Looking to pick up some more speed....

[sprk692]

and I just bought new carbon arrows last year so I was thinking about going to a lighter broadhead. Right now I shoot 100gr 1 1/4" cut muzzy broadheads. I really like them but I am open to suggestions on a 75 or 80 gr fixed blade broadhead. Any suggestions or opinions will be greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks in advance!!!!!

[cj.]

Tell us your set-up ... bow , lbs, draw length, arrows, arrow length. You might not be able to go to a lighter broadhead depending on how your bow is set up.

[hoyt_shooter101]

You should have no problem going to either the 75 or 80 grain head the muzzy 75 is a 4 blade head and is a little smaller on the cutting diameter I believe only 1/8 smaller.You should see about a 5 fps increase in speed as testing I've done in the past revealed about 1 fps for every 5 grain.Good luck with your switch.

[3fingervic]

I,too,would like to know your set up. There are a few things that might be able to be done. 1 inch more on your draw length could be a 10% increase in speed.

[hartofthethumb]

Tell us your set-up ... bow , lbs, draw length, arrows, arrow length. You might not be able to go to a lighter broadhead depending on how your bow is set up.
+1
You should have no problem going to either the 75 or 80 grain head the muzzy 75 is a 4 blade head and is a little smaller on the cutting diameter I believe only 1/8 smaller.You should see about a 5 fps increase in speed as testing I've done in the past revealed about 1 fps for every 5 grain.Good luck with your switch.
Changing tip weight is going to change the spine of the arrow, there is no way around that. Depending on current arrow spine, length, etc., going to a lighter tip may overspine the arrow out of acceptable range. This could potentially cause some pretty nasty shootability issues.

[sprk692]

Tell us your set-up ... bow , lbs, draw length, arrows, arrow length. You might not be able to go to a lighter broadhead depending on how your bow is set up.


2009 PSE X FORCE GX
70 lb
26" draw
Gold Tip Expedtion Hunter 5575 4 Inch Vanes
27 " arrow length
Trophy taker drop away
Toxonics 4 pin site

[Michihunter]

2009 PSE X FORCE GX
70 lb
26" draw
Gold Tip Expedtion Hunter 5575 4 Inch Vanes
27 " arrow length
Trophy taker drop away
Toxonics 4 pin siteDrop 1.5-2" off them arrows, or even better yet, go to a lighter arrow and try Blazer vanes. ;)

[redwingsdude]

:yeahthat:

Reducing weight up front may affect accuracy, and there are several other things you can do to pick up speed. I don't know of too many broadheads at 70 grains, 85 is pretty standard for light-weight heads, and 15 grains will only pick you up about 5 fps.

Blazer vanes will knock you down 3-4 grains PER vane.

Cutting your arrows two inches shorter (which is definitely possible with a drop-away) will cut 17 grains off of an 8.5 gpi arrow.

But speed is not more important than accuracy. You have an X-force at 70 pounds, you're never going to get the advertised 348 fps out of it with your DL, but you're still probably faster than most of us with longer draws.

[sprk692]

:yeahthat:

Reducing weight up front may affect accuracy, and there are several other things you can do to pick up speed. I don't know of too many broadheads at 70 grains, 85 is pretty standard for light-weight heads, and 15 grains will only pick you up about 5 fps.

Blazer vanes will knock you down 3-4 grains PER vane.

Cutting your arrows two inches shorter (which is definitely possible with a drop-away) will cut 17 grains off of an 8.5 gpi arrow.

But speed is not more important than accuracy. You have an X-force at 70 pounds, you're never going to get the advertised 348 fps out of it with your DL, but you're still probably faster than most of us with longer draws.

I know i wont get the advertised with my draw length. I just want to get as fast ans as accurate as I can.

[fishunter9160]

Start by making sure you set up is tuned the absolute best it can be, remove any unnecessary stuff from string like leaches,whiskers, ect. Shorten your arrows, use blazers. Good luck. :)

[redwingsdude]

I know i wont get the advertised with my draw length. I just want to get as fast ans as accurate as I can.

OK, but understand that these things do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. The fastest bow is probably not going to be the most accurate, and vice versa.

To get "as fast as you can" you could shoot a 5.5 inch brace with cams that make for a harsh draw cycle and very limited valley. Does this sound conducive to accuracy? If you wanted to make your bow as fast as possible, you could just go ahead and remove your d-loop, adding an extra .5 to 1 full inch on your draw. Or just make the draw a few inches longer, sure you might slap your arm, but it will be faster. Remove any string silencers, remove your peep or kisser too. Start shooting target arrows instead of hunting arrows, they might void your warranty and aren't worth a darn on big game, but you will increase speed.

All I'm saying is worry more about the shootability of your bow, not your bow being "as fast as you can" get it. got an X-force, so even with a shorter draw you're still shooting faster than the majority of us.

The changes you are suggesting might actually have negative effects on your shooting. Going to a lighter head might throw your spine out of whack, and speed doesn't do you any good if your arrow is flexing incorrectly and hitting the wrong spot.

[SVTFAN03]

You could shorten your string loop, if you use a kisser button i like to just wrap up a knot of serving instead saves a little weight and Easton just came out with a new arrow called a flatliner with lighter inserts and nocks if i remember correctly they are also very cost effective and while many may disagree if your comfortable with it you can always have your string twisted for more poundage obviously i would recommend having a pro shop do this.

[mibigbuckhunter]

If you are looking to just drop your weight for broadheads you may want to look at the new line up at InnerLoc's. Just make sure you still have a good foc.

[shell waster]

Switch to bucknnasty string, picked up 5 fps with my rig.

[Northern-Lights]

Just curious......but why are you so worried about speed? If you've never seen the videos.....try to find a slow motion video of deer dropping at the sound of the shot and ducking the arrow.

Sounds travels MUCH faster than an arrow....and deer react to it. They can drop a full body height faster than your arrow will get there no matter how fast you are shooting.

If you are bowhunting......it's much more important to be accurate and quiet. A quiet bow that you can shoot very well is far better than a speed demon which sounds like a rifle going off and which is right at the edge of being controlled.

However, if all you are doing is looking for a faster 3D bow......you still have to worry about proper tuning in order to hit what you are shooting at.

Speed is highly over rated most of the time.

[Joe Archer]

Speed is highly over rated most of the time.
:yeahthat:
You are already shooting a fine broadhead. If your bow is tuned, and you can shoot consistently; why worry about the speed? Personally, I would take the extra cutting diameter over the extra 5 feet/sec. Sooner or later as you increase speed you get erratic broadhead flight with fixed blades.
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

"Speed is overrated" is a comment usually attributed to those that lack it.:D:D

[hartofthethumb]

"Speed is overrated" is a comment usually attributed to those that lack it.:D:D
Lol, speed is definitely not over-rated but it is sometimes made the priority when it should not be. A slow hit is better than a fast miss, but a fast hit is even better.

[Joe Archer]

"Speed is overrated" is a comment usually attributed to those that lack it.:D:D
Lets see? I could make my bow a lot faster if I downsized my XX75 2219's and lightened my Thunderhead 125's. One could accurately say that I shoot a slower (approx 250 ft/sec) arrow by choice.
Take a look at one of these slow arrow/broadhead combinations in the following picture. The arrow closest to my sight in the picture passed through this 3.5 year old buck. Look closely at the front end of the arrow where it goes from blood-red to a traditional camo-color pattern. That is how much of the arrow stuck in the ground after passing through the buck that coincidentally ran 50 yards, stopped and toppled over.
If he could talk today, do you think this buck would say that speed is over rated?:lol::lol:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj62/JoeArcher/Hunt_2008/Picture330.jpg?t=1241799094
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

Joe- Why not go slower then? You could add a weight tube to that xx75, crank down the poundage and shoot 200fps if it wasn't that big of deal right?;)

[Atchison]

Joe- Why not go slower then? You could add a weight tube to that xx75, crank down the poundage and shoot 200fps if it wasn't that big of deal right?;)

My bow is only at 212 fps and that is with carbon and 100gr tips :lol::dizzy: .... I should have tested it with my aluminums and 125's i'm going with the 190s!

[Joe Archer]

Joe- Why not go slower then? You could add a weight tube to that xx75, crank down the poundage and shoot 200fps if it wasn't that big of deal right?;)
I am sure I could do exactly that and still kill deer pretty efficiently. When I started back in the early 80's my Darton SL-50 probably shot a blazing 150 feet/second. I stuck mature bucks with that bow and watched many fall within 50 yards not even knowing they were hit.
I think my current set up at 250 feet/seconds maximizes KE and keeps my speed just under the threshold common to the start of wind planing. I do not feel like shooting mechanicals or the over-priced high-tech fixed blades they invented as an attempt to combat wind planing.
<----<<<

[Pier Pressure]

...and the great speed debate rages on!!:dizzy::lol:

Keep in mind that any weight reduction in the arrow or the string is likely to increase bow noise. I think one of the bowhunter's biggest enemies is noise and I do what I can to keep my rig as quiet as possible. At a typical range of 20 yards or less it makes little difference what you shoot as long you shoot it accurately and confidently, IMHO.

I would be leary of going lighter in the point end of the arrow, if you like your current broadheads and have had good luck with them I'd stick with them.

Trading the 4" vanes for 4" feathers will get you a few fps. Feathers have much more surface area providing more stability than vanes but the speed you gain will be taken away + downrange. So if close range speed is the goal feathers will help but if a flatter trajectory downrange is wanted I'd look in to Blazers.

Any accessories in the middle of the string will rob speed too. Pushing string silencers closer to the cams can lessen their effect on speed.

Good luck.:)

[RobFromFlint]

Until they make a bow that shoots 1125 feet per second (speed of sound) bow noise should trump speed. That is my only thought on this. I don't understand why there is this need for speed.

[RobFromFlint]

Joe- Why not go slower then? You could add a weight tube to that xx75, crank down the poundage and shoot 200fps if it wasn't that big of deal right?;)
Sorry, had to reply to this. My bow shoots 580 grain arrows at a blazing 195 fps.

[mk_bovee]

i USED to believe int the notion of speed and more speed, til i went past the limits of my bow and had it blow up in my hands. :yikes: a rather costly lesson let me tell ya. since then i have went in the other direction, trying to make my bow as silent as possible, which meant that i had to sacrifice speed. my shooting has improved threefold since. and i also have noticed that the deer dont flinch as much as the used to when i was more worried about all out speed. like many in the thread have said, worry mor eabout silence and accuracy than pure raw speed.

[rattletot]

That SL-50 was a deer harvesting machine back in the day;) it brings back lots of good memories and we didn't have to care about speed back then:dizzy:

[3fingervic]

Joe at what speed does the wind planing start?

[Michihunter]

Joe at what speed does the wind planing start?
Not sure about Joe's setup but there wasn't any with mine at 321fps with 100gr Montecs and an overall arrow weight of 352 grs. That setup I would bet was MUCH quieter than most of the bows made prior to 2000. I also found that with speed, my bow reduced the judgment errors that come with slower setups at minor distance changes. Shooting an arrow that was basically flat out to 30 yards has a habit of doing that.;)

[bassdisaster]

Not sure about Joe's setup but there wasn't any with mine at 321fps with 100gr Montecs and an overall arrow weight of 352 grs. That setup I would bet was MUCH quieter than most of the bows made prior to 2000. I also found that with speed, my bow reduced the judgment errors that come with slower setups at minor distance changes. Shooting an arrow that was basically flat out to 30 yards has a habit of doing that.;)

HUH? a 70 lb IBO arrow shooting 321 fps, sure its fast, but couldent pass thru a cupcake! Just Picking!
Some states wouldent allow you to hunt with those arrows,they be too lite!
ENERGY is everything, speed can NOT make up for a lack of weight! Oh yeah you will say at 321 the enregy is high, the thing is........liter objects slow more rapidly than heavier objects, so you will lose considerably more of your stored eneregy than a hunter using a SLOWER but heavier arrow, having more energy down range where it counts, how many of us have shot a deer at 3 ft! Not me!
Without weight speed is MUTE, Ya Ive had IBO bows shoot 320's with arrows that were 5 grains per lb, would I hunt with such an arrow, Not in your dreams, hit anywhere but PERFECT and you have a potential WOUND!
As sportsmen in this great state, it is not only our right but responsibility to do everything to ensure a Quick Clean KILL, even if that means we cant go around bragging about how fast our bow's are! This aint no 3D tournament, its real life with the wellbeing of our prized game animals at stake!

BD

[Michihunter]

HUH? a 70 lb IBO arrow shooting 321 fps, sure its fast, but couldent pass thru a cupcake! Just Picking!
Some states wouldent allow you to hunt with those arrows,they be too lite!
ENERGY is everything, speed can NOT make up for a lack of weight! Oh yeah you will say at 321 the enregy is high, the thing is........liter objects slow more rapidly than heavier objects, so you will lose considerably more of your stored eneregy than a hunter using a SLOWER but heavier arrow, having more energy down range where it counts, how many of us have shot a deer at 3 ft! Not me!
Without weight speed is MUTE, Ya Ive had IBO bows shoot 320's with arrows that were 5 grains per lb, would I hunt with such an arrow, Not in your dreams, hit anywhere but PERFECT and you have a potential WOUND!
As sportsmen in this great state, it is not only our right but responsibility to do everything to ensure a Quick Clean KILL, even if that means we cant go around bragging about how fast our bow's are! This aint no 3D tournament, its real life with the wellbeing of our prized game animals at stake!

BD

We're talking about whitetail, not musk ox.:lol::lol: I can assure you thhat my 352 gr arrow will pass through ANY North American animal at 321 fps with energy left over. Not sure what type of set up you're using but I would bet your deer aren't any deader than mine. :lol::lol: BTW- Do the math- Momentum and KE are the two mathematical formulas for energy when it comes to arrows. If you think you're getting that much more of anything with a heavier setup, the math will prove you wrong EVERY time. I'll even supply ya the site to figure it: http://home.att.net/~sajackson/ballistics.html

My setup got 80 ft-lbs of KE and .5009843043362597 lbs-sec of Momentum. Yours?

[Joe Archer]

Joe at what speed does the wind planing start?
I don't think there is a magic cut off number. From what I have read, most would say it is somewhere around 250 feet per second. I am sure it is variable, and could be lower with larger cutting diameter broadheads. It could also be somewhat higher with some of the newer high-tech fixed blades designed to be shot at higher speed.
<----<<<

[bassdisaster]

We're talking about whitetail, not musk ox.:lol::lol: I can assure you thhat my 352 gr arrow will pass through ANY North American animal at 321 fps with energy left over. Not sure what type of set up you're using but I would bet your deer aren't any deader than mine. :lol::lol: BTW- Do the math- Momentum and KE are the two mathematical formulas for energy when it comes to arrows. If you think you're getting that much more of anything with a heavier setup, the math will prove you wrong EVERY time. I'll even supply ya the site to figure it: http://home.att.net/~sajackson/ballistics.html

My setup got 80 ft-lbs of KE and .5009843043362597 lbs-sec of Momentum. Yours?

So you agree then ENERGY IS WHERE ITS AT not speed? And if you must know, my bow shoots a 470 grain 2213 at 290 FPS, KE= 87.79! Using your calculator link I have more energy at 20 yards than you do str8 out of the bow!

A heavier arrow will make for a QUIET bow, even the new already QUIET bows, and if you think im wrong then so be it, ive been shooting competitive archery for years and Ive been figureing KE since way back when, I also consider myself a MASTER bow mechanic as Ive been at this game for a lifetime, If you believe your lite weight arrow can pass thru any game animal, then your sadly misinformed! Your lite weight arrow will STOP upon any undue friction, like the deer jumping, or turning, where as the heavier arrow will keep going!
Flat trajectory is nice but there are limits to its advantages!
This is the point, you can not make up for weight with speed, it will work in deer ya 90% of the time, but make a bad shot and the GIG is up!

BD

[Michihunter]

So you agree then ENERGY IS WHERE ITS AT not speed?
Test your 321 fps arrow at 20 yards, then do your MATH!
A heavier arrow will make for a QUIET bow, even the new already QUIET bows, and if you think im wrong then so be it, ive been shooting competitive archery and I am MASTER BOW MECHANIC, Ive figured KE way beck when, Ive been at this game for a lifetime, If you believe your lite weight arrow can pass thru any game animal, then your misinformed!

BD

BDWrite down the formulas and tell me whether or not speed has anything to do with energy. Here's a clue Mr. Master Bow Mechanic
Velocity=Speed.:D Now which part of the equation don't you understand? There are several things that allow for penetration and aside from mass and velocity, let's call those standard(ie: broadhead design, arrow diameter, etc) for the time being. Knowing that all we have left is KE and Momentum to figure on penetrating capabilities, what difference does it matter how you come by the end product? If you have a faster lighter arrow with the same KE and Momentum as the heavier slower setup, guess which one will penetrate farthest? Neither!! They will be the same. That's physics my friend and unless you plan on changing the laws that govern it, you'll just have to take my word for it that it is true.

Now going back to my particular setup with 80 ft-lbs of KE and approx .50 ft-sec of Momentum, how can you argue that it won't penetrate any animal in North America? Would you say a setup shooting 200fps with a 525 gr arrow could? I doubt too many people would argue that it could so lets look at the numbers.

200fps w/525 gr arrow gives you 47 ft-lbs of KE and .47 ft-sec of Momentum. Physics dictates that with everything else constant but the mass and velocity of these two setups, mine would penetrate more. Math does not lie.;) Want to hear the kicker? Using the same setups and shooting horizontally off a cliff, the slower setup will have a drop of 40" at 30 yards. The faster one? 16". ;)

[bassdisaster]

Write down the formulas and tell me whether or not speed has anything to do with energy. Here's a clue Mr. Master Bow Mechanic
Velocity=Speed.:D Now which part of the equation don't you understand? There are several things that allow for penetration and aside from mass and velocity, let's call those standard(ie: broadhead design, arrow diameter, etc) for the time being. Knowing that all we have left is KE and Momentum to figure on penetrating capabilities, what difference does it matter how you come by the end product? If you have a faster lighter arrow with the same KE and Momentum as the heavier slower setup, guess which one will penetrate farthest? Neither!! They will be the same. That's physics my friend and unless you plan on changing the laws that govern it, you'll just have to take my word for it that it is true.

Now going back to my particular setup with 80 ft-lbs of KE and approx .50 ft-sec of Momentum, how can you argue that it won't penetrate any animal in North America? Would you say a setup shooting 200fps with a 525 gr arrow could? I doubt too many people would argue that it could so lets look at the numbers.

200fps w/525 gr arrow gives you 47 ft-lbs of KE and .47 ft-sec of Momentum. Physics dictates that with everything else constant but the mass and velocity of these two setups, mine would penetrate more. Math does not lie.;) Want to hear the kicker? Using the same setups and shooting horizontally off a cliff, the slower setup will have a drop of 40" at 30 yards. The faster one? 16". ;)

You know the sayng, stupid is as stupid does!
Oh and go back and read again I edited it!


BD

[bassdisaster]

Dont mean to ruffel your feathers so to speak, but the point remains, expierence tells me heavier is better, hot HEAVY per say, I dont consider a 470 grain arrow to be HEAVY, but your hunting with an IBO setup that was and always will be a 3D archery setup, where penetration and energy mean nothing!

BD

[Michihunter]

You know the sayng, stupid is as stupid does!
Oh and go back and read again I edited it!


BDSo your bow IBO's at approx 330 fps. Imagine that, a speed bow. :yikes: Thanks for proving my point about speed being a factor.;) As far as feathers being ruffled, never an issue. Especially when the numbers prove out the theory. Like I said, math don't lie.

[bassdisaster]

So your bow IBO's at approx 330 fps. Imagine that, a speed bow. :yikes: Thanks for proving my point about speed being a factor.;) As far as feathers being ruffled, never an issue. Especially when the numbers prove out the theory. Like I said, math don't lie.

No math does not lie, but deer cant add!
Ya its a speed bow, but its not speedy, its a HUNTING rig, not a 3D rig, tho if I wanted to it would shoot 1 flat IBO arrow!
Do you recall AMO???
Its Archery MFG Org. they had a set standard for years of 7 grains per lb!
HUH I wonder if that just because they want to be slow!

LOL

BD

[Michihunter]

No math does not lie, but deer cant add!
Ya its a speed bow, but its not speedy, its a HUNTING rig, not a 3D rig, tho if I wanted to it would shoot 1 flat IBO arrow!
Do you recall AMO???
Its Archery MFG Org. they had a set standard for years of 7 grains per lb!
HUH I wonder if that just because they want to be slow!

LOL

BD
For someone that claims archery expertise, you sure don't have a clue on some things. AMO was established to provide a standard to the mfg's. They chose 7gr per pound for the simple reason is that most people were shooting those types of setups and it made most sense at the time. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see that you're having trouble distinguishing the principle that two different setups can be have equal penetrating capabilities based on physics so I'll bow out for now. But I would suggest that if you truly want to become a Master, that you study the physics side of archery before making statements such as "Heavier is better" or "Lighter doesn't penetrate".;)

[bassdisaster]

For someone that claims archery expertise, you sure don't have a clue on some things. AMO was established to provide a standard to the mfg's. They chose 7gr per pound for the simple reason is that most people were shooting those types of setups and it made most sense at the time. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see that you're having trouble distinguishing the principle that two different setups can be have equal penetrating capabilities based on physics so I'll bow out for now. But I would suggest that if you truly want to become a Master, that you study the physics side of archery before making statements such as "Heavier is better" or "Lighter doesn't penetrate".;)

Your too funny, I say 1 thing you think I said something else!
AMO was set up as to Uniform the archery standards, from and for the manfacturer's, who else is better equiped to say what is the optimum or minimum weight for any paticular bow? certainly not the IBO??
And ya it was back in the day, but when it came to weigh per lb AMO also set up that, If you want to make a point do it, insted of bashing me!
I havent seen 1 thing where your theories say Im wrong, if anything it says Im rite!
With enuff time and expierence you to will see that some bows shoot WAY more efficient with heavier arrows, and KILL faster and cleaner!
My bow is slower then your's but could be faster, but insted i chose to shoot a more lethal setup for hunting, can I tell the difference between 320 and 290 ya but it dont matter cause a deer can and will jump a 400FPS bow! So if you think 320fps will ensure you get that deer, again your mistaken!
Bow out if you have to its the girily thing to do!

BD

[Michihunter]

Has nothing to do with deer jumping the string but EVERYTHING to do with distance judgment errors. Whether your setup is heavy or light, both will effectively kill any North American game. The math proves that out as I have said repeatedly. That's the one thing where you were proven in error.

The second thing is that you said speed has nothing to do with it but energy does. Unfortunately you fail to realize that speed is part of that energy equation. So by definition it is indeed a critical component of energy.

Next you first mention AMO and the 7gpp and facetiously ask"Do you think they just wanted it slow?" I explained the reasons for it and if you look at the setups we(or at least I) used to shoot back then, that was the norm. Carbon was yet to be used for arrows and most people were advocates of HUGE FOC's and shaft weights to make up for the lack of speed. Today the same mfg's now advocate 5gpp so if what you say is right-who else is better equipped to say what is the optimum- I would agree. Wait a few years and I'll bet that drops as well. We've already seen several companies warranty their bows to 3gpp. With technological advances comes new standards. It's inevitable.

For what it's worth, and it can be confirmed by several members here, I've been shooting archery for 35 yrs. I've traveled the circuit for ASA, IBO, and FITA. So aside from the fact that you don't understand who I am or what I know, you are still failing to realize what physics tells us. And that's the sad truth of this whole matter and the most important part of this entire exchange. A light arrow with the same KE and the same Momentum as a heavier arrow (and with all other factors equal), will penetrate the same amount. Period.

[bassdisaster]

Has nothing to do with deer jumping the string but EVERYTHING to do with distance judgment errors. Whether your setup is heavy or light, both will effectively kill any North American game. The math proves that out as I have said repeatedly. That's the one thing where you were proven in error.

The second thing is that you said speed has nothing to do with it but energy does. Unfortunately you fail to realize that speed is part of that energy equation. So by definition it is indeed a critical component of energy.

Next you first mention AMO and the 7gpp and facetiously ask"Do you think they just wanted it slow?" I explained the reasons for it and if you look at the setups we(or at least I) used to shoot back then, that was the norm. Carbon was yet to be used for arrows and most people were advocates of HUGE FOC's and shaft weights to make up for the lack of speed. Today the same mfg's now advocate 5gpp so if what you say is right-who else is better equipped to say what is the optimum- I would agree. Wait a few years and I'll bet that drops as well. We've already seen several companies warranty their bows to 3gpp. With technological advances comes new standards. It's inevitable.

For what it's worth, and it can be confirmed by several members here, I've been shooting archery for 35 yrs. I've traveled the circuit for ASA, IBO, and FITA. So aside from the fact that you don't understand who I am or what I know, you are still failing to realize what physics tells us. And that's the sad truth of this whole matter and the most important part of this entire exchange. A light arrow with the same KE and the same Momentum as a heavier arrow (and with all other factors equal), will penetrate the same amount. Period.

I too traveled the IBO tripple crown, IBO world shoot, 1 was in 1996, ASA and shot Nfaa and MAA for 30 years, so you dont know where I come from either, Im a custom bow and string builder with enuff expierence to set up any bow for any application!
5 grains per lb was determined by the IBO to the the minimum safe barrier, now that is the standard? makes sence if you want to shoot fast, but speed is over rated if you have the energy, all the technical BS you provide means nothing, no energy no kill simple as that!
energy is generated by the speed of an object carrying weight, the less weight the less energy and momentum regardless of speed, Not to mention a 300 fps second bow tends to shoot more stable than a 321fps bow, try a heavier arrow, see if you notice the difference?
My bet only a seasoned pro really can, anyone can find literature to back up what they believe, my belief's come from piratical experience,
NO decent shop would sell a novice a IBO setup to hunt with, its a given a little heavier in the 6 grains per lb area is better suited for hunting, fight the truth if you must but it is what it is!

BD

[Michihunter]

I too traveled the IBO tripple crown, IBO world shoot, 1 was in 1996, ASA and shot Nfaa and MAA for 30 years, so you dont know where I come from either, Im a custom bow and string builder with enuff expierence to set up any bow for any application!
5 grains per lb was determined by the IBO to the the minimum safe barrier, now that is the standard? makes sence if you want to shoot fast, but speed is over rated if you have the energy, all the technical BS you provide means nothing, no energy no kill simple as that!
energy is generated by the speed of an object carrying weight, the less weight the less energy and momentum regardless of speed, Not to mention a 300 fps second bow tends to shoot more stable than a 321fps bow, try a heavier arrow, see if you notice the difference?
My bet only a seasoned pro really can, anyone can find literature to back up what they believe, my belief's come from piratical experience,
NO decent shop would sell a novice a IBO setup to hunt with, its a given a little heavier in the 6 grains per lb area is better suited for hunting, fight the truth if you must but it is what it is!

BD

Once again, you are stating opinions. I am stating facts. Facts derived by the application of physics. To say that a setup with 80ft-lbs of KE and .50 ft-sec of Momentum couldn't penetrate a cupcake and basing it on the gpp that was used is hilarious. To say that a reduction in mass reduces energy without saying that the same can be said about speed is just plain ignorance. You are arguing that speed has nothing to do with energy, only mass does. You need to get back to school if you don't understand that BOTH are responsible for thhe energy you speak of. And the fluctuation of either will cause a change in energy. Raise speed, energy goes up. Raise mass energy goes up. Lower speed energy goes down. Lower mass energy goes down. See how that works? It's not technical BS, it's physics which is a bit more reliable to most people than someone's opinion. Embrace knowledge, for it will open many new doors into your archery expertise.

IBO set up NOTHING as a "safe" standard or a minimum barrier. Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge in this area. It is merely a standard of measure. Nothing to do with safety. Sorta like the difference between SAE and Metric. The reasoning behind it was that IBO felt they needed to make a heavier presence in the industry and that people tended to use speed as the main criteria in rating a bow. Carbon arrows allowed for a lower gpp and faster speeds so they used that as a standard. Really quite as simple as that. BTW- The standard for AMO was 9gpp or a 540 gr arrow at 60#'s. Meant to correct you on that earlier.

This is actually getting quite boring. Anyone that would shirk the physics involved in archery and its mechanics is certainly someone that I'd rather not debate. Facts don't stand a chance when someone refuses to see the evidence before them.

[bassdisaster]

Ok you win, 5 grains per lb for everyone, will kill anything, just cant use in in all states, dont let that bother you, they dont know what they are doing!

Ha ha ha

BD

[Michihunter]

For those that aren't reading impaired, nowhere do I advocate any gpp as a basis for penetrating abilities. I believe I spelled it out more than clearly in my earlier attempts to explain things but some would rather ignore physics and facts in favor of an opinion. :rolleyes:

[bassdisaster]

For those that aren't reading impaired, nowhere do I advocate any gpp as a basis for penetrating abilities. I believe I spelled it out more than clearly in my earlier attempts to explain things but some would rather ignore physics and facts in favor of an opinion. :rolleyes:
I said you won, beat a dead horse why dont ya!
Your shooting 70 lbs yes, and a 352 grain arrow, aah but thats 5 grains per lb!

BD

[PWOG]

Not to pop anyones bubble. The two of you have got long winded and focused on each other instead of proof of anything your saying.
Granted the arc will be taller on a slow arrow.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e35/locator012/Chart.jpg

[bassdisaster]

Dunno where you found this PWOG, but it seems to prove my point:yikes:

When we as archers consider what the average shot distance is 18yds, then Why bother with trying to gain extra speed when any trajectory or yardage estimation errors will still hit well within the killing zone! Personally I sight in with 1 pin at 25 yards, ya it hits a little high at 18 and just a tad low at 30, what more could any one ask for!
I was not trying to bash you Michi, rather to show people that IBO weights are for 3D shooting not hunting, I never said IBO weights wont kill, when I said it wouldent penetrate a cupcake I said JUST KIDDING! The points you made are valid, but those #'s would better suit a SEASONED archer/shooter, not a Part time archer who shoots mainly for hunting!
I guess the main point is that no amount of speed will make up for a lack of weight/energy. Certainly does not mean it's not lethal! Esp. when you consider 45lbs of energy is sufficient to kill a deer!
Some states do not allow light weigh arrows, still living in the dark ages i guess, modern bows all shoot FAST enuff to carry the required energy to do the job! EVEN at IBO weight, but penetration is not only determined by energy or a lack of it, if the deer flinched, then i want the weight/energy to ensure penetration , if it stands still like a McKenzie target, no worries!
Oh and I lied, my arrows are only 464 grains! oops! lol
Oh and just to say it AGAIN, the IBO set up 5 grains per lb, no its not just a unit of measure, its a SAFE barrier mark, nothing more, if they wouldent had set it at 5 grains BOWS would had been EXPLODING all over the place, cause people will do w.e. to gain a speed advantage on the 3D course!

BD

[Michihunter]

Dunno where you found this PWOG, but it seems to prove my point:yikes:

When we as archers consider what the average shot distance is 18yds, then Why bother with trying to gain extra speed when any trajectory or yardage estimation errors will still hit well within the killing zone! Personally I sight in with 1 pin at 25 yards, ya it hits a little high at 18 and just a tad low at 30, what more could any one ask for!
I was not trying to bash you Michi, rather to show people that IBO weights are for 3D shooting not hunting, I never said IBO weights wont kill, when I said it wouldent penetrate a cupcake I said JUST KIDDING! The points you made are valid, but those #'s would better suit a SEASONED archer/shooter, not a Part time archer who shoots mainly for hunting!
I guess the main point is that no amount of speed will make up for a lack of weight/energy. Certainly does not mean it's not lethal! Esp. when you consider 45lbs of energy is sufficient to kill a deer!
Some states do not allow light weigh arrows, still living in the dark ages i guess, modern bows all shoot FAST enuff to carry the required energy to do the job! EVEN at IBO weight, but penetration is not only determined by energy or a lack of it, if the deer flinched, then i want the weight/energy to ensure penetration , if it stands still like a McKenzie target, no worries!
Oh and I lied, my arrows are only 464 grains! oops! lol
Oh and just to say it AGAIN, the IBO set up 5 grains per lb, no its not just a unit of measure, its a SAFE barrier mark, nothing more, if they wouldent had set it at 5 grains BOWS would had been EXPLODING all over the place, cause people will do w.e. to gain a speed advantage on the 3D course!

BD

Once again, you're missing the entire point. IBO arrow has NOTHING to do with it. The energy behind the entire setup is what matters no matter what the weight of the arrow. When you get to a certain point of KE, anything more becomes overkill and wasted energy. That graph shows a bow shooting a 300 gr arrow at 263 fps. Not sure what bow that is but I can assure you it ain't anywhere close to what most people are shooting today. Take the same chart but start out with 80 ft-lbs of KE at 320fps and see where you are at 60 yards. I can GUARANTEE that the energy willl still be more than the heavier setup in that chart. When you proposed 6 gpp as a ideal setup I asked you if a 352 gr arrow out of a 50# bow then becomes more lethal than with a 70# bow because then it would be 6gpp instead of 5gpp. Your premise is flawed for that very reason.

Here's a look at the ballistics of the setup I mentioned(at 60 yards it blows that 700 gr arrow out of the water and btw only lost 16% of it's energy at 60 yards and still only 25% at 100) :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v462/Michihunter/BallisticsArrow.jpg

[bassdisaster]

So those who shoot a 300 mag winchester do it because they dont mind wasted energy?
No its because its MORE effective at KILLING!

Im done with you, wast of time on a lost cause!

BD

[Michihunter]

So those who shoot a 300 mag winchester do it because they dont mind wasted energy?
No its because its MORE effective at KILLING!

Im done with you, wast of time on a lost cause!

BD
Are you kidding me? More effective at killing WHAT? Dead is dead!! I bet we can get em even deader if we use a T Rex .577 ;) :lol::lol:

[PWOG]

That graph shows a bow shooting a 300 gr arrow at 263 fps. Not sure what bow that is but I can assure you it ain't anywhere close to what most people are shooting today.
(at 60 yards it blows that 700 gr arrow out of the water

Your failing to understand also that the chart i used was based on a 60lb bow shooting a 30" arrow.
Put your same fast bow in that chart or the one your using entering all of the changed values in speed you come up with and the listed arrow weights my chart has and see how things work out. Ill be curious to see if your IBO setup still blows everything away on energy downrange at those listed.
BTW!! you have to use a 30" arrow not that sawed off shorty you have laying around that will get blown off coarse in a crosswind way sooner then a heavier shaft.
You have some work to do michi

[bassdisaster]

Your failing to understand also that the chart i used was based on a 60lb bow shooting a 30" arrow.
Put your same fast bow in that chart or the one your using entering all of the changed values in speed you come up with and the listed arrow weights my chart has and see how things work out. Ill be curious to see if your IBO setup still blows everything away on energy downrange at those listed.
BTW!! you have to use a 30" arrow not that sawed off shorty you have laying around that will get blown off coarse in a crosswind way sooner then a heavier shaft.
You have some work to do michi

Naa he wont do it, he's convinced that his IBO weight arrow is the BEST thing there is, why would he EVEN bother to LEARN something 1st hand, when reading is easier! Ballistics are ballistics, windage is windage but hay if you shoot a 321fps IBO arrow, WHO CARES

Wind wise , well if its blowing hard, he prolly lets those deer over 20 yards walk he he he

Don't wast any time on this guy, its a wasted effort!

BD

[Michihunter]

Your failing to understand also that the chart i used was based on a 60lb bow shooting a 30" arrow.
Put your same fast bow in that chart or the one your using entering all of the changed values in speed you come up with and the listed arrow weights my chart has and see how things work out. Ill be curious to see if your IBO setup still blows everything away on energy downrange at those listed.
BTW!! you have to use a 30" arrow not that sawed off shorty you have laying around that will get blown off coarse in a crosswind way sooner then a heavier shaft.
You have some work to do michi
PWOG- Tell me why you want me to change MY setup? Are you insinuating the same thing bassdisaster did and trying to tell me that that particular setup is any less lethal than whatever you choose to use? If so then I'll say it once again, the math does NOT lie. It does not matter if you can get MORE energy after a certain point. I have 80ft-lbs of KE and .50ft-sec of momentum to start with. At 60 yards that drops down to 67 and .45. Are you honestly trying to say that setup won't take North American game just as easily as one with more energy? They'd both be pass throughs with arrows buried into the dirt. Only difference being yours would be buried further. :lol::lol:

Bassdisaster- You still don't get it do ya? The BEST setup is one that kills effectively. The numbers prove that MY setup does just as well as anything in that chart, in fact BETTER. You can't kill something deader just because you have more energy. The thing you strive for is an arrow that will pass through anything that it hits on your game. I can GUARANTEE my setup will passthrough ANY game animal in the US at ANY reasonable distance. The difference is mine will have LESS potential errors from yardage miscalculations. Why would I need more weight to increase energy when I already have WAY MORE than enough to do the job?

Give it up gentlemen, you are trying to convince me I need a T-Rex .577 when a .270 does the same job just as effectively.

[PWOG]

I dont want you to change your set up at all.
Its taking animals at the yardages your shooting, but

Try killing dangerous game (brown bear, Moose, Muskox, Polar Bear) with one of your arrows and the Alaskan guide will kick your A** back to where you came from, pronto and you know it!

[Michihunter]

I dont want you to change your set up at all.
Its taking animals at the yardages your shooting, but

Try killing dangerous game (brown bear, Moose, Muskox, Polar Bear) with one of your arrows and the Alaskan guide will kick your A** back to where you came from, pronto and you know it!Next time I run into a musk ox I'll keep that in mind. :D

As for the bear's and Moose, although I probably wouldn't use that particular setup, I'd STILL be confident in a kill if I did. Traditional setups with merely a percentage of the the energy have done no worse.;)

PWOG- Just out of curiosities sake, would you condone the use of that 700 gr setup shooting 190fps for the "dangerous game" you mentioned?

[PWOG]

Next time I run into a musk ox I'll keep that in mind. :D

As for the bear's and Moose, although I probably wouldn't use that particular setup, I'd STILL be confident in a kill if I did. Traditional setups with merely a percentage of the the energy have done no worse.;)

PWOG- Just out of curiosities sake, would you condone the use of that 700 gr setup shooting 190fps for the "dangerous game" you mentioned?

You did say North America?
Would i condone it? it isnt up to what i think!
Try that question on the Grizzley/Moose/Polar Bear/ yes Muskox Guide working for you or one of the Guide Booths at the local Novi Sport Shows!!
Better yet if you run into any Pro thats been there and done that (i can think of a few cant you?) ask them what is an etchical arrow, with energy behind it then. ok

[Michihunter]

You did say North America?
Would i condone it? it isnt up to what i think!
Try that question on the Grizzley/Moose/Polar Bear/ yes Muskox Guide working for you or one of the Guide Booths at the local Novi Sport Shows!!
Better yet if you run into any Pro thats been there and done that (i can think of a few cant you?) ask them what is an etchical arrow, with energy behind it then. ok
Would a native Alaskan suffice?:lol::lol: You obviously have an opinion for everything else, are you afraid to put yourself on the line with that question?

[PWOG]

Would a native Alaskan suffice?:lol::lol: You obviously have an opinion for everything else, are you afraid to put yourself on the line with that question?

Looks as though i may have hit a nerve...no longer are your requips extended drawn out windbag responses similar to that of..well to put it bluntly, you.

No i wouldnt CONDONE a 700gr arrow with only 56ftlbs of KE on dangerous game but you know i wouldnt dont you?
I have seen pros and other people reading this would agree haveing seen the same pros shooting almost 1000gr arrows and 90lb draw weights for the dangerous game they chose to hunt. They double arrow shafts inside of each other as well as backfilling the shafts with sand.
“What about momentum?” you ask. Momentum, like KE, is another way to measure the ‘power’ in an object that’s moving. Some have suggested that momentum is an important factor when you’re comparing the potential penetration of a heavy and slow arrow vs. a light and fast arrow. For example, a 375 grain arrow traveling at 280 fps has about the same KE as a 600 grain arrow moving at 220 fps. The latter, though, has more momentum and theoretically should provide superior penetration.

This being said and my longest rambleing wind-bagged attempt to resemble you thus far (how am i doing?)
Im done here. Continue on for applause michi if you feel the need , its your stage.

[Michihunter]

Looks as though i may have hit a nerve...no longer are your requips extended drawn out windbag responses similar to that of..well to put it bluntly, you.

No i wouldnt CONDONE a 700gr arrow with only 56ftlbs of KE on dangerous game but you know i wouldnt dont you?
I have seen pros and other people reading this would agree haveing seen the same pros shooting almost 1000gr arrows and 90lb draw weights for the dangerous game they chose to hunt. They double arrow shafts inside of each other as well as backfilling the shafts with sand.
“What about momentum?” you ask. Momentum, like KE, is another way to measure the ‘power’ in an object that’s moving. Some have suggested that momentum is an important factor when you’re comparing the potential penetration of a heavy and slow arrow vs. a light and fast arrow. For example, a 375 grain arrow traveling at 280 fps has about the same KE as a 600 grain arrow moving at 220 fps. The latter, though, has more momentum and theoretically should provide superior penetration.

This being said and my longest rambleing wind-bagged attempt to resemble you thus far (how am i doing?)
Im done here. Continue on for applause michi if you feel the need , its your stage.

Longest rambling wind bag? The copy/paste from Dr. Mark Timney's article, KE is King, must have left you exhausted.:lol: Of course if you thoroughly read that article as well as a few others floating around out there, you'd find that 65 ft-lbs is a recommended KE minimum for the toughest of game. Here's the link for those that would like to follow along with the post PWOG seems to want to take credit for: http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/index.cfm And here's another from Hunters Friend: http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm#16-kineticenergy http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v462/Michihunter/KERequirements.jpg

So now that you've actually seen what the experts recommend and you realize that I'm WAY over that mark on KE as well as having .50 ft-sec of momentum, you're bowing out? How noble of you.:lol:

[PWOG]

Longest rambling wind bag? The copy/paste from Dr. Mark Timney's article, KE is King, must have left you exhausted. Here's the link for those that would like to follow along with the post PWOG seems to want to take credit for: http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/index.cfm And here's another from Hunters Friend: http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm#16-kineticenergy So now that you've actually seen what the experts recommend and you realize that I'm WAY over that mark on KE as well as having .50 ft-sec of momentum, you're bowing out? How noble of you.:lol:

Its internet fodder bonehead you dont need a license to quote it on a public forum. I dont recall claiming it as my own.
Easton makes recommendations,
Other people decide for themselves whats ethical for momentum.
Hunt the heavy boned animals with your pea shooter. I might read about you disappearing in Alaska's papers as well.

[bassdisaster]

Im wondering who exactly it is your trying to impress Michi?
No one here ever said 80lbs of energy was NOT enuff to Kill, what we said is your 80 lbs. will be 40 lbs. when ours is still 65+lbs. down range, WHERE IT MATTERS!

You are not ALL that, You wanna be!

BD

[Michihunter]

Im wondering who exactly it is your trying to impress Michi?
No one here ever said 80lbs of energy was NOT enuff to Kill, what we said is your 80 lbs. will be 40 lbs. when ours is still 65+lbs. down range, WHERE IT MATTERS!

You are not ALL that, You wanna be!

BD
So you guys are shooting over 100 yards? Mine drops to 60ft-lbs of KE at precisely 100 yards so I'm wondering just how far you shoot at animals:dizzy: I'm may not be all that but I sure seem to be better at mathematics than you guys.:lol::lol: FWIW- My setup is getting your 65 ft-lbs at 70 yards. A bit farther than I shoot at animals nowadays so I'm not all that concerned about only having the minimum recommendation for the largest game animals at that distance.

BTW- Lets remember who called who out on my particular setup.;) And also who keeps reverting back to childish name calling which is a dead give away when someones losing a debate.

[bassdisaster]

That will do the job, but the resoning behind all this CRAP, is that your setup, being your a SHOOTER would not be reccomended to regular JOE hunter:yikes:
Regular Joe Hunter needs that extra edge to ensure a clean kill, he's not likely to have shot 3,000 arrows this season, he's not likely to have shot 500 in preperation for the hunting season, therfor your suggestion that lighter is as good or better well to put it BLUNTLY....................SUCKS!
Rather than making assumptions on what you read, go ask the people who know, ask any local shop what they recomenr for a beginner, or even a seasoned hunter, as apparently no # of replies here from whomever is ever going to open your eye's:dizzy:
Sounds to me you have been fortunate thus far in your deer hunting, no bad shot's, but it will happen, then you will quite possably see the error of your way's, till then Good luck
I would never hope a wounded deer on anyone, because it will suck your heart thru a straw!
Whats good for 1 is not nessarily good for others!

BD

[Michihunter]

That will do the job, but the resoning behind all this CRAP, is that your setup, being your a SHOOTER would not be reccomended to regular JOE hunter:yikes:
Regular Joe Hunter needs that extra edge to ensure a clean kill, he's not likely to have shot 3,000 arrows this season, he's not likely to have shot 500 in preperation for the hunting season, therfor your suggestion that lighter is as good or better well to put it BLUNTLY....................SUCKS!
Rather than making assumptions on what you read, go ask the people who know, ask any local shop what they recomenr for a beginner, or even a seasoned hunter, as apparently no # of replies here from whomever is ever going to open your eye's:dizzy:
Sounds to me you have been fortunate thus far in your deer hunting, no bad shot's, but it will happen, then you will quite possably see the error of your way's, till then Good luck
I would never hope a wounded deer on anyone, because it will suck your heart thru a straw!
Whats good for 1 is not nessarily good for others!

BD

A bad shot with ANY setup is risky. Because a setup is lighter doesn't change that fact. It does not make it more "riskier" tyo shoot a lighter setup as long as the energy is there. And I would argue that it LESS risky because yardage estimates are less critical. As for asking someone that knows, I DO know. In case you missed it, I've got a few years experience and have a TON of friends that have as much experience well. You are arguing that your setup is somehow magically better because it is heavier. If in fact what you state has even an inkling of truth to it, why aren't you shooting a 700 gr arrow? Afterall, it would be better based on your reasoning. As speed increased with modern technology, the need for such heavy setups has been reduced. Hence carbon arrows, 100gr and under broadheads, smaller vanes that steer broadheads better, etc etc. The reason people shot heavy setups back in the day was because they LACKED SPEED. One of these days you'll get it, in the meantime keep trying to convince yourself that you NEED heavy arrows to effectively kill game. I'll be eating venison regardless.;)

[PWOG]

The entire point of the 700 gr level is to calculate momentum energy in regards to light vs heavy.
Niether i or many other people regularly shoot 700gr arrows for Michigan whitetails, come on Michi take the intentional blinders off.

I dont see the ton of friends supporting your mouth out here

[PWOG]

Re: Sarcasm
Your sarcastic remark in the one thread implies thhat I didn't pay attention to what you were trying to say in another thread. I can assure you that not only did I pay VERY close attention but I also have questions regarding the chart you posted. I can pretty much guarantee that it's inaccurate. Can you provide the source for it? I'd love to hear the authors claims regarding how an arrow with 400 more grains only lost 70 fps. And how the 60 yards were actually calculated. I'd love to see the sight someone used with a 700 gr arrow shooting 190fps at 60 yards and then through a chrono..

Why would you think someone else's chart is innacurate and not the one that your using? Your gauranteeing his calculation values are pure? what kind of double standard crap is that?
Hope you dont think i would send you the link after that remark now do ya?
Lets see, how would they calculate speed at different distances, hmmm lets ponder the obvious a moment.
How do cops measure your speed from a distance?
How does MLB measure speed of pitches?
uhmm how about tennis? seen those speeds listed too havnt ya?
A bit more difficult and you better be accurate!!... is to set the chrono out at those distances!! lol
Radar will have no more +/- error as your chrono will so dont even try that one.
Sounds pretty easily accomplished to me and bassdisater
Mathematical genius? not hardly...postureing yes more likely

[Michihunter]

The entire point of the 700 gr level is to calculate momentum energy in regards to light vs heavy.
Niether i or many other people regularly shoot 700gr arrows for Michigan whitetails, come on Michi take the intentional blinders off.

I dont see the ton of friends supporting your mouth out hereI'm not using your chart to say 700 gr. I'll use 900 if it makes any difference to you. Or 600 or whatever you so desire. The point is, if heavier is better, why not go heavier than you already are? Or do you feel that you already have enough energy with the lighter arrow? The entire reasoning behind this exchange has been that heavier is somehow better because it provides MORE energy. Well if that's the case, wouldn't 600 gr provide MORE energy than 462 gr? And thus be the BETTER setup? Or do you use the lighter arrow because you KNOW you already have MORE than enough energy? Can you see the point now?

PWOG- If ya want to post PM's then post the entire exchange and perhaps you'd understand a bit better WHY I said that. In fact, I said that BOTH the calculations are off and I even explained why. Funny how you didn't post that part of it.

[PWOG]

Your losing track of how many PM's youve sent Michi

I didnt quote your most recent one....yet

[bassdisaster]

I'm not using your chart to say 700 gr. I'll use 900 if it makes any difference to you. Or 600 or whatever you so desire. The point is, if heavier is better, why not go heavier than you already are? Or do you feel that you already have enough energy with the lighter arrow? The entire reasoning behind this exchange has been that heavier is somehow better because it provides MORE energy. Well if that's the case, wouldn't 600 gr provide MORE energy than 462 gr? And thus be the BETTER setup? Or do you use the lighter arrow because you KNOW you already have MORE than enough energy? Can you see the point now?

PWOG- If ya want to post PM's then post the entire exchange and perhaps you'd understand a bit better WHY I said that. In fact, I said that BOTH the calculations are off and I even explained why. Funny how you didn't post that part of it.

I stated once already that theres a LIMIT to the ADVANTAGES of speed, if you cant understand that simple statement then I for 1 am done with you, I am already shooting a little heavier, are you?? NO your still stuck defending IBO weight's, YES 5 grains per lb as your recommendation as HUNTING weight, simply because some chart tells you it has enuff energy!

Good luck bud, hope your marginal shot does not come back to haunt ya!

BD

[Michihunter]

I stated once already that theres a LIMIT to the ADVANTAGES of speed, if you cant understand that simple statement then I for 1 am done with you, I am already shooting a little heavier, are you?? NO your still stuck defending IBO weight's, YES 5 grains per lb as your recommendation as HUNTING weight, simply because some chart tells you it has enuff energy!

Good luck bud, hope your marginal shot does not come back to haunt ya!

BDIn other words your 462 gr is better than the heavier 600 gr arrow even though it doesn't have as much energy yet also better than the lighter 352 gr arrow because it does have more energy. Gotcha :lol::lol:

And YES, I absolutely DO recommend 5gpp IF it produces enough energy to effectively kill the game being hunted. If it does not (such as with a 40# DW bow), then NO I do not. In other words and as I have already stated COUNTLESS times, gpp is NOT a good way to gauge arrow weight. Capiche'?

[Michihunter]

Your losing track of how many PM's youve sent Michi

I didnt quote your most recent one....yet
I sent you one and replied to another. That would be a grand total of 2. I know math isn't your strong suit but it certainly isn't too hard for you to count that high is it?:rolleyes: I'll do the honors of posting it for you considering you seem to be having a difficult time:


The reason I asked is because through several different calculators, the numbers ALL come up the same for the heavier arroiws yet for some reason they never come up the same for the lighter arrows. Another thing I believe is that BOTH are calculations are wrong with the heavier arrow and I'll try to explain why. If you have an open mind you just might agree with me.

First I'll ask you this question- Do you honestly believe that the 700gr arrow only slowed down 9fps at 6o yards? I certainly don't, but I understand WHY the calculators think so. They base their numbers off of the assumption that the arrow is shot level to the earth and off a cliff. Anything with weight will be less negatively affected by gravity while it's going horizontal or downward (off a cliff). Shoot that same arrow upward and it will be more positively influenced by gravity thus slowing it down MORE on the way to its apex than a lighter arrow would. There is no apex figured in with those calculators thus there is no reduction accounted for. Does that make sense to you?

As you can plainly see, I said BOTH of our calculations would be off for the reasons mentioned above. I know it's tough for you guys to understand basic principles of physics but a little googling or maybe even a jr high physics textbook might help you better understand ballistics and the effects gravity has on projectiles.;)

[PWOG]

no difficulty with any of the calculations or understanding who you are.
Ill stick with the fact you admitted having to change your setup to hunt heavy boned dangerous game in an earlier post of yours.
Or was it one of those 2 pm's?
irregardless i dont want you to change your mind on arrow weight its plenty to kill little whitetails, as I said earlier maybe someday ill be reading about you..:lol:


As for the bear's and Moose, although I probably wouldn't use that particular setup, I'd STILL be confident in a kill if I did.