UBNJ Campfire Article by Pres

[kmtpr]

This is from UBNJ's site.
http://www.ubnj.org/camp/fire.html

Summer 08 Campfire

My fellow bowhunters as we head away from the cool, mild days of spring into the hot, humid dog days of summer the UBNJ Council has a lot on its plate. Before I delve too deeply into any of that though first let me take a moment to congratulate anyone how was fortunate enough to have harvest a wily gobbler during this past spring turkey season, with special kudos to anyone who managed to do that with their bow. Having just harvested my first longbeard with a bow this past season I know firsthand just what a challenge it is. If you were fortunate enough to taken a nice gobbler with your bow be sure to send us a photo and if your so inclined a little story about your hunt. Kurt Wille our magazine editor will be more than happy to add your adventure to the UBNJ magazine and Pola Galie our webmaster would love to put it up on our website.

The issue that I am going to focus on today is one that is currently occupying a lot of the Council’s time and is that of the crossbow. You may or may not be aware of a push by the NJ Division of Fish and Wildlife and the Fish and Game Council for the unlimited and unrestricted inclusion of the crossbow into all of New Jersey’s bow seasons. The main justification for this is a survey performed by the Division of Fish and Wildlife that according to their statistical analysis indicates a high level of support for the crossbow inclusion. However, close examination of said survey does not at all confirm those conclusions; as a matter of fact there are several numbers we believe to be misleading to say the least.

In accordance with our mission statement the Council continues to follow the principles laid down in our By-laws which are as follows:

A). To educate the public with respect to using the longbow, recurve, and
compound bow in the hunting of all legal game and to protect, improve
and to advocate the sport of hunting with the bow in an ethical and
sportsmanlike manner.

b). To develop programs dedicated to the conservation and preservation of
game and its natural habitat. To cooperate with local, state and federal
agencies as well as sportsmens and conservation organizations,
dedicated to this purpose.

c). To educate the public on the important role played by bowhunting in
wildlife conservation and management.

d). To foster, expand promote and preserve the practice of safe bowhunting
and archery in the State of New Jersey, as well as nationally and
internationally.

e). To conduct continuous educational programs designed to acquaint the
public and the Bowhunter with the proper, legal and safe use of the bow
and arrow in the hunting of game animals.

f). To cooperate and assist other organizations with similar interests.


Our initial reaction was to stand firmly behind the UBNJ’s crossbow policy (which by the way parallels the current P&Y club standards) opposing the introduction of the crossbow into any bowseason, with the exception of those who are disabled, as is the current policy. However, in order to see how our membership felt the UBNJ performed its own survey. The results surprised some of our Council members, indicating that our membership was virtually split down the middle regarding this issue. Unlike the Division of Fish and Wildlife we are not willing to completely disregard the half of our membership that is opposed to the crossbow, at the same time we are willing to support the half of our membership that does support the inclusion of the crossbow in some way. The best way to do this is by closely examining the impact that the introduction of the crossbow could have and propose a method of introduction that will allow for said impact to be closely monitored and measured independently from the data being collected on harvests taken with hand-held, hand-drawn archery equipment.

The introduction of the crossbow as currently put forward raises some very serious concerns and completely disregards the views of a vast number of sportsmen. A main priority of the Fish and Game Council and the Division of Fish and Wildlife is supposed to be the welfare of New Jersey’s renewable white-tailed deer resource, as currently proposed the unrestricted, unlimited inclusion of the crossbow blatantly ignores the potential impact that such a weapon could have on the current stability of the deer population as well as the current distribution of the buck harvest per weapon and the potential impact on the recreational time afield that bowhunters currently enjoy. It seems to us that it would be more appropriate to phase the crossbow in a little at a time, much like the way the muzzleloader had been implemented. A muzzleloader is more like a shotgun than a crossbow is like a bow and yet there is a separate muzzleloader permit, safety course, and rifle permit required to hunt with a muzzleloader in NJ. It is apparent that the crossbow is being pushed forward to avoid any real close look at it or the impact it could have on New Jersey’s white-tailed deer, the balance between New Jersey’s hunting communities, New Jersey’s non-hunting community, as well as any potential future legislative ramifications it could have. Wouldn't this be the right thing to do from the very start?

No matter how you slice it the crossbow is not a bow, it is more like a gun. Hand-held, hand-drawn archery equipment is the more primitive weapon and requires a higher level of skill, practice and patience in order to effectively take game animals, it should thereby follow that the UBNJ fight to protect the fall bow season for hand-drawn, hand-held equipment only. The prescient of the lesser weapon being afforded the earliest opportunities is one that the Division of Fish and Wildlife and the Fish and Game Council has always adhered to and we would expect the crossbow to be no exception and not be considered for inclusion in the fall bow season in any manner.

We are all aware of the difficult financial times that all of the New Jersey governmental departments are facing and we are not insensitive to them, mirroring the crossbow introduction to that of the muzzleloader will give the Division of Fish and Wildlife a much greater financial boost than just trying to lump it in with hand-held, hand –drawn archery equipment. The crossbow should have its own separate definition, crossbow permit, zone hunting permits, and especially a hunter safety course requirement. The financial benefits from this type of introduction are plainly evident and require no in depth assessment, with the end result from the proper ground work being the creation of a 4 weapon hunter. To define the crossbow the same as all other bows is to overlook a potential windfall that could help stabilize the financial position of the Division of Fish and Wildlife.

Attempting to slip the crossbow in as archery gear in New Jersey is merely attempting to slip it past any of the issues or snags that might develop from properly putting in place the necessary requirements to safely hunt with it. The UBNJ Council will be pressing the New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife and the Fish and Game Council to implement the crossbow in much the same fashion as the muzzleloading rifle was introduced as well as emphasizing the absolute necessity of independently monitoring the effect on New Jersey’s wild resources from harvest taken with hand-held, hand-drawn archery equipment.

You can rest assured that the UBNJ Council will always continue to support, and participate in, improving sound wildlife conservation practices and the wise use of our State's renewable natural resources as well as act in the best interest of our bowhunting heritage, and stands ready to defend our way of life against any threat.

Joe Mills (joe.mills@ubnj.org)
President
United Bowhunters of New Jersey



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[November Sunrise]

It's very telling that their survey shows that their members are "virtually split down the middle " on the topic of full inclusion. It's to the credit of their leadership that they were willing to disclose that. Nonetheless, I'd still characterize their organizational stance as obstructionist, especially when you also factor in the survey results that the New Jersey department received.

[BigBirdVA]

It's very telling that their survey shows that their members are "virtually split down the middle " on the topic of full inclusion. It's to the credit of their leadership that they were willing to disclose that. Nonetheless, I'd still characterize their organizational stance as obstructionist, especially when you also factor in the survey results that the New Jersey department received.Maybe next since they're in the full disclosure mode they'll state how many members they actually have?

[November Sunrise]

Maybe next since they're in the full disclosure mode they'll state how many members they actually have?

:lol:.

I don't think we'll be seeing any specific disclosure from any of these state bowhunter organizations regarding the size of their membership rolls. As a percentage of the whole the numbers are awfully tiny.

[swampbuck]

Maybe one of the MBHA guys can tell us how many members they have. And how many of those members support adding crossbows to archery season.

Care to respond Mr. Williams ?

Those questions should be posed to the MBHA at the senate committee hearing.

[Terry Williams]

All of our members support the use of crossbows, but not for able bodied hunters. Todate I have not heard of, or from any MBH members that feel we should support full inclusion.

If you would like to know our membership numbers I suggest you join and send your request to your appropriate governor.

I can tell you that we just added over 50 new members this month alone.

[Terry Williams]

:lol:.

I don't think we'll be seeing any specific disclosure from any of these state bowhunter organizations regarding the size of their membership rolls. As a percentage of the whole the numbers are awfully tiny.


Maybe some state crossbow organzations might be willing to share some numbers with us, after all I would think that Ohio your poster child for how grand the crossbow can make everything would have the largest crossbow hunting organzation in the World.

Can you direct us to it please.

I didn't think so. :rolleyes:

[BigBirdVA]

All of our members support the use of crossbows, but not for able bodied hunters. Todate I have not heard of, or from any MBH members that feel we should support full inclusion.

If you would like to know our membership numbers I suggest you join and send your request to your appropriate governor.

I can tell you that we just added over 50 new members this month alone.So that's 26 new pro xbow guys huh? :lol:

[Riva]

All of our members support the use of crossbows, but not for able bodied hunters. Todate I have not heard of, or from any MBH members that feel we should support full inclusion.

If you would like to know our membership numbers I suggest you join and send your request to your appropriate governor.

I can tell you that we just added over 50 new members this month alone.

Terry

Of your 50 new members that you added this month, how many do you think could pull a 50 pound 65% let off bow?:evil:

[Michihunter]

All of our members support the use of crossbows, but not for able bodied hunters. Todate I have not heard of, or from any MBH members that feel we should support full inclusion.

If you would like to know our membership numbers I suggest you join and send your request to your appropriate governor.

I can tell you that we just added over 50 new members this month alone.
How many have dropped their memberships?:yikes::lol::lol:

[Terry Williams]

Terry

Of your 50 new members that you added this month, how many do you think could pull a 50 pound 65% let off bow?:evil:

Don't know we haven't tested them yet.

[Tom Morang]

I would wager that every one of those new members could shoot a modern 30lb high tech compound bow. More than enough to kill a deer.


"The problem with libel in the Internet-era is twofold - the anonymity of the Internet makes lying both easier and harder to correct, and the use of lies creates hatred that makes reconciling opposing factions difficult, if not outright impossible."---Danielle Allen

[Terry Williams]

How many have dropped their memberships?:yikes::lol::lol:


Let me say that we have an overall gain this month as we/every organization has members that don't renew.

[Michihunter]

I would wager that every one of those new members could shoot a modern 30lb high tech compound bow. More than enough to kill a deer.
Hopefully they all have experience with the compound because from what I keep hearing it takes years and years to become an accomplished shooter of one. Hate to see anyone out this season unless they havve the proper amount of time in.:D:D

[Terry Williams]

Maybe some state crossbow organzations might be willing to share some numbers with us, after all I would think that Ohio your poster child for how grand the crossbow can make everything would have the largest crossbow hunting organzation in the World.

Can you direct us to it please.

I didn't think so. :rolleyes:



Well?

[Michihunter]

Let me say that we have an overall gain this month as we/every organization has members that don't renew.How could you possibly know that? People that choose to leave an organization normally don't contact them and say they're leaving. Let me know in a year how this debacle has affected your membership.;)

[Munsterlndr]

Good one Terry! How many of those new members paid for their own membership? :lol:

I hear that MTB gave some of those same "yutes" memberships, that pretty much doubles the number of MTB's members, huh? :lol::lol::lol:

[Terry Williams]

How could you possibly know that? People that choose to leave an organization normally don't contact them and say they're leaving. Let me know in a year how this debacle has affected your membership.;)


Because mr smarty pants I get a membership report every month:evil:

[Terry Williams]

Good one Terry! How many of those new members paid for their own membership? :lol:

I hear that MTB gave those same "yutes" memberships, that pretty much doubles the number of MTB's members, huh? :lol::lol::lol:

I don't know much about MTB.

[Terry Williams]

Also let me say that our membership is up over June of last year and it doesn't include the 50 new members

[Michihunter]

Also let me say that our membership is up over June of last year and it doesn't include the 50 new membersWhat would that bring your overall membership to?

[Terry Williams]

And the report tells you how many dropped their membership? Or merely the number of non renewals?

Non renewals. But I'm sure once our membership finds out that "we" are against the crossbow in the archery season they'll only be me and Tom Morang left.

[Michihunter]

Non renewals. But I'm sure once our membership finds out that "we" are against the crossbow in the archery season they'll only be me and Tom Morang left.
Don't forget J Eberhart:D:D

[Riva]

I would wager that every one of those new members could shoot a modern 30lb high tech compound bow. More than enough to kill a deer.


I disagree. More importantly, the opportunity to vaildate the mortality effectiveness would not be proven out at my camp. That's because I would categorically not permit it, irrespective of the age of the shooter.

That stated, it's nice to see that you are up for a friendly wager. A few of your compatriots appear to have a strong adversion to them.:D

[Munsterlndr]

So how many of those new member's paid and how many were given memberships for free?

A salute to your new members, after the picture I hope had a celebratory toast ........................... of 2% milk!:lol:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/newmembers.jpg

All kidding aside, I think it's great that you are recruiting youth into bow hunting and I applaud your efforts.

I do wonder though, if you gave those same kids the option of shooting crossbows as well as compounds, how many might exercise free will and freedom of choice and choose to use crossbows? If they are old enough and mature enough to participate in killing living animals, surely they are old enough to make their own decisions regarding choice of weapons? :evil:

[Terry Williams]

So how many of those new member's paid and how many were given memberships for free?

A salute to your new members, after the picture I hope had a celebratory toast ........................... of 2% milk!:lol:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc112/Munsterlndr/newmembers.jpg

All kidding aside, I think it's great that you are recruiting youth into bow hunting and I applaud your efforts.

I do wonder though, if you gave those same kids the option of shooting crossbows as well as compounds, how many might exercise free will and freedom of choice and choose to use crossbows? If they are old enough and mature enough to participate in killing living animals, surely they are old enough to make their own decisions regarding choice of weapons? :evil:


I agree, I bet if we gave them the option of riding a bike or driving a car some of them would crash into you carrying their xbows

[swampbuck]

Why do you not want to state the amount of members?

Will you answer that question at the senate comm. hearing,...... Well you probably cant because your not a michigan resident, but will the MBH guys that live actually live in michigan have that data? AFTER ALL THEY SHOULD HAVE PLENTY OF ROOM IN THEYRE ANTI CROSSBOW DATA FILE.:lol::lol::lol:

[November Sunrise]

.

I can tell you that we just added over 50 new members this month alone.

What an absolutely classic post. You guys buy 50 memberships for kids and then on this forum you attempt to point to that as evidence of membership growth.

http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=155799&MESSAGES=16&state=MI

Let's see. 50 new memberships - 50 memberships that you bought for others = zero members added who were willing to part with their own money in the past month. Shocking :lol::lol:!!

I don't know if MBH has any dollars available, but if you do, you guys are in desperate need of some assistance with PR.

[swampbuck]

As a non-profit theyre membership should be public info. I have not been able to find it. ANY IDEAS?

[Terry Williams]

You guys sure do hate MBH don't you, I already told you that without counting the 50 youth memberships we are up in memberships over last year. We aren't accountable to you. So tell us about the Michigan xbow organization, how many members.

Tell us what all you talking heads have done for kids this summer, with your own money, better yet post some pictures.

You can't all you do is whine about MBH.

Come to our annual rendezous in Marion this weekend, bring your xbows to the shoot

[Terry Williams]

What an absolutely classic post. You guys buy 50 memberships for kids and then on this forum you attempt to point to that as evidence of membership growth.

http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=155799&MESSAGES=16&state=MI

Let's see. 50 new memberships - 50 memberships that you bought for others = zero members added who were willing to part with their own money in the past month. Shocking :lol::lol:!!

I don't know if MBH has any dollars available, but if you do, you guys are in desperate need of some assistance with PR.


Do you really think sponsoring 50 kids to camp isn't PR. Again show me what you Michigan x bowers have done for kids

[Michihunter]

Do you really think sponsoring 50 kids to camp isn't PR. Again show me what you Michigan x bowers have done for kids
I would certainly hope it's more than just PR for you guys. And I choose not to toot my own horn. I have my own kids to do that for me every hunting/fishing season.;)

[November Sunrise]

As a non-profit theyre membership should be public info. I have not been able to find it. ANY IDEAS?

I'm not aware of any requirement that exists for a non-profit to report membership info. I'm not saying that there isn't one, I'm just saying that I'm not aware of it.

It's also my understanding that there are different non profit designations. Some non profits have federal 501(c)3 status, but someone told me that an organization could have non profit status in MI under an organizational format that is simpler than the federal 501(c)3 classification.

I'm guessing that MBH has at least 800 members, and I highly doubt that they have more than 2,000. The unwillingness of an established organization to reveal actual membership numbers is an indication that the numbers aren't anything to crow about. In addition, allmost every well established pro hunting organization in existence has seen declining membership numbers over the past decade. It's just the way the things have been trending.

[Terry Williams]

I would certainly hope it's more than just PR for you guys. And I choose not to toot my own horn. I have my own kids to do that for me every hunting/fishing season.;)


Of course it is, its dedication. I didn't post the picture here, one of your countrymen did, I just responded to it, so don't twist things. It's easy to do things for your own kids, do it for somebody else's and donate your own time to do so.

[Terry Williams]

I'm not aware of any requirement that exists for a non-profit to report membership info. I'm not saying that there isn't one, I'm just saying that I'm not aware of it.

It's also my understanding that there are different non profit designations. Some non profits have federal 501(c)3 status, but someone told me that an organization could have non profit status in MI under an organizational format that is simpler than the federal 501(c)3 classification.

I'm guessing that MBH has at least 800 members, and I highly doubt that they have more than 2,000. The unwillingness of an established organization to reveal actual membership numbers is an indication that the numbers aren't anything to crow about. In addition, allmost every well established pro hunting organization in existence has seen declining membership numbers over the past decade. It's just the way the things have been trending.


Wrong. Again tell me about your xbow org? That should be something to crow about, your up to 8 or is it 9?

[swampbuck]

You guys sure do hate MBH don't you, I already told you that without counting the 50 youth memberships we are up in memberships over last year. We aren't accountable to you. So tell us about the Michigan xbow organization, how many members.

Tell us what all you talking heads have done for kids this summer, with your own money, better yet post some pictures.

You can't all you do is whine about MBH.

Come to our annual rendezous in Marion this weekend, bring your xbows to the shoot


We dont have a crossbow organization YET. but it has been mentioned in passing conversation. Still dont want to talk numbers ?

I have heard that it was around 2500 at the high point but its about 1000 now. Is that about right.

What have I done for kids. well lets see, I have voluntereed in the classroom at school. I have helped the elementary pta, american heritage girls(girl scouts) A.Y.S.O., I baked and decorated graduation cakes (hobby)for the 4 th grade classes. TOOK A FEW KIDS FISHING AND BLUEBERRY PICKING. etc.

[Terry Williams]

We dont have a crossbow organization YET. but it has been mentioned in passing conversation. Still dont want to talk numbers ?

I have heard that it was around 2500 at the high point but its about 1000 now. Is that about right.

What have I done for kids. well lets see, I have voluntereed in the classroom at school. I have helped the elementary pta, american heritage girls(girl scouts) A.Y.S.O., I baked and decorated graduation cakes (hobby)for the 4 th grade classes. TOOK A FEW KIDS FISHING AND BLUEBERRY PICKING. etc.

So zero? O? You need to xbow your sources, they are wrong. :lol:

Thanks for your help with kids.:)

[Michihunter]

Of course it is, its dedication. I didn't post the picture here, one of your countrymen did, I just responded to it, so don't twist things. It's easy to do things for your own kids, do it for somebody else's and donate your own time to do so.
I don't need an organization to do for children. My own children and their friends are more than happy with what my wife and I do for them. Thankfully I'm not easily offended or that particular comment would seem a bit derogatory. Until you know what's happening on the other side of the fence, I'd suggest you stick to the facts as you know them. ;)

[November Sunrise]

Do you really think sponsoring 50 kids to camp isn't PR. Again show me what you Michigan x bowers have done for kids

No, in and of itself it's not PR. Now if you put that info in the hands of even a mildly skilled PR person then it would become PR. And not just PR, but good PR, that would reflect positively on your organization.

You probably thought I was joking when I said that MBH should get some PR help. I'm serious as a heart attack. Look at how your organization has blundered every opportunity at communication in recent months regarding your stance on crossbow permits for disabled hunters. There are multiple other areas, but the way that you guys have handled this issue alone has cast a dark shadow on your organization.

Now, I know some of your members and a few of your leaders, and without exception they are guys that I have respect for in terms of their ethics and values. We don't see eye to eye regarding crossbow inclusion, but I wouldn't in any way suggest that takes away from their character. When I attempt to reconcile who I know these guys to be with the way your organization has communicated regarding the discrimination that you continue to advocate against disabled hunters it leaves me completely scratching my head. And the only thing I can conclude is that your group would greatly benefit from some help in framing your message.

[Michihunter]

And the only thing I can conclude is that your group would greatly benefit from some help in framing your message.

Or "framing the messenger" at the very least.:lol::lol: (Just a joke. In no way do I advocate pinning a crime on anyone):D:D

[Terry Williams]

I don't need an organization to do for children. My own children and their friends are more than happy with what my wife and I do for them. Thankfully I'm not easily offended or that particular comment would seem a bit derogatory. Until you know what's happening on the other side of the fence, I'd suggest you stick to the facts as you know them. ;)


That's laughable that you would even suggest that your not easily offendable. You cast aspersions at MBH. We are an organization that does do for kids and we don't need to toot our own horns, quite simply we just do. We have been doing for along time and will continue to do so, you and other want to paint us with a broad brush as uncaring selfish bow hunters.

I am offended by you and others like you that want to insult an organization like MBH because we don't suppport full inclusion of the crossbow. MBH has been about the business of helping bow hunting in the state longer than you have been alive.

Please be offended I'd be a little disappointed if you weren't

[Terry Williams]

No, in and of itself it's not PR. Now if you put that info in the hands of even a mildly skilled PR person then it would become PR. And not just PR, but good PR, that would reflect positively on your organization.

You probably thought I was joking when I said that MBH should get some PR help. I'm serious as a heart attack. Look at how your organization has blundered every opportunity at communication in recent months regarding your stance on crossbow permits for disabled hunters. There are multiple other areas, but the way that you guys have handled this issue alone has cast a dark shadow on your organization.

Now, I know some of your members and a few of your leaders, and without exception they are guys that I have respect for in terms of their ethics and values. We don't see eye to eye regarding crossbow inclusion, but I wouldn't in any way suggest that takes away from their character. When I attempt to reconcile who I know these guys to be with the way your organization has communicated regarding the discrimination that you continue to advocate against disabled hunters it leaves me completely scratching my head. And the only thing I can conclude is that your group would greatly benefit from some help in framing your message.

Thank you and I agree with some of the things you have said

:)

[Terry Williams]

Goodnight

[Riva]

You guys sure do hate MBH don't you, I already told you that without counting the 50 youth memberships we are up in memberships over last year. We aren't accountable to you. So tell us about the Michigan xbow organization, how many members.

Tell us what all you talking heads have done for kids this summer, with your own money, better yet post some pictures.

You can't all you do is whine about MBH.

Come to our annual rendezous in Marion this weekend, bring your xbows to the shoot

I cannot tell you about the number of new members of the Michigan x-bow organization. That's because, there is no Michigan x-bow organization!

The bottom line is: "what you see (read) is what you get." We're just some concerned and perhaps, forward thinking individuals, each acting independantly and, of their own volition, who see discrimination and want to stop it, who see selfishness and, want to change it, who see opportunity, and want to share it!

Our membership is not measured and/or valued in numbers, but rather, in fairness.

You and I are galaxies apart. You want to keep. We want to share. Ours is an ancient concept that has yet to become stale. Yours is a temporal concept encased in some "tradition" that, whether you know it or not, has built its foundation upon a culture that is akin to a sign on the front lawn that reads, "'KEEP OUT!"

Terry, I do not hate you for what you think. Rather, I hate that your thinking stunts opportunity for others when, at the end of the day, it is not yours to dispense.

[Michihunter]

That's laughable that you would even suggest that your not easily offendable. You cast aspersions at MBH. We are an organization that does do for kids and we don't need to toot our own horns, quite simply we just do. We have been doing for along time and will continue to do so, you and other want to paint us with a broad brush as uncaring selfish bow hunters.

I am offended by you and others like you that want to insult an organization like MBH because we don't suppport full inclusion of the crossbow. MBH has been about the business of helping bow hunting in the state longer than you have been alive.

Please be offended I'd be a little disappointed if you weren'tMBH has distorted facts for their own agenda. Not mine. I happen to be a bowhunter from MI. And have been for 30 years. Do NOT pretend to represent me.Do NOT use distorted statements to try to pass an agenda on behalf of ALL bowhunters. Do NOT even try to represent people that you are out of touch with. If you feel that 2000 members represent the bowhunters of MI, you sir are sadly mistaken. You are not helping anyone but your own little organization and doing it quite poorly I might add. The representation of MBH by yourself and the spokespeople I have read ,are the laughable ones. You are a prime example of WHY there is very little cohesion in sportspeople and even much less in bowhunters. As for casting aspersions, nowhere in any of my posts have I cast anything but facts and questions. Unfortunately when you get painted into a corner through such things you feel a need to spout off in a defensive nature.Once again, a prime example of the leadership qualities existing in the MBH. :rolleyes:

[swampbuck]

That's laughable that you would even suggest that your not easily offendable. You cast aspersions at MBH. We are an organization that does do for kids and we don't need to toot our own horns, quite simply we just do. We have been doing for along time and will continue to do so, you and other want to paint us with a broad brush as uncaring selfish bow hunters.

I am offended by you and others like you that want to insult an organization like MBH because we don't suppport full inclusion of the crossbow. MBH has been about the business of helping bow hunting in the state longer than you have been alive.

Please be offended I'd be a little disappointed if you weren't

AS ONE OF THE OTHERS LIKE HIM .... I dont have a problem with a organization promoting archery hunting. I do have a problem with an organization using rediculous and absolutly false claims to exclude another group from having access to a PUBLIC resource.

[TOW]

I would wager that every one of those new members could shoot a modern 30lb high tech compound bow. More than enough to kill a deer.


POOOEEEYY!

Marginable at best..

30 pounds will ding more deer than they will kill...

[Terry Williams]

MBH has distorted facts for their own agenda. Not mine. I happen to be a bowhunter from MI. And have been for 30 years. Do NOT pretend to represent me.Do NOT use distorted statements to try to pass an agenda on behalf of ALL bowhunters. Do NOT even try to represent people that you are out of touch with. If you feel that 2000 members represent the bowhunters of MI, you sir are sadly mistaken. You are not helping anyone but your own little organization and doing it quite poorly I might add. The representation of MBH by yourself and the spokespeople I have read ,are the laughable ones. You are a prime example of WHY there is very little cohesion in sportspeople and even much less in bowhunters. As for casting aspersions, nowhere in any of my posts have I cast anything but facts and questions. Unfortunately when you get painted into a corner through such things you feel a need to spout off in a defensive nature.Once again, a prime example of the leadership qualities existing in the MBH. :rolleyes:

Once again your number is way off and secondly if we have "2000" paying members we are certainly more instep with the needs of the Michigan bow hunter than you and your non existent xbow org.

Tell me how "you" are representing "bow" hunters. Bow hunters like you that have caved in to the xbow is why bow hunting has sunk to a new low.

I have yet to receive one email or call from a member telling me that they favor full inclusion. You are just a vocal minority.

Defensive I don't think so, when you recieve some of your own medicine your system goes into overload and its you that becomes defensive.

The next time you see an MBH member thank them for making your archery season possible. While you type on the internet we have people that in the trenches something you take for granted and know very little about.

Talk about cohesiveness, what has brought more discord to bow hunting than the xbow? Did you really want to talk about cohesiveness? What you mean is that we should just don't swallow what "you" believe is correct.

Talk about leadership? Give me a break, leadership is alot more than typing internet posts and I have been involved in bow hunting issues for over 30 years. I have served in a elected capacity for approx. 10 years.

I have asked this before and have yet to receive and answer. Since Ohio has had xbows for over 30 years tell me about their state organization? Xbower will never form a solid statewide organization to promote bow hunting. Your ACF has few members go to their site, they only have 200 + members and thats nationwide, hardly a mandate for xbows.

[Michihunter]

Once again your number is way off and secondly if we have "2000" paying members we are certainly more instep with the needs of the Michigan bow hunter than you and your non existent xbow org.

Tell me how "you" are representing "bow" hunters. Bow hunters like you that have caved in to the xbow is why bow hunting has sunk to a new low.

I have yet to receive one email or call from a member telling me that they favor full inclusion. You are just a vocal minority.

Defensive I don't think so, when you recieve some of your own medicine your system goes into overload and its you that becomes defensive.

The next time you see an MBH member thank them for making your archery season possible. While you type on the internet we have people that in the trenches something you take for granted and know very little about.

Talk about cohesiveness, what has brought more discord to bow hunting than the xbow? Did you really want to talk about cohesiveness? What you mean is that we should just don't swallow what "you" believe is correct.

Talk about leadership? Give me a break, leadership is alot more than typing internet posts and I have been involved in bow hunting issues for over 30 years. I have served in a elected capacity for approx. 10.

[B]I have asked this before and have yet to receive and answer. Since Ohio has had xbows for over 30 years tell me about their state organization? Xbower will never form a solid statewide organization to promote bow hunting. Your ACF has few members go to their site, they only have 200 + members and thats nationwide, hardly a mandate for xbows.[B]

Check your membership reports for my name. It was there in the mid to late 90's until I found out that their agenda does NOT represent me or my family of bowhunters. So should I thank myself for all I have done?:rolleyes: You are elected to an organization that misconstrues and flat out lies about an issue facing ALL bowhunters, not just your paying membership. To pretend to represent Michigan Bowhunting is a stretch when your numbers barely approach 1% of all current bowhunters. I won't deny that some good has come from MBH but on this issue, they (and you) are missing the boat. The greed and self centered-ness portrayed by MBH and yourself by attempting to keep good people out of the woods with lies and innuendos is sad. You must be proud.:rolleyes:

My motivation for backing full inclusion happens to be one of sharing. And I speak only for myself, my children and the friends I nkow that back me. That may amount to a dozen people or so, but I have no trouble fighting for those I hold dear. I actually KNOW these people I speak for. I have collected no dues froom them and I have little trouble telling you the numbers I speak for. Why does MBH have trouble with disclosure?

I don't even own a crossbow but I'm not afraid of allowing another sportsman to share the woods with me that does. I have no trouble allowing a child, a woman, a senior, or even an able bodied man to share my passion for hunting. If they choose to use another weapon, than by all means do so. The bottom line is the only reason that a person could possibly be against allowing a crossbow during archery season would be due to their own self serving attitude. The people that you have seen posting on this topic in favor of full inclusion have been some of the most giving and generous people known. This cannot be denied even by the people against full inclusion. You are a relative newcomer to this board and have little clue as to who these people are yet you claim to know what MI needs or wants. Take a moment and look at the people that are in favor of inclusion and you will notice a common trend- they want to ADD more opportunities and share what they love. The ones against it all seem to have a bad case of "I, me, and mine -itis". If you feel that your goal is honorable to your fellow man, then by all means carry on. But at the very least, let everyone know that you are speaking on behalf of a very few bowhunters here in MI.

PS- As to your question regarding OH? I don't concern myself with OH nor it's organizations. I don't hunt there and never have. If you feel it's all important that an "organization" represent people then I'm afraid we will have to disagree. Organizations are only as good as the people that make them up.

[awshucks]

"Your ACF has few members go to their site, they only have 200 +"

Terry:

You will do better sticking to topics that you know something about. Your "200+" is absurdly low.

[Terry Williams]

Well they only have 223 members at the CBN website and alot of those aren't xbow proponents.

[Terry Williams]

I called and spoke with Dan Hendricks and he indicated you had about "2000" members and that was nationwide including Canada. So my number was incorrect.

[awshucks]

I'd almost bet there's more to this story, lol.

[butter21]

POOOEEEYY!

Marginable at best..

30 pounds will ding more deer than they will kill...

Disagree you would probably have to practice a lot, but you can get a pass though with 30 pounds. Its all about shot placement, and knowing your distance. Give me a 30 pound bow, buck at 15 yards or less, and ill give you meat in the freezer.

[Michihunter]

Disagree you would probably have to practice a lot, but you can get a pass though with 30 pounds. Its all about shot placement, and knowing your distance. Give me a 30 pound bow, buck at 15 yards or less, and ill give you meat in the freezer.
Wouldn't it be "deader" if you used a crossbow?:lol::lol::lol: