One year in the life of some 3 1/2 plus bucks

[calhoun]

At the beginning of this year (2008) we as a co-op set trail cams on an area of about 8 square miles. What we wanted to know was how far the bucks traveled in our area and where did they end up during hunting season. What we found i think is pretty interesting. First of a little back ground on the habitat. This is a mix ag/hardwoods/swamp ground, some of the best habitat in Michigan. Also worth noting is some of these properties have been set up by land managment companies. We ran 12 cameras, all were Reconyx cameras so we didn't miss much.
What I want to focus on is four bucks in particular.
First up is Tall 8 point
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008-08-1207-45-11AMM02_03.jpg
Next wide 8 point
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008-07-2010-48-46PMM03_03.jpg
10 point
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008-07-2802-40-35AMM01_03.jpg
8 point G2,3's lean forward
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008-07-2705-16-45AMM03_03.jpg
Up first is the tall 8 point, I have hundreds of pics of this buck in velvet but never seen him after the end of August. This deer summered on a very large been field(200 acres) and he was bedding in and around a 150 acre plus swamp that the bean field was next to. I thought this deer was just extremely smart and thats why nobody or the cameras ever saw him again. Turns out he was shot the second weekend of gun season just about 2 miles from where he was photographed all summer. My theory on this deer is he summered on the large bean field and headed home for fall.
Next up is the wide 8 point, this deer was photograped all summer with a bachelor group of 13 bucks. They summered on a 80 acre corn field that boarded a cut winter wheat field. This buck was photographed out of velvet in September, but once hunting season started he vanished. He did show up during gun season about a half mile from where he was in the summer. He did make it through the season and is now back within 1/4 of a mile from where he was all summer.
Next the 10 point, my personal favorite. This buck was photographed on my property last year all hunting season. This year in the summer i never got one pic of this deer on my property, He was running with the large bachelor group. This deer would make about a two mile circle in the summer, sometimes his buddies were with him and sometimes he was alone. When he cam out of velvet he was still about a 1/2 mile from my property and stayed away till about second weekend of October. From then on he stayed in a 150 acre plus swamp for the rest of the hunting season. I personally watched this deer bed in 5 different locations on my property. Here he is opening day, he stayed in a 25' circle for more than 4 hours. He bedded many times in different spots in that small circle. This deer did make it through the season and is still on the property and he is running with six other bucks.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008season026.jpg
Last one, this buck is also one from last year. He never bedded on my property, but would visit many time during the rut. This deer also ran in the large bachelor group and stayed just about in the same place he summered. This deer bedded very close to a neighbors house and would always be somewhere in this 20 acre swamp. My neighbor watched him many time stand up from his bed to run of other bucks and just lay back down where he was. This deer was harvested during muzzeloader less that 200 yards from where he was bedded(this deer also bedded in that exact same swamp last year).
You might ask what we have learned from all this. What i have found is that these bucks will return to home, but they will all set up shop in different locations. To me once these deer reach a certain age they don't want to be living in the same location as a rival buck. This kind of defeats the purpose of thinking that you are going to stock pile all of these bucks in a 40 acre woods. We own a 150 acre plus swap and for the last 4 years there is only a couple of mature bucks that live in it. What happens is who ever is king **** that year pushes off the other bucks to surrounding areas. I once though you could have tons of mature bucks living in the same location, but what we have found is just not the case. We will be doing this every year so i will keep you posted from year to year. Let me know what you think.

[habitatjunkie]

I have come to the same conclusion in my area.

[stoneycreekhabitatspecial]

Great info Kyle.

The buck you photographed on opening day that stayed in the 25 foot circle.....he should have been with a doe or atleast looking for a doe...right? Do you think his will to survive opening day overroad his desire to breed? Had he maybe seen a couple hunters already that morning and figured it was time to hunker down.

[Munsterlndr]

Great pics and an interesting post. Based on your camera observations, any idea of the density and sex ratios on these properties?

[bucksnbows]

So do you think that in any given hunting season the bucks you have on camera will not show themselves during hunting season unless they are following a hot doe? Or cruising doe bedding areas? I have seen many bucks during the summer but they do disapear during hunting season. I don't use cameras too often so I don't get to really recognize a particular buck. Any way this is very interesting and I will definatly like to see how following years will be.

[CHASINEYES]

First, NICE BUCKS! I enjoyed your post. I would like to see future post. Though we dont have an age class anywhere near yours, I see similar summer/fall range changes in our area.

[uptracker]

Thanks

[steve1983]

cool post!!:D

[Grouse Hunter]

Good stuff.

[November Sunrise]

Great thread Kyle.

[calhoun]

Great pics and an interesting post. Based on your camera observations, any idea of the density and sex ratios on these properties?
Munster, in short i would say our sex ratio is very good. We averaged about 15 identifiable bucks per camera, and of course a few were repeats. According to the DNR are deer density is 65 DPSM, I can tell you that in our co-op it is no where near that. We have been very aggresive with our doe harvest the last few years. This is the first year that we actually cut back on the amount of does taken. My best est. puts us at 35-40 DPSM. We also own a farm 20 min south of the co-op where very little management is being done and the deer density difference is staggering.

[calhoun]

So do you think that in any given hunting season the bucks you have on camera will not show themselves during hunting season unless they are following a hot doe? Or cruising doe bedding areas? I have seen many bucks during the summer but they do disapear during hunting season. I don't use cameras too often so I don't get to really recognize a particular buck. Any way this is very interesting and I will definatly like to see how following years will be.
Bucksnbows, This is a good story about just how smart these bucks are. I was hunting a small field with standing corn and a small clover field with bedding on three sides. The 10 point was bedded about 20 yard from my east fence in some very heavy cover. My neigbor to the east only have a few treestands and hunt them no matter the wind direction. This morning the wind was out of the northeast blowing right to the 10 point. This is a pic of him nose into the wind smelling this guy hunting on the fence line. This guy was more than 300 yards from this deer.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008season004.jpg
The buck stood in one spot and only moved his head for at least 10 min. He then very slowly moved back towards me and bedded on that same fence line about 100 yards to the south of where he was. This deer was spotted during daylight 4 times in the season. I only saw this buck with a doe one time during the year. He followed her into that same fence line and stayed there for about a half hour. I then watched a 2 1/2 year old buck go into that same bedding area and he ran out chasing that doe. The 10 point just walked out and starting feeding on the clover field. What I have witnessed over the years is a lot less chasing when you have mature bucks in the mix. They never seem to chase just follow, I do know there are exceptions to the that.

[Ridge_runner7]

Very interesting...awesome post!

[jml2]

Good stuff.

[bucksnbows]

This is a very good post. I like that you have all those acres in your co-op to be able to somewhat monitor the way certain bucks live. I guess being a mature buck in Michigan doesn't happen by being stupid. Keep up dating and if you got more to tell and photos I am sure we will all enjoy!!!!!!

[brokentines]

One of the better and more interesting post I have seen. I keep a camera out from June through December. I also had a huge buck early in summer that disappeared for the rest of the year. But as stated I picked up about 5 new bucks near the end of October including a couple nice 8 points.

[Rutcrazed]

....documenting deer behavoir. Mature animals at that......did you harvest any?

[billya]

This shows that getting your neighboors involved in letting smaller bucks walk might be the most important tool in shooting monster bucks.

[greyghost]

i wish i was able to do this in my area. Cool post.

[calhoun]

....documenting deer behavoir. Mature animals at that......did you harvest any?
Rutcrazed, I personally did not harvest any bucks this year, or the last three for that matter. My personal goal is 4 1/2 and older, needless to say its been a tough road. Even though i did not kill a buck this year this was one of my most enjoyable seasons yet. As far as our co-op harvest goes you can see some of those pics on another thread (08 co-op bucks).

[stoneycreekhabitatspecial]

Great info Kyle.

The buck you photographed on opening day that stayed in the 25 foot circle.....he should have been with a doe or atleast looking for a doe...right? Do you think his will to survive opening day overroad his desire to breed? Had he maybe seen a couple hunters already that morning and figured it was time to hunker down.

Kyle, can you give your opinion on this question? I often wonder how much our firearm season effects the breeding season.

[Whit1]

This is an excellent thread.

How does what you've learned fit into the concept of deer, especially bucks, having a "core" area?

[calhoun]

Kyle, can you give your opinion on this question? I often wonder how much our firearm season effects the breeding season.
Thats a tough question. This is what i have witnessed over the years with cameras. From gun season on i notice a huge drop in daytime movement. The cameras are still taking lot of pics, but mostly at night. In my area i think most of the breeding is already done by the 15th. We still see deer chasing does, but a lot of the family groups are back together. I don't think it has a huge impact on them, i think they just do a lot of it at night.

[calhoun]

This is an excellent thread.

How does what you've learned fit into the concept of deer, especially bucks, having a "core" area?


Core area's? This is a good one. I know we have all seen it or at least heard of it, small properties with mature bucks running wild. A little background first, In the beginning i thought with 150 acres of some of the best cover around and hiring a deer bed guru, how couldn't i have mature bucks running every where. I got some very valuable info from hiring a deer expert, So i put it all to work, at the same time we started our co-op(2003).

My obsession with cameras started the year after, Finally in 2007 i felt i finally had good cameras that worked all the time. Its hard to know if your program is really working if you don't know what's out there. In 2007 we were seeing some nice bucks, But did not have cameras on the neighbors yet, so i just figured any buck i got a pic of was staying on me(homegrown).

The following year in the spring is when we put all the cameras out. I was surprised at how much these guys move around. Its no wonder they get hit by cars so much, some of these bucks were crossing roads twice a day. What we found was in the nonhunting seasons when bachelor groups are together these bucks move out of the heavy cover and setup shop on big Ag fields.

When they start coming out of velvet is when it gets interesting, they start moving all over the place. Its like they are looking for that ideal spot to call home. In late Sept and early Oct they are still moving around a lot, it seems to me your mature bucks come back about the time scraping becomes heavy. This is when i see bucks really starting to use whats called a core area. I found that mature bucks 3 1/2 and older will spend a good portion of their day(Daylight hours) on less than 5 acres. The problem is they may have a very small core area, but they will not put up with another mature animal in their area.

How big is this area, Check out the pic, the red circle is where the 10 point spent most of his time and the blue circle is the 8 with lean forward G2,3's spent his. The 10 point was visible a few times during daylight on me but the 8 was never seen on my side, nor was the 10 seen on there's. I have a few pics of their 8 during the rut cruising the property in the middle of the night but that's it. My only reason for this is these two bucks kept each other away from the others property. They only lived less than half mile from each other, spent all summer running together, but once breeding season got going they were done hanging out.

I think these bucks core areas are defined by outside pressure, one being human pressure and the other territorial. I think if we had a better age structure we would have far more bucks on the property. If the 3 1/2 age class is the dominate class, (no bucks over this age) this is what you end up with. If we had several age classes represented 6 1/2 all the way down, then we could support several 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks, I think this is one of the main problems with managing a deer herd, The antlers come into play and you end up killing all the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2's. If these deer where able to live you could have bucks of all age classes represented, the kings are at the top 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 and everybody else falls in line behind them. Sorry for the long post i hope i answered your question.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/huntingprop2.jpg

[Whit1]

Thanks! Very insightful indeed.

[rudy78]

Core area's? This is a good one. I know we have all seen it or at least heard of it, small properties with mature bucks running wild. A little background first, In the beginning i thought with 150 acres of some of the best cover around and hiring a deer bed guru, how couldn't i have mature bucks running every where. I got some very valuable info from hiring a deer expert, So i put it all to work, at the same time we started our co-op(2003).

My obsession with cameras started the year after, Finally in 2007 i felt i finally had good cameras that worked all the time. Its hard to know if your program is really working if you don't know what's out there. In 2007 we were seeing some nice bucks, But did not have cameras on the neighbors yet, so i just figured any buck i got a pic of was staying on me(homegrown).


The following year in the spring is when we put all the cameras out. I was surprised at how much these guys move around. Its no wonder they get hit by cars so much, some of these bucks were crossing roads twice a day. What we found was in the nonhunting seasons when bachelor groups are together these bucks move out of the heavy cover and setup shop on big Ag fields.

When they start coming out of velvet is when it gets interesting, they start moving all over the place. Its like they are looking for that ideal spot to call home. In late Sept and early Oct they are still moving around a lot, it seems to me your mature bucks come back about the time scraping becomes heavy. This is when i see bucks really starting to use whats called a core area. I found that mature bucks 3 1/2 and older will spend a good portion of their day(Daylight hours) on less than 5 acres. The problem is they may have a very small core area, but they will not put up with another mature animal in their area.

How big is this area, Check out the pic, the red circle is where the 10 point spent most of his time and the blue circle is the 8 with lean forward G2,3's spent his. The 10 point was visible a few times during daylight on me but the 8 was never seen on my side, nor was the 10 seen on there's. I have a few pics of their 8 during the rut cruising the property in the middle of the night but that's it. My only reason for this is these two bucks kept each other away from the others property. They only lived less than half mile from each other, spent all summer running together, but once breeding season got going they were done hanging out.

I think these bucks core areas are defined by outside pressure, one being human pressure and the other territorial. I think if we had a better age structure we would have far more bucks on the property. If the 3 1/2 age class is the dominate class, (no bucks over this age) this is what you end up with. If we had several age classes represented 6 1/2 all the way down, then we could support several 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks, I think this is one of the main problems with managing a deer herd, The antlers come into play and you end up killing all the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2's. If these deer where able to live you could have bucks of all age classes represented, the kings are at the top 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 and everybody else falls in line behind them. Sorry for the long post i hope i answered your question.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/huntingprop2.jpg

Great post. I would definitely agree that piece can only hold so many of each age class and that number depends on the classes above it as well as the number within it.

A ? I have and maybe you can't answer yet because only 2007 when you were really getting cameras where you want.
Do you find that if an old buck is killed, another buck (similar in age or at least pretty dominate) quickly moves in and takes over his core area?

From what I've observed there is something about the core area of the most dominate bucks and if removed the next closest dominate buck will move in, but I don't have all the pictures and data to really prove this.

[oldrank]

nice pics.....good looking deer

[ARROWEM]

Thanks , calhoun. This is the best thread I have ever read. Nice work

[double lung]

:coolgleam

This thread shows, among other things, just how far we have to go in managing our deer herd in this state.

Great post, Kyle. You guys have a great thing going over there!

[calhoun]

Great post. I would definitely agree that piece can only hold so many of each age class and that number depends on the classes above it as well as the number within it.

A ? I have and maybe you can't answer yet because only 2007 when you were really getting cameras where you want.
Do you find that if an old buck is killed, another buck (similar in age or at least pretty dominate) quickly moves in and takes over his core area?

From what I've observed there is something about the core area of the most dominate bucks and if removed the next closest dominate buck will move in, but I don't have all the pictures and data to really prove this.

I don't have pictures to prove your point, but totally agree with you. Over the years we have had mature bucks set up in small 10 acre pot holes or swamps and if they were harvested, usually at some point another decent buck would move in there. Hopefully next year we might be able to prove this with cameras.

[Ed Spin04]

Calhoun, I'm impressed. There is much data available from research done on large areas that are managed for a natural deer herd. The King ranch in Southern Texas is one example. Our own John Ozoga of 30 years of Cousino research verifies much of your presumptions. The key is having dominate and mature, (5-1/2 and older) bucks within the herd to maintain social order. With enough older bucks within the herd a few will become the dominate ones. They usually demand their space and respect, but this only puts the rest of the bucks in their proper subservient position. You are right Calhoun, you can actually increase the number of mature bucks, (2-1/2 - 5-1/2) in your area even during the rut by having a natural male social order and this starts with having a true dominate mature buck giving subtle commands. Everybody knows where they stand and peace reins throughout the empire. It is natural for all animal specie to have dominance within their group, (large or small) to maintain order. Fighting only occurs when an outsider moves in. The more social order the more males appear. Let's face it most of us are followers and want to be near true leadership. Thanks Calhoun, for your observations.

[FREEPOP]

Calhoun, you confirmed what I had thought and stated, "you can only have so many mature deer on your property". The mature deer all require their space and if they can't win it, they'll find it else where. Which is also confirmed by the deer getting killed 2 miles away, IMO.

Interesting stuff and thanks for sharing.

[Progress]

Bucksnbows, This is a good story about just how smart these bucks are. I was hunting a small field with standing corn and a small clover field with bedding on three sides. The 10 point was bedded about 20 yard from my east fence in some very heavy cover. My neigbor to the east only have a few treestands and hunt them no matter the wind direction. This morning the wind was out of the northeast blowing right to the 10 point. This is a pic of him nose into the wind smelling this guy hunting on the fence line. This guy was more than 300 yards from this deer.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008season004.jpg
The buck stood in one spot and only moved his head for at least 10 min. He then very slowly moved back towards me and bedded on that same fence line about 100 yards to the south of where he was. This deer was spotted during daylight 4 times in the season. I only saw this buck with a doe one time during the year. He followed her into that same fence line and stayed there for about a half hour. I then watched a 2 1/2 year old buck go into that same bedding area and he ran out chasing that doe. The 10 point just walked out and starting feeding on the clover field. What I have witnessed over the years is a lot less chasing when you have mature bucks in the mix. They never seem to chase just follow, I do know there are exceptions to the that.
Calhoun,
First of all, great post.
In regards to your observations of mature bucks following more often than chasing. Do you think that is the bi-product of hierarchy in the herd? In other words, are the subordinate bucks trying to compete more in order to breed where as the mature bucks basically have pick of litter. The reason I ask is because I too observe these same rutting behaviors on our Michigan property where mature bucks are few and far between. However, on our out of state ground where the mature buck ratio is much greater, we often see a nearly opposite chasing behavior. In Iowa, when the rut is on, mature bucks often seem crazed and almost out of control where as the young bucks seem to be sneaking around in an attempt to pick up the crumbs without getting caught.
Obviously there are always the exceptions but it just seems that a continued effort to improve our mature buck ratio would only intensify our mature buck behavior.
I'm interested if you have had any similar observations.
Great work on your co-op and again a super post.
Thanks

[Liver and Onions]

Fall Home Range Shift / Dispersal Phase[/B] (Rubbing/Scraping) Sept. 15 - Oct. 15
With rising testosterone levels bucks become more aggressive and no longer travel in groups. Bucks in some areas may shift from a summer core area to fall core area, and begin to use larger home ranges as they search for preferred food sources to put on fat for the winter. They may travel through several doe home ranges in preparation for breeding. Scraping may diminish at this time. My studies show that bucks begin to leave core areas later in the evening, and go back to core areas earlier in the morning during this phase.
T.R.
[/SIZE]

Interested in your thoughts on fall dispersal in regards to any influence that does might have on the bucks.
A number of times some have written that does will "chase off" their yearling offspring buck in the fall prior to breeding season. I have never bought into this idea.....just can't see a doe chasing off a buck with a rack of antlers even if the rack is small. Our thoughts have always been that yes, bucks do disperse in the fall but they are not driven off by their mother.
Also your thoughts on spring dispersal. My thoughts and what I believe.....the doe will seperate herself from last years fawns about 2 weeks before giving birth. That fawn(s) will be forced from that doe's birthing area, but the distance they move may be rather short or long depending on the sex of the fawn and unknown instincts.

Thanks in advance,
L & O

[Progress]

Calhoun, you confirmed what I had thought and stated, "you can only have so many mature deer on your property". The mature deer all require their space and if they can't win it, they'll find it else where. Which is also confirmed by the deer getting killed 2 miles away, IMO.

Interesting stuff and thanks for sharing.
I agree with this in areas such as most of Michigan, where mature bucks are not a significant population of the herd. It only makes sense that mature bucks would seek seclusion when given the opportunity thus resulting in less necessity to compete for breedable does.

But what happens when that space gets encroached on because the mature buck ratio increases to the point where their space overlaps and available does shrink exponentially.

[Progress]

Bucksnbows, This is a good story about just how smart these bucks are. I was hunting a small field with standing corn and a small clover field with bedding on three sides. The 10 point was bedded about 20 yard from my east fence in some very heavy cover. My neigbor to the east only have a few treestands and hunt them no matter the wind direction. This morning the wind was out of the northeast blowing right to the 10 point. This is a pic of him nose into the wind smelling this guy hunting on the fence line. This guy was more than 300 yards from this deer.
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p114/kyleka/2008season004.jpg
The buck stood in one spot and only moved his head for at least 10 min. He then very slowly moved back towards me and bedded on that same fence line about 100 yards to the south of where he was. This deer was spotted during daylight 4 times in the season. I only saw this buck with a doe one time during the year. He followed her into that same fence line and stayed there for about a half hour. I then watched a 2 1/2 year old buck go into that same bedding area and he ran out chasing that doe. The 10 point just walked out and starting feeding on the clover field. What I have witnessed over the years is a lot less chasing when you have mature bucks in the mix. They never seem to chase just follow, I do know there are exceptions to the that.

That deer is a picture of health, not only because he sports some nice headgear, but more importantly he is a stud.

Big full shoulders, pot belly, saggy back and a thick neck. That is the goal and it looks like you guys have the formula. It gives me goose bumps!
Congrats and keep it up!

[Ed Spin04]

TR, I appreciate and respect your knowledge and experience. Note that I state that bucks gather about in an area, where there is a true natural buck social order. This is hard to find in Michigan , Mn, Wi, and most other areas, yet many of us have seen the following and perhaps yourself TR. It starts in mid summer with a few mature bucks, (bachelor group) taking over an open old field, hayfield etc. This field may be their primary residence all summer long. It will stay that way with little to no buck additions if there is no true older dominate buck within the bachelor group. Add one aggresive big boy and things sure do change. They spend all summer establishing their social order, (pecking order). With a true older dominate buck present the number of bucks from yearlings to 5-1/2 year olds that hang around usually increase. You may see the mature group change from the original 3-5 to 8 or more. Yearling bucks come and go within this bachelor group just to be introduced. Some mature bucks visit but never get involved with the main group, but may be accompanied by their personal subservient buck, (Toby). This guy may be close to being boss and may challenge big Charley and maybe not, yet he hangs around. He would not be there if big charley was not present. True leadership attracts and the attraction can grow to many bucks being present from mid June through mid September. Things now change as testosterone increases and velvet shedding takes oplace. Bucks disperse but many keep that summer residence as part of their fall extended range. Yes mature bucks wander afar during the stages of the rut, but they still have the memory of that gathering experience of summer and many will include that area as part of their movements. This only happens when there is a true older dominate buck that really takes charge. TR you have much experience in observing deer and no doubt you well know the above facts. Such as big Charley moving about and everyone else eyeballing him and ready to move out of his way without a pause, or during the rut with a group of does in a field and harassed by a couple bucks until Charley shows up. You see events that tell you much, these wanna be bucks of any age instantly know their place and turn their heads away from Charley, (acknowledging his position) and pretend that they are only interested in browsing but do not leave the area. I too observe TR and the above is my experience. How about 24 bucks seen in a CRP field of 120 acres (I stopped farming in 1996) with 10 being mature, (3-1/2 years old or older) in 2000. Of those ten mature bucks including 5-1/2 year old Charley five were taken in that year within a mile of my farm, (one 3-1/2 year old 10 pointer on the 120 acres). The second in command was taken the following year, (when he was a 5-1/2 ten pointer that scored 151 B&C) within 50 yards of my property line. That's six of ten including 190+ B&C Charley that spent the summer on my farm in 2000. Yes, they still are out there, but no big Charley to take charge and pull in other mature bucks. I took many videos of these guys and had the bunch on TV twice. So there is much documentation. Those 24 bucks were seen at the same time, with only five does being present. That also is a normal phenonenom.

[bucksnbows]

Ok heres a scenario (close to what I see every year).

All summer you see bucks feeding in 140 acre bean field. The 140 acre field is part of the 280 acres you have to hunt. You already know the doe population is high. The cover on the property and surrounding property is good to excellent, and you are in AG land so food is plentiful.
On average lets say during late august through mid September, you see 15 bucks in the field one may be 4.5 four are 3.5 and the rest are 1.5 and 2.5
Now once the hunting season starts in October the older bucks are not showing themselves as much, but the 2.5 and 1.5 are still out feeding in daylight. As the season progresses you see maybe one buck of at least 3.5 sneaking out of range through the woods and lots of encounters with the young bucks.
Come the early part of November you see a couple of older bucks, but none of them are the ones you had seen during the end of summer.
You know they say hunt where the does are and you will find bucks.

Now I know hunting pressure and the bachalor groups breaking up have alot to do with the lack of sightings. My question is where do these bucks go? Do they still travel back to that same area even if it is a night only? Or are they just so good at staying out of sight due to a few years of being hunted? I am sure there are bucks on the neighboring properties that are mature and I have never seen. Talk to the neighbors and they tell of other bucks they have seen while hunting properties less than a 1/4 mile away. Just curious as to where they all go or come from.
I can't see all the older age class bucks finding their own areas to breed without crossing paths with others, or returning to their summer ranges where they know there are abundant does to breed. You would think even if a 4.5 was the dominent buck in a certain area a 2.5 or 3.5 would take a chance of intruding that bucks area to get ahold of one of the does without him knowing. Especially after spending the summer feeding amongst a bunch of does.

[FREEPOP]

I read a study using radio collars saying that bucks will travel as far as 20 miles during breading season. I've also read studies where bucks will stay right there and no hunters will ever see them, as they stay bedded in the thick and are completely nocturnal.

[calhoun]

Calhoun, I'm impressed. There is much data available from research done on large areas that are managed for a natural deer herd. The King ranch in Southern Texas is one example. Our own John Ozoga of 30 years of Cousino research verifies much of your presumptions. The key is having dominate and mature, (5-1/2 and older) bucks within the herd to maintain social order. With enough older bucks within the herd a few will become the dominate ones. They usually demand their space and respect, but this only puts the rest of the bucks in their proper subservient position. You are right Calhoun, you can actually increase the number of mature bucks, (2-1/2 - 5-1/2) in your area even during the rut by having a natural male social order and this starts with having a true dominate mature buck giving subtle commands. Everybody knows where they stand and peace reins throughout the empire. It is natural for all animal specie to have dominance within their group, (large or small) to maintain order. Fighting only occurs when an outsider moves in. The more social order the more males appear. Let's face it most of us are followers and want to be near true leadership. Thanks Calhoun, for your observations.

Ed first of i would like to say thank you, i really respect you opinion. I'm hoping to add to this thread throughout the summer, two of these bucks made it through the season. I would like to document on just what they do all summer and where they end up in the fall. So I will keep you guys posted.

[calhoun]

Progress,
I agree with what you guys are observing. I really believe if you enhance the buck age struture enough, you will eventually get mature bucks that overlap each other, which leads to what you are seeing in Iowa. Slowly we are starting to get a much better age stucture in our area, this next season should be interesting, have a good # of 3 1/2's that made it through.

[Progress]

Progress,
I agree with what you guys are observing. I really believe if you enhance the buck age struture enough, you will eventually get mature bucks that overlap each other, which leads to what you are seeing in Iowa. Slowly we are starting to get a much better age stucture in our area, this next season should be interesting, have a good # of 3 1/2's that made it through.

That is very exciting to hear and I would agree that even though we have a way to go, things are looking up in our area as well. I have always said that I will continue to go out of state in order to experience that quality of hunting, but how nice would it be to get a taste of it right here at home.