Is the time right to ban baiting?

[Barry]

Things go through cycles and it seems the deer baiting thing is near it's end with all the concern about TB and Whirling disease.

I'm not a baiter and would like to see it gone but that's only my personal opinion. This year one camp in my area (W.UP) put a bait at the end of every logging road to keep hunters away. They had three guys and at least 15 baits out by my count.

What does everyone think - should baiting be illegal?

[TrailFndr]

Baiting , IF Done according to the DNR Guidebook, will not significantly affect the deer herd one way or the other.

If I read the book correctly, you are only allowed 2 gallons a day and it must be spread in a 10x10 ft area, Baiting will become more of a hassle for most hunters than it is a save all.

Its alot of extra work for most to walk out each day and spread 2 gallons, ( about 10 lbs of shelled corn) They will find that it interfers more as it disturbs the area way too much to go out every day.

I have used bait, and I have hunted without. I took 2 gallons out when I went to my stand a few times this year, but overall, It would not really have mattered one way or the other. I still didn't get a good shot LOL

If you see someone putting out more than is allowed, perhaps the local CO shopuld be informed. If we as Outdoorsman do not help to police ourselves, then sooner or later, we WILL lose some of the rights and privledges that we currently enjoy. It will become a simple matter of time.

I frankly do not see the baiting issue going away as it adds so much money to the local economies, Selling of bait has become a big bussiness over the years, It will be difficult to take that away.

[jamie7117]

there is more abuse than legal use, cut it off now before the tumor gets cancerous.

[marty]

Baiting ban would be a joke. Here in the TB zone they sure sell enough of it. Let people bait on private with spin feeders. Some guys even put a bunch of round bales in the place for the deer to munch on........marty:D

[Ruttin' Buck]

Trailfndr hit it right on the head when he mentioned money. It is all about the money. The baiting industry brings in alot of revenue. As long as somebodies pockets are getting filled they will lobby against it and they will ride the fence and maintain the restriction so that both sides are appeased.

I have hunted and taken deer both with and without bait. I really don't want to see it banned and like the restrictions but they have a hard time enforcing it.

I will say this. I've been hunting since i was twelve (1982) with my father and he had me in the treestand with him at ten and eleven. We hunted Roscommon public land until i was around 18. We did not bait. I spent a lot of time in the stand as a youngin' watching the trees grow. I mean, i learned alot from dad, reading sign, funnels, ridges, oak flats, blah, blah, blah, but truly, a 12 year old just wants to see deer.

When my nephew turned twelve i didn't hesitate to put him over some beets. He saw some deer which piqued his interest and gave him a feeling of success, all the while i made sure to pass on the knowledge my father shared with me to ensure he doesn't become a 'lazy' hunter.

[dieseldude]

i agree with the restriction they have now, but as mentioned who puts out 2 gallons? beets carrots and corn all come on 50 80 or 100 lb. bags. everyone and there brother is stacking 2 or 3 bags in there truck for the weekend. sunday morning they refresh the "piles" for the weekdays hoping they still have a liitle left for fri night or sat morn hunt.

i stopped buying bait 2 years ago, i got to feeling like it was a crutch, like i depended on it, i personally felt silly, almost like i was becoming handicap in a way.

i actually have been seeing more deer the past 2 seasons, and i believe its because there is nothing foreign around me when the deer a moving down runs. i noticed that when there is bait down the deer are 100 times more alert, its actually harder to poke them over bait. like i said, hunting is much more like hunting the past 2 seasons for me anyways....

deer feed is big business in michigan , ever been through almont and seen all the carrot fields? they run for miles and miles

[slowpoke]

I was wondering if anyone has been fine for baiting out of the T.B. zone and how much was the fine.

[marty]

I heard 50. Hey some of those big hunt clubs could run a tab with the DNR. Then at the end of the season they could send it all in at once to the courts. Maybe they could accept credit cards and call it in by phone :D :p :) ;) :cool: .........marty:D

[Pinefarm]

It has to be a statewide ban. Some prosecutor's in the TB area even publically said they would not pursue a baiting case because it violates the "equal protection under the law" statute. Meaning, some counties can't have more restrictive rules without the entire state having them. Plus, unless it's a statewide ban, no small town prosecutor is going to walk into the local coffee shop after having fined a bunch of locals for a law that the locals feel is punishing only them. No small town prosecutor is going to "fine" him or herself out of a job because of the present wording/conditions of the rule. I think that if it was a statewide ban, i.e, equal protection, you'll see more enforcement.

[BEAGLEMAN]

No I don't think it should be banned.
I don't bait much anymore but I don't believe it causes all the problems that many people attribute to it.
INMHO.

[mrarcher62]

Baiting ~~yeah!!
Dont we hunt to put food on the table?? Not hunt over the table to shoot food?? What happend to good ol" scouting, learning how the deer move, and where they will be when we hope to get that special moment of them offering us a shot~~I have known so called hunters who put out a whole truck load of apples or sugar beats a couple of weeks before season then go out and watch the pile waiting for the deer to come feed and call it hunting ?????? i thought hunting was the pursuit of wild game as they interacted with their natural habitat!!! also would you call they guy who plants 2-3 acres of quality deer feed a baiter ????? i dont see the difference
I dont call putting food out to attract game hunting, I call it cheating, and killing, but not hunting!!! but then again thats just my opinion :eek:

[jamie7117]

what about those damn farmers who plant all that corn, that i'm sure you hunt over in calhoun co.?

"bait" means a substance composed of grains, minerals, salt, fruits, vegetables, hay, or any other food materials, whether natural or manufactured, which may lure, entice or attract deer. "Bait" does not include the establishment and maintenance of plantings for wildlife, foods found scattered solely as the result of normal agricultural planting or harvesting practices, foods available to deer through normal agricultural practices of livestock feeding if the area is occupied by livestock actively consuming the feed on a daily basis, or standing farm crops under normal agricultural practices. For the purposes of this section, "baiting" means to place, deposit, tend, distribute, or scatter bait to aid in the taking of a deer.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363_10919_11748-31617--CI,00.html#

there is no comparision between food plots, apple trees, ponds, deer runs and a pile of bait. nothing concentrates deer activity and contact like bait.

[Swamp Monster]

mrarcher, be careful not to place your stand next to a nice group of white oaks....they might accidently drop some bait. lol! If you hunt any food source at all wether it be a corn field like jamie mentioned, an old apple orchard, or small alfalfa field, your hunting over bait. You know that the deer use this as a food source so you use it to your advantage.
There's a number of ways to manipulate deer into presenting a shot such as tweaking an old fence to make it easier for deer to cross where you want them to or placing obstructions like heavy brush in a trail to make the deer walk closer to your position. Baiting is just another form of this manipulation. Unfortunetly, its gets abused, even with restrictions. I have hunted both ways, though I prefer not baiting.

[mrarcher62]

agriculture???
For human consumption and acorns are all natural habitat, to be treated as so. Planting feed to solely feed deer is not
~~thank you~~
And to me holds no difference then baiting. It is just a ploy on words to justify it. What is the difference of droping a truck load of food and hunting over it, to solely attract deer. Or to plant an acre or 2 of feed to solely attract deer and hunt over it??? If you read my post you will see i said natural habitat!!! Which last i checked acorns were part of, and farmers have been planting for years with the intention of feeding humans and livestock not deer. Most farmers i know dont plant their corn to feed the wild life it's just an unfortunate aspect of farming but still the crop is planted to feed humans not to solely attract deer. my question was stated to address the practice of planting food for the sole purpose of attracting deer. and then hunting over it

[mrarcher62]

BY the way i hunt oak groves and swamp not corn besides most of that is harvested by gun seaseon in my area

[Rencoho]

I hunt using both methods, I don't use bait for gun season, however I do put bait out during bow season, Why?, because its legal and its what I choose to do. So, if you don't want to use bait, FINE, just don't tell me my chosen method is not hunting. I'll decide for myself if its hunting or not.

[Brian S]

There is a huge difference between bait piles, food plots and white oaks.

That oak tree has probably been there for well over twenty years. Everyone who hunts that area has the opportunity to find it, recognise it as a food source, and hunt it accordingly.

Food plots are similar, they don't pop up overnight.

Bait piles do.

Its a real pain in the ***** when you scout and hunt an area, start to get the deer movements down, and then some guy starts droping a pile of bait and ends up completely altering the deer movements. Now my hunt is screwed up because this hunter wants to change the playing field and bring the deer to him rather than find the deer.

[jamie7117]

true baiting is dragging any amount of corn,carrots, beets etc. into the woods in the hopes of attracting deer into a predetermined, exact spot.

i don't know about anyone else but my food plots have multiple runways leading to and from them, hence many avenues and exits and more than a few places of undetermined stops. not a one way ticket to the feed trough.

my food plots feed a hell of a lot of other animals, all year long. it benefits every single animal in the area, not just a target species.

[jamie7117]

enter the "hunters" who would buy "bait" not by the truckload but by the semi-load. SEMI-LOADS of "bait" piled sky high in the woods, left to sit in the woods after deer season thereby becoming a source of temporary supplemental feed, leading to a deer herd held over carrying capacity by less than nutrious feed, leading to a herd of deer ripe for disease spread amplified by concentrated "food" sources.

ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL in the not so distant past.

do i care if you bait, absolutely not.

just don't cry about the possible abolishment of a hunting practice that has been so readily abused. if you can't play by the rules then take the game away, a zero tolerance policy towards baiting.

don't blame other hunters that choose not to bait and voice their concerns about the practice, we have nobody to blame but ourselves for letting the practice of baiting get so out of hand.

baiting should be used as an aid for harvesting deer not as a stand alone hunting method.

750,000 gun hunters, lets say 50% bait with their 2 gallon limit that puts out 700,000 gallons of bait per day and adds up to 10,500,000 gallons of bait for the 15 day firearms season, throw in bow hunters that bait and add in another 10,000,000 gallons enough food to support the entire state's deer herd.

it has been argued that a 2 gallon bait limit will reduce disease spread, a Michigan State University study completed in 2001 refutes this claim (Garner, Mark S. 2001. Movement patterns and behaviour at winter feeding and fall baiting stations in a population of white-tailed deer infected with bovine tuberculosis in the northeastern lower peninsula of Michigan. Michigan State University PhD Dissertation). The study was conducted to observe deer interaction at fall baiting sites to determine how bovine TB could spread between deer. The researchers observed deer feeding at various types of baiting sites for 2 years. These sites consisted of bait placed in piles up to several tons in size, various quantities of bait spread in lines, and several types of mechanical feeders. They found that the number of deer face-to-face contacts that could spread bovine TB were higher at a 5 gallon pile of corn than any other baiting method. They also noted that up to 35 different deer were observed feeding at a single 5 gallon bait pile during a 1 hour observation period. It should also be noted that a USDA study determined that the bacteria causing bovine TB can remain infectious up to 16 weeks on frozen feed (Whipple and Palmer. 2000. Survival of Mycobacterium bovis on feeds. Conference on Bovine Tuberculosis, Proc. 2000. Lansing, Michigan). Thus the conclusion from this extensive study is that any amount of bait can be expected to sustain and spread a disease like bovine TB, but that smaller quantities tended to be worse.The MSU study also included radio collaring 163 deer to study movement and seasonal dispersal patterns when baited. These deer migrated an average of 15 miles with some deer migrating over 53 miles. It seems that even when baited deer will migrate substantial distances. During the 2-year study it was also found that one of the radio-collared deer had actually died from bovine TB.

It has been suggested that supplemental food plots are nothing more than "bait on a stick." Researchers have shown that food plots do not present the disease potential of bait piles. Food plots are dispersed over a much larger area than bait piles, and once they are consumed there is no more. The principle problem cited with baiting sites is they can be replenished over and over in the same location that increases the potential for contaminating residual foods and underlying soil. The Michigan DNR even recommended food plots in the TB area.


Every single MDNR wildlife biologist is opposed to deer baiting based on ecological and disease considerations. That in itself says a lot. These wildlife biologists are dedicated and hard working individuals. They care as much, if not more, about the deer herd than anyone else. Certainly they are the experts on what’s right for the resource. Furthermore, the Wildlife Management Institute, an advocate for hunting and professional wildlife management, denounces all wildlife feeding

It is commonly cited that surveys indicate that support for or against deer baiting in the hunting community is split 50/50. It should be pointed out that none of these surveys were extensive enough to be statistically valid, and thus a true representation of hunter opinion was not gauged. In any event, even if the split is truly 50/50, we should do what’s best for the resource and the sport.

Throughout history rules and regulations have been enacted to protect and enhance deer hunting. Take hunting deer at night as an example. At some point this was thought detrimental to the resource and banned. Sure, at the time there were likely protests, but I don’t think anyone today would argue that this was necessary. Very often the best resource management is not achieved by popular consensus. The harvest of antlerless deer is another example. It took leadership, even that of Aldo Leopold himself, to institute many of these necessary practices. Deer baiting is another issue that needs to be evaluated under these same circumstances. As it has been pointed out there are many reasons why deer baiting is detrimental to both the resource and the sport. There is very little positive information on deer baiting. And as stated in the beginning this was not from a lack of effort. The desire for many to hunt with bait must be strong to override the underlying conservation morals possessed by many hunters otherwise deer baiting would not be an issue.

The evidence that deer baiting causes the spread of diseases is well documented (McCaffery 2000, Mich. DNR 1999). It is also well known that baiting causes hunter conflicts and that the non-hunting public’s view of baiting is not favorable. In addition it
appears baiting also has the following affects:


Despite the overwhelming perception there is no evidence that deer baiting increases the overall success rate.


Baiting provides a concentrated source of food thus reducing deer activity. This causes deer to be less vulnerable to hunter harvest which will lower the success rate as it does for other factors, like the weather. Baiting also causes hunters to see less
deer and can explain why so many deer hunters question the MDNR deer population estimates.


High carbohydrate foods used as bait are known to have harmful effects on deer health under certain circumstances due to lactic acidosis, which also contributes to reduced deer activity.


The level of baiting in Michigan has likely increased to the point where the amount of bait provided will completely feed the entire deer herd every day of the gun hunting season.


The cumulative effects of baiting (and feeding) deer are changing natural deer productivity and survival rates to unmanageable levels. This is especially true in the northern forested regions.


Deer baiting is not as innocuous as some claim. Deer baiting affects the hunting experiences of all hunters, and is increasingly disruptive to hunters who choose not to bait.

It may seem counter intuitive, but eliminating baiting for deer hunting would result in more deer sightings and increase the deer harvest which can ultimately help in controlling the deer population. It would also reduce conflicts among hunters, help prevent the spread of diseases and improve the public perception of hunting.

paraphrases of
Deer Baiting Issues
Mark A. Toso
February 18, 2002



for someone to compare "baiting" to farm crops, food plots, natural browse, a doe-in-heat, using a grunt tube, or hunting during the rut is absolutely preposterous.

you want to see the science that frames our hunting regulations, i want to see the poll that shows

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the majority of Michigan's deer hunter's hunt using bait and support the practice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


lets practice what we preach.

i'm not pointing fingers just looking for a potential solution and pointing out some overlooked facts.

[mechanical head]

Not pointing fingers ? “you have nobody to blame but yourselves for letting the practice of baiting get so out of hand”.

I would say everybody- not just joeblow 2 gallon bait pile boy, he doesn’t have anymore to do with the outta hand baiting situation than you jamie. As matter of fact he’s most likely even more upset, because his method of hunting is going to made illegal soon because of the slob baiters.


It’s a crime to see everyone punished for a few outta control slob bait hunters that continue to bait by the truck load, or by the ton.

I’d say in the long run we’d be better off just making it illegal, but it not the guys fault carrying out 2 gallons every day or other day for recreational hunting.

[Rencoho]

Good point mechanical head, and do we really think that by outlawing baiting, that those indidviduals that are now placing truckloads of bait in the woods, ( in defiance of the current laws are gonna stop)! Hell no, it will only make them more effective, and sadly more prevalent, in my opinion.

[Pinefarm]

Rencoho, I respectfully disagree. Although I see your point. But if baiting is banned outright, statewide, I think you'll see a substantial difference. It will be like guys trying to shine during November. Everyone will know what they are up to. How are they going to drive down the road with a pick up full illegal bait? If they stop at the gas station or restaurant with the truck load of illegal bait, how many guys will it take walking up to their truck and writing down their truck tag number before they get nervous? After a CO sits on the highway and pulls over everyone with illegal bait , how many other guys will get nervous? After all the camps that don't poach with illegal bait call the DNR about the ones that do poach with illegal bait, after seeing the poachers drive into their camps with illegal bait, how many will get nervous and stop? I can tell you that anyone around me is going to have to sneek the illegal material in under the cover of darkness and under a tarp. It's like the war on terrorism. They still may be out there, but their freedom of movement will be severely hampered.

[Rencoho]

I agree with you Bob, but you know the old saying, where there's a will there's a way. And poachers will nearly always find a way. Operating outside the law is nothing new to them. You know its really not about the baiting for me, its about having the choice. If they ban baiting so be it, but thats one less choice I have. ( to use bait or not). Whatever your choice Good Hunting everyone!!

[Swamp Monster]

Until they make it illegal to sell at every corner store, baiting will continue regardless of the law. It will stop the honest folks, yes, but our DNR does not have the manpower to control it. They could, or would have to dedicate an enormous amount of time to the complaints. It won't really matter to me either way.

[Pinefarm]

In reality, I think it's a non-issue. It's been blown out of proportion. My last post was a little tongue in cheek. I think most hunters want to obey the law. And will obey the law. If 10% of the guys still bait after a statewide ban, then so be it. It's better than 75% doing it. Like shooting button bucks. If we stop the vast majority from doing it, we're winning the game. Don't forget, the only way baiting is going to be banned is if we get CWD in the state or within 50 miles of our border. If, or when, that happens you will find that a lot of people's attitudes about bringing deer into a tiny area for nose to nose contact will change fast. Once hunters in one county see that the herd will have to be eradicated three counties over because of CWD and bait, nobody is going to feel like spreading that disease any further. All you have to do is look at what smokers could do 10 years ago and what little smokers can do today. Baiting and smoking are about the same thing. And the people defending smoking and baiting usually use the same arguments. Person choice, too much money to be made from it to ban it, etc. But just as with second hand smoke, baiting effects us all. Guess you'd call it the second hand bait effect. If you don't know what I'm talking about, in bow season, try patterning or trail hunting when all your neighbors bait. It can be difficult. It makes you want to go buy carrots and join the club because the deer walk to and from bait, and only right at dark.

[jamie7117]

bad use of english, changed it to "we" and "ourselves"

my bad

[EdB]

The time is right, ban baiting now. It will get harder every year it continues.

[Ruttin' Buck]

Mrarcher,

Dude...you're way off base and like i stated before, i have shot deer over bait and not and am offended that you would say that i cheated. I wonder if mr. holier-than-thou has ever tried to pattern a buck on the hard and over hunted public lands in northern michigan. No wait, you hunt the swamps around the agricultural fields in perhaps the number one deer county in michigan...whoa! thats some tough scoutin' bro'. I bet their are some real tough funnels and sign to recognize there, not to mention an astronomical deer to square mile ratio. I have a real good friend with a place in marshall. There is no comparison to hunting my cabin upnorth. He sits out for an evening and comes in saying..."oh saw 26 but no shooters, biggest was a six-point."

I hate to come on strong but you deserve it. I don't fear the antis because they have made up their mind already, i fear the one sitting on the fence and if statements like you make about someone that "cheats" by taking a deer within legal means only provides ammunition and may cause that person to make the wrong impression.

What next. No dog hunting. Is treeing a bear cheating? Well then i guess that would make bird hunting with a dog cheating. It can snowball. You hurt us all...

[Danatodd99]

That in itself is a problem ... patterning deer.
I drive 2 hours up north to hunt, I pattern the deer and then just when I get them figured out, the guys that are baiting start putting out their "allotments" and totally change the deer patterns.
Now, I have just wasted many hours of my hard work trying to pattern them, and then someone that is well within the law, totally changes the pattern of the deer within a weeks time.
I just wasted all that hard work for what ?
I may as well not even bother to pattern them, this has happened to me 3 years in a row now.
I do not hunt over bait, and never will.
It makes me mad that in 1 week all that work that I did is out the window.
Their patterning is not the same the rest of the season.
If they limit baiting, then limit it to Gun season only.
Give us hunters that don't bait a chance before changing their habits.
Baiting will probably not be banned, but restricted.
Maybe even more than it is now.

[Eastern Yooper]

~YAWN~

[Danatodd99]

EY .....LOL ..... are we boring you ?

[mrarcher62]

Mr Ruttin' Buck
wow!! quite the assumption!! gee lets see i grew up in Benzie county, hunted state land all my life, and really enjoyed squirrel and pat hunting, why?? because it gave me a real good start on patterning the deer for the up comming gun hunt. I have lived in calhoun county for a mere 5 years and must say due to the lack of state land here that my hunting has been quite a dissapointment. What little state land that is available to hunt is so overcrowded i dont even try, the only time i did i felt like linus in the pumpkin patch waiting for the great pumpkin and promptly left. As far as patterning deer on state land it isnt impossible to do!! sure their movements change as hunters invade the woods but if you learn the escape routes there, you are sitting right where they are running. What is impossible is trying to pattern the deer and learning their routes, when after all your hard work someone comes into the woods drops a temporary pile of food large enough to feed the whole forest and radically changes all their patterns. {so much for the 2-3 months of watching and learning the deer} Why?? because someone who thinks just because its lawfull to give the deer a" temporary food fix" so they dont have to learn the deer and their movements, just droped their legal alotment of bait a week before season and ploped their butts infront of it to wait for a deer to come {now thats hunting} so because its legal, does it mean its ethical?? i dont think so. It is proven that baiting has very little benifit to the deer at all. it is actually detrimental to the deers health in a variety of ways including contagious disease. {which threatens the whole deer herd throughout the state} no matter how big the bait pile is. So lets keep baiting them, let them all get diseased and die off, then who will listen to you whine when you have no deer to hunt?? there is enough natural food and agriculture even up north that their really is no need to bait i say get off your butt learn the deer and hunt the natural foods why jepordize the health of our deer herd because its legal to do so makes absolutly no sense to me and im concerned that you would jepordize the very sport you love just because it is your right to do so. baiting benifits only humans not deer:eek:

[dieseldude]

:eek:

i cant wait to hear this one ruttin' buck!

[Polkahero]

Comparing baiting to smoking? That was brilliant!:cool: I'm trying to figure out what disease I'm coming down with; Carrot Cancer?

But, until it get banned: If you can't beat them, join them.:mad:

[stelmon]

Originally posted by jamie7117
ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL in the not so distant past.

do i care if you bait, absolutely not.

Wow, we agree on something Jaime. Maybe your not a bad guy after all;) :)

Why can't everyone have this attitude? The great ole' bait debate. How many have we had of these this year? If they made baiting illegal, why not make food plots, fake scrapes, farms, scents, cane, hunting over food sources, grunts, rattling, hell, let's make hunting illegal to? If baiting should be, then they should be also.

I use to bait, but I don't anymore because all my bait was being eaten during the night. Also, my first year ever hunting, I went out and put bait where there were no tracks what so ever. If you don't put in time, your not going to get deer. Guess what, I did not see a thing. I have talked to several people over the years about there baiting techniques and what they told me make it sound like not an easy job. Going up north and putting bait out every week where there is deer is just another way to harvest a deer. With this said, I might try it this year.

You may complain, well, all those truckload of baiter ruined baiting and this is the reason why they should make it illegal. This is just like a fish debate, but with deer instead. Some people complain if you use bait for trout, they may swallow the hook and then die. So, your going to let the few people that don't know how to set the hook on a trout, ruin it for everyone. This was just like salmon snagging(even though I am against it). If it wasn't for the slobs out there, the people that snagged northern pike, steelies and brown trout, I bet ya, snagging would be legal to this day. Heck, then let's bring in gun control. If the gov't made guns illegal to own, only the criminals would have them and we would not beable to bear arms.

If baiting is made illagal, it looks to me as it is just another way for you to get YOUR deer. The hell with the rest of the michigan hunters that try there hardest every year to get a deer even with another technique besides yours. I wish everyone would respect each other ways of harvesting there deer.:mad:

my .02 cents

[KennR]

Baiting, what a subject.....

I used to bait back when I was young to hunting. I didnt just throw it out and wait for deer. My friend and I would scout out the best areas on the property we had to hunt and then put down some bait. As we viewed it, the bait gave us the extra time to "Pick our shots". We shot many small bucks(spikes - 8pnts), and does, but werent seeing the bigger bucks. I stopped using bait about 6 yrs ago and have also started letting the smaller bucks pass in hopes of waiting for a big one. I have only shot 2 shooters since I started this, and several does. I guess the message is that baiting does detour the bigger bucks from comming around, at least in my experiences.

I went to the UP for a week this year, and the guys I hunted with baited. They have shot some nice bucks, including a 14pnt scoring 160+. They claim the bucks follow in the does, or scent check their piles for does that are in heat. I hunted the first 2 days without bait, and saw several deer. However, due to swirling winds, a mature doe spooked both of those days as she got within 20yds of my tree. I put out some bait and moved to a ground position about 45yds from the bait. I must say I didnt see any bucks, but had a blast watching that doe and 2 fawns come in and feed.

In the thumb where I hunt a lot, we dont bait. There is so many crops around, that the deer really dont respond to baiting.


I guess Im not for or against baiting, as it has its good and bad points. I sure hope that the people that are wanting to ban it, arent the same people who will think nothing of putting on a worm to catch a fish.

As for doing your scouting and then having the deer disappear because of your neighbors baiting, I dont buy it. Not every deer in the county is going to run to your neighbors bait pile. How do you know this is why your not seeing as many deer? Have you trespassed to see his bait piles? Why not hunt the runs leading to his bait piles? Maybe the lack of deer sign is due more to your lack of hunting skills(hunt same stand every day, dont care what you smell like, or which way the wind is blowing, etc). I bet the real issue is you spent many days patterning the deer, and yet it only takes them 3 days or less to pattern you.

As pointed out many times in the past, we need to stop fighting amoungs ourselves. If you want to fight, take up some fight against the PITA, or some of the other anti hunting organizations. Quit giving them ammo to hurt our sport.

Kenn

[Brian S]

Kenn, no one is fighting here.

We're having a discussion.

But just keep telling us the problem lies in our lack of hunting skills and your sure to start some fighting.

[KennR]

Brian S, seems as though all the non baiters are pointing fingers telling the baiters they have no hunting skills, and or that baiting is not hunting. Im merely stating that maybe its not the baiting that is causing the non baiters to see less deer.

As stated earlier, Im not for or against the practice, just merely trying to point out my views and experiences from both sides.

I dont want anyone to take offense to my post. Just read it and hopefully get something other than mad from it.

Kenn

[The Mutt]

The law states that you can use no more than 2 gal. of bait at any one time spread over a 10' x 10' area NOT 2 gal. per day. This does not mean you can drop 14 gal. of bait on Sunday in the hopes some will still be there the following Saturday. Yet I continually see posts from guys talking about their "bait piles". I may not always be the sharpest knife in the drawer but to me 2 gal. spread over a 10' x 10' area DOES NOT constitute a "pile".

I'm willing to bet the amount of guys actually baiting LEGALLY is extremely low.

[Rencoho]

Well call call me guilty by association then, for the life of me I don't see how a couple coffee cans of corn spread out near my bow stand twice a week, is going to alter the movement of an entire herd of deer.

[Danatodd99]

Rencoho,
You baiting 2 coffee cans of corn, most likely are not going to alter the daily patterns of the deer.
The ones I am talking about are the guys that continually put out large amounts of bait on a regular basis.
I'm talking enough to feed many deer a day.
Then you get the guys that put out the legal amount daily in the same place even if it doesn't get hit nightly.
Msking this practice in this scenario is illegal, and will alter their patterns once they do find the "pile".
I feel that it also depends where you are hunting too.
These results are not the same everywhere.
I don't want them banning it altogether, but more regulations would be more beneficial. Then we get into the enforcement issue.
It's a "can't make everyone happy" issue.

Stelmon, you are getting a little radical aren't you?
what you are saying is that farmers should be punished for planting corn, beans, alfalfa ...... No, that's not true.
Guys that plant food plots for deer are fine, yes they do alter the pattern of deer, but not by the day. It is over a large period of time.

[KennR]

I think what Stelmon is getting at, and correct me Stelmon if Im wrong is that their really is no difference. If you hunt a farm with 50 acres of corn and I hunt state land 1/4 mile away, dont you think the majority of deer in that area would be drawn to the corn field? That in essence is a big bait pile. Is it fair that I cannot put out my own bait of much smaller portions? What if I had my own property and planted corn, then harvested it and put it out in piles of 2 gallons max? How about I take that same corn field and cut it down with a brush hog, then I have a pile that is 50 acres big, is that different, or legal for that matter? How about I plant 50 acres of carrots, then just plow them up and leave them in the field?

I hear complaints of the bait piles pulling deer from one area to another. As Stelmon has pointed out, calling, scent lures, does in heat, all do the same thing. It comes down to where you draw the line. If we stop baiting, then it only makes sense that theres another rule of not hunting closer than 500ft to any non-natural food source. This would include apple orchards, corn fields, etc. I dont like the sound of that, do you?

Kenn

[FixedBlade]

Barry. Whirling desease is not a deer related desease. So tell me how would not baiting deer help trout?

[Danatodd99]

Kenn and Stelmon,

That corn is or has been growing since spring, it is NOT going to drastically change deer patterns. If a month before gun season opens you start putting out large amopunts of bait it will most certainly change their habits.
Baiting is totally different than calling or using a sex attractant to get a deer to come in.

If I could have set up some kind of watering device where I hunt, I could have altered the patterns of many deer 30 or more.
You could see they were traveling great distances to the river for water. I wouldn't do that to the rest of the hunters there out of courtesy. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that everyone that baits is not courteous.
There is a hunt party that would bring in a trailer full of carrots and sugar beets and they severely altered the deers movements.
The piles were huge. Definitely not courteous, by any means.

[tubejig]

This is what I am getting from the baiting issue. A corn pile changes deer movements and a corn field doesn't? Instead of the 100 acre field being corn it is now a plowed field. I have never seen a deer hide in the middle of a mud pie, so to say
that a corn field does not change movements is crazy and over the years I can remember some saying to the effect of "corn fed deer". But I am sure that the deer don't change their movements over a large food source.:rolleyes:

[arrowdog]

I stopped using bait a couple of years ago. It was probably one of the best things I ever did. Since then I have become a much better hunter. I learned to sniff out good deer habitat instaed of setting up a buffet in the woods. When baiting I almost never saw any bucks, they we're all nocturnal, they knew the food would be there after dark and the hunters would not. Most of the deer I see now are at ease, not with their ears perked up as they are walking in toward the food pile. For me it has been a personal choice, but I wouldn't mind if it was banned.

[futa1]

This is why I think baiting should not be banned. Baiting if done rigth should not harm deer in any way. My Prefered method is two 50 lb bags of shelled corn a week starting in Sept. I spread it out over a 30-40 square yard area, and kick leaves over it. This way the deer will have to dig more and work for thier feed. THis bait pile will bring does and their yearlings in on a consistent basis through out the fall. You might even bring in a buck or two but usually not the big boys. The nice thing about a bait pile, is if you are sick of not seeing any deer you can go sit over your corn and maybe see a couple. Also bait piles are good for youth, who need to see some deer close up to get excited. The bait pile I made this year was used soley by my 13 year old brother who probably saw more deer then I did through out the season. Isn't that a good experince for him?

If you think I am a newbie for hunting over bait on occasion, plz remember I have shot two trophies with my bow and a couple with my gun. All my nice bucks have been shot out in the swamp with no bait, and hours of planned scouting. I just think a nice bait pile close to camp makes for a good "go to" spot to sit. You can put youth there to watch deer or visiters who don't have a good spot scouted.

[The Mutt]

futa1,

"My Prefered method is two 50 lb bags of shelled corn a week starting in Sept. I spread it out over a 30-40 square yard area, and kick leaves over it."

You are breaking the law. I don't care what your reasons are or how good a hunter you are with your trophy bucks you are BREAKING THE LAW. You also have jeapordized your little brother by allowing him to "hunt" your illegal bait.

Just what is it about 2 GALLONS that's so hard for people to grasp?

[foersterhunter]

This is really disturbing.Read the rule books guys.Page 19 2002 Guide.
:o volum of bait cannot exceed two gallons a dayat any hunting site
:eek: bait can only occur from 10/1-1/1
You know someone always has a bitch everyday in this world.And i for one am getting sick of this subject as a bitching subject.Ninty% of us grew up on baiting as an approved way of hunting till the restrictions came out cause of TB(by the way i thought if a county had one case of TB in had a ban on baiting what ever happen to the cases in antrim and mecosta).Now that i said that i was wondering some people say they scout.I scout too not only for deer but human signs too.How many people look for tree stands that where placed in an area before thety deside to hunt it.How much is the road your hunting on Driven down.Personally i don t want to be huggin the pumpkin 100 yrds over.Hell a 1/4 mile away is to close.Now lets face it in this State theres alot of state land if theres a bait pile(you don t Like)move get out and explore 3 ridges over then.Deer hunting is work get remote.Baiting is work if you can t handle it well then don t do it or get help from others if you chose that method.

[dieseldude]

hmm, jethro?, is it you?

[Danatodd99]

This is really disturbing.Read the rule books guys.Page 19 2002 Guide. volume of bait cannot exceed two gallons a day at any hunting site. bait can only occur from 10/1-1/1

You are correct on this ..... "I" would like to see "No baiting until 11/1 and end on 1/1.

I scout thoroughly, for all sign, not just deer.
I can hunt around other hunters, that doesn't really bother me.
I do not want to hunt near someone that is breaking the "LAW"
I will not be branded by association, per say.

[futa1]

I undertand I am breaking the law.

I am an educated sportsmen who holds regulations and ethics to at a high priority. And yes I have decided to break the rules in this case. I don't have a mountain of corn, carrots and beats rotting in a heap under my tree stand. I have one stand near my camp that has 50- 100 lbs of SPREAD out shelled corn that is a great spot for youth, senoirs and visitors to hunt and see deer. I don't attract deer from miles around, only does and yearlings that are in the area start visiting near dark to munch.

What is the difference between alot of corn spread out over a huge area, and a little dumped in a small pile? I would challenge and DNR officer to determine how much corn I have on theground. It is spread out over a VERY large area. In no way am I creating a breeding ground for desease with my spread out 50-100 lbs of corn a week bait pile. I don't think two kernals of shelled corn even touvh each other when I put corn out.

Here is a question....what is the difference between a big oak tree that drops acorns in piles under a tree and 50 lbs of corn spread out over a 40 square yard area? I think oak trees should be bannedm because they drop acorns in piles and thsi could spread TB.

I guess I admit I try and justify my rules breaking, if I get cought I will have to pay the consiquences.

I still think good bait pile, is a good hunting tool, for youth, seniors, or visitors who havn't scouted a spot yet.

[KennR]

Well futa1, Im not going to get on ya, cause we all have broken some law at one time. I can tell you the difference between the oak and your bait pile, its just that a law. Is there a better chance of spreading tb with your setup over an oak tree, most likely not. However, when the oaks drop in my neck of the woods, there arent 100lbs of them on the ground all at one time. The DNR is trying to cut down on baiting, or stock piling. The average guy only hunts on the weekend, so if he puts out 2 gallons on Sunday, that bait should be gone by Tuesday, and the deer are forced to either find another bait pile, or forage for themselves.

You could accomplish the same task(deer comming in on a regular basis)legaly by getting a drum spreader type feeder. This can be set to drop X amount of feed per day, which in tern will actually save you money on feed.

Laws are laws, and we should all do our best to stick to them.

To the others that are against baiting and want it banned, you will have the same problem that we would have if they banned guns. The law breakers would still carry guns, and the law breakers like futa1 would still bait. Granted there wouldnt be as many baiters if it were banned, but what if the guy next to your property continued to bait? You would have the same problem that you do now, only you wouldnt be able to legally bait to try to conteract his baiting.

The big ball continues to turn.............

Kenn

[The Mutt]

"what is the difference between a big oak tree that drops acorns in piles under a tree and 50 lbs of corn spread out over a 40 square yard area"

The difference is your little brother won't be ticketed for breaking the law if he hunts under the oak tree.

You're also teaching him it's OK to break the law if you don't like it. Hmmmm...maybe when he's 16 or 17 he'll decide that he doen't like not being able to shoot a doe with no doe permit. How about the guy that thinks it should be legal to hunt with a rifle in the shotgun only zone. Maybe you little brother will decide he doesn't like the "Hunter Orange" rule one day and not wear his Orange. If he gets shot who's fault will that be?

If you want to break the law and take your chances then go for it. heck the world is full of poachers. You may want to think twice about teaching your little brother it's OK to poach if you don't like the laws though.

[mechanical head]

My word putting out extra feed for deer doesn’t put him in the poaching category. Poaching deer is a felony, I’m sure over baiting is a misdemeanor.

Lets say he’s baiting in a bait line every day with 2 gallons of shelled corn spread out over 50 yards (a very lethal method). Two gallons of bait a day = 15 pounds times 7 days =105 pounds a week.

Theres no way of telling how much bait is left or gone from day to day, you have jays squirrels, deer, and other critters eating the corn.

Your putting this guy in the same category as a drunk driver compared to a guy who doesn’t wear a seat belt..If you drive 1 mile over the speed limit, or don’t use your turn signal, your breaking the law, don’t let your kids see that…

[Danatodd99]

Mechanical Head .... you are right.

But, fact remains that he is still breaking the law.

Both the drunk driver and the person not wearing their seat belts are both also breaking the law. It still doesn't make it right, and he sure shouldn't be a "role" model for that kid, that's for sure.

Mutt was correct about his statement that he is doing more harm than good teaching this kid "his" bad habits.

[mechanical head]

D99, I never said it was right, and he shoudn't do it, but don't categorize the guy as a poacher. Breaking the law yes, but a poacher thats a tad of an overboard.

[The Mutt]

Sorry Mechanicalhead but you're wrong.

Websters Dictionary states:

to take game or fish illegally, to take (game or fish) by illegal methods.

He's teaching his younger brother it's OK to do if you don't agree with the law. Also poaching is NOT a felony in the state of Michigan.

Where do you draw the line in the description of poaching? Would a guy shooting a deer in the shotgun zone with a rifle be poaching? How about a guy the sneaks on to private property and kills a deer? What about the guy that shoots a deer he doesn't have a license for so he uses his buddies tag? Are these guys poaching too? None of these acts are felonies either. There's a lot of people that think these things are OK to do.

If you break the law for the purpose of taking game then you are poaching. It really is that simple.

[mrarcher62]

Gentlemen!!!!
Please consult your hunting books!!!! it states and i quote
"The volume of bait at any hunting site cannot exceed two gallons" I dont believe this means you can put 2 gallons down "every day" or every time you go to your stand. It means you can only have up to 2 gallons of bait on the ground at any given time!!!! better look into it~~and breaking the law is breaking the law~~we cant bend it to fit our needs because we feel different then the law:eek:

[KennR]

Mrarcher62, that is my understanding as well. I have heard of a guy that the DNR took a bucket and filled it up with his bait, just to prove to the guy there was to much bait on the ground.

2 Gallons Max at any one time.

Kenn

[mrarcher62]

I agree KennR
in Northwest Michigan where i grew up the DNR would not think twice about doing that exact thing. and i think teaching kids and visitors to break the law in any way shape or form is wrong. and cant dissagree with that as being a form of poaching

[futa1]

You can bust my chops all you want, I have evaluated my position, my brother knows what he is doing, and we do it. For who ever said that acorns don't drop in the hundreds od pounds I would like to disagree. If you picked up EVERY acorn in a 40 -50 sqaure yard area (under a big old oak,) it would have to be some where in the 50-100 lbs range. I have never had more then 100 lbs of corn on the ground at one time, which isn't alot in my opinion. Plus the corn is always spread out over a large area. I really think a DNR officer with a bucket would have trouble filling a bucket with corn, because I spread it out over such a large area.

Now in my defense for those of you who are quick to jump on me, can you tell me you have never broke a rule in the rule book? Do you put your name, address, and phone number on portable tree stands on SGL? Most of the mineral/salt attractents sold at the Miejer hunting section are also violations, alot of those are sold each year.

I think it is funny how many of you are quick to judge me as a poacher, but when is reality I am a very ethical hunter who in my opinion has a positive influence on the sport.

I don't want to defend my self any further, but I don't want every one on this board thinking I am some hick poacher who just figured out how to use the internet. Yes every year I have a small illeagle bait pile at a stand some where near camp. Like I mentioned it is not a mountain of rotting carrots just spread out shelled corn refreshed every week end. The stand is used for new comers to camp, or youth hunters so they can see some deer. Am I such a unethical person for trying to ensure my little brother saw some deer, his first year hunting? What about the two friends who had never hunted before in thier lives, they both saw deer at my bait pile stand, maybe they will be more inlcined in the future to come back out and hunt.

I have never shot a deer over bait, yet every year I have a bait pile.

If you feel inclined to judge me then do so.

[futa1]

One more thing.... I am actaully very happy to see so many hunters hold regulations so high. I hope the percentage of law abiding hunters on this forum is a representation of the percentage of law abiding hunters out there in the MI woods.

[Danatodd99]

Well futa1
Let me tell you, a CO isn't going to waste his time putting your bait in a 2 gallon bucket to see if you have too much.
He's just plain and simple going to write you a ticket for it.

Teaching people, new, young or otherwise to hunt ovwer an illegal bait pile is NOT right.

How are you going to feel when they get a ticket for it?
How will you feel when they lose their hunting rights for a year because of it ?

Not worth it, trust me.

I know people that have hunted for 12 years and not gotten a deer. Killing a deer is the reward we get for all the hard work we put into the sport !
Otherwise they'd call it Deer killing and not deer hunting !

[futa1]

I guess that is the risk I take every time I do it. And like I mentioned above I am happy so many people on thsi board are law abiding hunters. As for teaching others...so now I am a poacher and a spreader of poaching ways???

Two rules I have ever broke in rule book, screw in climbers and a few to many gallons of corn.

Otherwise I stick to every regulation like the best of them. Why is it I don't believe that the ones judging me have NEVER broke a hunting regulation?

Do I get any credit for trying to introduce new comers to hunting?

Oh yeah I am just teaching them to break the law and be poacher just like me.

[Danatodd99]

Futa1, I don't consider you a poacher !

I am an educated sportsmen who holds regulations and ethics to at a high priority

Sorry, obviously, this is not the case.
If you were ethical and held the regulations as high priorities, you wouldn't be breaking them knowingly!

I would be happy to give you all the credit due if you weer doing so with the highest of "ethics"
Bringing them into the sport like you are in my opinion is wrong.

But if you say they know, then they will be just as ethical as you !

[The Mutt]

"But if you say they know, then they will be just as ethical as you !"

Yep. But only when it suits them.

[mrarcher62]

Well lets see
can i say i never broke any laws hunting!! No i cant~~ but once the ill of my ways had been pointed out to me, i tried everything in my way to correct the situation. and made damn sure i didnt do it again. Like everyone I learned from my mistake. My mistake?? you were right i didnt have my address on my tree stand i had my name but not my addy. Thank god the DNR officer who pointed it out for me was cool, and just made sure it was corrected the next time he seen me. When we twist the law to fit our needs, and justify it any way we deem reasonable. We not only jepordize the ones who unkowingly join us in the act. But the hunting community as a whole. It is not our sport being judged by the overall acts of our fellow hunters as a whole. It is being judged based on the ones who feel they dont have to follow the rules, no matter how unreasonable they may seem, "they are still the law" and knowingly breaking them is wrong, and just gives those that would end our sport more ammo to do so :rolleyes:

[boehr]

Every time this topic comes up it gets more sad, bad for the overall image of the sportsmen, regardless pro or con.:(

Just clearing a few things up, illegal killing a deer as well as illegal bait are both misdemeanors, one is not a felony but either will do you in for a CCW permit. One could say that if you shot a deer over illegal bait then it could also be an illegal deer.:eek:

That's my only comments.:(

[Eastern Yooper]

Ever stop to think about the consequences for your little brother or 'newcomers' to the sport if they happen to get caught by a CO sitting over the illegal bait? :(

[The Mutt]

futa1,

You still haven't answered the question "Would a guy shooting a deer in the shotgun zone with a rifle be poaching? How about a guy the sneaks on to private property and kills a deer? What about the guy that shoots a deer he doesn't have a license for so he uses his buddies tag? Are these guys poaching too?"

If so, please explain what the difference between what they do and what you do is.

Oh and yes I have broken a game law or 2 before. The difference is if I break a law it won't be intentional.

[marty]

Well getting back to the thread the local deer processor told me today he should open up a feed mill. He clean enough corn out of the deer he cut up. A baiting ban is impossible.......marty:D

[Eastern Yooper]

No its not.

Actually... its quite feasible, and inevitable.

Make it a mandatory $500 fine and a (1) year loss of license. Word will get out real quick that the state isn't monkeying around on this one.

[marty]

he he he that's funny. What about second offense?:confused: Maybe a public stoning:p . Won't ever happen. I think I heard it was a 40.00 dollar fine. Those big hunt clubs could just use a cell phone and a credit card or better yet they could run a tab till the end of the season:p . You're forgetting about the extra few thousand Co's to chase down illegal bait piles........marty:D

[futa1]

THE MUTT......

"You still haven't answered the question "Would a guy shooting a deer in the shotgun zone with a rifle be poaching? How about a guy the sneaks on to private property and kills a deer? What about the guy that shoots a deer he doesn't have a license for so he uses his buddies tag? Are these guys poaching too?""

You say I "still" as if you already asked me and I avoided the question. To answer you question 1) guy who shoots with rifle below line. I guess depends on your definition of poaching, but for sure unsafe and illegal.
2) Tresspassing, yes poaching, and I frown apon it. 3) Sharing tags... I would say poaching, unfortanatly it goes on all the time.

Like I said earlier I am happy that people on this board hold game laws to such a high regard. I still think some of you are on a high horse and disregard or bend some law but wont admit it here. Any way I do what I do, and think what you will I have explained it enough. I can live with my self and the consiquences of my actions. Believe it or not I consider myself a ethical responsible hunter (just honest on an internet forum.) I also understand all of your arguements breaking the law is breaking the law.

[Bob S]

Many message boards have rules against advocating breaking the law. Maybe blatant law breakers should not be allowed here. It makes all of us look bad.

[stelmon]

Sorry for not getting back to you guys earliar. Have been trying to work and pass out food drive things.

As far as the topic, no, farmers should not be banned from planting crops, but they should not hunt over them if baiting is banned. You say that a large field full of corn won't alter the deer movement. Then what makes you think a truck load of corn won't. It takes time! What KennR said is exactly what I meant.

Also, I have no problem when it was legal if someone put out a truck load of sugar beats either. What you should do it, just go out there after the deer have started a pattern and shoot them as they head to his bait pile if you can. There is always a way to get a deer no matter what and I don't think the banning of bait would help. I also think, if it affected you so bad, when you do get your deer, you will feel even better because you over came the hard part.

Futa, even though you don't think it is wrong, it is. It's the law and when a Co sees it, you wish you would of stopped. Unless your not hunting on it!

[One Eye]

Okay, here is the deal from my corner of the world. Excessive baiting is still going on. Are the COs enforcing the restrictions? HE!! NO!! I have reported several violations with exact directions, only to have these ignored. These individuals continue to bait in excessive amounts and trespass everywhere. BTW, I hunt on the public land too. The trespassing simply gives us all a bad name, and makes it nearly impossible to gain legal access.

My opinion is either ban it TOTALLY, or open the flood gates back up. The current arrangement is a joke. Of course, before the DNR makes any big decisions, they must be sure to consult the Insurance lobbyists and the Farm lobby for their marching orders.

Dan

[futa1]

"Futa, even though you don't think it is wrong, it is. It's the law and when a Co sees it, you wish you would of stopped. Unless your not hunting on it!"

I am not saying it isn't wrong, breaking the law is wrong. Just like not wearing your seat belt is wrong, or speeding is wrong.

I break two regulations, I put out more bait then legal, and I use screw in climbers on state land. Both wrong but I do it any way.

Atleast I am honest right?

[stelmon]

:confused:

[One Eye]

Futa, my opinion is that your honesty is overshadowed by your disregard for the law. Not only is that wrong, but your open discussion of it on a public forum makes us all look bad. There are many laws that I don't agree with, but I choose to obey them because it is the right thing to do. I sure hope you aren't training young hunters to only follow the hunting laws that they want to???

Dan

"Ethics is what you do when no one is looking." <Aldo Leopold>

[futa1]

I agree I shouldn't try and justify breaking the law. I still believe that the half dozen or so posters who have busted me on this bend some regulation some time during the year, but are not willing tio admit it here.

You guys remind me of my roomate and his friends. You see my roomate is a fanatical christain, and he holds bible studies at our apartment. My roomate and his friends will reluctantly admit that no one is free of sin, but will consistently look down thier nose at any "lesser" christian. The point is, I think alot of you are quick to point fingers, but are guilty of soem kind of violation during teh hunting season.