tree shot?

[outdoordude]

Was wondering if you shoot high or low if lets say you are 25 feet up and are shooting at a deer that is 20 yards from the bottom of your tree? last year this happened to me during late season bow and I aimed at a 10 points heart and totally missed him! so what is it, I am a real great and calm shooter with no buck fever!!!!

[TOW]

Bend at the waist...

[madmike22]

practice from a tree also. Doesnt do you alot of good to practice from the ground if you arent hunting from the ground.

[Michihunter]

practice from a tree also. Doesnt do you alot of good to practice from the ground if you arent hunting from the ground.The difference is very little but it would be lower in most cases. I normally aim towards the heart so that any miscalculation or string jump will still end up in some lung.

As others have said though, the best way to know is to practice the shot. And definitely bend at the waist.;)

[Slice]

Bend at the waist...
:yeahthat:

[Sabre03]

I practice from the ground until about 3 weeks before season, then all practice is from my practice treestand set up in the back yard. I never noticed much of a difference in impact. Practicing from a stand is good if you dont mind the neighbors staring at you like your losing it.:)

[Hoyt_em]

mathamatically that works out to be just under a 26 yard shot...not enough to make a difference. Like others have said, bend at the waste, and if possible practice out of a stand.

I won't recommend of a roof top..

[rowboat]

I vote to; bend at the waist
If you practice on the ground you don't have to practice
from above if you shoot the same form bent at the waist.

[FREEPOP]

mathamatically that works out to be just under a 26 yard shot...not enough to make a difference. Like others have said, bend at the waste, and if possible practice out of a stand.

I won't recommend of a roof top..

But what you didn't consider is vector forces, specifically gravities effect on the arrow.

Generally people will hit higher from a tree because gravity doesn't effect the arrow as much. It is based on ground distance, as that is the only distance gravity can work on the arrow. The down part of the arrow, garvity gives you for free. There are many posts on this here, try a search.

Good luck

[William H Bonney]

Why "bend" at the waist??

[FREEPOP]

Why "bend" at the waist??

Not bending at the waist takes you out of form and your sighting isn't the same.

[Banditto]

I agree with the above but there could be other factors too.

He said it was in late season, how cold was it at the time? cold weather can play havoc on a bow that uses a cable guide. If the cable guide had lube applied which normally wouldn't affect it during warm weather, the cold weather can gum up the lube causing the cable slide to stick. When I had a cable guide on my bow I had several serious lockups due to the guide getting wet then freezing... so I started carrying an all weather lube applicator and kept an eye on it.

So like it was said above, practice--but specifically take a practice shot from your stand when you sit down and get comfortable for THAT specific hunt. It will show you any weaknesses from the cold weather.

[Hoyt_em]

But what you didn't consider is vector forces, specifically gravities effect on the arrow.

Generally people will hit higher from a tree because gravity doesn't effect the arrow as much. It is based on ground distance, as that is the only distance gravity can work on the arrow. The down part of the arrow, garvity gives you for free. There are many posts on this here, try a search.

Good luck


so your telling me gravity changes from the ground to a tree????

[old school]

I practice from the ground until about 3 weeks before season, then all practice is from my practice treestand set up in the back yard. I never noticed much of a difference in impact. Practicing from a stand is good if you dont mind the neighbors staring at you like your losing it.:)

Funny you say that about the neighbors. Last year practicing for my elk hunt, I was in full gear all over my front yard, reaching around trees, standing,kneeling, sitting down.. My neighbor comes out across the road and says what's up man its Aug and in the 80's.... I laughed and said just preparing for my hunt, it'll pay off in the field. It sure did, and he didn't think i was so crazy when I got home with the meat and my trophy.

[jjc155]

1) Bend at the waist (like mentioned above). If you drop ur arm to compensate for the angle u will shoot under the deer EVERY TIME.

2) Shoot the horizontal distance from the base of the tree to the deer, NOT the distance that you "see" from where u are in the tree. If the deer is 20 yards from the base of the tree then aim for 20, not the aprox 23 (you can actually figure out the difference mathmatically, but I am dumb LOL) or so yards that your arrow will actually travel from the stand to the deer. The further the deer is away the less the difference is, but at any rate unless u are shooting at a deer 5 yards from the base of the tree the difference is not noticible or a problem.

3) Practice from a stand or go to a 3D range that has elevated platforms so that you can see that it works and you will have confidence in your shots, so that you don't calmly miss a 10pt again.

J-

[Michihunter]

Actually it's all based on mathematics using the Pythagorean formula. If you range the shot from a tree at 25 yards and you are up in a tree 20' high, the math would be: 20^2 (or 400)+ x^2 (the horizontal distance)=the square root of 75(yards converted to ft)^2( or5625). Then you divide that answer by 3 to convert back to yards. In the scenario I just listed, the actual shot distance is 24.0947205.

In other words, not enough difference to make a difference. Has very little to do with gravity if anything at all.;)

[FREEPOP]

so your telling me gravity changes from the ground to a tree????

Gravity only effects the arrow on the HORIZONTAL distance from the tree to the target. It doesn't effect it when the distance is longer because you're in a tree. That's why people tend to shoot high.

[Michihunter]

Gravity only effects the arrow on the HORIZONTAL distance from the tree to the target. It doesn't effect it when the distance is longer because you're in a tree. That's why people tend to shoot high.Not wanting to get into too big of debate here Freepop. You are correct in saying the effect of gravity is the reason you choose the horizontal distance over the angled distance but it's a negligible effect with today's bows. Shoot from 24 yards and then take a step back to 25 yards and see if there's a difference on your target. If your bow is shooting above 250fps you will not notice much of a difference if any at all. Graviity effects all shots if you want to be technical, it just effects it more as the angle from perpendicular to parallel increases and even more when it goes from parallell to an angle above that.

[FREEPOP]

I shoot below 250 fps, because of a broken collar bone and age. But I don't see one yard making any difference with any bow at virtually any ethical distance.

[Hoyt_em]

Gravity only effects the arrow on the HORIZONTAL distance from the tree to the target. It doesn't effect it when the distance is longer because you're in a tree. That's why people tend to shoot high.


gravity is gravity is gravity...barring the extreme stuff (close to perpendicular down, and more so with close to perpendicular up)

a bow sighted in on a horizontal line, and shot out of a treestand has a predetermined flight path (made up of arrow speed, arrow wieght, and distance shot).

People are gonna shoot high for a few other reasons...poor form, steep angles, poor shot placement due to not seeing the arrow path thru the animal, animals jumping the string (ducking) and a host of others.

...or we can just simply agree to disagree on this...;)

[Michihunter]

I shoot below 250 fps, because of a broken collar bone and age ;)You would still shoot the horizontal distance regardless of speed.;)

[john warren]

did you miss, high? or low?

[Banditto]

undoubtedly high for a number of reasons

but has anybody considered the frozen cable guard idea?

[soggybtmboys]

The other point that noone has tabled is a fairly common mistake in archers. Not following thru and lifting your head to watch your arrow. When you lift your head out of form to watch your shot, your hands follow. It is generally a rookie mistake, but happens to everyone. I did it three years ago on an 8 pnt in Oscoda. Bleated himm in, 12 yards, big stupid grin, tasting the backstraps....money in the bank.....right? Wrong, lifted my head to watch my arrow and only to watch it fly over his back.....I thought I heard a Homer Simpson....DOOOOOAAHHHHH in the background.

[Michihunter]

undoubtedly high for a number of reasons

but has anybody considered the frozen cable guard idea?Just another possibility to consider I guess. But I would be concerned that any cable slide snagging up is a symptom of something more. Aloty of times what happens is the slide itself will get a groove worn into the body of it from excessive use without replacing it. Under normal circumstances with a good cable slide, that really shouldn't ever be an issue. ;)

[outdoordude]

i have a 2007 bowtech allegiance, shooting 315 fps with the speed mod. I shot under him so I think that..mentioned earlier that I didn't bend my waist. All i know is that I saw him jump and run away and pretty much laugh at me!!!! i can hit quarters at 40 plus yards but can;t hit a 10 point 20 yards away?

[Banditto]

I haven't seen a bow made that uses a cable slide that can take an hour of sleet followed by a a flash freeze. I was so happy when Mathews forever eliminated that issue and other manufacturers followed suit.

I prefer bad weather and had my share of problems because of it.

[grandblanc]

Was wondering if you shoot high or low if lets say you are 25 feet up and are shooting at a deer that is 20 yards from the bottom of your tree? last year this happened to me during late season bow and I aimed at a 10 points heart and totally missed him! so what is it, I am a real great and calm shooter with no buck fever!!!!

To answer your question...you will always shoot high regardless of shooting downhill or uphill. It's simple physics and a matter of ballistics.

[Michihunter]

To answer your question...you will always shoot high regardless of shooting downhill or uphill. It's simple physics and a matter of ballistics.Please explain. Cuz I think you got it backwards.

[grandblanc]

Please explain. Cuz I think you got it backwards.

from; http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/April04.htm

Shooting Uphill and Downhill

Shooters are sometimes confused about the bullets path when shooting uphill or downhill. For instance, does the bullet strike high when shooting downhill and strike low when shooting uphill? Sierra and other bullet companies have done extensive testing on shooting uphill and downhill and have found the following to be true for a given cartridge:

The true vertical bullet drop is the same for level fire and uphill or downhill shooting for the same range. The vertical drop, is the same for all three methods of shooting over the same range.
The bullet velocity is the same whether shooting over a level range or shooting uphill or downhill. In other words the bullet does not slow down faster in uphill shooting than with level shooting and the bullet velocity does not increase when shooting downhill.
A rifle zeroed in at level range will shoot higher when shooting uphill or downhill.
For a given angle of fire the bullet will shoot high by the same amount weather shooting uphill or down hill.

The theory as to why the bullet always shoots high for uphill and downhill shooting is based on the projectiles path in relation to the pull of gravity. Gravity works perpendicular to the horizontal line. It's the horizontal distance traveled by the bullet that is important rather than the actual linear distance traveled.

google it. there is a ton of information about this topic.

[Michihunter]

from; http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/April04.htm

Shooting Uphill and Downhill

Shooters are sometimes confused about the bullets path when shooting uphill or downhill. For instance, does the bullet strike high when shooting downhill and strike low when shooting uphill? Sierra and other bullet companies have done extensive testing on shooting uphill and downhill and have found the following to be true for a given cartridge:

The true vertical bullet drop is the same for level fire and uphill or downhill shooting for the same range. The vertical drop, is the same for all three methods of shooting over the same range.
The bullet velocity is the same whether shooting over a level range or shooting uphill or downhill. In other words the bullet does not slow down faster in uphill shooting than with level shooting and the bullet velocity does not increase when shooting downhill.
A rifle zeroed in at level range will shoot higher when shooting uphill or downhill.
For a given angle of fire the bullet will shoot high by the same amount weather shooting uphill or down hill.

The theory as to why the bullet always shoots high for uphill and downhill shooting is based on the projectiles path in relation to the pull of gravity. Gravity works perpendicular to the horizontal line. It's the horizontal distance traveled by the bullet that is important rather than the actual linear distance traveled.

google it. there is a ton of information about this topic.

OK, we're on the same page only reading it in a different context. As I said in the beginning, horizontal distance is the key.;)

[grandblanc]

I'm not reading it as you insinuate...

from the atricle...A rifle zeroed in at level range will shoot higher when shooting uphill or downhill.
For a given angle of fire the bullet will shoot high by the same amount weather shooting uphill or down hill.;)

You will always shoot high unless you compensate and aim low when shooting up or downhill.

outdoordude...to answer your original question, see above.

[Michihunter]

I'm not reading it as you insinuate...

from the atricle...A rifle zeroed in at level range will shoot higher when shooting uphill or downhill.
For a given angle of fire the bullet will shoot high by the same amount weather shooting uphill or down hill.;)

You will always shoot high unless you compensate and aim low when shooting up or downhill.

outdoordude...to answer your original question, see above.


Insinuate? Are you not saying that if you are in a stand that the arrow will hit higher on the deer than it would at the same distance on the ground? I said earlier that although you may range the shot from the stand at a certain distance on an angle, the ACTUAL distance you SHOULD aim is the horizontal distance which is shorter. Look back at my posts and you may see that I said I aim for the heart just for that reason. The original question was:Was wondering if you shoot high or low if lets say you are 25 feet up and are shooting at a deer that is 20 yards from the bottom of your tree? I answered: Lower. If I insinuated anything, it was that we agree. ;)

I will however add that in the grand scheme of bowhunting, the difference is NEGLIGIBLE at average yardages and overthinking these things is unnecessary most times. And that's coming from 30 yrs of field experience.;)

[grandblanc]

Please explain. Cuz I think you got it backwards.

I thought you said we were on the same page?



reading it in a different context.;)

Insinuation

If I insinuated anything, it was that we agree. ;)
I agree that we agree.

The original question was:Was wondering if you shoot high or low if lets say you are 25 feet up and are shooting at a deer that is 20 yards from the bottom of your tree?......I will however add that in the grand scheme of bowhunting, the difference is NEGLIGIBLE at average yardages and overthinking these things is unnecessary most times. And that's coming from 30 yrs of field experience.;)
In most cases yes it is negligible. However, 25 feet up puts you at a good downhill angle for a 20-yard shot. Anyhow, reading his question he was asking if you shoot high or low, not as to if one should aim high or low. I think that is were the confusion came from.

[Michihunter]

Agreed about where the confusion may have come from. In the end, we agree about the actual travel of the arrow and that's a good thing.;)

[FREEPOP]

Okay now let me spin off from this. The bullet/arrow never rises from it's path, it begins falling due to gravity the minute it leaves the rest or barrel.

[old school]

Okay now let me spin off from this. The bullet/arrow never rises from it's path, it begins falling due to gravity the minute it leaves the rest or barrel.


I believe it does rise if im not mistaken.

[old school]

There is an arc

[sbooy42]

There is an arc
Thats becuase when it starts out its not level. Its pointing up which makes and arch...

[FREEPOP]

The actual flight path is a parabolic curve, basically an arc. The scope or sights are pointed down.

That concludes todays lesson.

[Hoyt_em]

Okay now let me spin off from this. The bullet/arrow never rises from it's path, it begins falling due to gravity the minute it leaves the rest or barrel.


I agree the effects of gravity are in act the instant the arrow is in flight, but the arrow is rising the minute it comes out of the bow, or you couldn't have the parabolic curve.

As an example, on my 3D bow, a 1 yard shot is actually an 80 yard pin, and a 3 yard shot is 'bout 50 yards, 5 yard shoot is near 45 yards.

[FREEPOP]

You are not sighting down your arrow. What is the distance between your arrow and your line of sight? Ponder the effects of that.

[sbooy42]

I agree the effects of gravity are in act the instant the arrow is in flight, but the arrow is rising the minute it comes out of the bow, or you couldn't have the parabolic curve.

As an example, on my 3D bow, a 1 yard shot is actually an 80 yard pin, and a 3 yard shot is 'bout 50 yards, 5 yard shoot is near 45 yards.

Yes its rising because your aiming up which makes it cross your direct line of sight twice...once @ 1 yard and again @ 80...

If you take two arrows the same distance off the ground...
One is held level and shot at the same time the other is dropped they will both hit the ground at the same time....

[FREEPOP]

Yes its rising because your aiming up which makes it cross your direct line of sight twice...once @ 1 yard and again @ 80...

If you take two arrows the same distance off the ground...
One is held level and shot at the same time the other is dropped they will both hit the ground at the same time....

Someone remembers physics class ;)

[fulldraw]

If you bend at the waist which keeps your anchor point the same, you will not miss. You can miss judge the distance and miss of course.

[Hoyt_em]

I didn't word that one very well, and technically I am wrong...:o

[Michihunter]

I didn't word that one very well, and technically I am wrong...:o

Takes a big man to admit when they are wrong. Kudo's Hoyt. And welcome to the forum. Looks like you'll be a great addition to this place.;)

[FREEPOP]

To error is human, some days I'm human enough for 5 people ;)

[sbooy42]

Takes a big man to admit when they are wrong. Kudo's Hoyt. And welcome to the forum. Looks like you'll be a great addition to this place.;)
I 2nd that...
cheers to ya Hoyt brother..

[Hoyt_em]

Thanks guys...I'm gonna go get some more coffee to level out the thinken process before I chew on my foot some more...;)

[Hoyt_em]

To error is human, some days I'm human enough for 5 people ;)


looks like I am well on my way to covering that spread today...;)

[Banditto]

One thing I have noticed is some people have natural ability that they don't even comprehend. And when there are discrepencies on shooting mechanics sometimes people give blanket answers like "aim this way" and what they don't realize is they are sub-conciously adjusting their form. So what works for them doesn't work for everyone.

discuss