Digging a pond- Backhoe wanted

[suzyandal]

We're thinking of enlarging a small pond on our property this summer.Does anyone know where a Backhoe can be rented in the Branch,Baldwin to Ludington area ??
We have an experienced operator,we just need the machine for a weekend.
Any help would be appreciated.Thanks Al

[wingsfan2]

How big is your pond now and how much bigger you gonna make it? You might need something more than a backhoe. You might need to use an exavator and a bulldozer.Just asking.

[ESOX]

I know of a backhoe and operator that can be had for 35 dollars an hour.

[suzyandal]

The pond is only about 20 feet across and about 2 feet deep, its in a low spot on the property and it always has water. I've been told that it's fed by the water table.I want to make it 3 or 4 times wider and maybe 2 times deeper and that's why I think a backhoe would do the job. I have an operator, and only need to rent the backoe, but if I can only get one with an operator, maybe we can work something out. Thanks

[jimbo]

word of advice if you borrow one, make sure everything is in tip-top shape.
my brother-in-law borrowed an excavator last yr. to dig a pond. one whole drive track ( gears, bushings est.) was rusted together. it ran ok until he noticed a shaft running out the side. we spent a couple weeks making new parts for it.
everything turned out fine for him. but just beware if you borrow an old machine

[bigcountrysg]

More advice make sure you get the proper permits for doing this. Digging a pond requires permits. Even if the low spot is always wet. You will need a permit to dig it out and create a pond.

[phyrelin]

More advice make sure you get the proper permits for doing this. Digging a pond requires permits. Even if the low spot is always wet. You will need a permit to dig it out and create a pond.

I would keep real quiet and have someone come in with a longstick escivator and a dozer. BTW do not dig through your hard pan as you could loose your pond completly.

[Airoh]

The pond is only about 20 feet across and about 2 feet deep, its in a low spot on the property and it always has water. I've been told that it's fed by the water table.I want to make it 3 or 4 times wider and maybe 2 times deeper and that's why I think a backhoe would do the job. I have an operator, and only need to rent the backoe, but if I can only get one with an operator, maybe we can work something out. Thanks

That's alot of earth that you want to move with a backhoe.
If it's low and mucky you may want to wait untill there is some frost in the ground before starting.

NO PERMITS are needed in many areas of Michigan.

[big show]

As previously mentioned, a backhoe would work, but an excavator would be more efficient. With that being said, a google search for "ludington rental" revealed a rental place in Ludington with a "mini-excavator". If your pond dried up in the summer, it might be able to get the job done but it would take quite a bit of time. If it was me, I would rent from Hertz Rental or United Rental in Grand Rapids. They will deliver to the site. Bigger machines = greater efficiency=cheaper in the long run.

[wyldkat49766]

I know of a backhoe and operator that can be had for 35 dollars an hour.


^ is your BEST BET HERE.

[bucko12pt]

If you are not sure what you need, I'd call someone that knows what they are doing to at least take a look at it for you. Either a contractor, or one of the sales reps. from one of the more reputable dealers will give you some advice. They're all hungry right now.

I have been in the highway/heavy construction business for 36 years and sold for Cat for 25 years.

I would'nt even venture to give you a guess as to what the proper machine(s) would be until I saw the site, looked at the soils, disposal area, etc, etc.

Do yourself a favor and call someone that knows what they are doing. I've seen more injuries and fatalities around ponds than any other construction worksite.

They're dangerous!!

Do'nt mean to scare you, but I hope I do.

[bigcountrysg]

I would keep real quiet and have someone come in with a longstick escivator and a dozer. BTW do not dig through your hard pan as you could loose your pond completly.


Posting his plans on here is not keeping quiet. Also your not just messing with state law. Your also messing with Federal Wetland Protection Laws. You can't keep quiet once one of the nieghbors water supply wells goes dry because your pond changed the water table.

There are a lot of reasons for needing these permits. Now sure this person could just start digging as you say. But once caught the big fines could follow. Which could go into the excess of 10,000 dollars. Just something to think about.

[Jekart]

Big Country is right.

I would not move one scoop of dirt without checking with the local soil eroision enforcement agency or DEQ office. Those folks are no fun to mess with.

[PahtridgeHunter]

I would not move one scoop of dirt without checking with the local soil eroision enforcement agency or DEQ office.

Just reposting for effect. :D

[bigcountrysg]

Another thing is if your caught, and the DEQ fines you not only do you have to pay the fine. You also have to pay the DEQ to come in and repair the damage you done.

Another thing a low spot is not always the best place for a pond. Just because it is always wet. You could start digging and find muck or a peat moss pit. Which then your intentions of a pond is completely ruined. You will also ruin the eco system of the peat moss pit you just dug up.


Even if you have an exsisting pond you want to make bigger or dredge out. You need a permit for that as well.

Once a pond has been erected. It now falls under the Federal Wetland Protection laws. So an enviroment impact study needs to be done to make any changes to the exsisting pond.

Trust me you do not want to create this big legal hornets nest. Even if you have a big deep pockets filled with green. Because those pockets maybe become big deep pockets that are empty.

[bucko12pt]

Once a pond has been erected. It now falls under the Federal Wetland Protection laws. So an enviroment impact study needs to be done to make any changes to the exsisting pond.

.

Could you reference the place you found this information? I would like to read up on it.

When I dug my 200' x 90' pond 17' deep 7 years ago, it was a bit of a hassle getting the DEQ to move the process and it took me a year to get a permit, but after that I never saw them or the soil erosion people again.
Soil Erosion came out one time at the start, DEQ never did show up during the entire process, even though I asked them to several times.

Soil Erosion has allowed me since to go back and change the bottom and banks to better suite what I wanted. All with no real hassle or additional permits.

I'm within 200' of another pond and existing stream on neighboring property.

I would be reluctant to start digging without at least talking to Soil Erosion. If you are not close to any other drainages or wetlands, SE might be able to give you a permit without bringing the DEQ in. If you
start digging, most likely someone will make the phone call. They did
the day I started and SE told the person that everything was in order.

[bigcountrysg]

The 90th District Court of Michigan aggrees with me. When an individual decided to fill his pond in with dirt.

He was charged with damaging protected wetlands, and was ordered to pay a fine plus to pay for the reconstruction of the wetland he destroyed. The pond was on his private property.

Oh and for your reading enjoyment.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-LWMD-WetlandQA-Final_270993_7.pdf

[bucko12pt]

The 90th District Court of Michigan aggrees with me. When an individual decided to fill his pond in with dirt.

He was charged with damaging protected wetlands, and was ordered to pay a fine plus to pay for the reconstruction of the wetland he destroyed. The pond was on his private property.

Oh and for your reading enjoyment.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-LWMD-WetlandQA-Final_270993_7.pdf

I about memorized your link when I was building my pond. Nothing new
there.

Filling wetlands is a whole different issue from digging a pond in your back
yard.

Also, the item I'm really concerned about is completing an Environmental
Impact Study for enlarging a pond in your backyard. Where is the reference to that statement?

I've been contemplating some mods to my pond and would like to see the reference that I need to complete said study.:confused:

[suzyandal]

Holy s -- t !!!!!, and I thought this was going to be easy :dizzy:

[bigcountrysg]

A pond usually falls under Clean Water Act. Being a pond provides a drainage ditch with some type of water flow. There for under this section is the reason for needing the permit.

You can do what ever you like. Being it is your property. But when someone complains about your actions and your sitting in a court room paying out your life savings. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[bucko12pt]

A pond usually falls under Clean Water Act. Being a pond provides a drainage ditch with some type of water flow. There for under this section is the reason for needing the permit.

You can do what ever you like. Being it is your property. But when someone complains about your actions and your sitting in a court room paying out your life savings. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Understand the whole permit process, because I've done it. Just confused with the Environmental Impact Study part. Seems the DEQ or SE would have told me about that part. Have'nt seen the Feds get involved in inland waters issues. If it's a Great Lakes tributary, probably a different story.

Digging a pond in your backyard can be as simple as calling SE and getting a permit locally. More involved if you're digging within 450' of an open body of water or stream..........ie. DEQ. I had both (another pond and stream within 450')

[swampbuck]

I agree with getting the permits. Just be up front about it and have a plan including where the spoils are going, Shouldnt be a problem unless you are in a wetlands area.

As far as eguipment, You are talking about a project that is beyond the capability of a backhoe...yes its possible. But you will be wasting a lot of time, putting a LOT of excessive wear on it, And dealing with the danger of flipping it because you will be to close to the hole. Not to mention dealing with the spoils. You NEED an excavator, dozer or loader with back blade, and if the spoils are to be moved a dumptruck.

And yes I have done it........many times.

[bigcountrysg]

Basically I was just getting to the point that there is more to it then just digging the hole.

bucko12pt you probably know more about this then me. I know from doing a highschool report. As well as friends having ponds put in on there property.

But like I said there is more to it then just getting a backhoe and start digging.

[bucko12pt]

I agree with getting the permits. Just be up front about it and have a plan including where the spoils are going, Shouldnt be a problem unless you are in a wetlands area.

As far as eguipment, You are talking about a project that is beyond the capability of a backhoe...yes its possible. But you will be wasting a lot of time, putting a LOT of excessive wear on it, And dealing with the danger of flipping it because you will be to close to the hole. Not to mention dealing with the spoils. You NEED an excavator, dozer or loader with back blade, and if the spoils are to be moved a dumptruck.

And yes I have done it........many times.

Actually, if you need to get a DEQ permit, you need to submit engineering
drawings of your plan and what you intend to do, how many cy yds. of material removed, where the spoils are going, etc etc. I did my own drawings and they accepted them. Also, the neighbors on all sides of my property were notified and given an opportunity to provide input and comments.

I agree, I would'nt get anywhere near a pond with a backhoe. Had a
fatality occur in Manistee Co. a number of years ago an hour after I left a jobsite where digging was being done with an HEX on rubber with no
outriggers deployed. I commented to the foreman while I was on the
jobsite, but they continued the way they were working. The HEX fell in, door side down and the guy drowned while his coworkers were breaking chains trying to pull the machine back up. Bad deal!!:sad:

Ponds are fun, but they are a lot of work and can be dangerous!!

[bucko12pt]

Basically I was just getting to the point that there is more to it then just digging the hole.

bucko12pt you probably know more about this then me. I know from doing a highschool report. As well as friends having ponds put in on there property.

But like I said there is more to it then just getting a backhoe and start digging.

Agreed.........................much more!!:D