.17 Calibers for Predators

[uptracker]

Seems that a lot of people think of the HMR as being the only .17 Caliber out there and it seems to get a lot of confusion going. .17 HMR's are not a good coyote round. Many have even claimed that they're not adequate for fox either. I DO NOT suggest using a .17 HMR for prdeator hunting no matter what you've heard.

Just to clarify a few things. First, the .17 HMR is not the only .17 cal out there. There's actually quite a few. Most .17 caliber predator hunters nowdays use the .17 Rem. Although the .17 Predator and .17 Javelina have quite a following too. If you haven't seen "Winter Magic" yet, buy it. Most of the dogs on that video are shot with a .17 Javelina and a few with a .19 Here's a few links:

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/which17.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/17wildcats.html

http://www.rmvh.com/The%2017%20Predator%20cartridge.htm

Look at the .17 Predator video here....30 dogs with a .17: http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20-%20In%20The%20Field.htm

So...there's proof that some .17's are good coyote killing guns. If you can shoot a .17 caliber with a 25-30 gr. bullet pushing 3,500-4,000 fps....you can kill a lot of dogs. The good thing is, it puts a pin hole in them with no exit wound...97+% of the time. Too many people way overgun themselves then there's a few that under gun themselves for coyotes. Good thing is, you get the same results with the same rifles with cats and fox too. Hit a fox with a .22-250 and you'll walk up to a two pieces of a fox more times than not. Hit a fox with a .17 Rem and 97% of the time you'll walk up to a fox and have to search for any holes.

The .17 Rem seems to be the most popular .17 caliber for K9's. It's been around since 1971 and has had a great following. Factory loads can still be had, but most hand load them with 24.5 gr. of IMR 4320 and a 25 gr. Berger Match Target bullet. This seems to be the best combination. It enters the dog and turns the organs in the chest cavity to jello...with no exit hole. The .17 and .17 Predator are quite similar in velocity and downrange performance. They shoot the same bullets too, obviously. On top of reloading the Beger's, the Wood Chuck Den now offers .17 bullets called Golds. They are also offering a new boat tail bullet that'll likely buck the wind a ton better for really long range shooting a prarie dogs and chucks.

Here's some good reading on the .17 Rem:

http://www.sgrcustomrifles.com/perfect-predator-rifle.html

http://www.coyotegods.com/pagepart15.html

http://www.geocities.com/graymist44/varmint17b.html#results

http://www.theamericanoutdoorsman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=39:predator&id=76:guns-for-fox-hunting&Itemid=98

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/17rem.html

http://www.varminter.com/particles/wt17.html

http://www.woodchuckden.com/

Remember, we are hunting in MI and almost never shoot at a dog over 300 yards....harly ever shoot at a dog over 200 yards for that matter and if you can't get them within 150 yards, you should probably take up another hobby. We're not in the praries of the Dakotas, so we don't need to be shooting at a dog in the next section. That being said, you don't need a hide busting .22-250, .243, 6mm, etc. Those guns are meant for prarie dogs, deer and antelope...not 30 lb coyotes....way overkill.

Go do some research for yourself and you'll see that most .17 Caliber Centerfires kill dogs DRT with minimal hide damage. You're gonna need a few fur strtchers too, so go to the F&T link at the top of the page and get yourself a few wooden stretchers, push pins, combs and brushes....and start making a few bucks off the dogs you shoot. Don't bother picking up any thread and needles, you won't need it with a .17 centerfire.

Good Luck!

P.S. Just to let you know, a .17 HMR is about the size of a .22 mag, give or take...other than the bullet. The .17 Rem is similar in size to the .223. It was actually based off of the .222 which was a necked down .223 case. Therefore, it's safe to say that the .17 Rem is based off the .223 case, just necked down and shoulder reduced to a .17 caliber. This should give people a better perspective of the case differences. The .17 Rem has very little recoil, but packs a powerful punch.

Also, keep an eye on the .17 Remington Fireball (FB) in the future too and do some research on it. It was introduced by Remington in 2007. It may be a pretty good round, but not much has been said about it. I'm wondering if it'll even stick around that long. I have a good feeling that Remington will drop it and start making .17 Rem's again....which they stopped in 2007. CZ and a few other small manufactuers still make the .17 Rem. A lot of guys are rebarreling their guns to a .17 Rem now which costs about $175-$350...so there are options out there. Many guys have had the same gun for over 30 years, they just rebarrel them after about 4,000 rounds. SuperSeal on here could give more info about that and hopefully he'll post some pics. Oh, and some are even building a .17 Rem on a AR-15 platform too. A lot of guys out west are going this route.

[yotehead]

I cannot agree with you more. I LOVE MY 17rem

[oaks]

I've watched yotes get up and leave from misplaced shots from a .223 and .220 swift. Nobody can make the perfect shot every time. Keep using the .17and you will leave wounded ones in the woods. I consider it under gunning but you know , opinions and a-holes. Goodluck and good hunting.
Oaks:

[WMUAngler]

Thanks for the post. I honestly assumed the people talking about using .17's were talking about the .17 hmr. The .17 Rem looks like a nice, flat shooting rifle round.

[Skinner 2]

[quote=uptracker;2540035]

Good Luck!

P.S. Just to let you know, The .17 Rem is similar in size to the .223. It was actually based off of the .222 which was a necked down .223 case. Therefore, it's safe to say that the .17 Rem is based off the .223 case, just necked down and shoulder reduced to a .17 caliber. This should give people a better perspective of the case differences. The .17 Rem has very little recoil, but packs a powerful punch.
quote]

Actually the .17rem is based on a 222 magnum necked down to .17. The 222 Mag has just a tad more space in the casing vs the .223. The 222 mag however died out after the .223 was used as the new military round,

Great round reguardless for coyotes Tiny hole in nothing out. Just hit solid not graze.

Skinner

[Skinner 2]

I've watched yotes get up and leave from misplaced shots from a .223 and .220 swift. Nobody can make the perfect shot every time. Keep using the .17and you will leave wounded ones in the woods. I consider it under gunning but you know , opinions and a-holes. Goodluck and good hunting.
Oaks:


The .17 Rem has been a controversial round for a long time with coyote hunters. It a love hate thing with them.

I have seen coyotes run a long way after being hit with a .243. So should we use larger guns then that. The .17 will do it job when placed right as will other rounds. Far as leaving one it the woods that will happen with just about everything you hunt with if a bad shot is placed.

That said I use my 204 a lot more then my .223 and my hunting partner uses a .204 over his 243 now. If I had a .17 I would use it too. I always wanted one. I may have a .17 K-hornet in the future if I want to rework my Ruger M77/22 Hornet. I bet this would be a fun gun.
Skinner

[cheeseandquackers]

If you aint Dead Eye Dick a 17 hmr is undergunning.

[uptracker]

Actually the .17rem is based on a 222 magnum necked down to .17. The 222 Mag has just a tad more space in the casing vs the .223. The 222 mag however died out after the .223 was used as the new military round,

Great round reguardless for coyotes Tiny hole in nothing out. Just hit solid not graze.

Skinner

Skinner, I've had this conversation a million times and my last comment always is.....We're both right!

Here's a quote from one of the links:

In 1971 Remington changed the entire 17 caliber world by offering factory [17 Rem] rifles, ammunition, brass, and bullets to those shooters who were so inclined. [Editor's Note: In 1971 Remington introduced the factory 17 Remington cartridge. Officially a .223 Remington necked down to 17 caliber, it was, in fact, much closer to the 17-222 wildcat in dimensions and case capacity.] Things finally began to look promising for the future of one of the most controversial calibers in firearms history, but it took another thirty-two years before the general shooting public accepted the 17 as a legitimate varmint buster and not just a whimsical pellet gun shooting jacketed hollow-point bullets. Of course, I’m referring to the interval between the 17 Remington and the 17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (HMR). It seems as though handloading is becoming passé.

[YoteSlammer]

The thing is you just don't see big time dog hunters stepping up w/ a .17

You can and will kill dogs, but honestly yer under gunned. Its a g-hog, crow/squirrel gun.

Its a fine weapon for the once and a while dog educator.

Not for the serious dog killer.

[Skinner 2]

The thing is you just don't see big time dog hunters stepping up w/ a .17

You can and will kill dogs, but honestly yer under gunned. Its a g-hog, crow/squirrel gun.

Its a fine weapon for the once and a while dog educator.

Not for the serious dog killer.
You must ahve never went to the Coyote God's website. According tot hem the only gun to use is a .17 Remington.

Like I said people love em or they them but they work. I don't care what you use but hunt coyotes long enough and you will have them get up and run after being hit with .30cals. Shot placement is the biggest issue to me.

Skinner

[uptracker]

The thing is you just don't see big time dog hunters stepping up w/ a .17

You can and will kill dogs, but honestly yer under gunned. Its a g-hog, crow/squirrel gun.

Its a fine weapon for the once and a while dog educator.

Not for the serious dog killer.

Again.....

Look at the video here....17 dogs with a .17 Predator: http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20...he%20Field.htm (http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20...he%20Field.htm)

Go to a few different forums and see how many guys are putting a .17 Rem on an AR platform. There's a reason behind it.

[Rustyaxecamp]

The thing is you just don't see big time dog hunters stepping up w/ a .17

You can and will kill dogs, but honestly yer under gunned. Its a g-hog, crow/squirrel gun.

Its a fine weapon for the once and a while dog educator.

Not for the serious dog killer.

PO Ackley sure did ok with the .17 cal back in the day.....;)

[Skinner 2]

Personal preferance. Love it or leave it is how the .17 (centerfires) are taken. Not much fence riding for it.

Skinner

[YoteSlammer]

If were plugging other web-sites, I chat mainly over on the PM.

This debate has gone on and on. Hate is a awfully powerful word to use in the realm of what one may consider to be an ethical choice of fire power for a given objective.

Guys are using high powered air-rifles to hunt a variety of big game(k-9's included). Dont matter to me.

If you feel comfortable using that cal. so be it.

I'm headed to Globe, AZ for the annual PM hunt on Thursday, many of what is considered to be the top MODERN callers will be in attendance.
I'll chat w/ the boys and see whose packin a .17 ;) :lol:

I grew up in Fenton and can see using a .17 for the wooded 75yd shot.
I would not feel comfortable attempting a 200+yd shot w/ that light bullet in and kind of in-climate conditions.

But hey, if it works for you then have at it.

[YoteSlammer]

As for 17 dogs... I can do that too...

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/023-1.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/021.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/012.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/007.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/009.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/IMG_1220.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn167/elpasojon/IMG_1250.jpg

I could keep this up all day!!!:D
Called by me and .223ed!!!

[uptracker]

That last picture is a perfect example of why to use a .17 Rem

[YoteSlammer]

That last picture is a perfect example of why to use a .17 Rem


Not from the ranchers stand point, he wants DRT's and proof you can do the job. Before your welcome to hunt his land again.

let him know your missing dogs and see where that gets ya.

A quarter sized exit hole on one of what very well may be a triple digit season is hardly a reason to down grade ones fire power.

Exit holes can be stitched in 10mins.

[Skinner 2]

Not from the ranchers stand point, he wants DRT's and proof you can do the job. Before your welcome to hunt his land again.

let him know your missing dogs and see where that gets ya.

A quarter sized exit hole on one of what very well may be a triple digit season is hardly a reason to down grade ones fire power.

Exit holes can be stitched in 10mins.

Who said anybody was missing? Show up here with a AR type asking permission to hunt with will get a big no from the land owner.

Like I have been saying the .17 Rem (and others) is a love hate relationship. Your welcome to have an opinion but flat saying they are no good and nobody should ever use them and pushing this on people is just a little strong.

You like a .223 and shotgun So be it Use them with confidence. I'm not telling you to use the .17 Rem either. In good hands the .17's will put down the coyotes.

In good hands with any caliber some coyotes will make an escape!

Skinner.

[Skinner 2]

Made a new posyt because many may have already check the last comment.

Another big factor is what is being shot from the .17. factory load or hand load. Hand loaded there are a lot of differant bullets a person can be using. I also thinkin hind sight the majority using the .17Rem for coyotes are hand loaders.

Skinner

[uptracker]

Yup....ever try the 30 gr Gold's Skinner?

[oldracerguy]

Again.....

Look at the video here....17 dogs with a .17 Predator: http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20...he%20Field.htm (http://www.rmvh.com/17%20Predator%20...he%20Field.htm)

Go to a few different forums and see how many guys are putting a .17 Rem on an AR platform. There's a reason behind it.
There is a huge following for the .17 Remington. The logic to use them in Michigan is the perfect shooting, low recoil, predator killing caliber. You have to watch the video, that's not an opinion, it is what works.

Also check out: http://www.jamescalhoon.com/features.php
I just had a Remington Model Seven rebarreled to the 19-223 Calhoon, and it is awesome!If you don't reload he sells finished ammo. What a fun gun. I have had .22-250's, .243's, etc. I am having more fun with the smaller calibers that are shooting extreme velocities. Big scopes and big bullets come from people reading too many articles and thinking more is better. That might be needed for shooting chucks at 500 yards. But for Michigan and calling yotes and fox, 200 to 300 yards is a long shot. Try a 17 Remington or have you favorite rifle rebarrelled to a 19-223 Calhoon and have some fun!

[uptracker]

Interesting O.R.G.!!!!!

I just found some stuff today on Blaine Eddy too...good stuff to look at. He shots an .17 too...out in UT and kills hundreds of yotes every year. He even has a video out. I guess there's no shooting in it, but a bunch of fur handling stuff and he raves about small calibers as fur guns:

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/blainevideo.html

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/blainefurupdate.html

http://blainesfurshack.tripod.com/

http://blainesfurshack.tripod.com/orderform2.htm

Here's another good .17 cal article...or two:

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/sweet17.html

600 yard .17 Rem gun: http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/corbinshell.html

[Skinner 2]

Yup....ever try the 30 gr Gold's Skinner?


No never tried them.

I like the idea of the Calhoon's. I ahve been shooting his buillets in my Hornet. If I ever need a new barrel on her it may become a .19 Hornet.

Skinner

[uptracker]

Those 30 gr. Gold's have a B.C. of .270 and are a boat tail bullet. Guys are turning their 250 yard yote gun into a 400 yard gun by switching to them. Some have claimed shots at woodchucks at over 500 yards with them...successfully!!!!

[uptracker]

Here ya go Skinner:

Woodchuck Den Premium Match Grade 17 Caliber Boat-Tail Bullets

Over twelve years ago, we introduced our very first 17 caliber Woodchuck Den premium match grade boat-tail bullet with our 25-grain .050 long boat-tail design. After the first run of bullets, we tested
them out to 400 yards with amazing accuracy, and we hunted varmints with outstanding results. We soon added 21, 23, and 29-grain bullets with .050 long boat-tails as well.
Then we introduced our fantastic Gold line of boat-tails with a boat-tail length of .100 long. We
started with a 27 grain with a B.C. of .243 and then added the finest ultra high B.C. seventeen bullet in the industry with our 30-grain Gold. This bullet with its amazing B.C. of .270 soon proved to be one of the finest seventeen bullets for fox, coyotes, and wolves. It also is used for long-range summertime varmint hunting on woodchucks and prairie dogs when trying for those long 400 to 600 yard shots. Finally yet importantly, we added our newest a 25-grain Gold bullet to our lineup. This bullet is justabout all streamlined ogive and boat-tail, which raises the B.C. to .225! You need a very short chamber leade for this new 25 grain Gold bullet but it can turn a 17 Ackley Bee or 17 Mach IV into a sizzling long-range performers.
Using premium high B.C. match grade 17 caliber bullets coupled withvery high ballistic coefficients can
easily make the 17 calibers outperform the 22 and 6mm calibers in bullet drop and wind drift while doing it with substantially less recoil and noise! Talk about fun seeing a large old woodchuck get slammed over 400 yards away with a 30 grain Gold bullet on impact. There is also nothing like seeing a big coyote be totally upended and dead on arrival at long range when the 30-grain Gold strikes!
The entire 17 caliber Woodchuck Den line of bullets are handmade one at a time in the finest carbide dies in the industry and we use only premium J-4 jackets.
Woodchuck Den 17Caliber Match Grade Boat-Tail Bullets
- 21 grain (.050 boat-tail) B.C. .160
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- 29 grain (.050) boat-tail) B.C. .240 1/9 or 1/10 twist
- 25 grain Gold (.100 boat-tail) B.C. .225 1/9 twist or 1/10
- 27 grain Gold (.100 boat-tail) B.C. .243 1/9 twist only!
- 30 Grain Gold (.100) boat-tail) B.C. .270 1/9 twist only!

To simplify the barrel twist rate
on all The Woodchuck Den bullets, we recommend a 1/9 twist for all of the bullets from the 21 grain to the 30 grain Gold. If you are putting on a new barrel, I would choose a 1/9 twist for any 17 caliber today! You never know when you may want to try the 27 or 30 grain Gold bullets and the 1/9 twist will work very well with the lighter 21 to 25 grain bullets as well. The 1/9 twist also adds more RPM’s to the tiny bullets which helps increase killing power.
I also recommend having your gunsmith check the chamber leade on his 17-caliber finish reamers
because most of the reamers out there have excessively too long of throats to accommodate today’s streamlined bullets. You can make up a dummy round with the 17 caliber Woodchuck Den bullets seated where you would like them and have him check his finish reamer.
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They are about $50 for 200.

http://www.woodchuckden.com/17cal_boat_tail.aspx

[Skinner 2]

Thanks!

Now if you could only use them on coyotes:evil::evil::evil:.

Like I have said, Love em or hate them.

Skinner

[uptracker]

Why couldn't you use them on coyotes? Seems like everyone is now.

[Skinner 2]

Why couldn't you use them on coyotes? Seems like everyone is now.

LOL (read with sarcasm) You can't use them because somebody will not like them.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Me I feel one should use them!:D

Skinner

[uptracker]

Got ya...

[s&w22aellafrits]

So.. .17 hmr isnt good for redfox or smaller predators?