Newbie needs help please.

[beemer]

Hello,

It's seems like the more I read the more confused I get.

I have an open area of about 1/3 of an acre that I would like to plant. It's in the woods but just slightly in from an big opening (my yard). I have a tree stand & always used sugar beets to bring in deer. I did try to plant clover about 6 years ago & used a rototiller, with no luck. I did send away to MSU for a soil test & followed the requirements. I can't find the test results, but it needed lime & they said to use fertilizer.(can't remember what ratio)
I have a compact tractor now (20 hp diesel) 4wd & a few implements. I can clear the opening & want to open up more to make a bigger plant. The original spot is open & has grass, the other ajoining areas are overgrown with small brush, so I plan on clear them out & plow them if needed.

Should I spray weed kill on the open grass area, or should I plow it with the grass? Is it too late to get another soil sample if I want to get some type of crop for fall? I'd like to have something for the hunting season that will last thru December. May I can split the plot. Will the sample be different from the open area to the brush area?

Totally confused.:confused:

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Anderson]

My suggestion. You still have time. Go pull a soil sample and see what you've got. 6 years is a long time to base decisions on. That gives you a good starting point.

Depending on how much fertility the soil has, I would then work the ground and plant RR corn/beans. One or the other or both. This will allow you to spray glyphosate and get the weeds under control during the summer and still offer the deer some food. I expect the deer may wipe out the plot which is ok. I would then come back about Labor day with winter wheat and clover. This will give you fall attaction and a clover plot for next spring. You can use subsequent years to increase fertility and also work on improving the surrounding habitat. This is a quick and easy approach that can give you a foundation for later improvements. Others may have different ideas.


Tim

[Anderson]

I jsut reread my post and should have included. You still want to lime and fertilize this year as well as in the future.

[Huntermax-4]

If at all possible DO NOT PLOW it. This will just put all your good topsoil too deep. I would spray with roundup in middle May, then again in June and July. Then you should be able to disc without any problems. As far as a good fall plot go maybe go with winter wheat, rye grain and maybe some brassicas thrown in.

[tommy-n]

you could always do the buckwheat thing early then rye or winter wheat later on. You still have plenty of time to work on getting your soil fixed then plant some buckwheat.

[beemer]

Thanks for the replys.

Tim, I like the idea of planting the corn/beans now & sraying later, but I still would have to till the soil now, to add lime & fertilizer depending on the soil sample, right?

I will definetly get a soil sample tested. Clear the extra openings & spray May, June, July. I can then plow up the soil & add in what I need from the soil sample, or should I just spray weed kill, & pour the lime & fertilizer on top?

Would it be alright to plant in the fall after 3 months of weed kill? I'm assuming I can plow after july & add in the lime & or fertilizer. Mix it in then plant in Sept. for the fall/winter plot?

[buck37]

Why spray if your just going to plow it and bring up all the dormant weed seeds?

[atp500]

Get a copy of Ed Spinazzola's book "Ultimate Deer Food Plots". It will answer all your questions and give you reference for years to come.

Ken

[beemer]

I can spray the weeds like Huntermax said May, June & July, then plow soil & add whatever additives it needs from the soil sample, mixing it in as I plow, then leaving it in the soil for a august/september plant?

[Anderson]

Beemer, you bring up good questions.

It is not necessary to till the ground this spring. You could spray several times over the course of the summer and plant it this fall. If you till in July you may find it necessary to till again in Sept when you want to plant your fall crop as the soil may have developed a crust.

If you spread any needed lime/fertilizer this spring and till it in, you can reap some or all of the following benefits:

- You incorporate your nutrients into the soil where they can be more beneficial to the roots. You also speed the ph adjustment in the soil as the lime will react across a wider soil profile.

-You bury some of the plant material so that it decomposes quicker and therefore increases organic matter.

- You may get a flush of weeds by tilling which is good since you are planning on spraying them w/glyphosate anyway.

-If you also plant a RR crop, you give the deer summer nutrition and they may frequent your plot more.

In Sept, if you still have a stand of beans/corn left you can broadcast the wheat/clover mix over the top of the corn/beans and you are set.

One of the pleasures in food plotting is the opportunity to experiment as every soil is different. Find something that works for you and then do what farmers do... they change their mind. :lol: Pretty soon you will be thinking about dirt more than you ever thought possible.

Tim

[bioactive]

Thanks for the replys.

Tim, I like the idea of planting the corn/beans now & sraying later, but I still would have to till the soil now, to add lime & fertilizer depending on the soil sample, right?

I will definetly get a soil sample tested. Clear the extra openings & spray May, June, July. I can then plow up the soil & add in what I need from the soil sample, or should I just spray weed kill, & pour the lime & fertilizer on top?

Would it be alright to plant in the fall after 3 months of weed kill? I'm assuming I can plow after july & add in the lime & or fertilizer. Mix it in then plant in Sept. for the fall/winter plot?

You should definitely get Ed Spinazzolla's book. He would certainly tell you not to plow. Also, if you are going to plant this fall, probably do three Round-up sprays during the spring and summer. Anderson's idea is great! It allows you to start growing some food while at the same time weed treating.

[beemer]

I want to thank everyone for your replies & I do plan on getting Ed's book. Is tilling & plowing the same thing? I'm starting to get confused again. Tim, if I till & plant beans & corn,then how can I spray for weeds without killing the beans or corn. Also,my plot is in a very shadey area. Surrounded by tall trees on 3 sides, but does get some sun because the grass & weeds do grow alot in the opening. I have to mow it at least once a month to keep it at bay.

Jim said Ed would not say to plow in the spring, & huntermax said not to plow because I would put the good top soil too deep. Plus buck37 said why spray if I plow & bring up the dormant weeds. I think I would like to start out simple & build on it in years to come. Not sure about what to do now, except get a soil sample.:confused:

[Anderson]

I can understand how you are confused because now I'm getting confused. LOL You mentioned in your OP that you had some implements and the ground was open. Other than a rototiller, what implements do you have? I mentioned planting RR corn/beans. RR means Roundup Ready . Roundup Ready crops have been genetically modified so that you can spray Roundup on them and the weeds will die but not the crop. Roundup (glyphosate) has made food plotting very easy.

Unfortunately, forum discussions sometimes resemble trying to have a conversation across a crowded room at a party. Things get miscommunicated. Keeping it simple, Get a soil test and Ed's book.

Tim

[mike hartges]

Here is a link where you can order Ed's book.
http://members.tripod.com/~mmbqdm/index.html

[thetreestandguy]

Is tilling & plowing the same thing?

What people are saying is not to plow, which would be using something with a moldboard that turns the dirt over on itself and leaves a furrow. Ed S. recommends using a disk instead, which breaks/chops up the trash (weeds, last years crop, etc.) that is on top of the soil as well as exposing bare dirt in the process.

Based solely on the fact that Ed has forgotten more than I'll ever know, I went out on a limb last spring and sold my 2-bottom plow. I had never simply disked without plowing first and was a bit nervous at the prospect. Worked like a champ!

I have now built a small alter to Ed. I'll light incence & bow at his alter this time of year and follow his advice/book to a tee!:chillin: You said that you'll be buying the book, it'll be the best $20 you spend.

[bioactive]

What people are saying is not to plow, which would be using something with a moldboard that turns the dirt over on itself and leaves a furrow. Ed S. recommends using a disk instead, which breaks/chops up the trash (weeds, last years crop, etc.) that is on top of the soil as well as exposing bare dirt in the process.

Based solely on the fact that Ed has forgotten more than I'll ever know, I went out on a limb last spring and sold my 2-bottom plow. I had never simply disked without plowing first and was a bit nervous at the prospect. Worked like a champ!

I have now built a small alter to Ed. I'll light incence & bow at his alter this time of year and follow his advice/book to a tee!:chillin: You said that you'll be buying the book, it'll be the best $20 you spend.

I spent quite a bit of time talking with Ed a couple of weeks ago and I can say he winces even at the mention of a disc:). although he will admit there are times you need to use one:).

[thetreestandguy]

I spent quite a bit of time talking with Ed a couple of weeks ago and I can say he winces even at the mention of a disc:). although he will admit there are times you need to use one:).

Poor guy, this is going to confuse him even more. Did you mean plow bioactive?

[Anderson]

Yea, a guy comes here confused and we give him ideas that just confuse him more. We have all been there. Hang in there Beemer.

[thetreestandguy]

We have all been there.

Been there? Cripes, after reading that deer bedding thread I'm STILL there!:lol::dizzy::lol: That's my next step in the habitat education and implementation.

[beemer]

I called today for info on a soil sample & will get it ASAP. They would like to know what I plan to grow for recommondations, but I'm not sure yet?

My opening is in the woods but not deep in the middle of the woods, just off the yard which is 4 acres, but the woods next to me a big & the guy doesn't hunt or allow hunting either. I plan to expand it to my yard opening, which would only make it about a 1/4 of an acre. That part needs clearing. Just brush & small trees. I have a compact tractor 20hp 4wd. I have a back blade, disk, some type of rake (not sure what they call it) & a implement that has big forks on it that can dig into the ground, but no actual plow.

What is plow bioactive?

How do you get roundup ready seeds? (I had no clue what RR meant).

I think at this point I will buy Ed's book, read it thru & make plans for future. I don't want to miss out on this fall for some type of crop to attract the deer. I will get the soil sample & clear out the rest of the area for now, not disking or tearing up the soil at all. If I keep the weeds out of the area for the summer with round up. I can still grow something for the fall right??

My wife is out of work & is asking how much this all will cost, so it looks like I need to cut cost, unless the RR beans & corn are cheap for my small area, but then again I would have to disk for this right?:confused:

Another problem is I need to build a need tree blind since the winter winds split several big branches on the tree that supported the blind rendering it useless! :dizzy: But that's another problem.

I do appreciate all the advice & help.

Does this sound like a good plan? Like I said, I want to get something in for the fall hunt.

[bioactive]

I spent quite a bit of time talking with Ed a couple of weeks ago and I can say he winces even at the mention of a disc:). although he will admit there are times you need to use one:).

Nope, I meant anything that disturbs the ground:).

[bioactive]

I called today for info on a soil sample & will get it ASAP. They would like to know what I plan to grow for recommondations, but I'm not sure yet?

My opening is in the woods but not deep in the middle of the woods, just off the yard which is 4 acres, but the woods next to me a big & the guy doesn't hunt or allow hunting either. I plan to expand it to my yard opening, which would only make it about a 1/4 of an acre. That part needs clearing. Just brush & small trees. I have a compact tractor 20hp 4wd. I have a back blade, disk, some type of rake (not sure what they call it) & a implement that has big forks on it that can dig into the ground, but no actual plow.

What is plow bioactive?

How do you get roundup ready seeds? (I had no clue what RR meant).

I think at this point I will buy Ed's book, read it thru & make plans for future. I don't want to miss out on this fall for some type of crop to attract the deer. I will get the soil sample & clear out the rest of the area for now, not disking or tearing up the soil at all. If I keep the weeds out of the area for the summer with round up. I can still grow something for the fall right??

My wife is out of work & is asking how much this all will cost, so it looks like I need to cut cost, unless the RR beans & corn are cheap for my small area, but then again I would have to disk for this right?:confused:

Another problem is I need to build a need tree blind since the winter winds split several big branches on the tree that supported the blind rendering it useless! :dizzy: But that's another problem.

I do appreciate all the advice & help.

Does this sound like a good plan? Like I said, I want to get something in for the fall hunt.

beemer;

Roundup ready seeds are expensive compared to others. You might want to consider the alternative of just a simple mix of perennials to start with (clover/chicory) after treating the plot well with Roundup. A tiny food plot can make a huge difference in deer traffic on your property.

Regarding stands, there should be no such thing as one. You would be much better off to hold off on the more expensive seed and instead invest in making some wood ladder stands. Each one should be used infrequently. To give you an idea, check out my stand locations in the photo on this post: There is one key area that has 4 stands within 100 feet of each other that are each designed for different wind/weiather conditions.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282658

[OSXer]

& a implement that has big forks on it that can dig into the ground, but no actual plow.

FYI - sounds like you have a tine or spring harrow.

[Ed Spin04]

Beemer stay with the program. These guys are knowledgeable, listen to them. Bio, I think I remember the conversation about no-till, which I do push, (frost seeding for example). I do have a problem with plowing and this started some time back, (20 years) after I spent a full day with MSU ag experts. Our organic soil content in typical ag fields during presettlement times averaged about 5% organic content, which is ideal. It is now an average of three % or perhaps less. Soil scientists agree this is due primarily from the practice of plowing six inches or more in depth. Those billons of microbes, (bacteria) that break down fertilizer and organic material into more usefull nutrients for the plants root sysytem to absorb live primarily in the top four inches of soil, (less in poor and light soil). Lesson here, do not till more than four inches and the less you till the better it is to build up and retain that precious organic material. Getting back to my adversity to tilling. I really do not have a problem with shallow tilling, disking, rototilling , field cultivating etc. providing it is held to a mimimum and by that I mean continuous over and over tilling to create soil fluff, which some think is desirable. It is not, you are destroying soil structure, (tilth), keep the tillage to a minimum. Do not till when the soil is WET. Do not till when the soil is wet and you are half way there. Bio were we discussing the seeding of a forage and deer bedding blend, which I firmly believe will be the seed of the future for many uses. If so I understand why you think I'm against all tillage for I push hard for mimimum tillage when seeding this blend. Actually my best advice is to spray at least once, (mid September) best twice, (mid May and again in mid September) the previous year. The following spring, (around mid May) do a mimimum tillage, then four -five weeks later do the last spraying in June, then followed with a no-till seeding. The above practice kicks butt,when seeding warm season grasses. That one shallow tillage seems to make a big improvement. Yes, keep that tillage low but it can be the differance for big success in some cases. Sorry, I led you astray bBo.

[beemer]

Ed, I would like to follow your instructions to Bio. I would spray Mid May & mid September, this year. The following spring, (around mid May) do a mimimum tillage, then four -five weeks later do the last spraying in June, then followed with a no-till seeding, with Michigans ultimate blend seed mix. Will it grow good in the woods in a sun/shade area?


Can I still put something in this fall for the hunting season & winter browse, like your Special Brassica seed mix? If so, how would I seed it?

Also, after I get my soil sample when & how do I add the fertilizer & or lime to the soil? If I add it during next years minimum tillage, will I still have good enough soil to plant the Special Brassica seed mix this fall & do I just broadcast it?

I have some other area's I can do later after I read the book.

Thanks
Dennis

[Ed Spin04]

Beemer I'm not being a smart guy, I'm really tryimg to help you with the following. I suggest you read the book three times, then ask your questions. You will most times answer your own questions. Good luck my friend.

[thetreestandguy]

Beemer I'm not being a smart guy, I'm really tryimg to help you with the following. I suggest you read the book three times, then ask your questions. You will most times answer your own questions. Good luck my friend.

Can't tell you how many times I've re-read portions of his book Beemer. It's really easy to feel overwhelmed at this stage, I know, I've been right in your shoes brother!

Another choice I made before I ever got my tractor into a field was to join QDMA. It had absolutely nothing to do with deer management per se. My best friend was a member and I went with him to a "food plot day" in my area. I was a member shortly thereafter since it was clear that the organization and those people on a local level were able to help teach me the ropes of food plots. Actual deer management came much later for me, my primary focus early on was to learn to plant seed into the ground.

Through the relationships I've built with QDMA I was able to help out with a prescribed burn last spring in Eaton County. Because of it I now feel confident doing one on my own property this spring but it all happened because of that first food plot day 5 years ago!

There are people around you that are willing to give advice, you just have to meet them first!

[Bob S]

Get a copy of Ed Spinazzola's book "Ultimate Deer Food Plots". It will answer all your questions and give you reference for years to come.OEDER HERE (https://www.qdma.com/store/details.asp?id=216&catid=&catname=)

[beemer]

Ok, I ordered Ed's book & I picked up a soil sample kit. Not sure why I need to read it 3 times. Is there that much info? Someone said it was an easy read.

I dug 10 soil samples from my small plot, with a 7 inch hand spade filling up the whole 7 inches & mixed it all up real good. The instructions said to dig 3 inches of soil for grass & 7 inches for the rest. They want you to check off what you plan to grow, which I really don't know yet. Plus there is no box for clover or deer plots. With all the different plots here that I have been reading about, I don't know what to check off or write in under the box marked other. Any suggestions?

Thanks