Point system for elk

[foersterhunter]

Do you think we should have a point system for elk tags

I think its time we do.Would be a fair chancefor everyone then.

[mich buckmaster]

I agree!!

[FixedBlade]

I agree.

[Rico]

That would be to logical! One other option that could have been added should have been a lifetime draw. Meaning you get 1 tag once in you life.

[TSS Caddis]

First you need to find out how many applicants there are every year and how many licenses do they draw.

This is not like some states where you have a 1:10 chance of getting drawn for a tag and with preference points you may be guarenteed to get one withing 3 years or so. I don't know what the odds for Michigan are but if you have a 1:1,000 chance of being drawn a point system probably would not help much.

[Big Game]

I don't think a point system would work as the odds are to great as TSS Caddis pointed out. I drew a cow only tag in 2000 and was told that I should have played the lotto that day because my chances of becoming a millionaire were greater than being drawn. The problem is that there are so many people applying for a small amount of licenses that even preference points wouldn't work. I am in favor of expanding the herd to the whole state. They are in my back yard up here and have to put up with them year round. You can't bait for deer because they come in and clean you out instantly, you can't raise a decent garden because they will move in on that, you can't have a fence around your hay fields as they walk right through it electric or not. One other problem I have is that it is my understanding that the permits are given out on a per capita basis. Meaning that if your county is the most populated your odds are better than someone that lives in a less populated county. Don't get me wrong I am not against the elk. I just don't think it's right that our farmers have to put up with them year round and not get anything in compensation for crop damage or fence repairs.

[Bob S]

The last time this came up someone had the applicant numbers. With a point system you would get drawn something like once every 200 years. Not enough permits to really make it worth while.

[marco]

I am having a guy put some food plots in for me this year and he also does some work with the DNR. Anyways he said that 10 people didn't show up for the hunt this week. That is 10 permits that we may have drawn. If you don't want to hunt, DON"T apply.

[malainse]

TSS is correct...Here area the numbers for the last few years.

------ Apps/permits issued
1996 28,540 / 220
1996 42,367 / 200
1997 34,801 / 355
1998 39,104 / 360
1999 39,725 / 189
2000 48,652 / 410
2001 46,933 / 256

[Eastern Yooper]

Point system is statistically a bad idea.

However..... drawing an elk tag should be a once-in-a-lifetime hunt. Too many people that apply will never draw, yet there are some hunters who have drawn 4 times! I think that is unfair and a bunch of schitt.

[dieseldude]

rico is on the right track, maybe one draw per 20 years or so, that would give everyone a shot........eventually

anyone have the success rates from the previous years?

[Elk Guide]

Hey guys...just thought i would let you know i have tried to get a point system in for three years now.....but i kept geting the same answer ....the number of applicants versus the number of permits would make it
so that it would take you 150 years to draw.... the percentage chance now is .005 to .003 depending on how many permits and how many applicants apply........how ever now that the dnr knows that the herd is way down i think the permits will go way down next year......they will be trying to do a count in january if the weather permits and i intend to be part of the process so as to make sure that the numbers are as accurate as they can be.........hope this helps you guys ...i will let you know how many we find at the end of january...

[slammer00]

One other problem I have is that it is my understanding that the permits are given out on a per capita basis. Meaning that if your county is the most populated your odds are better than someone that lives in a less populated county.

Big Game is right about this.

[jscott27]

Maybe I don't understand how a points system works, but I don't see why it is inferior to the current pure draw system.

The way I understand it, the more points you have, the better your odds of being drawn. How quickly your chances increase depends on how quickly pts are accumulated (and what weighting they have) and how many points other people have. If you fail to apply for a year, you lose your preference pts.

IOW, if I have been applying for the last 10yrs (and not been drawn) then I would have better odds of getting drawn than the person who applied for the first time this year. Either person can be drawn, but the one who has been applying longer has better odds.

Under the current system, the person who has applied for 20yrs has no better chance than the one who applies for the first time this year. A points system is a way of rewarding the person who continually applies for a long period and pays the $4 app fee.

[Big Game]

The reason why it wont wqrk is let's say next year they start the preference points. So now everybody that doesn't get a permit gets one point. Now consider the numbers here. Lets say they only want to harvest 200 elk that year (which is a high # according to these last few years) Now lets say that they have 1000 people with 1 point. In order for them to honor the point system they would have to give out 1000 points that year. I think the reason why it works with bear is they have more than one area and the # of people applying is spread out more. In other words they have 300 people applying for 250 licenses (just an example). That is my guess anyway with the bear permits. I will say this though. In 2000, when I got drawn, I was shocked to see the people at the meeting that said they had been drawn multiple times. There was one guy who claimed he had been drawn three times. Now it was just by a show of hands so he may have not told the truth.

[Bob S]

2001 46,933 / 256

Above is the number of applicants and permits issued for 2001. That would mean that 46,677 hunters would have 1 point. So now those 46,677 hunters apply the next year. Any new applicants would be left out as they would have zero points. There is no way for anyone new to ever enter the process. If the number of applicants and permits stays about the same it would take 180 years to get through the original 46,677 hunters. Too many applicants and too few permits for a point system to work.

[Big Game]

Yeah what Bob S said. I tried to explain it that.

[jscott27]

I don't see why new applicants have to be left out if they don't have points; there is more than one way to set up the system.

Lets say we want to increase the odds of a person who was in the draw the previous year to be 10% greater than the odds of a person who has not been in the draw before. Assign the new person 10 numbers and the previous entrant 11. The previous entrant now has a 10% greater change of being drawn. You can keep giving people who continually enter 1 more number / year, which will increase their odds at a rate of 10% of the base / year. This also creates diminishing returns, so that the person who has been in the drawing for 10yrs only has about a 5% better chance than the person who has been in for 9yrs (but both have about 2x the odds of the new entrant).

Anytime someone is drawn, their points would go back to the starting value, at the very least. Even better would be to freeze them out for a few years or at least put them at a 'negative' points value (start them back at 1 entry vs 10 for a new entrant).

Also, looking at the draw numbers posted previously, the number of entrants very quite a bit from year-year, indicating that the applicants aren't all that steady. The numbers also don't do anything to indicate how many people are new to the draw in a given year. A points system like the one I outlined would reward those who have had to wait longer, but still allow new entrants a chance at drawing.

The current system treats everyone the same whether they have been entering the draw for 10yrs or for 1 which doesn't make sense to me. A resonably laid out points system would reward those who have had to wait longer.

[Elk Guide]

I have tried to get a point system in place for 5 years now and it hasn't happened. I had a simular system that would do what your talking but they won't do it and they won't even look at it....the system they have now is the one they want and i won't go into why......your wasteing your time .....i guide and have talked to the people who run the hunt several times and all i can say is forget it.....