced access to private land due to the sprawl of the urban refugees,soon we will be in the same boat as texas where deer hunting has been reduced to hunting leases by hunt clubs,and only the affluent can afford a hunt.That would stink!Think what you wish,but to ignore a problem untill it's slap in the face obvious,it's too late.
The deer herd in Ohio is currently on a come back from over harvesting and it has taken a long time to get where it is today.How long will you or your kid enjoy the solitude of hunting without taking a deer?Isn't it worth raising some questions?Cheers!Pat

[Pat Eddinger]

Skibum,
Typically when the opener is mid-week,the following Sat.Sunrise sounds like Omaha beach on D-day.Not so this year.I counted 9 shots total untill I came in to open the store at noon.Sunday was the same,only quieter.I really can't remember seeing the bar next door busy in the afternoons during firearm deer season,they are this year,and I recognize many of my usually rabid hunting customers that head in after work around 4pm.
For some reason the desire just isn't there.
Cheers!Pat

[Joe Archer]

Well, I guess there will be goose hunting. I started out as a pheasant hunter, gave that up because there weren't any more birds in my area. If the curent deer trend coupled with the attempts at herd obliteration continue...honk ...honk, what else will there be? <----<<<

[Buckmaster]

Herd numbers? QDM? My point exactly in previous post on Doe permits. You remember when you were one in a few that got a permit? Now they are handed out like candy at a parade. And now you are starting to hear people complaining about deer numbers! Man it should not take long to figure this one out. At the low cost of permits and you do not need a regular license to use your permit what do you think is going to get harvested through out the season especially when you can take as many as you buy permits for. If you want to get your herd numbers up then instead of QDM you have to use DSD...Don't Shoot Does. my .02 and my opinion weather it be right or wrong I guess I'm entitled to it and it seems to work pretty well around here. Happy Hunting to All and also have a Thankful Thanksgiving!

[fishinlk]

Pat, You are correct about the overhunting that the state allowed down here. They sure mucked up! But the recovery time hasn't been that bad. 3 yrs and it's getting close to where it was. The comments about the private landowners that don't allow hunting hit very close to home here but for other reasons. Ohio has less state land and all of this private ground is often off limits but on top of that is growing into big timber. Everyone wants their big woods(read: supports no wildlife!) I also see that happening up there. Every couple of years I just look at the woods and wonder. So many of the areas I frequent year round up there just keep getting bigger and vary little ever gets cut. Just something to think about......
For you 452 guys I do understand and honetly feel bad for ya... Have a little faith in the DNR. They're on the right track. If the deer rebound down state like they did in the UP the last three years you'll have nothing to worry about. :)


[This message has been edited by fishinlk (edited 11-21-2000).] If I could only TYPE!

[This message has been edited by fishinlk (edited 11-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by fishinlk (edited 11-21-2000).]

[terry pickett]

Al
I hunt the Yankee Springs area too.I havent had that many people in my area the last couple of years. Had more shooting the frist day this year then the last two. After that nothing. saturday after opening couldnt believe the lack of hunters. Was hoping to be some pressure to move the deer. I have a friend that hunted with us this year. Hunted private in past but got leased out. He wasnt real sure about it at frist. After the frist day he couldnt believe the deer he seen and the lack of hunters. After sat. he really couldnt believe it. He told he would never have believed anybody about lack of hunters.And must tell you I've been seeing deer all but one day. That was saturday!

[bwiltse]

I've seen QDM mentioned 3 times under this post as a reason for shooting too many antlerless deer. In this regard, I can assure you that QDMA has no influence on the DNR in the number of antlerless permits they issue (although I do believe they do a good job overall). And the thought that QDM hunters pass on young bucks to slaughter does is far more than a stretch.

I believe the majority of all hunters are in favor of maintaining deer numbers in balance with habitat (including a safety margin). Take a look at the poll results on this site (86% in favor).

[Pat Eddinger]

bwiltse,
The way I understand the QDMA and their operating principal is that buttons and lesser Bucks are passed on,and does are whittled down heavily to free up winter browse for the increased number of bucks.
The decreased number of does allows for dominant bucks to dominate the breeding rights and passing better genes for racks.
The average schmo would much rather have a spindly 6 point every other year than a monster once in 10 years,and the meat hunters just don't care what kind of headgear a buck wears.The poll concerning QDM on this site is just about worthless when the average hunter is not even half tempted to log on to this site and chat.Most of the guy's here are serious hunters that will lean towards trophy deer every time.
Heck,most of my customers that hunt could care less about the internet,as they are too busy either working or hunting to sit and chat about it.Where's their input?
The way I see it the debate could be settled amoung all the deer hunters with a survey similar to the one done on the Lisc. terminal for the waterfowlers.Then it would be direct input and not just that of trophy hunters and lobbying groups that accept big dollars from the insurance industry.No flames man,just the view from here.Cheers!Pat

[Skibum]

I've been thinking about this and one other thing strikes me. That is the explosion of golf in this state. I know many friends who used to hunt and who now spend all their recreational time chasing the little white ball. That includes taking "boys weekends" up north which for them have replaced deer camp as a place to socialize, play cards and such. Granted these guys were not hard core hunters but now they barely go if at all any more.

Skibum

[Eastern Yooper]

The point I was trying to emphasize in my earlier post is that HUGE changes in deer licenses have occurred in the last 5 years.

Also, MAJOR restictions - even outright bans - have occurred so far as blinds and baiting are concerned.

Folks: Hunting is supposed to about venturing afield, enjoying the great outdoors, and having fun. I think that things have been getting waaaaaaaaaaay too complicated and restrictive in the last 10 years. I frankly think this has been a turn-off for a great many folks.

Those of us that are die-hards have and will continue to stick with things. Others, however, are more apt to say "Ah, the hell with it" and move on to other things. I think waterfowl hunting is an example of this.

For pete's sake....... there are ALOT of deer to be taken by hunters in this state. Some of the more recent rules imposed by the DNR are the result of what I term 'imaginary crisis' invented by the department. Examples include: Blinds, baiting, shining, and the quotaless antlerless deer tags.

People are getting tired of it.

[boehr]

Originally posted by Eastern Yooper:
Some of the more recent rules imposed by the DNR are the result of what I term 'imaginary crisis' invented by the department. Examples include: Blinds, baiting, shining, and the quotaless antlerless deer tags.People are getting tired of it.

I don't find any "imaginary crisis" invented by the DNR. Although I can understand where you might think that. In the UP you don't deal with anything close to the major population areas in southern Michigan. Now do not take that as all the complaints are in southern Michigan because they are not. Many of those complaints come from northern Michigan about the "trolls" coming up there to hunt. I will give you an perfect example, "shining", do you know there is a bill in the legislature right now to further restrict shining? The DNR is attempting to fight it off or at the very least make it less restrictive than the current bill is written. It's a perfect example of "the people" (including hunters), creating more restrictive and confussing rules. Some of the legislation states you may not shine private property without permission. Examine that for a minute and I would guess that anyone, including members of this site, that live in an area where shining happens has had their house lit up with a 1,000,000 candle power spotlight, southern Michigan, northern Michigan and the U.P., the people are behind that, not the DNR.

I see nothing above that is imaginary, there are a lot of reasons for all of those. I guess I am glad that none of those situations happen in the area that you are familar with and I don't agree with all of the actions stated that have, will, or might happen but I can understand why they happened when I look at the "BIG PICTURE". We the people (again including hunters) are our own worst enemey.



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"A particular virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of the conduct, whatever the acts, they are dictated by their own conscience, rather than that of onlookers."
Aldo Leopold

[Eastern Yooper]

Interesting point about the shining, boher. Originally, however, one used to be able to shine so long as no weapons were in the vehicle. Then it closed for all of November. Then it was further restricted so shining could only occur until 11 p.m.

Was it 'the people'..... or the DNR Law enforcement Division behind this one?

Lets move on to blinds. Seems to me this was never an issue until the psycho nut-job in Seney cold-heartedly murdered those bear hunters a few years back. I specifically remember the Law Enforcement Division stating that confrontations between hunters were becoming more and more frequent due to 'Hunters becoming more territorial and protective' of areas they felt were 'theirs' upon state lands.
In point of fact, those murders had absolutely nothing to due with hunting, as the family of the slain victim stated in repeated 'open forums' to the newspapers. Yet the DNR seized the opportunity, and WALLAH! Look at the restrictions now imposed on constructing/using blinds upon state and/or federal lands. Was this law "the will of the people"..... or the Law Enforcement Division?

Interesting side point: Place an ice-shanty out on any public body of water, and lock it. Say you return the next day to find the lock broken, and someone sitting in your shanty. Now lets change the scenario to a locked deer blind upon public lands. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Now lets examine baiting: This has always been a topic of heated debate within the hunting community, and probably always will be. Suffice it to say, I feel the 5 gallon limit is a good compromise for all. I do not think the LP fellas should be limited to 2.... but they are. Unfortunately, some people were abusing bait by dumping large masses of feed at a time (read: Literally Tons!). However, I think the spreading of feed out in a 10x10 area is ridiculous. The DNR and NRC claim this is to further prevent the spread of TB. TB is a whole 'nother story (which I won't divulge into here)..... but ANYONE who has ever watched deer feed in an agricultural field or deer yard knows the 10x10 rule is a ridiculous one.

In closing, I would like to say this: Boher, you give implications that I live in a sheltered, protected area free from negative experiences. Not true. I hunted for years on public lands, both in the U.P. and downstate. 99% of the fellow sportsman I met were considerate, thoughtful, and law-abiding. Yours is a rather typical response from a C/O: That its a 'War-Zone' out there, and its 'Us against them'. Hogwash! I will agree that people constructing permanent blinds on public property; or shining houses; or cutting trees to make 4-wheeler trails; etc. should be dealt with. But is it neccessary to penalize those of us who shine deer for enjoyment? Or those who would construct a blind a month before the season opener?

We do not need any more laws on the books. In point of fact, we could use less. This kinda mirrors gun-control from my perspective.

And Boher, you seem to be taking my remarks are personal attacks. Please don't. I fully realize that the DNR biologists and other field staff have been working under a heavy workload and low man-power thanks to our illustrious Gov-ner. I am merely offering some other viewpoints on the situation as a whole, while you seem hell-bent on defending the DNR as if they do no wrong.



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VEGETARIAN: Indian word meaning 'Bad Hunter'

[boehr]

Eastern Yooper...I must address your last post because my previous post was not an attack against you but it was to clear up misconceptions.

Shining...I worked in the UP when you could shine at anytime without a firearm or bow in the vehicle and when the current law did change. You would also find, even now that there are many CO's out there that believe it should not have changed, I’m not one of those but that’s my opinion. At that time the law had to be changed by the legislature and yes it was the will of the people that got the law changed, they thought it would prevent others from shooting (poaching) deer. Just as the current shining law has to be changed by the legislature and the current proposed bill in the legislature. The people want that law, for the reasons in my previous post, not the DNR or the DNR wouldn’t be against it!

Blinds...Again somethings left no choice but for something to be done. In fact, loggers in the U.P. had a lot of input into this one because of damage to equipment with nails in trees etc. Down state where state lands were much more crowded and confrontations to who was going to use the blind regardless of who built it and then on top of it the junk that got left behind littering up the public land. People on this site have posted about some of the slobs out there, we all know it. Very similar to what happen with bear baiting and all the crap that got left behind which imposed restriction on bear baits. Yes, Law Enforcement Division did assist in the rules but the question is why? You answered your own question in your own post, because of the people and complaints by the people that something had to be changed. Of course if the DNR and/or Law Division didn't do anything then you could say that the DNR didn't care. You talk about the murders, that was the press putting out the information about an alleged confrontation. That also was only one incident and laws don't change because of one incident, I believe you realize that. Most of the problem on territorial issues happen in the L.P., but not all.

Comparing ice shanties and hunting blinds on state lands you are mixing apples and oranges, period. Two completely different issues here if you stop and think about it.

Baiting, this issue has been going on for years with even differences of opinion on this forum. So, you want to say that there is no will of the people with the baiting issue? Come on! TB, not going to go there, enough information on that to cover everyone’s different opinion.

A statement you then make, "This kinda mirrors gun-control from my perspective." You really need to explain that statement.

As far as you indication about ‘just like duck hunting’, I’m sure you know but must have forgot when you blame the DNR, the feds make these rules with very little input from the state.


No, I don't take anyone’s statement as personal attacks unless they say it is personal. Nor am I attacking you, but I can express my opinion as you have yours. The other readers can decide for themselves from their own reading of the posts. As far as defending the DNR, you bet! Always will when there seems to be misleading information out there but I will only defend the DNR as to the facts and not some small point as I earlier said the BIG PICTURE. As far as saying the DNR does no wrong, your words not mine.

[lawnboy]

Lack of hunters...I thought it was going to go that way. I got up to a spot in Clare and I didn't see anyone until the night before opening...man you would of thought they were giving free stuff away. People were pulling in all night long. But as for the gun shots...I would say low in numbers.


Are people fed up with the tb thing?

[Jumpshootin']

I've been hunting all season here around Interlochen, and I haven't heard a shot yet that sounded as if it was within 5 miles of me. I've only seen two other hunters in the woods this year, and neither of them seemed to be hunting very seriously. Both were only about 100 yards from where they parked their truck.

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Take a Kid Hunting!