Half-Rack bucks in a management area

[HingeCut]

In your QDM Co-op management area, what is your groups regulations on half rack bucks? If any?

Our co-ops regulations are ear wide or larger & that buck is a "shooter"....so if a buck is a half rack, that is obviously not ear wide...

But i know of another co-op who cull these bucks, which i think is ludacris....I dont think any co-op in Michigan has the genetics or hunter knowledge to cull animals...

What are your thoughts?

[Pinefarm]

If you get any mature buck into bow range, I say try to pull back. If with a firearm, play it by ear.

[mathews_583]

If the half that is there is "wider than the ears" than it would be okay to take the buck wouldnt it? It may have only half a rack, but it still has both backstraps.:D

[Ferg]

'Culling' in free ranging whitetail herd has nothing to do with genitics or anything else - it's a term some use as an excuse to harvest these animials - there is NO way to cull genitics in a free ranging herd - none.

ferg....

You simply can't shoot that many animials -

[tommy-n]

I'm not so sure half rack bucks has anything to do with genetics, they are usually broke off during the velvet. Deer with no brow tines is another whole story and has everything to do with genetics.

[HUBBHUNTER]

My personal choice, and I dont push this on anyone else... If I am not going to mount the buck I dont shoot it. Period.

I really dont see myself ever mounting a half rack so therefore if I pass on a half rack that would be a "shooter" with both antlers, then maybe next year it will have both antlers and will be even bigger.

I will only shoot one buck per season, if I'm lucky, and also shoot at least two does.

[fairfax1]

I'll vote with the Irishman above. If it is not mountable then why shoot it....... when we are buried in does.

(btw....I don't do 'mounts'. No matter how big. Who's gonna dust that sucker?)

[bucksnbows]

My personal choice, and I dont push this on anyone else... If I am not going to mount the buck I dont shoot it. Period.

I really dont see myself ever mounting a half rack so therefore if I pass on a half rack that would be a "shooter" with both antlers, then maybe next year it will have both antlers and will be even bigger.

I will only shoot one buck per season, if I'm lucky, and also shoot at least two does.
:yeahthat:

[bioactive]

'Culling' in free ranging whitetail herd has nothing to do with genitics or anything else - it's a term some use as an excuse to harvest these animials - there is NO way to cull genitics in a free ranging herd - none.

ferg....

You simply can't shoot that many animials -

:yeahthat:

[Michihunter]

My son enjoyed the heck out of his:D:D:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v462/Michihunter/Deer%20Season%202008/DSCN0800.jpg

[lmholmes11]

I dont think I would shoot a deer with just one side. I guess it is just a personal preference thing.

[QDMAMAN]

My criteria is 3.5 or older regardless of antlers. Now, I reserve the right to take the 3.5 yo (or older) buck of my choice so I may pass and hope he's complete the next year as a 4.5 or older, or let a neighbor take him if they have the opportunity.

BTW, What Ferg said is spot on!

Big T

[QDMAMAN]

... play it by ear.


:lol::lol::lol:

[HingeCut]

i agree....if you participate in a quality deer co-op then you shouldnt shoot a half rack, but some fellow members disagree and i dont understand thier logic....this fall i want to present that no half racks be shot regardless if its a mature buck or not.....like one said above, next year it will most likely have both sides....

ALSO, i must have mis typed if i said that half racks are genitics related....i obviously know thats not true!.....

Although at a 100 yards running through a field, you may not realize a deer is a half rack especially if its a mature buck.....and when you have a gun in your hand and a split second to react, well, it may not always be good if hes only got one side!:sad:

[Michihunter]

Curious what kind of "management" doesn't allow for the killing of mature bucks that only have one side?

[QDMAMAN]

i agree....if you participate in a quality deer co-op then you shouldnt shoot a half rack, but some fellow members disagree and i dont understand thier logic....this fall i want to present that no half racks be shot regardless if its a mature buck or not.....like one said above, next year it will most likely have both sides....


Is it worth jeopardizing the continuity of your co op for your preceived opinion?
If it's mature then that should be the criteria not antlers. I think you're on a slippery slope if you promote big antlers "first" in a "quality" deer management co op. JMO.

Big T

[CBMLIFEMEMBER]

Is it worth jeopardizing the continuity of your co op for your preceived opinion?
If it's mature then that should be the criteria not antlers. I think you're on a slippery slope if you promote big antlers "first" in a "quality" deer management co op. JMO.

Big T
:yeahthat: Don't start to dictate what a mature buck has to look like or your co-op will be a tough sell. JMO

[qdmaer]

Co-op smo-op:lol:

[Critter]

My goal is 3.5 year old bucks, if he's got a half rack I guess I'll look like an idiot going to the taxi with him casue he's going down. I like big racks but thats not the goal for me, hunting mature deer is.

[QDMAMAN]

My goal is 3.5 year old bucks, if he's got a half rack I guess I'll look like an idiot going to the taxi with him casue he's going down. I like big racks but thats not the goal for me, hunting mature deer is.



If you had more than (1) 3.5 yo buck on your property and you were only going to take one and the other would advance to 4.5, what would you do? This is, of course, a hypothetical question...or is it?;)

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/medium/Co_op_pic_for_QW_mag.jpg (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/Co_op_pic_for_QW_mag.jpg)

Here's a working example. The head mount (second from left) is a 4.5 yo buck (180"+)that was killed in 2004. The shed in the right hand of Joel (kneeling at right) is from the same buck and it scored 79". The other side had been busted off by the time Joel was ready to hunt him so he passed on him in hopes he'd stay around another year. A calculated gamble perhaps, but it worked and is working.
Joel still hunted that season ('03) but pursued other 3.5+ yo bucks and focused on does.
BTW, the buck we thought was responsible for breaking this bucks antler off was shot and killed as a 4.5 or 5.5 yo at 152" in '03.



Big T

[Critter]

If you had more than (1) 3.5 yo buck on your property and you were only going to take one and the other would advance to 4.5, what would you do? This is, of course, a hypothetical question...or is it?;)


In this situation then I might pass in hopes of getting the other but I wold be hard pressed to do it. I don't have that situation...YET!

[HingeCut]

Is it worth jeopardizing the continuity of your co op for your preceived opinion?
If it's mature then that should be the criteria not antlers. I think you're on a slippery slope if you promote big antlers "first" in a "quality" deer management co op. JMO.

Big T


no, its not worth jeopardizing the group.....

....here is a question, if you knew a deer was 5.5 yo but only had a 75" rack, would you shoot it if you knew it was mature?

I just dont know why someone would shoot a mature deer if it only had a half rack. if the co-op had regulations against shooting them, then it would give that mature deer a chance to sport a full rack the following year and show his true potential....

[HingeCut]

:yeahthat: Don't start to dictate what a mature buck has to look like or your co-op will be a tough sell. JMO


Arnt you dictating what a mature buck looks like by setting a minimum ear-wide criteria? We all know of 1.5 yo that can get ear wide....and also some 2.5+ yo that are UNDER ear-wide...

[QDMAMAN]

no, its not worth jeopardizing the group.....

....here is a question, if you knew a deer was 5.5 yo but only had a 75" rack, would you shoot it if you knew it was mature? YES

I just dont know why someone would shoot a mature deer if it only had a half rack. if the co-op had regulations against shooting them, then it would give that mature deer a chance to sport a full rack the following year and show his true potential....


Is your co op a QDM co op or a Trophy co op?
If you have hunters in your co op that can ID buck ages you are WAAAAAAY ahead of the curve.
I would NEVER even suggest not shooting mature 1/2 racks in a co op. The purpose of a QDM co op is to lower overall deer numbers (if neccessary), tighten buck:doe ratios, and create age structure in the buck population. If you concentrate on these 3 thing the rest will work itself out.
You can personally choose to pass on mature 1/2 racks but you jeopardize the continuity of the co op if you start "tweeking" the guidelines to fit your personal biases.
I have had the good fortune to harvest about 8 bucks that were 3.5 or older and only 3 broke the 100" mark, 2 in the 160" range. However I've never seen a 160" 1.5 yo buck anywhere in Michigan, therefore...I always promote AGE not antlers because it's something we can control.
Now think of something very seriously...how many 1/2 racks are likely to be within the boundries of your co op, and is that a battle you want to fight at risk of losing the war?
If someone in my co op shoots a MATURE (2.5 or older) buck, I'll be the first one in line to buy them the beverage of their choice and give them a slap on the back.
Don't loose focus over this issue. JMO.

Big T

[QDMAMAN]

Arnt you dictating what a mature buck looks like by setting a minimum ear-wide criteria? We all know of 1.5 yo that can get ear wide....and also some 2.5+ yo that are UNDER ear-wide...


I know you're not asking me but I'll answer anyways.:D
Ear width is just a "guideline" to put in place to protect the "majority" of 1.5 yo bucks and some 2.5s. There is certainly no crime in harvesting some 1.5 yo bucks out of the herd, afterall, they make up the largest percentage of the antlered population. You just want to protect as large of a % as possible and the sooner in a co op's life the better. Once the buck population starts to get a balanced age structure, passing 1.5 yo bucks becomes a forthought.
Always remember as well, that the youth in a co op will need opportunities to kill bucks if you want to retain them and 1.5 yo bucks are likely candidates to fit the bill. It's all good.;)

Big T

[bucksnbows]

Is your co op a QDM co op or a Trophy co op?
If you have hunters in your co op that can ID buck ages you are WAAAAAAY ahead of the curve.
I would NEVER even suggest not shooting mature 1/2 racks in a co op. The purpose of a QDM co op is to lower overall deer numbers (if neccessary), tighten buck:doe ratios, and create age structure in the buck population. If you concentrate on these 3 thing the rest will work itself out.
You can personally choose to pass on mature 1/2 racks but you jeopardize the continuity of the co op if you start "tweeking" the guidelines to fit your personal biases.
I have had the good fortune to harvest about 8 bucks that were 3.5 or older and only 3 broke the 100" mark, 2 in the 160" range. However I've never seen a 160" 1.5 yo buck anywhere in Michigan, therefore...I always promote AGE not antlers because it's something we can control.
Now think of something very seriously...how many 1/2 racks are likely to be within the boundries of your co op, and is that a battle you want to fight at risk of losing the war?
If someone in my co op shoots a MATURE (2.5 or older) buck, I'll be the first one in line to buy them the beverage of their choice and give them a slap on the back.
Don't loose focus over this issue. JMO.

Big T

I know you're not asking me but I'll answer anyways.:D
Ear width is just a "guideline" to put in place to protect the "majority" of 1.5 yo bucks and some 2.5s. There is certainly no crime in harvesting some 1.5 yo bucks out of the herd, afterall, they make up the largest percentage of the antlered population. You just want to protect as large of a % as possible and the sooner in a co op's life the better. Once the buck population starts to get a balanced age structure, passing 1.5 yo bucks becomes a forthought.
Always remember as well, that the youth in a co op will need opportunities to kill bucks if you want to retain them and 1.5 yo bucks are likely candidates to fit the bill. It's all good.;)

Big T

Reading these two posts make me feel good to be part of QDMA. Very simple yet sound practices, yet so many will disagree.
Keep up the good work Big T.

[HUBBHUNTER]

Co-op smo-op:lol:

I agree, if its brown its down. I may even do a little preseason hunting, just to keep up with our smo-op goals.;)

[ifitsbrownitsdown]

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/medium/Co_op_pic_for_QW_mag.jpg (http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/521/Co_op_pic_for_QW_mag.jpg)





Hey Tony, Do you have this Quality Whitetails article in email form? I'd like to give it a read.........

- Brown

[bucksnbows]

Hey Tony, Do you have this Quality Whitetails article in email form? I'd like to give it a read.........

- Brown

Me too.

[swampbuck]

Here's a working example. The head mount (second from left) is a 4.5 yo buck (180"+)that was killed in 2004. The shed in the right hand of Joel (kneeling at right) is from the same buck and it scored 79". The other side had been busted off by the time Joel was ready to hunt him so he passed on him in hopes he'd stay around another year. A calculated gamble perhaps, but it worked and is working.
Joel still hunted that season ('03) but pursued other 3.5+ yo bucks and focused on does.
BTW, the buck we thought was responsible for breaking this bucks antler off was shot and killed as a 4.5 or 5.5 yo at 152" in '03.


So not only can you tell what free range deer produced what antlers, But you can also tell specifically what buck broke off anothers antlers.......Amazing!

[QDMAMAN]

So not only can you tell what free range deer produced what antlers, But you can also tell specifically what buck broke off anothers antlers.......Amazing!




BTW, the buck we thought was responsible for breaking this bucks antler off....


Swamp,
Why the bias? If you want to quote me at least read what I said before you make a fool of yourself.;)

Big T

[Michihunter]

Swamp,
Why the bias? If you want to quote me at least read what I said before you make a fool of yourself.;)

Big TYou get served a hanging curveball and all you can come up with is that? I'm getting worried about you Tony.:16suspect

[QDMAMAN]

You get served a hanging curveball and all you can come up with is that? I'm getting worried about you Tony.:16suspect



:lol::lol::lol:Sorry Michi! Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age.
Hopefully he pays attention to my new sig line.;)

Big T

[QDMAMAN]

Hey Tony, Do you have this Quality Whitetails article in email form? I'd like to give it a read.........

- Brown



I have the article somewhere but it's not in a file. Maybe I can scan it. If I do I'll post it up.:) With QDMA permission of course!;);)


Big T

[deathfromabove]

swamp we still luv ya.....

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.

I like it tony:D

[swampbuck]

Swamp,
Why the bias? If you want to quote me at least read what I said before you make a fool of yourself.;)

Big T

Not biased, just sceptical and I find it kind of amusing. The reason I am sceptical is that I have seen multiple bucks harvested from the same area that looked like twins. what do you do follow them around 24/7. I could understand if there was a specific identifying caracteristic, but racks can change from year to year. And its a pretty safe bet that that buck clashed with more than 1 other........do you guys name them:lol:

carry on guys, you would miss me if I didnt poke the hornets nest occaisionally;)

[QDMAMAN]

Not biased, just sceptical and I find it kind of amusing. Well then we're both amused.:)


The reason I am sceptical is that I have seen multiple bucks harvested from the same area that looked like twins.
Side by side comparisons right?


what do you do follow them around 24/7.
No. I have to sleep at least 6 hrs a night.;) Several years of video tape of each buck helps a bit as well.


I could understand if there was a specific identifying caracteristic, but racks can change from year to year.
And you have a lot of experience with this?


And its a pretty safe bet that that buck clashed with more than 1 other........
That may well be the case...that's why my comment wasn't definite but it takes a pretty big buck to snap a 40mm antler and we didn't have a surplus that particular year.

do you guys name them:lol:
Yes...we have to to keep track of all of them.;)

carry on guys, you would miss me if I didnt poke the hornets nest occaisionally;)
You keep me coming back Swamper.:D



Honestly Swamper, if you could experience what we are experiencing you would relized the folly in your comments.
The truth is that a bucks antlers from his 2nd rack to his last maintain the same basic characteristics but it's not likely you'll ever experience it with a constantly negative attitude.:)

Carry on Swamp...and if you're ever serious about making a change look me up, I'll be the first one to get you headed in the right direction.;)

Big T

[November Sunrise]

The truth is that a bucks antlers from his 2nd rack to his last maintain the same basic characteristics

Agreed.

On that same topic, a few days ago I came across this video which includes a brief discussion about how many bucks maintain the same basic antler characteristics.

http://*********************/publish/posts/127/summer-antler-growth.html