A Pro-Crossbow Guy from 28 BC

[Riva]

You know, one of the cornerstones of the anti-crossbow advocacy is that the crossbow is not as difficult to use as say, a long bow, recourse or compound bow. And, it is this "difference" in the level of excursion one puts forth that they believe should make the crossbow illegal to use during the archery season. In essence, "You don't put forward the same amount of excursion than I, and thereby, you cannot achieve the same amount of gratification that I achieve, therefore you must be excluded."

The pro-crossbow advocacy asks one logical question in response to this selfish attitude which, to this day, remains largely void of any cogent response. They ask: What right do you have to exclude me simply because my level of excursion and/or or personal gratification from this activity differs from yours level of excursion and/or personal gratification?" In other words, the anti crossbow people are just plain unhappy by the fact that I am happy and, that I don't burn as many calories as they do to achieve my happiness. Of all the arguments the anti-crossbow advocacy puts forward (and they put forward many), this is amongst the weakest and, the one they avoid answering the most.

As a thinking person, one would ask, "why would another person hold in contempt another person because of what I have just described to the level of excluding the other person from that activity?" After all, these are merely subjective and esoteric feelings that impact only the person that experiences them. It's just so flawed that it screams for a more substantive answer other than their standard "cuz it is!".

Well, it appears that I'm not the first person to ask that question. A while back, another fellow posed the same interrogatory based on the same dichotomy of men's actions. And, believe it or not, it even precedes Fred Bear, Pope and Young and even Teddy Roosevelt. It comes from an ancient political philosopher who lived in the first century before the birth of Christ, specifically: Marcus Tillius Cicero (106 BC - 46 BC).

Cicero's original text from "The Purposes of Good and Evil"
…neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?"

English Translation:

Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure.


Key words: "who has any right to find fault"

Think about it.:)

[Michihunter]

Kind of amazing that someone should find level-headed reasoning lacking as early as 2 millenniums ago. Even more amazing is that the problem still exists this much later in time.

[Terry Williams]

I am certain Cicero used a Matthews.

[Riva]

I am certain Cicero used a Matthews.

A typical, yet expected response.:sad:

Too bad. So sad:sad:

[Terry Williams]

A typical, yet expected response.:sad:

Too bad. So sad:sad:

Oh please, you need to relax a little. Your way too intense.

[bucksnbows]

You know, one of the cornerstones of the anti-crossbow advocacy is that the crossbow is not as difficult to use as say, a long bow, recourse or compound bow. And, it is this "difference" in the level of excursion one puts forth that they believe should make the crossbow illegal to use during the archery season. In essence, "You don't put forward the same amount of excursion than I, and thereby, you cannot achieve the same amount of gratification that I achieve, therefore you must be excluded."

The pro-crossbow advocacy asks one logical question in response to this selfish attitude which, to this day, remains largely void of any cogent response. They ask: What right do you have to exclude me simply because my level of excursion and/or or personal gratification from this activity differs from yours level of excursion and/or personal gratification?" In other words, the anti crossbow people are just plain unhappy by the fact that I am happy and, that I don't burn as many calories as they do to achieve my happiness. Of all the arguments the anti-crossbow advocacy puts forward (and they put forward many), this is amongst the weakest and, the one they avoid answering the most.

As a thinking person, one would ask, "why would another person hold in contempt another person because of what I have just described to the level of excluding the other person from that activity?" After all, these are merely subjective and esoteric feelings that impact only the person that experiences them. It's just so flawed that it screams for a more substantive answer other than their standard "cuz it is!".

Well, it appears that I'm not the first person to ask that question. A while back, another fellow posed the same interrogatory based on the same dichotomy of men's actions. And, believe it or not, it even precedes Fred Bear, Pope and Young and even Teddy Roosevelt. It comes from an ancient political philosopher who lived in the first century before the birth of Christ, specifically: Marcus Tillius Cicero (106 BC - 46 BC).

Cicero's original text from "The Purposes of Good and Evil"
…neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?"

English Translation:

Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure.


Key words: "who has any right to find fault"

Think about it.:)

To answer your reply to my posting earlier you asked answer these question 1. how do yu know 2. why should you care. (oreo cookie)
First let me say the gratification one gets from using one weapon versus another is in the eye of the beholder. A shooter buck is also in the eye of the beholder. I am just as happy for the guy who shoots a spike as for the guy who shoots the book buck. I am personally at a different level in my "hunting career" I have shot enough yung bucks to know my skills as a hunter are capable of finding bucks in general. Know I am challenging and teaching my self to harvest mature bucks. I would just like to see our state of Michigan improve its deer herd to be more balanced and hold more mature bucks. I know it can be done but it will not be easy. As for the crossbows for everyone I feel it will not help with managing our deer herd. It will raise license sales here are som statistics over 6 year period in 7 states that allowed crossbows into their archery season starting in 1998.(info from Archery Business Magazine)
1998 2006
Iowa 36,800 47,100
Kansas 17,800 21,080
Illinois 86,700 120,000
wisconsin 246,000 249,000
Minnesota 66,000 70,000
Virginia 58,000 61,000
Lets also rember that states that allow crossbows such as Ohio, Wisconsin,Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, the Dakotas and many other states allow one buck per season no matter what weapon. And these are big buck states with out any antler restrictions and 100,000 to 200,000 less bow hunters than Michigan. More hunters means more 1.5 year old bucks being killed during bow season wich just adds to the problem that so many on this site including myself are trying to fix. We all know hunters who shoot two 1.5 year olds every year. Alot of guys who gun hunt only will basically be given a chance to hunt with a short range gun(crossbow) Adding more 1.5 year old bucks being killed. The guys who only shot one during gun season might now shoot one during bow season then one during gun season.(I would never refer to gun hunters as slobs one guy who hunts is one less anti hunter) If the state would enforce a one buck rule I would say let the crossbows fly. Everyday someone complains about the lack of or over abundance of deer we have, or the young bucks being killed or the lack of guys killing does or vice versa. So in my opinion adding more weapons to the very liberal and lengthy seasons we already have is not going to help. Adding crossbows has its pros but IMO the cons are more detrimental. Thats why I should care.

[Michihunter]

That isn't even 63k combined in 6 entire states yet you contend that 200k will join in the archery season if MI includes crossbow? Do you realize we have lost alot more than 63k bowhunters in the last 10 yrs? Your statistics contradict your contentions. And then you mention 1.5 yr old buck killss as a potential problem. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the weapon of choice. Regulations and hunter choice control those things. Your statistics prove out that bowhunters numbers are not going to rise above the number of bowhunters that have hunted MI in the past. So with that in mind, your argument is pretty weak in my opinion.

[walrus]

IMO- WHAT I HUNT WITH SHOULD BE MY CHOICE, WHAT I HUNT " CAN BE" OUR CHOICE! THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE ISSUES!!!!!!!!! :rant:

[ridgewalker]

The point that Riva raises from Latin logic is very germane for several historical and modern day reasons:
1) Latin and Greek law and logic (as was Biblical) was the basis of both English and American law and logic.
2) Another interesting statement from the Bible made by a somewhat notable speaker says he who is without fault cast the first stone.
It seems that many in this age do not remember the struggle to get compound bows made legal. All the same arguments were made and yet the deer herd is still there. Thus by logic if one faults the crossbow, the compound bow is also at fault. (I am old enough to have participated in that struggle.)
3) Again back to good old Cicero who can not argue that the present day compound offers much less pain and fewer skills than the longbow with which I began hunting.
4) In present day history, we have all or most all learned that bills must be paid. Increased sales=higher revenue for the DNR to pay the bills. Unless one enjoys paying vastly higher license fees this is a pro for crossbows.
5) Another Biblical principle being equality (whether misused in history is not the issue) We are to treat all people with equal respect and dignity.
That is not done when others are treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens.
6) Greek and Latin logic also stated that logic proceeds in linear progression. The idea that there will be a different set of expectations than now is present with compounds is not only not linear it is not logic.
The DNR already has a limit established for deer kill and the number per person will not change at this time by law. Also some gun hunters already take 2 deer whether a doe and a buck or 2 bucks or 2 does. Many already choose to hunt with a compound, muzzleloader,etc. The number of varied weapons does not now, supposedly, affect the deer kill so there is no logic in suggesting that one more will.
7) The last piece of logic: If one argues against the crossbow, then that person is also arguing against the compound bow because they are both legitimate hunting devices for the same reasons.
8) a post mortum thought (tongue in cheek) If the DNR/NRC has always adjusted the personal kill limit and dmu limits why should one assume they won't do the same in the future if they feel it is necessary. The force that is in control of the herd will continue to control because that force is now mandated by both law and logic.

[bucksnbows]

That isn't even 63k combined in 6 entire states yet you contend that 200k will join in the archery season if MI includes crossbow? Do you realize we have lost alot more than 63k bowhunters in the last 10 yrs? Your statistics contradict your contentions. And then you mention 1.5 yr old buck killss as a potential problem. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the weapon of choice. Regulations and hunter choice control those things. Your statistics prove out that bowhunters numbers are not going to rise above the number of bowhunters that have hunted MI in the past. So with that in mind, your argument is pretty weak in my opinion.

ok the 200k addeed hunters was just a number I threw out there i know there was no accuracy in that. and with the 1.5 yearolds being shot I mean that if the rate of bow hunters rises due to being able to use crossbows more than likely that will mean more hunters will havest more 1.5 yearolds during the bow season. As for us losing bowhunters thats because our management is horrible. Leave the state and you will see more trophy class bucks in one week than you will here in a season. As for the crossbow issue I am not going to post any more of my opinions about it. The state is going to do whatever they need to do to produce more money anyhow. I enjoy my time afield and I do quite well and I really don't need to be getting involved with these political conversations. I'll just stick to helping other hunters take mature bucks in this highly pressured state with whatever information I may think they find usefull. sorry SENATOR???????????

[Thunderhead]

This has nothing to do with the implied cornorstone of "difference" in the level of excursion " and everything to do with wether the crossbow is to be considered archery equipment.

Currently, it is not.

I can say all of this in Pig Latin, but, I'm cook'in some dead chickins on the grill..........;)

[Michihunter]

This has nothing to do with the implied cornorstone of "difference" in the level of excursion " and everything to do with wether the crossbow is to be considered archery equipment.

Currently, it is not.

I can say all of this in Pig Latin, but, I'm cook'in some dead chickins on the grill..........;)

When most people look for a definition of something the place they go is a dictionary correct? Well very dictionary known to man says that it is indeed archery equipment by "definition". Can anyone truly dispute that a crossbow is in fact archery equipment when archery is defined as:

1. The art, sport, or skill of shooting with a bow and arrow.
2. The equipment of an archer.


Here's what a bow/crossbow is by definition:-
Merriam-Webster:
Bow2: a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow
Crossbow: a weapon for shooting quarrels and stones that consists chiefly of a short bow mounted crosswise near the end of a stock
Encarta:
Bow2. weapon for firing arrows: a weapon used to fire arrows, consisting of a curved flexible piece of wood and a taut string fastened to the two ends
Crossbow: A bow consisting of a wooden stock, or handle, with a bow made of wood, iron, or steel crossing it at right angles.
Dictionary.com:
bow 1.a flexible strip of wood or other material, bent by a string stretched between its ends, for shooting arrows
cross·bow [kraws-boh, kros-]–noun
a medieval weapon consisting of a bow fixed transversely on a stock having a trigger mechanism to release the bowstring, and often incorporating or accompanied by a mechanism for bending the bow.
Webster's Online :
bow (bō) . Curved piece of resilient wood with taut cord to propel arrows.
Crossbow1. A bow fixed transversely on a wooden stock grooved to direct the arrow (quarrel).
Answer.com:
bow (bō) n. 2. A weapon consisting of a curved, flexible strip of material, especially wood, strung taut from end to end and used to launch arrows.
cross·bow (krôs'bō', krŏs'-) A weapon consisting of a bow fixed crosswise on a wooden stock, with grooves on the stock to direct the projectile.
Wikipedia:
A bow is a weapon that projects arrows powered by the elasticity of the bow. As the bow is drawn, energy is stored in the limbs of the bow and transformed into rapid motion when the string is released, with the string transferring this force to the arrow.
A crossbow is a weapon consisting of a bow mounted on a stock that shoots projectiles, often called bolts.

[Falk]

Your definition of crossbow is not correct. It includes the word skill.

[Michihunter]

Your definition of crossbow is not correct. It includes the word skill.
Sorry, but I've never published a dictionary. Those are other peoples definitions.;)

BTW- That was included in the definition of archery.

[Liv4Huntin']

Your definition of crossbow is not correct. It includes the word skill.
Then we may assume you have shot and hunted with one so you are making your assumption based on first hand information... correct? :rolleyes:...
I thought so.
~m~

[Riva]

[quote=Thunderhead;2240033]This has nothing to do with the implied cornerstone of "difference" in the level of exursion " and everything to do with whether the crossbow is to be considered archery equipment.

Currently, it is not.

Sorry Thunderhead..straight from the MDNR website:

DEFINITIONS
Crossbow - a weapon consisting of a bow mounted transversely on a stock or frame and designed to fire an arrow bolt or quarrel by the release of a bow string controlled by a mechanical or electric trigger with a working safety and a draw weight of 100 pounds or greater.

Now, that therrrre aint no pig latin, Barney. That there is that big ol' State of Michigan talk'n to ya! (my Andy of Mayberry impression)

You don't want crossbows because you simply don't like them. Well, sorry, Thunderhead, that just aint enought reason to keep people from having a choice in these matters any longer. And, if it drives you so nuts that a guy in a tree a half a mile away is using a crossbow, I suggest that you take a pill, a big pill, cuz life as you knew it before is no longer. Get used to it. Suggest you read my signature.

BTW--I'm doing ribs tonight. I have a great recipe that I'll be happy to share. You know, at the end of the day, it's all about sharing.:)

[Thunderhead]

Well, Riva, maybe it is and maybe it ain't. ( My best John Wayne impression )

And as of right now that ole reason IS good enough cause it ain't.
That right there is the good old State of Michigan talk'in at ya pard.

[bishs]

If you look at any modern crossbow, its truly a hybrid weapon. It looks like a cross between a gun and a compound bow. Most who frequent this site support its useage in our bow season. So everyone can participate, with free choice of weapon ect.

How do these people feel about using modern muzzle loaders and shotguns during our long bow season? This would allow anyone to hunt, select any weapon, free choice.

[CHASINEYES]

If you look at any modern crossbow, its truly a hybrid weapon. It looks like a cross between a gun and a compound bow. Most who frequent this site support its useage in our bow season. So everyone can participate, with free choice of weapon ect.

How do these people feel about using modern muzzle loaders and shotguns during our long bow season? This would allow anyone to hunt, select any weapon, free choice.

According to Cicero, thats the way it should be.

[Michihunter]

If you look at any modern crossbow, its truly a hybrid weapon. It looks like a cross between a gun and a compound bow. Most who frequent this site support its useage in our bow season. So everyone can participate, with free choice of weapon ect.

How do these people feel about using modern muzzle loaders and shotguns during our long bow season? This would allow anyone to hunt, select any weapon, free choice.
If they propelled arrows from a string instead of bullets from a controlled explosion I'd say bring em on. Unfortunately they don't and therefore should be included with Firearms. ;)

[Munsterlndr]

If you look at any modern crossbow, its truly a hybrid weapon. It looks like a cross between a gun and a compound bow.

Since the crossbow predates the gun by several thousand years, it is impossible for it to be a hybrid weapon, as for that to be the case, guns would have had to existed prior to crossbows being invented. Maybe it would be more accurate to state that the shape of the stock incorporated into some firearms is patterned after the general shape & function of the tiller of a crossbow. I'm confident that Cicero would agree with the logical infallibility of this statement. ;)

[Falk]

Live4huntin, Yes you are correct. I have shot them and like I said, No Skill required. Been a bowhunter 44 years and this is how I feel.

[J Eberhart]

Why are there age restrictions in gymanastics in the Olympics?

Why can't gun hunters hunt during bow season?

Why can't baseball players use aluminum bats?

Why can't athletes use steroids?

Why can't a heavyweight fight against a flyweight?

Why can't I use live bait in a bass tournament?

Why can't I use spinners or crawlers in a flies only stretch of river for trout?

Why can't I have as many shells as I want in my shotgun when duck hunting?

Why can't I as a bowhunter use a full draw holding device while bowhunting (crossbows are held in the cocking position with the saety on)?

Why can't I snag salmon, they are going to die anyway?

Why can't professional golfers use any equipment they want?

Why are there regulations on anything??????????????????????

[Thunderhead]

Maybe we should have a seance and ask Cicero. :lol::lol:

[Michihunter]

Cicero couldn't make it, so I'll stand in for him.;):DWhy are there age restrictions in gymnastics in the Olympics? Worldwide platform and only a restriction on that stage. Girls of ALL ages can still compete in gymnastics.

Why can't gun hunters hunt during bow season? They can, just has to be during Muzzleloader season.

Why can't baseball players use aluminum bats? They can, just not in the major leagues.

Why can't athletes use steroids? They can. Just has to be the right type and with prescription.

Why can't a heavyweight fight against a flyweight? The fact that they can box even though they have different classes leaves this argument empty.

Why can't I use live bait in a bass tournament? Tournament rules for professionals. Everyone can still use live bait if they aren't competing.

Why can't I use spinners or crawlers in a flies only stretch of river for trout? Because some people lobbied for it and convinced thoise in charge that people and the fishery would benefit from it.

Why can't I have as many shells as I want in my shotgun when duck hunting? Those rules effect EVERYONE.

Why can't I as a bowhunter use a full draw holding device while bowhunting (crossbows are held in the cocking position with the saety on)? Actually they can. It's called a leg and can be easily used with any 99% let off bow.

Why can't I snag salmon, they are going to die anyway? Good question and one I believe that has to do with sportsmanship.

Why can't professional golfers use any equipment they want? They can. Just not in a professional tournament.

Why are there regulations on anything?????????????????????? Do you really need an answer here? Regulations should be maintained for EVERYONE and established on a fairness basis. If a rule is put in place that has no apparent benefit to those it's governing, then it should be changed. Such is the bill for full inclusion.;)

[J Eberhart]

There are restriction to keep things relatively equal for all involved and not give someone an advantage. Your arguments are weak at best.

Might I ask as you did me on a personal maessage; how does the lack of full inclusion affect you personally. If yu remember correctly you mentioned to me that if full inclusion didn't affect me personally, why should I care.

Partial birth abortion does't affect me either, but I still take a stance against it.

So I would like to know as you did me, how does not allowing full inclusion personally affect you and the people on this forum. I do not want to hear anything about disabilities because that is now covered. I also do not cae to hear anythinhg about 9 year old kids and weak wives. I know for a fact that any woman can draw a 40 pound bow if she puts just a little effort into it.

So lets hear your stories.

[Michihunter]

There are restriction to keep things relatively equal for all involved and not give someone an advantage. Your arguments are weak at best.

Might I ask as you did me on a personal maessage; how does the lack of full inclusion affect you personally. If yu remember correctly you mentioned to me that if full inclusion didn't affect me personally, why should I care.

Partial birth abortion does't affect me either, but I still take a stance against it.

So I would like to know as you did me, how does not allowing full inclusion personally affect you and the people on this forum. I do not want to hear anything about disabilities because that is now covered. I also do not cae to hear anythinhg about 9 year old kids and weak wives. I know for a fact that any woman can draw a 40 pound bow if she puts just a little effort into it.

So lets hear your stories.Unlike your lack of response to the question you are referring to, I have no trouble giving an answer.

Full inclusion or the lack thereof affects me in that I cannot CHOOSE to use a piece of equipment that by all definitions known to man is indeed archery equipment. My support is further aided by the FACTS being derived from other states that have included the crossbow that shows no adverse effects to either herd or hunter.

As for your contentions regarding women and children, I find it hard to understand how someone could possibly know the problems of each individual effected by physical limitations. But I do understand your reluctance to discuss such matters. It goes against your own preconceived notions.;)

[ridgewalker]

Let's make another attempt at reason both from the present and from history. Examine the compound bow with its cables, wheels, cams, modern sights (including scopes that I have seen mounted on them), near 100% let off, releasing devices of varying kinds, silencers, balancing systems, varying artificial materials for arrows, high speed systems, and probably some I have forgotten to mention; does this not make it a modern weapon with little to nothing to do with the longbow. Certainly this requires little skill compared to the longbow. With good sights and everything in balance, a very tight group of placement can be had without too much practice. Disagree, ok, this type of shooting has no comparison to that of instinct shooting of the longbow. I have seen folks new to the compound, when set up as described, after very little instructions make groupings that would be effective for a killing shot on a deer. Does this mean that compounds should again be banned because they are a modern weapon? Apparantly too many have forgotten the struggle that was needed to legalize their use. Most of those that choose to use a crossbow only wish to do so because they have limitations that prevent the best use of the compound. Quite a few of those fought for the compound or many of today's compound users would not have that privilege. If one is against the crossbow, it is then only fair and right that the person is question be against the compound. The only legitimate difference that has been given between the two is that the compound has to be drawn back prior to the shot. There are ways to lock it or hold it almost indefinitely with the new letoff. Therefore if a person feels one should be banned then so should the other. That is the only LOGICAL conclusion.

No One Left Out = Full Inclusion

[Lwapo]

My understanding is that you can use a crossbow during the firearm season. (I don't use one, and I don't know for sure, but that is my understanding)

ASSUMING that is true, if you are a crossbow enthusiast, why not just use it during the gun season?

[Michihunter]

My understanding is that you can use a crossbow during the firearm season. (I don't use one, and I don't know for sure, but that is my understanding)

ASSUMING that is true, if you are a crossbow enthusiast, why not just use it during the gun season?Because a crossbow is archery equipment and should be included with an archery season.

[ridgewalker]

Good question. A crossbow enthusiast wishes to use an archery hunting weapon (the crossbow) in archery season; not an archery hunting weapon in gun season. Why do some choose to use a handgun, shotgun, rifle, or muzzleloader in gun season? Simple, because they want freedom of choice with a firearm. The crossbow enthusiast wants the same in archery season. Is the next logical question, then, should freedom of choice be eliminated from all seasons; whereby only one very specifically defined weapon is used in that season? That would certainly generate an interesting discussion. Those that wish to use the crossbow only want what other hunters have in every other season; the choice of weapon for that particular season that fits their needs.

No One Left Out = Full Inclusion

[Thunderhead]

Because a crossbow is archery equipment and should be included with an archery season.

Ahem,
In your opinion. ;)
Alot of us here don't agree with that statement, alot of states don't either, including Michigan.

[Riva]

John, after reading your litany of "WHY" in you recent post, I thought that I was listening to catchy tune from the 1950's by Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvUW0n2TdWs


Frankly, I do not see any of your interrogatories to be anywhere relevant to the theme of this thread. The theme of this thread is: What right do you have to exclude me simply because my level of exertion and/or or personal gratification from this activity differs from your level of excursion and/or personal gratification?" In other words, you people are just plain unhappy by the fact that I am happy and, that I don't burn as many calories as you do to achieve my happiness.

John, to be 100% honest and not to offend, I never heard of you and/or your deer hunting exploits until you posted those silly statements here on M-S about all those crossbow manufacturer reps attending the House meeting last June. Accordingly, I asked an old pal who's much more involved in this stuff and he knows of you and has read all your books. As part of that conversation, he shared something to the effect that you are such a devout deer hunter that you are actually set up in your blind/tree stand a good 2-3 hours before daybreak! Now that's devotion!

Also, it means that you're probably walking to your stand while most of us back at camp are slugging their last gulp of Bud Light, puffin the last puff of some cheap cigar and, dragging the chips in from the last pot from Texas Holdem. In other words, somewhere about 3:00 AM followed immediately by most everybody else, except you, hitting the sack.

If indeed you do stuff like I just described, that's really admirable (serious). However, it brings up a dichotomy that that can't be ignored: You assert that you put so much exertion into your archery efforts that any hunter who puts in any measure less than your standard should be excluded, particularly crossbow hunters because it's clear that their level of exertion is profoundly less than yours, comparatively speaking.

Well John, if you are going to think that way, you have to paint everybody with the same brush that puts in any level of exertion less than you, irrespective of the weapon they use; a long bow, a compound bow, a crossbow. Are you ready to do that? Why then, just the crossbow? Why not apply the same standard to the others? And, if you say it's because the crossbow requires the least exertion of the group, I would say bullsh**. You either adhere to the standard for ALL or you don't apply to ANY!

The bottom line is this....your "standard" is just that: YOUR standard. It's not MY standard. And John, no matter how much exertion you put into your efforts to hunt, no matter how much gratification you get from your efforts, no matter how great the results in killing giant deer, those belong solely and exclusively to YOU and NOT me. Furthermore, when you attempt to exclude me from participating in the same activity because I do not mimic and or attempt to embrace your standards, that is when the thinking person strikes back.

John, do you think there is any correlation between your and other organizations position of "exclusion" and what the pro crossbow people advocate towards "inclusion"? Well, let me break the news to you: 94 -14 on HB5741 H2! As much as anything else, that vote in the House was a referendum against the long-standing limiting mentality of "exclusion" that you and so many others continue to advocate. John, As long as you guys continue to take the posture that "archery should be as hard for them as it is for me and, if not, they should be excluded" you are going to run up against a brick wall. That is simply a fact!

From what I'm told, the sentiment against "exclusion", as a policy is, unlike Frankie Lymon's record I mention earlier, is not on the top 10 hit parade up in Lansing at the moment. If you dislike crossbows so much, I suggest you guys you find a better horse to pull your wagon. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[Michihunter]

Ahem,
In your opinion. ;)
Alot of us here don't agree with that statement, alot of states don't either, including Michigan.
You can disagree with Webster all you want. But I would certainly like to know where you do get your definitions from if not a dictionary. As for MI saying that it isn't archery equipment I disagree. They in fact do define it as a bow and therefore archery equipment. They just don't allow that particular piece of archery equipment in the archery season for everybody (yet). . ;)

[ridgewalker]

The DNR/NRC has now said the crossbow is legal archery equipment for an expanded group of physically challenged hunters in archery season. Is that not definition enough? It also speaks to the pain and effort argument as that is why these new set of rules were passed: to provide reasonable, appropriate, functional archery equipment for this group of people. If you believe that those who need and choose crossbow equipment do not have pain and put in a lot of effort, you may be uninformed. As the thread implied, please do not find fault if you haven't walked in their shoes. These new regs have helped an expanded group but not everyone who could use one.


No One Left Out = Full Inclusion

[J Eberhart]

definition of vehicle-any receptacle or means of transport, in which something is carries or conveyed, or travels.

I guess a semi truck and wheel barrel are the same.

This whole definition thing is unbelievable to me. If you are trying to tell anyone that a vertical bow and a crossbow are the same because of the definition in a dictionary, you gotta be kiddin.

[Terry Williams]

definition of vehicle-any receptacle or means of transport, in which something is carries or conveyed, or travels.

I guess a semi truck and wheel barrel are the same.

This whole definition thing is unbelievable to me. If you are trying to tell anyone that a vertical bow and a crossbow are the same because of the definition in a dictionary, you gotta be kiddin.

No John, the sad part is that they are serious

[Riva]

definition of vehicle-any receptacle or means of transport, in which something is carries or conveyed, or travels.

I guess a semi truck and wheel barrel are the same.

This whole definition thing is unbelievable to me. If you are trying to tell anyone that a vertical bow and a crossbow are the same because of the definition in a dictionary, you gotta be kiddin.

Hey everybody: the theme of this thread is "being excluded by virtue of crossbows not requiring the same amount of exertion." It is NOT a debate regarding the definition and/or functionality between one being considered archery equipment and one not.

I know it's easy to dismantle the anti-crossbow folk's platforms but, we have to do it one at a time. :D

Stay on topic no matter what the soon-to-be-defeated's attempt to derail the thread by tossing in everything, including the kitchen sink.

[swampbuck]

My understanding is that you can use a crossbow during the firearm season. (I don't use one, and I don't know for sure, but that is my understanding)

ASSUMING that is true, if you are a crossbow enthusiast, why not just use it during the gun season?


View Poll Results: during the firearms/muzzleloader season which weapon do you use ? firearm in firearm season 5376.81%archery in firearm season 811.59%muzzleloader in muzzleloader season 4260.87%archery in muzzleloader season 1724.64%Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 69. You have already voted on this poll

how about asking the people who frequent the archery forum who voted in this pole, why they dont use theyre bows in firearm season.. seems like the vast majority of them use firearms in firearm season, and based on the fact that they are probably more of the hardcore type bowhunters than most who frequent this this site. I would expect that the majority in the general population would be MUCH higher

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244425

[Michihunter]

definition of vehicle-any receptacle or means of transport, in which something is carries or conveyed, or travels.

I guess a semi truck and wheel barrel are the same.

This whole definition thing is unbelievable to me. If you are trying to tell anyone that a vertical bow and a crossbow are the same because of the definition in a dictionary, you gotta be kiddin.By definition you are correct. Semi's, bikes, big wheels and yes wheel barrels are all vehicles. And guess what, you can use them all to transport if you'd like. Never heard of one being outlawed from being used as as a means of transportation, have you?:lol:

[ArcticcatMan]

It cracks me up that some of these guys have mineral blocks, create water holes, plant food plots, use sprays to attract deer and hide from deer, use fiber optic sights, some use bait piles, walkie talkie back and forth, ect..... and then complain that crossbows don't keep with the archery hunting tradition.

[Thunderhead]

LMAO :)

Wow.

Don't let'em get to ya John, Your not alone by a long shot. I knew what you were talking about when describing the art of bowhunting and what it takes to be successful, so does every other bowhunter that has put in his time.

This arguement isn't about what's hardest or easiest.

Is that the States stance ? What's harder ? What easier ?

What exactly is the State Of Michigans REASON for for not allowing crossbows/full inclusion at this time ? Anybody know ? Please, no opinions.

[Thunderhead]

By definition you are correct. Semi's, bikes, big wheels and yes wheel barrels are all vehicles. And guess what, you can use them all to transport if you'd like. Never heard of one being outlawed from being used as as a means of transportation, have you?:lol:

Sure I have ! LOL

Semi's are only allowed on certain roads, weight restrictions apply to many.

Bikes can go quite a few places, but are again restricted from certain roadways.

Big Wheels and a wheelbarrels. Ever see one on the highyway ?
Opps, restricted. There's that word again. :lol:

[Michihunter]

Sure I have ! LOL

Semi's are only allowed on certain roads, weight restrictions apply to many.

Bikes can go quite a few places, but are again restricted from certain roadways.

Big Wheels and a wheelbarrels. Ever see one on the highyway ?
Opps, restricted. There's that word again. :lol:
Yet none are outlawed from doing what they are defined as doing- transporting. In other words, your son can use his big wheel, his scooter, his bike, his skateboard, or his roller blades if he so chooses as modes of transportation. Archery is a season for archery equipment yet not all weapons defined as archery equipment are allowed. That's the correlation.

Another thing that you could add is that the regulations you listed have everything to do with safety. However, I've yet to hear that as being an issue with crossbow inclusion. Or would that be the next straw grasped by the anti's?

[Thunderhead]

Yet none are outlawed from doing what they are defined as doing- transporting. In other words, your son can use his big wheel, his scooter, his bike, his skateboard, or his roller blades if he so chooses as modes of transportation. Archery is a season for archery equipment yet not all weapons defined as archery equipment are allowed. That's the correlation.

Another thing that you could add is that the regulations you listed have everything to do with safety. However, I've yet to hear that as being an issue with crossbow inclusion. Or would that be the next straw grasped by the anti's?


( C'mon now, no insults are warrented. :) )
Hmmm That part of that almost makes sense to me, but I'm tired and gonna hit the sak. I'll read it again in the morning. :)

Have a good night fellas.

[Thunderhead]

What exactly is the State Of Michigans REASON for for not allowing crossbows/full inclusion at this time ? Anybody know ? Please, no opinions.


I was serious about this question. I've never seen it.

Does anybody have the exact wording of the exclusion pertaining to archery season and why the state does not allow crossbows ?

[Michihunter]

I was serious about this question. I've never seen it.

Does anybody have the exact wording of the exclusion pertaining to archery season and why the state does not allow crossbows ?
I honestly don't know. I'm not sure there is a "reason" to be honest with you.

BTW- No insult intended in that last reply. I apologize if it came off as one.;)

[Moonkryket]

"Live4huntin, Yes you are correct. I have shot them and like I said, No Skill required. Been a bowhunter 44 years and this is how I feel."

I've been bowhunting since 1963 and have bowhunted with virtually every recurve, long bow and compound on the market and during the last 3 years I have bowhunted in Virginia with crossbows (legal for bowhunting for 3 years). The "no skill required" that we often hear is misleading. There is no skill required for a compound shooter that uses mechanical triggers, drop away rests, battery powered fiber optic sight pins, string peep sights, stabilizers and an 8 lb draw holding weight........:lol:........as compared to a long bow with wooden arrows being shot with fingers. I think the only bowhunters that can truly say they do it the hard way are these guys. I bowhunted with Owen Jeffery long bows in 65/74/81 lb draw for 15 years and loved it. The "excuse" for not allowing crossbows because they tend to be more accurate than a vertical compound shot by the average bowhunter makes no sense to me. They all require skill to achieve their level of accuracy potential. I think the crossbow is the most humane followed by the compound and last on the list is the longbow and recurve simply due to the crossbow's slight accuracy advantage for the average shooter. I ask what's wrong with that?

[TOW]

My experience mirrors yours, Moonkryket.

There is not a dimes worth of difference in killing a deer with a high tech, high let off compound than that of killing one with a crossbow.

You guys can thump your chests and say how hard it is to kill a deer with a compound bow, but you are only fooling yourselves..

[Liv4Huntin']

Live4huntin, Yes you are correct. I have shot them and like I said, No Skill required. Been a bowhunter 44 years and this is how I feel.

Glad for you. However the rest of the question involved "HUNTING with one." Let's hear your FIRST HAND knowledge of actually HUNTING with a crossbow. On second thought, don't want to get off topic. Another thread....
~m~

[Thunderhead]

[B]" [COLOR=black]I've been bowhunting since 1963 and have bowhunted with virtually every recurve, long bow and compound on the market

That would be quite an acomplishment.

[Munsterlndr]

I was serious about this question. I've never seen it.

Does anybody have the exact wording of the exclusion pertaining to archery season and why the state does not allow crossbows ?

The prohibition of crossbows is the result of a 1940 Michigan Attorney General's opinion.

Prior to 1937, there was no mention of archery equipment in Michigan hunting regulations, only firearms were defined as a legal weapon. A few hunters, including Fred Bear, hunted with bows during that period but the legality of their actions was something of a gray area because the regulations did not make any mention of archery tackle. In 1937 the first archery season was established but it did not include any definition of a bow. The original season ran from Nov. 1 - 14th and was limited to bucks only. Michigan had a one buck limit at that time,so archers had to choose whether to use their license on a buck during archery or firearms season. It's doubtful that anyone used a crossbow during that period but if they had, the legality of it would have been a similar gray area to that experienced by long bow users prior to 1937.

In 1940 the Attorney General offered an opinion that stated that it was unlawful to use crossbows to hunt deer in Michigan. Note that this applied to using crossbows both during archery and firearms season. It did not define a crossbow as being either a bow or a gun, it simply prohibited their use for hunting deer during all existing seasons.

In 2001 this prohibition was superseded by a wildlife order enacted by the NRC which allowed the use of crossbows during the Nov. 15 - 20th firearms deer season and which set the criteria for disabled permits that allowed the use of crossbows during archery deer season. It did not offer a definition that defined a crossbow as either a bow or a firearm.

So prior to 2001, crossbows were prohibited from use during all Michigan deer seasons, not just archery season. This prohibition lends no credence to the "it's not a bow" theory put forth by the anti's.

[J Eberhart]

Michihunter

Crossbows anre not denied from doing what they were designed to do either, shoot a bolt at a target. Just not at a deer unless you are handicapped and can't use a conventional bow. There are far more state that do not allow full inclusion than do. In fact I believe Ohio is the only state with decent bowhunter numbers that allow them.

I believe the state does not allow them because there are people in the state DNR and senate that acually hunt and they are very aware of the stark contrasts between the two.

I talked to one gentleman (do not ask for a name because he wanted to stay anonamous) who went on an African hunt within the last year and he took two crossbows with him (no compounds) to see how effective they would be. Taking the first crossbow out of the box (brand new), it took him 8 arrows to have it zero'd in at 40 yards (they pretty much are sighted in from the factory). He said that there was absolutely no sense in continuing to shoot because all he did was slap bolts. He took several animals including a bull elephant in which he had full penetration. He said that other than the kills, the only time he had shot a crossbow in several years was when he sighted that one in, he did not practice at all other than the sight in.

I sort of agree with ArcticcatMan concerning foodplots, bait, mineral blocks, cocain, and whatever. They have definitely taken away from what I personally consider bowhunting. Baiting is very contraversial and the DNR has considered taking it away on several occassions, but just like anything else, once something is legal, try taking it away.

Once something that generates additional revenue is legalized by a government agency, they quickly find a way to adsorb and use the added revenue. If after a few years they want to take that law away, for whatever the reason, it is difficult because they then have to find a way of replacing that revenue to keep the department running as is.

God forbid they raise license fees. After all, what a jip, it cost me $15 to bowhunt for 3 months. That is 16 cents a day. A coke is $1.39, one cigarette costs about .21, and one decent meal with the wife is a minimum of $30 to $50. Yet many complain about the cost of a deer license.

Why don't you guys make a post concerning license costs and how low they are. It might get more traction than the same 15 guys complaining about something that has already been put to bed for this year.

[swoosh]

Sure I have ! LOL

Semi's are only allowed on certain roads, weight restrictions apply to many.

Bikes can go quite a few places, but are again restricted from certain roadways.

Big Wheels and a wheelbarrels. Ever see one on the highyway ?
Opps, restricted. There's that word again. :lol:

We all have different definations for eveything, it's OK gentlmen:lol:

IMO running along side a combine shooting a buck is not hunting at all;) A real hunter would have stalked the buck in the corn;)

If the law passes and there is a choice, those who think xbow is not archery can use their bows, those who do can use and X-Bow.

That is why choice is a good thing;)

[Michihunter]

John- You run from one gamut to another every time you respond. I didn't bring up the 'definition' argument. I merely defended it. If you aren't of the opinion that a crossbow is archery equipment, you aren't arguing with me but rather a few distinguished people that create the definitions of words. I choose to rely on those same people for my definitions. The crossbow will not be more unsafe for anyone if full inclusion was implemented. And that should be the defining criteria when implementing weapons that are considered equipment for that particular season. Not what your opinion of hunting is.I continually hear you trying define what "real" hunting is and yet it isn't a definition at all, but merely your "fashion" of hunting.

And now you are actually trying to use the argument that crossbows are "too efficient" as if that is somehow a bad thing? Are you kidding me? :confused: I think it's best if we just agree to disagree here John. ;)

[J Eberhart]

Swoosh (god I like that name)

I respectfully disagree with you

In my phone conversations with Ohio dealers (and I called several), their bow season is now a crossbow season with about 60% of the hunters in the field toting crossbows.

By the way, although the dictionary defines a crossbow as a type of bow, our season is called bow season, not crossbow season. Similar to muzzleloader season being called muzzleloader season, not gun season even though they are a gun. Don't give me the, well you can use a muzzleloader during the gun season argument, because they were originally a much more inferior weapon than a shotgun prior to in-lines. I had the state record buck with a muzzleloader from 1981 until it got beat in 1986. Back then they used round balls and patches, look where they are today. They outperform shotguns by leaps and bounds.

Anyway, crossbows over the years in Ohio have wore many hunters down.

Picture this, There are four buddies that hunt together and one of them doesn't like to practice or put much of an effort into hunting an therefore he doesn't have the consistent success that his friends do. All of a sudden crossbows are legal and he buys one so that he doesn't have to practice at all. Now, with a shooting rail on his stand he can shoot deer at farther distances than his friends that work at being proficient with archery equipment. He immediately becomes the most proficient killer in the group of four.

No matter what anyone on this forum may think, hunting for most is an egotistical activity. Most everyone wants to kill the big buck. I shot a six point, well, I shot an eight point, I hear it all the time.

After a year or two of the (for lack of a better word) lazy hunter outdoing his buddies they convert as well, in order to take longer shot opportunities and stay competitive. Sure there are bow guys that are capable of 40 yard shots, but they are not the norm. Anybody with a good crossbow and a rest can shoot 40 to 50 yards effectively with no problem (again I have shot them so this fact is not up for discussion). This scenario has happened in Ohio and the amount of independant archery only pro shops that are still standing is the proof.

There are definitely hunters that do not fall into the egotistical or competitive category, but they are few.

[Thunderhead]

IMO running along side a combine shooting a buck is not hunting at all;) A real hunter would have stalked the buck in the corn;)


I could see hunting a woodline while a farmer is combining,
BUT,
You would have to be an idiot to run along side of a combine ? Who did that, do you have a link ?

[Michihunter]

You do realize that it's neither bow nor crossbow season but rather ARCHERY season, right? And it is not GUN season but rather FIREARM season.

[Thunderhead]

Just curious, but why are we still arguing ? It's quite apparent that nobody is going to change their stance.

It ain't going to happen this year, so why keep duking it out with both sides saying the same thing over and over again ?

[swoosh]

I could see hunting a woodline while a farmer is combining,
BUT,
You would have to be an idiot to run along side of a combine ? Who did that, do you have a link ?

It was an example, that's it;) We could say keep pace with a combine inside a treeline and shoot a buck as it gets pushed out by the combine;) Since the poor deer is confused, it's not really hunting:)

That's how some sound when folks degrade others tatics or weapon. Not wanting to hunt with a certain weapon, and stating it's not hunting if one chooses to hunt with it are two differnent things IMO.

Hell anyone can shoot a confused deer pushed out by a combine;)

John I really don't care what guys are hunting with in Ohio, MI or Alaska. If it's legal and they are having fun what do I care;)

[Riva]

Michihunter

Crossbows anre not denied from doing what they were designed to do either, shoot a bolt at a target. Just not at a deer unless you are handicapped and can't use a conventional bow. There are far more state that do not allow full inclusion than do. In fact I believe Ohio is the only state with decent bowhunter numbers that allow them.

I believe the state does not allow them because there are people in the state DNR and senate that acually hunt and they are very aware of the stark contrasts between the two.

I talked to one gentleman (do not ask for a name because he wanted to stay anonamous) who went on an African hunt within the last year and he took two crossbows with him (no compounds) to see how effective they would be. Taking the first crossbow out of the box (brand new), it took him 8 arrows to have it zero'd in at 40 yards (they pretty much are sighted in from the factory). He said that there was absolutely no sense in continuing to shoot because all he did was slap bolts. He took several animals including a bull elephant in which he had full penetration. He said that other than the kills, the only time he had shot a crossbow in several years was when he sighted that one in, he did not practice at all other than the sight in.

I sort of agree with ArcticcatMan concerning foodplots, bait, mineral blocks, cocain, and whatever. They have definitely taken away from what I personally consider bowhunting. Baiting is very contraversial and the DNR has considered taking it away on several occassions, but just like anything else, once something is legal, try taking it away.

Once something that generates additional revenue is legalized by a government agency, they quickly find a way to adsorb and use the added revenue. If after a few years they want to take that law away, for whatever the reason, it is difficult because they then have to find a way of replacing that revenue to keep the department running as is.

God forbid they raise license fees. After all, what a jip, it cost me $15 to bowhunt for 3 months. That is 16 cents a day. A coke is $1.39, one cigarette costs about .21, and one decent meal with the wife is a minimum of $30 to $50. Yet many complain about the cost of a deer license.

Why don't you guys make a post concerning license costs and how low they are. It might get more traction than the same 15 guys complaining about something that has already been put to bed for this year.

John, this post is so full of innuendo and generalizations it makes one dizzy. There is however; one statement contained in your convoluted prose that is 100% on the mark.
If I may...
"I sort of agree with ArcticcatMan concerning food plots, bait, mineral blocks, cocaine, and whatever. They have definitely taken away from what I personally consider bow hunting."

This is a profound statement.."from what I personally consider bow hunting".

That, is the very essence of the debate specifically: "what you consider bow hunting". It is, in the final analysis, a subjective state-of-mind, an "opinion". It is not right, it is not wrong, it is not up, and it is not down. It is, however; 100% yours. And, John, you are entitled to harbor those feelings and opinions as long as you want and, as much as you want.

That said, you may consider your personal attitudes to be superior, which is one thing. The problem comes with the actual manifestation of your way of thinking. How? You advocate that people whose attitudes are not perfectly aligned with yours should be actually excluded from participating in that activity--again, simply because their subjective attitude differs from your subjective attitude, i.e. "the one true faith".

Conversely, I could give a ratsazz what type of archery equipment you hunt with; be it a longbow, a compound bow and/or a crossbow. Have at it and enjoy your day in the woods.

Again, you are entitled to your narrow, subjective thinking. But read my lips: as part of that, you are not entitled to exclude people from simply having a choice. We have recently witnessed the first dismantling of this evil manifestation by the whopping 94-14 vote on HB5741 H-2, a bill that will allow for the full inclusion of the crossbow during any season where other archery equipment is permitted. The final dismantling will come in the Senate, where, once and for all, your narrow and limited thinking surrounding exclusion, will be put to eternal rest.

And John, here’s the beauty part...even though there will now be crossbows in the woods, you can still have your opinions. After all, it is America.;)

[Thunderhead]

It was an example, that's it;)

No it wasn't . You were referring to a buck I killed last year.
It was an incorrect example. Period.
One that was taken from a post, warped and spun to your advantage.
The "example " you stated never happened .



"Hell anyone can shoot a confused deer pushed out by a combine"

Ever tried it ? ;)

[TOW]

Swoosh (god I like that name)

I respectfully disagree with you

In my phone conversations with Ohio dealers (and I called several), their bow season is now a crossbow season with about 60% of the hunters in the field toting crossbows.

There are more Ohio vertical bowhunters now than when the "crossbows" were legalized. The numbers of vetrical archers and the kill they make grows each year. The Ohio vertical archers have set harvest records for EVERY year for the last 8 years. So, tell us how does Ohio crossbow use negatively affect the Ohio vertcial bowhutners when their numbers are increasing and their harvest goes up EVERY year.

BTW - which direction is the number of Michigan bowhuters going?

Also, that "about 60%" figure also includes the switch hitters that will use both a compound and a crossbow as they see fit.

Regardless if there are more crossbowers or not that does not keep any Ohio deer hunter from making the choice to use a vetrical bow, does it?

By the way, although the dictionary defines a crossbow as a type of bow, our season is called bow season, not crossbow season.

Actually it is not called "bow season". It is called ARCHERY SEASON.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_46403_46404_46408-177472--,00.html (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_46403_46404_46408-177472--,00.html)

Contrary to what you, MBH and the host of other anti-crossbow people and organizations say the crossbow is archery equipment. As such it can be considered for the Michigan ARCHERY SEASON.

Similar to muzzleloader season being called muzzleloader season, not gun season even though they are a gun. Don't give me the, well you can use a muzzleloader during the gun season argument, because they were originally a much more inferior weapon than a shotgun prior to in-lines. I had the state record buck with a muzzleloader from 1981 until it got beat in 1986. Back then they used round balls and patches, look where they are today. They outperform shotguns by leaps and bounds.

Not relevent to what we are discussing. Nice pat on the back though.

Anyway, crossbows over the years in Ohio have wore many hunters down.

AGAIN - There are more vertical bowhunters now than when the "crossbows" were legalized. The numbers of vetrical archers and the kill they make grows each year. The Ohio vertical archers have set harvest records for EVERY year for the last 8 years. So, tell us how does Ohio crossbow use negatively affect the Ohio vertcial bowhutners when their numbers are increasing and their harvest goes up EVERY year.

How so? Can not any Ohio hunter still pick and choose what he is hunting with? Does the legalization of crossbows say that a deer hunter can no longer use a compound bow to hunt with? The crossbow is just another chocie in ARCHERY hunting gear.

Picture this, There are four buddies that hunt together and one of them doesn't like to practice or put much of an effort into hunting an therefore he doesn't have the consistent success that his friends do. All of a sudden crossbows are legal and he buys one so that he doesn't have to practice at all. Now, with a shooting rail on his stand he can shoot deer at farther distances than his friends that work at being proficient with archery equipment. He immediately becomes the most proficient killer in the group of four.

No matter what anyone on this forum may think, hunting for most is an egotistical activity. Most everyone wants to kill the big buck. I shot a six point, well, I shot an eight point, I hear it all the time.

After a year or two of the (for lack of a better word) lazy hunter outdoing his buddies they convert as well, in order to take longer shot opportunities and stay competitive.

STAY COMPETITIVE???

Now that is real funny. Do you really think that we should be in competition with each other when we go deer hunting? Is it not enough for a hunter to just pit their skills against the animal that they are pursuing? Do we have to one up our fellow hunters? If so, and in my honest opinion, that hunter is hunting for the wrong reasons.

"Lazy hunter"? How about that fellow shooting that high tech, high let off whiz bang all the bells and whistles compound versus that trad guy shooting a long bow? Is not the "modern" bowhunter taking the easy way out and thus a "lazy hunter"?

BTW - where is the "practice police" to be sure that no one is being a "lazy hunter"? Is non-lazy practice some sort of hidden hunting requirenment that we don't know about?

Sure there are bow guys that are capable of 40 yard shots, but they are not the norm. Anybody with a good crossbow and a rest can shoot 40 to 50 yards effectively with no problem (again I have shot them so this fact is not up for discussion). This scenario has happened in Ohio and the amount of independant archery only pro shops that are still standing is the proof.

Let’s see just how accurate vertical bowhunters are at 40 to 50 yards..

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=738795 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=738795)

WOW!! Looks like quite few are into real good hunting accuracy at 40 to 50 yards, huh? Soup can accyracy. that is less than 3 inch groups.

How about this one? LOTS of 50 and 60 yards KILLING shots being made here.

Longest Kill Shot on Whitetail

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=737398&highlight=yards (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=737398&highlight=yards)

There are definitely hunters that do not fall into the egotistical or competitive category, but they are few.

You must run with a lot different crowd than I do. Whatever happened to going deer hunting for the fun and fellowship without making a pizz **** contest between other hunters? That is one of the big problems with hunting today is that some want to kill a big buck no matter what and then laud it over their buddies.

Is that YOUR idea of hunting?

That is also the reason that some don’t want anyone else in their deer woods if they don’t hunt exactly like they do. You’ve proven that out pretty well with this post.

I’ve got two words to say to that – SELFISH AND JEALOUS.

[oldbhtrnewequip]

I was serious about this question. I've never seen it.

Does anybody have the exact wording of the exclusion pertaining to archery season and why the state does not allow crossbows ?

Great question. I've done a lot of research in this area for many states.
There is typically no reason(s) tied directly to the formulation of any given hunting regulation that you can easily find. Its the rule.

Sometimes you have explanation given in commentary as a preamble to the regulation. Its the exception.

You have to go to the public hearings and listen to the testimony (or read the transcripts) to discern the intent and meaning behind the development. In many(if not most) cases, the majority of the voters that actually put a law or regulation into effect could care less, about that specific issue, but they do care about other issues, and 'horse trade' their votes for concessions in other areas that they do care about.

In some cases, someone in a position of authority, speaks as the penultimate decision maker and doesn't actually need to explain the reasons or rationales for his decision, and the infallibility of his decision
is not to be questioned. Sometimes it gets explained and sometimes not.

The roots of the crossbow being outlawed are tied to Gregorian reform
It all had to do with....God having all power over what we do, and his law being the only law and the pope acting acting as his regent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_reform
"They" came up with this thing called "dictatus papae" which basically means "As pope what i say goes."

Nonetheless, those behind the Gregorian reform understood the power of the states and allowed them their control while still assuming a significant amount of control for themselves. I say themselves because the king needed support as opposed to being the be all end all. It could be really simple and it really could be "what I say goes and that's that", but likke with all big institutions, people need to have their parts and play their roles. No king is a king without his roundtable. This resulted in the Roman Curia.

Think of the Roman Curia as the worldwide legislative and judicial branches of the Catholic church.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm

Of course, there are national chapters to this law making body.
http://www.clsa.org/content/

Im getting ahead of myself... back to the historical part...
The pope, Pope Urban, took this newly assumed power of the papacy, due to the Gregorian reform, and outlawed (by decree) the crossbow. Kind of makes you wonder if he was petitioned to create and uphold this law through papal decree, or if he came up with it of his own accord. I don't know. What is known is that he and his cronies of the time decided that crossbows were bad juju. (no pun intended. no religious slam intended)
I'm keeping it in because it is absolutely the best word to convey my thoughts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju

Urban, oh by the way, happened to be the same pope that started the first crusade. It was previously determined during the Gregorian reform that you can't 'buy' a position in the church with money. Yet somehow Urban saw fit to absolve anyone participating in the crusade of previous sins. The reason this is relevant is because the use of the crossbow was considered sinful. It was NOT okay to use crossbows against fellow countrymen in western Euroope. However it WAS okay to use crossbows against the Muslims.

Kind of like you can use them for deer but you can't use them for turkey.
(Did I say that Maryland just allowed this year crossbow hunters to go after turkey?).

How many times have the Catholics apologized for that action? Once that I know of....

http://wais.stanford.edu/Religion/religion_pope.html

You'd think John Paul would have had the wisdom to discuss the valid use of crossbows during hunting seasons as an equally important issue but he had his hands full with the Muslim response. I suspect he didn't feel that the crossbow special interest groups were a big enough threat to have to
deal with them simultaneously. I'll suggest that now that things have calmed down somewhat over the crusades being a bad idea, that its time to petition Benedict for an encyclical demystifying the crossbow and speaking out against Pope Urban's vilification.

Something doesn't compute for me here. The same Pope that started the crusades and said this was a good thing, saw evil purpose behind the use of the crossbow. I wonder why....more research is in order.....

Of course there are those who say the crossbow was not outlawed until the Second lateran council and Pope Innocent, but I believe it is entirely possible that Urban started the bruhaha. The times are very close to one another. The Taborites, who used crossbows, were in direct conflict with the Catholic church from a doctrine/dogma perspective. They too thought all non believers (of what they believed) should perish. They had a lot in common with Urban, and were Christians. But they were communists too.

Its entirely probable that Urban invoked this law in an attempt to shut them down, effectively, and bring them back in under the one church's rule.

Its interesting stuff anyway. Oh yeah, this is what I've put together based on what I've read. I wasn't there :). Some of this could be wrong.
I'd like to hear any corrections or additions that anyone might have.

There's a lot of 'stuff' out there.

Best Regards,

Pete

[oldbhtrnewequip]

The prohibition of crossbows is the result of a 1940 Michigan Attorney General's opinion.
....

Excellent!!...do you have any sources?

Thanks,

Pete

[J Eberhart]

Michihunter

Sorry, but muzzleloader season is muzzleloader season not firearms season. Can I use a shotgun or high power during muzzleloader season, they fit the firearms definition in my dictionary.

[Michihunter]

Michihunter

Sorry, but muzzleloader season is muzzleloader season not firearms season. Can I use a shotgun or high power during muzzleloader season, they fit the firearms definition in my dictionary.In addition to being able to be used during firearm season a ML has its own season. Are you actually proposing that a crossbow be used both during the archery season as well as have it's own season? :confused:

[TOW]

Here is why the crossbows were not originally OKed for archery hunting in Georgia...

BTW - Georgia is in their 5th year of full inclsuion and the GADNR couldn't be happier. Every one just goes hunting and most could not care less what the other guy shoots and hunts with.

Much ado about nothing...

"Georgia Game Management Chief Todd Holbrook attended the meeting and told members that the original reason for not including crossbows as legal weapons during archery season was a perception that they were more powerful and accurate than normal bows and that regular bowhunters viewed them as unfair competition.

That perception, Holbrook said, is not supported by the facts, especially when crossbows are compared to modern compound bows. Crossbows, he said, require much more fine tuning and adjustment to maintain accuracy because the shorter bolts are not as stable in flight as longer arrows. Their effective range, he said, is equivalent to a compound bow — about 30 yards for most shooters, perhaps as much as 50 yards for a small number of experts."


.

[swoosh]

No it wasn't . You were referring to a buck I killed last year.
It was an incorrect example. Period.
One that was taken from a post, warped and spun to your advantage.
The "example " you stated never happened .



"Hell anyone can shoot a confused deer pushed out by a combine"

Ever tried it ? ;)

Done it:lol:

yes I warped it and spun it, it sucks does'nt it

[Thunderhead]

Done it:lol:

yes I warped it and spun it, it sucks does'nt it

No, not really. I've come to expect it from you guys.
Keep'er up.:lol: Really helps in the ole credibility dept. ;)

[swoosh]

No, not really. I've come to expect it from you guys.
Keep'er up.:lol: Really helps in the ole credibility dept. ;)

Yeah, LOL You guys are angles:lol: and right;)
The point seems to have gone over your head;)

[Thunderhead]

Yeah, LOL You guys are angles:lol: and right;)
The point seems to have gone over your head;)

As does most of the things you guys say...................I never claimed to be an angel, but at least I have the guts to say what I mean. I don't make up stories either.

I'm still waiting for that link.............

[Michihunter]

No, not really. I've come to expect it from you guys.


As does most of the things you guys say...................I never claimed to be an angel, but at least I have the guts to say what I mean. I don't make up stories either.
Could you please not generalize TH? I've tried real hard to be above board in most of my replies.

[Thunderhead]

I'll do one better. I'll post a fact. 1 we can all agree on.

Crossbows are not legal this year and it's really a waste of time going tit for tat on the subject.

I'll jump back in the fray next year and do eveything I can to keep it that way.
So, as of now the point is moot and the talk is getting tiresome and silly.

I'm happy. :)

Have a great bow season. ;)

[swoosh]

A link to what, LOL I already stated I warped and spun it. I never stated what I wrote happen.

It was example on how folks distort facts to help their agenda. If someone was on the anti combine task force they might turn a perfectly legal good kill(like yours) into something it's not.

Just like peolpe do with xbow/baiters/food plots etc. We have lost the ability to appreaciate a solid good kill in hunting. Some how, some way we have to bring folks down a level these days.

I really don't care how you or the man on the moon hunts. As long as it's legal.

[Thunderhead]

Could you please not generalize TH? I've tried real hard to be above board in most of my replies.

Sorry Micihunter. :)

[Thunderhead]

A link to what, LOL I already stated I warped and spun it. I never stated what I wrote happen.

It was example on how folks distort facts to help their agenda. If someone was on the anti combine task force they might turn a perfectly legal good kill(like yours) into something it's not.

Just like peolpe do with xbow/baiters/food plots etc. We have lost the ability to appreaciate a solid good kill in hunting. Some how, some way we have to bring folks down a level these days.

I really don't care how you or the man on the moon hunts. As long as it's legal.

That's cool and I respect that. :)
In all of my conversations concerning this subject, I've tried never to spin anything or be condesending. All that does is bring out the worst in all of us, and I know from being on these boards all these years that we are all good folks.

I just plain don't consider the crossbow a bow due to the cocked and locked deal. That's always been my position. I've never spun or distorted it.

I appreciate your position, all I ask it that you appreciate mine. :)

[swoosh]

That's cool and I respect that. :)
In all of my conversations concerning this subject, I've tried never to spin anything or be condesending. All that does is bring out the worst in all of us, and I know from being on these boards all these years that we are all good folks.

I just plain don't consider the crossbow a bow due to the cocked and locked deal. That's always been my position. I've never spun or distorted it.

I appreciate your position, all I ask it that you appreciate mine. :)

I do:)

Folks when you state x-bow is not hunting, you are slamming someone's method of hunting, and it hurts. Some guys just want to get out and hunt, I hope we can all support them the best way we can.

[oldbhtrnewequip]

Swoosh (god I like that name)

I respectfully disagree with you

In my phone conversations with Ohio dealers (and I called several), their bow season is now a crossbow season with about 60% of the hunters in the field toting crossbows.

By the way, although the dictionary defines a crossbow as a type of bow, our season is called bow season, not crossbow season. Similar to muzzleloader season being called muzzleloader season, not gun season even though they are a gun. Don't give me the, well you can use a muzzleloader during the gun season argument, because they were originally a much more inferior weapon than a shotgun prior to in-lines. I had the state record buck with a muzzleloader from 1981 until it got beat in 1986. Back then they used round balls and patches, look where they are today. They outperform shotguns by leaps and bounds.

Anyway, crossbows over the years in Ohio have wore many hunters down.

Picture this, There are four buddies that hunt together and one of them doesn't like to practice or put much of an effort into hunting an therefore he doesn't have the consistent success that his friends do. All of a sudden crossbows are legal and he buys one so that he doesn't have to practice at all. Now, with a shooting rail on his stand he can shoot deer at farther distances than his friends that work at being proficient with archery equipment. He immediately becomes the most proficient killer in the group of four.

No matter what anyone on this forum may think, hunting for most is an egotistical activity. Most everyone wants to kill the big buck. I shot a six point, well, I shot an eight point, I hear it all the time.

After a year or two of the (for lack of a better word) lazy hunter outdoing his buddies they convert as well, in order to take longer shot opportunities and stay competitive. Sure there are bow guys that are capable of 40 yard shots, but they are not the norm. Anybody with a good crossbow and a rest can shoot 40 to 50 yards effectively with no problem (again I have shot them so this fact is not up for discussion). This scenario has happened in Ohio and the amount of independant archery only pro shops that are still standing is the proof.

There are definitely hunters that do not fall into the egotistical or competitive category, but they are few.

I think that's what Riva might call the open face Oreo argument.

Tell me something.

You're suggesting that I should let anyone with an ego choose what I get to do, or not, and just take it quietly?

You couldn't find a better word than lazy?

[Riva]

That's cool and I respect that. :)
In all of my conversations concerning this subject, I've tried never to spin anything or be condescending. All that does is bring out the worst in all of us, and I know from being on these boards all these years that we are all good folks.

I just plain don't consider the crossbow a bow due to the cocked and locked deal. That's always been my position. I've never spun or distorted it.

I appreciate your position, all I ask it that you appreciate mine. :)

The fact that one doesn't consider a crossbow a bow is immaterial. It means nothing!

What is material and what means something, is the fact that you feel that since you do not consider it a bow, some other guy, totally unrelated to you, should be prevented from having a free choice in determining if they want to use a crossbow or not. Gimme a frick’n break! Oldbhtrnewequip just came up with, what I now consider, one of the most classic lines of all time, specifically: "You're suggesting that I should let anyone with an ego choose what I get to do, or not and just take it quietly?”

I 100% fully agree with that statement. We've watched the anti crossbow society control this agenda for decades now. They have prevailed because they (1) were organized and (2) any time even the hint of crossbow expansion emerged, they would shout and shout and shout and shout until the intended audience became numb and fearful of the issue.

Well, guess what? Other people can organize too, and have. And, it's my opinion that the powers that be have simply grown damn tired of all the meaningless shouting emanating from the anti crossbow society. I also believe the powers that be see through this 50-year facade and have determined that, at the end of the day; the real agenda is not so much about crossbows but rather, it's keeping others out of the woods so that they get first dibs on that big buck. (Ya know, sometime you just gotta call a spade a spade.)

Well anyways, that's all going to change with the help of the Michigan Senate (sorry, tell those folks that they can’t scream up there like they do at the NRC meetings). Full inclusion is going to happen, if not this year, then within the next two or three. To reiterate: when that occurs, you can still have your opinion that a crossbow is not a bow. The trouble is, those having that opinion will no longer be able to prevent the other guy from hunting in some tree half a mile away simply because his opinion regarding crossbows differs from yours. Thankfully, those dark, repressive days will soon be put to eternal rest.

[ridgewalker]

This has come a long way from the intent of the thread which was to discuss the idea that pain and effort do not define the legality of a hunting weapon. History and definitions have been given but in the end, while they may give background, they do not make something legal or illegal. While pain and effort may contribute to the experience of some hunters it has been sufficiently recognized that this alone does not make a thing legal or illegal. At the PRESENT time the NRC/DNR has stated that crossbows are a legal, legitimate archery weapon for some but not for others during all archery seasons. Until the Senate legislates differently that is where it is. Personally, I certainly hope that these new guidelines will leave no one outside looking in on the rest of the hunters enjoying the hunt. I will not hold my breath as I have seen very few written documents that did not leave for some loopholes.:dizzy:


________________________

No One Left Out = Full Inclusion

[Munsterlndr]

Excellent!!...do you have any sources?

Thanks,

Pete

I was in a hurry last night when I posted that information and left out a couple of other relevant dates regarding crossbows.

Pre 1937 - archery tackle not specifically addressed as being either legal or illegal to use while hunting deer.

1937 - Archery season enacted, crossbows not specifically prohibited.

1940 - Attorney General rules crossbows unlawful for hunting deer.

1947 - Legislature codifies the earlier attorney general opinion, crossbows not lawful for deer hunting.

1993 - Crossbows legalized for disabled, permit process put in place.

2001 - Crossbows legalized for use during firearms deer season.

Source;

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/DEER_REGULATION_HISTORY_210705_7.pdf


BTW, regarding the prohibition instigated by the 2nd Lateran council, you might find this thread mildly interesting.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244903&highlight=lateran+council

[Whit1]

Why don't you guys make a post concerning license costs and how low they are. It might get more traction than the same 15 guys complaining about something that has already been put to bed for this year.


John, where were you last year when the workgroup looking into the license fee situation proposed increases? These boards were full of threads on the topic. It was hashed, slashed, dashed, and mashed again and again.

This issue of crossbow inclusion is something completely different.

[Riva]

I was in a hurry last night when I posted that information and left out a couple of other relevant dates regarding crossbows.

Pre 1937 - archery tackle not specifically addressed as being either legal or illegal to use while hunting deer.

1937 - Archery season enacted, crossbows not specifically prohibited.

1940 - Attorney General rules crossbows unlawful for hunting deer.

1947 - Legislature codifies the earlier attorney general opinion, crossbows not lawful for deer hunting.

1993 - Crossbows legalized for disabled, permit process put in place.

2001 - Crossbows legalized for use during firearms deer season.

2008 - Medical criteria for disabled sportspersons rewritten

2009 - HB5741 H2 signed into law by Governor ;)

Source;

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/DEER_REGULATION_HISTORY_210705_7.pdf


BTW, regarding the prohibition instigated by the 2nd Lateran council, you might find this thread mildly interesting.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244903&highlight=lateran+council


add these 2