Poaching, trespassing violator: "my hound dogs got away"

[MI_Woodsman]

I had to confront 4 poachers the other night who were running two hound dogs for coons on my land.

3 left peacefully. The 4th left only by being held by gunpoint.

Law enforcement was called to the scene (by wife) as 4th trespasser started berating me (yelling) while he was on MY land after he was told to get his dog off of my tree (where a coon was treed) and leave the property immediately (the other three started leaving as soon as they were told to.

The last guy suggested his dogs "got loose" and that he can go anywhere he wants without respect to posted lands to retrieve his dogs and that I shouldn't "get mouthy" with him when I told him that is absolutely incorrect - that again: he was trespassing on posted land (both my neighbors where he came through first and mine are posted conspicuously) and he needs to leave immediately. He made an aggressive move toward me that I felt presented a threat to my life and I immediately told him I had a gun trained on him - which I did.

Just what are these people thinking?

The bottom line is there is no season for raccoon in Michigan in May.
There is no season for training dogs in Michigan in May.
There are no residences w/coon hounds within a half a mile of here.
Nobody was "calling" for said dogs.
We (my wife and I) heard the dogs start to bay within a 1/4 mile of here.
How would both dogs "get loose" at the same time?
Why would he have had an electronic collar on the dog that "got loose" if he wasn't hunting it?

None of these guys live in close proximity - they were hauling the dogs in a truck and running them on private lands without regard for private property rights or game laws.

These poachers left before law enforcement arrived (my land is quite rural - and dispatch sent Sheriff -20 minute drive- not the C.O. that lives right up the road).

I learned a few of things from this incident, and I may not be done learning if I get to chat with the local C.O. (I requested a visit from him regarding this), but so far for next time (if this should happen again):

1. I will enlist the help of neighbors to disarm and subdue the poachers until law enforcement arrives so they can be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law (Plan is in the works).

2. I will take a digital camera with me and photograph every one of their faces, dogs and vehicles + vehicles location (this time parked on my neighbor's driveway - he's a absentee downstate landowner) and keep the information in a safe location so I can ensure the prosecution goes full forward.

Landowners: don't be fooled by the "my dog escaped" nonsense. Get to know your neighbors and your neighborhood - which may be a mile or two around if you're as rural as I am. The bottom line is we need to help nail these violators. LEOs can't do much without suspects present. They screw our hunting heritage up for everyone and their actions promote some landowners to use the 3S rule as their primary policy for all dogs.

THINK ABOUT IT!

[Firefighter]

Good for you. Hopefully the violators don't attempt redemption... I imagine they're smarter than that.

I understand mistakes occur, but this definately was not one!!!

Good luck in the future!

[Justin]

The "disarm and subdue" would be a big no-no.

[Thunderhead]

1. I will enlist the help of neighbors to disarm and subdue the poachers until law enforcement arrives so they can be apprehended and prosecuted to the full extent of the law (Plan is in the works).



Unless your ready to die for your land, you might wanna think twice before trying to " disarm and subdue " anybody.

[jackbob42]

Sounds like you ran across a few bad apples , but not all are like that.
And , just so you know , The Michigan State Coonhound Championship is held every year over Memorial weekend. So , there will be alot of hounds in the woods " Legally " this weekend. And , a few of them may get , what we call , " out of pocket ". But , I doubt you'd be treated that way by any of those houndsman.

[griffondog]

I would hope you think about your actions before you get yourself in trouble. Take pictures, get witnesses and lisc plates. Call the cops,call the co's but don't take the law into your own hands. Is killing someone or getting a family member hurt because some moron is breaking the law.

Yes they do have the right to retrieve a dog. Yes they can hunt damage control this time of year. Yes once you tell them to leave your property they have to go. I would let law enforcement handle the rest.

Griff

[Liver and Onions]

....3 left peacefully. The 4th left only by being held by gunpoint.
........

I wonder if this is a legit post. Quite a story for your first day here. You never mention that they have any weapons, but you held one by gunpoint for trespassing ??? Why would that be necessary when you are asking them to leave ? I understand trespassing, but how can you poach without a weapon ?

L & O

[Adam Gibbs]

I wonder if this is a legit post. Quite a story for your first day here. You never mention that they have any weapons, but you held one by gunpoint for trespassing ??? Why would that be necessary when you are asking them to leave ? I understand trespassing, but how can you poach without a weapon ?

L & O
who said the 4th guy had a weapon?

there is too much missing info for anyone to make an accurate reply on what should have been done.

[duxdog]

If you used a gun in a threatening mannor towards him you can be charged with felonious assault.

[19rabbit52]

One of my neighbors "pointed" a shotgun at trespassers. Cost him about $15,00.oo to stay out of prison. Best bet is to let the law handle it.

[sullyxlh]

He made an aggressive move toward me that I felt presented a threat to my life....

If you used a gun in a threatening mannor towards him you can be charged with felonious assault.
The threat was made...........

[Liver and Onions]

who said the 4th guy had a weapon?
.........

No one has. Reread my post. I still wonder if this is a legit post or someone coming on the site to stir up some trouble.

L & O

[Zorba]

I'm sorry to hear about your trespassers..As a business person, I myself over the years have dealt with many trespassers in a differ setting and I can only tell you that the law isn't really on your side. There are too many technicalities that the trespasser can claim. (lost,property not posted properly, misinformed,etc.)

Over the years, the only person that I ever saw arrested for trespassing was a person that still refused to leave in the presence of law enforcement. Law enforcement must be present. They will not take your word for it that you asked them to leave.

The camera idea is good and can help you prosecute repeat offenders and help keep repeat offenders off your land.

I myself would never confront anyone without a gun but, I would never pull out the gun unless I was prepared to use it. Other wise YOU could be the one going off to jail. By you yourself claiming that you pulled a gun on these people you could be charged with brandishing. And that would be easier to prove by the prosicuter than any trespass charge you have described against the trespassers.

Always call law enforcement first. Then take the pics and document everything.

Z

[Michigander1]

Well il tell ya what.If i found someone on my land with an gun i would disarm them bottomline.I would ask them to drop thier weapons and i will return them unloaded once they are off.I would not be an ******* about it but i would have a gun in hand.No need to point a gun at anyone.Just tell them what they are doing wrong.99.9% of the time most folks dont want any problems.Far as coon hunters goes.I would have let them just pass threw.If you ever coon hunted then you would know what im talking about.Them dogs are not cheap at all.And they will run for miles.Been there done it.And i dont want to do it again :lol:,Mich

[Justin]

I'll tell you what, I'd apologize and leave with no problem, but you'd never disarm me, bottomline.

[Michigander1]

I'll tell you what, I'd apologize and leave with no problem, but you'd never disarm me, bottomline. Then you would have a gun pointed at you all the way off friend.And the boys would be waiting for ya as well.To me it can go either way.We never had a problem in our time disarming and given the weapon back for safety reasons.Its our right as landowners to protect land and family.I guess someone in your backyard with a gun would be ok ?Heck il just go out there without a gun and ask them pls to leave ? Lol right.I dont think so,Mich

[Justin]

Which leads us back to post #4.

[Michigander1]

The "disarm and subdue" would be a big no-no. Disarm yes.Subdue no.Talking nice to a certin point is always we went about it.Never a problem yet.Mich

[Justin]

Then you would have a gun pointed at you all the way off friend.And the boys would be waiting for ya as well.To me it can go either way.We never had a problem in our time disarming and given the weapon back for safety reasons.Its our right as landowners to protect land and family.I guess someone in your backyard with a gun would be ok ?Heck il just go out there without a gun and ask them pls to leave ? Lol right.I dont think so,Mich
If they apologized and walked away I would see no reason to try to disarm them. There would be no danger to myself or family. Pointing a gun at someone in this situation is against the law.

[boehr]

:lol::lol::lol: I don't think I'll even comment, this thread reeks of tough guy syndrome and I agree with liver & onions anyway.

[QuakrTrakr]

:lol::lol::lol: I don't think I'll even comment, this thread reeks of tough guy syndrome.

Yup. 2 posts, and no responses. A simple bomb thrower.

[part-timer]

i didnt really read all the replies to this topic but i think that if the dog owner is unarmed and is going on private property to retrieve dogs he is allowed to with or without permission from the land owner, i thought i herd this on the radio the other morning but i myself am not 100% sure. id personally ask reguardless for permission if i was going on someones property to get my dog. as for pointing a gun at someone that is not in noway threating your life then im suprised the cop didnt arrest you or your neighbor or ticket you.

[ESOX]

I'll tell you what, I'd apologize and leave with no problem, but you'd never disarm me, bottomline.

Part-Timer is correct. If you go onto private land to do retrieve your dog, you have no business bringing a gun with you in the first place.

[Thunderhead]

Then you would have a gun pointed at you all the way off friend.And the boys would be waiting for ya as well.To me it can go either way.We never had a problem in our time disarming and given the weapon back for safety reasons.Its our right as landowners to protect land and family.I guess someone in your backyard with a gun would be ok ?Heck il just go out there without a gun and ask them pls to leave ? Lol right.I dont think so,Mich

LOL Hope you like prison life. :lol:

The only thing waiting will be a State Trooper looking to arrest you for felony assault.

[Michigander1]

Part-Timer is correct. If you go onto private land to do retrieve your dog, you have no business bringing a gun with you in the first place. 100% right.Folks i dont play the so called tough guy.But in todays society we play it safe.You never know.I recall a guy shooting a bunch of hunters kicking them off thier land not long ago.If im not mistaken he killed most of them.We dont come out with guns pointed at anyone.That would be dumb.Most real hunters are very cool about what we ask and never have a problem.The ones that have a problem with it are the ones that create thier own problem.Btw this is very rare.We have disarmed some.Most the time we ask them to unload there weapons and no problem.Btw if he lost his Coon dogs/Hounds.Im sure the owner of the land would have heard them howling.Once they are on scent they are on the roll.Like i said before.I would let them pass threw np.And to be honest i would not even get up and go check them out.Dogs howling would tell me the story ;).Mich

[Michigander1]

If they apologized and walked away I would see no reason to try to disarm them. There would be no danger to myself or family. Pointing a gun at someone in this situation is against the law. If they are carrying a gun on my land.I have every right to disarm them.Fact.But they must unload.We would check the guns and ID them.Like i said its all about playing it safe.I really dont want some guy/bozo on my land that i dont know.Like i said before.Its rare to run into a guy that wont comply.I guess to each its own.Just be safe is all is the key :),Mich

[bigcountrysg]

LOL Hope you like prison life. :lol:

The only thing waiting will be a State Trooper looking to arrest you for felony assault.


They do that even when you are legally right to protect yourself.

[bradymsu]

If they are carrying a gun on my land.I have every right to disarm them.

Can you tell me where this legal right exists? I'm not saying your wrong, I just can't find any reference to it in statutory law or case law. I'm hoping you can as it would settle this issue.

My understanding is that you only have a right to draw a firearm on someone if a reasonable person would conclude that there is an immediate threat of death, seriously bodily injury or sexual penetration. Even on your own land, it does not appear that you have a legal right to draw a weapon on someone simply to disarm them if the conditions above don't exist. If you did, it appears you could be charged with felony assault.

As to retrieving dogs on private land, it is not trespassing provided the person is not armed as previous posters have stated. The law is very clear to that. I think the best course of action would be to call law enforcement immediately and try to get a photo if it can be done safely. It doesn't make sense to get into an armed confrontation absent the conditions above.

[Justin]

Thanks, Brady

[MI_Woodsman]

Yup. 2 posts, and no responses. A simple bomb thrower.

Nope - wrong. This is not a "bomb", this is a valid concern and I am actually trying to share info about this - info that may be helpful to this online community (I hope).

As for violator #4 being held by gunpoint, that was his own fault:

1. It was dark and I was using the peripheral light of a weapon light mounted on my pistol to see and allow those trespassers to see me to some extent. I could not see everything. In fact, I would argue that NOBODY COULD (since a man can conceal a weapon very easily).

It was 100% my intention to peacefully remove the trespassers - difficult to do with two dogs baying and jumping all over my tree after a coon - I armed myself before I went out to confront these violators for a very simple reason: as a tool for self defense (since my assumption based on common sense is that they are trespassing on my property and hunting/training dogs out of season).

I am not positive whether anyone had a gun - I have little choice but to assume they do since they are apparently coon hunting. Let's be clear here that a gun is not the only way to present a threat to ones life, either.

At the time, I am only positive that 4 men with flashlights and 2 coon dogs are on my land with no public hunting lands around for several miles and the neighbors land, which they also trespassed on is posted adjacent to a public road. They had no permission from either myself or my neighbor to be on our lands. I have never heard a hound baying on my land nor anywhere near my land and I have lived here for a little short of a decade.

2. When this trespasser was berating (e.g. SCREAMING at me about "his" rights) me on MY property, he made an advance toward me that I felt presented a threat to my safety. Apparently, my wife supported me by making a similar "defense" move by dialing 911.

This guy is bigger than me and making physical advances toward me - It was not until then when I felt threatened for my safety and it was not until then when I had anyone at gunpoint. He did not stop advancing toward me until I made the comment "I have a gun aimed at you now".

I never had the gun on anyone else. I have had formal defensive firearms training and was 100% prepared to use it should he have continued with his threat.

As far as I know, Michigan law requires an individual to ask for permission BEFORE s/he accesses posted private land. Should someone have asked (and I have had people at the door asking me to pursue an injured deer before), sure I would allow them to get their dogs, but since nobody did and instead they just came on there like they owned the place, it is my authority as a landowner to remove them.

Again, it is my opinion that as sportsmen (and I am most certainly a sportsman) we should at all measures possible, report and attempt to prosecute those who violate game laws. This is *exactly* the sort of situation that causes landowners to just shoot the dogs, burn the carcasses and say that they were coming at them with foaming mouths, trying to attack them, etc.

There is no need to trespass. We have over 7 million acres of public lands in this state and plenty of private tracts available for purchase.

It is evident to me these violators are driving around in their trucks, stopping at drainage ditches, letting their dogs out to pick up coon scent without any regard to private property rights.

We have the same sort of problem around here with coyote hunters (the trucks are sometimes seen looking for sign on the roads).

Had I called law enforcement, I would have called the RAP number to get the CO, but I didn't have that opportunity since my wife dialed 911 when she heard this guy yelling at me from the house (they were less than 75 yards away from my home - another violation should they have shot that coon before I stopped them).

As it was, it took 15-20 minutes for the first deputy to get here, and 20-30 minutes for the next. The violators were long gone by then.

I am after the best method to assist law enforcement to catch them and prosecute them to the maximum extent of the law.

I personally think they should be landed in jail, theiir dogs and guns should be confiscated - AND they should be forced to pay me compensation for the disturbance they caused myself, my wife and the two neighboring residences that were also disturbed by it.

[Riva]

This entire scenario would probably not even exist if we had laws on the books that doled out more than a trivial penance for recreational trespass--and enforced. Right now, the laws don't even equate to a mild case of teen acne!

Furthermore, there should NEVER be a circumstance where one is hunting on the lands of another merely because their dogs lead them there. Way too often do we see the proverbial "I'm just retrieving my dog" turn into a "day at the beach" (or, should I say "night" at the beach) for an entire, armed hunting party.

Call a spade a spade..trespass is theft (dogs or no dogs) and should be handled accordingly. We should take the word "recreational' out of the trespass equation. Obviously it wasn't to recreational for this poster, although I do not agree with his handling of this matter with a firearm.

[bradymsu]

Michigan Woodsman, I understand your desire to protect your private property rights. Legally, however, you are not correct. A person may retrieve a hunting dog on private property without the owners permission. And a person may not draw a firearm on anyone unless there is an immediate threat to life, serious bodily injury or forced sexual penetration. This is taught during the legal portion of any NRA firearms safety class necessary to obtain a CPL in Michigan. The recreational trespass law follows:

Sec. 73102.


(1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon the property of another person, other than farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property, to engage in any recreational activity or trapping on that property without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, if either of the following circumstances exists:


(a) The property is fenced or enclosed and is maintained in such a manner as to exclude intruders.


(b) The property is posted in a conspicuous manner against entry. The minimum letter height on the posting signs shall be 1 inch. Each posting sign shall be not less than 50 square inches, and the signs shall be spaced to enable a person to observe not less than 1 sign at any point of entry upon the property.


(2) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person shall not enter or remain upon farm property or a wooded area connected to farm property for any recreational activity or trapping without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent, whether or not the farm property or wooded area connected to farm property is fenced, enclosed, or posted.


(3) On fenced or posted property or farm property, a fisherman wading or floating a navigable public stream may, without written or oral consent, enter upon property within the clearly defined banks of the stream or, without damaging farm products, walk a route as closely proximate to the clearly defined bank as possible when necessary to avoid a natural or artificial hazard or obstruction, including, but not limited to, a dam, deep hole, or a fence or other exercise of ownership by the riparian owner.


(4) A person other than a person possessing a firearm may, unless previously prohibited in writing or orally by the property owner or his or her lessee or agent, enter on foot upon the property of another person for the sole purpose of retrieving a hunting dog. The person shall not remain on the property beyond the reasonable time necessary to retrieve the dog. In an action under section 73109 or 73110, the burden of showing that the property owner or his or her lessee or agent previously prohibited entry under this subsection is on the plaintiff or prosecuting attorney, respectively.


(5) Consent to enter or remain upon the property of another person pursuant to this section may be given orally or in writing. The consent may establish conditions for entering or remaining upon that property. Unless prohibited in the written consent, a written consent may be amended or revoked orally. If the owner or his or her lessee or agent requires all persons entering or remaining upon the property to have written consent, the presence of the person on the property without written consent is prima facie evidence of unlawful entry.

[tjays]

Wow!!!! you are ready to take a human life becouse there is a dog breaking at a coon in a tree. I can understand being upset about people trespassing on your land but to use deadly force and to take the law into your own hands sounds like many years behind bars to me, good luck but I would work the system first.

[bradymsu]

Furthermore, there should NEVER be a circumstance where one is hunting on the lands of another merely because their dogs lead them there. Way too often do we see the proverbial "I'm just retrieving my dog" turn into a "day at the beach" (or, should I say "night" at the beach) for an entire, armed hunting party.

Riva, I think the law handles this quite nicely by not allowing a person to retrieve a dog from private land with a firearm in their possession. I haven't been coon hunting, but I suspect it would be difficult at best to remove a raccoon from a tree without a firearm. In the situation that caused this thread, the property owners admits there was no evidence of any of the dogs' owners having a firearm.

[Zorba]

When I took my cpl class, the instructors never even brought up examples of justification. All they told us was if you ever had to use a firearm in self-defense it would be something that you would remember the rest of your life and plan on being arrested. It will be up to a judge and jury to decide if you are justified or not.

[jnracing]

ok this whole thing has me fired up first off you CAN hunt coon all year round for damage control on private lands, secondly we have the law on our side upon entering property UNARMED to retrieve a dog, thirdly upon pointing this gun even if he punched you you can NOT shoot you have to fight if you shoot an unarmed man i dont care how big he'll own everything you got and youll be in prison for attempted murder or murder. learn the laws first please before posting you state there is no kill season for coon ur wrong and you can kill a raccoon w/o a gun i do all the time i hunt private lands and all you do is climb the tree (not hard) and knock the coon out to the hounds or you chop the tree down but climbing is easier and less costly now most houndsmen are very polite and will ask before entering your property if they can retrieve their honds and if my hound comes on a property im not got permission i will knock on the door no matter how late and ask if i can retrieve my hounds and most people will even allow you to shoot or knock the coon out as their a nuisance animal. go to ukcdogs.com and look at upcoming events in michigan as there are NITE hunts all year round where the coons are hunted but not killed i keep a tracker on my hounds all the time i have 4 collars i charge two and have two on them so if like happened three nights ago they dig out i can track them and i have 2 hounds in one kennel.

[Michigander1]

Riva, I think the law handles this quite nicely by not allowing a person to retrieve a dog from private land with a firearm in their possession. I haven't been coon hunting, but I suspect it would be difficult at best to remove a raccoon from a tree without a firearm. In the situation that caused this thread, the property owners admits there was no evidence of any of the dogs' owners having a firearm. I think it does as well.Never the less the guy did come towards him.Gun or no gun its night time.Wife in house ect...I would have done the same thing.You dont get mouthy on someone elses land.I think we all know that.For any reason.To be honest you would have seen a gun if they were really hunting.They dont use hand guns to hunt coons.22 with a CB round is what most use.Shoot the coon in the foot and watch it come down to the dogs.Its fricking nuts.Mich

[Justin]

I think it does as well.Never the less the guy did come towards him.Gun or no gun its night time.Wife in house ect...I would have done the same thing.You dont get mouthy on someone elses land.I think we all know that.For any reason.To be honest you would have seen a gun if they were really hunting.They dont use hand guns to hunt coons.22 with a CB round is what most use.Shoot the coon in the foot and watch it come down to the dogs.Its fricking nuts.Mich
Are you for real? First off, mouthy is not a reason to pull a gun. Who ever told you "they don't use handguns to hunt coon"? A lot of people do, including myself. Never used a cb either. Anyone that shoots a coon in the foot on purpose is no sportsman.

[Michigander1]

Are you for real? First off, mouthy is not a reason to pull a gun. Who ever told you "they don't use handguns to hunt coon"? A lot of people do, including myself. Never used a cb either. Anyone that shoots a coon in the foot on purpose is no sportsman. Well i stand corrected then.And if thats the case.Then they could have had an side arm when they was on his land.All the more reason to have a gun with you on your land.I been coon hunting afew times.The guys i was with breed there dogs and sell them for alot of money.All i know is what they did.The had 3 pups with them.One keep following me around.Greg told me ahead if he dont follow the pack he wont come out.Later that night i heard a pop and never seen that pup again.They have a Rep to uphold i was told.They wont sell a dog that dont hunt.Anyway it really not for me.If what they did was wrong or right no idea..I was a guest with them,Mich

[Justin]

:dizzy::dizzy::lol:

[jnracing]

i dont know what a cb round is but i know that for training a dog i will and do shoot a coon to wound it so the dog has to fight it its a training aid that trains em to fight a coon not be scared of it if im hunting a finished hound i shoot to kill

[Michigander1]

i dont know what a cb round is but i know that for training a dog i will and do shoot a coon to wound it so the dog has to fight it its a training aid that trains em to fight a coon not be scared of it if im hunting a finished hound i shoot to kill Its very quiet round for a 22.Most pellets guns make more noise,Mich

[jnracing]

ok thanx mich ill have to look into those i use a gamo varmint whisper .177 pelletgun seems to work well on smaller trees wouldnt shoot one over 20 feet with it then its time to start climbing lol

[jackbob42]

i dont know what a cb round is but i know that for training a dog i will and do shoot a coon to wound it so the dog has to fight it its a training aid that trains em to fight a coon not be scared of it if im hunting a finished hound i shoot to kill


How long you been coonhunting JN?
I've been doing it for almost 50 years and have never had to do that to make a coondog. Maybe you should go through some training yourself before you go to training a coonhound.

And , Michigander1 , I ain't never used a CB in my life either. Maybe you should pick your friends a little better because someone isn't telling the truth in your story either !

[Whit1]

Okie dokie!

Hormones have been juiced out. Machismo has been vented. "Rights" have been defended whether or not they are defensible apparently matters not. Murder has been spoken of in blatant disregard of the law (that post has been removed). It's time this thread got shut down.