Changing the mind of an Anti-Hunter [Archive] - The Michigan Sportsman Forums

Airoh

02-07-2001, 04:45 PM

The best ammo ever used on one fellow worker was an elk steak. He was against hunting and was vocal about it. After eating the steak he somehow related meat with an animal. After that it was "OK" by him if people wanted to hunt.(not him)
I've found that many people who say they don't like hunting have not put much thought into it either way. They are not hunters so it's not high on their list of things to ponder. Many light and easy conversations on the subject have worked for me better than one or two hot ones. IF he is a meat eater you usually have an upper hand on the subject. Hunters are into the processing of an animal at an earlier stage than non-hunters. Sometimes that is a bloody thought to them, but it is a fact. He needs to realize that he hires all his animal processing.

RealDcoy

02-07-2001, 04:57 PM

At least he is willing to talk about it and accept that you hunt. That is a great start.

Personally, I think the first place to start is, "Are you a vegetarian?". If the answer is "No" and they think hunting is barbaric, then I don't think that person has experienced reality with the production of food.

I can't understand why others that eat meat abbhor hunting. They will readily eat a steak form the supermarket, yet put me down because I am willing to track down the animal myself, kill it, have it processed, and eat it. They seem to feel better about themselves because they didn't pul the trigger, yet they benefit fom the kill. Even PETA has stated, "It is true that quickly killing an animal in the wild is much less cruel than factory farming".

It doesn't sound like this person is really trying to turn you off from hunting, and I wouldn't necessarily try to get them into the deer blind with you, or make them become a vegetarian.(Although I would respect their anti hunting opinion more if they were.) I would just try to ask them to understand that you and millions of other hunters most likely appreciate an animals death to provide food 10 timies more than those that pick up the cellophane wrapped T-bone, and never think where it came from. How someone can condone the sacrfice of a cow by a butcher, yet hate the hunter for providing the same thing for himself is beyond me.

http://www.members.aol.com/realdcoy/myhomepage/penny http://www.members.aol.com/realdcoy/myhomepage/penny

"My two cents."
-Real

[This message has been edited by RealDcoy (edited 02-07-2001).]

shooter921

02-07-2001, 05:00 PM

song_dog_slammer I agree with you 100%.

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Time to get those reels back in the water, and catch some BIG fish!

Recurve

02-07-2001, 05:07 PM

Good points Airoh and RealDecoy. It's tough to convince someone who is against hunting because they usually equate it only with killing. If they are a vegan it's even tougher, because they don't eat meat. If you look you can usually find hypocrisy. These people don't understand the food chain, of which we are a part, they don't understand the circle of life or the history of man. It makes for a tough sell. The more man becomes urbanized the more mutated he becomes. I respect someone who chooses not to hunt, likewise they should respect us.

[This message has been edited by Recurve (edited 02-07-2001).]

Recurve

02-07-2001, 05:13 PM

Ooopps!

[This message has been edited by Recurve (edited 02-07-2001).]

Coldwater Charters

02-07-2001, 07:09 PM

jbaugher, I hate to be the only one that has any reality in there post but you're beating your head against the wall. I call this the sledge hammer affect. If you recall a post reguarding crossbows, how both sides stood there ground even though facts proved that one side was wrong in there opinions on the issues. They still would not listen to the facts. Now which side I will not say, but my point is just this, once an opinion is made especially with an educated or older person, pride amoung other things will not allow them to change there minds. It is nothing personal although they may try to make it personal. Know yourself and that your decisions are just. I know the situation is tuff especially if you are an avid hunter. Remember this, the SLEDGE HAMMER AFFECT is terminal, you won't change there mind but 0nly re-arange it a little.LOL :)

RealDcoy

02-07-2001, 10:25 PM

Sorry C.Charter, I don't agree.

I think that attitude may be a little dangerous.

Yes, you will certainly have people that will not change their mind, however as we all know hunting and gun rights issues are not won and lost by those most diametrically (sp) opposed, but by those in the middle.

This fellow worker may have had no contact with hunting other than one sided presentations by anti hunting groups that do not present the whole issue.

How about this- This year I was SCREAMED at by a woman that lives down the alley because she just happened to drive by as I was moving the doe I had taken into the garage. She said I was traumatizing her 7 year old kid by doing that while they were going by. He said, "Nobody should kill animals." This all while- NO LIE- HE IS EATING A McDONALDS HAMBURGER!!!

I said politely, "Where do you think that hamburger came from?" The mother says," F*** YOU - All he needs to know is it comes from McDonalds."

Can you believe that kid is 7 and doesn't know where that meat came from?

I know that's not the same as an educated 40 year old, but I know a few of those too that have never been around hunting, nor a farm, and think that farmers treat their stock like their favorite pet dog.

If you have a Anti who doesn't care to have any rational discussion, sure, don't bust your head on the wall. This sounds like someone that will at least discuss the issue. Even if you only get the other person to say, " Ok. You've got a point there." or, "I never thought of it that way, but I still won't hunt." you have changed part of their mind. In that way, you must just change their mind enough that they would think hunting should be allowed, they just won't do it themselves.

You just might get another person in the middle to lean towards our side of the ship.

C. Charter, by saying:
I hate to be the only one that has any reality in there post but you're beating your head against the wall.

Suggesting that people not even try to explain our side,I feel that you don't help our side at all at all. That is the reality.

Recurve

02-07-2001, 10:48 PM

RealDcoy, If enough hunters could state their case as eloquently as you we would probably be further ahead as a group.

Your story of the mother and her son is unbelievable and to think it happened "up north" too! People are just out of touch with reality today.

A friend of mine who lives in Florida and is an avid fisherman, invited an associate of his and his young son out for a day of salt water fishing. While my friend was setting up the live baits the kid started throwing a fit yelling, "Dad! He's hurting the fish!! He's hurting the fish!!" The father, somewhat embarrassed tryed to make an impromtu explanation about the food chain, etc. This kid didn't have any idea where his food comes from. The sad thing about it is that there are many more just like him out there. It's a shame.

Coldwater Charters

02-08-2001, 12:01 AM

Real decoy I fully agree with you on the middle ground people. That was quite a deal with the lady and her kid. That is the Sledge hammer affect person or do you think you want to chase her down and talk to her and tell her your side of the hunting thing. I was relating what the jbaugher said about his co-worker. Here's the quote. "He is a very educated man. After talking to him for sometime I found out his view on hunting. He believes that it is barbaric. He does not have a problem that I am hunter but we have gotten into debates about it". It sounds like he thinks it's alright that jbaugher hunts but I doubt it. He used some pretty strong words that cannot be mistaken for middle ground. Barbaric is very strong when it is related to hunting. I would almost bet that this guy will be trying to talk jbaugher out of hunting because of his feelings on the issue. Sometimes it is best to retreat and fight the ones you can win. I've dealt with people like the lady you talked about and this man that works with jbaugher, there is no middle grounds with statements like what they made, it just better left to there beliefs and try to help the ones that are willing to try understand you interests. You cannot help someone understand that won't listen. And no I am not willing to bandy words with people like that, there oppinions are locked up in a volt and unapproachable. If you want to waste your time I have better things then to argue with folks like that. Realdecoy let me ask you this do you think that lady would be willing to listen as you explained why you hunt? I don't think so!! So why waste your time. I take more people that don't hunt or fish much into blinds and on the fish all year long don't tell me I can't tell a hopeless case when I see em. You're references to me as little dangerous pissed me off a little. I've been around long enough to know the difference between the middle and far right. So maybe re-read the original post again and see it for what it is. I have no bleeding heart. I call em like I see em.

02-08-2001, 03:49 AM

Cold Water: I aggree with you .To begin with at work is not a good place to debate this issue. 1. you should be doing construcive things that your paid to do. 2.If the debate becomes spitefull it can make it a very unpleasant place to work for a long time perhaps maybe for as long as you both work there. Just save your self a lot of grief and frustration and change the subject .Remember when Cloumbus tried debating that the world was round and people INSISTED he was crazy and that the world was flat.

[This message has been edited by sportsmaster (edited 02-09-2001).]

Sarge

02-08-2001, 08:34 AM

Here is a bit of a curve ball. Why try to change his opinion at all? This world is made up of every kind of person. If you have a co-worker who is non-hunting, but feels its ok for you, chances are very good that he will never take up a stance against hunting in general. He will just go on in life not wanting to do it himself. That really sounds like a perfect relationship with the other side of the coin.

I enjoy dancing but hate ballet. I’m trying to equate that to someone who eats meat but doesn’t want to hunt. In the case of dancing, it would be a waste of time for me and a ballet dancer to try to convince each other that the other’s form of dancing is attractive and should be done by all dancers. I’m only saying that if a non-hunter isn’t anti hunting, and shows a reluctance to be convinced, leave him be. As long as he isn’t ANTI he will not be your enemy.

If you carefully live the life of a hunter in his presence and don’t go off the deep end, he will eventually observe for himself that you are not a bloodthirsty killer. You aren’t are you? Also if you don’t make a noticeable effort to recruit him, you won’t have the chance to drive him to the anti side, by over eager words or actions.

I have a female co-worker who is vegetarian and animal LOVER, and she’s definitely a NON-HUNTER. Over a period of several years, she has become less and less stern in her views toward hunting. She realizes that there are some hunters out there who are not the classic Bambi slaughterers. She has begun to realize that a deer killed instantly with a bullet is better off than one that had been hit by a vehicle, or starves and dies slowly and painfully. Alas she still thinks that none should ever die, but knows they all do someday. Since she’s vegetarian she will not try any venison, but makes no negative comments or actions when I bring some in for a goody day. I think that this kind of relationship is a major step toward getting her off the anti hunting bandwagon. In a word picture, she now just rides that bandwagon with a quizzical look on her face where as she used to drive the thing.

I noticed after I first posted this, that you do say he is anti hunting. In that case some of my comments are not accurate examples, but the overall point of view is the same.

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Sarge

Live your conscience. Leave others to theirs.

[This message has been edited by Sarge (edited 02-08-2001).]

jbaugher

02-08-2001, 08:44 AM

Thanks for all of the input. A few things that I forgot to put in there.

1. The guy is a vegetarian

2. He was also raised in India. I do not think that hunting over there is as big as it is to us but I do know they hunt because my last cube mate was from India and he LOVED to hunt. It was great getting him out in the woods. He was excited more than me to know that we were going hunting.

3. I am also looking for some more facts. Exp: Because Deer are hunted there is less car/deer accidents.

RealDcoy

02-08-2001, 09:13 AM

C. Charter - Sorry you got upset with my commments. I am sure you as well as others know that meaning does not always come across in text. I just think that your saying that you were the only one that has any reality in there post was wrong. There just isn't enough information about the man mentioned by jbaugher to make an assumption of him being a lost cause in my thinking. By using the word barbaric, I think this person just shows how out of touch with the food chain they are.

Sportsmaster made a great case for not continuing a debate though that I just kind of skipped right past. The fact that this is a workmate, and you never know what effect making an "enemy" could cause.

The lady in the story I wrote about certainly is a lost cause. Obviously this person is beyond reach, and no I am not going to track her down. I meant to show how people, (the kid), can grow up without contact to the real world of the food chain. If someone jumps to using profanity because I want to see if her kid knows burgers come from cows.....

Leaving out the work mate issue, my thought about the person referenced is still the same. I called like I saw it too.

Sorry that someone would get "pissed off" at another that shares his views on such a great endevour. I guess I am just not as ready to call the person a lost cause with the little information posted. The fact that I feel like going a little further should not upset anyone here. What harm could it do? People judgements differ, hence, the reason that forums exist. If everyones judgements were the same, an article would suffice.

RealDcoy

02-08-2001, 09:20 AM

I should have refreshed the page before posting.

The fact that he is vegetarian, in my mind, gives more weight to his views. I won't be selling my rods & guns, but at least I can respect his views a lot more.

I just can't believe the amount of people that claim to be in favor of "animal rights", and then pick up their "Coach" or "Gucci" leather purse and get into their Expedition with leather interior that will never go off road, nor tow anything bigger than their one child and 4 bags of groceries.

RUPP

02-08-2001, 09:47 AM

Hey jbaugher,

If we’re to focus just on hunting’s “barbaric” nature, let’s reveal to your Anti friend some of the facts.

It was Fred Bear that said (to paraphrase):
“…many more beasts have suffered by tooth and nail than by my precisely placed arrows…”

Basically he’s making the point that a hunter’s well placed shot is much more humane than that animal being torn to shreds and eaten alive. Whether we like it or not, humans are indeed predators. We are arguably the ultimate predators on this planet. Have been for thousands of years. Influence from society & philosophy can never take this ingrained nature completely out of us. Try to present this to your Anti friend.

It’s my belief that some people simply have more of this residual predator nature than others do. This can even be seen among the hunting community itself. Some of my friends can’t and never will take a certain animal’s life. One buddy can’t shoot a bear, the other chooses not to take certain beasts from Africa while another can’t take a cat, etc. Some of this is due to emotional issues, but I believe that most of it is due to having more or less of this ingrained predator nature within us. It’s genetic, like everything else. Me, I don’t really have a problem with pursuing any animal, which is legal of course. The people who choose not to take one animal or the other are doing so not because they believe that animal should never be taken by anyone, but because they personally have issues with it and cannot take the animal themselves.

Try to relate this phenomenon to your Anti friend, that even hunters themselves cannot take certain animals, but that they still see the good and can understand why others choose to take those same animals.

It’s also a physiological fact that we are predators. For example, we are not ruminants (multi stomachs). We don’t regurgitate and chew our cud. Our digestive systems can handle just about anything we put into it. We have teeth (canines) for tearing flesh, and we have the mental capacity to plan and think ahead.

Now, if a person does not believe this (they’re vegetarian like your friend is) then I believe that he has little hope. If nothing else, tou might as well have fun with him and bring a nice juicy deer steak to eat for lunch ;)

My advice to you - don’t come out blazing on the offensive with facts, statistics and expert opinions. Just try to comfortably reason with the man. That is part of our human nature too.

Good Day,
RUPP

JMesler

02-08-2001, 10:17 AM

Typically, my first question to a non-hunter, as it is for most hunters, is are you a vegetarian. More importantly for myself though, is the question of "Are you a christian"? If the answer is yes, just point that person to the book of Genesis in the bible. It is very clear that stewardship of all animals on our planet is our responsibility, and that hunting and consumption of animals is absolutely acceptable and encouraged. Being that he is from India, christianity may not be his choice, but for future debates, this may be a point to use. Ofcourse I am assuming you yourself are a christian.

02-08-2001, 02:00 PM

It's doubtful you can change a vegitarian. Even when you point out the fact that animals, including humans, that have their eyes on the front of their heads are carnivores. Good proof for evolution too! :) A carnivore needs to have vision that causes paralax in order to judge distance.

I personally don't bother with a veg, it's their health. There is no such thing as a necessary or essential carbohydrate. Some cultures in India worship animals as dieties, you will never change them. However, they know the rest of the world eats meat and should respect your heredity.

When I do run into a particularly nasty or vigilanti type anti-hunter, I remind them where their eyes are AND point out that they have become nothing but a lazy scavenger. Relying on something else to kill their food for them. Then I politely point out the road kill on the side of the road.

CHOW DOWN - VULTURE

;)

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~Ann

Every day spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Oct.1

02-08-2001, 03:13 PM

jbaugher,
Now that I understand that the guy is from Inda I'll jump in.
You won't change him. This is his ancestry.
Being a vegetarian is part of his heratage.
It would be like you being asked to give up your religious beliefs.
Just understand that he will listen to your hunting stories and be glad that this type of thing makes you happy. He dosen't mine that you are what you are.
Show him the same respect.
You will find that when you establish a friendship that you can even ask him if vegetarians eat animal crackers.
Make a friend, learn about his heratage and ancestry, you may find some interesting things to learn.
Diveristy isn't all bad provided that our American way of life stays AMERICAN.

Coldwater Charters

02-08-2001, 05:20 PM

RealDcoy, I get a little excitable sometimes, You sound genuine with your thoughts. Most of these cases are a need to be there and watch there reactions to your comments. I don't even like to deal with people that won't listen to views especially on hunting issues. I came from the old school and I would be affraid I'd come to blows with some of these people. So for me it is better to walk away or change the subject. I am not real good at argueing anyway just ask my wife I never win. No my wife on the other hand would be a good debate person.LOL

Liv4Huntin'

02-08-2001, 07:43 PM

Does that include hunting as in 'hunting for morels' in the Spring? Or hunting for just the right ear of corn to pick for dinner?

Have you (he) ever heard a carrot scream as you rip it out of the ground .... THEY'RE alive.... Sorry... I couldn't resist.

Some believe the trees, rocks, all things are our brothers. The answer is respect and balance. I know of no group who knows and respects wildlife more than hunters.

Your 'cubemate' would not be here -- none of us would -- if hunting had not been a way of life somewhere far back in HIS ancestry.

It's a tough call . Best of luck in your working environment.... perhaps in time the gentle approach as spoken by others above will suffice to indicate to this gentleman that the barbarism he equates with hunting is only in his mind. Perhaps he could watch PBS and see African Lions bring down their prey.....

Such is nature. ~ m ~

jbaugher

02-09-2001, 08:42 AM

I wanted to Thank everyone for the great comments. I am glad a lot of you reminded me that it is my work environment and I would not want to make that place worse than it already is. Finally, I want to thank all of you for reminding me that his views part of his heritage just like hunting is defianetly part of mine. It defiantely made me open my mind more! I guess I was in shock that he stated hunting was so barbaric and that must have instantly closed my mind.

Thanks Again. jbaugher

02-09-2001, 01:09 PM

Well the first thing I ask people that dislike hunters is do you eat meat? If the answer is yes, then I ask do you know how it is slaughtered, then proceed to tell them the story of which they don't like to hear. Shooting game is more humane than being slaughtered if anyone has been to a slaughter house they know what I mean.

bulletslinger

02-09-2001, 04:08 PM

On my way home from deer camp last year we stopped to get a bite to eat and use the rest room at a wendys.While i was in the bathroom a young boy came in he was about 6.
He ask if i were a deer hunter,i said yes boy thats all it took, he just went off on me
and would not let up saying how hunters were bad they kill deer and so on.So what do you say to a 6 year old that his parents have brain washed.

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Mark

02-09-2001, 07:20 PM

BulletSlinger: you tell him to watch the sporting shows instead of DISNEY !!

jbaugher : your more then welcome and hope you can keep your work place civil. Some times it is HARD to bit your tongue. Maybe some day i will learn the secret of it LOL

gare

[This message has been edited by sportsmaster (edited 02-09-2001).]

stevebrandle

02-09-2001, 10:12 PM

bulletslinger,

There is nothing you should have said to a six year old kid; can you remember what was told to you back then? I would have said "OK" and gone about my business.

I would never try to convert a vegitarian. Period.

Steve B.

Dangler

02-10-2001, 05:48 PM

One thing I do with antis is ask them if they enjoy watching wildlife. They always say yes. I say so do I, and hunting allows me to do it more often and up close.

Then ask them how much money they donate to preserve wildlife. If they're a big donor, you lose your edge, but if you can tell them you donate hundreds of dollars a year through the 11% Pittman-Robertson tax, which helps ALL wildlife through habitat preservation and restoration, you may convince them that you're actually more of an animal lover than they are. So what if you harvest a couple deer, you may have saved the life of a cow in the process by reducing beef demand.

Try to avoid the emotional issue of killing and blood, and you can possibly make them think. Agreed, some minds can't be changed.