Its all in the property, and by the way QDM works

[unclecbass]

I have been fortunate this year in that I have been able to hunt 2 large pieces of privately owned hunting property. The firs piece is in northern michigan 1200 acres, the second is in the jackson area 1,000 acres. Let me tell you, after years of hunting northern michigan on small plots of land, I was shocked. Deer galore on both pieces, not unusual to see between 25 and 35 deer per sit. 3.5 or better rule on bucks in both locations, activly encouraged doe harvest in both locations. The deer numbers and quality were amazing. Ther is no doubt in my mind that QDM is effective, anyone who says it is not is ignorant, as I used to be. We really need to enact some new legislation in this state because the current laws are robbing all of us of spectacular hunting opportunities. I personally will never shoot anything less than a 3.5 buck again, now that I have seen the potential first hand. It is all in the property and the managment. We could all be doing well if we just used a little restraint and harvested some more does.

[Rouxballs]

Thats great if you hunt on 1200 or 1000 acres of private land.
Most of the land land I hunt I share with who knows how many other hunters--Its called state land.
I remember a few years ago I passed on a deer--I watched where it walked and a few minutes later John Doe shot it.
It could have been in my freezer-Not to mention I planned to be on that same state land the next year and the the next year after that and so on.
QDM is good but it dont work on State land.

[HerdManager]

Agree for the most part. I hunt on a somewhat smaller chunk than yourself at 234 acres and the deer hunting is sweet. But, I also hunt a small 20 acre chunk that the deer hunting can be sweet but it can also be zilch, depending on a number of factors. The 20 is my opening day spot until I die, the 234 is for the rest of the season.

QDM as an education tool is second to none. As a mandatory effort, I think it's a little over the top. I try to always keep the small acreage perspective even though I'm spoiled with the 234. You just don't see as many deer so limitations don't make as much sense.

And I'm jealous, I want to have access to 640 acres of private one day, imagine what you could do with all that space.

[WoodsmanSmitty]

Nice post unclebass. We started some of the same magement practices on our farm. It is amazing what you learn from the deer that are non-target animals.
As far as it not working on small tracts of land.....some just have to see it to believe.

[ENCORE]

Nice post unclebass. We started some of the same magement practices on our farm. It is amazing what you learn from the deer that are non-target animals.
As far as it not working on small tracts of land.....some just have to see it to believe.

I passed on 6 bucks during the bow season on my 20 acres and on the second day of rifle season, they ALL had been harvested from the 100 acres around me. I took a doe for meat. Granted, the muzz season starts Friday and maybe I still have a chance. I'm not a QDM guy, but I do let the little guys go. Sure wish the neighbors would....

[hunt-n-fool]

<snip>

Ther is no doubt in my mind that QDM is effective, anyone who says it is not is ignorant, as I used to be.

Can you expand on your definition of effective? At what are you alluding to ?

thanks !

[unclecbass]

Effective in the sense that, no only will the overall health of the deer herd be improved, but, if imposed in a sufficient area, within a short period of time the caliber of bucks available for harvest will improve. After seeing the results, based upon the land managers intended outcome. No doubt there will likely be larger bucks in areas of high nutrition and lower pressure, but the overall quality of any deer population can be enhanced by the practice of QDM.

[farmlegend]

Deer galore on both pieces, not unusual to see between 25 and 35 deer per sit.

Those kind of sighting rates are extraordinarily high, and inconsistent with QDM-style management. Remember, states with better-balanced herds than what we're used to in Michigan typically have much lower deer densities than we do. If those properties have been practicing QDM for a number of years, you could make the case that their efforts have been a failure. With QDM, the resource comes first, and the sighting rates you cited are strongly indicative of unhealthy, excessive deer numbers.

Out of my last 500 sits, I think I've seen more than 25 deer exactly twice.

[Neal]

Thats great if you hunt on 1200 or 1000 acres of private land.
Most of the land land I hunt I share with who knows how many other hunters--Its called state land.
I remember a few years ago I passed on a deer--I watched where it walked and a few minutes later John Doe shot it.
It could have been in my freezer-Not to mention I planned to be on that same state land the next year and the the next year after that and so on.
QDM is good but it dont work on State land.

If there were laws in place, that buck, depending on its size, would be protected.

[thetreestandguy]

We really need to enact some new legislation in this state because the current laws are robbing all of us of spectacular hunting opportunities.

Like Neal said, this would protect ALL those deer, state or private land. I passed on a few nice 8's this year, watched them walk away only to hear shooting shortly thereafter. Although dis-heartened at the time I truly don't know what was shot. I've had to repeat the montra, while in the stand, that there's a good chance it wasn't the deer I just passed! Say it often enough and you believe it...somewhat.:lol:

[Buck Bed]

Those kind of sighting rates are extraordinarily high, and inconsistent with QDM-style management. Remember, states with better-balanced herds than what we're used to in Michigan typically have much lower deer densities than we do. If those properties have been practicing QDM for a number of years, you could make the case that their efforts have been a failure. With QDM, the resource comes first, and the sighting rates you cited are strongly indicative of unhealthy, excessive deer numbers.

Out of my last 500 sits, I think I've seen more than 25 deer exactly twice.

The most amount of deer I saw on my place this year was 13. This is way down from the all time high of gun season '96 of 83 on opening morning. Right in the heart of prime SW MI farm country. If MI would add a one buck rule or some other way to reduce buck harvest we would be golden.

[beer and nuts]

Those kind of sighting rates are extraordinarily high, and inconsistent with QDM-style management. Remember, states with better-balanced herds than what we're used to in Michigan typically have much lower deer densities than we do. If those properties have been practicing QDM for a number of years, you could make the case that their efforts have been a failure. With QDM, the resource comes first, and the sighting rates you cited are strongly indicative of unhealthy, excessive deer numbers.
Thats what i was thinking. Deer galore on both pieces, not unusual to see between 25 and 35 deer per sit.Thats to many deer for NLP and they are practicing what the hunters want to see and that is alot of deer per sit, the only thing they are practicing is antler restrictions. Nothing wrong with it besides they might pay the piper this year with the hard snow, UNLESS they are supplemental feeding!

[qdmaer]

1 BUCK RULE? THAT IS PART OF THE ANSWEAR. TOO MANY HUNTERS IN MICHIGAN, DEER HERD IS DOWN. I HUNT PRIME LOCATION AND THE DEER NUMBERS ARE DOWN. THE UKNOWWHO CAN SAY WHAT THEY WANT, BUT REMEMBER TIMES ARE TOUGH AND WHO WOULDN'T TAKE MORE MONEY FROM HUNTERS IF THEY COULD, AND THEY WILL TAKE ALL OF OUR MONEY FOR TAGS TILL THE DEER HERD IS DEFEATED. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE BECAUSE ALL THESE PRIVATE LANDOWNERS ARE MAKING THEIR PROPERTY'S SO GOOD IT IS CAUSING STATELAND TO BECOME A GHOSTTOWN. I DON'T KNOW BUT I ONLY KILL 1 BUCK A YEAR AND A COUPLE DOES. I CAN SAY OUR BUCK NUMBERS ARE GETTING CLOSE TO EVEN WITH DOES BUT IT JUST SEEMS THEIR IS NOT AS MANY DEER? AND WHO IS THE GUY THAT SAID AUTUMN OLIVES ARE INVASIVE INSMASHIVE? AND WHY DO QDM GUYS HAVE TO DRIVE 30,000 DOLLAR TRUCKS, GEEEEZ WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A RECESSION.:chillin:

[jpa]

Those kind of sighting rates are extraordinarily high, and inconsistent with QDM-style management. Remember, states with better-balanced herds than what we're used to in Michigan typically have much lower deer densities than we do. If those properties have been practicing QDM for a number of years, you could make the case that their efforts have been a failure. With QDM, the resource comes first, and the sighting rates you cited are strongly indicative of unhealthy, excessive deer numbers.



Great post, and I agree.

[CHASINEYES]

I think QDM would get more recruits if -

Advocates would realize not every area of the state is grossly overpopulated (parts of SLP included)..With that in mind, quit pushing the harvest of so many antlerless deer. Long time deer hunters in a given area know their local herds and they know when the herd is down. Then you have a group of hunters in said area filling every antlerless permit they can get their hands on, all in the name of QDM. That IMO is giving QDM a black eye for many deer hunters.

A 1:1 ratio is simply unobtainable when adjoining hunting proerties are mixed management(TDM/QDM), the herd will only continue to drop. Where is the bottom in this senario?

I,m not bashing QDM. I think QDM needs to realize the above and start advocating an antlerless kill cutoff point other than 1:1 ratio.

[SwitchBack.2]

Like Neal said,


Neal is GTG:D....QDM can only help, it won;t hurt anything...one buck rule is great and forces you to be a little picky. Any one that is crying about that 4 pt (I know DS2:o won;t let it by) that got canceled out could of been meat in my freezer need to stop crying and cancel out a doe for meat...A 2.5 yr old = more meat than a 1.5 yr old 4 pt. :p

[ifitsbrownitsdown]

A 2.5 yr old = more meat than a 1.5 yr old 4 pt. :p

i have butched many deer from the age of 6 month old up to 5.5 year old buck and you're realistically getting 30 lbs more meat in a 2.5 year old than you would in a 1.5 year old.....and in my terms, "thats darn near 6 sticks of salami!!!"

It has actually come to a point where i do not accept 1.5 year old bucks at my processing plant....and believe it or not...i get the same guys coming in, only they are bringing in doe and many of them now pass up 1.5 yr olds and many of them have been bringing in 2.5+ yr old bucks and atually credit me to thier sucess....:D THey are all dihard QDMers now....and i still get about 160 deer a year coming through and not one 1.5 year old bucks.....rules are rules in my house...:evil::coolgleam

[Bowmen7]

I hunt southern Mich and what QDM is doing to the herd is nothing short of destorying it. I pass all young bucks and some older ones to, I don't shoot doe because every person hears about QDM and think if they go out and shoot every doe they can then they will be making big bucks.What makes big bucks, there are afew things but most important is age. With every doe that is shot that is one less buck that will go into the herd and with fewer bucks going into the herd that means less bucks will make it to the next year, so by time a buck reaches 4 1/2 years of age there are alot less 4 1/2 bucks in the herd. To manage deer you need a controled harvest and until we have that we are in no way manageing are deer herd. QDM has one effect on are herd and that is less deer, both bucks and doe. QDM has to realize that most people that are in the woods are shooters and don't care about big bucks all they care about is killing and QDM just gives them the excuse to do it. If you think QDM is working then you sure don't spend much time in the woods or your hunting a lot of land with out much pressureand that makes the harvest controlled.

[jpa]

I hunt southern Mich and what QDM is doing to the herd is nothing short of destorying it. I pass all young bucks and some older ones to, I don't shoot doe because every person hears about QDM and think if they go out and shoot every doe they can then they will be making big bucks.What makes big bucks, there are afew things but most important is age. With every doe that is shot that is one less buck that will go into the herd and with fewer bucks going into the herd that means less bucks will make it to the next year, so by time a buck reaches 4 1/2 years of age there are alot less 4 1/2 bucks in the herd. To manage deer you need a controled harvest and until we have that we are in no way manageing are deer herd. QDM has one effect on are herd and that is less deer, both bucks and doe. QDM has to realize that most people that are in the woods are shooters and don't care about big bucks all they care about is killing and QDM just gives them the excuse to do it. If you think QDM is working then you sure don't spend much time in the woods or your hunting a lot of land with out much pressureand that makes the harvest controlled.


I don't get your post. So even if there are too many deer you won't shoot does b/c that will reduce the amount of potential bucks in the woods down the road?
Yesterday AM I saw at least 17 different deer with one being a 4 point (Which my neighbors would probably kill if they get a chance) I figured that it would be good to shoot a doe so I did. I enjoyed the challenge and whe will taste good too.

[TSPham]

QDM is not about just killing does, but about controlling population or balancing sex ratios.

You should ask yourself if your area is overpopulated; if it is, what number of does need to be killed (in southern Michigan, it's probably NOT ENOUGH). Typically a 40% doe harvest is needed to keep populations from ballooning. That's an incredible number when you think about the deer you see in southern Michigan. The math is there and spelled out in good books as well as on this forum....dig a little more into this to see if you doubt those numbers.

Here's a some cut/paste from Charles Alsheimer as well as other people I would consider educated enough on this to trust:

Q: Many hunters think that it is wrong to harvest does because more does will result in more buck fawns? Is this wrong?
A: Unfortunately, this is a flawed assumption. Each deer eats between one and two tons of food per year, so the land can only support a certain number of deer. When the doe population is protected, it generally means that the buck population is over-pressured and over-harvested. This often forces yearlings to do most of the breeding because there are fewer older bucks in the herd. When there are too many does in an area and the buck population is limited, all of the does are not bred when they come into estrous the first time and they cycle again twenty-eight days later. Consequently, the rut is drawn out and fawns are born a month later than normal. Also, because bucks are severely stressed, their antlers tend to be stunted the following year. To prevent these things from occurring, does must be harvested in order to maintain a balanced herd.
--Charles Alsheimer

"Unfortunately, there are many places in this country where a 40 percent doe harvest is needed and hunters aren`t killing half that. If you`re going to err with a doe harvest, it`s better to kill too many than not enough. you can bring deer numbers back faster than you can revive damaged habitat"
---Dr. Harry Jacobson

"In areas with high deer densities, you need to shoot every doe you can legally harvest"
---Dr. Grant Woods

"In many areas, if you told hunters they needed to kill a quarter of their does, they would think you were crazy. However, a 25 percent doe harvest is a disaster waiting to happen in most whitetail habitats. For most regions, this number is simply too low to control annual growth."
---Charles Alsheimer

[Bob S]

I hunt southern Mich and what QDM is doing to the herd is nothing short of destorying it. I pass all young bucks and some older ones to, I don't shoot doe because every person hears about QDM and think if they go out and shoot every doe they can then they will be making big bucks.This is really funny. If you go to the Disease forum the QDM'rs are accused of stockpiling deer by not shooting enough does.

I don't know how we can be both stockpiling deer, and wiping out the herd, all at the same time.

[Wareagle1]

The concept of improving Michigan's deer herd is a growing one.

The old school premise of "shoot the first buck you see" will only slowly phase out if we promote being selective when it comes to shooting young bucks.

Kids dig the idea of shooting nice bucks. Teach them to consider taking a doe and passing on "Junior" because he needs to grow up.

I support first timers taking whatever they want but if the premise of "Let Him go, Let him grow" is properly engrained in the young persons brain - our kids (and us "boomers" too) will have a better deer herd.

[bioactive]

I hunt southern Mich and what QDM is doing to the herd is nothing short of destorying it. I pass all young bucks and some older ones to, I don't shoot doe because every person hears about QDM and think if they go out and shoot every doe they can then they will be making big bucks.What makes big bucks, there are afew things but most important is age. With every doe that is shot that is one less buck that will go into the herd and with fewer bucks going into the herd that means less bucks will make it to the next year, so by time a buck reaches 4 1/2 years of age there are alot less 4 1/2 bucks in the herd. To manage deer you need a controled harvest and until we have that we are in no way manageing are deer herd. QDM has one effect on are herd and that is less deer, both bucks and doe. QDM has to realize that most people that are in the woods are shooters and don't care about big bucks all they care about is killing and QDM just gives them the excuse to do it. If you think QDM is working then you sure don't spend much time in the woods or your hunting a lot of land with out much pressureand that makes the harvest controlled.

You are absolutely right when you say we need to control the harvest of our bucks (I think you are saying that). But your views on doe harvest are contrary to basic population biology. Niether QDM nor the DNR promote doe harvest for "making big bucks." They do so to control the size of the deer herd and make sure it stays below the carrying capacity for the region.

If you were to convince the DNR of your point of view, and we stopped killing does, and reduced the number of bucks that we kill, we would be on a super highway towards a disasterous collapse of our deer herd due to disease and starvation within a few short years here in the SLP. No matter how much you protect bucks from being killed, it is the doe that controls population growth, and the health of the herd is directly dependent on the population size and the carrying capacity of the environment. All those little bucks you want to make would be competing with each other and all the big and little does for food. Deer that don't have good nutrition don't grow big.

Have you ever heard of exponential growth? Michigan's Isle Royale Study is the classic texbook example of what happens to populations when predation falls too low. Boom and Bust! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_and_Moose_on_Isle_Royale for a brief review.

You need to take a basic biology 101 class. Really. We may be dangerously close to a tipping point in the SLP if we do not increase our doe harvest. You want to not see deer in the woods, just let the population have one or two years of doubling above carrying capacity.

[Whit1]

Have you ever heard of exponential growth? Michigan's Isle Royale Study is the classic texbook example of what happens to populations when predation falls too low. Boom and Bust! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_and_Moose_on_Isle_Royale for a brief review.

You need to take a basic biology 101 class. Really. We may be dangerously close to a tipping point in the SLP if we do not increase our doe harvest. You want to not see deer in the woods, just let the population have one or two years of doubling above carrying capacity.

The lad also needs to learn about the Kaibab Plateau in Arizona.
http://www.biologycorner.com/worksheets/kaibab.html

[Ed Spin04]

Whit, I belive the Kaibab story took place in the late 20's. It's lesson still hasn't been learned or accepted by enough of us. Sounds like the save our forests group, with no tree cutting forever, then the fires come and destroys the homes of these same tree huggers. Will we ever learn?

[Blood Dog]

I believe QDM works for those of us who can afford it. Every one knows how expensive QDM can be. The thing that works for the averge guy is MAR. The state land guy is happy because every buck let go by one hunter is not shot over the ridge. Just the fact that one has to count points saves many more legal bucks than we ever imagined. Also many less low light shots taken because have to count the points. MAR also helps the QDMer out even if the point restriction doesn't save the age class they are lookin to save, it will save some. IMO I haven't heard a good agument against QDM or MAR they both can help MI.

[Bob S]

I believe QDM works for those of us who can afford it. Every one knows how expensive QDM can be.Why does QDM have to be expensive?

[uptracker]

I don't shoot doe because every person hears about QDM and think if they go out and shoot every doe they can then they will be making big bucks.What makes big bucks, there are afew things but most important is age. With every doe that is shot that is one less buck that will go into the herd and with fewer bucks going into the herd that means less bucks will make it to the next year, so by time a buck reaches 4 1/2 years of age there are alot less 4 1/2 bucks in the herd. To manage deer you need a controled harvest and until we have that we are in no way manageing are deer herd. QDM has one effect on are herd and that is less deer, both bucks and doe. QDM has to realize that most people that are in the woods are shooters and don't care about big bucks all they care about is killing and QDM just gives them the excuse to do it. If you think QDM is working then you sure don't spend much time in the woods or your hunting a lot of land with out much pressureand that makes the harvest controlled.

I hear this every year in the EUP numerous times. Then I go out and see no signs of a rut....actually, I only heard one incident of chasing this year and the guy shot a small 7 point. A few years back though, I did see a spike mount a doe though.:rant:

As for this quote, "QDM has to realize that most people that are in the woods are shooters and don't care about big bucks all they care about is killing and QDM just gives them the excuse to do it. If you think QDM is working then you sure don't spend much time in the woods or your hunting a lot of land with out much pressure and that makes the harvest controlled.".......

Actually, the DNR found that over 56% of U.P. hunters are in favor of QDM. I would think the number would be even higher in the LP.

Read up Bowman! Try amazon.com to start. Search "whitetail deer management and biology".

[uptracker]

Why does QDM have to be expensive?

Too many people believe that they have to own over 500 acres and plant a bunch of food plots.

In all reality though, if the DNR just adopted all QDM principles Statewide with a few restrictions here and there, the whole State would benefit.....on public and private lands.

[yoopertoo]

Why does QDM have to be expensive?
Maybe we need a sticky itemizing in concise statements what QDM is, and perhaps what it is not. There seem to be a lot of discussions about what it is and isn't.

[yoopertoo]

In all reality though, if the DNR just adopted all QDM principles Statewide with a few restrictions here and there, ...
Which ones should it not adopt?

[stoneycreekhabitatspecial]

Maybe we need a sticky itemizing in concise statements what QDM is, and perhaps what it is not. There seem to be a lot of discussions about what it is and isn't.

Absolutely, a lot of educated and uneducated people post and respond multiple times to questions on QDM on this forum that seem to get beat to death. The QDMA site has great info on the four cornerstones of QDM, there is an unlimited amount of info from Dr.'s and researchers all across the country that could be cut and pasted too.

I would think between BobS, BigT, Whit and others a pretty informative sticky could be created. We are all here to learn and educate ourselves and having one central thread would be a great way to do it.

[Nick Adams]

Actually, the DNR found that over 56% of U.P. hunters are in favor of QDM.

MARS=QDM?

-na

[Bob S]

Maybe we need a sticky itemizing in concise statements what QDM is, and perhaps what it is not. There seem to be a lot of discussions about what it is and isn't.What is Quality Deer Management? (http://www.qdma.com/qdm/)

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

QDM guidelines are formulated according to property-specific objectives, goals, and limitations. Participating hunters enjoy both the tangible and intangible benefits of this approach. Pleasure can be derived from each hunting experience, regardless if a shot is fired. What is important is the chance to interact with a well-managed deer herd that is in balance with its habitat. A side benefit is the knowledge that mature bucks are present in the herd - something lacking on many areas under traditional deer management. When a quality buck is taken on a QDM area, the pride can be shared by all property hunters because it was they who produced it by allowing it to reach the older age classes which are necessary for large bodies and antlers.

[uptracker]

Which ones should it not adopt?

I wasn't talking in negatives really, just that some areas need more does taken than others...that all. Smaller DMU's would help tremendously though.