What entitles you?

[Kelly Johnson]

If you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a DH.

You probably won't be QB for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've ALWAYS been QB.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of Bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile

[redshirt32]

It's called quality of life! Thats why.
Don

[NoWake]

Accomodating someone with a less than 80% permanent disability is considered dumbing down now?

[Michihunter]

Not sure why it's "supposed to be physically demanding" Kelly. Care to share where that is a requirement of bowhunting?

[Big_Jim]

Why would you deny a person to hunt with their chosen weapon during the appropriate season? I've used traditional archery gear and compounds for years. I might want to take up a crossbow some day, I should be able to during the archey season.

I'm about adding hunting opportunities, not taking them away.

[D-BEAVER]

If you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a DH.

You probably won't be QB for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've ALWAYS been QB.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of Bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile

If this were the whole story it would be a shame to deny these people the right to bowhunt... but it's not.

A lot of people think they should qualify for a x-bow permit just because they aren't able to shoot 70lbs anymore... I'm talking about the same people that are abe to handle 50 +/- lbs. with relative ease.

I can't run like I used to, but I'm not attempting to buy a wheelchair or get a hadicap parking permit. ;)

I agree that the currnent system is lousy and needs to be re-vamped, but I don't think full inclusion is necessarily the answer... It's just the easiest solution. I would be perfectly content in knowing that anyone with any disability whatsoever (even a hint of a problem) would be permitted to use a crossbow... I just don't believe everyone should be given the same privilege, that's all.

[Kelly Johnson]

Not sure why it's "supposed to be physically demanding" Kelly. Care to share where that is a requirement of bowhunting?
Why not allow road hunting?
Why can't we shoot from a truck?
Why not let all vehicles into state land and develop 2 tracks through the best areas?

Don't be coy now;):lol:

[Terry Williams]

Because we want it and we want it now.

[Kelly Johnson]

Not sure why it's "supposed to be physically demanding" Kelly. Care to share where that is a requirement of bowhunting?

I'm not denying anyone anything;)

[Kelly Johnson]

Accomodating someone with a less than 80% permanent disability is considered dumbing down now?

What's the gun season?
You can still hunt.:confused:

[butter21]

Not sure why it's "supposed to be physically demanding" Kelly. Care to share where that is a requirement of bowhunting?
Your kidding me right?
Accomodating someone with a less than 80% permanent disability is considered dumbing down now?
So we should just let everyone hunt with crossbows because you don't agree with how its set up now?

[swoosh]

I guess Mr. Martin should just walk a golf course, wait he won:lol:
It's not Bow season, it's archery season;)

Why not hunt with a Rifle in SLP?

Why do some use these high-end can't miss muzzle loaders?

We have law makers to make rules, and if the deem xbows legal for archery season I am going to welcome them as a fellow hunter.

I am an Archery Hunter, not a bowhunter anymore, and yes there is a huge difference;)

[Michihunter]

Why not allow road hunting?
Why can't we shoot from a truck?
Why not let all vehicles into state land and develop 2 tracks through the best areas?

Don't be coy now;):lol:
I believe those regulations are in place for SAFETY. Not to make it harder.:D:D

[Munsterlndr]

First of all your comparisons are invalid because all of the activities that you listed are competitions, hunting is a recreation. Your not competing against anyone. Nobody is asking that the rules be changed for archery meets where you are competing against someone else. Hunting is an individual endeavor.

Secondly, as has been asked by others, where are the guidelines that say bow hunting has to be hard or challenging? I'd love to see them. If that is the case, then were there specific codicils made to the original rules to allow the use of tree stands, camouflage, compounds, trigger releases, scent-lok, range finders, lighted nocks, etc? Bow hunting a difficult endeavor? Who are you guys trying to kid?

Dumbing down? Careful Kelly, that could be construed to be an implied insult to any of the members here who hunt with a crossbow and as you know, insulting other members is against the rules. ;)

And finally to answer the original question, what entitles you? You should amend the question to read "Who" entitles you"? The answer in this case is the State Legislature. They are the ultimate arbiter of determining what laws govern hunting in this State . While we have yet to see the final conclusion, 94-14 in the house is a pretty promising start to providing a definitive answer to your question. :lol:

[Michihunter]

Your kidding me right?

Actually, no I'm not. If bowhunting was "meant" to be hard, why do they keep making it "easier"? Compounds, camo, scent covers, decoys, etc. Sounds as though the "harder" stuff has long passed us by. Of course if you "personally" choose to make things harder, then by all means, feel free to cut down an osage branch, tie a loincloth around your butt and have at it.;)

[DANIEL MARK ZAPOLSKI]

IF ITS SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY DEMANDING THROW AWAY YOUR COMPOUNDS and get a stick bow or a recurve bow. i say this because apparently you don't know that that compound you shoot was invented and developed for people with disabilities, like the person who invented it.
now dumb that down:D

[michigandeerslayer]

IF ITS SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY DEMANDING THROW AWAY YOUR COMPOUNDS and get a stick bow or a recurve bow. i say this because apparently you don't know that that compound you shoot was invented and developed for people with disabilities, like the person who invented it.
now dumb that down:Dwhat he said


I so tired of hearing Poor little bow hunter, you have to have this and that in order to be a "bow hunter" it is getting pretty sad, that it has come to this. When did bow hunting become a physical sport? It makes me sick to hear all the hate going on, if you choose to use a crossbow go for it, if you choose a recurve or a long bow go fo it. If you choose to use a .338wsm go for it

There are worst things going on right now and all you guys can worry about is if someone cant pull a bow or he should be allowed to use a bow

You should support your fellow sportsman and encourage them to get out there and enjoy hunting Not complaining about what weapon they are using

[Kelly Johnson]

First of all your comparisons are invalid because all of the activities that you listed are competitions, hunting is a recreation. Your not competing against anyone. Nobody is asking that the rules be changed for archery meets where you are competing against someone else. Hunting is an individual endeavor.

Secondly, as has been asked by others, where are the guidelines that say bow hunting has to be hard or challenging? I'd love to see them. If that is the case, then were there specific codicils made to the original rules to allow the use of tree stands, camouflage, compounds, trigger releases, scent-lok, range finders, lighted nocks, etc? Bow hunting a difficult endeavor? Who are you guys trying to kid?

Dumbing down? Careful Kelly, that could be construed to be an implied insult to any of the members here who hunt with a crossbow and as you know, insulting other members is against the rules. ;)

And finally to answer the original question, what entitles you? You should amend the question to read "Who" entitles you"? The answer in this case is the State Legislature. They are the ultimate arbiter of determining what laws govern hunting in this State . While we have yet to see the final conclusion, 94-14 in the house is a pretty promising start to providing a definitive answer to your question. :lol:

There's the Curmudgeon:p

Touche my friend;)
As for dumbing down...could we call it "Watering down" and be politically correct?
Dilution of the sport? or recreation if you prefer?
How about a race for the lowest common denominator?
Rising tide of mediocrity?
Any of those work or am I still "Politically incorrect"?

And you guys got me on the "Challenging" part.

You want easy? Use a gun.

But there are some things that aren't written and apparently they need to be.

Though it wouldn't matter if it were, there'd be a boisterous and very vocal few that would howl of the inequities and injustice of it all and never rest until they receive "What's rightfully their privilege".

[Kelly Johnson]

IF ITS SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY DEMANDING THROW AWAY YOUR COMPOUNDS and get a stick bow or a recurve bow. i say this because apparently you don't know that that compound you shoot was invented and developed for people with disabilities, like the person who invented it.
now dumb that down:D

Who said I don't use a longbow?

[ridgewalker]

Kelly, you are great at playing the devil's advocate. It is no more a matter of entitlement for those who need or wish to use a xbow than it is for a combow. It is a matter of opportunity for everyone that wishes to hunt during the greatest time of year in what I consider the best state of the union. After all it is a PUBLIC RESOURCE so it does not belong to one person or group but is for all to enjoy.

[Kelly Johnson]

what he said


I so tired of hearing Poor little bow hunter, you have to have this and that in order to be a "bow hunter" it is getting pretty sad, that it has come to this. When did bow hunting become a physical sport? It makes me sick to hear all the hate going on, if you choose to use a crossbow go for it, if you choose a recurve or a long bow go fo it. If you choose to use a .338wsm go for it

There are worst things going on right now and all you guys can worry about is if someone cant pull a bow or he should be allowed to use a bow

You should support your fellow sportsman and encourage them to get out there and enjoy hunting Not complaining about what weapon they are using

There's no hate here at all:confused:

This is a friendly debate.

To be perfectly honest...I'm rather on the fence about the whole issue but you bring up a good point.
I so tired of hearing Poor little bow hunter, you have to have this and that in order to be a "bow hunter" it is getting pretty sad, that it has come to this

Put CROSS in front of the word BOW in your above statement and you'll see MY perspective.

[Munsterlndr]

there'd be a boisterous and very vocal few that would howl of the inequities and injustice of it all and never rest until they receive "What's rightfully their privilege".

Seems a very apt description of how some vertical bow hunters are reacting towards the prospect of sharing a season which they view, as you so eloquently put it, "What's rightfully their privilege." ;) :lol:

[Kelly Johnson]

Kelly, you are great at playing the devil's advocate. It is no more a matter of entitlement for those who need or wish to use a xbow than it is for a combow. It is a matter of opportunity for everyone that wishes to hunt during the greatest time of year in what I consider the best state of the union. After all it is a PUBLIC RESOURCE so it does not belong to one person or group but is for all to enjoy.

So you walk with a walker for whatever reason and can't mushroom hunt on your own. The state should build you a path for your walker so you can participate?

Lakes that have public access but you can't cast to where the fish are.
We owe you a boat too?:chillin:

[michigandeerslayer]

There's no hate here at all:confused:

This is a friendly debate.

To be perfectly honest...I'm rather on the fence about the whole issue but you bring up a good point.


Put CROSS in front of the word BOW in your above statement and you'll see MY perspective.

Kelly I was not directing those comments towards you, just all I here is either its ok or its the weapon of the devil:evilsmile

So if you took it as i was directing it toward you my sorrys to you

[Kelly Johnson]

Seems a very apt description of how some vertical bow hunters are reacting towards the prospect of sharing a season which they view, as you so eloquently put it, "What's rightfully their privilege." ;) :lol:

See there? We're not so different after all:lol:

[skipper34]

It all comes down to 2 things: greed and selfishness.

[Kelly Johnson]

Kelly I was not directing those comments towards you, just all I here is either its ok or its the weapon of the devil:evilsmile

So if you took it as i was directing it toward you my sorrys to you

I wholeheartedly understand your sentiment.

It's unfortunate some can't argue/debate/discuss without getting emotionally volcanic:lol:

[Kelly Johnson]

It all comes down to 2 things: greed and selfishness.
Couldn't agree more Skipper:cool:

[Munsterlndr]

See there? We're not so different after all:lol:

Apparently we're different in that one of us favors parity and equal opportunity and the other seems to favor a monopoly but maybe I'm mistaken. ;)

[michigandeerslayer]

when it comes down to it, if i could still use a bow I would, but I would also want the option of using a crossbow during archery season for a change of pace.

It is kinda like when I go gun hunting I can use a 12 gauge one day and a .50cal muzleloader then next.

It all depends on what you feel like using that day

It also gives you some bragging rights. I got a deer with this and that and so on

[Kelly Johnson]

Apparently we're different in that one of us favors parity and equal opportunity and the other seems to favor a monopoly but maybe I'm mistaken. ;)

I'd answer Munstey but I don't know what the word "parity" means an I'm too dumb to look it up:D

As for equal opportunity...your bow season is the same as mine I think?:confused::D

Or maybe with that equal opportunity that means I should get to use a rifle during archery season?

Equal opportunity or "opportunity expanded to suit my whims du jour?"

[Munsterlndr]

We lack parity when it comes to use of our weapon of choice during certain dates on the calendar.

Using a rifle during bow season would not give you an equal opportunity, it would give you a substantive advantage. The same is not the case when comparing crossbows and vertical bows, hence the concept of equality (or parity, same thing, there you don't have to look it up. ;))

As far as archery season, I'm already in the woods with a vertical bow (this season with a 99% let-off Concept :evilsmile) which begs the question that I have not seen you answer, how will it impact you or other vertical bow hunters differently if I harvest a deer with my Concept or with a crossbow? It's going to be the same dead deer, either way?

One more question, was Fred Bear exercising a whim du jour when he lobbied for an independent archery season? He had the right to use his weapon of choice during the established firearms season, shouldn't that have been sufficient opportunity to bow hunt or was he being unreasonable when he asked the legislature to change the law to accommodate his desires?

[swampbuck]

if you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a dh.

You probably won't be qb for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've always been qb.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile

simple, because none of those activitie involve harvesting a public resource

[swoosh]

It all comes down to 2 things: greed and selfishness.

Skipper you forgot FEAR;), but I agree with your first two

[benster]

Kelly I hope the day never comes when you are put in the position that you can no longer pull back a bow. I'm sure you would never bring up something like this if that was the case. Would you just stop hunting during the bow season or would you think of using a crossbow so you could be afield, hunting, during the archary season? I vote this the dumbest thread of the month, anyone else?

[Kelly Johnson]

Swooshy...refer to post 23;)
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2193808&postcount=23

Musnster...I looked it up but might have spelled it wrong:D
Boy sure sounds like this is what your talking about though:lol:
par·o·dy [par-uh-dee]
–noun
1. a humorous or satirical imitation of a serious piece of literature or writing: his hilarious parody of Hamlet's soliloquy.
2. a poor or feeble imitation or semblance; travesty: His acting is a parody of his past greatness.


As for Old Freddy...I have know idea what his intentions were. I never got to meet him and won't surmise to know his heart.;)

[Kelly Johnson]

Kelly I hope the day never comes when you are put in the position that you can no longer pull back a bow. I'm sure you would never bring up something like this if that was the case. Would you just stop hunting during the bow season or would you think of using a crossbow so you could be afield, hunting, during the archary season? I vote this the dumbest thread of the month, anyone else?

Awww...come one Benster.
Play along, what else ya got to do on a Monday night?;)

If I couldn't draw...I'd get a chew strap:D
http://www.wnrmag.com/images/photo/2008/apr08/katey.jpg

[Munsterlndr]

As for Old Freddy...I have know idea what his intentions were. I never got to meet him and won't surmise to know his heart.;)

C'mon Kelly, you started this thread and asked for discussion and that's the best you can do when responding to a serious question? Pretty lame! :lol:

I actually asked two serious questions, your serious answers would make a substantive contribution to this thread. ;)

As far as archery season, I'm already in the woods with a vertical bow (this season with a 99% let-off Concept :evilsmile) which begs the question that I have not seen you answer, how will it impact you or other vertical bow hunters differently if I harvest a deer with my Concept or with a crossbow? It's going to be the same dead deer, either way?

One more question, was Fred Bear exercising a whim du jour when he lobbied for an independent archery season? He had the right to use his weapon of choice during the established firearms season, shouldn't that have been sufficient opportunity to bow hunt or was he being unreasonable when he asked the legislature to change the law to accommodate his desires?

[swoosh]

Ok I did:lol:

What entitles you to use a Compoud bow? A law that was changed, hmmmm

Until the haters are willing to strap on a loin cloth, sharpen up some rocks, build a bow just like the indians used, then I don't want to hear it:lol:

I just had to buy a new target tonight.

My new Elite shoots my FMJ 525 grain arrow right through the damn target.

For those who say bowhunting is hard, LOL It's not Rocket Science;)

[Luv2hunteup]

I know it was prior to Al Gore inventing the internet but when Fred Bear lobbied for a separate archery season were there any underlying financial motives? I seem to hear that theme when it comes to crossbows lobbying but it's only from vertical bow advocates. That seems a little odd to me.

:confused:

[TOW]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/crossbow%20kills/Handicappedshootingcrossbow.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/crossbow%20kills/Handicappedshootingcrossbowhog.jpg

[Kelly Johnson]

Jeez....where's Swampy when ya need him.:lol:

I'll stick to my guns on the Fred Bear. Dead men don't talk.
I aint so sure he'd vote for full inclusion in this instance though Munster.


The other...

This has nothing to do with me or how it effects me. It's irrelevant.

The old I ask "Why" and you say "Why not" thing:rolleyes:

[Munsterlndr]

For those who say bowhunting is hard, LOL It's not Rocket Science;)
Well, according to her proud Dad this girl is smart enough to be a rocket scientist, maybe that's why she was able to master the arcane mysteries of the recurve the first time she picked one up! :lol::lol::lol: By the way, the source was one of those ..... um..... "other" forums only frequented by Trad shooters, so he must be telling the truth. ;)

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/Prouddad.jpg

[swoosh]

I know it was prior to Al Gore inventing the internet but when Fred Bear lobbied for a separate archery season were there any underlying financial motives? I seem to hear that theme when it comes to crossbows lobbying but it's only from vertical bow advocates. That seems a little odd to me.

:confused:

I am not sure what you are saying, but I had the pleasure of going to one of Frank Scotts speeches.

He saying "Fred new Archery would never take off unless archery had it's own season" I think Fred saw the money in archery.

Remember no one saw the money in software execpt Bill Gates;)

[Kelly Johnson]

Tow...great pics.
I'm sure she'd have zero issue getting the permit with the regulations as they stand.;)

[swampbuck]

Awww...come one Benster.
Play along, what else ya got to do on a Monday night?;)

If I couldn't draw...I'd get a chew strap:D
http://www.wnrmag.com/images/photo/2008/apr08/katey.jpg


That reminds me one of the anti guys, I think it was S.G or the mbha governor posted a couple days ago that they used one of those TO HARVEST A DOE when they had a broken wrist. The law states that a bow must be drawn ,held, and released by hand. ISNT A MOUTH TAB ILLEGAL

[Kelly Johnson]

That reminds me one of the anti guys, I think it was S.G or the mbha governor posted a couple days ago that they used one of those TO HARVEST A DOE when they had a broken wrist. The law states that a bow must be drawn ,held, and released by hand. ISNT A MOUTH TAB ILLEGAL

Well I don't know?:confused:

By God we'd better get Sheltrown on the case right away and lobby Steve to open a new sub forum!:lol:

[NoWake]

I'll stick to my guns on the Fred Bear. Dead men don't talk.


You don't have to be able to read Fred's mind or even know anything about him to answer Munster's question.

[Tom Morang]

That reminds me one of the anti guys, I think it was S.G or the mbha governor posted a couple days ago that they used one of those TO HARVEST A DOE when they had a broken wrist. The law states that a bow must be drawn ,held, and released by hand. ISNT A MOUTH TAB ILLEGAL


Yes a mouth tab is legal. Always has been.
Maybe you're afraid I could out shoot you with one arm tied behind my back?

For the record I am not an officer of MBH.

And oh ya, I'm not an "anti guy", whatever that means, whoever you are.

[Kelly Johnson]

You don't have to be able to read Fred's mind or even know anything about him to answer Munster's question.

I guess we'll never know.

[swoosh]

Do you think one gets Target panic with the mouth tab:confused:

[Tom Morang]

Do you think one gets Target panic with the mouth tab:confused:

http://http://www.wnrmag.com/images/photo/2008/apr08/katey.jpg


Oh ya.:D It also took me a while to get used to holding the bow with my release hand. Only took two bumps on the head and then I was good to go.:lol:

[November Sunrise]

If you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a DH.

You probably won't be QB for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've ALWAYS been QB.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of Bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile

Your points would be persuasive if your premise was valid. However, your premise that archery is supposed to be physically demanding has no validity, thus your analogies are irrelevant.

[Kelly Johnson]

Easy way out Jeff?;):lol:

[sbooy42]

Easy way out Jeff?;):lol:

Good golly am I glad I went out on the boat to night...Wish I would have had this can of worms with us..:D

Its just not fair ...I wanta use my rifle in Dec...I think the laws should change

[TOW]

Tow...great pics.
I'm sure she'd have zero issue getting the permit with the regulations as they stand.;)

But, the title of this thread is - "What entitles you?"

What entitles you to say how physically challenged a person has to be in order to use a crossbow?

If a person can not shoot a hunting weight vertical bow then that should be enough to "entitle them"

[TOW]

No hands? No problem.

Use your feet...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/crossbow%20kills/Shootingbowwithherfeet.jpg

[November Sunrise]

Easy way out Jeff?;):lol:

No. You obviously don't personally believe that archery is supposed to be physically demanding, and you attempted to craft analogies around that false premise. A debate that's centered around a false premise has no substance.

[Kelly Johnson]

But, the title of this thread is - "What entitles you?"

What entitles you to say how physically challenged a person has to be in order to use a crossbow?

If a person can not shoot a hunting weight vertical bow then that should be enough to "entitle them"

Last statement I agree with 100%

It's not ME that makes that decision any more than it is ME that decides who gets a handicapped license plate or sticker.

[sbooy42]

No. You obviously don't personally believe that archery is supposed to be physically demanding, and you attempted to craft analogies around that false premise. A debate that's centered around a false premise has no substance.

Its not suppose to physically demanding? I did not know that?
Because after 30 arrows I'm pretty shaky...
I even have to turn my bow down just to shot 60 arrows during winter league & I'm still shaky at #50...Please explain to me how to take the physical demand out of archery...I would love to be just as steady on arrow #60 as I was on #1

[Michihunter]

Its not suppose to physically demanding? I did not know that?
Because after 30 arrows I'm pretty shaky...
I even have to turn my bow down just to shot 60 arrows during winter league & I'm still shaky at #50...Please explain to me how to take the physical demand out of archery...I would love to be just as steady on arrow #60 as I was on #1
I think what is trying to be portrayed is that archery has become easier. Bows have become easier. To say that it's supposed to be physically demanding would mean that all the aids and advances are all wrong as well.

[butter21]

Actually, no I'm not. If bowhunting was "meant" to be hard, why do they keep making it "easier"? Compounds, camo, scent covers, decoys, etc. Sounds as though the "harder" stuff has long passed us by. Of course if you "personally" choose to make things harder, then by all means, feel free to cut down an osage branch, tie a loincloth around your butt and have at it.;)
I never said anything about it being hard, we were talking about it being physically demanding.

[Michihunter]

I never said anything about it being hard, we were talking about it being physically demanding.Have you shot a traditional type bow 60 shots in a row? Anyone that has would know that it is FAR more physically demanding (or harder if you wish) than a compound bow of the same DW.

[swampbuck]

maybe you need one of those 99% letoff bows. hell 1% more aint much difference. might as well get a crossbow, I hear they will be legal soon:D

[sbooy42]

I think what is trying to be portrayed is that archery has become easier. Bows have become easier. To say that it's supposed to be physically demanding would mean that all the aids and advances are all wrong as well.

AH I C
Sorry I missed the 1st half:lol:
But when we refer to physical are talking about the act of drawing?
I thought all the sights, releases, peeps ..etc, were to help accuracy and make a better shot...
I also thought the wheels a let-offs were away of generating more KE...
Because I have to admit lately I have pulled back a couple 70lb speedsters that were a SOB to get back..

[Michihunter]

AH I C
Sorry I missed the 1st half:lol:
But when we refer to physical are talking about the act of drawing?
I thought all the sights, releases, peeps ..etc, were to help accuracy and makw a better shot...
I also thought the wheels a let-offs were away of generating more KE...
Because I have to admit lately I have pulled back a couple 70lb speedsters that were a SOB to get back..
Would you agree a trad bow of thew same DW as a compound is MORE physically demanding? That's the point.;)

[butter21]

maybe you need one of those 99% letoff bows. hell 1% more aint much difference. might as well get a crossbow, I hear they will be legal soon:D
I think that the holding your arm straight and the other back is more physically demanding than the actually poundage. But im not everyone so im only speaking for myself. I haven't heard anything about them being legal soon. I have heard that it passed the house though.

[butter21]

Would you agree a trad bow of thew same DW as a compound is MORE physically demanding? That's the point.;)
Yes and No. Yes because once you get it back most compounds have a let off of some sort.
No because you are pulling back the same DW. Also how long do you hold back your trad bow? If you were to hold it back for the same length of time as your compound it would be more physically demanding, but most don't.

[sbooy42]

Would you agree a trad bow of thew same DW as a compound is MORE physically demanding? That's the point.;)
Sure would...And that's exactly why I want to get into traditional hunting...
I got into bowhunting because it poses a challenge...

[swampbuck]

I think that the holding your arm straight and the other back is more physically demanding than the actually poundage. But im not everyone so im only speaking for myself. I haven't heard anything about them being legal soon. I have heard that it passed the house though.

your side has been a little behind on theyre info lately...:lol:

[butter21]

IF ITS SUPPOSED TO BE PHYSICALLY DEMANDING THROW AWAY YOUR COMPOUNDS and get a stick bow or a recurve bow. i say this because apparently you don't know that that compound you shoot was invented and developed for people with disabilities, like the person who invented it.
now dumb that down:D
Crossbows were invented to hunt deer in bow season in Michigan? ;)

[butter21]

your side has been a little behind on theyre info lately...:lol:
Explain?

[sbooy42]

maybe you need one of those 99% letoff bows. hell 1% more aint much difference. might as well get a crossbow, I hear they will be legal soon:D
Main word here is letoff which happens after you have already drawn the bow..much different than cranking or stepping on the weapon an pulling back with both hands and your back and locking at full draw..
With 70lb bow you still at some point have to pull 70lbs typically just before the letoff

[November Sunrise]

Its not suppose to physically demanding?

It can be, but it's not "supposed to be". Archers have no mandate to adhere to the most physically demanding options, and there's no evidence that the majority of archers are interested in the most physically demanding options. Most archers choose technological advances and physical comfort and efficiency in their hunting equipment, clothing, and gear, and who can blame them. For the handful of masochists who labor under the illusion that archery hunting is some great feat of physical accomplishment so be it. They can run around the woods in their bare feet and loin cloths and carrying a longbow and justly feel proud of themselves. If they meander by my stand I'll even toss them down a hand warmer and I'll keep my word to not tell their buddies about their ethical compromise of warming their rear with the heat pack.

[sbooy42]

It can be, but it's not "supposed to be". Archers have no mandate to adhere to the most physically demanding options, and there's no evidence that the majority of archers are interested in the most physically demanding options. Most archers choose technological advances and physical comfort and efficiency in their hunting equipment, clothing, and gear, and who can blame them. For the handful of masochists who labor under the illusion that archery hunting is some great feat of physical accomplishment so be it. They can run around the woods in their bare feet and loin cloths and carrying a longbow and justly feel proud of themselves. If they meander by my stand I'll even toss them down a hand warmer and I'll keep my word to not tell their buddies about their ethical compromise of warming their rear with the heat pack.
So why not just use a gun
I assume you bow-hunt, why?

[Michihunter]

So why not just use a gun
I assume you bow-hunt, why?
I know you asked Jeff but if I may, I hunt archery because I enjoy bowhunting (with both compound and recurve and hopefully soon with a crossbow). I also enjoy the fact that my season is greatly extended as a result. But fear not, I also hunt with a gun.;)

[sbooy42]

I know you asked Jeff but if I may, I hunt archery because I enjoy bowhunting (with both compound and recurve and hopefully soon with a crossbow). I also enjoy the fact that my season is greatly extended as a result. But fear not, I also hunt with a gun.;)
I mean why bowhunting?
Why shouldn't we just push to hunt with a firearm from Oct1 to Jan1
We'd hate to make anything physically demanding and we definitly dont want to leave anyone out..then we could all choose what weapon we want to use for those 3 months

[Michihunter]

I mean why bowhunting?
Why shouldn't we just push to hunt with a firearm from Oct1 to Jan1
We'd hate to make anything physically demanding and we definitly dont want to leave anyone out..then we could all choose what weapon we want to use for those 3 monthsI believe that would pose a safety issue. By separating the seasons you are keeping long distance weapons in an isolated time frame. Not only that, firearms have proven to be a more effective killing weapon than ANY bow and the impact it would place on the herd could be damaging. But safety is the main reason.

[sbooy42]

I believe that would pose a safety issue. By separating the seasons you are keeping long distance weapons in an isolated time frame. Not only that, firearms have proven to be a more effective killing weapon than ANY bow and the impact it would place on the herd could be damaging. But safety is the main reason.
HMM..think I need to go to bed becasue I just read this as Nov15th-Nov31 being a very unsafe time...
Just adds to the already bad taste in mouth...
good night..

[November Sunrise]

So why not just use a gun
I assume you bow-hunt, why?

The analogies between crossbows and guns don't have any intellectual integrity. Play that game with others - I'm only interested in crossbow discussions that provide some level of intellectual aerobics.

Do I bowhunt? Absolutely. Love it. The way my schedule works is that during September and October I largely dedicate myself to taking kids, mine and others, hunting. We duck hunt a little, squirrel hunt a little, unsuccessfully attempt to flush pheasants without the benefit of having a dog, and do the September youth hunt and then some archery hunting in October. Our October archery hunting consists primarily of taking young kids crossbow hunting in Ohio.

Then, once we get to the final day or two of October I pick up my bow. This is the only time of year that I set aside for myself (and my oldest son as well now that he's graduated to using a compound and can be in a separate tree from me). I bowhunt hard during those next 10-12 days. That's my favorite time of year - I love everything about it - the sights, the smells, the sounds, everything.

Once firearm season comes around it's largely back to taking the kids hunting or having kids tag along that are too young to hunt.

Why do I bowhunt? Same reason I've hunted my entire life. Hunting is what I do. At my core I'm a hunter.

[Michihunter]

HMM..think I need to go to bed becasue I just read this as Nov15th-Nov31 being a very unsafe time...
Just adds to the already bad taste in mouth...
good night..
Nov 31st is always a safe day.:D:D

[November Sunrise]

I mean why bowhunting?
Why shouldn't we just push to hunt with a firearm from Oct1 to Jan1
We'd hate to make anything physically demanding and we definitly dont want to leave anyone out..then we could all choose what weapon we want to use for those 3 months

I intend no disrespect, and I know you guys are trying your best, but the old "why shouldn't we just push to hunt with a firearm for 3 months" argument is silly. And as has already been discussed, archery season doesn't exist as a separate entity because it's physically demanding.

I'd encourage you to pick up the phone and contact Rod Clute who heads the Big Game Department for the MI DNR, or call one of his counterparts in neighboring states. Ask one or two of these guys to explain to you what the management and recreational purposes are for archery seasons, for firearm seasons, etc. The arguments that you're putting forth demonstrate that you'd be well served to broaden your understanding of the purposes behind season structure.

[madmike22]

I am with Kelly on this one. I have been and always will be handicapped. I had a degenerative bone disease since i was 12 years old. Because of it i could barely walk anymore until a few years ago when i had my first hip replacement surgery at the old age of 30. My shoulders are sore my bones hurt all the time. I could easily collect disability the rest of my life thats how bad the pain has been for the last 20 or so years. Nothing has ever been easy for me. I have to work very hard for everything i do. I played football, swam, and played baseball all the while the doctor was telling mmy parents i was never going to walk again. I am so sick and tired of people that cant and wont try. Yes its hard. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. I have a really lazy brother in law. Has been on disability for the last 10 years and probably shouldnt be. He has had his cross bow permit for a few years now and only got that because he is to lazy to do it the right way. There are somethings that not everyone can do. Why do we have to make everything easier for every just about every one and i mean just about everyone. There are a few that the laws actually apply to. There are alot of things i want to do that i cant. But guess what i find something else to do or i keep trying at the other. I am so sick of all this crossbow crap. I am going to be out there with my bow till you have to pry it from my dead cold fingers. No everyone should not be hunting with crossbows, they should not have there own season. Crossbows should only be for the people that are truely handicapped. The doctors that lie so the patients can get permits should be heavily fined. Get over it people. Not everything has to be handed to you. Work for it just like the rest of us. There are some very big and clear advantages to using a crossbow. Not everyone should be using one. I could easily get a crossbow permit but i never will. I have arthritis in both shoulders and somedays it hurts like hell. But i will never take a shortcut. Never. Like i said if it was suppose to be easy everyone would be doing it.

[wildcoy73]

Kelly,
All of you above sports do have to provide access to the disable.
They do not have to go threw any permit system to do so either.
This is one area where I see us putting fellow sportsman threw red tape and hoops to enjoy the Archery season.
I also have done alot of research on the crossbow, and have shot a few myself. When the homework is done and the facts are shown, you come to one path. The modern compound is a more powerfull weapon than the crossbow. the compound shots father, carries more energy, and is lighter. Both can be set up with scopes. The onlything diffrent between the two is the crossbow can be kept at full draw. But this was not an advantage for myself. for I would still have to pick the right time to shoulder the crossbow, just as I have to pick the correct time to draw my bow and raise it to shot.
All I can ask Kelly, is for you to do the research for yourself and go out and shot a few at the range and in the woods. Than come back and compare notes with me and we shall see what result you did get.
For the subject of crossbows we all need to get off of will it hurt me, and get into the one thing that matters, will it hurt the resource we all love in a negative way? I Believe you will see the answer to be no. If it was yes than an early doe season would not be needed at all.

[wildcoy73]

I mean why bowhunting?
Why shouldn't we just push to hunt with a firearm from Oct1 to Jan1
We'd hate to make anything physically demanding and we definitly dont want to leave anyone out..then we could all choose what weapon we want to use for those 3 months

sbooy:
Why do most of us bow hunt and would fight till the end if gun season ran for 3 months?
for the piece and silent we get while sitting in the woods.
being able to hear the wood wake up in the am and go to slep in the pm.
None of us are out there because are weapon makes it physical demanding on us. we go out because we like to see an eyelash bkink before we take our shot. We archery hunt to be at one with the whitetail. And as hard as it is for you to believe the crossbow will be the same hunt as ours.
I also gun hunt but will be going to a pistol in the near future for I see no challenge in shooting a deer that is ove 100yard away. I love to be up close to the animal and with the pistol I will get that challenge, for I will not have the range of my 270.

[I'm with Brandy]

If you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a DH.

You probably won't be QB for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've ALWAYS been QB.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of Bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile

According to this line of thought compound bows are dumbing things down too. Maybe only traditional equipment should be legal to use.:evil:

[Munsterlndr]

But i will never take a shortcut. Never. Like i said if it was suppose to be easy everyone would be doing it.

I'd say that your list of impressively high-tech equipment that you employ would contradict the above statement. If you were using a handmade yew bow and cedar arrows with flint tips it might lend more credence to your claim of never taking a shortcut. Who exactly appointed you as the arbiter of what technology constitutes being "lazy" and which technology makes you a "hard worker"? Seems a pretty self serving and arbitrary distinction to criticize others of employing certain technologies while taking advantage of it yourself to take the "easy" way out. :rolleyes:


ELITE SYNERGY
viper archery products h1000 w/2x lens
trophy taker drop away rest
trophy ridge 2 piece quiver
carbon express maxima 350 and easton 340 fmj.
Limbsaver s-coil
Deer=montec gr 85 grain
turkey=fuse strut buster 100 grain

[Dedge]

For the life of me, I have never understood this whole crossbow debate. I honestly don't get where the anger and bitterness comes from. I think that people are just plain crazy. I mean no one is suggesting that EVERYONE IS REQUIRED to use a crossbow. If it means more hunting opportunities for more people then why is it a bad thing? If you don't want to use one then don't.

Just my coupla pennies,
Dan

[Riva]

I am with Kelly on this one. I have been and always will be handicapped. I had a degenerative bone disease since i was 12 years old. Because of it i could barely walk anymore until a few years ago when i had my first hip replacement surgery at the old age of 30. My shoulders are sore my bones hurt all the time. I could easily collect disability the rest of my life thats how bad the pain has been for the last 20 or so years. Nothing has ever been easy for me. I have to work very hard for everything i do. I played football, swam, and played baseball all the while the doctor was telling mmy parents i was never going to walk again. I am so sick and tired of people that cant and wont try. Yes its hard. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. I have a really lazy brother in law. Has been on disability for the last 10 years and probably shouldnt be. He has had his cross bow permit for a few years now and only got that because he is to lazy to do it the right way. There are somethings that not everyone can do. Why do we have to make everything easier for every just about every one and i mean just about everyone. There are a few that the laws actually apply to. There are alot of things i want to do that i cant. But guess what i find something else to do or i keep trying at the other. I am so sick of all this crossbow crap. I am going to be out there with my bow till you have to pry it from my dead cold fingers. No everyone should not be hunting with crossbows, they should not have there own season. Crossbows should only be for the people that are truely handicapped. The doctors that lie so the patients can get permits should be heavily fined. Get over it people. Not everything has to be handed to you. Work for it just like the rest of us. There are some very big and clear advantages to using a crossbow. Not everyone should be using one. I could easily get a crossbow permit but i never will. I have arthritis in both shoulders and somedays it hurts like hell. But i will never take a shortcut. Never. Like i said if it was suppose to be easy everyone would be doing it.


"Crest has been shown to be an effective decay-preventive dentifrice that can be of significant value when used as directed in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care."

You, as the reader of the above quote, may say that comment makes absolutely no sense. Well, actually, it makes about as much sense as the statement above it!":dizzy:

[swoosh]

For the life of me, I have never understood this whole crossbow debate. I honestly don't get where the anger and bitterness comes from. I think that people are just plain crazy. I mean no one is suggesting that EVERYONE IS REQUIRED to use a crossbow. If it means more hunting opportunities for more people then why is it a bad thing? If you don't want to use one then don't.

Just my coupla pennies,
Dan

Great post;)

[Joe Archer]

Well, according to her proud Dad this girl is smart enough to be a rocket scientist, maybe that's why she was able to master the arcane mysteries of the recurve the first time she picked one up! :lol::lol::lol: By the way, the source was one of those ..... um..... "other" forums only frequented by Trad shooters, so he must be telling the truth. ;)

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/Prouddad.jpg

Dang! Imagine how good she could be with a crossbow! :lol::lol::lol:
<----<<<

[Joe Archer]

Have you shot a traditional type bow 60 shots in a row? Anyone that has would know that it is FAR more physically demanding (or harder if you wish) than a compound bow of the same DW.

I disagree 100%
I can shoot my 60 pound recurve ALL! DAY! LONG!
The peak weight on my compound is 70 pounds and I have to hit that on each draw. I also have to hold the bow up, aim and hold a percentage of that weight. The process of shooting a compound is harder on my shoulders and arms than is shooting a recurve. With my recurve as soon as I hit 60 pounds, my finger runs across my anchor point and I release... all in one motion. The fluidity of it all makes it very easy.
<----<<<

[RobFromFlint]

I disagree 100%
I can shoot my 60 pound recurve ALL! DAY! LONG!
The peak weight on my compound is 70 pounds and I have to hit that on each draw. I also have to hold the bow up, aim and hold a percentage of that weight. The process of shooting a compound is harder on my shoulders and arms than is shooting a recurve. With my recurve as soon as I hit 60 pounds, my finger runs across my anchor point and I release... all in one motion. The fluidity of it all makes it very easy.
<----<<<

Definately going to agree with you on that. Being an ex Compound shooter I will say it was more of a task to shoot 100 arrows out of a 55lb compound than my 52lb longbow. Compound bows easily weigh 4 times more than traditional bows and that really affects you. Now, back to topic. I see no validity in the anti-crossbow argument. They are not going to be shooting a gun. It is still a fom of bow. They fire a bolt which is going to drop at distances equal to or less than that of any modern vertical bow. All I see happening is an increase in license sales and maybe an increase in animals harvested. Now, if people have a problem with xbows for everybody, why can't the state designate certain areas vertical bows only. Fly fisherman get exclusive fly only c&r areas, why can't vertical bow users?

[D-BEAVER]

I am with Kelly on this one. I have been and always will be handicapped. I had a degenerative bone disease since i was 12 years old. Because of it i could barely walk anymore until a few years ago when i had my first hip replacement surgery at the old age of 30. My shoulders are sore my bones hurt all the time. I could easily collect disability the rest of my life thats how bad the pain has been for the last 20 or so years. Nothing has ever been easy for me. I have to work very hard for everything i do. I played football, swam, and played baseball all the while the doctor was telling mmy parents i was never going to walk again. I am so sick and tired of people that cant and wont try. Yes its hard. If it was easy everyone would be doing it. I have a really lazy brother in law. Has been on disability for the last 10 years and probably shouldnt be. He has had his cross bow permit for a few years now and only got that because he is to lazy to do it the right way. There are somethings that not everyone can do. Why do we have to make everything easier for every just about every one and i mean just about everyone. There are a few that the laws actually apply to. There are alot of things i want to do that i cant. But guess what i find something else to do or i keep trying at the other. I am so sick of all this crossbow crap. I am going to be out there with my bow till you have to pry it from my dead cold fingers. No everyone should not be hunting with crossbows, they should not have there own season. Crossbows should only be for the people that are truely handicapped. The doctors that lie so the patients can get permits should be heavily fined. Get over it people. Not everything has to be handed to you. Work for it just like the rest of us. There are some very big and clear advantages to using a crossbow. Not everyone should be using one. I could easily get a crossbow permit but i never will. I have arthritis in both shoulders and somedays it hurts like hell. But i will never take a shortcut. Never. Like i said if it was suppose to be easy everyone would be doing it.

You, Sir are an inspiration...

I'd say that your list of impressively high-tech equipment that you employ would contradict the above statement. If you were using a handmade yew bow and cedar arrows with flint tips it might lend more credence to your claim of never taking a shortcut. Who exactly appointed you as the arbiter of what technology constitutes being "lazy" and which technology makes you a "hard worker"? Seems a pretty self serving and arbitrary distinction to criticize others of employing certain technologies while taking advantage of it yourself to take the "easy" way out. :rolleyes:

I can't believe you have the nerve to criticize this man for using perfectly legal archery gear when he could have opted for an easier way out... It's called BOW SEASON, not primitive longbow, flint knapped broadhead and wooden arrow season. He has every right to use the gear he has chosen.

"Crest has been shown to be an effective decay-preventive dentifrice that can be of significant value when used as directed in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care."

You, as the reader of the above quote, may say that comment makes absolutely no sense. Well, actually, it makes about as much sense as the statement above it!":dizzy:

I, for one, understood everything he said...

[boehr]

If you've hurt you shoulder or arm...

You won't be able to bowl anymore.
Maybe we need to boycott bowling alleys that don't have balloon style rubber balls and nerf pins because you can't participate now?

You can't play in the company softball game...so you either sit out or get a DH.

You probably won't be QB for the backyard football game either, you'll probably just have to play another position...even if you've ALWAYS been QB.

How about that golf swing?


If you have an injury that's debilitating enough to exclude you from drawing a compound, but not enough to qualify for a crossbow under the current regulations...you can't physically perform the task of Bowhunting.

Why should the laws change because of you?

It's physically demanding because it's supposed to be.

Why must we dumb every single thing in this country down to the lowest common denominator simply to be politically correct?


Discuss:evilsmile
Kelly, I for one, being a crossbow advocate, agree with you and have used a like saying concerning other things. One comes to mind about physically challenged wanting to be able to sit on the fender of a moving vehicle to hunt about 8 years ago which my reply was, "who said hunting was suppose to be easy".

What you say is also why my reasons against using ADA to get crossbow are what they are and doesn't fly with me. There are no court rulings to prove otherwise regardless how long Michigan's permit process has been in effect and how long ADA has been around. In fact, no court rulings anywhere in the country that I am or have been made aware of.

However, being an advocate of full inclusion, my reasons are that one person using a crossbow has no effect on another choosing to use a vertical bow. It doesn't matter if legalization allows vertical bow hunters to switch to crossbow. It doesn’t matter if the number of hunters will increase or not. Number and type of deer are still regulated and using a crossbow does not give anyone more of an opportunity that someone using a vertical bow has. One might say a crossbow is easier to use then a vertical but then I would counter with a person obviously should have practiced more with their weapon of choice, after all hunting is not suppose to be easy but there are certain things an individual can do to make it easier for them. Regardless how easy the weapon might be the weapon of choice isn’t what brings the deer within range.

I kind of compare the use of crossbows to fishing with a certain number of lines to a degree. Some can use three lines, others can only use two but the limits and sizes of fish are not different for either one and regardless in the end each can only have certain fish. That being said I am also for everyone to be able to use 3 lines, not just trollers.:)

[swoosh]

I can't believe you have the nerve to criticize this man for using perfectly legal archery gear when he could have opted for an easier way out... It's called BOW SEASON, not primitive longbow, flint knapped broadhead and wooden arrow season. He has every right to use the gear he has chosen.


That is not correct, just so you know;) It offically called Archery Season

[D-BEAVER]

That is not correct, just so you know;) It offically called Archery Season

Touche. I deserved to be corrected on that one, but my point remains the same... It's not called primitive archery season, compounds and all of the other gear that was being called into question is perfectly legal.

I find the hypocrisy amusing... this guy is being scrutinized for using a compound bow, realease aid and fall away arrow rest, meanwhile crossbow advocates are being welcomed with open arms...

[Michihunter]

Touche. I deserved to be corrected on that one, but my point remains the same... It's not called primitive archery season, compounds and all of the other gear that was being called into question is perfectly legal.

I find the hypocrisy amusing... this guy is being scrutinized for using a compound bow, realease aid and fall away arrow rest, meanwhile crossbow advocates are being welcomed with open arms...
Beav- The point is that if you use certain arguments to keep crossbows out of the mix and those same arguments can be used against the inclusion of the compound, it negates the argument. Or at least should. It's not about dogging someone for using a compound, but dogging them for the use of the argument against crossbows.

[wildcoy73]

[quote=D-BEAVER;2194720]Touche. I deserved to be corrected on that one, but my point remains the same... It's not called primitive archery season, compounds and all of the other gear that was being called into question is perfectly legal.
Beaver:
I did not change any wording in your above post.
but you hit this one on the head, but for some reason we do not let the crossbow into the season. It is archey, So why is the crossbow not allowed in an archery season? That is the biggest problem I have with this whole thing, why we say the crossbow can not be used in a season allready set up for it.

[swoosh]

Touche. I deserved to be corrected on that one, but my point remains the same... It's not called primitive archery season, compounds and all of the other gear that was being called into question is perfectly legal.

I find the hypocrisy amusing... this guy is being scrutinized for using a compound bow, realease aid and fall away arrow rest, meanwhile crossbow advocates are being welcomed with open arms...

Hey I never said a thing, LOL The guy can hunt with whatever is legal IMO;)

Point is he can choose and if he's having fun that is what it's all about;)

[butter21]

Hey I never said a thing, LOL The guy can hunt with whatever is legal IMO;)

Point is he can choose and if he's having fun that is what it's all about;)
Yup he can, and crossbows aren't legal to hunt with during bow season right now without a permit. :coolgleam

[swoosh]

Yup he can, and crossbows aren't legal to hunt with during bow season right now without a permit. :coolgleam

And you still don't know what the season is called:lol:

[Joe Archer]

Beav- The point is that if you use certain arguments to keep crossbows out of the mix and those same arguments can be used against the inclusion of the compound, it negates the argument. Or at least should. It's not about dogging someone for using a compound, but dogging them for the use of the argument against crossbows.
The bottom line is that even with all of the so called advancements of the compound bow it is STILL EASIER TO LEARN TO SHOOT, AND EASIER TO SHOOT A CROSSBOW MORE CONSISTENTLY.. THUS (I will repeat THUS) it is easier to hunt with the crossbow... (because it is easier to master and easier to shoot).
But all you crossbow advocates should relax... just because it is easier does not mean that it isn't challenging... It is just not as challenging as hunting with a compound. I could take any 12 year old kid who has never stepped a foot in the woods, sit with them and be pretty sure that they would take a deer with a crossbow during the youth season this year. You just can't say the same about 12 year old kids and compounds. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More people in Ohio hunt with crossbows? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More deer are harvested in Ohio with crossbows than compounds? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! If crossbows are allowed to be used by anyone who wishes, Michigan will become like Ohio. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER!
I don't like Ohio all that much. If I did, I would live in Ohio. I mean, looking at that statistics on dating sites one could conclude that there are a shortage of good men in Ohio... WHY? Hrmmmm... I am not sure about that one, but it probably is not as bad as California... :lol:
Anyway, I am happy with Michigan and think I could not find a nicer place to live.
<----<<<

[D-BEAVER]

The bottom line is that even with all of the so called advancements of the compound bow it is STILL EASIER TO LEARN TO SHOOT, AND EASIER TO SHOOT A CROSSBOW MORE CONSISTENTLY.. THUS (I will repeat THUS) it is easier to hunt with the crossbow... (because it is easier to master and easier to shoot).
But all you crossbow advocates should relax... just because it is easier does not mean that it isn't challenging... It is just not as challenging as hunting with a compound. I could take any 12 year old kid who has never stepped a foot in the woods, sit with them and be pretty sure that they would take a deer with a crossbow during the youth season this year. You just can't say the same about 12 year old kids and compounds. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More people in Ohio hunt with crossbows? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More deer are harvested in Ohio with crossbows than compounds? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! If crossbows are allowed to be used by anyone who wishes, Michigan will become like Ohio. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER!
I don't like Ohio all that much. If I did, I would live in Ohio. I mean, looking at that statistics on dating sites one could conclude that there are a shortage of good men in Ohio... WHY? Hrmmmm... I am not sure about that one, but it probably is not as bad as California... :lol:
Anyway, I am happy with Michigan and think I could not find a nicer place to live.
<----<<<

Well said, Joe.

[Michihunter]

The bottom line is that even with all of the so called advancements of the compound bow it is STILL EASIER TO LEARN TO SHOOT, AND EASIER TO SHOOT A CROSSBOW MORE CONSISTENTLY.. THUS (I will repeat THUS) it is easier to hunt with the crossbow... (because it is easier to master and easier to shoot).
But all you crossbow advocates should relax... just because it is easier does not mean that it isn't challenging... It is just not as challenging as hunting with a compound. I could take any 12 year old kid who has never stepped a foot in the woods, sit with them and be pretty sure that they would take a deer with a crossbow during the youth season this year. You just can't say the same about 12 year old kids and compounds. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More people in Ohio hunt with crossbows? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! More deer are harvested in Ohio with crossbows than compounds? Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER! If crossbows are allowed to be used by anyone who wishes, Michigan will become like Ohio. Why? BECAUSE CROSSBOW HUNTING IS EASIER!
I don't like Ohio all that much. If I did, I would live in Ohio. I mean, looking at that statistics on dating sites one could conclude that there are a shortage of good men in Ohio... WHY? Hrmmmm... I am not sure about that one, but it probably is not as bad as California... :lol:
Anyway, I am happy with Michigan and think I could not find a nicer place to live.
<----<<<

Crossbow "shooting" may be easier. Hunting is still creating opportunity to "shoot". ;)

[Joe Archer]

Crossbow "shooting" may be easier. Hunting is still creating opportunity to "shoot". ;)
I am sure I could afford that opportunity to any 12 year old with a crossbow in short fashion. Only one of my children has taken a deer with a compound bow at 12 years of age. In fact, to this day she is the only one of my 3 kids to have taken a deer during the archery season. If the new law is passed, we might just see an increase in that ratio. :yikes:
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

I am sure I could afford that opportunity to any 12 year old with a crossbow in short fashion. Only one of my children has taken a deer with a compound bow at 12 years of age. In fact, to this day she is the only one of my 3 kids to have taken a deer during the archery season. If the new law is passed, we might just see an increase in that ratio. :yikes:
<----<<<
I personally would consider that a "good" thing. Wouldn't you?

[Joe Archer]

I personally would consider that a "good" thing. Wouldn't you?
I think that is where we differ. I would consider it a sad thing if my sons were to put down ther bows and take to the crossbow. Again, it is not about the destination but more about the journey.
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

I think that is where we differ. I would consider it a sad thing if my sons were to put down ther bows and take to the crossbow. Again, it is not about the destination but more about the journey.
<----<<<
I guess I understand your point and in a way I almost agree. But in the end, shouldn't you trust in your guidance and allow them to make that decision?

[swoosh]

Joe I took a 12 year kid with a compund and did the same thing:lol:

We set it up, he practice a bit, we got a deer;)

Really I for one cannot understand why anyone is worried about if a guys pulls and shoots or just shoots:dizzy:

[wildcoy73]

place I hunt I could be pretty sure I could give a ten year old a shot at deer with a bow too. But if I can increase the percentage of a human kill with allowing that same ten year old to hunt with a crossbow than I am all for it. With teaching and education I would say my kids would put down the crossbow and become compound bow hunter latter in life.
So this is a starting block to introduce people to the world of archery. We all get bored with a weapon and sooner or latter think it is to easy, so what we do is switch weapon to add something diffrent to our hunt.
If this was not so all turkey hunters would be out with the shotgun. But like many I found that easy for me and Have went to the bow for my turkey hunts. Progress in the hunt

[swoosh]

So

Carbon
mech Heads
Releases
Binary
Single
Dampeners
scentLok
Gortex
Carbon limbs
QDMA
TDMA
Baiting
High Fence
Leases
Outfitters

Could not bring down archery hunting, but an archery device invented before all of the above will do so:lol:

Think about that;)

[butter21]

And you still don't know what the season is called:lol:
It's not called crossbow season. ;)
Joe I took a 12 year kid with a compund and did the same thing:lol:

We set it up, he practice a bit, we got a deer;)

Really I for one cannot understand why anyone is worried about if a guys pulls and shoots or just shoots:dizzy:
Just think how much easier it would have been if he used a crossbow.

[swoosh]

It's not called crossbow season. ;)

Just think how much easier it would have been if he used a crossbow.

Yeah it was tough:lol: The next year we shot a doe in the youth season.

If one uses a bit of common sense, one should see how much more practicle a compound bow is for a youth in a tree. To me an Xbow is to big and front heavy for a youth. They would need a rest in a tree. To me that limits the range one can shoot. I can shoot almost behind me with my bow. I would say a bow is easier:lol:

It's not called crossbow season. ;)

Boy you got me there:lol:

[butter21]

Yeah it was tough:lol: The next year we shot a doe in the youth season.

If one uses a bit of common sense, one should see how much more practicle a compound bow is for a youth in a tree. To me an Xbow is to big and front heavy for a youth. They would need a rest in a tree. To me that limits the range one can shoot. I can shoot almost behind me with my bow. I would say a bow is easier:lol:

You guys say that your kids will be using one, then you say its harder than a compound. You guys crack me up, btw its not harder than a compound. ;)

[swoosh]

You guys say that your kids will be using one, then you say its harder than a compound. You guys crack me up, btw its not harder than a compound. ;)

So you have used one?

In a Tree?

I have not, I have handle my grandfathers for him, and I find them to heavy and clumsey.

In 06 I shot my deer almost behind me, there is noway I could have made that shot unless I had my vertical bow in that tree.

Are there shots where an xbow is easier, yep. I see a use for one in a big CRP field where I can lay on my belly and ambush a whitetail.

Will I own a xbow, no I have no use for one. I believe folks are ENTITLED;) to a choice:cool:

[butter21]

So you have used one?

In a Tree?

I have not, I have handle my grandfathers for him, and I find them to heavy and clumsey.

In 06 I shot my deer almost behind me, there is noway I could have made that shot unless I had my vertical bow in that tree.

Are there shots where an xbow is easier, yep. I see a use for one in a big CRP field where I can lay on my belly and ambush a whitetail.

Will I own a xbow, no I have no use for one. I believe folks are ENTITLED;) to a choice:cool:
I agree with all of that except the last sentence. ;) But that just boils down to personal opinion. BTW the new crossbows are alot like new compounds every year they get lighter and less bulky. ;)

[swoosh]

I agree with all of that except the last sentence. ;) But that just boils down to personal opinion. BTW the new crossbows are alot like new compounds every year they get lighter and less bulky. ;)

So choice is not for you? So I hope to have your support on AR's than;)

As for my kids, if they can pull back a bow at 35 lbs that is what they will use when they turn 10. If not we will use gramps xbow

My daughter will be up first, she might be picky, she's used to holding full size deer;)
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_5439.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_1938.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_1979.jpg

[butter21]

So choice is not for you? So I hope to have your support on AR's than;)

As for my kids, if they can pull back a bow at 35 lbs that is what they will use when they turn 10. If not we will use gramps xbow

My daughter will be up first, she might be picky, she's used to holding full size deer;)
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_5439.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_1938.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q304/swooshjr/IMG_1979.jpg
If someone so badly wants to kill a deer with their crossbow then you can use one during gun season. If someone just wants to use one because they want to try something new then they can use one during gun season. Just like some people love using their compound so they use it during gun season.

The law hasn't passed yet as most of you pro crossbow inclusion people are forgetting.

[Munsterlndr]

I can't believe you have the nerve to criticize this man for using perfectly legal archery gear when he could have opted for an easier way out... It's called BOW SEASON, not primitive longbow, flint knapped broadhead and wooden arrow season. He has every right to use the gear he has chosen.


You need to work on your reading comprehension. I'm criticizing him for criticizing others who wish to employ advanced technology, while emphasizing that he makes use of other types of advanced technology. That is a text book example of hypocrisy. I could care less what type of equipment he chooses to employ, I'm only asking the same tolerance in return but it is obviously lacking based on what he said in his original post.

[TOW]

The bottom line is that even with all of the so called advancements of the compound bow it is STILL EASIER TO LEARN TO SHOOT, AND EASIER TO SHOOT A CROSSBOW MORE CONSISTENTLY.. THUS (I will repeat THUS) it is easier to hunt with the crossbow... (because it is easier to master and easier to shoot).
<----<<<


It doesn't get much easier than this.........

From Archery Talk

First deer on first hunt

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deer and 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer rite in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the first time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer

[TOW]

crossbow "shooting" may be easier. hunting is still creating opportunity to "shoot". ;)

bingo!!

[butter21]

It doesn't get much easier than this.........

From Archery Talk

First deer on first hunt

my cousin (seth) came home with me after school yesterday.he said he wanted to go hunt with me..he had never been bow hunting or shot a bow until about 3:30 yeasterday afternoon.he shot my bow(pse typhoon) for about 30 min.s and could group hit arrows in about a 4inch group at 20 yards so i told him if a spike came out he could shoot at it.well i have my ameristep blind in the edge of a 60 acre wheat field.every time i have been in that blind i see 15+ deerand 10+ within shooting distance.so we loaded up about 4 o clock and took the video camera and tripod and a extra seat(a five gallon bucket)for seth.we got to the blind about 5 and set up the camera and got everything ready.then 3 does came out and ate rite in front of us(i put corn out before we got in the blind at about 15 yards)then 3 more showed up.well they ate for at least 20mins and then started lookin in the brush like something was fixin to come out.then they just meander off down the tree line.i look up and at about 25 yrds a spike is just walkin rite to us. i gave seth the bow as soon as he got the camera and tripod set out of the way. the spike walks rite to us and stands broad side at about 12yrds. seth draws the bow aims and whack he hits the spike it takes off like a striped ass ape and runs about 15yrds stops takes two staggerin steps sideways and falls over DEAD and never gave a twich.well after about five mins he said our 30mins has to be up and then i explained the process of bleeding a deer out no matter how close he falls.(and i wanted to see the bigger buck that i had been trying to kill for about a week)well he shot the spike at about 6 20 less than 2 hours had he spend bow hunting and since it didnt get dark until about 7:15 or so we stayed in the stand about 30 mins after the spike the big buck comes into the field and passes at about 40 yards just a few yards out of range.we he runs does all over the field and then goes to the far side so we crawl out of the tent and film the find of the deer.he shot it with a 100 grain 3 blade muzzy BH and a 5575 gold-tip arrow and about 60# he didnt get a pass through but he hit the deer rite in the white spot under the left leg the arrow came out about half way down his ribs and stuck out about 4 inchs or so when the deer had turn to run he broke my arrow smooth off and almost in half when we got the deer home and guted it i took the heart out and he had cut the bottom of the heart with 2 of the 3 blades opening up both of the bigger chambers of the heart..it was one heck of a shot......one of the best shots i have ever seen(and im not tryin to start the whole double lung VS heart shot debate)it was a good shot and even better recovery.we could see the spot where he had laid down in the weeds about 20 yrds for the blind. it was the greatest hunt i have ever taken anyone on and by far the quickest time from the first time to ever shoot a bow to the time you kill your first buck

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120896&highlight=first+and+deer
It sounds to me like they were illegal but w/e. Anyway I guess i would rather be lucky then good.

[TOW]

It sounds to me like they were illegal but w/e.

Not relevent to the conversation but I would have to ask how do you come to that conclusion?

Anyway I guess i would rather be lucky then good.

"Lucky and good" is also not relevent ot the conversation. We are discussing "easier" only...

He never picked up a vertical bow before, shot a 1/2 hour in the back yard and promptly heart shot drills a deer....

[duckhunter382]

So you walk with a walker for whatever reason and can't mushroom hunt on your own. The state should build you a path for your walker so you can participate?

Lakes that have public access but you can't cast to where the fish are.
We owe you a boat too?:chillin:
Myself I am perfectly capable of shooting any bow but I would love to have a reason to buy a crossbow and you can bet it would come in handy during december. Now to give a different point of view, crossbows have been around longer than compound bows and they are allowed so why is a crossbow any different. and to be honest hand thrown spears have been around longer than long bows and then rocks have been used even longer than that. If you think that hunting should be hard then maybe you should try to take a deer on with a rock. Myself I could settle for a crossbow.

[November Sunrise]

So you have used one?

In a Tree?

I have not, I have handle my grandfathers for him, and I find them to heavy and clumsey.

In 06 I shot my deer almost behind me, there is noway I could have made that shot unless I had my vertical bow in that tree.

I have a fair amount of experience in taking children hunting with a crossbow in Ohio. In all cases they're using a crossbow because they can't pull minimum poundage yet for a compound (I don't let the kids hunt with a compound until they're able to be proficient with a 35 lb bow).

What we hunt out of are two person ladder stands with a shooting rail and a home made burlap skirt. The best way I can explain it is that the child's range basically covers a little more than a 180 degree radius. In other words, if the deer is in a spot where the child can rest the crossbow on the shooting rail and the deer's within 20 yards history shows that we're going to be riding home with a deer in the bed of the pickup. On the other hand, on a couple of different occasions we've had the scenario where a deer was behind us and I was attempting to get my son to get in position to take a shot and without the benefit of resting the bow on the shooting rail he couldn't come close to being steady enough for me to give him the ok to take the shot. From a youth hunter perspective, a shot where the crossbow can be rested on the shooting rail is relatively simple. A shot where they have to turn behind and thus lose the benefit of the rest is much more difficult and would be easier to make with a vertical bow.

[butter21]

Not relevent to the conversation but I would have to ask how do you come to that conclusion?



"Lucky and good" is also not relevent ot the conversation. We are discussing "easier" only...

He never picked up a vertical bow before, shot a 1/2 hour in the back yard and promptly heart shot drills a deer....
So are you saying that a crossbow is just as easy to SHOT as compound. :lol:

[Falk]

Being able to rest it on the rail of your blind makes it sound an awful lot like shooting some sort of firearm. Sorry but that is not a bow.

[Munsterlndr]

Being able to rest it on the rail of your blind makes it sound an awful lot like shooting some sort of firearm. Sorry but that is not a bow.

Then based purely on similarities a vertical bow must not be a bow because a pistol is certainly "some sort of firearm" and you normally hold a pistol with your arm fully extended and locked in the same unsupported manner as you do when holding a vertical bow.

Get over it, a crossbow is a form of bow, no matter how much you guys try you are never going to be able to convince the majority of rational people that a crossbow is a firearm. :rolleyes:

[butter21]

Then based purely on similarities a vertical bow must not be a bow because a pistol is certainly "some sort of firearm" and you normally hold a pistol with your arm fully extended and locked in the same unsupported manner as you do when holding a vertical bow.

Get over it, a crossbow is a form of bow, no matter how much you guys try you are never going to be able to convince the majority of rational people that a crossbow is a firearm. :rolleyes:
The way you hold it is still the same as a firearm or maybe the way you hold a firearm is the same as a crossbow. ;) The way you hold a compound or recurve is unique, and isn't really like any other weapon that we hunt with.

[November Sunrise]

Being able to rest it on the rail of your blind makes it sound an awful lot like shooting some sort of firearm. Sorry but that is not a bow.

I hear ya man.

And believe me, I emphasize to the kids at every opportunity that it's not a legitimate real bow like a compound is. For example, when one of my sons took his first buck with a crossbow at age 9 he made the mistake of breaking into a grin when he successfully tracked and found his buck. I immediately jumped down his throat and reminded him that it didn't really mean much since he had shot the deer with, in my words, "a stinking crossbow". Teaching moments like that are important so that they eventually begin to understand the differences between a real bow as compared to a crossbow.

I also don't permit the kids to smile for any pictures with deer that they've taken with this illegitimate weapon. Whenever they shoot a deer with the crossbow and want to call their grandpa to tell him about it I don't let them, as I again take that opportunity to remind them that it really doesn't count because of the weapon they used. Plus, it's not like cell phone minutes grow on trees.

On my son's first buck we even put a little plaque below the shoulder mount. The plaque includes his name and the date of the kill and then a super sized asterisk with an accompanying explanation to help everyone to understand that the deer didn't fall victim to a real bow such as a compound.

As best as I can tell, based on his physical maturity, it looks like my 2nd oldest son (who will be 12 in October) will be hunting with a crossbow for 2 more falls (including this one) before he's finally able to man up and use a compound. Right now I put him through a 90 minute regimen each morning of pushups, pullups, etc and continually scream at him that he needs to get stronger so that he can begin to use a real bow, but it just doesn't seem like he's making much progress. Maybe I should expand to 2 hours daily? Anyway, I've already begun to talk with him about the fact that when the day arrives where he can use a real bow he's not going to be permitted to ever again mention the hunts we went on and the deer he bagged while hunting with that high velocity crossgun. With the wisdom that you and others are sharing on this topic I'm even starting to think that maybe it would have just been better to have forgone the 3-4 falls of crossbow hunting and made him wait until he was 13 or 14 rather than have to go through this cumbersome process of memory elimination and purging.

Anyways, like you said man, a crossbow just isn't a real bow like a compound is, and believe me I'm doing everything possible to reinforce that fact with the kids I take out.

[michigandeerslayer]

I hear ya man.

And believe me, I emphasize to the kids at every opportunity that it's not a legitimate real bow like a compound is. For example, when one of my sons took his first buck with a crossbow at age 9 he made the mistake of breaking into a grin when he successfully tracked and found his buck. I immediately jumped down his throat and reminded him that it didn't really mean much since he had shot the deer with, in my words, "a stinking crossbow". Teaching moments like that are important so that they eventually begin to understand the differences between a real bow as compared to a crossbow.

I also don't permit the kids to smile for any pictures with deer that they've taken with this illegitimate weapon. Whenever they shoot a deer with the crossbow and want to call their grandpa to tell him about it I don't let them, as I again take that opportunity to remind them that it really doesn't count because of the weapon they used. Plus, it's not like cell phone minutes grow on trees.

On my son's first buck we even put a little plaque below the shoulder mount. The plaque includes his name and the date of the kill and then a super sized asterisk with an accompanying explanation to help everyone to understand that the deer didn't fall victim to a real bow such as a compound.

As best as I can tell, based on his physical maturity, it looks like my 2nd oldest son (who will be 12 in October) will be hunting with a crossbow for 2 more falls (including this one) before he's finally able to man up and use a compound. Right now I put him through a 90 minute regimen each morning of pushups, pullups, etc and continually scream at him that he needs to get stronger so that he can begin to use a real bow, but it just doesn't seem like he's making much progress. Maybe I should expand to 2 hours daily? Anyway, I've already begun to talk with him about the fact that when the day arrives where he can use a real bow he's not going to be permitted to ever again mention the hunts we went on and the deer he bagged while hunting with that high velocity crossgun. With the wisdom that you and others are sharing on this topic I'm even starting to think that maybe it would have just been better to have forgone the 3-4 falls of crossbow hunting and made him wait until he was 13 or 14 rather than have to go through this cumbersome process of memory elimination and purging.

Anyways, like you said man, a crossbow just isn't a real bow like a compound is, and believe me I'm doing everything possible to reinforce that fact with the kids I take out.


You are a role model I hope My kids never ever run into. You should be happy that these kids are hunting and then tell them they cant smile because they used a crossbow

Wow is all I can say

[November Sunrise]

You are a role model I hope My kids never ever run into. You should be happy that these kids are hunting and then tell them they cant smile because they used a crossbow

Wow is all I can say

So you don't think it's helpful to chastise and humiliate them because they're not using a real bow such as a compound?

[michigandeerslayer]

So you don't think it's helpful to chastise and humiliate them because they're not using a real bow such as a compound?

I really hope you are joking, if not God help those kids to mentored by the likes of someone like yourself

[swampbuck]

Being able to rest it on the rail of your blind makes it sound an awful lot like shooting some sort of firearm. Sorry but that is not a bow.

http://www.bowstabilizer.net/images/shooting%20ebay2.JPG

like this....

http://www.bobuddy.com/index_files/image4931.jpg

or maybe this....

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/41/70/72/i417072sq01.jpg

WOULDNT WANT TO MAKE IT TOO EASY... how about this one.:lol:

musterlandr, You should pick up the second one to display that 99% let off at the senate hearing! and attach one of those hidden draw bow blinds to it for good measure.

[November Sunrise]

I really hope you are joking, if not God help those kids to mentored by the likes of someone like yourself

Well, I suppose I could rub out the asterisk on his plaque? Or maybe let him call grandpa collect, or possibly cut down on the physical training:confused:??

I'm a good parent. Really I am. It's just so confusing because I want so badly for the kids to be able to use a real bow. And not just a real bow, but a compound bow, like all of the legitimate hunters do. It's just so embarrassing that we're using a crossbow to hunt these deer. It just makes me feel so... I don't know... dirty I guess.

[Kelly Johnson]

Let's keep it on topic and away from getting personal gentlemen.

Much obliged;)

[TOW]

Very tongue in cheek.....

But, I'll bet some dads feel that way. Too bad..

We should get our kids hooked and then let them choose which piece of archery hunting gear that they want to use..

[Kelly Johnson]

What say we allow 12-14 to use a crossbow
Knock back the handicap to 20% permanent disabled or if there's just no way you can draw a bow.

Would that be a reasonable compromise?

[swampbuck]

What say we allow 12-14 to use a crossbow
Knock back the handicap to 20% permanent disabled or if there's just no way you can draw a bow.

Would that be a reasonable compromise?


the time for compromise is past. maybe the MBHA should have considered that a few years ago. Not that it would have lasted forever, but it may have brought them a few years more......oh well, to late now.

[swoosh]

Kelly I think youths can hunt when there ten now, we should not "let" them, we should give them a choice.

Tell them the pluses and minus of each choice. The benefits are not only in how the weapon shoots.

I plan on teaching my kids about Traditional, compound and maybe some day xbows(if the moition pass).

[Dedge]

OK I read this whole thread. So I feel obliged to speak some more of my mind. I guess I should apologize for that.:lol: But seriously, I honestly don't get it. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I really am not. But what is the big deal? Are people actually that "fundamentally opposed" to it because "it's not a bow". I mean... is your opinion so strong about it not being a bow that it will somehow lessen any deer you take with your bow? It's not like they are being forced on anyone. Are you that concerned about what everyone else is doing? It's archery season, why shouldn't you be able to choose which archery implement you use?


For the record: Would I buy one? Absolutely. But I wouldn't use it during early archery season.(I still have to get one with my bow) Not yet anyway. But I would love one for the late season. I bowhunt Keweenaw county and it gets pretty dog gone cold in late december. I know of several people that missed good deer, because it was in the single digits and they couldn't pull the bow back after a couple hours in a tree. Not without shaking terribly anyway.

Those are my thoughts. And I really hope someone can clear this up for me in the next ten pages or so.:lol:


Dan

[butter21]

What say we allow 12-14 to use a crossbow
Knock back the handicap to 20% permanent disabled or if there's just no way you can draw a bow.

Would that be a reasonable compromise?
Nope none of them want that. Why? Because that would mean they couldn't use a crossbow. It's not the fact that they want to use a crossbow. It's the fact that they bring the disabled, children, and wives into the reasons that they want full inclusion, when the main reason is that they want to use a crossbow themselves.

[sputty]

Heres a compromise:
80% disabled = crossbows
79% disabled = compounds
Others = traditional
Everyone else, too bad, you cannot participate. This includes youths, elderly, woman and anyone else that would like to just go hunt. This is our season!

[TOW]

Nope none of them want that. Why? Because that would mean they couldn't use a crossbow. It's not the fact that they want to use a crossbow. It's the fact that they bring the disabled, children, and wives into the reasons that they want full inclusion, when the main reason is that they want to use a crossbow themselves.

Not quite up to par on reading comprehension are you?

What we have said about "the disabled, children, and wives" is that the legalization or full inclusion of the crossbow into the archery season WILL bring them into hunting where they are not presently at.

Excellent reasons....

Heck yes we want EVERYONE to have a choice in archery hunting tools including "the disabled, children, and wives" AND each and every one of US.

Even you if you so chosed to.

[swoosh]

Heres a compromise:
80% disabled = crossbows
79% disabled = compounds
Others = traditional
Everyone else, too bad, you cannot participate. This includes youths, elderly, woman and anyone else that would like to just go hunt. This is our season!


I am ashamed to be a hunter with comments like this:sad:

[butter21]

Not quite up to par on reading comprehension are you?

What we have said about "the disabled, children, and wives" is that the legalization or full inclusion of the crossbow into the archery season WILL bring them into hunting where they are not presently at.

Excellent reasons....

Heck yes we want EVERYONE to have a choice in archery hunting tools including "the disabled, children, and wives" AND each and every one of US.

Even you if you so chosed to.
His idea would bring children and disabled into archery as well...

[sputty]

I am ashamed to be a hunter with comments like this:sad:
I've been hearing comments like this for months. The ones that should be ashamed are the MBH and their agenda. But I guess I should'nt stoop to their level? nahhhh. When one wants me to be disabled, to hunt with a comparable weapon (the weapon of my choice) I get a little worked-up.I'll stand by my comment!:rant:

[boehr]

Many posts have been deleted because they were personal, sarcastic, not needed or just didn't relate to the topic. As Kelly stated above, stay on topic without getting personal. If some can't we might have pages of a thread with one or two posts and the majority of posts deleted. Disagree but disagree about the topic and topic ONLY!

[2PawsRiver]

I think you're wasting your time Kelly. I quit debating the issue because it's like debating with somebody that speaks a different language.

I undertand the concept you started out with. The concept that Bow Hunting was a right of passage, something you asipried to as a kid. My first bow was a 25 pound recurve at 9 and I was hell on the Rabbits. Wanted to Deer Hunt. Saved my Lawn Mowing, Hay Hauling, Chores Money until I bought a fancy 45 pound Bear Recurve at a Garage Sale. Shot and Shot and Shot and three years later and when I could demonstrate that I was able to draw, hold and shoot accurately, I got to Deer Hunt.

This generation is not an "earn it, work hard for it" generation. The concept that you're thinking of has pretty much died and the majority won't have any idea of what you're talking about.

You go ahead and keep plugging away and trying, theres always that chance that one may actually catch on.;)

[Riva]

What say we allow 12-14 to use a crossbow
Knock back the handicap to 20% permanent disabled or if there's just no way you can draw a bow.

Would that be a reasonable compromise?

An answer in one word: NO!

That's because your suggestion accommodates only a portion of one of the two subsets that make up the whole; specifically:

Group #1: Those who want to participate but cannot (above)

Group: #2: Those who want to participate but are excluded

Within Group #1, there is a 100% chance that there will be those who do not meet even the 20% criteria however; he/she is still unable to pull or hold a bow. You then include facilitating those that "there's just no way to pull a bow". Well, if the latter is the case, why even have the 20% criteria or, for that matter, even a 1% criterion? The criterion that prevails is "that there's just no way that you can pull a bow".

In that regard, Kelly, you and I are in violent agreement! Yepper, we agree! The ONLY way to address the disability issue is to do what many other enlighten states have done which basically, boils down to keeping government the hell out of the way!

Those enlighten states are not in the business of defining the type of a permanent or temporary disability or the degree of its severity. Rather, they simply require that a person obtain and produce a letter from one’s own physician that states, in his/her professional opinion, you have a disability, permanent or temporary, to a degree of severity that render you unable to pull or hold a bow.

That's it. That's all it is. It's exactly what Kelly describes above: "there's just no way you can draw a bow."

There will be those who shout: "But ya gotta have criteria!' And, to those I say: "We have criteria: "My doctor says that I have a disability to the degree of severity that renders me unable to pull a bow." That, IS criteria.

And, that brings us to Group #2, those who want to use a crossbow but are excluded. You state we should allow children age 12-14 (actually, a 10-year old can hunt in the archery season). I will add other subsets: persons of age. And perhaps the largest contingent within subset #2, those between the age 40-and 45 where countless and irrefutable statistics illustrate that they leave archery hunting altogether, and never return.

The "solution" is not more medical criteria and government injecting itself into my medical affairs. The solution is not to address each individual subset within group #2 with a new level of bureaucracy. The solution is full inclusion. Everything else then becomes a moot issue.

So, if you think free choice makes sense then, I encourage you to email your Michigan Senator and tell him/her to vote in favor of HB5741 H2: a bill that will allow for full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where archery equipment is currently permitted.

Here’s how to find your senator:
http://www.senate.michigan.gov/FindYourSenator/michiganfys.asp

[butter21]

An answer in one word: NO!

That's because your suggestion accommodates only a portion of one of the two subsets that make up the whole; specifically:

Group #1: Those who want to participate but cannot (above)

Group: #2: Those who want to participate but are excluded

Within Group #1, there is a 100% chance that there will be those who do not meet even the 20% criteria however; he/she is still unable to pull or hold a bow. You then include facilitating those that "there's just no way to pull a bow". Well, if the latter is the case, why even have the 20% criteria or, for that matter, even a 1% criterion? The criterion that prevails is "that there's just no way that you can pull a bow".

In that regard, Kelly, you and I are in violent agreement! Yepper, we agree! The ONLY way to address the disability issue is to do what many other enlighten states have done which basically, boils down to keeping government the hell out of the way!

Those enlighten states are not in the business of defining the type of a permanent or temporary disability or the degree of its severity. Rather, they simply require that a person obtain and produce a letter from one’s own physician that states, in his/her professional opinion, you have a disability, permanent or temporary, to a degree of severity that render you unable to pull or hold a bow.

That's it. That's all it is. It's exactly what Kelly describes above: "there's just no way you can draw a bow."

There will be those who shout: "But ya gotta have criteria!' And, to those I say: "We have criteria: "My doctor says that I have a disability to the degree of severity that renders me unable to pull a bow." That, IS criteria.

And, that brings us to Group #2, those who want to use a crossbow but are excluded. You state we should allow children age 12-14 (actually, a 10-year old can hunt in the archery season). I will add other subsets: persons of age. And perhaps the largest contingent within subset #2, those between the age 40-and 45 where countless and irrefutable statistics illustrate that they leave archery hunting altogether, and never return.

The "solution" is not more medical criteria and government injecting itself into my medical affairs. The solution is not to address each individual subset within group #2 with a new level of bureaucracy. The solution is full inclusion. Everything else then becomes a moot issue.

So, if you think free choice makes sense then, I encourage you to email your Michigan Senator and tell him/her to vote in favor of HB5741 H2: a bill that will allow for full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where archery equipment is currently permitted.

Here’s how to find your senator:
http://www.senate.michigan.gov/FindYourSenator/michiganfys.asp


So everyone can't use a crossbow....;) If you can't pull back a bow you can get a permit, you still don't like that idea. :lol:

[TOW]

Riva,

It even goes further that "drawing a bow back".

Being an "old guy" myself I know that the song "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones" is 100% spot on.

There can be a day when a bowhunter could pull his bow back 25 or so times. The next day he can't even break it over.

If the judgement criteria is just "drawing a bow back" then what happens if that person can do it once, but cant do it enough to practice? If there is such a thing a "drawing a bow back" it should be tied in with "drawing a bow back" enough times in a certain time period (say one hour) to stay proficient.

BUT.. as you said the easiest way around the "physically challenged" criteria is to allow EVERYONE the use of a crossbow,.

Believe me anti-crossbw guys, this is much ado about nothing. EVERY state that I have seen legalize crossbows in the last ten years the naysayers pretty well quieted down after the first season or two. Some of the previous most ardent anti-crossbow guys even admitted they were not affected by the inclusion of crossbows into "their season".

Much ado about nothing.......

[swoosh]

I think you're wasting your time Kelly. I quit debating the issue because it's like debating with somebody that speaks a different language.

I undertand the concept you started out with. The concept that Bow Hunting was a right of passage, something you asipried to as a kid. My first bow was a 25 pound recurve at 9 and I was hell on the Rabbits. Wanted to Deer Hunt. Saved my Lawn Mowing, Hay Hauling, Chores Money until I bought a fancy 45 pound Bear Recurve at a Garage Sale. Shot and Shot and Shot and three years later and when I could demonstrate that I was able to draw, hold and shoot accurately, I got to Deer Hunt.

This generation is not an "earn it, work hard for it" generation. The concept that you're thinking of has pretty much died and the majority won't have any idea of what you're talking about.

You go ahead and keep plugging away and trying, theres always that chance that one may actually catch on.;)

Yeah we don't work hard:rolleyes: Some of us have payed for our own education, house and everything we have, but we don't work hard because we think our fellow sportsman should have a choice.

My Grandfather could not bowhunt a few year because he did not meet the 80% asnine requirment. I guess he did not work hard either;)

WWII Vet
Married 57 years
Took care of his family, with no help from anyone;)

But he must have not wanted to work hard enough after working for years with a bad shoulder, and being there was no medical in those does, one could not take time off.

This year do to all the asbestos he sucked down he's on Oxygen. I am looking into getting him a permit so he can hunt from a Golfcart style rig. He's 80 years old and still wants to Archery Hunt, at 79 he shot a doe with his ML.

MBH and some want to keep men just like him out of the woods with their asnine regulations on hunting.

It's deer hunting for pete sakes, it's just a deer, family and fun. If some of you are so wrapped up in yourselves you cannot see that anymore I truly feel sad for you.

Hunting is a recreational activity;) It's suppose to be fun and relaxing

[TOW]

.................It's deer hunting for pete sakes, it's just a deer, family and fun. If some of you are so wrapped up in yourselves you cannot see that anymore I truly feel sad for you.

Hunting is a recreational activity;) It's suppose to be fun and relaxing


YES!!

It is not life and death.

It is a RECREATION!

[Swamp Monster]

And perhaps the largest contingent within subset #2, those between the age 40-and 45 where countless and irrefutable statistics illustrate that they leave archery hunting altogether, and never return.


So you think those that walk away at age 40-45 are going to come back to "archery" hunting if crossbows are legal? Why? Could it be because they don't have to put any effort into it "archery" once the crossbow is chosen? If the crossbow is not so much easier as many of you want to claim, why would the crossbow stop those from leaving or why would it bring them back? I guess that double standard is ok as long as you get to use a crossbow at the end of the day.

[Munsterlndr]

YES!!

It is not life and death.

It is a RECREATION!

Your mistaken, to some it's become a religion.

[Kelly Johnson]

Ok so...
10-14 can use a Xbow.
Good...kids need to get out there however they can. Agreed
Doctor provides a not says you can't or shouldn't pull a bow.
Good...you want to hunt. Have at it.

So far so good.
But than there's this...


[FONT=Verdana]And, that brings us to Group #2, those who want to use a crossbow but are excluded. You state we should allow children age 12-14 (actually, a 10-year old can hunt in the archery season). I will add other subsets: [COLOR="Red"]persons of age. And perhaps the largest contingent within subset #2, those between the age 40-and 45 where countless and irrefutable statistics illustrate that they leave archery hunting altogether, and never return.


1.Age is not a handicap. Ask AARP.
No go for me.

2. I thought xbows ARE archery?
Someone make up my mind please.

2.1. Any reason you think they'll give up archery as it stands now but will come running back, wallets open, if they're given a crossbow permit?

We were doing so well and than the shakey grasp at air...

[Swamp Monster]

Your mistaken, to some it's become a religion.

Not quite, I spend far more time in the field than I do at church! :) I get far more spiritualy from the outdoors than any serman on Sunday.

[Michihunter]

I think you're wasting your time Kelly. I quit debating the issue because it's like debating with somebody that speaks a different language.

I undertand the concept you started out with. The concept that Bow Hunting was a right of passage, something you asipried to as a kid. My first bow was a 25 pound recurve at 9 and I was hell on the Rabbits. Wanted to Deer Hunt. Saved my Lawn Mowing, Hay Hauling, Chores Money until I bought a fancy 45 pound Bear Recurve at a Garage Sale. Shot and Shot and Shot and three years later and when I could demonstrate that I was able to draw, hold and shoot accurately, I got to Deer Hunt.

This generation is not an "earn it, work hard for it" generation. The concept that you're thinking of has pretty much died and the majority won't have any idea of what you're talking about.

You go ahead and keep plugging away and trying, theres always that chance that one may actually catch on.;)

Talk about offensive comments. I too spent my childhoood working to get the things I wanted. Worked my butt off for my neighbor who was a bricklayer. Ever mix mud? Or haul bricks? I would consider that pretty tough work for a child. Guess what? Both my sons have done similar work as well. I now work hardest on the hottest and coldest days of the years servicing AC's and furnaces. I'm not sure what you do for a living but I can assure you that being on a black rubber roof on a 90 degree day is not easy let alone "working" on that same roof. My wife has Lupus and still cannot qualify for a disability permit. Although she's worked since she was 14 and still tries to do what housework she is able to, you say she may not work hard enough?

Aside from all this, what gives you the right to determine how much work is necessary to bowhunt? Do you have a microwave? Air conditioning? A car? Indoor plumbing? Electricity? Shouldn't you toss all those things out as well so you can work "harder"? Or don't those things qualify the same way a simple hunting tool would for some other people?? Not all people that will be using a crossbow are "lazy, non-working individuals". Perhaps you should get on your knees and pray for continued blessings that you are able to hunt in the way you feel is "proper".:rolleyes:

[Riva]

So everyone can't use a crossbow....;) If you can't pull back a bow you can get a permit, you still don't like that idea. :lol:

Butter, re-read the post, OK! It’s a transitional thread. You can't have “group #1” without having a “group #2.” You can’t start a paragraph with the word “first” without starting a subsequent paragraph with the word “second”. It is a common literary technique to draw the reader to the end point that one is trying to convey.

However; since you have decided to perform selective surgery on my prose, I will answer your question, specifically: "If you can't pull back a bow you can get a permit, you still don't like that idea?"

Here's my answer. My answer is YES! I like the idea very much. I like any provision that will bring more people into the archery season, particularly the disabled. That is why, if you read and fully comprehended my words, I said that Kelly and I were “in violent agreement” in this regard.

As I mentioned, I further noted (i.e. "transitioned") my comments to state that, all things considered, full inclusion is a superior option than creating unique solutions surrounding each and every subset.

Now, Butter, go back and read it again because there's going to be a quiz in the morning! :D

[butter21]

Riva,

It even goes further that "drawing a bow back".

Being an "old guy" myself I know that the song "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones" is 100% spot on.

There can be a day when a bowhunter could pull his bow back 25 or so times. The next day he can't even break it over.

If the judgement criteria is just "drawing a bow back" then what happens if that person can do it once, but cant do it enough to practice? If there is such a thing a "drawing a bow back" it should be tied in with "drawing a bow back" enough times in a certain time period (say one hour) to stay proficient.

BUT.. as you said the easiest way around the "physically challenged" criteria is to allow EVERYONE the use of a crossbow,.

Believe me anti-crossbw guys, this is much ado about nothing. EVERY state that I have seen legalize crossbows in the last ten years the naysayers pretty well quieted down after the first season or two. Some of the previous most ardent anti-crossbow guys even admitted they were not affected by the inclusion of crossbows into "their season".

Much ado about nothing.......

Yeah we don't work hard:rolleyes: Some of us have payed for our own education, house and everything we have, but we don't work hard because we think our fellow sportsman should have a choice.

My Grandfather could not bowhunt a few year because he did not meet the 80% asnine requirment. I guess he did not work hard either;)

WWII Vet
Married 57 years
Took care of his family, with no help from anyone;)

But he must have not wanted to work hard enough after working for years with a bad shoulder, and being there was no medical in those does, one could not take time off.

This year do to all the asbestos he sucked down he's on Oxygen. I am looking into getting him a permit so he can hunt from a Golfcart style rig. He's 80 years old and still wants to Archery Hunt, at 79 he shot a doe with his ML.

MBH and some want to keep men just like him out of the woods with their asnine regulations on hunting.

It's deer hunting for pete sakes, it's just a deer, family and fun. If some of you are so wrapped up in yourselves you cannot see that anymore I truly feel sad for you.

Hunting is a recreational activity;) It's suppose to be fun and relaxing
Thought that the plan called for anyone over 60 could use one....

[swoosh]

Kelly

Will use my Step dad as example

He is 58, he bowhunts once or twice a year. He practices about 20 mins a year:lol: One year the first two arrows he shot were at two bucks opening morning from my stand. Luckly we recovered them both.

You guys seem to have this belief majority bowhunters practice in this state.

Here are some facts

3d is WAAAYYY down in SE MI. We use to get 200+ shooters a shoot. Now we are lucky to break 100. Plain and simply people do not practice anymore.

I truly doubt the work it takes to shoot a bow drove these guys away. For my Dad it was the two Harley's he bought, yes no inhertience for me:mad:

Majority of xbows hunter will be guys who convert fro bow IMO. They will do so because like you said and I agree it's easier to shoot a Xbow. That does not bother me a bit;) Why it bothers some of you, I do not understand.

My new Elite GT500 shoots an arrow 316 FPS at 27.5 draw:yikes:

[Michihunter]

2. I thought xbows ARE archery?
Someone make up my mind please. Nice try Kelly;) Unfortunately, 'walking away from archery' because one of archery's tools are not allowed during season does not make your case or portray confusion. :lol:

[D-BEAVER]

Even the most hardcore anti-crossbows individuals will agree that the current hadicap percentage system is lousy. It's not hard to find someone who has "fell through the cracks" or been shunned by the system. I'm not arguing that, as it does need to be addressed.

I equate it to handicap parking permits. I fully believe there are individuals deserving of these that don't have them and a few permits have likely fallen into the wrong hands, as well. Is the answer to simply allow everyone the privillege of handicap parking?

Let eveyone have a handicap parking permit and there won't be enough places to park. Let everyone have crossbow and there won't be enough places to hunt...

[butter21]

Butter, re-read the post, OK! It’s a transitional thread. You can't have “group #1” without having a “group #2.” You can’t start a paragraph with the word “first” without starting a subsequent paragraph with the word “second”. It is a common literary technique to draw the reader to the end point that one is trying to convey.

However; since you have decided to perform selective surgery on my prose, I will answer your question, specifically: "If you can't pull back a bow you can get a permit, you still don't like that idea?"

Here's my answer. My answer is YES! I like the idea very much. I like any provision that will bring more people into the archery season, particularly the disabled. That is why, if you read and fully comprehended my words, I said that Kelly and I were “in violent agreement” in this regard.

As I mentioned, I further noted (i.e. "transitioned") my comments to state that, all things considered, full inclusion is a superior option than creating unique solutions surrounding each and every subset.

Now, Butter, go back and read it again because there's going to be a quiz in the morning! :D

Ok ill re-word it.... You like the idea, but still want full inclusion...:dizzy:

[swoosh]

Thought that the plan called for anyone over 60 could use one....

You thought wrong 15 years ago;)

15 years ago it was 80% and 5 years later I was there when the guy came out to "test" his shoulder:rant:

MBH did no justice to a WWII vet IMO

What entitled them to keep him out of the woods?

[Swamp Monster]

3d is WAAAYYY down in SE MI. We use to get 200+ shooters a shoot. Now we are lucky to break 100. Plain and simply people do not practice anymore.

:

While I agree that many don't practice enough etc, etc, I'm not sure I would equate less attendance at 3d shoots to equal less practice by Michigan bow hunters. There's to many other factors at play to come to such a conclusion. Gas prices, job losses, people moving out of this state etc, etc. many of those folks might just be practicing closer to home in the yard or a buddies yard etc. I know I'm not going to drive 40-60 miles and pay $8 to shoot very often when I can shoot in my own yard or 2 miles away with friends at one of their places for free. 3d shoots are a luxury that many are giving up.....I look at it as part of my hunting budget and it doesn't stretch nearly as far anymore so thats one thing that gets cut. I'm sure many others have done the same.

[butter21]

You thought wrong 15 years ago;)

15 years ago it was 80% and 5 years later I was there when the guy came out to "test" his shoulder:rant:

MBH did no justice to a WWII vet IMO

What entitled them to keep him out of the woods?
Ok his plan also said that if you couldnt pull back a bow you could get a permit....:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

[Michihunter]

Ok his plan also said that if you couldnt pull back a bow you could get a permit....:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:
His plan isn't up for a vote. That ship sailed and all the talk about "what if" is pointless at this time.

[sbooy42]

Not quite, I spend far more time in the field than I do at church! :) I get far more spiritualy from the outdoors than any serman on Sunday.
Off Topic sorry
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd186/sbooy42/thetruth.jpg

[swoosh]

While I agree that many don't practice enough etc, etc, I'm not sure I would equate less attendance at 3d shoots to equal less practice by Michigan bow hunters. There's to many other factors at play to come to such a conclusion. Gas prices, job losses, people moving out of this state etc, etc. many of those folks might just be practicing closer to home in the yard or a buddies yard etc. I know I'm not going to drive 40-60 miles and pay $8 to shoot very often when I can shoot in my own yard or 2 miles away with friends at one of their places for free. 3d shoots are a luxury that many are giving up.....I look at it as part of my hunting budget and it doesn't stretch nearly as far anymore so thats one thing that gets cut. I'm sure many others have done the same.

This has been a trend long before what is happing in MI.

BTW the clubs best years was in the early 80's when MI had 16% unemployment:dizzy:

Swamp I don't know what goes on in your neck of the woods, but caliber of archery hunter around me is intersting:lol: Lets just say I would not walk around bare foot in my area;) There is a lot of orphan arrows out there:chillin:

[Danatodd99]

I lived in Ma. when the compounds were seeking entrance into the "Archery" season. The traditional hunters said "No way, it makes it too easy".
Guess who won out ?
It was then about the argument over blackpowder season, when percussion were introduced, they wanted traditional only (Flintlock), guess who won ?
Then it was smoothbore v. rifled in blackpowder, guess who won?
then it was shotguns .... same argument Smoothbore v rifled. Guess who won.

Guy, come on, Crossbows have been around longer than rifles and surely around longer than compounds have.
who cares what people use during archery season as long as it has limbs and shoots an arrow.

It is certainly about enjoyin time in the woods. We shouldn't be excluding anyone from any season. We should be encouraging them into anything we can to do with our sport, because if they are a part of it, they won't be against it.

\Soapbox

[Kelly Johnson]

Kelly

Will use my Step dad as example

He is 58, he bowhunts once or twice a year. He practices about 20 mins a year:lol: One year the first two arrows he shot were at two bucks opening morning from my stand. Luckly we recovered them both.

You guys seem to have this belief majority bowhunters practice in this state.

Here are some facts

3d is WAAAYYY down in SE MI. We use to get 200+ shooters a shoot. Now we are lucky to break 100. Plain and simply people do not practice anymore.

I truly doubt the work it takes to shoot a bow drove these guys away. For my Dad it was the two Harley's he bought, yes no inhertience for me:mad:

Majority of xbows hunter will be guys who convert fro bow IMO. They will do so because like you said and I agree it's easier to shoot a Xbow. That does not bother me a bit;) Why it bothers some of you, I do not understand.

My new Elite GT500 shoots an arrow 316 FPS at 27.5 draw:yikes:

Illustrates my point rather well.

Riva's implied contention was that X bows would somehow lure those that have stopped bowhuting back into it.

The majority of X bow hunter that convert from a bow can do that now...starting Nov 15th.

[swoosh]

Illustrates my point rather well.

Riva's implied contention was that X bows would somehow lure those that have stopped bowhuting back into it.

The majority of X bow hunter that convert from a bow can do that now...starting Nov 15th.

:lol: OK

They should have done that to compound guys years ago

[Riva]

Even the most hardcore anti-crossbows individuals will agree that the current hadicap percentage system is lousy. It's not hard to find someone who has "fell through the cracks" or been shunned by the system. I'm not arguing that, as it does need to be addressed.

I equate it to handicap parking permits. I fully believe there are individuals deserving of these that don't have them and a few permits have likely fallen into the wrong hands, as well. Is the answer to simply allow everyone the privillege of handicap parking?

Let eveyone have a handicap parking permit and there won't be enough places to park. Let everyone have crossbow and there won't be enough places to hunt...

The statement in your first paragraph is categorically false. One of the preeminent and politically influential pro-archery organizations in this state is adamantly against any sort of crossbow expansion. Please read the following:

The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage

MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.

We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

To your statement: "Let everyone have a handicap parking permit and there won't be enough places to park. Let everyone have crossbow and there won't be enough places to hunt".

Well, if you really believed that, which I don't think you really do, then that's just plain silly. The real motivation behind a statement like that can be condensed into a single sentence: "The most deer in the woods, along with the fewest hunters in the woods, the better for me." :dizzy:

[butter21]

The statement in your first paragraph is categorically false. One of the preeminent and politically influential pro-archery organizations in this state is adamantly against any sort of crossbow expansion. Please read the following:
The Michigan Bow Hunters Association Position Statement regarding proposed crossbow regulation changes and laser sight usage

MBH supports the current standard for determining crossbow permit eligibility for physically challenged hunters. However we are opposed to lowering the level of permanent disability from 80% to 60%. Our Association acknowledges that the current evaluation process for crossbow permit applicants is expensive and frequently abused.

We therefore support removal of the physician from the evaluation process as a means of addressing both issues. Also, we would be very supportive of a more vigorous scrutiny of crossbow permit applications by the DNR Law division to further address the abuse issue. In addition, there are other issues with the crossbow permit system not mentioned in the proposal. We look forward to working with the NRC to resolve these concerns.

To your statement: "Let everyone have a handicap parking permit and there won't be enough places to park. Let everyone have crossbow and there won't be enough places to hunt".

Well, if you really believed that, which I don't think you really do, then that's just plain silly. The real motivation behind a statement like that can be condensed into a single sentence: "The most deer in the woods, along with the fewest hunters in the woods, the better for me." :dizzy:



The more hunters in the woods the less deer in the woods, the shorter the deer season.

[Michihunter]

The more hunters in the woods the less deer in the woods, the shorter the deer season.
Funny thing about that comment is that the deer herd was at an alltime high at the same time hunter numbers were at an alltime high. Ironic don't ya think?

[butter21]

Funny thing about that comment is that the deer herd was at an alltime high at the same time hunter numbers were at an alltime high. Ironic don't ya think?
Now look at the northern lower....

[swoosh]

Now look at the northern lower....

He is,LOL

Early 90's

[butter21]

He is,LOL

Early 90's
Some where along the line it got wiped out....I don't know what year it was but...:(

[goemado]

This has been a trend long before what is happing in MI.

BTW the clubs best years was in the early 80's when MI had 16% unemployment:dizzy:

Swamp I don't know what goes on in your neck of the woods, but caliber of archery hunter around me is intersting:lol: Lets just say I would not walk around bare foot in my area;) There is a lot of orphan arrows out there:chillin:

So the answer to an archer's inability/unwillingness to practice is not to prevent them from hunting deer because they lack the necessary skill of making a clean shot, but to change the current laws to give them an option that's easier to use and requires less practice to use effectively? By that logic, why not just allow weapon of choice (rock to rifle -- hunter's choice) during the entire hunting season (October - December)? Likely draw even more people to the sport. Down the slippery slope we go.

And yes, it is absolutely easier to shoot a crossbow than a "vertical" bow (compound or traditional). No motion of drawing back. No worries about anchor points. No problem having to hold at "full draw" while the deer takes its time moving into a shooting lane. No need for follow through on a shot. Just point and shoot.

I promise you that most everyone that can afford it, will be carrying a crossbow into the woods the first day it's legal to do so. Archery season is about to become a shorter ranged extension of gun season.

But, as long as more people can participate (even those unwilling to put in the time to develop the skills previously required), it's a good thing. Mission accomplished.

[GVDocHoliday]

I personally would consider that a "good" thing. Wouldn't you?

I wouldn't. Problem with society today is...Kids feel they are 'entitled' to everything ASAP. Parents are failing to teach there kids that rewards actually come with hard work and dedication. So let's allow a weapon in the archery season that actually requires no hard work or dedication and continue fueling the "I want it now" attitudes of todays youth.

Great job fueling the liberal fire that will one day burn this country to the ground.

[Munsterlndr]

The more hunters in the woods the less deer in the woods, the shorter the deer season.

There are less deer in the woods in then there were 10 years ago, have you heard anyone suggesting shortening any season? You are aware that less deer is the goal that has been set by the DNR, right? That the current NLP population is still higher than the low end of the target range that the DNR set in their 2005 population goals?

We have 1.84 million deer in Michigan and the herd is increasing in size. The idea that seasons are gong to be curtailed because too many deer getting harvested is laughable. That's like a 450 lb. guy refusing to go on a diet because he's worried about losing too much weight.

Part of the problem is that due to gross overpopulation in some areas, many hunters have gotten used to seeing 15-20 deer every time they go out. In most cases, if you are seeing that many deer, the population is too high and probably needs to be reduced.

[butter21]

So the answer to an archer's inability/unwillingness to practice is not to prevent them from hunting deer because they lack the necessary skill of making a clean shot, but to change the current laws to give them an option that's easier to use and requires less practice to use effectively? By that logic, why not just allow weapon of choice (rock to rifle -- hunter's choice) during the entire hunting season (October - December)? Likely draw even more people to the sport. Down the slippery slope we go.

And yes, it is absolutely easier to shoot a crossbow than a "vertical" bow (compound or traditional). No motion of drawing back. No worries about anchor points. No problem having to hold at "full draw" while the deer takes its time moving into a shooting lane. No need for follow through on a shot. Just point and shoot.

I promise you that most everyone that can afford it, will be carrying a crossbow into the woods the first day it's legal to do so. Archery season is about to become a shorter ranged extension of gun season.

But, as long as more people can participate (even those unwilling to put in the time to develop the skills previously required), it's a good thing. Mission accomplished.

There are less deer in the woods in then there were 10 years ago, have you heard anyone suggesting shortening any season? You are aware that less deer is the goal that has been set by the DNR, right? That the current NLP population is still higher than the low end of the target range that the DNR set in their 2005 population goals?

We have 1.84 million deer in Michigan and the herd is increasing in size. The idea that seasons are gong to be curtailed because too many deer get harvested is laughable.

Part of the problem is that due to gross overpopulation in some areas, many hunters have gotten used to seeing 15-20 deer every time they go out. In most cases, if you are seeing that many deer, the population is too high and probably needs to be reduced.
How are you sure that there wont be so many deer taken that we have to shorten the length of the season?

I would love to see 15-20 deer every time i go out, ill switch you hunting spots.

[Michihunter]

I wouldn't. Problem with society today is...Kids feel they are 'entitled' to everything ASAP. Parents are failing to teach there kids that rewards actually come with hard work and dedication. So let's allow a weapon in the archery season that actually requires no hard work or dedication and continue fueling the "I want it now" attitudes of todays youth.

Great job fueling the liberal fire that will one day burn this country to the ground.
We differ here on a few things Bryan. Number one, hunting doesn't necessarily have to be hard to be rewarding. Number two, crossbow "shooting" maybe simpler, but the child still has to work on steadying the bow and practicing to become efficient, not to mention the techniques used in the "hunt" itself. And finally, that somehow our children are supposed to have it tougher than us. Do you have it tougher than your parents did? As parents, we do what we can to make our children's lives better. That doesn't necessarily mean that crossbow hunting is going to change the morals and principles of hard work that we are responsible in teaching our children. Only that they have an option that we can choose to guide them with, that we as adults didn't have during our own childhood.

[Riva]

Illustrates my point rather well.

Riva's implied contention was that X bows would somehow lure those that have stopped bowhuting back into it.

The majority of X bow hunter that convert from a bow can do that now...starting Nov 15th.

No, Kelly No! (Has a ring to it don’t ya think? Sort of like Chuck Berry):)


Riva's hasn't implied anything. Riva is using hard facts! (Such a novel concept)

Crossbows will indeed pull some percentage of people back into archery sports, but not all of them by any measure. Once gone, always gone is the rule for some. To the degree that a crossbow can pull back just one former hunter, that's a good thing!

However; that was not my point. My point was/is that there is irrefutable data that shows a definitive and predictable drop off in archery sport participation commencing at age 40-45. There are a lot of reasons why this drop off occurs. Those reasons don't really matter as much as the fact that the profound exodus indeed occurs. It's there, it’s real and it’s predictable!

Now, in those states that allow full inclusion, you do not see this same profound drop-off that you see in states that do not have full inclusion.
What you do see is archery hunters retained in the sport through their 40's and even their 50's and beyond. There is only one factor which you can attribute to this behavioral trend: and it aint home cooking! It's the crossbow!

To the thinking person, one must ask the question, when you know, without a shadow of a doubt, that a large percentage of your archery universe is going to go away and never come back, why wouldn't you proactively inject a component into the equation that will stunt their exodus and retain them in the sport? Why? Why? Why? It just doesn't make sense to me unless of course, using a crossbow is the sole reason you won’t allow it to happen. If it is then, excuse me, but that's just nuts!

Many people confuse the effort to allow persons of age the opportunity to use a crossbow with hunter “retention”. It's an entirely defferent matter altogether. Hunter retention is "keeping them while you got them" and not, "getting them back after they've left".

If the crossbow is the catalyst that keeps a person in archery sports for an entire lifetime, it seems so arbitrary and selfish that we would not make that option available to your fellow hunter. Hell, (to be silly) even if a banjo was the catalyst that kept a person in archer sports fro their entire lifetime, why would you new make that option available to your fellow hunter?

Is any of this starting to sink in yet?

[GVDocHoliday]

We differ here on a few things Bryan. Number one, hunting doesn't necessarily have to be hard to be rewarding. Number two, crossbow "shooting" maybe simpler, but the child still has to work on steadying the bow and practicing to become efficient, not to mention the techniques used in the "hunt" itself. And finally, that somehow our children are supposed to have it tougher than us. Do you have it tougher than your parents did? As parents, we do what we can to make our children's lives better. That doesn't necessarily mean that crossbow hunting is going to change the morals and principles of hard work that we are responsible in teaching our children. Only that they have an option that we can choose to guide them with, that we as adults didn't have during our own childhood.


I didn't have it tougher...I had it just as tough...and that was by design. I will instill those same principles to my kids as well...nothing will be handed to them.

Learning how to hold a stock against their shoulder, holding steady, and aiming is something that'll come from practicing for firearm season;).

[Munsterlndr]

How are you sure that there wont be so many deer taken that we have to shorten the length of the season?

I would love to see 15-20 deer every time i go out, ill switch you hunting spots.

Because the DNR is doing just about everything they can do to encourage the harvest of more deer and despite their best efforts, they are failing miserably in keeping the herd from growing. Our current annual harvest level is below what is needed simply to maintain it's level, let alone decrease it. In order to accomplish the target population goals established in 2005, there would have to be a 25-30% reduction in the size of the herd. That is roughly 500,000 deer meaning that our current annual harvest could be doubled and we would still only be getting on target with where the DNR wants the population to be. In order to harvest an additional 500,000 deer you would need to triple the total number of hunters who currently hunt in Michigan. Totally laughable.

Even if crossbows proved wildly popular and added another 100,000 hunters to the woods, the harvest would not even increase by 10%. Given Michigan's deer overpopulation problem, your fears of too many deer being harvested are just simply ridiculous. Like I said, it's like a 450 lb. guy refusing to go on a diet because he says he's worried about losing too much weight. :rolleyes:

[Joe Archer]

[COLOR=black]
However; that was not my point. My point was/is that there is irrefutable data that shows a definitive and predictable drop off in archery sport participation commencing at age 40-45.
Super Freak, super frealk .... super freaky! (Rick James :D)
Although some of us are just super freaks and plan to bow hunt well into our 60's. Most of us here agree that allowing the crossbow to the older hunter is an excellent idea. Is it starting to sink in yet? We really are not members of MBH and happen to disagree with their stance.
<----<<<

[Michihunter]

I didn't have it tougher...I had it just as tough...and that was by design. I will instill those same principles to my kids as well...nothing will be handed to them.

Learning how to hold a stock against their shoulder, holding steady, and aiming is something that'll come from practicing for firearm season;).Once again your comparing instilled values with an archery tool. As a parent, it is YOUR responsibility to offer the choices and hope that your value lessons were instilled correctly. I'm not sure how you can equate lessons in hardwork with an archery option that is merely one of several options available.

[Joe Archer]

In order to harvest an additional 500,000 deer you would need to triple the total number of hunters who currently hunt in Michigan. Totally laughable.

It is totally laughable to think that crossbows are the answer! Until guys like "some of us on this thread :rolleyes:" let an additional 30 to 40 hunters on their land to take out the excess 100 deer or so, we will always have over population on private land.
Public land is already easy to regulate without the crossbow.
<----<<<

[GVDocHoliday]

Because the DNR is doing just about everything they can do to encourage the harvest of more deer and despite their best efforts, they are failing miserably in keeping the herd from growing. Our current annual harvest level is below what is needed simply to maintain it's level, let alone decrease it. In order to accomplish the target population goals established in 2005, there would have to be a 25-30% reduction in the size of the herd. That is roughly 500,000 deer meaning that our current annual harvest could be doubled and we would still only be getting on target with where the DNR wants the population to be. In order to harvest an additional 500,000 deer you would need to triple the total number of hunters who currently hunt in Michigan. Totally laughable.

Even if crossbows proved wildly popular and added another 100,000 hunters to the woods, the harvest would not even increase by 10%. Given Michigan's deer overpopulation problem, your fears of too many deer being harvested are just simply ridiculous. Like I said, it's like a 450 lb. guy refusing to go on a diet because he says he's worried about losing too much weight. :rolleyes:

Numbers don't like, neither do stats...you're right on right on.

However, the real problem with that are the facts that private landowners ins southern MI simply are pulling their weight. Until MI starts offering property tax incentives for checking in does at check stations this will probably not change.

[swoosh]

I wouldn't. Problem with society today is...Kids feel they are 'entitled' to everything ASAP. Parents are failing to teach there kids that rewards actually come with hard work and dedication. So let's allow a weapon in the archery season that actually requires no hard work or dedication and continue fueling the "I want it now" attitudes of todays youth.

Great job fueling the liberal fire that will one day burn this country to the ground.

We argree on a lot, but this one is out there.

Shooting a cross bow is going to aid in the destruction of america:16suspect
I wonder how many people said it was the easy way with a compounds;)

[swoosh]

It is totally laughable to think that crossbows are the answer! Until guys like "some of us on this thread :rolleyes:" let an additional 30 to 40 hunters on their land to take out the excess 100 deer or so, we will always have over population on private land.
Public land is already easy to regulate without the crossbow.
<----<<<

He did not say it was the answer, he pointed out the myth that to many deer will be killed;)

[GVDocHoliday]

I'm not sure how you can equate lessons in hardwork with an archery option that is merely one of several options available.

It's apples to apples...so I can equate them very easily.

[Joe Archer]

He did not say it was the answer, he pointed out the myth that to many deer will be killed;)
Ok then. Lets agree to not propogate the myth that the crossbow will help with deer management in over populated areas. I guess we ALL agree that this is laughable. However, we can't dispell the fact that there is reason for legitimate concern about the effects crossbows will have on public land.
Dang! Talk about your fringe minority groups. I am a bow hunter AND I hunt public land!
<----<<<

[GVDocHoliday]

We argree on a lot, but this one is out there.

Shooting a cross bow is going to aid in the destruction of america:16suspect
I wonder how many people said it was the easy way with a compounds;)

Not crossbows...I was making a blanket statement about making everything easier to fuel a mindset in todays youth.
The great outdoors and hunting happen to be the kind of activity where most kids spend a lot of time with their fathers or grandfathers, where they teach us all they know about the outdoors and where they usually give us many words of wisdom from their many years of experience. For some reason most youth are most receptive to taking in that information during this time so it really sticks with them as good life lessons. All I'm saying is that if they fail at something, it's not good teachings if you change up the game so that they succeed. It's like passing on the message that if you fail at something hard, it's ok to quite...lets get the same result without having to put in any effort.

After shooting my recurves all winter/spring/summer, I'm seeing that the hardest thing with a compound is getting the bow to draw, and having to hold it at that draw to aim, and squeeze off a shot.

The one thing that compounds make easy is hitting targets at long distances. My amount of practice with both a compound or a recurve is the same.

With my recurves, it's just a pull and release in once smooth quick motion...took a little while to get proficient but I should have no problem out to 25 yards this fall with my stick and string...mainly because my average kill distance is only 12 yards.

[Michihunter]

It's apples to apples...so I can equate them very easily.
Your kids, your rules. You have several options including traditional bows which are arguably the hardest of the three that would be available. If by chance you were to introduce them to a crossbow, you feel that it would undermine the values of hardwork you instilled into them prior to that? Please explain how that would be the crossbows fault and not the parent's.

[Munsterlndr]

It is totally laughable to think that crossbows are the answer! Until guys like "some of us on this thread :rolleyes:" let an additional 30 to 40 hunters on their land to take out the excess 100 deer or so, we will always have over population on private land.
Public land is already easy to regulate without the crossbow.
<----<<<

Where did I say they are the answer? You guys are the ones who are saying that crossbow introduction will result in too many deer being killed thus causing the archery season to be shortened. I'm saying that the chances of that happening are so slim as to be laughable. Will crossbows result in more deer being killed? Sure, some but nearly enough to even tip the scale to a declining instead of an increasing herd.

There are management changes that could be made which would have a substantive impact on the overpopulation problem but they have nothing to do with the crossbow issue.

So to Joe, Terry, Butter and you other anti's who keep chanting the "season will be shortened, herd wiped out" mantra, how about providing a shred of evidence supporting that theory or even a plausible scenario that holds up to any kind of scrutiny about how the introduction of crossbows could result in enough deer being killed to where shortening the archery season would be on the table? Otherwise, how about we banish that silly objection away in the cabinet of myths & fables.

[swoosh]

Ok then. Lets agree to not propogate the myth that the crossbow will help with deer management in over populated areas. I guess we ALL agree that this is laughable. However, we can't dispell the fact that there is reason for legitimate concern about the effects crossbows will have on public land.
Dang! Talk about your fringe minority groups. I am a bow hunter AND I hunt public land!
<----<<<

So it is all about you and what YOUR entitled to than I guess;)

[D-BEAVER]

There are less deer in the woods in then there were 10 years ago, have you heard anyone suggesting shortening any season? You are aware that less deer is the goal that has been set by the DNR, right? That the current NLP population is still higher than the low end of the target range that the DNR set in their 2005 population goals?

We have 1.84 million deer in Michigan and the herd is increasing in size. The idea that seasons are gong to be curtailed because too many deer getting harvested is laughable. That's like a 450 lb. guy refusing to go on a diet because he's worried about losing too much weight.

Part of the problem is that due to gross overpopulation in some areas, many hunters have gotten used to seeing 15-20 deer every time they go out. In most cases, if you are seeing that many deer, the population is too high and probably needs to be reduced.

Umm, I did. If you go back and re-read my post in the now closed thread, you'll see that I did indeed suggest a shorter and/or later firearm season. I also suggested mandatory check stations, amongst other things.

You can talk all you want about the herd increasing in size, but it's just not true for everyone. While the deer populaion may be booming in your neck of the woods, numbers are dismal in northern Michigan, so don't be so quick to assume.

I would welcome x-bows with open arms if we addressed our more important issues first... but I don't see that happening any time soon...

[D-BEAVER]

So it is all about you and what YOUR entitled to than I guess;)

He has that right since you believe it's all about you and what YOU"RE entitled to...

[swoosh]

He has that right since you believe it's all about you and what YOU"RE entitled to...

I don't want to use an xbow;) Check my motive on the motive thread:)

[Joe Archer]

So it is all about you and what YOUR entitled to than I guess;)
Not just about me. I would include other minorities members such as myself; other bow hunters and public land hunters. Fighting from a minority standpoint can be very difficult. Even when to most it appears to be a lost cause, there is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. Just ask Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King Jr.
<----<<<

[swoosh]

Not just about me. I would include other minorities members such as myself; other bow hunters and public land hunters. Fighting from a minority standpoint can be very difficult. Even when to most it appears to be a lost cause, there is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. Just ask Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King Jr.
<----<<<

So now it's a civil right's issue:lol: I believe they were fighting for choice also;)

I plan on hunting Public land in Oh, Ky and MI majority of my time this year;)

[Munsterlndr]

Umm, I did. If you go back and re-read my post in the now closed thread, you'll see that I did indeed suggest a shorter and/or later firearm season. I also suggested mandatory check stations, amongst other things.

You can talk all you want about the herd increasing in size, but it's just not true for everyone. While the deer populaion may be booming in your neck of the woods, numbers are dismal in northern Michigan, so don't be so quick to assume.

I would welcome x-bows with open arms if we addressed our more important issues first... but I don't see that happening any time soon...

If you are seriously suggesting that shortening the firearms season will have a positive impact on dealing with the overpopulation crisis among Michigan's herd, then you need to do some more research on deer management. Moving the season back is another story but the primary impact of that has to do with increasing buck age structure, not decreasing population.

Whether you accept it or not, the deer population in Michigan is increasing. It is also becoming redistributed. Anecdotal sightings specific to individual properties are really not very valuable when looking at the macro implications of deer populations. Btw, I own hunting property or hunt in three different NLP DMU's and deer populations are stable or increasing in all three of them. Far from dismal, I'd say that in most areas of the NLP the population is "appropriate". But then again, it depends on whether you are viewing population from the standpoint of what is best for the herd and for society in general or what is good for hunters. ;)

[Joe Archer]

So now it's a civil right's issue:lol:
As soon as we turn this into a discrinination issue we can be assured to stall the stall bill for a decade or so in our court system! :lol::lol:
Just kidding, of course..
<----<<<

[Joe Archer]

I own hunting property or hunt in three different NLP DMU's and deer populations are stable or increasing in all three of them.
Now there's a surprise! :rolleyes:
You should have stopped at "hello"
<----<<<

[butter21]

If you are seriously suggesting that shortening the firearms season will have a positive impact on dealing with the overpopulation crisis among Michigan's herd, then you need to do some more research on deer management. Moving the season back is another story but the primary impact of that has to do with increasing buck age structure, not decreasing population.

Whether you accept it or not, the deer population in Michigan is increasing. It is also becoming redistributed. Anecdotal sightings specific to individual properties are really not very valuable when looking at the macro implications of deer populations. Btw, I own hunting property or hunt in three different NLP DMU's and deer populations are stable or increasing in all three of them. Far from dismal, I'd say that in most areas of the NLP the population is "appropriate". But then again, it depends on whether you are viewing population from the standpoint of what is best for the herd and for society in general or what is good for hunters. ;)
They are getting better because many of them have had no DOE tags available for the last couple of years.

[Swamp Ghost]

Some of the justification of poor hunting practices, unethical behavior and lack of practice is atrocious.

Allow me to be quite frank, I have a very low opinion of roughly half of MI hunters. I have worked in big box sporting good stores and in an archery shop. I have witnessed some appalling shooting ability with all sorts of weaponry at the range, shoots and in the field. I have heard some of the most awful reports of unethical behavior from these "people that hunt"

Half of these "people that hunt" have absolutely no business being in the field, they could care less if they gut shoot every deer they "shoot at". They have no respect for hunting or the animal they are hunting regardless of season.

We are some what jaded to think that the people who participate on M-S.com are a direct cross section of MI's general hunting population. That could not be further from the truth, the overwhelming majority of M-S.com members are far more ethical and possess a deep reverence for hunting and the outdoors than "people that hunt".

Now some folks want to make it easier, yes I said easier, for the lowest common denominator to participate.

Are there people that aren't going to practice regardless of weapon? Yes. There are folks that don't even bother to take a shot with any weapon before they hit the woods. But I would have to say that this is much more prevalent in firearm season due to the sheer number of "participants" and "ease of use" perception. Are we to legalize deer hunting after dark to get more particpation? As most folks would be off of work (less people falling through the cracks) and the "people that hunt" would no doubt be shooting at an even more stationary target (less chance for wounding).

Is there a law saying you have to practice or be proficient? Nope. But I am also a staunch supporter of proficiency tests (every 3-5 years) before you can get a license.

That is the beauty of the bow. The "vertical" bow acts like a sort of proficiency "filter". In order to experience any degree of success you have to shoot fairly well. The inability to shoot a decent group beyond a certain distance and a respect for the animal they are hunting cause most "hunters" to limit their range until they improve.

The bow itself forces bowhunters to get better, if they don't want to improve they quit. Most "people that hunt" will not continue to hunt year after year with no success. (I'd estimate that the majority of the 80,000 bowhunters lost were in fact "people that hunt")

Full inclusion removes the filter. Some think it's good, as evidenced by this crossbow forum, I think it's a horrible compromise. What you get out of bowhunting is what you put into it.

Just because someone is not motivated enough to shoot a bow doesn't entitle them to use a currently restricted weapon. Follow the rules or wait until Nov. 15th.

Feel free to call me a selfish elitist, as you all know I am more than fine with that compliment.

[swoosh]

Some of the justification of poor hunting practices, unethical behavior and lack of practice is atrocious.

Allow me to be quite frank, I have a very low opinion of roughly half of MI hunters. I have worked in big box sporting good stores and in an archery shop. I have witnessed some appalling shooting ability with all sorts of weaponry at the range, shoots and in the field. I have heard some of the most awful reports of unethical behavior from these "people that hunt"

Half of these "people that hunt" have absolutely no business being in the field, they could care less if they gut shoot every deer they "shoot at". They have no respect for hunting or the animal they are hunting regardless of season.

We are some what jaded to think that the people who participate on M-S.com are a direct cross section of MI's general hunting population. That could not be further from the truth, the overwhelming majority of M-S.com members are far more ethical and possess a deep reverence for hunting and the outdoors than "people that hunt".

Now some folks want to make it easier, yes I said easier, for the lowest common denominator to participate.

Are there people that aren't going to practice regardless of weapon? Yes. There are folks that don't even bother to take a shot with any weapon before they hit the woods. But I would have to say that this is much more prevalent in firearm season due to the sheer number of "participants" and "ease of use" perception. Are we to legalize deer hunting after dark to get more particpation? As most folks would be off of work (less people falling through the cracks) and the "people that hunt" would no doubt be shooting at an even more stationary target (less chance for wounding).

Is there a law saying you have to practice or be proficient? Nope. But I am also a staunch supporter of proficiency tests (every 3-5 years) before you can get a license.

That is the beauty of the bow. The "vertical" bow acts like a sort of proficiency "filter". In order to experience any degree of success you have to shoot fairly well. The inability to shoot a decent group beyond a certain distance and a respect for the animal they are hunting cause most "hunters" to limit their range until they improve.

The bow itself forces bowhunters to get better, if they don't want to improve they quit. Most "people that hunt" will not continue to hunt year after year with no success. (I'd estimate that the majority of the 80,000 bowhunters lost were in fact "people that hunt")

Full inclusion removes the filter. Some think it's good, as evidenced by this crossbow forum, I think it's a horrible compromise. What you get out of bowhunting is what you put into it.

Just because someone is not motivated enough to shoot a bow doesn't entitle them to use a currently restricted weapon. Follow the rules or wait until Nov. 15th.

Feel free to call me a selfish elitist, as you all know I am more than fine with that compliment.


With the first part I could not agree more, I am at 60% and I worked in the Biggest box store in MI:lol:

[Swamp Ghost]

With the first part I could not agree more, I am at 60% and I worked in the Biggest box store in MI:lol:

60% LOL!

I was being optimistically generous......:D

[boehr]

Swamp, I would agree with you that way too many hunters have no respect for hunting or the animal they are hunting regardless of season. I would also agree that to think that the people who participate on M-S.com are not a direct cross section of MI's general hunting population and a majority of M-S.com members are far more ethical and possess a deep reverence for hunting and the outdoors than "people that hunt".

I do not agree with you that making a crossbow legal to use for hunting is lowering it to the lowest common denominator to participate. I believe allowing the use of a crossbow is simply providing another choice or a weapon to use in order to be able to participate in a recreational activity. Easier, yes in some ways, Harder, again, yes in some ways.

One thing I believe to be true for sure though and you have basically stated the same thing. The weapon one chooses definitely does not define if a person has or has no respect for any animal that one hunts. So use of a crossbow does not indicate any lack of respect, that comes from the person, not the weapon of choice.

[Riva]

I won't quote your post because it’s too big.

First, I think amongst all your voluminous posts, this is the most sincere and forthright. Well written.

I don't like slob hunters any more than you do, However, to dig a moat around the entire castle so as to keep "all" the people out, the good as well as the bad, because of the "anticipated" behavior of a the bad, is flawed thinking.

It's like in the Bible that states: "ye hath the poor with ye always". Well, sorry to say, you're always going to have slob hunters, the poachers, the trespassers, the rule breakers, etc. "with ye always". Its not a hunting thing; its a societal thing.

I have resigned myself to the fact that there is always going to be greater and lesser people than myself. While they are human beings in the eyes of the Creator, they are, by society's standards, "lesser people." That stated; you can't keep the good people out because of your anticipated fear of what the bad people will do.

You know, one of the arguments posed by some on your side is that crossbows are too deadly, too accurate. If that were the case, there would be absolutely no deer in Ohio. That said, nobody here is advocating that one should not practice to a sufficient degree that you become proficient. For some, that takes a lot of practice while for others, very little time. If we are in agreement on one issue, it's a distain for the guy who doesn't practice at all or, to the degree that they should in order to become proficient. That concept transcends all weapons, not just crossbows.

[swoosh]

Riva

The one thing I laugh about is the too accurate part, ever listen to the woods Nov 15th:lol:

Like Boeher said it's the hunter behind the weapon;)

All things being equal with me a Xbow is more accurate, but in my case a bow is more effective weapon the way I hunt:)

[Swamp Ghost]

Riva

The one thing I laugh about is the too accurate part, ever listen to the woods Nov 15th:lol:


Thanks for making my point.....;)

Perception is reality.

[swoosh]

You know swamp we agree on 99% of the topics:lol: Just one we differ, and that's ok.

Once the decsions have been made I am going to accept it and move on:)

[back_water_buck]

I think wildlife managers are in a constant struggle when dealing with advancing technologies. What to allow, what not to. Consider an extreme example - remote internet hunts. All the "hunter" has to do is sit behind a computer and view a live scene through a camera, remotely control a weapon set up on a stand, and "fire" when ready. Thankfully, these were immediately made illegal.

And before anyone says anything - I know that was an extreme example. But, I think it illustrates the point that a line has to be drawn. Today, it's the crossbow, what will it be tomorrow? At what point does a weapon exceed the fair chase ethics that define our seasons and most hunters follow?

I don't think the use of the crossbow is in the intent or spirit of the archery season. Yea, I know, who am I to define the "spirit of the archery season".....etc..........Just my opinion.

[Swamp Ghost]

I never said that the use of a crossbow constitutes a lack of respect, neither does the use of a gun.

It's the mindset that comes along with them.

Why do you think we have so much "participation" by "people that hunt" in firearms season?

Here is what I think, "people that hunt" believe they can cut even more corners because they are using a more "capable" weapon and love the idea of full inclusion.

[Munsterlndr]

I don't think the use of the crossbow is in the intent or spirit of the archery season. Yea, I know, who am I to define the "spirit of the archery season".....etc..........Just my opinion.

Just out of curiosity, where exactly in our hunting regulations does it mention the words or the concept of "fair chase" or intent or spirit? Fair chase implies employing a method that gives the hunter an undue advantage over the quarry. Compound bows and crossbows have virtually identical harvest rates when employed within the same season, where then is the evidence that shows that a crossbow provides an undue advantage over the quarry? If that was the case, crossbow harvest rates would be higher than vertical bow rates. For that matter, according to data from Georgia, compound bow users had a substantially higher harvest success rate when compared to long bow users. Does that imply that compounds should be viewed as "non-fair chase" weapon?

Sorry, in my opinion, the term "fair chase" gets applied inaccurately by a lot of bow hunters, when they are attempting to demonize a particular weapon, in the absence of any supporting data.

High fence hunting can accurately be termed non-fair chase, because unlike unfenced hunting, the animal does not always have the opportunity to escape.

Crossbows, when used during any of the existing hunting seasons meet any reasonable definition of a fair chase weapon.

[boehr]

I never said that the use of a crossbow constitutes a lack of respect, neither does the use of a gun.

It's the mindset that comes along with them.

Why do you think we have so much "participation" by "people that hunt" in firearms season?

Here is what I think, "people that hunt" believe they can cut even more corners because they are using a more "capable" weapon and love the idea of full inclusion.If you were not making that point then why that statement in a thread discussing crossbows???:confused:

[outfishin_]

This thread is pathetic!!!!!! The B_LL Sh_Ts gotta stop. "What entitles you" can apply to everything we do.... From how we fish and hunt, to what we say and feel. I guess I'm entitled to bitch about what I read too.... I could careless if Mr Handicap person uses a crossbow or a Bazooka. Or any able body person for that matter. If the method is legal....Do what ya want and stop complaining.....Just because one person wants a certain experience while in the field vs another (for what ever reason) It shouldn't matter, a sports person is a sports person. WHAT ENTITLES YOU to do what you do? Think about it.

[back_water_buck]

Just out of curiosity, where exactly in our hunting regulations does it mention the words or the concept of "fair chase" or intent or spirit?

Doesn't. I didn't realize my opinions had to be based verbatim on the hunting regulations.

It's called archery season because you can't use a gun. It's called firearm season because you can't use dynamite.

My point was that lines have to be drawn. In my opinion crossbows fall outside of the intent of the archery season. Thats just my opinion. If you enjoy using a crossbow, use it in the season it's allowed for.

[Weekender#1]

You guys are going to love the X bows, so quit yer bitchen. My gosh. Here in Ohio we have been hunting with them for years and years, over 1/2 of our archery take is by X bows. The difference is you kill the animal not wounding it to run off and die elseware, I know you are different but the other guys wound them I guess. We love them down here and you will to once you get over this superior thing, some call it elitism.

[Munsterlndr]

Doesn't. I didn't realize my opinions had to be based verbatim on the hunting regulations.

It's called archery season because you can't use a gun. It's called firearm season because you can't use dynamite.

My point was that lines have to be drawn. In my opinion crossbows fall outside of the intent of the archery season. Thats just my opinion. If you enjoy using a crossbow, use it in the season it's allowed for.

Sorry, I mis- understood that you were simply stating personal opinion, primarily due to the inclusion of your post that said "the fair chase ethics that define our seasons".

In reality, our seasons are defined through rules & regulations, not individual philosophies. You may impose personal restrictions based on what your interpretation of that concept may mean, but it's an arbitrary concept that means different things to different people.

[back_water_buck]

In reality, our seasons are defined through rules & regulations, not individual philosophies.


OK - but how are those rules and regulations derived?

Isn't it through thought and discussion (ie......spirit and intent).

I don't think I'm imposing any personal restrictions, go ahead and use that crossbow in the seasons it's allowed. My point is that increasing technologies can be hard to keep up with. Whether that be improvements in traditional bows, compound bows, or crossbows (even dynamite ;)) Where should we draw the line? Where do You draw the line?

[Swamp Ghost]

And if you don't like the definition/concept find a bunch of clueless politicians to change it for ya......

[Munsterlndr]

OK - but how are those rules and regulations derived?

Isn't it through thought and discussion (ie......spirit and intent).

I don't think I'm imposing any personal restrictions, go ahead and use that crossbow in the seasons it's allowed. My point is that increasing technologies can be hard to keep up with. Whether that be improvements in traditional bows, compound bows, or crossbows (even dynamite ;)) Where should we draw the line? Where do You draw the line?

As I've mentioned before I draw the line at the point where the resource is impacted in a negative fashion. To date, no one has provided a cogent argument demonstrating how crossbow inclusion will have a negative impact on the resource.

I don't fear technology or it's impact like some seem to. Technology is inevitable and by and large it's a good thing. People have a romanticized vision of the past that is not reflective of reality. Some guys like to dress up in buckskins and use long bows or flintlocks to shoot game and they wax lyrical about how good the simple life was back then and wish they could turn back the clock. Yet they skim over the part about most people dying at around age 50 after having used up two or three wives, who died breeding the dozen or so children that were required to be sired to insure that a couple survived infancy to carry on the gene pool. I am a student of history and as such I'm aware that in years past, except for a privileged few, life was generally a pretty brutal, painful and short endeavor and that due to technology we live a privileged life at a level enjoyed by an extremely small portion of humanity.

But if you are really scared of the impact of technology, have no fear. Crossbows have been around for over 5,000 years, hardly new hunting technology unless you are comparing them to a rock. :lol:

[Liv4Huntin']

That little piece of exquisitely written paper that says I have a RIGHT to pursue HAPPINESS !! Remember that one???

To hunt with a crossbow during archery season would make me happy. Since so many have said I, ME, MINE, are what are important, that's what's important to me. AND, I believe, to MANY others, else why would this be such a large topic of ''discussion'? :cool:
~m~

[butter21]

That little piece of exquisitely written paper that says I have a RIGHT to pursue HAPPINESS !! Remember that one???

To hunt with a crossbow during archery season would make me happy. Since so many have said I, ME, MINE, are what are important, that's what's important to me. AND, I believe, to MANY others, else why would this be such a large topic of ''discussion'? :cool:
~m~
Have at it, it might not be legal though. I want to drive over the speed limit because it would make me happy. :rolleyes: :lol:

[olliek]

The part of that document that says I/We, have the right to petition government to address our grievances.

I believe that is exactly the process that is happening right now with the bill that has passed the House of Representitives and is now being considered by the Senate.

We can throw arguments all over this forum but the correct way to make changes is being undertaken right now by those who feel aggrieved with the laws as presently written.

Those who feel otherwise, have the right to address thier opposition to those members of the legislature in whose hands this Bill now awaits thier vote.

Have at it! --Dave.

[Kelly Johnson]

The part of that document that says I/We, have the right to petition government to address our grievances.

I believe that is exactly the process that is happening right now with the bill that has passed the House of Representitives and is now being considered by the Senate.

We can throw arguments all over this forum but the correct way to make changes is being undertaken right now by those who feel aggrieved with the laws as presently written.

Those who feel otherwise, have the right to address thier opposition to those members of the legislature in whose hands this Bill now awaits thier vote.

Have at it! --Dave.

Excellent post Dave.

[wolverinefoodplots]

Are crossbows really going to effect your hunting? Do you hunt on state land and are worried that someone with a x-bow will suddenly have a greater instinct to close the gap on a whitetail deer and harvest it with archery equip. Think for a second. Ohio lets archery hunters use x-bows and they have been pumping out some huge bucks over the past few years. Remember that you still need to be within 40 yards or so to make a clean kill and if x-bows help some hunters make quick kills then how can you argue with that. I myself have never used a x-bow but if they were made legal I probably would give one a try. Why not? I swithched from black powder to 777 pellets for my smoke pole and I love them. We must unite as one hunting party and if x-bows give people a reason to buy a hunting license then it will benifit all of us. Maybe you feel that x-bows are some new state of the art weapon but I believe the midevil warriors were using them before smokeless powder was invented. Uncle Ted uses them and he rocks baby!!

[boehr]

Another one that has gotten way off topic and provides no usefullness in continuation. - closed