Ethics vs common sense!

[Skinner 2]

OK read past post about. proper shot placements, head shots, draw weights KE needed for arrows to penatrate a deer, crossbows, handicap................. list goes on.

When does common sense kick in. AND again I will use my dad as the example.

He is 81 years old and in decent health. Still climbs ladders, hunts, fishes...Not handicapped. HOWEVER he no longer has the strength he used to. Many times now while traveling he cannot open the cap on the Thermos bottle to pour us a coffee. Well last light as we were repairing my garage roof he mentioned again not being able to pull his bow back and again needs me to lower the poundage so he can try to build his arm strength up to get to a poundage he is confortable with to cleanly harvest a deer.

He can pull over the 30lb min the New crossbow permit has, But not by a lot. He has no disabilities other then being old and weak......But THATS NOT disabilities. no permits there.

He has archery hunted from the first season Michigan has had. Hunted his whole life.

He would love to continue hunting and use a bow. He has doubts of killing power with his low poundage. I don't know of him ever taking more then a 25 yard shot at deer with a bow. I do know for the past 4 or 5 years he has let bucks walk and some does because he was NOT able the get his bow drawn. Now we have to drop down into the thirties.

How ethical is it to hunt with a weapon you don't have confidence in for consistant kills. Sure a deer can be taken with low poundage. but how many will be lost. When the .17 Remington (centerfire) came out a large grizzly was killed with it. Does this make the .17 Rem a grizzly gun????

This troubles my dad and this is what he lives for. He no longer has his wife ( My mother) around and this is how he spends his time. I will not hold him back and don't feel others should either.

As we worked on the garage roof he mentioned crossbows and for the record he has not wanted one. He still wants his compound. BUT wants to hunt. We ( him and I ) both feel if a person hunts deer with a 30 pound draw, a requirement should be to lick the arrow tip first to help it stick.

Now he is wondering what to do. Not hunt with a bow (side note he guns hunts with Muzzleloader and now has lots of trouble loading them). Or perhaps hunt with a crossbow without a permit.

IS this really a question or debate a elderly or any person show have to decide????? Sure if he decised to use said crossbow he hunts illeagle. BUT he still hunts from his ethical view. He would NOT consider himself poaching. He knows the law is against it.

He asked me what I though. GUYS HOW YOU answer this??????????????

My reply was do you want to hunt?????????????? Take a chance and get ticket. Defend your stance then fight the ticket based on age discrimination. I don't know what else to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys this is a true story! WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HIM?????????????????????

Skinner

[Joe Archer]

Guys this is a true story! WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HIM?????????????????????
Skinner
Hopefully, crossbows will be legalized for senior citizens.
Until that time I would say "Dad, take your 30 pound bow to your doctor's office and show him that you can't pull it back". ;);)
<----<<<

[zx10r2004]

poaching Examples include: Taking without a license or permit, use of a prohibited weapon or trap, taking outside of the designated time of day or year, . i would tell him to follow the law. i would call the dnr and see what they say or what can be done about a cross bow permit or add a overdraw and carbon arrows on the bow to get his arrow speed up.

[Skinner 2]

Joe,
PM sent.;).

zx10.
A overdraw and carbon arrows will do nothing. Show me an experienced adult bow hunter that would hunt deer with a 30 pound bow. Especially when they can pull double that. Sure 30lbs can kill a deer but should it be used??? When the .17 Rem first came out some guy killed a huge grizzly with it. Does this make the .17 Rem a good grizzly gun? I think not.

Skinner

[bigcountrysg]

This is the very reason why I support full inclusion of cross bows.

[Skinner 2]

This is the very reason why I support full inclusion of cross bows.

Agree bigcountrysg. Looking inot the crossbow requirement I found a min 100lb pull is required, 7/8 dia min broadhead and I belive a bolt length requirement but cannot recall it. WHY crossbow mins. but not vertical mins?????

Skinner

[soggybtmboys]

Here is an alternative that may fit his needs, without having to give his bow up or spend a ton of money on a crossbow, I beleive it is legal right now as well.

http://www.drawloc.com/

You can get a unit according to the site for 150 bucks or so, use it on his existing bow, and turn his poundage back up. Hope this helps.:)

I just watched the video, an 88 yr old man using his bow with the device, pretty neat, still shooting full size arrows and his compund bow.

[soggybtmboys]

Agree bigcountrysg. Looking inot the crossbow requirement I found a min 100lb pull is required, 7/8 dia min broadhead and I belive a bolt length requirement but cannot recall it. WHY crossbow mins. but not vertical mins?????

Skinner


Inertia problems with a shorter projectile and less mass, have to make it up with velocity and you can only do that with such a short power stroke on a crossbow by dramatically increasing the draw weight. You do not have those problems with full size arrows and a much greater power stroke of a bow.

[Skinner 2]

Inertia problems with a shorter projectile and less mass, have to make it up with velocity and you can only do that with such a short power stroke on a crossbow by dramatically increasing the draw weight. You do not have those problems with full size arrows and a much greater power stroke of a bow.

You do when the bow is only 30lbs. Heck I remember shooting squirrels and rabbits with a 30 pound bow (OK recurve but type not stated). Arrow was always stuck the them. You hunt deer and 30 pounds a person better lick the tip to help it stick.

Modified permit still needed for drawloc. and even if not OK I pull his bow back and pat him on the head and send him into the woods. He shoots at a deer and say misses OK done till I can "reload it" or say hits high and spines the deer. Deer is now bleating and crawling away! NOW what. Run ( OK walk for us) through the wood screaming for my help to again draw the bow or should he club the deer to death. Would you like to hunt this way? Would you hunt this way?

Skinner

[soggybtmboys]

I was just offering a suggestion, and if he cannot pull a bow with two hands to use the draw lock, what is he gonna do with a crossbow that is 150 lbs of pull? I was under the impression that you were saying he already owned a compound bow and it was turned down to 30 lbs. Shouldn't under estimate a bow at around 35 lbs, the new ones are generating the same power as a 45 lb bow. Lots of youngsters are taking deer with a 35lb bow, two bladed broadheads and stay off the shoulder.:)

Crossbows are bulky and awkward, but if he can manage it, by all means help him get a permit for either one crossbow or a modified bow.

[Michihunter]

Here is an alternative that may fit his needs, without having to give his bow up or spend a ton of money on a crossbow, I beleive it is legal right now as well.

http://www.drawloc.com/

You can get a unit according to the site for 150 bucks or so, use it on his existing bow, and turn his poundage back up. Hope this helps.:)

I just watched the video, an 88 yr old man using his bow with the device, pretty neat, still shooting full size arrows and his compund bow.
This is NOT legal without a modified bow/disability permit.

Skinner, Some of us our trying our best to help people such as your dad. Keep the faith and ask him to contact his Congressman. I urge you to do the same.

[skipper34]

First of all, explain what is meant by "lick the tip to make it stick". You've lost me on that one. My advice is to let him hunt with the bow that he can use, namely the 30 lb. compound. People seem to forget that there was a time not all that long ago when 30 lb. bows were more common that most think. In the days of the recurve bow for hunting purposes, I can remember that there were many, not a whole lot mind you, cases where the young hunters or the female hunters were using 30 lb bows to hunt with and believe it or not, some were successful. What it comes down to, your dad may have to be content in knowing that his hunting will be somewhat limited by the fact that his archery set-up is adequate but only at a very close range for all practical purposes. Harvesting a deer with this set-up can be done under the right conditions. It sounds to me, by the way you have described your dad, that he may well indeed be quite content hunting with his 30 lb. bow after all, even if the odds of his success may not be all that great. I personally wish him all the best no matter what.

[Skinner 2]

I was just offering a suggestion, and if he cannot pull a bow with two hands to use the draw lock, what is he gonna do with a crossbow that is 150 lbs of pull? I was under the impression that you were saying he already owned a compound bow and it was turned down to 30 lbs. Shouldn't under estimate a bow at around 35 lbs, the new ones are generating the same power as a 45 lb bow. Lots of youngsters are taking deer with a 35lb bow, two bladed broadheads and stay off the shoulder.:)

Crossbows are bulky and awkward, but if he can manage it, by all means help him get a permit for either one crossbow or a modified bow.

Soggy I know and don't mean to offend. Just getting tied of hearing people like him are lazy and looking for excuses not to pratice ( NOT that you said that). He should at least be given the chance to make a choice.

We have 4 compounds and none of them now will go low enough. If he tries a few time he can get one back but then is not steady for a shot. Barely into 40's range

Crossbows can be cocked with a wench or cocking device and allow a foot and two arm pull. A compound does not. He can still shoot a rifle pretty well. He also hunts with a muzzleloader and now has troubled sometime loading it. IT may take him 5 minutes to get the bullet seated. Sometimes only a few seconds. Ethier way his first load is on me;).

[soggybtmboys]

This is NOT legal without a modified bow/disability permit.

Skinner, Some of us our trying our best to help people such as your dad. Keep the faith and ask him to contact his Congressman. I urge you to do the same.


Either way he will have to get a permit. Whichever way works best for the man's father and what his father wants to do. If his dad really likes his bow and does not want to give it up, there was a viable solution....and very possbily one that does not cost as much as having to go and get outfitted with a new weapon.

[Michihunter]

Either way he will have to get a permit. Whichever way works best for the man's father and what his father wants to do. If his dad really likes his bow and does not want to give it up, there was a viable solution....and very possbily one that does not cost as much as having to go and get outfitted with a new weapon.I think that's what is at issue here Soggy. That the man even needs to go through with the process and HOPE that he qualifies to then be considered disabled. Pretty humiliating for someone that sounds pretty active and far from disabled.:(

[soggybtmboys]

Soggy I know and don't mean to offend. Just getting tied of hearing people like him are lazy and looking for excuses not to pratice ( NOT that you said that). He should at least be given the chance to make a choice.

We have 4 compounds and none of them now will go low enough. If he tries a few time he can get one back but then is not steady for a shot. Barely into 40's range

Crossbows can be cocked with a wench or cocking device and allow a foot and two arm pull. A compound does not. He can still shoot a rifle pretty well. He also hunts with a muzzleloader and now has troubled sometime loading it. IT may take him 5 minutes to get the bullet seated. Sometimes only a few seconds. Ethier way his first load is on me;).


Its cool, I wasn't offended.:) My dad is 62 and he is having a hard time pulling back his bow and we were looking at options for him. I watched that video on the link and thought it looked like something my dad would like, and maybe your dad too. It works like that, one foot and two hands. My dad has the money if he wanted to get a crossbow, but he is a tight butt :lol:. I turned his bow down and it is about 40 lbs, he is still having a hard time, but if he could use two hands to lock it he would be good to go, the draw lock might work for him, plus he would be happy that he could use his bow and take the poundage back up, and get away with only spending 150 buck!:lol:

I hope it all works out for your dad.

[soggybtmboys]

I think that's what is at issue here Soggy. That the man even needs to go through with the process and HOPE that he qualifies to then be considered disabled. Pretty humiliating for someone that sounds pretty active and far from disabled.:(


I think a senior should have a choice, and a person with a disability or handicap should just be able to go and get one. :)

[Michihunter]

I think a senior should have a choice, and a person with a disability or handicap should just be able to go and get one. :)That seems a bit diffferent from what you told me on the phone Soggy. Another change of heart?:confused:

[soggybtmboys]

That seems a bit diffferent from what you told me on the phone Soggy. Another change of heart?:confused:

I don't think it is.:)

[Skinner 2]

got booted and lost a page long response. LOL

skipper I was sarcastic about rubber suction tips. Ie licking them.

Michihunter, Thanks and working on it.

Guys if it was warm and he was feeling strong maybe he would be content hunting with a 35 to 40 pound bow. If its cold and he has extra layers on and is sore and stiff maye he would like a choice to take a 100 pond crossbow out. How he feels and contitions allow his a choice. Something he does not ahve not. Wel OK choice two stay inside and not hunt with me or his grandsons.

Some people on this board have this choice. Because of said injury they get one and are allowed to decide. Great for them!

My dad got his frist bow kill before I was born and zone three had deer. Yes he used a long bow and knows them well. He switched to sights some years back because this allowed him to shoot better. HIS CHOICE. Now he is not shooting well or at all. Should he be allowed a choice to help him?

He said his best hunt ever was two Decembers ago. Michigan Elk hunt Antlerless permit. I was his guide and we walked the elk up. I broke trail in the snow for him. I carried his rifle when needed and I also helped up when he had falled down in the snow. When I spotted the elk in the snow bedded then he took lead. He took the longest shot of his life with his custom 7mm mag with me looking over his should with Binocs. We got our elk and it was a father son effort. Took us three days before we saw the frist cow and also after walking up 15 bulls. ON OUR OWN by choice.

This was also a month after his wife (my mother) passed away.

Why is it so hard for a 81 one year old man to hunt or at least have a choice on how when many others are given opportunites. We know hunting, we know Archery. WHY do other make this decision for him now.

I was sponsored by Browning for quite a few years. I have over 14 state titles, National titles and international titles. I still have some records in my name. I walked away from this when my son was born. If I was going to be away from my familly it was for hunting, Not Tournaments. I was number one in state for indoor achery these years. and walked away my choice. My father never shot these tournament with me but was with me at many of them. Now if I placed my views on every else. Well you would not be using release aids for Archery. I didn't then nor do I now. My dad switched to one about 7 years ago. HIS choice
Why is he just not allowed to make up his own mind and when he does people tell him he is wrong or should do this or that.

We just planted close to 4 acres of seed, we have planted perhaps 200 plus trees and shrubs. He purchased his land 15 years ago because he got tired of his hunting areas getting clear cut in the UP. I have no idea on how many bucks he has taken but I can say he has everything from a does, fawns, unihorn spike to 14 points (OK still looking for a 3 point). To him his biggest was one that dressed 269lbs( not the 14pt) shot in the UP while he had a broken leg, yes on crutches and a knee deep snow. He even has this on the old 8mm movies. His hardest deer to get took 4 years. Huge 9 point and he know it was the same deer because of an odd hoof. Had squared toes on left front foot. He let it go the prior year in low light on his last day of hunting that year. Now the feet are a gun rack. He never had one deer scored and don't care about scores, Many admire his wall of antlers and one one mount. The squared 9 point.

Now at 81 many people don't want nor feel he should be on his own land hunting his own way by choice. Odd how many people that never met this man know him better then himself.

I know many of you are offering help and mean well. Many others could offer better help. All he wants is a choice. Why not let him make it.

I have spent many hours hunting and fishing with this man. He has taught me a lot. Why are so many people eager to stop this? Will I fight for him yes!!!!!!! You bet!!!!!!

His goal is that three point. I will do what I can for him to achieve this. I bet it also will be a memorial hunt for him. Odd many want that chance taken away too!

Skinner

[soggybtmboys]

Seniors ought to have the choice, they have earned that right. I think they can decide which is best for them and if it keeps them in the woods longer, well God Bless them.

[bigcountrysg]

Like I said in many other threads. We have an Archery Season. In my opinion that means if it is classified as a piece of Archery which a crossbow is. Then it should be allowed to be used during Archery Season.

[whitehalljoe]

The new regulations have more than 30# draw ability as a qualifying "disability". Your Dad should ask his Dr. about the other "disabilities" that would qualify him. Most Drs. who understand bow hunting can evaluate a patient based on the new regulations and approve them if they really have a problem that makes bow hunting the conventional way unreasonable.

[Michihunter]

The new regulations have more than 30# draw ability as a qualifying "disability". Your Dad should ask his Dr. about the other "disabilities" that would qualify him. Most Drs. who understand bow hunting can evaluate a patient based on the new regulations and approve them if they really have a problem that makes bow hunting the conventional way unreasonable.Yes you are right, it's actually 35#'s. But what you are suggesting is that this man shop around for a Dr. that knows bowhunting. Then he must be labeled as disabled to be allowed to pursue the same passion he has for x amount of years.Those two things alone should leave a foul taste in any fellow hunters mouth when it comes to our discriminatory policies.

[Skinner 2]

Yes you are right, it's actually 35#'s. But what you are suggesting is that this man shop around for a Dr. that knows bowhunting. Then he must be labeled as disabled to be allowed to pursue the same passion he has for x amount of years.Those two things alone should leave a foul taste in any fellow hunters mouth when it comes to our discriminatory policies.

Michihunter hit it 100%.WHY should he Be forced to do this?????

Whitehalljoe,
We have been all over this. He can pass the mobility tests and most likely pass the 35lb test at times. Second he has to be labled as disable which he is not and which he is NOT disqualifies him from applying! I ask you this, Would you hunt deer with a 35 lb bow as you suggested IF YOU had the ability to use a crossbow?

It is simple to pass judgement here.

Skinner

[poz]

My father is in the same boat. He is 80 and hasn't shot a deer with his bow for years because he doesn't want to place a bad shot on a deer. he lost his confidence and doesn't want to force a shot. Also he cannot practice like he use to. After a few shots he can't pull his bow back. He tried to get a permit a few years ago, but couldn't find a doctor willing to take a chance on him. If a doctor says a patient meets the requirements for a permit and someone questions it, He can get in alot of trouble if they prove the person didn't meet the requirements. So most Doctors that I had talked to won't even look at borderline cases. That is why they need to rewrite the laws, until then my advice is to follow the laws and unfortunately our fathers can't bow hunt.

[Skinner 2]

Look at this. How can it be.

TWO LAZY Michigan Super Senior Citizen slob hunters looking for and easy way out. Sorry poz I just had to say that.

Well hopefully something will happen and things will change. Hopefully soon so our fathers can both enjoy shooting others peoples deer. I mean enjoy hunting deer again. Sorry had to say that also. The sarastic comments kinda make me feel better:lol:.

I was on the phone tonight with a Doctor's aid then the Doctor for a half hour. Didn't make any head way and they had no clue about this issue.

Hey are there ANY Doctors on this site or reading these posts that would be willing to meet, and examine a couple old men? Any? HM didn't think of asking the wifes' OBGYN.....................

Skinner

[spice64]

Get over it Mack. If He was blind like My Dad was He shouldnt be wielding a shotgun either. The point Being Maybe He should just forgo archery all together,Theres a choice and an ethical one at that. It sounds like him wielding a bow at this point may be unethical alltogether. My Father loved grouse hunting But understood that at a point it was time to sit by the fire and let the younger men bring home the stories. And By the way if He truly loves hunting He does have a CHOICE. He could use his xbow during rifle season.

[Skinner 2]

Get over it Mack. If He was blind like My Dad was He shouldnt be wielding a shotgun either. The point Being Maybe He should just forgo archery all together,Theres a choice and an ethical one at that. It sounds like him wielding a bow at this point may be unethical alltogether. My Father loved grouse hunting But understood that at a point it was time to sit by the fire and let the younger men bring home the stories. And By the way if He truly loves hunting He does have a CHOICE. He could use his xbow during rifle season.

Well the point is my dad does not own a xbow. Guess he will just have to use his muzzleloader for now.

Sorry to hear about your dad loosing his eye sight. By the way did you know that with your dad being blind he did not have to give up hunting? See the state has a program that lets a blind person use a laser to aim with. This allows a second person to help him aim a gun. Now a good dog and a person to aim and your dad can then hunt again. He has a choice and a program available. I guess the ethical question would be about shooting grouse in front of a pointed dog. Could even take turn with the shots.

Skinner

[Liv4Huntin']

In one of his posts Riva made a notation, I believe, that a chiropractor was also one that could sign the crossbow permit applicaiton.

You may want to double check about this. I've not seen it anywhere on the permit app., but someone may have more information on it...

Good luck! And hoping he gets back out in the woods.
~m~

[eino]

I wish you and your dad the best of luck. I'm not trying to say breaking the law is okay, but sometimes it's understandable. I speed sometimes on my way to work. My dogs were unleashed in the woods a couple times during the quiet season. I can't tell you the amount of deer hunters that "use the wifes tags" after they spend theirs. ALL OF US, without exception, at least ocassonally willfully break laws that we think are meaningless or just figure we wont get caught. I feel by saying this I am kind of throwing myself under the bus, but it's true. None of us are above it. I don't think it should be such a song and dance for your father, or anyone, to use a crossbow. There is no logical reason that your dad should have to sit by the fire and not enjoy the sport of bowhunting. When people have a disability (not that your dad technicaly has one but rather the disability to draw a bow more than 30 pounds) exceptions are made to help that person adjust. Your not just cast aside to make room for the next generation. If your dad has the ability and will to hunt, even with the aid of a crossbow, by all means the two of you should get after the 3 point. I would like to know if he gets his buck, but maybe don't tell what he used for a weapon when you tell about it.;)

Ed

[whitehalljoe]

Skinner and MichiHunter---I appoligize for the post yesterday. I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I did not realize the thread was started to discuss the unfairness of labeling normal people disabled. I thought the thread was started to try to get input on ways to help fellow bowhunters continue to hunt during archery season.
By the way, I know 3 hunters who have been able to qualify under the new regulations and all 3 felt it was worth the extra effort so the could enjoy the bow season. None of them seemed to care that the system was unfair. They just wanted to continue to hunt.

[Michihunter]

Skinner and MichiHunter---I appoligize for the post yesterday. I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I did not realize the thread was started to discuss the unfairness of labeling normal people disabled. I thought the thread was started to try to get input on ways to help fellow bowhunters continue to hunt during archery season.
By the way, I know 3 hunters who have been able to qualify under the new regulations and all 3 felt it was worth the extra effort so the could enjoy the bow season. None of them seemed to care that the system was unfair. They just wanted to continue to hunt.
No need to apologize Joe. A lot of people will certainly qualify under the new system but then again a lot of people will not. It is my wish that no one gets left behind and that no one has to go through more work and pay more money to enjoy the archery season in the same way I do.

[spice64]

Well the point is my dad does not own a xbow. Guess he will just have to use his muzzleloader for now.

Sorry to hear about your dad loosing his eye sight. By the way did you know that with your dad being blind he did not have to give up hunting? See the state has a program that lets a blind person use a laser to aim with. This allows a second person to help him aim a gun. Now a good dog and a person to aim and your dad can then hunt again. He has a choice and a program available. I guess the ethical question would be about shooting grouse in front of a pointed dog. Could even take turn with the shots.

Skinner
You wont see the point, Ground swatting grouse is akin to shooting deer with an underpowerd bow and shaking hands. Both are unethical to the core.

[Michihunter]

You wont see the point, Ground swatting grouse is akin to shooting deer with an underpowerd bow and shaking hands. Both are unethical to the core.
And please tell us where we can purchase this "Codebook of Ethics" we are all supposed to follow. Or is it perhaps YOUR code of ethics? Never assume that all people share (or SHOULD share) in the same beliefs you do. If you know anything about Parkinsons, you might retract your "unethical" statement and apologize to this man's father for assuming ANYTHING about him.

[Skinner 2]

You wont see the point, Ground swatting grouse is akin to shooting deer with an underpowerd bow and shaking hands. Both are unethical to the core.

spice. I understand about not seeing the point, and I am somewhat sorry I posted my response. Sorry about your dad but not about point of an option. I understand how your dad felt and the ethical point of what I suggested. I Felt I had to make the statement because of the laser permit. Had your dad been a deer hunter he had an option. Right now my dad does not have a legal option. We are trying daily and have been for some time. Actually started a few years ago. Again sorry for your dad.

whitehaljoe. Don't worry about no need to appoligize. I'm just trying to make a point some people are being left out of the system. How many other have been forced to sit out before they felt like they should?

enio thats for understanding, and I hear what you say. Bet I have been told that over 100 times and some from some pretty high officials;). He has actually let that three point go in the last couple years but I have a feeling not any more. Your one I will post the picture WHEN he gets it. Best "Quality" buck he every gets with a lot of satisfaction.

liv4huntin. Have not been able to find that. I guess I could however call and pay office vists and add them on the growing list.

Guy's may you all live long healthy lives and not have to be forced with this issue when you reach my dad's age or stature.

Skinner

[Skinner 2]

And please tell us where we can purchase this "Codebook of Ethics" we are all supposed to follow. Or is it perhaps YOUR code of ethics? Never assume that all people share (or SHOULD share) in the same beliefs you do. If you know anything about Parkinsons, you might retract your "unethical" statement and apologize to this man's father for assuming ANYTHING about him.

Thanks for having my dad's back. He doesn't have Parkinsons to our knowledge but I guess that would allow him the permit. Spills a lot of coffee perhaps we should have him checked.

Again Any Doctor here willing to see my father????

Skinner

[Michihunter]

Thanks for having my dad's back. He doesn't have Parkinsons to our knowledge but I guess that would allow him the permit. Spills a lot of coffee perhaps we should have him checked.

Again Any Doctor here willing to see my father????

SkinnerI apologize for assuming he had Parkinsons. I know I read something about someone that does in fact have Parkinsons and just assumed it was your dad.

[GettinBucky]

Hey Skinner....not trying to open a can of worms here....because I hope you are successful in getting your dad a crossbow permit so he can hunt during archery season with more confidence.

Now here comes the but....Mid to upper 30lbs with a newer bow can kill a deer very efficiently. I was a bit skeptical myself until last year. My 10 yr old killed 2 with a bow last year shooting 36lbs. One was a pass through and went about 35-40 yards. The other stuck in the opposite side of the deer but only made it about 100 yards.

An elderly neighbor of mine was able to get a crossbow permit this year under the new regulations pretty easily. He is in no way disabled....

Good luck to you and your dad....

[spice64]

Well the point is my dad does not own a xbow. Guess he will just have to use his muzzleloader for now.

Sorry to hear about your dad loosing his eye sight. By the way did you know that with your dad being blind he did not have to give up hunting? See the state has a program that lets a blind person use a laser to aim with. This allows a second person to help him aim a gun. Now a good dog and a person to aim and your dad can then hunt again. He has a choice and a program available. I guess the ethical question would be about shooting grouse in front of a pointed dog. Could even take turn with the shots.

Skinner

And please tell us where we can purchase this "Codebook of Ethics" we are all supposed to follow. Or is it perhaps YOUR code of ethics? Never assume that all people share (or SHOULD share) in the same beliefs you do. If you know anything about Parkinsons, you might retract your "unethical" statement and apologize to this man's father for assuming ANYTHING about him.

I apologize for assuming he had Parkinsons. I know I read something about someone that does in fact have Parkinsons and just assumed it was your dad.

Thanks for having my dad's back. He doesn't have Parkinsons to our knowledge but I guess that would allow him the permit. Spills a lot of coffee perhaps we should have him checked.

Again Any Doctor here willing to see my father????

Skinner Michihunter - 1st off I will not apoligize for your assumption. I Myself (44) shake badly in the presence of a whitetail when holding a bow that has to much poundage. May it be 25# or 95# if you cant hold the bow still and put a humaine shot on the animal it just aint ethical. Hasnt anyone ever told you that? I dont know how You jumped to the conclusion that someone had parkinsons. And I think I'm owed an apoligy:dizzy: secondly I,m not refering to a "codebook"
merely Answering the question that the thread asks ETHICS VS COMMON SENSE. Your "codebook" is found in your heart The price is your conscionce and if you think ground swatting grouse and maimeing deer (all legal) are cool its a pretty cheap book. Waiting for your apoligy. Spice.

[Michihunter]

Michihunter - 1st off I will not apoligize for your assumption. I Myself (44) shake badly in the presence of a whitetail when holding a bow that has to much poundage. May it be 25# or 95# if you cant hold the bow still and put a humaine shot on the animal it just aint ethical. Hasnt anyone ever told you that? I dont know how You jumped to the conclusion that someone had parkinsons. And I think I'm owed an apoligy:dizzy: secondly I,m not refering to a "codebook"
merely Answering the question that the thread asks ETHICS VS COMMON SENSE. Your "codebook" is found in your heart The price is your conscionce and if you think ground swatting grouse and maimeing deer (all legal) are cool its a pretty cheap book. Waiting for your apoligy. Spice.
So you are assuming that 1) He shakes at ALL times. 2) that he has too much poundage 3) that he has a condition that makes it unethical (in your OPINION) to hunt deer. 4) That no one that shakes has ever taken a humane shot.

Hope you ain't holding your breath.;)

BTW- Why you hunting with a bow that has so much poundage you shake? And you want to point a finger?:lol::lol:

[eddiejohn4]

You hit on the head when you mentioned common sense. this should be a no brainer as any man 81 should be able to use a crossbow to continue the way of life (hunting) that he has enjoyed for all those years.

[Skinner 2]

Hey Skinner....not trying to open a can of worms here....because I hope you are successful in getting your dad a crossbow permit so he can hunt during archery season with more confidence.

Now here comes the but....Mid to upper 30lbs with a newer bow can kill a deer very efficiently. I was a bit skeptical myself until last year. My 10 yr old killed 2 with a bow last year shooting 36lbs. One was a pass through and went about 35-40 yards. The other stuck in the opposite side of the deer but only made it about 100 yards.

An elderly neighbor of mine was able to get a crossbow permit this year under the new regulations pretty easily. He is in no way disabled....

Good luck to you and your dad....

Gettinbucky Nope not opening a can of worms....Just a can whoop*****:lol:
OK on a serious note would you talk with him and ask him what/how he was able to do this? Perhaps I need a Country Doctor. These city ones, well...............:dizzy:

My dad is just no way comfortable wanting to try shooting a deer with that light of poundage. He never was a heavy shooter but he would like @45 if he could for a minimun. I think the first bow he hunted with 60 years ago was about 58lbs at 29 inches. He likes to hold off for at least 2.5 year old bucks with a bow. Some can get some weight and thickness to them. 45 pounds makes him a lot more confident and comfortable.

Skinner

[Skinner 2]

You hit on the head when you mentioned common sense. this should be a no brainer as any man 81 should be able to use a crossbow to continue the way of life (hunting) that he has enjoyed for all those years.


Well partly hit. I think now the title should have been, Common Sense, DNR, and the Medical Profession.

Heck my dad would now just like to legally try a Draw-loc after seeing the video. I never would have believed any person in his condition or age would have this issue. I though he had been shooting his bow now for two months. I know he started and could only get about two shots off before he could not pull. The more he shot the worse he got till he just can not pull. I know he approached his Doctor last year about this and asked again this summer. I was on the hone with his Doctor two night ago. WOW.

A Retired LEO told him to just hunt with a crossbow. Said No way would the state want to cite him and the go to court for using a crossbow. Too bad the LEO is not in the area he hunts LOL. Well many other said the same. Just don't make it right.

Skinner

[spice64]

So you are assuming that 1) He shakes at ALL times. 2) that he has too much poundage 3) that he has a condition that makes it unethical (in your OPINION) to hunt deer. 4) That no one that shakes has ever taken a humane shot.

Hope you ain't holding your breath.;)

BTW- Why you hunting with a bow that has so much poundage you shake? And you want to point a finger?:lol::lol:
Michihunter Your not worth it, You would never get it anyway. You like the easy way around everything. I think the gentleman who started the thread gets My point though. Happy poaching I'm sure (not assuming) your the type a guy who will be sitting over a truckload of carrots this fall.:lol::lol::lol:

[Michihunter]

Michihunter Your not worth it, You would never get it anyway. You like the easy way around everything. I think the gentleman who started the thread gets My point though. Happy poaching I'm sure (not assuming) your the type a guy who will be sitting over a truckload of carrots this fall.:lol::lol::lol:More assumptions?:rolleyes:

[john warren]

his ethics have all ready told him what he needs to know. if he can kill quickly and humanely with a lower poundage bow, no problem. i personaly have taken 13 deer with a 35 pound recurve and they all went down fairly quickly. never lost one.