Who would give up their Buck hunting rights???

[bigdaddypife]

Now before you go Nutz!!!! Hear me out. Some of us are serious big buck hunters. Some not so serious and some....well you get the point. Deep down inside we all want that great big one, and after my Oklahoma trip, I am an official "SloB Hunter". The adrenaline you get from having a P&Y so close to you is satisfying on so many levels. But the reason that most hunters don't get this feeling is that they haven't had the opportunity. Now, there are the people who could shoot a deer that grosses 175" and go out the next week and shoot a spike. I think they might be considered outliers or anomolies, but in any case, I think we have a majority consencus who would like to see some sort of mindset that favors sparing the 1.5's and 2.5's and filling just a wee bit more doe tags. I think a buck lottery could jump start that trend. Of course, some will shoot bucks regardless of a lottery tag or not. The tag would have an antler restriction of course(3 on one side, etc.) So I put it to the masses for your feedback

[Fred Bear]

not a bad idea but the DNR would never go for it. I for one would like to see some of our bucks to "grow up"

[jdub]

I like where you are going but something like that would never fly here in MI. I know exactly where you are coming from, after hunting IL the past two years and seeing more 3.5 year old or older deer in 7 days then in 3 years of hunting here in MI. I think an earn a buck would be a good start for the MI DNR.

MI has such a rich heritage when it comes to hunting its going to be very hard to change peoples ways. To many, if it has horns its a bigger accomplishment than shooting a doe, that mindset is hard to change for a lot of people. I'm not bashing anyone who shoots young bucks, I've shot my share in my career.

I think the biggest thing this state has going for it right now (at least in the southern part of the state) is the growing number of Co Op's popping up and hunters that own good chunks of land just practicing some sort of deer management on their own. I really believe that if we want to see bigger deer here in MI, these Co Op's are key. I've seen the results from one of the largest ones down here in Hillsdale cty this year and it's very impressive.

[swampbuck]

this should be interesting.:coolgleam

[bigdaddypife]

I like where you are going but something like that would never fly here in MI. I know exactly where you are coming from, after hunting IL the past two years and seeing more 3.5 year old or older deer in 7 days then in 3 years of hunting here in MI. I think an earn a buck would be a good start for the MI DNR.

MI has such a rich heritage when it comes to hunting its going to be very hard to change peoples ways. To many, if it has horns its a bigger accomplishment than shooting a doe, that mindset is hard to change for a lot of people. I'm not bashing anyone who shoots young bucks, I've shot my share in my career.

I think the biggest thing this state has going for it right now (at least in the southern part of the state) is the growing number of Co Op's popping up and hunters that own good chunks of land just practicing some sort of deer management on their own. I really believe that if we want to see bigger deer here in MI, these Co Op's are key. I've seen the results from one of the largest ones down here in Hillsdale cty this year and it's very impressive.

You bet, and I think we have a good genentic here also. I personally believe we could have lots of sub 200" bucks running around in 8 to 10 years, but Im afraid that only a handful exist now

[2PawsRiver]

I understand the "Big Buck" Concept as well as ones choice to only shoot big bucks, but the part that is lost on me is that if we structured hunting so that we increase the number of Big Buck, then they become so what.

If you see a wallhanger every day or even a few times a year then taking one isn't such an accomplishment.

I don't hunt real hard and I manage a wall hanger about every three or four years and it's pretty exciting. Plus I can't afford to have a wall hanger mounted every year.:D

Even with the current "Michigan" mind set, the taking of younger bucks, the alleged mishandling of the herd by DNR, the bad neighbors, the lack of QDM, and all the other "Blah Blah Blah" great bucks are taken in Michigan every year. Many are posted right here on the site and we are just a minute percentage of the Michigan hunters.

If somebody wants a great Michigan Buck, all they have to do is go out and hunt one, it may not be easy, may require some effort and you may not get one every time, but when you do, it's great.:D

[bigdaddypife]

I understand the "Big Buck" Concept as well as ones choice to only shoot big bucks, but the part that is lost on me is that if we structured hunting so that we increase the number of Big Buck, then they become so what.

If you see a wallhanger every day or even a few times a year then taking one isn't such an accomplishment.

I don't hunt real hard and I manage a wall hanger about every three or four years and it's pretty exciting. Plus I can't afford to have a wall hanger mounted every year.:D

Even with the current "Michigan" mind set, the taking of younger bucks, the alleged mishandling of the herd by DNR, the bad neighbors, the lack of QDM, and all the other "Blah Blah Blah" great bucks are taken in Michigan every year. Many are posted right here on the site and we are just a minute percentage of the Michigan hunters.

If somebody wants a great Michigan Buck, all they have to do is go out and hunt one, it may not be easy, may require some effort and you may not get one every time, but when you do, it's great.:D

You could not be anymore wrong. Not that many and thats why we do not attract out of state hunters. Ask any guide or rancher if he still gets pumped when he see's a booner- do think they say, "nah-see them all the time". I hate restrictions but we have a resource that is not seeing its potential

[gunfun13]

I voted no. I don't believe a lottery is necessary, and I probably wouldn't be too happy if I didn't draw a buck tag some years. A simple one buck rule would do wonders for us and I would be in favor of that.

[2PawsRiver]

No, I'm not wrong, we just have a difference in opinion. Mine is based on my 36 years of Deer hunting, as well as the people I hunt with. My opinions aren't based on that of an out of stater, a guide, or a rancher.:)

Get back with me in about twenty years.;)

[Pinefarm]

This thread is titled...Who would give up their Buck hunting rights???


First define "buck hunting RIGHTS".

What right is there for hunters to always be guaranteed any particular tag, statewide?

FWIW, the sole purpose of any possible/potential MDNR restrictions of buck tags will have nothing to do with "creating" big bucks and everything to do with forcing more hunters to kill more antlerless deer. So don't confuse restricting buck tags with trophy hunting. Although, more "trophy" deer would be an indirect benefit of a more balanced herd.

[U of M Fan]

I voted no. I don't believe a lottery is necessary, and I probably wouldn't be too happy if I didn't draw a buck tag some years. A simple one buck rule would do wonders for us and I would be in favor of that.
I agree.

[jdub]

I understand the "Big Buck" Concept as well as ones choice to only shoot big bucks, but the part that is lost on me is that if we structured hunting so that we increase the number of Big Buck, then they become so what.

If you see a wallhanger every day or even a few times a year then taking one isn't such an accomplishment.

I don't hunt real hard and I manage a wall hanger about every three or four years and it's pretty exciting. Plus I can't afford to have a wall hanger mounted every year.:D

Even with the current "Michigan" mind set, the taking of younger bucks, the alleged mishandling of the herd by DNR, the bad neighbors, the lack of QDM, and all the other "Blah Blah Blah" great bucks are taken in Michigan every year. Many are posted right here on the site and we are just a minute percentage of the Michigan hunters.

If somebody wants a great Michigan Buck, all they have to do is go out and hunt one, it may not be easy, may require some effort and you may not get one every time, but when you do, it's great.:D

Sorry but I have to respectfully and totally disagree with you on this point. In order for somebody to "go out and hunt one" there has to be more than a couple in the county and a lot of places that just isn't the case. Sure, some michigan hunters score great bucks on a regular basis, but those guys are few and far between when you compare MI to other states that have better management practices through their licensing and regulations. I think I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:


2004 Ratio of Pope and Young bucks per licensed hunter


Kansas 1 in 149
Iowa 1 in197
Illinois 1 in 297
Wisconsin 1 in 493
Missouri 1 in 694
Indiana 1 in 763
Michigan 1 in 5166

[bigdaddypife]

No, I'm not wrong, we just have a difference in opinion. Mine is based on my 36 years of Deer hunting, as well as the people I hunt with. My opinions aren't based on that of an out of stater, a guide, or a rancher.:)

Get back with me in about twenty years.;)

As soon as I get done hanging all of my P&Y's from my out of state hunts to lands of unpressured hunting and concern for age structure:)

[bigdaddypife]

This thread is titled...Who would give up their Buck hunting rights???


First define "buck hunting RIGHTS".

What right is there for hunters to always be guaranteed any particular tag, statewide?

FWIW, the sole purpose of any possible/potential MDNR restrictions of buck tags will have nothing to do with "creating" big bucks and everything to do with forcing more hunters to kill more antlerless deer. So don't confuse restricting buck tags with trophy hunting. Although, more "trophy" deer would be an indirect benefit of a more balanced herd.

Nobody would be "forced" to do anything. You could actually shoot a doe, like so many won't or get lucky with the draw. There is no Marxism here, and am not advocating such, or any attempt of the DNR to cull the doe herd, this thread is strictly to advance the age class of the bucks, I don't know how more "directly" that can be.

As far as I'm concerned-I have willfully given up my buck hunting "priveledges" in hopes that my decisions have a positive effect on the 1.5's running around, and my question is always answered by about 8 am on November 15th, when I've counted 100 shots. Just like clockwork, and I know they're not filling doe tags

[elvis]

no way, taking the fun right out of hunting, I'm all for letting them grow

some people should join a big buck elitist group, this is why peta hates hunters so much, its meat that you eat, antlers just make it more exciting

[kerby1]

I am not so quick to want to give up my current rights and opportunties. I may be an idealist, but I love having the option of taking two deer, and believe that we are moving in the right direction and that education about QDM is a better answer.

I may be wrong, so please do not put much weight into the following comment, but I believe I read somewhere in the past that very few hunters utilize their second tags and the harvest related to the second tags is statistically not significant.

If that is accurate, it can be looked at two ways, the first is why have two licenses if the second is not statistically significant. The second is that few may be used, but MI hunters are willing to harvest smaller animals with their first tag, because they know they have a second tag.

It would be hard for me to adjust if I had a chance at a real nice 8 or 10 point early in bow season to know that I would be done for the year from a buck perspective. Maybe this is selfish. I currently hunt in Saginaw County, see great numbers of deer and many bucks. Couple of years ago I was hunting in Alger area. The group would take one or two bucks a year and mostly little threes and fours and during gun if you saw a buck and passed you most likely would not get another chance.

In a long-winded fashion, I guess I think there are other options and management techniques that do not cause us to give up our current options. I would like to see management plans by the DNR on a county by county, or smaller unit basis, as different areas have drastically different issues, rather than three zones for one idea. Just my two cents. Good thoughts by all.

[Pinefarm]

A good question would be who would support a lottery for a 2nd buck tag, possibly restricted by points, by county?

[bigdaddypife]

A good question would be who would support a lottery for a 2nd buck tag, possibly restricted by points, by county?

good until you look at the statistics and figure out how many of the bucks are killed total as a function of what tag. 90% killed with first tag, meaning that 90% of the bucks killed are the first buck that season for that hunter, so a second tag restriction might not have that much affect. I thought you were a supporter of 1 buck only anyway, not getting greedy are ya:)

[Wendy]

I would be for a 1 buck limit per year, with antler restrictions. At least that way the younger one's would have a chance to develope.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't Kansas deer almost extinct? They are coming back big and strong because they've not been hunted until not too long ago.

[dabarra3]

Why can't i just use what little time i get off of work to go out and enjoy myself in the public land woods i hunt and just harvest whatever legal deer I choose?

[bigdaddypife]

Why can't i just use what little time i get off of work to go out and enjoy myself in the public land woods i hunt and just harvest whatever legal deer I choose?

You just said it "whatever legal deer I choose", so if you could shoot only does that year becuase you didn't draw a buck tag, you would not go to the woods?

[Nealbopper]

You should get two tags, One for a doe and one for a Buck. Once you shoot a doe you get your tag punched allowing you to shoot your buck. This should even out the herd. If this practice was paralleld with QDM
practice the heard would be outstanding.

[dabarra3]

where i hunt no doe tags are available, if that were the case I would be out there either way, it's about the experience.

[fishx65]

No, I would not like to see a buck lottery. I'm a firm believer that a 3 on a side rule for all buck tags would be the smoothest way to satisfy most hunters and the DNR's pocket book in this state. I've said this before on other threads, I think the tag change in the U.P. was an easy step in the right direction without ruffling to many feathers.

[buck37]

You just said it "whatever legal deer I choose", so if you could shoot only does that year becuase you didn't draw a buck tag, you would not go to the woods?

Nope, I wouldn't. I would be force to hunt out of state if all I could shoot were does. Now, I kill does every year, but big buck hunting take up most of my time.

[Ieatantlers]

A lottery for residents is out of the question. Michigan would lose way too much money. There are much better options-earn a buck, one buck tag (and double the price), etc.

Having sold hunting licenses for years, it saddens me how ignorant a majority of hunters are. When it was rumored licenses would be doubled I heard "well i just won't tag it" or "there is the state going after more money". Well, the DNR hasn't raised tags in so long its overdue. And after the voting a couple years back, all of that money will go back into the DNR. I would love to see more DNR officers, better land management, etc. I would willingly pay more for buck tags-with point restrictions- just from the benefit it would have to our outdoors- this coming from a student/worker who doesn't exactly have the money to throw away.

[augustus0603]

Sorry but I have to respectfully and totally disagree with you on this point. In order for somebody to "go out and hunt one" there has to be more than a couple in the county and a lot of places that just isn't the case. Sure, some michigan hunters score great bucks on a regular basis, but those guys are few and far between when you compare MI to other states that have better management practices through their licensing and regulations. I think I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:


2004 Ratio of Pope and Young bucks per licensed hunter


Kansas 1 in 149
Iowa 1 in197
Illinois 1 in 297
Wisconsin 1 in 493
Missouri 1 in 694
Indiana 1 in 763
Michigan 1 in 5166


I would like to see the number of licensed hunters in each of those states compared to Michigan. I don't believe this stat is entirely accurate without those numbers.

[duxdog]

I voted no. I don't believe a lottery is necessary, and I probably wouldn't be too happy if I didn't draw a buck tag some years. A simple one buck rule would do wonders for us and I would be in favor of that.


1 buck rule. HOOOOORAYYYYYY!! Someone said it. It's so simple.

Also- youth hunt should be does only
EAS should be eliminated and kept towards the end of the season

....and boy would the bucks grow and become more hunter friendly (if there is such a thing LOL)

[soggybtmboys]

700,000 plus too many deer in the State and you want to restrict the buck harvest. Gotta be joking.:rolleyes:
Hunter numbers being down considerably to boot, guys and gals need to be putting the smack down on deer period. If we don't the general public will start telling us how we are gonna hunt, and not govern ourselves.....including bringing professionals in to slaughter the herd....our herd, just as they have in some metro parks.

[swampbuck]

we used to have a 1 buck tag. There may have been a second for archery but there was not many of those around then.

I dont recall a bunch of monster bucks running around back then do you?

[2PawsRiver]

Wonder what the hunter to P&Y Buck ratio is here.:D

http://www.kingsmanorwhitetails.com/about.html

[jdub]

we used to have a 1 buck tag. There may have been a second for archery but there was not many of those around then.

I dont recall a bunch of monster bucks running around back then do you?

So you are saying by changing regulations to force an increase in the doe harvest and decrease in the buck harvest, we would not see more mature bucks in the field? So are you saying QDm does not work?

[maliki]

I don't think Michigan will ever have a chance to produce Big Bucks like the other notable states. We have to many once-a-year hunters that head up to the woods on the opener of the firearm deer season, and I bet we have more public access than other states.

Most of these hunters do not have the time to hunt every weekend, like most of us on this forum do, so they'll shoot the first deer to walk by - which is usually a doe or small buck.

I can't blame these hunters for doing this, it's their right. If I was in there shoes I'd do the same thing. Who would want to come home empty handed if you only hunt once-a-year?

[Barry]

I didn't vote because I didn't like two choices. I don't care for the the deer lottery concept but would be willing to accept restrictions to increase the buck-doe ratio. Require me to take a doe to earn a buck or antler restrictions but don't take away my opportunity to be in the woods pursuing a buck each year.

A lottery would change the culture of deer hunting much as it changed the culture of bear hunting where most hunters hire a guide. While I didn't like it when bear hunting went to a lottery and guiding became the norm, I understand it was necessary. At the time the bear lottery was established, the DNR did not know much about the bear population and a system was needed to prevent anti-hunters from attacking bear hunting. The state has adaquate systems in place to control the deer population and the lottery is only one of many choices acceptable choices to improve deer quality.

[Liv4Trappin]

Yes, I would love to see Michigan do something to help the age structure of bucks. As it stands right now, it's crap....plain and simple! I've been to many different states and yes, it's crap here. Some guys will say different, but most probably have yet to hunt out of state. I'm as proud as the next of my home state, but the simple fact is the age structure of bucks here is crap!

Mike

[MI-Dan]

I think Michigan has the potential to produce bucks that would rival any state. Every year a few big boys get taken.

You will never get a majority of the deer hunters to agree on statewide changes or even if it's needed, but there is definitely a demand for large deer and big racks. Why couldn't the state put aside 20 or 30 thousand acres and manage it strictly for trophy hunting. I know there would be a lot of hurdles but the benefits, for the area that has it, would be great.

[Wishn I was fishn]

Didn't vote. Not in favor of either. Would support EAB or OBR.

[flinch]

Completely pointless to even talk about it. What do you do about the majority of the state that has little or no anterless permits. If a hunter doesn't draw a buck tag, they just don't hunt that year? Also, does anybody here really believe that there is any new idea that the DNR/NRC hasn't already thought about or discussed? The real question should be why the DNR/NRC hasn't made any significant changes in the last 15 years aside from the new buck regs in the UP. It's because they are clinging to the little revenue they get now. No significant changes can be made unless the revenue stream can be maintained. A lottery for buck tags would be the last step they would take.

[Joe Archer]

There is already a restricted tag, and the buck to do ratio in my area seemed very skewed this year. In ten days in November I got to see two doe, a doe fawn, and 12 different bucks (all age classes) including one button. The over the counter doe permits, with late and early doe seasons can really mess things up in a hurry on State land. We definitely don;t need to limit buck harvest in my neck of the woods for quite some time.
<----<<<

[Luv2hunteup]

I favor the current system; some of us don't have a problem shooting 3.5 year old bucks nearly every year. In Michigan I've shot 11 bucks that were aged by the DNR at 3 to 3.5 years of age, all have been killed since 11/15/96. My youngest daughter is 17 and has shot 2 @ 2.5 years and 1 @ 3.5 years of age.

The UP has decent age structure but it's too bad that the growing season is so darn short. The short growing season really impacts antler growth. The snow at camp is already between my knees and crotch and the yarding migration has already begun. :( I fully expect that muzzleloading season at camp will be a bust.

[bigdaddypife]

Yes, I would love to see Michigan do something to help the age structure of bucks. As it stands right now, it's crap....plain and simple! I've been to many different states and yes, it's crap here. Some guys will say different, but most probably have yet to hunt out of state. I'm as proud as the next of my home state, but the simple fact is the age structure of bucks here is crap!

Mike

Exactly, so is it just so hard to answer the question of why michigan is not a top state for producing and harvesting mega-bucks? We should have them coming out of our ears. Why do our hunters long to go to places like Pike county, Buffalo county, texas ans Saskatchewan if according to some, our hunting is just fine?

[bigdaddypife]

There is already a restricted tag, and the buck to do ratio in my area seemed very skewed this year. In ten days in November I got to see two doe, a doe fawn, and 12 different bucks (all age classes) including one button. The over the counter doe permits, with late and early doe seasons can really mess things up in a hurry on State land. We definitely don;t need to limit buck harvest in my neck of the woods for quite some time.
<----<<<

Then wouldn't it seem logical that the state needs to have a comprehensive makeover when it comes to it's management. How can other states do it and michigan can't? How many of those bucks you saw were 3.5 years or older?

[willy05]

you are all nuts in what other state with these trophies all over can you hunt in muzzleloading season for three weeks with a scoped ml, in what state can you hunt for two months with a bow, and which one of these states can you get early and handi capped hunts, early and late antlerless seasons, the problem is people have too much time to pressure deer and harvest them, shorten these seasons up. The dnr is not the brightest around the pheasant pop is low, so why not open a season in dec when they are easy pickens, ect. And where I hunt for the past 25 years when they started shooting all these dose its hard to find any mature does, and the more does they shoot, trust me I see far fewer bucks, but hey thats just my 2cents. for a heathy herd I do not think haveing all young does is good either.

[Sparky23]

While I hunt p&Y's and pass on nearly anything else, and I wouldnt mind seeing 1 buck tag or both have too be 4 points or better on one side. How can you compare Iowa or ILL or Kansas, They are less presuured for more reasons then just people with good qdm. Go try to find a spot to hunt that isnt leased there. The number of hunters in michigan is double to those states, we sell more tags then almost any other state if I am not mistaken. I have been to Pike county and hunted with a buddy who guides it and every single peice of land huntable is leased by outfitters, so is that what you want to see in Michigan, so basically you have to pay to shoot a buck. NO THANKS, some cant afford it. Also go try to find as much state and public lands in any of the mentioned states as we are fortunate enough to have in Michigan. The bucks are here in alot higher numbers then most people think. Go shine in sept. I know of at least 5 feilds that any givin night will have 8-12 P&Y's in one feild, they are on every property in southern Michigan, as 2Paws said you just need to hunt them.

[bowhuntr81]

I didn't take time to read all these posts, so if this has been said I didn't read it. Anyway, I voted no. I do not want to see a lottery draw for antlered tags. However, I would be very much in favor of the "Earn A Buck" method such as they have in Wisconsin. What I've read so far of it, I like. You must shoot a doe first and that "EARNS" you the right at a buck tag the next season. I have no problems with this concept and would favor EAB over lottery draw ANY day! I'd also support a one buck rule.

[harpo1]

Them big bucks are too hard to drag with them big antlers getting caught on everything! The spike horns and does just glide right through the brush! :lol: Settle down boys! Just trying to inject a little humor here.

As with others, I did not vote on this. I agree that something could be done about the herd quality here in MI. But whatever way the State Government can generate the most revenue is what we're going to have to deal with. As for out of state hunts..... I live right here in Central MI. and cannot justify the money to make numerous trips out of state just for a set of antlers to hang on the wall. I'll just continue to do my part to try and let the smaller ones walk and shoot my share of does each year.

[Trim-Tab06]

What are we going to do to the spots that just don't have big bucks? Last year me and my brother let all the 1.5 year olds go in hopes of a 3.5. The place we hunt has them I have seen them in the past few years but that place is not known for big bucks and we do are part in taking a few does each year. And another thing what are we going to do with all the 2.5 that will never amount to anything that you don't want breeding.

[Llewellin]

I don't like either of the two choices either. Although, I am a meat hunter and have never practiced QDM, I usually always take a big doe first. This happens mostly because they are the first to walk by and I want the meat. I would be in favor of the earn a buck rule. The only way the DNR will get accurate numbers is by actually checking deer and by issueing a doe tag to all hunters, making them bring in that doe to get a buck tag would be a good way to get accurate numbers, and keep a lot of small bucks from being shot. I don't know its just a thought.

[6inchtrack]

Sorry but I have to respectfully and totally disagree with you on this point. In order for somebody to "go out and hunt one" there has to be more than a couple in the county and a lot of places that just isn't the case. Sure, some michigan hunters score great bucks on a regular basis, but those guys are few and far between when you compare MI to other states that have better management practices through their licensing and regulations. I think I'll let the numbers speak for themselves:


2004 Ratio of Pope and Young bucks per licensed hunter


Kansas 1 in 149
Iowa 1 in197
Illinois 1 in 297
Wisconsin 1 in 493
Missouri 1 in 694
Indiana 1 in 763
Michigan 1 in 5166


Do you know how many license's were sold in all these states

[Stix]

If ya like big bucks go to a state where they are. Hunting deer is for food. When ya hunt ducks ya hunt for food. Most other animals for food.

Deer are no different. They are for food. People that want the lottery would bitch just as much if they never get picked to shoot one. I can hear it now. You mat say " No i wouldnt" now but when ya do not get one hahaha what a piss and moan fest that would be.


Again deer are for food. Manage the heard. Reduce numbers. Not about big bucks.

[CHASINEYES]

I dont like either choice. I know of 3 different people filling others buck tags, yep lowlifes. 1 hunter shot 4 bucks and wounded another in the gagetown state game area. The other 2 are brothers, they have shot 2 1.5 yr bucks each and not one of those bucks would meet the restricted tag requirements. I do not hang out with any of these slobs, I just worked with one until he was laid off.

[SNAREMAN]

NO,on any more AR'S,OBR,EAB or a lottery system.Also,I hope the 3pt. rule in the U.P. end's soon.I see nothing wrong with keeping the reg.'s the way they are (again,once the 3pt. rule is dropped)Not enough (in your opinion) "TROPHY" deer in mi.,don't let the door hit ya on the way out:D

[frostbite]

trophy bucks are nice to shoot and I have taken my share--I have also shot my share of basket racks and a few doe. I am against earning my right to shoot a buck by shooting a doe as I feel I have earned my right by purchasing a licence for the last 32 years, respecting the animal and the land I hunt and paying my state taxes year in and year out like most everybody else. I bet a few farmers would say they earned their rights by feeding the deer year in and year out.
Lottery you say? well your a trophy hunter right? draw and harvest a Michigan bull elk in the next twenty years. Thats a challenge for ya. I bet you don't even draw a bull elk tag in the next twenty years. That's how I feel about your buck lottery:D
I had to pass on a 4 point this year in the U.P. that drawrfed my 15" spread 8 point. That's right I had to pass on a 3.5 or 4.5 (guestimate) year old 4 point that had one heck of a rack on him. I am sure this buck was not what the DNR had in mind with the restrictions, never the less I passed him up and it killed me to do so, but thats what it is about here in Michigan. Being in the right spot at the right time when Mr. big walks in and being lucky enough to have everything go right.
I look at Michigan trophy hunters as being some of the best trophy hunters in the country since they have a much larger challenge on their hands. Their are big bucks here in Mi. do your home work and go get em or go the easy route and travel elsewere like Iowa or BC. Did I mention the meat hunting in Mi. is awesome as well? The combo tag has so much to offer everybody doesn't it? Then you can go and kill a few doe if you like. We have more deer than most any other state, ain't it woinderful?
Jesus freaking cripes what more can you ask for:dizzy:

Further more If The task were put on me to absolutely eliminate the heard and grow larger antlered bucks I would eliminate the taking of bucks altogether for two-four years (depending on county)thus eliminating the heard by taking does only and allowing bucks to enter their 4th year and beyond. The U.P. would be a bigger challenge however since the wolves do not care if they have hornes or not.

[Baybum]

I voted no. I do not like the idea of imposing regulations upon what deer people can harvest or a buck lottery which would inevitably weaken our hunter numbers. I routinely pass on bucks younger than 3.5 but I also get to hunt a lot of days and have a pretty good spot to hunt. Sure on our prop and a couple props bordering us no one shoots small bucks and we have seen great improvement the last couple years in buck size/quality but that was our choice. I hope people in my area pass on smaller bucks like I do as many have good potential but I do not think I am any better/worse of a hunter/person if they do not. I'm just happy to see people out taking advantage of our resources and if shooting a young buck puts a smile on their face then so be it. There aren't too many things that put a smile on peoples faces like that anymore. Hunting in Michigan is tradition and recreation, its not about the trophies. A lot of folks around here also rely on the meat to feed their families. I also worry about how many deer will be left in the woods to rot if antler restrictions are put in place, mistakes do happen with as many casual hunters as we have in our state. I have chosen to only take mature bucks here in Michigan and it will make it all that much sweeter when I do knowing the work I put in. Until then I will still enjoy all my time in the woods regardless of what type of deer are around me.

[oldrank]

I believe the buck herd on public land may need a little tweeking but I believe the private land buck herd is doing just fine so I voted NO

[deere318]

I vote yes to at least a 1 buck rule.I tell ya I have been hunting the same area for 16yrs now.farmland in ottawa county.close to the delphi plant to give you an idea.in 16yrs I have taken quite a few bucks.and 2 real nice ones.one 10pt with a 22 1/4in spread and a 12pt with 11 1/4in tines.the last one was in about 2000 or 2001.i have not seen another deer like that since.i have noticed there are alot more hunters in the area now though too.exspecially bow hunting.oh and the 10 was aged at 3 or 3.5 and the 12 was aged at 2 to 2.5!!!! I have pics I should post.the numbers around where I'm at has gone down BIG TIME!!!! its get real sickning to out for 3 or 4 times in a row now and see nothing!!! not even a dang fawn.I think the youth hunt should be done for only does or not at all.its all about the money!!!!! I did have the luck of taking a doe opening morning and did.if i didn't would have been 3yrs now with no deer.I know that isn't all that long but i used to get a buck and doe every year.but I now have other plans of spots to check out and I'm gonna.gotta do something.I don't know if any of you guys have been around the TODD farm before but if you get the chance to take a drive around it in southern MI it will blow your mind.take some binoculars and a camera.i seen a pic of 3 bucks together in a hay field a guy at work took this year in AUG.and I tell ya I don't know how old they where but I would bet at least 3.5yr olds.and i about pissed my pants!!!! these things where just fricking HUGE!!! they would have stumped some of the bucks you see on TV hunting shows from ILL ECT.I"m serious.but they get that big there because you can't hunt it.its a fedral water fowl reserve but gives you a idea how big of bucks could be around any where in the areas you hunt.

[symen696]

Well this should anger some people off but hey. Let him go, shoot a doe.... I sat and watched 36 does opening morning then 42 this past Saturday morning. Mean while I seen a spike and a four point in all this time.
This state need to even out our herd. If the only reason you hunt is for the head of the deer and you just throw away the meat...never mind thats just dumb....

[bigdaddypife]

Well this should piss some people off but hey. Let him go, shoot a doe.... I sat and watched 36 does opening morning then 42 this past Saturday morning. Mean while I seen a spike and a four point in all this time.
This state need to even out our herd. If the only reason you hunt is for the head of the deer and you just throw away the meat...never mind thats just dumb....

But according to some, the deer are just fine here and we shouldn't tinker with anything and they should be able to let doe after doe walk and shoot the small bucks. IN their eyes, any buck is a good buck. It seems no one cares, but a couple years of them not getting bucks and their tune might change. I just haven't figured out the whole mentality of waiting and waiting and waiting for a buck when you could take a doe or two and let the spikes and 4 points turn into 10's and 12's. If these guys just had the "patience" and "unselfishness" to wait a year or two or three and HELP, not just gorge themselves.

[SNAREMAN]

So,if a guy take's one small buck a year he is "gourging" himself?:dizzy: Know what I can't figure-out,it's why you(and the rest of your QDM buddy's)think you have the right to force your veiw's on the rest of us.

[ridgewalker]

Know this will make some enemies, but definitely no. Love that tender bambi and mrs doe meat! Just kidding we shoot young bucks but not that young. Pretty soon we will have a rule guide book the size of the Detroit telephone directory if we keep suggesting unnecessary and useless rules. The old bucks are smart enough to stay around and there are more left than anyone thinks. This may change as they cannot now easily regain weight after the rut thanks to the ingenius baiting and feeding ban.

[bigdaddypife]

So,if a guy take's one small buck a year he is "gourging" himself?:dizzy: Know what I can't figure-out,it's why you(and the rest of your QDM buddy's)think you have the right to force your veiw's on the rest of us.

I was just like you once, shot everything I saw, as long as it had bone, I owned it. But I always wondered about a certain couple of guys who always seemed to see twice as many bucks and always seemed to be getting hefty 8's and 10's every year. I talked to them and all they said was-"ya know, keep shooting them small bucks and you'll never see anything bigger than what you've been getting." So, know after a couple of years of this, I can easily see 15 different bucks throughout bow season. I am seeing the bigger 2.5 8 points and have good sign of bigger ones. My question to you is this, could you ever show the patience to let a small buck go?? Those guys never forced anything on me-I just pulled my head from my rear and understood that every small buck hangin in my garage would NEVER grow old. So, do you have what it takes to let a small one go??

[SNAREMAN]

Yep,passed-up MANY buck's over the year's.Both before and after i'd filled my first tag.Also passed buck's that I could have tagged with my 2tag (small 7's 8's)but,that don't give me,you or anyone else the right to tell other's THEY have to pass'em too.If hunting only mature buck's is what get's you into the outdoor's/get's the heart pumping then great,I wish you the best of luck.Manage your hunting land the way you see fit.But don't think you have the right to force your veiw's on other's.I really hope that,in your eye's,i'm a good hunter.I'd really like to be able to get to sleep tonight:rolleyes:

[bucketmouthhauler]

The old bucks are smart enough to stay around and there are more left than anyone thinks. This may change as they cannot now easily regain weight after the rut thanks to the ingenius baiting and feeding ban.

I am totally sure that without nitwits throwing down baitpiles,the exhausted deer are all going to expire during the long cold winter. If this were the case it would have happened a very, very, long time ago(way before you and your gramps dumped carrots and called it hunting). If hunting for meat is what you want? Than the earn a buck is for you!, If you desire venison,?Whatfaster easier way to fill the freezer than to harvest a doe. If you are man enough to extend your hunting season and hunt for the meat with a coat rack attached after your doe harvest than you deserve to do so,and you have done your part to control the deer population. It takes a man to harvest a doe for meat, cause in reality, who's impressed with your 4pt?:confused::)

[bigdaddypife]

Yep,passed-up MANY buck's over the year's.Both before and after i'd filled my first tag.Also passed buck's that I could have tagged with my 2tag (small 7's 8's)but,that don't give me,you or anyone else the right to tell other's THEY have to pass'em too.If hunting only mature buck's is what get's you into the outdoor's/get's the heart pumping then great,I wish you the best of luck.Manage your hunting land the way you see fit.But don't think you have the right to force your veiw's on other's.I really hope that,in your eye's,i'm a good hunter.I'd really like to be able to get to sleep tonight:rolleyes:

Again, who is forcing anything on you?? The question was, would you give up the current system to go to a buck tag lottery. Pretty simple, if you have a problem with qdm, you might want to invest in some ear muffs, it's only a matter of time before that becomes the majority-regardless of what the DNR does.:lol:

[riverroadbeagles]

Way to many hunters in this state for trophy deer to be running around everywhere. In my area which is all private the parcels keep getting split up and there are sometimes 3 hunters on a little 10 acres. I would rather shoot does than small bucks. I can only get 2 doe tags for area. My family consumes 3 deer a year. Filled my doe tags and I have yet to see a older buck so I might have to shoot a young buck because I want the meat. Give me more doe tags as It is common when the corn is off to see 20 to 30 antlerless deer a night. The pressure that is put on our deer herd has them running for there life for over 3 months. Shorten seasons and give the deer a break. What do all the so called big buck states have. Alot lower hunters than MI. Shorter gun season and most of there ml season is only a couple of days.

[jiggineyes]

I think a earn a buck system or a no-spike law would be more benefitial. I dont get many oppurtunities at bucks over 1 1/2. Only a few times have i seen mature bucks. Ive only harested 1 3 1/2 yr old buck, but several mature does. I have passed on several spikes and 4s this year but wouldnt hesitate to shoot a decent 6 if I get the oppurtunity as I usually dont see many bigger then that hunting state land. If there was laws in place to create those deer i would love them to be put in place.

[KEN WES.]

The plan of issuing buck tags might work for the slp but not the up or most of the nlp for the simple reason that if everyone who hunted up there had and filled a doe tag there would'nt be any deer left to hunt in a lot areas. a no spikes or an 8-pt or better rule would be better.
I know of more than a few people, who only saw 1-2 deer all season.
also there would be many people who would just plain quite hunting all togather.

[bucketmouthhauler]

The plan of issuing buck tags might work for the slp but not the up or most of the nlp for the simple reason that if everyone who hunted up there had and filled a doe tag there would'nt be any deer left to hunt in a lot areas. a no spikes or an 8-pt or better rule would be better.
I know of more than a few people, who only saw 1-2 deer all season.
also there would be many people who would just plain quite hunting all togather.

There is no excuse for not seeing deer in MI, I am sorry but they are everywhere. I hunt only public land, I saw 14 in crawford county yesterday, I saw over 20 in antrim county the first 2 days of rifle season. I hunted in scoolcraft last week and saw 25-30. People seem to think they can sit in any patch of woods and become a guage of the number of deer in any area.! hunt where the deer are you will see more I promise. The deer ARE NOT IN OPEN MAPLE FORESTS, OR ANYWHERE ELSE THAT MAKES THEM VISIBLE FOR PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO SHOOT 300YDS. They are in thick cover, if you are not hunting in thick cover you have no idea of the amount of deer in your area. Get with it, this is not directed too much at KEN WES, it a general towards the people explosion. rant.:)

[SNAREMAN]

Again, who is forcing anything on you?? The question was, would you give up the current system to go to a buck tag lottery. Pretty simple, if you have a problem with qdm, you might want to invest in some ear muffs, it's only a matter of time before that becomes the majority-regardless of what the DNR does.:lol:
I really doubt that,but hey,if it help's ya sleep at night:lol::lol:

[fairfax1]

In my opinion, there is absolutely no chance of traction for any proposal that is 'big buck' or 'trophy' oriented. None.

A number of posts on this long thread have posed credible reasons why: too many deer in certain DMU's; too many hunters, period; or too many one-day-per year hunters; long tradition in Michigans' hunting culture; regulatory inertia, etc.

Now, to be sure, 'big bucks' can happen as there is no genetic bottleneck -- but only if it is a by-product of some other regulatory change that has at its' core the intention to better control or reduce the herd.

EAB or OBR or buck lottery all can have the incidental benefit of allowing more males to live longer and hence become a "big buck" but the real reason for EAB or OBR is that it re-directs the targetting of any male deer to the targetting of more female deer.

And of course, there has to be policy tweaking for geography, meaning, a EAB program or a buck lottery would work best in DMU's, or zones, or districts, that have recognized overpopulation issues. EAB in some underpopulated northern DMU or northern public access lands, where the possibility of killing too many females could occur could be calamitous to the local herd.

So, I would nix any regulatory change that was intended to increase a 'trophy' element to Michigans' hunting. But, I would strongly support change that restrained the harvest of males in order to re-direct hunting efforts towards the harvest of females (geography issues duly noted).

[michiganhonkers]

no way this would happen. I would LOVE for this to happen though. To many people would be against it

[Joe Archer]

Then wouldn't it seem logical that the state needs to have a comprehensive makeover when it comes to it's management. How can other states do it and michigan can't? How many of those bucks you saw were 3.5 years or older?
Since you asked; I think the number one management priority in Michigan should be population density. You can't comprehensively manage the SLP, NLP, and UP by the same rules.
At least 4 of the twelve bucks I saw in the NLP this year were 3.5 year old or older. There was one button buck, three or four 1.5 year olds, and three or four 2.5 year olds. I would think that this is very nice age structure. Population density was probably in line with DNR goals. Doe numbers seemed to be very low. In a herd of these characteristics (12 bucks to 4 doe) I think it is best to take some bucks and leave the doe to reproduce.
Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<

[BallsRdragn]

ONE BUCK LIMIT pr hunter. Want meat get a doe tag.
Done Deal! You would see a change in 2 years. But hey I dont work for the DNR.

[Whit1]

You can't comprehensively manage the SLP, NLP, and UP by the same rules......................Wouldn't you agree?
<----<<<

Absolutely Joe.

The biggest problem IMO isn't the DNR, but rather the willingness of deer hunters to accept change. This was made perfectly clear in the mid to late '60s when they tried split opening days (firearms) for the U.P. and L.P. Other things were tried, but the majority of hunters didn't accept them.

[kotz21]

I am a fan of the earn a buck tag system. It makes sure we harvest alot of does. A few other states use this system and have had good luck with it!

[Skibum]

Absolutely Joe.

The biggest problem IMO isn't the DNR, but rather the willingness of deer hunters to accept change. This was made perfectly clear in the mid to late '60s when they tried split opening days (firearms) for the U.P. and L.P. Other things were tried, but the majority of hunters didn't accept them.

Agreed. Hunters are more afraid of what they might lose compared to what they might gain.

[jepp]

A good question would be who would support a lottery for a 2nd buck tag, possibly restricted by points, by county?

The second tag is restricted by at least 4 points on one side. How much more restriction do you want? If you want to hunt for that P&Y buck, they are out there, you just have to find them. Actually go out and hunt for them, they are not going to come to you.