EAS and Winter survival.

[Whitetail1]

Can some one please tell me...What is the real reason for the EAS. As a wildlife manager, I see no benefit. I spend the year working the ground and shaping my hunting property to benefit the animals at all times of the year. We all know that March is the toughest time for a whitetail in regards to survival as they try to outlast the hunger and rebuild their bodies from the stress that winter and hunters put on them. Why would we willingly add these extra weeks of stress on these animals with the EAS. It really is no different than delaying the "green-up" in spring by a few weeks.
I constantly hear the preaching of food plots, establishing cover and safety zones for deer which will help them through the tough months and this is true. But why would one go through all of that trouble and then participate in this hunt which in effect works directly against what you were working for in the first place.
For those of you that say this season adds no additional pressure...Thats BS... Don't tell me a deer doesn't know the difference between being in the woods when a gun fires and actually being SHOT AT!
What is it that this EAS provides that couldn't be done in the already too liberal hunting season prior to it's establishment?
Would anyone support moving the Youth hunt to the first week of October and lessen the hunting pressure even more? This comes from a man that lives to bow hunt. I am willing to give a little.
I mean no disrespect to those of you that participated...I simply do not see the benefit.

[pescadero]

Can some one please tell me...What is the real reason for the EAS. As a wildlife manager, I see no benefit. I spend the year working the ground and shaping my hunting property to benefit the animals at all times of the year. We all know that March is the toughest time for a whitetail in regards to survival as they try to outlast the hunger and rebuild their bodies from the stress that winter and hunters put on them. Why would we willingly add these extra weeks of stress on these animals with the EAS. It really is no different than delaying the "green-up" in spring by a few weeks.
I constantly hear the preaching of food plots, establishing cover and safety zones for deer which will help them through the tough months and this is true. But why would one go through all of that trouble and then participate in this hunt which in effect works directly against what you were working for in the first place.
For those of you that say this season adds no additional pressure...Thats BS... Don't tell me a deer doesn't know the difference between being in the woods when a gun fires and actually being SHOT AT!
What is it that this EAS provides that couldn't be done in the already too liberal hunting season prior to it's establishment?
Would anyone support moving the Youth hunt to the first week of October and lessen the hunting pressure even more? This comes from a man that lives to bow hunt. I am willing to give a little.
I mean no disrespect to those of you that participated...I simply do not see the benefit.

The benefit is reduced population in overpopulated areas. Nothing else, other than the benefits that come from having a population in balance with the environment.

What does it provide that couldn't be done in the "already too liberal hunting seasons" prior to it's establishment? More does killed.

If the already existing seasons were really "too liberal" then the deer herd wouldn't be massively overpopulated in the southern third of the state.

[QDMAMAN]

For those of you that say this season adds no additional pressure...Thats BS... Don't tell me...


I mean no disrespect to those of you that participated....



Your message is loud and clear W1...and has been for over a year.
The reason for the season is that "wildlife managers" haven't done a good enough job in the other seasons reducing deer numbers, to reasonable levels, and until they do, expect more of the EAS.
What a wonderful tool BTW, for those of us that take overpopulation, and maintaining proper populations, seriously.
FWIW, I've found that excess does that get harvested in the EAS don't have a problem with winter survival and the ones that don't get harvested...have that much of an easier winter.

Big T

[Whitetail1]

The benefit is reduced population in overpopulated areas. Nothing else, other than the benefits that come from having a population in balance with the environment.

What does it provide that couldn't be done in the "already too liberal hunting seasons" prior to it's establishment? More does killed.

If the already existing seasons were really "too liberal" then the deer herd wouldn't be massively overpopulated in the southern third of the state.
Please explain to me how by adding this season there will be more does killed. There are only so many hunters out there that are willing and ready to kill does. There is already ample time. If "Wildlife managers are doing all of the doe killing, why couldn't we continue to do so in December?
Again no disrespect. I'm just up for a good friendly debate.

[pescadero]

Please explain to me how by adding this season there will be more does killed.

Simple.

During the regular season I have access to no private property, and can only get one doe tag.

Last weekend I shot two does, on a friends farm.

That is two deer, in an overpopulated DMU, that I would never have shot without the EAS.

Last year they took 30 deer off the farm and the neighboring farm, and needed to take many more - but there wasn't time or hunters available to do it.

It's also significantly EASIER to harvest does in the EAS than regular season. I only took two, but if I were inclined, had the tags, and the freezer space - it could have been ten.

There are only so many hunters out there that are willing and ready to kill does. There is already ample time.

Not for me there isn't. If it weren't for the EAS, I'd kill 2 less deer this year.



If "Wildlife managers are doing all of the doe killing, why couldn't we continue to do so in December?

Difficulty and time.

Difficulty is mostly related to weather, and time is mostly related to holidays.


Again no disrespect. I'm just up for a good friendly debate.

Positives of EAS from a population standpoint - it reduces population more (even if you believe it's a minor amount more, it's hard to argue it doesn't at least slightly increase antlerless harvests)

Negatives of EAS from a population standpoint - none.

The EAS can't HURT from a population standpoint, it can only help or be neutral... and based on statistics, it helps - if only a little.

[skipper34]

Because it is ANTLERLESS ONLY. On October 1, ALL deer become legal, and that is where the problem lies. Michigan deer hunters would rather shoot a buck than a doe, it's that simple. Until that mindset changes, and let's be honest, that isn't about to change any time in my lifetime, the EAS as well as the LAS will continue to be necessary to thin the overpopulated DMU's. We can preach about OBR, MARS, earn-a-buck, ad nauseum, but until hunters are limited to what they can harvest, this problem will persist for eternity. In my opinion, if the state of Michigan was serious about overpopulation problems, which they are NOT, there would be a limited amount of available buck tags in zone 3. Hunters would be forced into antlerless harvest, if they indeed wanted to hunt deer. Then and only then would the herd benefit, including ALL DEER, antlerless and bucks. The bucks would survive for the most part, and the antlerless deer would be thinned to obtain a more balanced and healthy herd. This would only need to be implemented for 1 or 2 years, then the real fruits of the effort would be seen by all. Just think, the whiners who bash Michigan as a quality deer hunting state would perhaps even change their tune.

[Whitetail1]

Simple.

During the regular season I have access to no private property, and can only get one doe tag.

Last weekend I shot two does, on a friends farm.

That is two deer, in an overpopulated DMU, that I would never have shot without the EAS.

Last year they took 30 deer off the farm and the neighboring farm, and needed to take many more - but there wasn't time or hunters available to do it.

It's also significantly EASIER to harvest does in the EAS than regular season. I only took two, but if I were inclined, had the tags, and the freezer space - it could have been ten.



Not for me there isn't. If it weren't for the EAS, I'd kill 2 less deer this year.





Difficulty and time.

Difficulty is mostly related to weather, and time is mostly related to holidays.




Positives of EAS from a population standpoint - it reduces population more (even if you believe it's a minor amount more, it's hard to argue it doesn't at least slightly increase antlerless harvests)

Negatives of EAS from a population standpoint - none.

The EAS can't HURT from a population standpoint, it can only help or be neutral... and based on statistics, it helps - if only a little.
Looks as though you have taken advantage of the EAS to gain hunting permission on new hunting ground. Good for you. Congrats on the 2 does. Maybe in time you will gain their trust and obtain permission to hunt during the entire season. You must admit , your circumstance is a rare one. Would you still be able to take those deer later in the season if you had to?

[swoosh]

EAS gives an excuse to MI bowhunter on why they failed again to shoot a big buck:lol:

"The EAS pushed him off my property";)

[Tracker83]

Can some one please tell me...What is the real reason for the EAS.Decreased population = increased available forage = increased winter survival for remaining population

As a wildlife manager, I see no benefit. I spend the year working the ground and shaping my hunting property to benefit the animals at all times of the year. We all know that March is the toughest time for a whitetail in regards to survival as they try to outlast the hunger and rebuild their bodies from the stress that winter and hunters put on them. Why would we willingly add these extra weeks of stress on these animals with the EAS. It really is no different than delaying the "green-up" in spring by a few weeks.
That's a pretty far stretch to equate 5 days of increased pressure in September with increased winter mortality in March.

For those of you that say this season adds no additional pressure...Thats BS... Don't tell me a deer doesn't know the difference between being in the woods when a gun fires and actually being SHOT AT!Do you really think that a deer can tell the difference between a hunter in the woods shooting at a squirrel and a hunter in the same woods shooting at another deer? That's BS...

As an aside, the deer I am SHOOTING AT don't know the difference because by nightfall they are riding in the back of my truck.

What is it that this EAS provides that couldn't be done in the already too liberal hunting season prior to it's establishment?As has already been stated does are easy to kill in September and easy to distinguish from fawns in September. They are harder to kill later in the season and more difficult to distinguish from fawns.

already too liberal hunting season Too liberal? By who's definition? Michigan's deer herd certainly doesn't appear to be suffering by liberal seasons. If anything, Michigan's deer herd is suffering from overpopulation due to seasons and bag limits that are too conservative.

Would anyone support moving the Youth hunt to the first week of October and lessen the hunting pressure even more?No.

[pescadero]

Looks as though you have taken advantage of the EAS to gain hunting permission on new hunting ground. Good for you. Congrats on the 2 does. Maybe in time you will gain their trust and obtain permission to hunt during the entire season.

It isn't trust - it's hunter numbers.

Their entire extended family hunts the farm during the regular season, and there is no room for more hunters - in fact, they probably have too many already.

Maybe in 30 years if half the family dies off and still have the property I'd have an opportunity, but not anytime soon.

You must admit , your circumstance is a rare one.

Not really. I've heard from several people that would be glad to let someone on their property to take does during the EAS, but not hunt the regular season.

Would you still be able to take those deer later in the season if you had to?

Not likely. I can't hunt there regular season, and I don't bowhunt or muzzleloader hunt. Which leaves the late firearm season - which basically runs right over the Christmas season.

Dec. 21-Jan 1 is possibly one of the busiest parts of the year for me, and I certainly won't impose on others holiday revelry - which is exactly what asking to stay at their place during the late antlerless season would be.

[Whitetail1]

Decreased population = increased available forage = increased winter survival for remaining population
If no more deer than normal are removed...What's the differance?

That's a pretty far stretch to equate 5 days of increased pressure in September with increased winter mortality in March.

Do you really think that a deer can tell the difference between a hunter in the woods shooting at a squirrel and a hunter in the same woods shooting at another deer? That's BS...
Could you tell if I shot AT you or simply in your yard?

As an aside, the deer I am SHOOTING AT don't know the difference because by nightfall they are riding in the back of my truck.

As has already been stated does are easy to kill in September and easy to distinguish from fawns in September. They are harder to kill later in the season and more difficult to distinguish from fawns.
For some people I'm sure this is true.

Too liberal? By who's definition? Michigan's deer herd certainly doesn't appear to be suffering by liberal seasons. If anything, Michigan's deer herd is suffering from overpopulation due to seasons and bag limits that are too conservative.
Exactly how much time do you need to fill your tags?

No.
How far will you go to justify this hunt?:dizzy:

[swampbuck]

Because E.A.S. is about reducing deer density, "Deer management" is about growing antlers to MANY who practice it, which does nothing for over population. In a natural habitat nature would take care of the population problem. Due to inflated carrying capacity and antler envy the DNR has to find ways to reduce an intentionally(in many cases) bloated population.

[pescadero]

Exactly how much time do you need to fill your tags?

...as much as it takes to kill enough deer to fix the population issues.

If the EAS and LAS aren't enough, they should extend them. If that isn't enough, they should add more antlerless seasons, go to EAB, or go to a lottery for buck tags.

Here are the top 10 problems with the deer herd in southern Michigan:

1. Overpopulation
2. Overpopulation
3. Overpopulation
4. Overpopulation
5. Overpopulation
6. Overpopulation
7. Overpopulation
8. Overpopulation
9. Overpopulation
10. Overpopulation

[Tracker83]

In a natural habitat nature would take care of the population problem.swampbuck's vision of the ideal Michigan deer herd: Disease, starvation, increased predation... you know, "natures way".

Due to inflated carrying capacity and antler envy the DNR has to find ways to reduce an intentionally(in many cases) bloated population.The DNR is the guilty party in creating an intentionally bloated population via decades of traditional deer management. The "deer managers" that you loathe have been the single lonesome voice calling for reduced deer population. The rest of the hunting community continues to complain that Michigan still doesn't have enough deer to suite their recreational desires.

You know, it's kinda funny. A few years back the drum beat against QDM was that the practitioners were out to decimate the deer herd via excessive antlerless harvest. Now, the same group of haters are trying to blame overpopulation on QDM while ignoring the protectionism of does via traditional deer management:lol::lol: Y'all need to hold a conference and get your stories straight;)

[William H Bonney]

The EAS and LAS do literally nothing in terms of population control. The doe that someone takes now,, is just one less they'll take during the regular season. And before all you "deer stewards" chime in with "your" story of 50 does that your crew takes off your farm,, remember, you represent a VERY small percentage.

The problem with the over population in the southern zone is "where" the deer are.. Metroparks, state parks, golf courses, cemetary's, townships with no hunting, etc.. , there's very limited over-populated area's that an average joe can just go out and whack a doe whenever he wants.

[fairfax1]

I'm of the opinion that all this hand-wringing about "over-pressured" deer ...due to EAS, Youth, LAS, Mzzldr, too long a bow season, too many seasons, too many hunters, ...yadda, yadda, yadda ............is, no disrespect, just plain silly.

Deer as a species has been around for a couple million years. Being bumped out of one woodlot and into another for the morning....is, in the grand scheme of things, probably not too truamatizing.

Who hasn't seeen deer startled-up and run because: a car stopped on the road; a tractor entered a field; a dog scrambled along a ditch; an ultra-light flew overhead; a bicyclist pedalled the trail; a canoe came 'round the bend; a woodcutter approached the woods; a coyote trotted the edge.......and horrors, a guy with a bow walked quickly to a tree stand. Talk about pressure packed lives.

Give me a break!

Too many posters on these forums seem to think that deer are paranoid basket-cases beginning the very moment they check their calendars and find out a hunting season has opened.

Either these hand-wringers need to dig up their Xanex and Prozac......or their local deer do.

Chill.

[Luv2hunteup]

EAS provides many beneficial things to the deer herd where it's needed.

Deer need food; by taking a doe out of the herd prior to when most plants go dormant it leaves more food for the remaining herd. Deer consume around a ton of food every year. Less stress during times of need.

Less deer means less overcrowding which can also mean less stress on the remaining deer herd.

EAS kills does prior to the rut; the bucks out there do not have to try to breed as many does during the first cycle let alone the 2nd or 3rd cycle. A more timely rut means less stress.

These 3 things reduce stress on the deer herd way more than the pressure put on during the few days of EAS. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

[Tracker83]

How far will you go to justify this hunt?:dizzy:How far will you go to justify your opposition of this hunt.:dizzy: Remember, YOU are the one who tried to make the outlandish connection between 5 days of additional pressure and increased winter mortality.:lol:

If you were really concerned about decreasing winter mortality you would support EAS for the entire month of September and LAS for the entire month of January. But let's be honest, that's not actually your real concern with this hunt...

[swampbuck]

swampbuck's vision of the ideal Michigan deer herd: Disease, starvation, increased predation... you know, "natures way".

The DNR is the guilty party in creating an intentionally bloated population via decades of traditional deer management. The "deer managers" that you loathe have been the single lonesome voice calling for reduced deer population. The rest of the hunting community continues to complain that Michigan still doesn't have enough deer to suite their recreational desires.

You know, it's kinda funny. A few years back the drum beat against QDM was that the practitioners were out to decimate the deer herd via excessive antlerless harvest. Now, the same group of haters are trying to blame overpopulation on QDM while ignoring the protectionism of does via traditional deer management:lol::lol: Y'all need to hold a conference and get your stories straight;)

First natures way may not be pretty but its effective, Its not needed if the hunter does his part. This already happens in 2/3 of the state.

Second ......its not the DNR's fault...they issue enough permits every year to wipe out the herd, Its the fault of hunters in over density areas who dont do their part. And regulations will not fix that.

Finally ........Nowhere did I refer to QDM.

[Firefighter]

I'm of the opinion that all this hand-wringing about "over-pressured" deer ...due to EAS, Youth, LAS, Mzzldr, too long a bow season, too many seasons, too many hunters, ...yadda, yadda, yadda ............is, no disrespect, just plain silly.

Deer as a species has been around for a couple million years. Being bumped out of one woodlot and into another for the morning....is, in the grand scheme of things, probably not too truamatizing.

Who hasn't seeen deer startled-up and run because: a car stopped on the road; a tractor entered a field; a dog scrambled along a ditch; an ultra-light flew overhead; a bicyclist pedalled the trail; a canoe came 'round the bend; a woodcutter approached the woods; a coyote trotted the edge.......and horrors, a guy with a bow walked quickly to a tree stand. Talk about pressure packed lives.

Give me a break!

Too many posters on these forums seem to think that deer are paranoid basket-cases beginning the very moment they check their calendars and find out a hunting season has opened.

Either these hand-wringers need to dig up their Xanex and Prozac......or their local deer do.

Chill.


Fairfax! We agree:)

[skipper34]

And regulations will not fix that.
[/quote]

I beg to differ. The RIGHT regulations would fix this in only a fraction of the time it would take to change any hunter's mind. And by now, we all know what the RIGHT regulations are.

[November Sunrise]

All I know is that where I was hunting Friday morning in Calhoun County (couple miles north of Albion) it sounded like WWIII. You talk about hunting pressure man - I stopped counting shots at 50 and that was well before 8:15am. I'm glad that I don't normally hunt in that area, because the deer around there are going to be nocturnal there from this point forward. Also, dirty shame to hear about that brute that was poached in the next section over from where I was hunting. Mainframe 10 with a drop on the left side - heard that he grossed over 160 and change.

[swoosh]

Because E.A.S. is about reducing deer density, "Deer management" is about growing antlers to MANY who practice it, which does nothing for over population. In a natural habitat nature would take care of the population problem. Due to inflated carrying capacity and antler envy the DNR has to find ways to reduce an intentionally(in many cases) bloated population.

Can you have a post with ripping on QDM:lol: You're the A typical MI gun hunter, I will leave it at that;)

[farmlegend]

Looks as though you have taken advantage of the EAS to gain hunting permission on new hunting ground. Good for you. Congrats on the 2 does. Maybe in time you will gain their trust and obtain permission to hunt during the entire season. You must admit , your circumstance is a rare one.

Just because you imagine it is rare does not mean it is. Got a footnote to share with us?

I invite guys out to hunt Rancho Farmlegend during the EAS that are not welcome to hunt there at any other time.

One of the many beautiful things about the EAS is the fact that those does are MUCH easier to kill than they are any time later on. Especially compared to December.
As one who has been targeting does aggressively since the last century, I learned long ago the foolhardiness of putting my doe harvest eggs in the December basket. Get a December blizzard, and my farm is simply inaccessible.

BTW, I was out at my place Sunday afternoon spreading fertilizer. While hanging out doing chores at my barn near dusk, I was amazed, and gladdened, at the Verdun-like volume of shooting I heard. Lotsa lead being flung, lotsa good management going on.

[Tom Morang]

fairfax---excellent post. Ditto Farmlegend

Pescadaro's experience is a perfect example of why we needed a doe only season. Many landowners and farmers in some of the areas that I hunt resist letting deer hunters on their property. For many years they have let others deer hunt on their lands in order to help control deer numbers. In the past these hunters chose to only kill bucks and let the does walk and not addressing the overpopulation problem . By there actions they admit the only reason they wanted access was to kill bucks and not really help the landowner in their quest to control populations.

This season gives credibility to those hunters that take the time to contact landowners and gain permission to hunt on their properties for the sole purpose of taking does. And as in Pescadoro's case and I am sure in many others---their actions speak louder than words. Thank you!

I would have to surmise that this season has opened up many parcels of land not previously open to deer hunting and has resulted in a considerable number of antlerless deer killed that would not otherwise. In my opinion mainly due to this Early Antlerless Only Season.

[hunting fool]

if overpopulation is such a problem why is this only private land, open it to public land to and this will get a lot more hunters in the woods on these does i know i would be one of them not owning any land in southern mi

[skipper34]

if overpopulation is such a problem why is this only private land, open it to public land to and this will get a lot more hunters in the woods on these does i know i would be one of them not owning any land in southern mi

Because by and large the overpopulation problem is on private land in zone 3.

[November Sunrise]

Because by and large the overpopulation problem is on private land in zone 3.

It's admittedly just one small area, but there aren't going to be any overpopulation issues in that township north of Albion where I was hunting on Friday. In addition to hearing a ton of shots, when I was leaving I saw a group of 11 guys gathered around a bunch of trucks so I stopped to see what they were up to. Turns out they were going to be doing deer drives all day long. As a group they already had killed 9 antlerless deer (7 does and 2 buttons) by Friday morning, which is quite a lot considering that the season had just opened the day before. Several of them said that a couple local farmers had gotten together and put together a bounty system for every deer that was taken during the first two days. I guess the bounty was a pretty hefty amount because it seemed like a lot of guys in that area had taken Friday off work just to see how many they could get.

[calhoun]

It's admittedly just one small area, but there aren't going to be any overpopulation issues in that township north of Albion where I was hunting on Friday. In addition to hearing a ton of shots, when I was leaving I saw a group of 11 guys gathered around a bunch of trucks so I stopped to see what they were up to. Turns out they were going to be doing deer drives all day long. As a group they already had killed 9 antlerless deer (7 does and 2 buttons) by Friday morning, which is quite a lot considering that the season had just opened the day before. Several of them said that a couple local farmers had gotten together and put together a bounty system for every deer that was taken during the first two days. I guess the bounty was a pretty hefty amount because it seemed like a lot of guys in that area had taken Friday off work just to see how many they could get.
November, i hope this is where you lease land, if not might as well put the farm sale:)

[November Sunrise]

November, i hope this is where you lease land, if not might as well put the farm sale:)

No, where I own and lease is in a different township. This all took place in the area just a couple miles north of Albion. Friend of my dad's owns a little piece there and wanted me to come out, but all that I could think of when I left that morning was that I'm just glad that I don't call that hunting area home. Can't imagine what it would be like to deal with that type of hunting pressure, in September of all things. Crazy, absolutely crazy.

[Whitetail1]

No, where I own and lease is in a different township. This all took place in the area just a couple miles north of Albion. Friend of my dad's owns a little piece there and wanted me to come out, but all that I could think of when I left that morning was that I'm just glad that I don't call that hunting area home. Can't imagine what it would be like to deal with that type of hunting pressure, in September of all things. Crazy, absolutely crazy.
Sorry...I'm not biting!:lol:

[Whitetail1]

The only group that performs deer drives during the EAS is in Southern Michigan is in North- Western Jackson County. Sorry... No fish today.

[deepwoods]

EAS provides many beneficial things to the deer herd where it's needed.

Deer need food; by taking a doe out of the herd prior to when most plants go dormant it leaves more food for the remaining herd. Deer consume around a ton of food every year. Less stress during times of need.

Less deer means less overcrowding which can also mean less stress on the remaining deer herd.

EAS kills does prior to the rut; the bucks out there do not have to try to breed as many does during the first cycle let alone the 2nd or 3rd cycle. A more timely rut means less stress.

These 3 things reduce stress on the deer herd way more than the pressure put on during the few days of EAS. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

I agree entirely. Another bonus is that by taking does out of the herd prior to the rut I would think that rutting activity would increase, even if only slightly, due to the added competition caused by fewer does. At least that is my hope.

For me personally it is nice to know that I have venison in the freezer. My friend who's farm I hunt is pleased because some deer are killed. It is a win win for our situation. I only wish I could of taken another one but I'll be out with my kids this weekend for hopefully more of the same.

[Whitetail1]

How far will you go to justify your opposition of this hunt.:dizzy: Remember, YOU are the one who tried to make the outlandish connection between 5 days of additional pressure and increased winter mortality.:lol:

If you were really concerned about decreasing winter mortality you would support EAS for the entire month of September and LAS for the entire month of January. But let's be honest, that's not actually your real concern with this hunt...
Well I guess I need to be reminded...What exactly IS my real concern?

[QDMAMAN]

Well I guess I need to be reminded...What exactly IS my real concern?


Well OK!

This hunt will “drive away the deer that you have worked so hard all year to keep on your property”, former president of the Calhoun County Branch of the QDMA

Big T

[November Sunrise]

Sorry...I'm not biting!:lol:

:lol: - cmon Andy...admit it...just for a second or two I had your attention, now didn't I?

Let me ask you this. I know without a doubt that you have an intense commitment to improving the deer herd in your/our area. You're serious about deer management, and have demonstrated your commitment with actions, such as the amount of time that you volunteered with the local branch a few years ago. And you have knowledge of deer management. Now, considering all that, isn't it at least possible that you're overestimating the negatives of this early antlerless hunt? I mean, isn't that at least possible? Are you really seeing a devastating impact on your early archery season hunting? Do you genuinely believe that there is any evidence that what a deer experiences for a few days in September is related to their winter survival?

For what it's worth, our personal experience is that we're hunting about 4-6 miles from your place. We're hearing 4-8 shots each sit during the early season, and last year we simply didn't see any impact on the following weekend youth hunt or the early archery season hunting, and I expect that to continue. For what it's worth, it just seems to me that you've developed a much stronger reaction to this early season than is merited. That's my two cents - take it for what it's worth :p.

[QDMAMAN]

An interesting article in Quality Whitetails this month, by a prominent QDM co op organizer in the Marshall area, stated that the Marshall area had way to many antlerless deer.
What's your take on this W1?

Big T

[Whitetail1]

Well OK!



Big T
That's ALMOST word for word from something I wrote last year .NOT QUITE. What do they call that???Paraphrasing?
Point being...If you had limited hunting space...do you think this extra added pressure in September would impact the deer?

[QDMAMAN]

That's ALMOST word for word from something I wrote last year .NOT QUITE. What do they call that???Paraphrasing?
Point being...If you had limited hunting space...do you think this extra added pressure in September would impact the deer?



Maybe you'd be so kind as to post up what it was that YOU wrote...for clarification.;)
FWIW, I have 19 acres and an 11 acre lease. Both saw EAS hunting "pressure" last weekend.:)
Will you be answering my question from post #37?

Big T

[Whitetail1]

:lol: - cmon Andy...admit it...just for a second or two I had your attention, now didn't I?

Let me ask you this. I know without a doubt that you have an intense commitment to improving the deer herd in your/our area. You're serious about deer management, and have demonstrated your commitment with actions, such as the amount of time that you volunteered with the local branch a few years ago. And you have knowledge of deer management. Now, considering all that, isn't it at least possible that you're overestimating the negatives of this early antlerless hunt? I mean, isn't that at least possible? Are you really seeing a devastating impact on your early archery season hunting? Do you genuinely believe that there is any evidence that what a deer experiences for a few days in September is related to their winter survival?
I'll give you that... I was reading intently for a moment. I (in my own heart) truly do not see an overall benefit to the EAS. I will not ridicule someone for participating as there certainly are instances where it is useful. I just don't think it outweighs the negative impact.

For what it's worth, our personal experience is that we're hunting about 4-6 miles from your place. We're hearing 4-8 shots each sit during the early season, and last year we simply didn't see any impact on the following weekend youth hunt or the early archery season hunting, and I expect that to continue. For what it's worth, it just seems to me that you've developed a much stronger reaction to this early season than is merited. That's my two cents - take it for what it's worth :p.
My problem is that not everyone has large acreage to participate as this should be done in areas that you would not intend to hunt for early season bucks. What is the little man to do when the neighbors participate and blow everything out of the woods for weeks. Imagine what Oct 1st would be like if you had little acreage to hunt and this hunt had taken place next door. I am OK. I do not participate. My hunting is NOT effected. But many others are. My reactions are no different than before. You just haven't heard much negative response to the daily praising of this hunt on this forum. I, much like you gentlemen, simply write here to start conversation and debates over issues that are dear to our hearts. (wildlife and the great outdoors). I will not criticize your hunting techniques. I just do not see things the same.
Regards and good hunting.

[November Sunrise]

My problem is that not everyone has large acreage to participate as this should be done in areas that you would not intend to hunt for early season bucks. What is the little man to do when the neighbors participate and blow everything out of the woods for weeks. Imagine what Oct 1st would be like if you had little acreage to hunt and this hunt had taken place next door. I am OK. I do not participate. My hunting is NOT effected. But many others are. My reactions are no different than before. You just haven't heard much negative response to the daily praising of this hunt on this forum. I, much like you gentlemen, simply write here to start conversation and debates over issues that are dear to our hearts. (wildlife and the great outdoors). I will not criticize your hunting techniques. I just do not see things the same.
Regards and good hunting.

Fair enough. Hope your season is a great one Andy :).

[Whitetail1]

An interesting article in Quality Whitetails this month, by a prominent QDM co op organizer in the Marshall area, stated that the Marshall area had way to many antlerless deer.
What's your take on this W1?

Big T
ABSOLUTELY...We have way too many does here just like many other counties.
Tell me this... How many more does do YOU kill because of the EAS and the opportunity it presents?
I'm sure because you are an active proponent of the EAS that you make darn sure you take more than usual.
How many more do you think the average Joe takes?
I sure read a lot of stories here of men that say the EAS lets them simply take their does early so they can concentrate on antlered deer throughout the regular season. If this is true...How many more does do these hunters take?

[Whitetail1]

Fair enough. Hope your season is a great one Andy :).
Thanks N.S.
Keep your safety harness on and hunt with pride.
Andy

[calhoun]

An interesting article in Quality Whitetails this month, by a prominent QDM co op organizer in the Marshall area, stated that the Marshall area had way to many antlerless deer.
What's your take on this W1?

Big T
Might as well chime in now. When we first started are co-op we definitely had to many deer. With actual harvest numbers from the co-op we were able to target enough does to reduce the population in are area. We still have people who have a hard time killing does(mindset), so we simply shoot more does to make up the difference. We have been able to accomplish this without a Sept doe season. Two of the biggest problem with over populated DMU's is the hunters themselves and access to private land. (I can't kill a doe)Its a mindset that is slowly changing, but may take many more years to see real results. Southern Michigan is mostly private land and its broken up into so many parcels. Some of them there is no hunting at all, this makes it very hard to reduce numbers in some areas. We can make more seasons make them longer and we are still going to have population problems in the SLP. If they really want to fix the population problem open the hole SLP to the public, problem fixed in one year no problem;)

[QDMAMAN]

ABSOLUTELY...We have way too many does here just like many other counties.
Tell me this... How many more does do YOU kill because of the EAS and the opportunity it presents?
I'm sure because you are an active proponent of the EAS that you make darn sure you take more than usual.
How many more do you think the average Joe takes?
I sure read a lot of stories here of men that say the EAS lets them simply take their does early so they can concentrate on antlered deer throughout the regular season. If this is true...How many more does do these hunters take?


I think I'm one of the exceptions Andy. I tag out every year and then some (antlerless) so asking me isn't a fair representation of the average deer hunter.
I think that the "average joe" that participates will, by default, shoot more because they don't have the option of sooting a buck during the EAS, just does.
I think the numbers will tell the story in the near future. One year isn't a good N but I think we still killed about 16,000 more antlerless deer last year in it's innaugeral year and that's with it starting with short notice (less than a year).
I mentioned earlier the size of my hunting parcels (relatively small) and I still see plenty of deer after the EAS and, my success on mature bucks on those parcels is well documented as well as multiple doe kills later in the season.

Big T

[QDMAMAN]

Might as well chime in now. When we first started are co-op we definitely had to many deer. With actual harvest numbers from the co-op we were able to target enough does to reduce the population in are area. We still have people who have a hard time killing does(mindset), so we simply shoot more does to make up the difference. We have been able to accomplish this without a Sept doe season. Two of the biggest problem with over populated DMU's is the hunters themselves and access to private land. (I can't kill a doe)Its a mindset that is slowly changing, but may take many more years to see real results. Southern Michigan is mostly private land and its broken up into so many parcels. Some of them there is no hunting at all, this makes it very hard to reduce numbers in some areas. We can make more seasons make them longer and we are still going to have population problems in the SLP. If they really want to fix the population problem open the hole SLP to the public, problem fixed in one year no problem;)



Nice article Kyle! Congrats!

[QDMAMAN]

If they really want to fix the population problem open the hole SLP to the public, problem fixed in one year no problem;)


Are you prepared for the hoards?:)

[pescadero]

I'll give you that... I was reading intently for a moment. I (in my own heart) truly do not see an overall benefit to the EAS. I will not ridicule someone for participating as there certainly are instances where it is useful. I just don't think it outweighs the negative impact.


What is the negative impact on the deer herd?

Not the impact on hunters, or hunter success rates, or any individual property - but the negative impact on the herd as a whole.

[Whitetail1]

What is the negative impact on the deer herd?

Not the impact on hunters, or hunter success rates, or any individual property - but the negative impact on the herd as a whole.
THE ADDED STRESS.
We all know stress is a large factor in deer mortality. If you believe this is null,then how many extra days of hunting do you think the deer can absorb before the stress takes effect?
Then delay that amount of days in spring when "green up " is to arrive and tell me the extra days are irrelevant!
Eventually we are adding additional days of stress to the herd for the given season.
Good luck Thursday and be safe.

[pescadero]

THE ADDED STRESS.
We all know stress is a large factor in deer mortality. If you believe this is null,then how many extra days of hunting do you think the deer can absorb before the stress takes effect?
Then delay that amount of days in spring when "green up " is to arrive and tell me the extra days are irrelevant!
Eventually we are adding additional days of stress to the herd for the given season.


Which causes more herd stress?

1) 5 days of hunting in september
2) Massive overpopulation

[Bob S]

We all know stress is a large factor in deer mortality. If you believe this is null,then how many extra days of hunting do you think the deer can absorb before the stress takes effect?
Before man eliminated the deer's natural predators, deer were hunted 365 days a year. As a prey species, deer have evolved to survive pressure from predators.

[bucksnbows]

The EAS will result in more anterless kills. It did last year and hopefully will this year.
As for the stress it puts on the deer....................human intrusion is human intrusion and whether its scouting, stand hanging, small game hunting, wood cutting or doe killing its all the same to the deer. The only difference is the EAS results in more does being killed and in the SLP that is a good thing.
Like Farmledgend stated putting all your eggs in the December basket may not turn out the way you intend it to.
For the average joe hunter who participates in the EAS and kills a doe, he did his part. If they don't kill another doe the rest of the year they at least took one because that was all they were allowed to shoot(no bucks).

[Whitetail1]

Which causes more herd stress?

1) 5 days of hunting in september
2) Massive overpopulation
Look... I am on the same page as you guys. WE HAVE TOO MANY DOES (OR DEER IN GENERAL ) IN THE SLP.
We obviously need some help in regards to thinning the herd. I am ALL for killing a TON of does but until we educate our fellow hunters on the benefits it will never be done. For the most part, this season meerly gives those of us who already kill does on a regular basis another oppertunity to hunt.
I would be shocked if this EAS increased the overall doe kill by any more than 1/2 of 1% than where we were before it became law. We will never know because we have no real numbers to work with in regards to the kill. No accurate record keeping.
Keep shooting and educating like you do and maybe someday all of Michigans hunters will reap the benefits.

[Jim Zellinger]

I did not take part in the EAS last year and was not able to tag number of anterless deer that I usually shoot in muzzle loader season. The property next to ours had a large standing corn field and caused the deer to move about a half mile, and bed on that property. They do not allow others to hunt and they do not take enough anterless deer. Because of this I not have a definite brouse line in my woods. I did not really need to cut my alfalfa and clover fields, they kept them eaten down very well. I planted about 4 acres of corn this year, to try and prevent the same issue, and have none of it that has made it. They completly destroyed it! This year our grou[ shot 9 in the EAS and I will enjoy chasing the few bucks that meet our requirements until muzzle loading season. Then we will see if more need to be taken. I would rather not have the EAS, but can definatly see why it is needed. Yes when I look at my camera pictures and see the results of my management efforts, I hunt those bucks for a while, and I think that a many hunters do the same. If we as bow hunters would have taken more anterless deer, we would not have needed the EAS, but we did not, and I am glad that we have this tool

[M1Garand]

My problem is that not everyone has large acreage to participate as this should be done in areas that you would not intend to hunt for early season bucks. What is the little man to do when the neighbors participate and blow everything out of the woods for weeks. Imagine what Oct 1st would be like if you had little acreage to hunt and this hunt had taken place next door. I am OK. I do not participate. My hunting is NOT effected. But many others are.

This comes across as the problem you have with it is the effect or potential effect it has on your or others' BUCK hunting.

[Whitetail1]

This comes across as the problem you have with it is the effect or potential effect it has on your or others' BUCK hunting.
My freezer is full every season yet I have not brought home any antlers in 5 years. Yes I am a very selective buck hunter but I also shoot the he#* out of the does.

[farmlegend]

I would be shocked if this EAS increased the overall doe kill by any more than 1/2 of 1% than where we were before it became law. We will never know because we have no real numbers to work with in regards to the kill. No accurate record keeping.

So, simultaneously, we are to believe that hardly any deer are killed during the EAS, yet having the EAS puts tremendous pressure on the deer herd, to the great detriment of this prey species. I guess we are to believe, therefore, that the success rate in the EAS must be extremely low, with legions of hunters out there, stomping around the woods and terrifying all of the bucks, yet killing hardly any deer..:yikes:

In point of fact, we do have real numbers to substantiate the EAS harvest. See the 2008 Deer Harvest Survey Report. BTW, I expect the 2009 report to show an EAS kill bigger than last year's.

[Whitetail1]

So, simultaneously, we are to believe that hardly any deer are killed during the EAS, yet having the EAS puts tremendous pressure on the deer herd, to the great detriment of this prey species. I guess we are to believe, therefore, that the success rate in the EAS must be extremely low, with legions of hunters out there, stomping around the woods and terrifying all of the bucks, yet killing hardly any deer..

Sure there are deer shot in the EAS. They are the same deer that would have been shot in the regular season. Nothing more. They just died earlier.

In point of fact, we do have real numbers to substantiate the EAS harvest. See the 2008 Deer Harvest Survey Report. BTW, I expect the 2009 report to show an antlerless kill bigger than last year's.

"GUESSTIMATES / REAL NUMBERS" Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.:dizzy:

[farmlegend]

"GUESSTIMATES / REAL NUMBERS" Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.:dizzy:

Doesn't matter what you choose to call the results of statistical sampling and analysis. Reality is what reality is.

Sounds like you're now down to claiming the Deer Harvest Survey Report is a work of fiction. I guess that's all the EAS detractors have left to cling onto.

[Whitetail1]

Doesn't matter what you choose to call the results of statistical sampling and analysis. Reality is what reality is.
" Reality is what reality is" .Is this a quote from Forest Gump?

Sounds like you're now down to claiming the Deer Harvest Survey Report is a work of fiction. I guess that's all the EAS detractors have left to cling onto.
(copy - paste) Sounds like you're now down to claiming the Deer Harvest Survey Report is a work of fiction.
ABSOLUTELY....
If you only "SAMPLE" some of the hunters, You only get a sampling of accurate data.
If your bank gave you a "Sampling" of your checking activity,would all of the money that they didn't report still be available?
Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!

[farmlegend]

Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!

Perhaps you should make that your new signature line.;)

[gunfun13]

Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[greatnortherndave]

How much of Michigan's population problem would be solved by issuing a single buck tag, all seasons, all weapons? It's how they do it in Ohio, and those guys a) routinely pass on little bucks because they know there are bigger bucks around; and b) gladly shoot a doe for the freezer until that big buck shows. With a two-buck rule, lots of guys shoot the first buck they see knowing they can still go for the big boy, and then they get lazy about shooting does because there's already meat in the freezer. Just my opinion.

As for EAS, another argument for it is that fewer button bucks are shot accidentally because that early in the season they're still visibly smaller than the adult does.

[QDMAMAN]

How much of Michigan's population problem would be solved by issuing a single buck tag, all seasons, all weapons? It's how they do it in Ohio, and those guys a) routinely pass on little bucks because they know there are bigger bucks around; and b) gladly shoot a doe for the freezer until that big buck shows. With a two-buck rule, lots of guys shoot the first buck they see knowing they can still go for the big boy, and then they get lazy about shooting does because there's already meat in the freezer. Just my opinion.

As for EAS, another argument for it is that fewer button bucks are shot accidentally because that early in the season they're still visibly smaller than the adult does.


GN Dave,
Welcome to the site!
Do a search on OBR. We've been beatin that drum for a while now.
You're right, BTW, it would go a long way toward solving our ills.

Big T

[fairfax1]

"Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!"

Shux, I hate it when I get new information that makes all my old beliefs obsolete.

For years I've thought that the blood sample I gave my Doc had some accuracy that would be relevant to my health.

Damn! What am I gonna do now?

Please don't tell me the food samples I get at Costco aren't relevant either.

We ain't gonna go anywhere near urine samples.....are we?

[bucksnbows]

"Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!"

Shux, I hate it when I get new information that makes all my old beliefs obsolete.

For years I've thought that the blood sample I gave my Doc had some accuracy that would be relevant to my health.

Damn! What am I gonna do now?

Please don't tell me the food samples I get at Costco aren't relevant either.

We ain't gonna go anywhere near urine samples.....are we?


This is why we love ya fairfax.

[Whit1]

We ain't gonna go anywhere near urine samples.....are we?


What the heck go for it...............:yikes: :lol:

[Whitetail1]

"Sampling has no statistical or relevant value in regards to accuracy!"

Shux, I hate it when I get new information that makes all my old beliefs obsolete.

For years I've thought that the blood sample I gave my Doc had some accuracy that would be relevant to my health.

Damn! What am I gonna do now?

Please don't tell me the food samples I get at Costco aren't relevant either.

We ain't gonna go anywhere near urine samples.....are we?
A little out of context but true none the less. I do appreciate the sarcasm. However...It sure is funny how far members will go to try to justify their leaders bad decisions! :SHOCKED:

[QDMAMAN]

A little out of context but true none the less. I do appreciate the sarcasm. However...It sure is funny how far members will go to try to justify their leaders bad decisions! :SHOCKED:



:lol::lol::lol: