Wheeler Archery

[SA ULTRA MAG]

I need to purchase a new bow this year, maybe two.

Does anyone here have any first hand experience with Wheeler bows that are made in Mount Pleasant Michigan.

Have you heard any stories about Wheeler bows ? Good or bad.
I believe that they use to be called Blue Water bows.

If you don't want to post here please PM me.

Thanks,
Pat

[Elk Guide]

sa ultra mag....i live in the area near where wheeler bows are made.........they are put together north of beal city michigan about 4 miles.....he buys parts and puts them together and puts his name on them....he buys his limbs and risers from different companys and his wheels and cables from someone else then puts them together with his name .......as far as i can see they are a parts bow made from left over parts from other companys....these bows could be made from anybodys old or last years left over parts....not one i would want to spend my money on....i have seen them but have never shot them .....you be the judge.......i stoped in there two years ago and that is when he told me how he makes these bows.....there is the possibility he has his own ideas now but it is a real small shop

[twodogsphil]

SA ULTRA MAG

I think Elk Guide needs some new glasses. I've seen some of the Wheeler operation and Mark does not buy old parts from other companies and put together a bow. Mark has a CNC and machines risers of his own design. He also makes his own limbs. He puts out a fast well-made bow. He makes about 5,000 bows a year and has a lot of satisfied customers.

[Trushot_Archer]

Mark Wheeler does not use scraps brother! I promise! He DOES use Bowtech's infinity cam on some of his bows though. His shop is small...it's basically a machine shop.

He has a patented Idler wheel on all his single cams and ....according to him,Mathews will be using HIS limb pocket design soon.He doesn't seem like the BS type.

My suggestion is to call him. Chances are he'll answer the phone, and just tell him what your looking for. Wheeler WILL be my next bow. I have to admit though I've never shot one...but after talking to the guy... he knows his stuff.

The company used to be called Blue Mountain Archery. Even then they were solid bows.http://www.wheelerarchery.com/
The model names are a little goofy to me, but that's Blue Mountain.

[Swamp Monster]

SA Ultra mag, I agree with twodogs and trushot, these bows are not just scrap parts put together. His shop is in Weidmann Michigan, north east of Remus. If you want to shoot one of these, check out Vics Archery in Grandville. They are located just south of River Town Crossing on Wilson Ave. The models I have looked at are as well put together as any I've seen. I expect this company to have a good future. I used to live in that area and Blue Mountain had a very loyal following. I hadn't put the two together until Trushot mentioned Blue Mountain, but it makes perfect sense now.

[east bay ed]

most bow companies out there buy parts from other people and assemble the bow. how do you think matthews gets away with employing 30 people. i would not worry a lot about that. the biggest concern i would have is that the chance they will not last long is a real concern. i remember in 92 or 93 when they first came out they sold a lot of bows. they didn't last (the company) 10 years. i don't think the archery market is any better now then it was 4 years ago. i really hope i am wrong, but that is my opinion. that said i wish them lots of luck.

[Swamp Monster]

I think there is room for small companies in the archery market. Companies like Mathews, Hoyt, PSE, Martin, etc will always control a large share of the market but archery gear is such a personal choice, not a one size fits all, that these small companies have a chance. Brand loyalty is always a big deal but most people I know don't shoot a bow based on it's brand name only. Ofcourse some do....the ego buyers I call them. If the products are good they have a chance. It's a tough road though, especially when competing against he giants! Most of these companies will, for the most part, always be small and their market mey only be regional for the most part . I have to imagine that developing a large dealer base would have to be tough also, just based on the fact that most shops can only handle a small variety of brands to begin with. Anyway, the quality of their product is good and I hope they make good go of it.

[Elk Guide]

hey guys.......sorry if i ruffled your feathers trueshot but i have lived here all my life and he did use old parts he may not now but he did.......i don't know a single person who has one of his bows ..i dirve by his place every day and there are never any vehicles in his parking lot so there not running over there to buy one of his bows.....maybe they are a good bow but if so why dont' people from the area talk about them and theres isn't a archery shop other than his that carrys them...but i tell you what i will go up and look at them today and get back with you on this ..i will see what these bows are all about and post back here later with any info i can find out.......see ya

[Trushot_Archer]

No worries Elk Guide...Like I said I never shot one and have never been to his shop. All I have to go on is pics and Mark's words. If you do stop in there let me know what you think.

[east bay ed]

i know when it was blue mountain they sold a good number of bows. i kicked myself in the ***** for not picking them up when i had the chance. i'll never forget the rep tried to convince me that the average guy wanted to pay $400.00+ for a machined riser bow. i told him he was nuts. guess i was wrong eh?
one thing with the small companies is that production wise there is a point when you make more bows and don't make more money. i know when i was in tucson at pse's factory we talked about that at around 65000 bows or so you have to make a commitment to jump that figure by 15000 to 20000 to make any more money. thus pse's distributor line and hoyts reflex line.

[Swamp Monster]

SA Ultra Mag, I stopped in to Vics Archery last night. They had a few Wheelers in stock but I believe they were last years models. All were twin cam models.

[SA ULTRA MAG]

Thanks guys for all the comments / feedback.

Swamp Monster - thanks, I talked to Vic at the Hunting Time Expo last Sunday. I looked at the few that they had at the show. Vic was alot of help but I wanted some unbias opinions from the guys on M-S.com that know more than myself. I'm actually looking at going back to a dual cam bow anyway.

Thanks again,
Pat

[Swamp Monster]

Vic does a good job and he's still a big proponant of dual cams. He's never liked any of the single cams as far as I know. Normally he shoots a Black Widow long bow.

[SA ULTRA MAG]

Swamp Monster,

That was the first time I talked to Vic about bows but was impressed with his knowledge.

I think that it'll either be a Hoyt or Wheeler from Vic's this year as my 13 year has out grown his youth Hoyt already. Who knows, I might even part with the Mathews and get into a new and improved model. ;)

Thanks,
Pat

[Trushot_Archer]

When I spoke with Mark from Wheeler he mentioned an interesting fact that I was not aware of. If you have two identical bows...70# limbs and the same riser...one has a single cam and one's a Dually....the Single cam will be a 60#bow while the Dually will be 70#! I asked how that could be and he said it was the efficiency of the dually. Take a single cam and put a top cam on it and you increase the poundage at LEAST 10#. I though it was interesting.
I currently shoot a Bowtech single cam...but my next bow will be a dually!

[SA ULTRA MAG]

I could be wrong but this is what I thought that Vic told me on Sunday.

If you shoot 2 identical bows except one is a single cam and one is a dual cam that the dual cam will have more sustained down range speed and more down range penatration.

Would this make sense to what Trushot_Archer said or did I just repeat what he said in a different way ?

I was told that there is not an advantage in single cams like what we've all been told for the last few years.

I'm so confused. :confused:

Thanks,
Pat

[Swamp Monster]

I don't think a single cam as any advantage over a properly tuned and timed twin cam bow. The twin cams have been proven to be more forgiving, when all things are equal. I do think that most twin cams require a little more work to keep maintained than do single cams, but single cams are far from being problem free. I have read somewhere that when twin cams are out of "time" the slower cam actually catches up at the release of the shot, and it's this out of sequence movement that rocks the bow slightly, and sends the shot off target. I read this in an article about the cam.5 I think...... the arguement that twin cams have far more recoil doesn't hold a lot of weight with me. Take todays vibration dampening technology such as Mathews riser dampaners or Hoyts Tec design and other things such as Parallel limb design and I think two cams can be built to be just as smooth and quiet as a single.
I don't know, alot of the trends are marketing driven and we the consumer are to blame somewhat. Having said that, the bows available today are still tremendously better than those of just a couple of years ago. Unfortunetly, at todays prices, most can't afford to upgrade very often.
It all comes down to the fact that you have to shoot whats best for you, regardless of the cam design and brand name on the limbs.
On a side note, Vic will take very good care of you and he has a very kid friendly shop. It's a family business and all in the shop are very helpfull. If you spend any amount of time there, I will warn you now, be careful or you might get bitten by the traditional bug. Lots of traditional shooter there.

[SA ULTRA MAG]

Never say never but I like to have high tech things. I will never go to the traditional ways. I will not push for it but if they ever legalize cross bows my compund will be for sale. :)

Thanks again guys, a trip to Vic's Archery is in my future.

Pat

[Banditto]

To jump in late in the conversation.

I am curious what their Dakota String System is.

[MIBIGHNTR]

Swamp / SA -

This is all so confusing.....:confused:

If you call and talk to a devote Hoyt shop, they will push the virtues of the Hoyt's. If you call a Mathews shop, they will push the vitures of a Mathews.

So, what do you do???

Is the timing issue really a concern? How often does a bow go "out-of-tune"?

I called a GR shop that carries Mathews and they are still pushing the idea that a single-cam bow will not go out-of-tune and that is the reason they are superior. They quoted a recent archery tournament in FL where a Hoyt shooter was near the top of the pack until his bow "went out-of-tune", and then he crashed and burned. Who knows if this is accurate??? There is also the Mathews literature that states so many of the top tourney archers are shooting Mathews, is this accurate? They did state, however, that the reason for the new V-Lock limb pocket design was at the request of one of their tourney archers whose limb pockets had become sloppy. The guy I spoke with didn't seem to know how the new V-Lock limb pockets work, but they were "much better". It appears to me that there are simply two angles that mate together for a long bearing surface to lock into. However, if these two angles are not precisely the same, the point at which they mate will actually be a single point (on each side), and that wouldn't seem to be good???

I haven't had a chance to examine the Hoyt limb pockets too closely yet, but according to literature, they lock in two different ways???

It would certainly be nice if you could compare the vertues of two products based on sound facts on engineered improvements, or lack of.

BTW - SA, If your are looking for a crossbow, you could go to something like a 3/4-draw. I heard that those things work pretty well???

MIBIGHNTR

[Swamp Monster]

MIBIGHNTR, it's pretty tough to make an educated decision when everyone has their own idea on whats is right and wrong. Mathews and Hoyt are the two big dogs in the archery world and neither wants the other to have an edge so they both claim that the others product is inferior. Check out Mathews latest catalogue, they claim to have tried the cam.5 back in 93' and decided it was not as good as the single cam....can you believe that or were they caught with their pants down and are trying to save face? I don't know. In reality, both are quality products but one may feel more 'right" for the individual.
As far as the tuning goes, cams are only one small part of the whole package. The guy you talked to said the Hoyt went out of tune, but what did he mean? Cams out of time? Nocking point changed due to the heat and string stretch? Arrow rest come out of adjustment? A single cam eliminates the timing between to cams, but they are more prone to string stretch (not all but most) which will cause crazy things to happen to your nocking point when you release etc. I recently read an article where a tester deliberatly set the Hoyt cam.5 on different settings from each other to see if this would effect the timing of each cam and he could notmake it happen, the bow shot fine. Now do we believe this or must we see for ourselves? As far as the limb pockets are concerned, imo, there is not a better design than the Hoyts machined pockets...the fit and finish is exceptional. The V-lock from Mathews is not really new, new materials and tighter tolerances, yes but not new. My old Proline and a few others had similiar designs long ago. They did not include pivoting limb pockets, but the limbs were fully contained none the less. I think the pivoting limb pockets are a necessity with the parallel limb design. I am not an engineer either so I may be missing the boat on some of the finer points and reasonings for this V-lock thing. But I refuse to believe that they are better than anything else just because the company claims them to be. I sometimes think, how much better can these bows get anyway? I recently shot a Mathews Icon and I couldn't even feel the shot in my bow arm..how much smoother can it get?
Confused still? If your not I am!

[MIBIGHNTR]

Swamp -

The guy at the Mathews shop said that the string stretches less on the Mathews because it has a single string vs. the Hoyt which has two??? I guess I figure that stretch is stretch, whether you have one string or ten, stretch will always be a factor. Now, how big of a factor will it be??? Who knows? Probably a big factor for the guys who leaves his bow in the truck of his car/truck in the middle of July! After you shoot a new bow, or string, several hundred times, I would think that most of the stretch would have occured? Now if your nock is true at that point, and your cams in time, would anything cause the whole thing to go to hell? Other than mis-use and abuse?

I'm just trying to look at this whole debate with an open mind......It would be nice if the shops did the same! Some individuals are just to brand-loyal to see beyond the end of their nose.

MIBIGHNTR

[Swamp Monster]

A single longer string will have a much higher chance of stretching than two shorter strings, all things being equal. Atleast that is what I have been told by a number of proshops pushing different brands of bows. Mathews and Hoyt both spec premium stings, though the Mathews may have the better of the two. String material today is much better than it was and the stretch should be minimal at best anyway. And you can buy pre stretched strings already when it comes time to replace the factory string. The last factory string I used stretched nearly two inches over the course of three years...most of the stretching occured during the summer when shooting in hot weather. My bow went from 29" draw to 30.5" and 67# to 74# in a matter of three weeks. The strings were due to be replaced and I put premium strings (can't remember the brand but it was about $100 worth) and never had another problem. Stretch is an issue with any bow at some point. I like to go to shops that carry each brand I'm interested in and find out what the folks there think. At one shop that carries Mathews/Hoyt/Bowtech, the three main bows I'm interested in, the owner likes all three and gives pro's and cons of each. He also says most people shoot the top two that their interested in on a number of occasions before they can make a decision. He says that the Hoyts and Mathews are about even as far as sales go with Bowtech being the next most popular. Yet in the target league he shoots a Martin, but doesn't sell nearly as many. So who knows?
Shoot em' all and then shoot em' again. And keep shootin' till ya find the one you like the most....or just buy two or three different models and cover all the bases!!
I know there are others here that can give you some excellent input on these matters.

[MIBIGHNTR]

I ran out at lunch and shot the Havotec and Razortec. They are both very nice and I had trouble telling the difference between the two. The Havoctec has a shorter a/a but higher brace height, the Razortec just the opposite. Not much time to shoot the Legacy and they don't have an LX yet, so I will have to wait and see. I would also like to include the Ultratech, but they were sold out at the moment.

Thanks Swamp!

MIBIGHNTR

[Banditto]

-- "Is the timing issue really a concern? How often does a bow go "out-of-tune"?"

This is a tough one to call. I will side with doom-and-gloom here, and also what 90% of bow manufacturer suggest. To keep your bow in perfect working condition Mathews and Hoyt to name a few feel you should change your string at least every other year. Things that really affect how fast your string stretches are shock, tensile load, and speed of the bow, etc.

It is funny, but I have seen so many bows out of tune that the owner adjusts (without even knowing) and learns to shoot the bow with the problem. More power to them if they can make it work... And if your bow doesn't have problems like that, and your string is 10 years old. GREAT! good for you and be thankful it works that well for you.

When your string stretches your bow will be very noticable out of tune with a dual cam bow--poor flight patterns, poor impact. For that matter it will even be slightly out of tune with a single cam bow but without the noticable effects.

In my opinon there are only a few bow manufacturer that uses a "premium" string. Mathews and Hoyt stock strings are disposable. Granted Mathews does make a high quality string called Tiger, they just don't ship it on your bow. They want you to call in and complain about your string where they suggest you upgrade to the premium string.

[Swamp Monster]

Banditto, I agree about the Mathews and Hoyt Strings. Hoyt improved theirs this year but and it's still not as good as some of the aftermarket sets. I thought the Mathews made string was the Zebra Twist? Or is Tiger their new design? Bowtech strings their bow with Winners Choice, it doesn't get much better than that. Champion also makes their own strings that are supposedly as good as anything on the market. I think for the price the high end bows cost, the string should be top quality right from the factory.

[Grouse Hunter]

I know this is an old thread, but has anyone heard anything from this company recently? Where can I see one of these bows in SOuthern MI?

[Trushot_Archer]

Where's Deputy?? He hinted that he had an insiders scoop on the 2004 lineup but NEVER DELIVERED:D

The websites been down a while now.

Here's the number to the shop 1-989-644-5825

And here's alink (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3657326527&category=20838) to a 2003 model on ebay.

I'd say call the number and ask for Mark. He doesn't know me from Adam and when I called we talked for a while about his stuff and what he was doing...very nice guy, knowledgable and pleasant to deal with.

[deputy]

havent heard much yet he hasnt got back to me if it became a reallity or not yet!

[QuakrTrakr]

My good buddy has one he bought 5 years ago. He loves it. Said he'll never use another. He's been bowhunting over 20 years. They had a booth at the Safari Club Meeting at the casino in Mt. Pleasant last weekend. He had his latest bows there.

[Elk Guide]

Ok i promised i would find out some information for you guys and so i went to the safari club hunting show friday afternoon.....talked to Mark he said he didnt have many 2004 bows because of the demand for them but he is geting me information on them and i will post about them as soon as i get it....he is only building a twin cam bow for 2004 i got to look at some of his prototypes for this year they look real nice.......I did however think the $600 price tag was a little stiff ....i will post more info as soon as i get it .....take care

[Trushot_Archer]

Hey Guide, did you notice the limb cups? Any changes in that dept.?

IMO the dual cam bows are already on the comeback and we haven't hit enar the peak yet... he may be ahead of the game a little with only doing the duallys. Hopefully he can keep up with the demand.

[Elk Guide]

Trushot_archer........he said something about the cups being deeper does that make sense.....also that his new bows were a true center shot .......they look really nice and sound good but until i get the liteture i am not sure exactly what he was talking about......$600 plus sounds a little steap but i havent shot one yet either but i will,,,,also he only has two people working for him so how many they can build and how fast i just dont know that either.......i have know him and his brother along time but not sure where he got his knowledge of bows....when he lets me know i will go shoot one and report back but i dont know how long that will be from now....have a great day

[deputy]

kelly, I need reservations for two tomorrow night ! maybe 8pm ill call you later

[Trushot_Archer]

???? If you stop in tonight bring your bow...it's league night and you can come along. Goofy Alpine and all:D :D

EG...he's had a patant on a centline idler wheel for a while...great for the single, but if he's rolling with the dually's like that now that will be interesting.

The limb cups are supposed to be very low tolerance and have no play other than the actual pivot. Provides a more accurate bow longer.

The only issue I ever had with them was the recoil and noise. Damn they were loud and really vibrated compared to most I've shot, but they were all bare (and I mean BARE) bows where many come stock with saver and leeches etc.

I'd still like to see the new stuff.

[Elk Guide]

trushot_archer........I still dont have the info he is rather slow ....he did say somthing about the bows being quiet not sure if they are or not i need to get over there to shoot one....i am about 16 miles from him so i will see if i can catch him there....i have stopped several times at his shop and no one has been there....i guess he does all the sales rep stuff his self.....i have been trying to convince him to hire me as his sales rep and he can have more time to work on his bows but no luck....as soon as i get the info i will post again .....i'm sorry its taking so long....

[deputy]

if you shoot that wheeler anything like you cook forget it dinner was good the other night and of course your staff was top notch, man do i love that wine list! iam going broke! lol maybe next week! menu idea for yah! tatter tots and sloppy joes :D

[Trushot_Archer]

Hey Steve,
Fortunately for Michigan's deer herd...I'm a better cook than hunter:D

No time pressure Elk Guide...just curious mostly. I'd like to see the guy succeed with his venture there, but I can imagine how tough it must be trying to do everything himself.

[twodogsphil]

FYI. Anyone on this thread who's expressed an interest in Wheeler bows, Marks got a vendor booth at the Lansing Deer Spectacular. Visit his booth, talk with him, shoot his bows. The show runs through Sunday the 28th.

[thornapple]

He is also giving some very good deals at the show. I shot one on friday and although its regularly priced at 600 he said its going for 400 at the show. The only problem was the hand shock seemed really bad. Although they looked like a very well built bow it wasnt for me. Soon Gander Mountain will be carrying some of his models.

[Swamp Monster]

Vics archery in Grandville carries them too I believe. I saw them at the show in GR, look very well built as Thornapple mentioned. I did not shoot any....just in case ya know?!

[Elk Guide]

Ok Guys......I went to the deer & turkey spectacular and did talk to mark about his bows he said he forgot to send me the information i requested so i could post on here about his bows...I made three attempts to catch him at the shop but all three times there was no one there so when i got to the show i went to his booth and had a talk with him and shot his bows....to me they are to herky jerky i like a smooth pull and easy roll over but i didn't get it with his bows...my question is this if he never got back with me and he knows me personaly how good is his repair service.....i dont know and have nothing againest him but will not be spending my money on one of these bows...because of his lack of respect to get back with me ,i like prompt service which i didnt get here.....and in my opinion they are a bit pricey but you guys make your own dicision based on your experience with him....thanks sorry i couldn't give a better assessment ..

[Grouse Hunter]

Just checked their website is finally up

www.wheelerarchery.com

[Trushot_Archer]

Well. The site was worth the wait for me. Very Cool.

Thanks for the update Grouse.

[Banditto]

Elk Guide, sounds like the owner has more things going then he can handle. If the bow didn't feel right did you tell him about it? I would be interested to hear if anybody else had the same experience.

That is one thing that I can't live with, it has to be correct right out of the box. I have lived with too many poorly designed archery things to go through it.

[larrylad]

I have shot Wheeler Bows Since he started making them. He bought out Blue Mountains inventory and started his shop that way. He later got a CNC machine and started making his own risers and inventing some other enhancements.
He made me , I dont shoot much weight anymore, a solo cam that peaks at about 54lbs, which I shoot at about 47 right now.
I have taken about 10 whitetails and two bear with the bow I currently have. I am heading off for another bear hunt next August 2009
He fell off the scene for awhile as a new CNC machine that he purchased, ( they are very expensive) never worked properly. The company got into trouble as it happend to several other people.
He now is working on a new bow line and is waiting on another patent right now. Sometime this spring the new line of bows should be ready and he should be off to compete with all those other bow makers.

[bigdoedown]

I own one of Marks Arcadus bows and it is fantastic, forgiving as a Mathews and shoots as hard and carries connetic energy like a PSE... He makes his own parts and I have seen it with my own eyes, so elk guide you should not tell lies about things you do not know about. Mark is hard to get ahold of as he works a day job and sometimes has to go out of town, but he will get back with you if you leave a message... He is just starting to get back going and is making a couple new bow models and he stands behind his work....

[bigdoedown]

The thing I see in the difference between my wheeler bow and my buddies mathews is energy... We shoot almost exactly the same poundage and have shot together at the dart system. When my arrow hits it makes a much larger thump than the single cam mathews... And I can count quite a few freinds that have complained about a not pass thru shot with there single cams on deer... But I also shoot ACC arrows and try to keep my hunting set up at 400 grains altogther and have busted many shoulder blades. So what I am saying is that as long as they still have dual cam bows I will never hunt with a single cam bow...:yikes:

[Frantz]

I have owned one of his bows for a number of years and the only thing I dislike about my Wheeler, is not being able to get in touch with Mark since I bought it. The product is great, he just needs to gt his head back into the groove here and move forward with a brilliant product.

[Sheldon44]

You WONT be sorry with wheeler. Iv had a wheeler bow for about two years now and it shoots GREAT. Its fast, quiet, light wight. Iv killed lots of deer with it. Iv shot lots of other bows and its just like shooting a big brand name bow without it costing an arm and a leg. I got the bow its self on 100.9 radio auction for $300. Trust me. go with wheeler.