For those who oppose Crossbows....

[swoosh]

Because too many 1.5 bucks will be killed, lets just add an OBR to the bill:lol:

[butter21]

Or how about we just keep everything how it is now? :)

[Michihunter]

Because too many 1.5 bucks will be killed, lets just add an OBR to the bill:lol:
I'm all for it. But I also support full inclusion. Kind of ironic that people that are against full inclusion use these arguments in support of their stance when the weapon has NOTHING to do with the taking of a type of deer. Not to mention that the MBH which seems to have the most vocal ooponents opposes OBR.:lol:

Or how about we just keep everything how it is now? They're still being slaughtered with the current regulations and because the choice of using a crossbow has NOTHING to do with the taking of 1.5 yr old deer? (re:OHIO)

[goemado]

I'm all for it. But I also support full inclusion. Kind of ironic that people that are against full inclusion use these arguments in support of their stance when the weapon has NOTHING to do with the taking of a type of deer. Not to mention that the MBH which seems to have the most vocal ooponents opposes OBR.:lol:

They're still being slaughtered with the current regulations and because the choice of using a crossbow has NOTHING to do with the taking of 1.5 yr old deer? (re:OHIO)

I'm all for a OBR -- Good luck getting that one passed. The OBR would reduce the opportunities for hunters and more importantly, the likely harvest total (unlike crossbows that will increase both). Something the insurance companies in Michigan are not in favor of.

The weapon may have nothing to do with the taking of deer, but the opportunity sure does - allowing anyone who can legally hunt to use a crossbow is going to increase the harvest - in total and with respect to young bucks.

I believe the general gun hunting population is far less concerned with QDM practice than bow hunters. I believe that allowing crossbows to be used by the general hunting population will put a tremendous number of "gun hunters" that wouldn't normally be in the woods other than the two week gun season in the woods -- and they will harvest many more 1.5 yr old bucks than are currently being taken.

So there is a correlation between "the weapon" and the continued excessive harvest of immature bucks.

[Munsterlndr]

I'm all for a OBR -- Good luck getting that one passed. The OBR would reduce the opportunities for hunters and more importantly, the likely harvest total (unlike crossbows that will increase both). Something the insurance companies in Michigan are not in favor of.

I've got news for you buddy, it was not the insurance companies that were ranting and raving at the NRC meetings last year to defeat the OBR initiative, it was MBH and bow hunters that were doing so. No evidence that OBR reduces hunter opportunity. It does reduce hunter opportunity to harvest bucks and that would be a good thing. Part of the problem that we have in Michigan is such an intense focus on concentrating on shooting antlered bucks.

The weapon may have nothing to do with the taking of deer, but the opportunity sure does - allowing anyone who can legally hunt to use a crossbow is going to increase the harvest - in total and with respect to young bucks.
You are correct, it will increase hunter opportunity, which is always a good thing. It will particularly increase hunter opportunity in regards to harvesting antlerless deer, since hunters using a crossbow will be able to utilize both halves of the combo tag to harvest antlerless deer, something that they cannot do when hunting during firearms season. Yes a few more young bucks will be killed but I'm guessing just as many does get whacked, too. With the overpopulation problem that we have, lowering the population is Job #1. Protecting young bucks and balancing sex ratios will be much easier to achieve once the population is lowered to a reasonable level.

I believe the general gun hunting population is far less concerned with QDM practice than bow hunters. I believe that allowing crossbows to be used by the general hunting population will put a tremendous number of "gun hunters" that wouldn't normally be in the woods other than the two week gun season in the woods -- and they will harvest many more 1.5 yr old bucks than are currently being taken.
I see absolutely no evidence to support this, in fact I believe the reverse is true. MBH and MTB members are some of the most vocal critics of OBR and QDM in Michigan. Bow hunters show a higher propensity for shooting bucks then firearms hunters do, given our license structure and that the opportunity to shoot does is absent for many firearms hunters. Most bucks harvested are yearlings and that's true whether you are talking archery or firearms. Show us a scintilla of evidence supporting the idea that crossbow hunters would harvest more yearling bucks than vertical bow hunters do?
So there is a correlation between "the weapon" and the continued excessive harvest of immature bucks. This is true, bow hunters harvest a higher percentage of bucks than firearms hunters do, especially given their opportunities to take does with the combo license.

[Swamp Ghost]

I'd be much more in favor of a 4 point to a side antler restriction OBR, but I guess could live with an OBR as part of a full inclusion package........:evilsmile

[Terry Williams]

I'm all for it. But I also support full inclusion. Kind of ironic that people that are against full inclusion use these arguments in support of their stance when the weapon has NOTHING to do with the taking of a type of deer. Not to mention that the MBH which seems to have the most vocal ooponents opposes OBR.:lol:

They're still being slaughtered with the current regulations and because the choice of using a crossbow has NOTHING to do with the taking of 1.5 yr old deer? (re:OHIO)

I know MBH is responsible for Global warming and high fuel prices but they're opposition to OBR pales in comparision to gun hunters, the DNR and merchants in the state of Michigan.

[Chuck]

Munsterlndr

"This is true, bow hunters harvest a higher percentage of bucks than firearms hunters do, especially given their opportunities to take does with the combo license."

About 58% of the deer harvested (sexes combined) in 2007 were taken during the regular
firearm season (Figure 13). Nearly 49% of the antlerless deer and 64% of the antlered bucks
were harvested in the regular firearm season. Hunters took 26% of the harvested deer
(sexes combined) during archery season. During the archery season, hunters took 25% of
the antlerless deer and 27% of the antlered bucks harvested. Few antlered bucks (6%) were
taken in the muzzleloader season. The muzzleloader and antlerless seasons combined
accounted for about 24% of the antlerless deer harvested.

This from the 07 deer harvest report

Am i misunderstanding you?

[Munsterlndr]

Munsterlndr

"This is true, bow hunters harvest a higher percentage of bucks than firearms hunters do, especially given their opportunities to take does with the combo license."

About 58% of the deer harvested (sexes combined) in 2007 were taken during the regular
firearm season (Figure 13). Nearly 49% of the antlerless deer and 64% of the antlered bucks
were harvested in the regular firearm season. Hunters took 26% of the harvested deer
(sexes combined) during archery season. During the archery season, hunters took 25% of
the antlerless deer and 27% of the antlered bucks harvested. Few antlered bucks (6%) were
taken in the muzzleloader season. The muzzleloader and antlerless seasons combined
accounted for about 24% of the antlerless deer harvested.

This from the 07 deer harvest report

Am i misunderstanding you?

I did not make myself clear, I need to stop trying to multi-task while at work. ;)

I was not referring to the percentage of the total harvest taken in each season. In relation to the combined harvest total, a higher percentage of both antlered and antlerless deer will always be taken during firearms season since there are twice as many hunters hunting then, I was referring to the antlered/antlerless harvest ratio within individual seasons.

I don't like to use single years of data when there is more available. When looking at deer harvest data I use a spreadsheet that I put together that has the harvest data for each category, firearms, archery, muzzleloader, late antlerless & combined over the last ten years and also provides running averages for each category. Using a ten year average gives a more definitive picture of trends then just looking at a one year snapshot If you look at the last ten years data averaged, 56% of the deer harvested during archery season have been antlered bucks. 53% of the deer harvested during the firearms seasons have been antlered bucks. This contradicts the claim made above that firearms hunters are more likely to harvest bucks than archery hunters. If you take into account the fact that every archer can shoot at least one, and if they buy a combo, two antlerless deer, without having to purchase another license, this discrepancy becomes even more pronounced as you would think that the built in convenience of automatically having an antlerless license would cause an increase in the percentage of antlerless deer harvested by archers. Even with that built in incentive, archers have harvested a higher percentage of bucks within their season, then firearms hunters have over the last ten years.

[butter21]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic but, Munster you really don't use both your combo tags for does do you?

[swoosh]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic but, Munster you really don't use both your combo tags for does do you?


I almost did last year, I shot 4 does.

Ironcally on the 5th doe I pulled my bow back and was standing to close to the tree. I whack my elbow, my arm shot forward and I flung an arrow somewhere:lol: The 5 does just stood there, I hung my bow back up and sat down. Some will say "If you had an Xbow" Well none of us know that, and the issue was me not the bow. I was lazy that morning and it was 100% my fault.

[butter21]

My dmu didn't have doe tags again last year so thats the only way i can take a doe. I don't use both though, it would be a bummer if old mossy horns came walking in right after you shot. :D

[Munsterlndr]

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic but, Munster you really don't use both your combo tags for does do you?

If I get the opportunity I will, I'd just as soon harvest does if I'm hunting on my private land. Have not shot a buck since 2000 and really don't care whether I ever shoot another buck. If a mature buck presents himself, I'll harvest him but I get just as much enjoyment from harvesting a mature doe and that is what I primarily target. I average 2 does a year, in a good year I'll put 3 in the freezer. Last year I harvested 2 mature does for my freezer and I used a DMAP permit to harvest a yearling doe from a friends farm, which I donated the meat from.

[goemado]

Well Munstr., maybe we can agree to disagree. I'll pass the discussion on to others.

[Munsterlndr]

Fair enough. Cheers!

[sputty]

MBH talking points 3. Allowing Crossbows in the archery deer season of a major deer producing state like Michigan will have a detrimental impact on all deer hunting seasons, including the archery season. Firearm hunters already complain that too many bucks are taken before November 15.
So the MBH admits that too many bucks are being taken. But the MBH supports the combo-tag= 2 buck limit. HMMMMMMMM

[Terry Williams]

MBH talking points 3. Allowing Crossbows in the archery deer season of a major deer producing state like Michigan will have a detrimental impact on all deer hunting seasons, including the archery season. Firearm hunters already complain that too many bucks are taken before November 15.
So the MBH admits that too many bucks are being taken. But the MBH supports the combo-tag= 2 buck limit. HMMMMMMMM


Firearm hunters complain.....it doesn't say we agree with them, our point is they will complain more and louder with an increased buck harvest. This potentially reduces the season. What don't you get about that?:dizzy:

Or did you just need to mention MBH?

[Munsterlndr]

Typical MBH talking point. Includes two unsubstantiated statements yet offers no proof to back up the claims.

Instead of the hollow rhetoric, how about something to back up the conjecture that inclusion will have a detrimental impact on all seasons, including archery?

If the proof you are offering is that some nameless, faceless firearms hunters complain about too many bucks being harvested prior to Nov. 15th, I'd say that about the only thing that is proof of is that hunters regularly complain about just about everything and it's hardly a legitimate basis to deny inclusion.

[shell waster]

How about this, instead of whinning about seasons we all make an effort to change management so that the herd maturity improves, agreed. Band together and make some changes that would make our deer herd something like say Ill or Ohio, you know our neighbours with healthy, mature deer. Blast if you want but this bickering over seasons seems childish when the deer herd isn't that great. OBR or greater antler restrictions whatever, let's get it done.