Model 700- CBS News- Safety Failure

[RealDcoy]

I just saw the 2nd report on CBS about the supposed problem with the Rem. Model 700.

Did anyone see the first part of the report?

I guess I don't understand one of the statements they focused on. That statement, I guess, was mad by Remington saying that it would take a recall of 2 milllion firearms to find 20,000 that could fail. They also said that it was only problems with early production rifles.

I know that my .270 model 700 is older, but I have not checked its productuion year. Does anyone have more info on this subject? Is there any info on what serial #s could be affected?

I have all of my guns completely stripped every two years. ( Mainly because of a A-5 sweet 16 that I would not DARE take apart on my own.) I also like to have them do a general safety check. I had my 700 trigger worked on last year, and they told me up front they would have to look at it first, check all tolerences, then talk to me about what they could do. I guess I will send in an inquiry to Remington also.

I want to be safe and not sorry.

[icewolf]

I have a Rem-700 (BDL) AN they make a model
ADL Do you know witch one they are talking
about.?

[338bar]

Here's a link to the cbs news story which has some links of interest also. I have one in '06 that is at least 25 years old so I am interested to see where this goes.

http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,270170-412,00.shtml

[RealDcoy]

Icewollf,

It would include both as the only action difference to my knowledge is the ADL does not have the removable clip. The ADL just has the drop out floor plate and cartridges must be loaded form the top. I believe the function of the action is the same.

I am trying to find out if the proposed problem is only in the pre-'82 models in which the bolt could not be opened with the safety engaged.

[Shotgun]

RealDecoy, and others interested in Remington Model 700's- Here's a site by Remington that has more complete information and an 800 number for questions. I submit that going to the news networks (aka the hunter's enemy) is not the best place to get accurate information on this matter. It's like going to Rosie for info on firearms. Would ya....?
http://www.remington.com/safety/cbsstatement.htm

[Mr. 16 gauge]

If I am not mistaken, the only differences between the ADL and the BDL models are cosmetics....I think that the BDL had a little better finish, had a black forend on the stock, ect. The ADL model was routinely sold at discount stores, such as Kmart, Wal-mart, ect. They were a little plainer, but the actions were all the same. I sure hope that this doesn't end up being a big "do-nothing" cover-up by Remington; I have been a Remington fan for years now and I would hate to see my faith in this fine company shattered. DOn't you just love the news media--if there ain't no news, we'll make some, whether it is true or not. Saw them at the press conference yesterday for the shooting at the whitehouse--Like wolfs to raw meat! No concern for the guy or his problems; just "what type of gun was it?". Geez, gimme a break!

[RealDcoy]

Mr. 16,

Did you hear some of the questions they asked? Certainly showed they had NO knowledge of guns at all

Examples:

1) Did you find any gun casings?
( What was this guy supposed to answer? Yeah we found a really nice Bob Allen nylon case?")

2) Q- What caliber was the gun?
A- I don't know.

Q-Well, if you had to guess, what was it.
A- I don't know.

Q- Well could someone with a handgun caliber hit someone if they were out in front of the white house?
A- Very unlikely. Almost impossible to insure a hit at that distance. ( Over 500yds I believe.)

Q- What if the gun man was a really good shot?
A- Uhhh... I don;t think so.

I actually felt bad for the guy that had to answer such dumb and leading questions. Also, for the first hour they were reporting that the suspected gunman was a 17 year old kid. The rush to be first just makes the reports less and less accurate.

[icewolf]

Now that Hunting from Trees is Legal
(dont)need a safety problem.I only load it
after im in my stand but s---happens you
might turn an hit a limn or even drop it.
From the Tree.!!!

[Pat Eddinger]

Guy's,
The current issue at hand is safety of the individual and NOT the firearm.
The news media is attacking us again and pushing for firearms to fall under the rule of the product safety comission which would literally end the sales of firearms,as firearms are inherently dangerous.If they were not,they would be useless to hunt with.
All 700's share a common trigger unit.
The 1982 and older rifles had a safety mechanism that required the safety to be in the "Fire" position to open the bolt.
These are the rifles in question,and at the point of the news medias spear.
Let's review a few things.
The woman featured is blaming Remington for the unsafe rifle that went off and killed her boy.Her Lawyer is suing for damages and several other folks are looking to score big cash as well.
It takes 3 things to result in a fatal discharge of any weapon.
1:It has to be charged in the chamber with a live round of ammunition.
2:The weapon must be pointed at the victim.
3:The weapon must discharge through the release of the striker.
So now lets look at what this woman is claiming.
"I turned the safety off to unload the rifle and it went off,killing my boy".
So by her own admission she pointed a loaded rifle at her child and turned off the safety which allowed the rifle to fire.
I ask of anyone,where in this process did the rifle kill the child?
The woman belongs in jail for negligent homicide.
The golden rules were ignored.It's easier to blame an object for the boy's death than it is to admit that his own mother killed him through her ignorance,inattention,and carelessness.So if the rifle is to blame then Remington owes her,obviously.
The 700 trigger.
It is a mechanical thing made in mass production by humans.Humans fail,and the things humans make fail.
This is because we are not perfect.No one is.
Next we have the situation of a rifle that is older,worn, and used,possibly maintained poorly,and very possibly tinkered with for a better trigger by someone that just turned screws not understanding what was going on.
Since Lawyers got involved with firearms,trigger pull weights have gone up,and have gotten longer and scratchier.
Tinkering with pull is a common thing that 700 owners do,as the screws are right there to be turned.
It has been my experience that most hunters are NOT riflemen,and view their rifles as tools to be used in the hunt.
Looking at them as tools means that they get rudimentary attention untill something obviously dosn't work.Then the firearm is dropped off at a 'smith for repair.
Trigger parts can wear,reducing contact of the striker release with the sear.Dust sticks to lubricant accelerating wear,and further reduces overall contact by creating a slightly positive angle in the components relationship.
The safety when released allows the striker pressure to bear directly against the sear,and can be in a sudden manner.
Throw in a worn,dirty,improperly adjusted sear and the striker gets released..BANG!
If you have ANY concern over this issue take your rifle to a 'smith.If you have adjusted your trigger and havn't had several years of doing such things,and understand EXACTLY what you are doing..take it to a 'smith.
If you have used 3-1 oil,WD-40,or other organic oil, to lube your rifle and it's trigger system and you don't wish to take chances,take it to a 'smith.
Mechanical things fail,the people that make them fail.Don't be stupid.If you are concerned have it looked at by a competent 'smith and sleep easier.It's worth every dime.
How many guy's do you folks know that routinely remove their rifles barreled action from the stock,clean,degrease,inspect and adjust if necessary,lube PROPERLY and then reassemble after deer season?
Few,very,very precious few I know do.
Still,as a mechanical thing the rifle MAY fail without apparent cause or reason and discharge.
That's where the golden rules come in.
1:Never cover anything with the muzzle you do NOT wish to destroy.
2:Be sure of your target and what is beyond it before loosing the shot.
3:Treat all firearms as if they are loaded(Unloaded firearms kill and maim daily for some reason)
4:Keep your dadgum finger off of the trigger untill the sights are on target.
I also ask that folks keep their firearms well maintained and KNOW that they are in sound order before using them.
Picking up a firearm literally means that you take control of your life and that of others in your vicinity,you accept the responsibility,and the consequences that come with it.I feel that if a person cannot handle such responsibility and use reasonable thought while doing so,they should leave firearms alone for the sake of others.No one has the right to kill,maim,cripple and destroy the lives of those affected simply because they are too lazy or ignorant to learn and practice the golden rules,and keep their firearms in safe working order.
Lastly I wish to add that anyone who sees the safety on a firearm,as a switch that completely controlls the firing of a weapon is an idiot,in need of serious education before someone gets hurt.If you know someone like this,straighten them out pronto,and I don't care if it is your Uncle bud.If the statement offends you,GOOD!You will think about it next time,simply cuz I ticked you off.
They are just there to keep the trigger from inadvertly being pulled during use in the field.Only the concious thought of the individual handling the firearm can render it "Safe".
For those with worries over there 700,PLEASE take it to a competent 'smith in your area and have it checked out.Remington has listings of authorized 'smiths in Michigan,but I know of only one(I am NOT Remington authorized,as they cut a raw deal and I wont deal with them directly as a 'smith)
"Johnsons sporting goods" In Adrian.
Their 'smith is Steve Durren,and is a good friend,and I will vouch for his excellent work and ethics.
The media has overblown the issue of a few manufacturers defects into a pseudo epidemic designed to pressure the gunmaker.
Have your rifle checked for confidence,take care of it properly,follow the golden rules,and go about happily living your life with those around you being safe.
Pat Eddinger

I think the adl has a little plainner stock and does not have the latch to open the magazine unfer the rifle.

Pat: the way i thought i read it she pused the saftey off. The gun fired and went through her home then the bullet went through a horse trailer then it hit her son.
Now i have a question for you. The other day i bought a used Remington 700 BDL in the .17 cal . When i got done removing the shells from the magazine and chamber i closed the bolt. Then i pushed the saftey off. When i pused the saftey off it went CLICK . This in a newer version of the rifle as to you can open the bolt with the saftey on. Can i contact remington on this . I have tried to get it to fire like it did before but it will not do it. This has me a WORRIED . The trigger on it has to be set to around 1 to 2 pounds . I am a fannatic about keeping my barrell ALWAYS pointed in the safe direction . I respect your opinions on her eand would like a bit of advice as to what i should do.


Thanks in advance


gare

[Recurve]

Pat, Thank you for bringing some common sense to an emotional topic and reminding us all of the #1 most important firearm rule, control your muzzle!

I caught the tail-end of this newscast and don't know all the details of how this woman's son was shot. Obviously it was a tragic "accident", and I put accident in quotations because it was preventable. If the muzzle of her firearm had been pointed towards the ground or the floor, chances are it would have discharged harmlessly.

I am reposting Pat's rules here because they bear repeating over and over. If you own a firearm make them your mantra!

Originally posted by Pat Eddinger:
Still,as a mechanical thing the rifle MAY fail without apparent cause or reason and discharge.
That's where the golden rules come in.
1:Never cover anything with the muzzle you do NOT wish to destroy.
2:Be sure of your target and what is beyond it before loosing the shot.
3:Treat all firearms as if they are loaded(Unloaded firearms kill and maim daily for some reason)
4:Keep your dadgum finger off of the trigger untill the sights are on target.
I also ask that folks keep their firearms well maintained and KNOW that they are in sound order before using them.
Picking up a firearm literally means that you take control of your life and that of others in your vicinity,you accept the responsibility,and the consequences that come with it.I feel that if a person cannot handle such responsibility and use reasonable thought while doing so,they should leave firearms alone for the sake of others.No one has the right to kill,maim,cripple and destroy the lives of those affected simply because they are too lazy or ignorant to learn and practice the golden rules,and keep their firearms in safe working order.
Lastly I wish to add that anyone who sees the safety on a firearm,as a switch that completely controlls the firing of a weapon is an idiot,in need of serious education before someone gets hurt.If you know someone like this,straighten them out pronto,and I don't care if it is your Uncle bud.If the statement offends you,GOOD!You will think about it next time,simply cuz I ticked you off.

[Recurve]

One more thought.

When I saw this news story the first thing that occured to me and probably to most responsible gun owners was, "Why wasn't the muzzle pointed in a safe direction before the safety was taken off and the attempt made to unload the weapon?"

CBS news lost an opportunity to perform a public service when reporting the story by simply pointing out the importance of controlling the muzzle of a firearm. They could have done so without making a stand, pro or con, regarding firearms.

Think about the way that firearms are handled and portrayed in Hollywood movies and TV shows. I wonder how many "accidents" have been caused indirectly by the irresponsible gun play and handling routinely showcased in Hollywood? Unfortunately, for some gun owners this might be the only "training" they receive. Scary thought!



[This message has been edited by Recurve (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Pat Eddinger]

Sportsmaster,
I realize your point as to the direction that the woman pointed the rifle.
Golden rule#1 covers that.
As to your rifle,get it to a Remington authorized 'smith or one that you trust with your life.The sear and striker release may well be worn and a simple adjustment may just allow for a false sense of security.
2lbs is well below safe adjustment on the factory 700 trigger.Below 3lbs is unsafe unless it has been done by a 'smith with experience and the proper tools and jigs.
Sear engagement is the primary issue here, and sears wear,and are subject to all sorts of issues from supporting components.
To get a pull as you describe the sear spring must be backed off,and engagement reduced.It is UNSAFE!!!!!!!!!
Do NOT load this rifle and shoot it untill it has been checked out and corrected.Someone has tinkered with things and I would NOT trust it period.
I have seen several sites on the net that describe 700 trigger adjustment and not a single one covers checking geometry for proper engagement with reduced contact.
If you desire lighter pulls consider an aftermarket trigger from Timney,Rifle Basix,or Jewel and have a good 'smith install it for you.My personal 700's have either 3lb pulls or have aftermarket triggers,as I will not willingly pull the Dragons tail blindly.It's a game of odds and I hate gambling with death.
How far are you from Adrian?
Johnsons in Adrian takes care of most of the Rem.Factory repairs here in Michigan.
If you send the rifle to Remington it will take you quite a while to get it back.
If you need further info drop me a line on E-mail and I will do what I can.
Good luck and get that 700 taken care of!
Pat