South James Bay Flock

[yoda]

Has anyone out there seen the new paper Michigan Outdoor News, There is a article in the Feb, 11 2000 on goose hunting in the late season,this is great, it also touches base on just why Michigan Waterfoweler had there toes stepped on the last two seasons. here is it in a nutshell. This is what DNR Waterfowel specialist Greg Soulliere says is the reasoning behind the regulations imposed by the Feds: " Michigan is the only state that gets a substantial flight of birds from the Mississippi Vally Population (MVP) that also gets a substantial flight of geese from the South James Bay Population (SJBP),"he said. "because of that, when (the fish and wildlife service) set regulations they have to set set them by the lowest population. The MVP was estimated at 900,000 birds while the SJBP totaled only 130,000 birds,. He goes on to state that "We can't expand our regular season until the SJBP increases",. "Opening up our season could have an impact on those birds because they fly to Southern Lower Michigan and thats where most of our hunter are."
I'm just a poor old Yooper and maybe you southern folks could help me out, Do we have NoN-Local Geese wintering in southern lower Michigan?? And if so, why do we have the late season. Or could it be that the Big Hunt Clubs and Guide Services in the southern states have the FWS in there pocket, thats what it looks like to me, Just look at the seasons they received last year all expanded and hunting into January, If the Fish and Wildlife Service can show me that the SJBP is flying into Michigan and not leaving then I guess there right, we are killing to many birds, But my guess is that with the mild winters and the big refuges the birds are short stopping, the feds are being squeezed by the money and waterfowel power in the deep south that the northern boy are killing all our birds you need to fix it... Bend Over and Tie yor Shoes Michigan the feds are going to fix it,....

[Mr. 16 gauge]

yoda,
I agree with you 100%....I have been griping about this exact topic on other forums. I, too, would like to know how the DNR and U.S.F.&W.S. can tell a migrant from a local in the absence of band data. They have just recently started to collect goose parts in the last two years, and on a "voluntary basis", no less. I would not mind the shorter seasons or bag limits if it were to benefit the james bay flock, even if the jury were still out. But what bothers me is that the hunters in Ohio, indiana, Illinois, and all the southern states get goose seasons concurrent with their duck seasons....geese that flew south through MI and we were not allowed to touch! When I wrote to the DNR about this, they sent me a letter (form letter) saying that we were taking too many James bay geese, but it was never stated as to how it was determined that we were taking james bay birds as opposed to locals, or what the ratio was. Also, they gave no explanation as to why we were not allowed to harvest james bay birds, but every other state in the union was. Something here stinks, and it ain't my socks! I would suggest that everyone who is concerned about this topic write a letter to the DNR and voice your concerns--we are being shafted, and the only way we will get things changed is for a lot of people to make a lot of noise.

[yoda]

Thanks 16 gauge It's nice to know that someone else feels the same way I do

[boehr]

As far as waterfowl, the MDNR has very little say, we give the Feds what we would like, the Feds come back with what options they will give us and we get to choose (normally 2 or three different options and basically just dates) from there. You can write the MDNR all you want but the Feds still control it. That's why it is always so late to find out when and what the waterfowl seasons are going to be.

[rivrat]

I just sent the feds a letter about this very topic, why are michingan waterfowlers not allowed to hunt geese during duck season. The letter was sent along with my 1999 waterfowl survey. It will be interesting to see if they write a response back to me about this. Anyway its good to see others wondering the same thing.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Boehr,
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the Fed's base their decisions as to what we will be allowed (season and bag-wise) based on harvest data submitted by our DNR? I am told (and correct me if I am mistaken, because this is somewhat hearsay) that the DNR estimates that 18 additional geese are shot for each one that they "officially" know about. That seems kind of high to me, esp, since I have been hunting geese for several years now with poor success.

Rivrat,
I wrote the DNR with similar complaints/questions/comments, and I did recieve a letter, but it did nothing to help explain how the goose harvest figures are done, why we are considered a "production state" and can't enjoy an early teal season like Ohio, ect. I am very disappointed as I feel my attempt to get some real answers are being stonewalled, for what ever reason.

[boehr]

16 gauge...I've never heard that before, 18 geese to every one shot. But, I will do some checking with the biologist and I will post an answer.

[yoda]

boehr this is for you:For the most part I was not knocking the MDNR, I know the FEDS only give you a time frame to pick from, But look at it from a "northern waterfowel state" view. If you look at this web sight, www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/canbird/goose/goosmap.htm. (http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/canbird/goose/goosmap.htm.) it shows the path the SJBP take going south, I just catches the eastern most part of the state, a sliver at best, it then pours into Ohio and south from there. every one south of Michigan HAD at least 30 day"to hunt the SJBP" AND (if I'm not mistaken) at least 50 days to hunt the MVP flock.
I guess my question to the FEDS, Greg Soulliere and you would be WHY was Michigan not aloud to break into zones to hunt geese. check out the above sight. Tell us why we only had a 15 day season..

[boehr]

Waterfowl season, particularly Canada Geese, since that seems to be the majority of the discussion. This is a complicated explanation which pages could be wrote but I will make an attempt to summarize the best I can. I would recommend that if you have a great interest to contact the local biologist where you live and get a more detailed explanation.

Anyway, back in 1985 a pact was made with a number of other states as to the kill ratio of the different flocks. Michigan at that time had less that 20,000 goose hunters and the percentage of the goose kill was established by what was thought to be a fair number at that time (in 1999 Michigan had about 60,000 goose hunters). The kill from the different flocks was based on a number of tagged birds that were taken, using a scientific way of figuring the estimated number of total birds take from the different flocks. Those number figured in to get that percentage as stated above a fair number at that time (1985). Because of a change in the locations (especially St James Bay flock) where birds where tagged it was found that we are getting an even greater number of certain flocks that now come through Michigan. Some of the other states that had a higher percentage that Michigan in 1985 now are believed not to kill as many birds as in 1985 because of the number of hunters and the change in flights. Unfortunately those states obviously do not want to give up their higher percentage to allow other states to increase their percentages so to have a higher quota. The state, Michigan has been attempting to work on increasing the percentage of kill for the Michigan hunter but it is a slow process. Michigan will continue to attempt to increase the quota.

Until we can talk the Feds into the change of the percent of the total kill that the Feds want for Michigan, it is doubtful if the numbers will change much. So to one comment yes, it is figured on the harvest date but the biggest harvest data that the information is based on is 1985 with about 40,000 less goose hunters.

Again, for a more detailed explanation contact the local biologist. I know here in District 12 the biologist just had a meeting explaining everything about how seasons are done last Thursday near Allegan. Unfortunately 200 letters where sent out about the meeting and only about 70 people showed up. Of course after making an attempt at answering some of your concerns, I wish I would have attended the meeting too.

[yoda]

Thanks boehr, I do have a connection up here how is friends with Mr Soulliere, I'm getting things ready to give to him to see if he can get a little better understanding on how the system works again thanks for your time